EP 65: Record Book Sheep, Moose, and Elk in Colorado with Mike Duplan

You can imagine hunting for a month and backpacking trips and having it finally come together. Tell us about some of these big old bull moose. There's no point system for the desert sheep for non-residents if you only have one pack. Anything to do with western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter here and Adam Bronson with the Epic Outdoors podcast. Got a pretty awesome guest on with us here again. We don't do doubles or at least we haven't for a while. But anyway, we do have Mike Duplant on with us. We talked about a lot of the different species within Colorado but really honed in on mule deer last time quite a bit. And anyway, today we're going to kind of go over a lot of sheep and moose and a little bit on goat elk, antelope. Maybe some more mule deer, of course, because we all like mule deer. But anyway, I'm super excited to dive into this. He's got a lot of experience over there. In regards to sheep and moose. And he's one of them rare guys that just absolutely lives for moose. You know, as well as sheep and deer too.

So, anyway, before we get started, I'd like to thank Under Armour for sponsoring these podcasts. All that we're doing here at Epic. Appreciate them and their support. And from there, we'll see if we can get him. Mike, you on? Good morning, gentlemen. How's it going over there? Oh, it's going good. Just had a little accident with the coffee in the microwave. I didn't know coffee could actually blow up. Ooh. Mine did. Wow. In a mug? And it just shattered or what? It just blew up all over the inside. The mug stayed intact. But it was the equivalent of trying to reheat a can of refried beans in the microwave. You know, those can just blow up and make a mouth good. I don't know how this cup of coffee did it. But I spent the last 10 minutes cleaning the microwave. What did you do? Just trying to liven up some coffee from yesterday or two or three days ago? Or what are you doing?

No, just from this morning. And I figured I'd get a little caffeine on board to keep up with you guys. Yeah. Well, I don't know if you can keep up with monsters. But, hey. I saw that case of white monsters on the counter of the kitchen there in your office. There was five cases and they're gone. It's pretty humbling when that happens because that's probably, you know, how many gallons that is. Well, all we know, Mike, is we have a tropical smoothie here in Utah. I don't know if you guys have those. But, anyway, they make like a little shake that's called antioxidant, yada, yada, yada. It just makes us feel a little bit better when we mix monster with tropical smoothies. I'm addicted to the purple monster. Oh, those are good. I'm a big fan of the white. Yeah. Yeah, it's got kind of the artsy, fartsy, light purple can. It's kind of textured like the white one is.

It's kind of feels good in your hand. Ultraviolet is the name of it. Ultraviolet. That's the one. So, all right, as we get started here, I just want to let everybody know this is Adam Bronson. His voice is a little messed up. Got a little too excited at his boys' ballgame. Yeah, I don't know what it was. You sound like it now. I'm feeling good. I sound way worse than I feel. So, how's that? It's good. It's good stuff. So, well, how's things going? How's the, first off, how's the weather over there? How are you guys faring this winter? You know, the skiers are crying their eyes out, but anybody that's a deer hunter is probably going to be happy because it's been the mildest winter in well over a decade, you know, decade and a half. And probably since the winter of 2001, 2002, but 2002 is when we had all the forest fires and the summer drought.

So, you know, that's not very exciting on that end, but we still have more snow than we had that year. Yeah. We've got, we've had a little rain out here. And, of course, every time it even looks like it's going to rain, we're on telecast, checking the radar, current, hitting the live animation, trying to see anything we can see. Yeah. If I turn on my windshield wipers on my truck, I tell Jason about, hey, I had to turn on my wipers today. It rained enough for me to turn on my wipers. Yeah. We looked at each other yesterday and started hitting us pretty good. And I'm like, well, that put on an extra basal point on four or five deer. Yeah. I don't think the drought affects the deer out here in Colorado as much as the desert climbs for sure. Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're definitely, you know, limited. Yeah. To, to rain and snow and everything else. But, all right, well, cool.

I guess another kind of little interesting topic you guys got. What's, what's up with the shed ban? They're not letting people pick up calcium on the ground or what's the deal? Yeah. It's kind of interesting because this is such a mild winter. You know, shed hunters would have very little impact at all. And it's kind of ironic that it happened to take place the year the ban is implemented. But last year was a pretty rough winter in a lot of places. And we've had, oh, three or four pretty rough winters in the last 10 or 10 years here. And shed hunting has just become so popular that I guess, you know, we make our own bed. And, you know, people were overdoing it in places and creating too much impact. And, you know, it's too bad that there has to be a blanket policy statewide west of I-25 as opposed to, you know,

it being a little more surgical and, you know, putting it in place in some of the winter areas that really require some protection, such as Gunnison Basin and the Eagle Valley and up here where I live in Middle Park. But I will say it's made an impact already that I can see that's noticeable. Just driving to Kremlin the other day, early in the morning, there's deer in places down close to the highway that typically they're not even in there right now because they just get bumped up from shed hunters. And it's become, you know, truly the last three, four, five years, it's just become incredibly popular with people. So, you know, I think it follows social media and, you know, the glamorization of it all. Oh, yeah. Browntown. Something had to be done, I think. Whitetown, browntown. Yeah. Chalktown. Chalktown. Chalktown. Pink Chalktown. Yeah. Well, that's it. Pinktown, too.

What's the, so what are they going to do to a guy if they catch him shed hunting? Are they going to take away his gun? And what are they going to do to him, do you know? No, they take away your birthday. You don't have your birthday the following year. No, I read up on it actually a little bit the other day. Apparently there's a $137 fine involved, but I think they can tack on some extra charges depending on how much you mouth off to them when they pull you over for collecting sheds. Yeah, unfortunately. I saw something on social media about somebody getting a $300 fine ticket because there was an elk shed with a radio transmitter that was on the side of the road and somebody picked it up and took it home. And then CPW showed up at their house. And I think, I'm a little skeptical on that right now, but we'll see. Whether that really happened like that, you mean? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

That's hilarious. Could you imagine? Game and Fish. Could you not notice a radio transmitter? Well, they can inject this little. Bore it in there, I guess. Yeah, they inject. And put a little Bondo over the hole. They inject the little tiny. Yeah, a GPS tracker, I guess, would be. Yeah. You know, probably. But, you know, the amount of effort that it would take to, you know, try to bust somebody for a $300. 18-year-old kid driving around out there in his Toyota pickup doesn't seem worth it. Oh, my gosh. That's hilarious. Well, that's kind of like doing these decoys, you know. You throw up a decoy and have a guy shoot a decoy, you know, from the road or whatever, how they try to set a guy up, I guess. Yeah. That's kind of a good idea. If they didn't do it, it's kind of a good idea. If you threw something on a fence, you know, say, like, just hanging off a fence,

great big old 350-inch bull or something, who's not going to take it? That's so unfair for some 14-inch kid. It's not. Might as well just have $200 bills just flapping in the window. They're tied to a balloon and see if somebody goes and picks it up. Oh, gee, I wonder if they could sell the shed to pay for the fine. I don't know.

Oh, that's hilarious. Well, they did that. Speaking of that, you know, Jason, Nevada did the same thing. I know. So Nevada, they banned shed hunting until May 1st. And they did it, like, within the legislature. But they did it, and it was like that day. All of a sudden, they come out on social media and tell everybody they can't shed hunt. And it's only within certain counties, which is what's hilarious about it. And they have no winter in Nevada, per se. The driest state in the nation. Yeah, and so, you know, to me, it just feels like, and I could be totally wrong, it feels like just a social law. You know what I mean? We just don't want Utah guys over here crushing our sheds. That's what it feels like. Yeah, I would not disagree with you at all. There's a piling on effect.

And, you know, I believe there's an altruistic reason behind all of it by the state biologists that they do want to have some protection for some of these animals on their winter range, which they actually do need. They do. But, you know, last year, I remember telling my wife, after driving up to Kremlin a few times, just, you know, every parking spot had a different pickup truck in it every day, you know, throughout April and March even. And, you know, the guys were getting earlier and earlier. And, you know, I remember pulling over and watching a buck last year, and there was a guy up on this point, and he was barking and howling like a coyote and trying to get these deer to spook and run. And I was just like, really kidding?

That would be some funny video to watch. Like, if you could video the guy just trying to make, quote, natural-sounding predator sounds to alarm deer to get them to stot up the mountain and drop their sheds or whatever. Yeah, exactly. And sometimes we'll do that to get something to move or stand up, you know, so we can shoot them. But I don't think – I never thought about that with sheds. So let's see what happens May 1st with – you know, one thing I think it would be neat is if they made shed hunters wear blaze orange so we can see how many there actually are out there. Oh. Out there on May 1st. Oh, that's hilarious. That'd be a good idea. Yeah. I haven't followed Colorado. Is it like at 8 a.m. or is it like 12.01 midnight? Right. Gunnison's got a time closure specifically for a sage-grouse mating season. So I can protect them in the morning when they're doing their dances. Yeah.

So there's that. I think it's 10 a.m. or something like that. But as far as I know, there wasn't a time restriction anywhere else. Well, let's talk about something that doesn't shed. Let's talk about sheep. I love talking about sheep. Yeah. Either that or we could talk about your pretty little Toyota that got crushed the other day. Ooh. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Is that still a good shot? What did you do? Were you running a deer down trying to get him to drop his antler? Yeah. Yeah. Something like that.

Just tooling down a county road and one just came boiling out of the ditch. It's one of those that just you had no choice. It just happened so fast I didn't even get to tap the brakes or jerk the steering wheel or anything. It was just boom, instant. And all those plastic parts on the front of a Tundra just absolutely explode when you hit a deer at 40. Oh, yeah. Jeez, man. That was a nice-looking little truck there for a minute. Yeah, it'll be good-looking again in about a month. But fortunately, it didn't push in the radiator or anything, so all that's intact. You can drive it. You can drive it. You can drive it. Yeah. I'd like to take a quick break and give a shout-out to Kinetrek for sponsoring this podcast. They make some incredible boots and do a great job. And so, anyway, if you're getting ready for some extreme hunt or just need a new set of boots, give them a try.

They've got summertime-type boots. They've got sheep-hunting-type boots. They've got about anything you need for any kind of condition you're going to be in. And so, anyway, you can learn more at www.kinetrek.com. That's K-E-N-E-T-R-E-K.com. Or you can call them at 1-800-232-6064. Give them a try. We'd like to thank the guys at King's Camo for sponsoring the podcast as well. They've got the XKG line layering system. L1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. And so, anyway, they've got a couple of different camel patterns. Super good guys. Anyway, you might try kingscamo.com backslash XKG-series or call them at 877-705-2266. Well, as Adam was talking about, maybe we'll dive into some of these sheep. We know you've been, you know, spending a lot of time following specific rams, killing, helping guys killing specific rams, the big rams. I know you're really good friends with Vic Clark.

And, of course, he killed a great ram. And you helped him a lot on that as far as, you know, just where to go and what to do. And just because you're right in the middle of it. And so, you know, with that application deadline coming up here April 3rd and, you know, kind of the absence of people having to front the fees, at least from a non-resident perspective, you know, there's definitely a lot more interest going to occur there and people applying. And so, you know, maybe start us off with, you know, your affiliation with sheep and kind of how you got going. I know you've killed, you know, a few rams yourself. And so, I don't know. Just start it off with that. Yeah, I drew my first tag in 2000 in S9 down in Sangre de Cristos. And, you know, I put in for that unit specifically just because I wanted to go sheep hunting. And I knew it was the easiest draw in the state for the most part.

And I had high hopes of killing a 180 ram, but I was squarely mistaken about it. Well, back then, there was, I don't know what's changed, but those sheep, it was, well, A, it's tough country. But it just, guys weren't doing that well clear back then. Oh, no.

It was a long process. I spent a fair amount of time scouting and, you know, it was just a complete learning curve for me on, you know, how to go about it. I talked to sheep hunters and, you know, I backpacked in there on some scouting troops by myself. And I had a guy that, you know, volunteered to go with me. He was a sheep nut from his family's experience drawing tags down there. His name is Scott Grumfield. Real nice guy. Just took upon himself to come along and help me out. Nice. And so we went into a spot and it was two days before the end of the season. And, you know, I think I'd been on multiple backpacking trips and hadn't had an opportunity yet. Had seen rams, but just blew them out or never got close or that kind of thing. And went into this spot and we're just going across this mountainside way up high at well over 12,000 feet. We were in Timber Lane.

It was quite a ways below us. And just going in through some rocky folds and I threw my binoculars up and I just saw a ram head. And I saw the circle on the side and the face and I ducked down and we looked back up and we couldn't see anything. I said, and this was like 500 yards away. I said, Scott, I swear to God, I just saw a ram's head. She said, oh, how many did you see? I said, I just saw the head and that's it. Just the head? I'm like, yeah, that's it. And so we sat there just kind of laying down in the rocks and watched. And about five minutes later, a group of rams started feeding out. And there was four of them and two solid, mature rams. One was a broomed off kind of flaring ram that was heavier based. And the other one, the one I took was really, really a dark ram. I mean, his body was just striking how dark he was. And he really stood out.

And he was seven eighths on the strong side. And, you know, I didn't care anything about score. It was just, you know, it was before the end of the season. Sure. So, you know, I basically started stalking in and just creeping along in the rocks. And they were, you know, doing the crab walk and, you know, just trying to stay out of sight because they were just a little too far. And finally got within range. And then the wind was cranking by then. And made the shot. And it was a little over 400 yards. And allowed for some wind drift and some cowboy range-finding technology. Back in the year 2000. Barely had primers back then. I mean, just made a... When did you get elevation? Pilgrim. 12,000 feet, too. That's a little different than, you know, shooting down there at the valley floor. Yeah. And he dropped.

And I literally jumped up on top of this rock and threw my arms in the air and just screamed. I was just so excited. It was, you know, you can imagine hunting for a month and backpacking trips and having it finally come together. Oh, yeah. That's pretty good. You know what it's like? It was a tremendous feeling. And, you know, I always... I think about it now. I kind of call it the moment. And, you know, when you put that much into something and you walk up on that animal and you put your hand on those bases of those rams. And it's just... It changes you forever. It really does. It's made me enjoy sheep hunting and want to go as much as anything out there. It's just, you know, I'm in the wrong tax bracket to do a lot, so... Yeah. Yeah. Like all of us. So, you know, that's partially why... It really fueled the fire in me. Yeah. And that's why, you know, you alluded to it earlier.

And as Jason did, you... You know, we hunt sheep vicariously through friends and others that we get to go with when they draw a tag or win a tag or whatever. And, you know, that for you was it. And, you know, talking just about the Colorado system there, you had to then sit out.

But you didn't. You could jump back in for desert sheep, right? Right. Starting the next year. So... With taking a sheep, you got to wait five years to put in again. So during that waiting period, we were a few years into our desert sheep management system and had a few token tags. And so you could put in for desert sheep during your waiting period. And, well, I think I was on year number four or five in the waiting period and I drew a desert sheep in 2004. Jeez. And... Which one did you draw? Which area? S-64 down by Cortez and Dolores. Yeah. Man, that's awesome. That's unbelievable. The luck you have is unbelievable. Yeah. I can't say it's anything but luck right there. That's just, you know, sheer dumb luck. So... Yeah, that sure is. I had high hopes of killing a really good ram and that area had gone through a die-off like the year before.

And there were very few older age class rams in there at that point. And, you know, I basically spent close to a month in there looking at the same sheep over and over and over. And I could never find anything over five years old. So I ended up taking one towards the end of the season was a ram I passed up a few different times. And another ram I passed up on opening day because he was standing on the side of the road and I didn't want to shoot a sheep on the side of the road. Yeah. Is that the one that's from Slick Rock down the river towards Paradox, that stretch of the river? Is that where you are? It was from Slick Rock back to the south towards McPhee Reservoir. Oh, that way. Yeah. And then that other unit was made a new unit. Yeah. And I think it's a little further... Yeah, the boundaries are... Changed since then. A little further north from Slick Rock, but that's a rough idea.

I know what you're talking. Yeah. Well, growing up there in Monticello, back to shed hunting. I used to shed hunt disappointment and all that. That's why the law was made. That was in however long ago. Utah guy coming to Colorado. Well, we couldn't get enough. Well, at the time, truthfully, we would hunt the heck out of Utah, but then our antler buyers... Right now, there's an antler buyer on about every other corner in southern Utah. They're everywhere. But back then, there weren't a lot. Cortez was the antler buyer back then. And so, we'd go over there on the day we were going to go to sell. We'd go hit disappointment and hunt all that country down there. And then, you know, swing into Cortez and unload and drive home with Benjamins. Well, a Benjamin. A couple, yeah. All right. So, all right. So, you killed your desert. Do you remember what he ended up scoring?

Or, obviously, like you said, you couldn't find one of those older rams, but... I don't remember exactly. It was around 150. Yeah. Yeah. Well, any desert's a trophy, and there's just... There is a lot of... It is. It's just such a bonus that Colorado even has desert sheep for, you know, the amount of real, true desert-type habitat you've got over there. Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's like comparing, you know, Colorado Desert is like a Missouri Breaks mule deer compared to a Colorado mule deer. Right. Right. You know, they just don't get that big here in the state. And I know Adam Black. Does that sound right, Adam? Yeah. His wife. His wife killed a tremendous ram in that unit. Yeah. She killed one about four or five years ago. I know Adam. He's from over here in Utah. Lives in Cortez now. But, yeah, they killed a great ram. They've killed a couple in that 56 unit out of Grand Junction, too.

When I say bigger, you know, low 170s, that's a big desert sheep. Yeah. And they've done well. But, yeah, for the limited habitat you guys have that sandwiched towards the Utah line, and, you know, it's unique, and it's great. You do have both. There's no point system for the desert sheep for nonresidents. You only have one tag, and it rotates among units. And you've got to choose. You can't apply for both. Yeah. And like you alluded, Mike, most people, if you got started, were probably doing Rockies and are invested in a point system and stick with that. It's probably what we'd recommend. The odds are far better than applying for just one tag, especially this year with that one desert tag. That's right. The odds are going to go through the roof for nonresidents. So, Mike, so did you, so, I mean, did that obviously got you cranking? I mean, were you helping anybody, guiding anybody?

How were you kind of, you know, getting your sheep fix on that? At that point, I was just, you know, I was trying to get a doll sheep. I ended up going, you know, on a couple of hunts up in Alaska with Steve Johnson and never had an opportunity. And, you know, that was a painful, that's a painful thing to be sitting at the Anchorage airport after an unsuccessful doll sheep hunt. When you have, you know, saved money and gone through all that, it's, that's probably the hardest part right there. But, you know, it's, I kept going and finally killed a ram with another outfitter, oh, 2007. And so that kind of scratched the itch for doll sheep a little bit, just enough to make me understand that I'd want to go about every year. Because that, to me, is the most classic spot and stock true hunting experience that a guy could imagine.

I mean, backpack doll sheep hunting, to me, is the pinnacle of North American big game hunting spot and stock. It's just an incredible experience. So that, and then I ended up winning the Colorado statewide raffle in 2009 for big horn sheep. That was a good nine-year stretch there. Four rams. Yeah. Three of them in Colorado. It's unbelievable. Yeah, three Colorado rams from 2000 to 2009. So tell us a little, I guess we just might as well dive into the story on that one. I mean, freaking phenomenal ram. A good friend of mine had won the raffle the year before, so I spent some time helping him. And just, he ended up taking a ram in, I don't know, it was late November, I think, down in S-51. And a nice boon and crock at ram, I think it was 181, 182, something like that. And so I wasn't actually with him when he got it, but I spent some time looking at sheep

and we talked a lot about the whole experience. And then when I won the raffle the next year, I had a good source of information. And John's the kind of guy that does a lot of homework and gathers a lot of information. And then he keeps it and organizes it. And it's, so I had basically tapped into his information. And I had another friend that, he's an older gentleman from Durango area, his name's George Vandenberg, and him and I became friends. And he is so enamored with sheep. He's a pilot also. He just goes up flying and looking at sheep just for the heck of it. And so that year at the banquet, at the dinner, right after I won the tag, I'm sitting at the table with George and he starts telling me about this ram that he saw in 51 from the air the year before. So this is the year before I'd even won the tag.

And he just, you know, was describing this thing and he said it was the most beautiful ram he's ever seen. He said, you could just see those, the horns coming all the way around and cranking up. And he said, he just looked like he was right out of Alberta. And so he said, you need to hunt for that ram, Mike. And I'm like, well, okay. So you took your entire paycheck for the next 12 months and put them to award raffle tickets.

I want to know how many tickets you bought, but I won't ask you. I drew, or I bought eight tickets. Oh, good. And I won on my number six out of eight. There you go. All right. So anyway, George drew a tag that year too. A regular state tag? In the same unit? The state tag. And this is interesting. It's when he was a board member for, I don't know if he's a board member for the Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society or he was on the Wildlife Commission because he basically has done both on the State Wildlife Commission. But they introduced sheep back into this unit in north of Durango. And he was partially responsible for reestablishing that herd. And they ended up drawing the tag. And I think the first year the tag became available. And so he's at the tail end of his sheep hunting career. And so I basically said, well, I'm going to go with you and your sheep hunt.

I'm not even going to worry about mine for right now. And so I ended up going with George. And we found one of the original rams that were reintroduced in there as a lamb. And he still had an ear tag. And I can't remember. I think he was number 22 or 21, one of that. But at any rate, they winded us. And George missed. And then I had to go home. But George ended up seeing another ram later. And he thought it was him. And he ended up shooting this other ram because he had a red ear tag also. And it was a mistake. And he killed the wrong one. But long story short, that ram ended up getting lion killed later. And a lion hunter found him a few years later. And he was over 180 net still, even after laying there for a couple years. Wow. So that would have been a tremendous story for George to kind of complete that circle. But it just didn't work.

Then I had another friend draw an S9 tag the same year. And I went with him on a backpack trip into the Sangreys. And went back to the spot where I killed my ram. We didn't see anything. But I was just interested in helping other people that year, too. And I figured one thing I did is I said that I'm not going to hunt during the regular seasons. I figured I had the raffle tag. And I can hunt after everybody else is done. And so I actually made that promise to myself and told it to a few others that I was not going to compete with the statewide tag holders. Or the state tag holders. Yeah. That's cool. So I was waiting. So, you know, and I got to kind of scratch the itch by going with a couple other people. So did your buddy end up killing a ram in S9 that year? No, he did not. No. That's a tough place to find and kill a ram. It's just... The statistics are pretty good on it now.

At least the ram sizes. They are. Yeah. I think it shows that some of the guys that are trying to draw that tag are putting some effort into it. So it's a really tough unit to hunt because there's not a lot of water up above timberline. Yeah. So you're going to have to pack all your water up high. Jeez. Well, and I think, you know, sheep are more prone to this than anything. They can, over a 10-year thing, they can go from the highest high to the worst unit in the state. Yeah, we've seen that a lot of places. And I'm not saying that's happened there, but you know what I mean. Like... It just feels like... 17 years or 18 years ago since you were there, geez, it could have turned two full circles and come back. Oh, yeah. The tag numbers are halved from when I drew a tag. Well, and they've been saying that some of these backpackers have been displacing sheep, moving them around a little bit.

And I don't know. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? No, that happens for sure because, you know, any place where there's lakes up there, there's water and people backpack to the lakes. And almost every lake up there has got a trailhead to it. So, naturally, the backpackers are going to go to the lakes. Are you seeing any big bucks up there? In S9? Yeah. No, it's... You know, there's some nice bucks, but what I consider big, that would be very, very low on my list of places to go. Really? Yeah. All right. Thought we might have had some 35-inch, 8x8, triple igards, 35-wide or something, you know? No.

I mean, if you find one up there, more power to you. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Back to your ram. So, November or late October, whenever it comes, and you're like, all right, it's time for me to get my game on. Let's go. Yep. So, I started going down to S51 and seeing rams and passing up rams, but never finding the one I really wanted to kill. And one of the problems with that unit is the spine of the ridge is the border of the unit. So, you know, you can imagine a mountain range where you can only hunt one side of it. And then the mountain range on the south end of it is all private. So, not only can you hunt just one side of it, but only you can hunt the basically northeast corridor of the whole unit. They don't let hunting on the private or at least public? Well, they do if you get a checkbook. Yeah.

There's a new Bighorn Sheep Access Program that they're allowing these landowners to have some tags. Okay. The Solterra, the Hill Ranch, the Bacon Trenchera, I think they're in the Ranching for Wildlife Program, but I think they're BGAP now also. But they're all getting tags and they're able to sell them. So, same sheep as 51, but, you know, they just, you know, sheep obviously don't know the boundaries, so they just go where they want to go. So, later on in the year, the rams are smart enough. They stay down onto the private for the most part. But later on in the year, when there's lots of ewes up there in public, the rams will start moving around looking for ewes. And so, I kept hoping and waiting and watching and looking. And finally, on December 1st, I saw the ram I wanted. And he was on private when I saw him, and he walked over onto public.

And it was a solid 100 yards over onto public. And at the point, I was thinking, it's too far to go, and I thought, you've been waiting the whole season for this. Just go. And so, I did. And later that afternoon, I snuck around and made the stock and ended up getting within range and dropped him. And this was 100 yards, just 100 yards, like by fence or whatever? You knew he was on public? No, it's just which way the water drains, the spine of the ridge. Okay. Yeah. So, there's no markings, no fence, no anything. You just have to be cognizant of how the unit boundary is set up. So, you went over there, and he hadn't moved much or very little or whatever? Well, they laid down all afternoon, and then they got up and started feeding. And I scooted around them from below and came up around the other side and just peeked over a ridge, and there they were. Same ram? George saw, you figure?

Well, it's as he described it. I'm not saying there couldn't be another one like it, but, you know, it's hard to say. But, you know, he's just a skosh under 40 inches long, and he's broomed, and he comes all the way around, and he's got the look that George described. Oh, yeah, he does. It's possible. It's entirely possible there's another ram like that in there, too. What did he end up going? 182. Man, pretty awesome. What an awesome ram. Yeah, what a tremendous feeling that was. You know, the neat thing about him, he's really atypical for a lot of Colorado bighorns. We generally have some rams that don't ever make full curl no matter what. And, you know, they're just kind of the classic three-quarter curl, 165 rams. That's a pretty typical ram in Colorado.

And so when you have one that makes a full wrap and then some, and, you know, I think there's less than 50 bighorn sheep that have made Boone and Crockett all the time from Colorado. Yeah, what would you, I mean, and I know this is a little bit different. You're talking about S51, which for draw hunters is a resident-only unit. And then, obviously, you had your raffle tag that you allowed you to hunt anywhere, you know, later. But, you know, from a non-resident perspective, you know, we don't, I don't know that you'd really say there's a bona fide unit. Maybe in the right year, S33 or 21, maybe you kill a book ram. But really, you're looking at 160 to 175 rams, aren't you, for the most people? Exactly, yeah. Yeah, it's just a completely unrealistic expectation for, you know, any of the non-resident units to think that you're going to go in there and scout and find and kill a book ram.

It's just, you know, those ram, those units just don't produce a lot of Boone and Crockett sheep. And I think in 2013, when I helped my buddy Jeff Damoski with his statewide auction tag, he killed a 33 ram and was 11 years old. And he was right at 180, and it was one of the biggest rams ever to come out of the San Juan mountain range. Yep. Yeah. I think there's only one or two bighorns netted in the south of the San Juans more than that ram all time. And so the San Juans just don't produce book sheep for the most part. So it's not an expectation a non-resident applicant could have. You just hope to kill an old ram. I think that's, regardless of score, if you kill a 10-year-old ram, you've done something special. Yeah, try to view it like a Wyoming or something.

I mean, they do, Wyoming has a lot of sheep in some of the units, and they do kill a few book rams, but it's, for the most part, view it the same way. Mature old ram, it's going to be 165. Or like Idaho or, you know, just some of these places. It's not, it's just not Montana. Nope. Or New Mexico. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, cool. And so what year was that? And then bring us up to date, what you've been doing since then. 2009. And so since then, my buddy Jeff Domoski and his wife have purchased three different statewide auction tags. So I went along with Jeff on all three hunts with me and him and his wife, obviously, for the one when she decided that she wanted to be a part of it, too. And then, so I was a part of all three of those rams.

And probably, you know, regardless of anything else, the most exciting one was certainly the one that he got down there in the San Juans just because, you know, it's not the highest scoring ram he's ever killed. But, you know, the degree of difficulty and just the country that ram came from is just so impressive and incredible. But, you know, there's a lot of bonus points for that, even though they don't count for anything.

Jan's ram was one that I had watched for a few years and photographed. And so fortunately, he was in a place where, you know, he's surrounded by some county open space park lamb, but there's also a private ranch that had a hunting lease to it. And then through a friend of a friend, we found out that this ram was spotted by some elk hunters up on the ranch. And so we went up there and we ended up finding him. And Jan took him and he had a big chunk out of the back of one side. But even at that, he still netted 183. And he would have been 185 without the chunk. But, you know, just a tremendous old ram. And he was 13 years old. It was incredible. That is incredible. Get a bighorn that age. Yeah. Yeah. That is incredible. Yeah. So that was one.

And then this year, I know the guy that bought the state auction tag, Jerry Terrell from Washington State, he had hired an outfitter on the Western Slope, James Zeldon. I might be mispronouncing that. But so they had looked all over for a ram. And I knew of this other ram in the same area that Jan had taken hers. And we'd actually looked for him a few times with Jeff and when he had his tags. And this year with Victor Clark, another friend of mine who won the raffle, we looked for this ram. I called him Big Larry. And only because back years ago when I found these three mature rams together, I called him Larry, Moe, and Curly just simply. It was a way of telling them apart, you know. Yeah. So the smallest ram was a tight-curled ram, kind of like my sheep. And I called him Curly just because he had the most curled. Yeah. And Big Larry, he was a hammer-headed big old ram.

And he just seemed to be bigger in the head and body than the rest of them. Yeah. And so there's no reason or rhyme for giving him the names, but I just gave him those names. That's true. And so Curly died of old age and disappeared. I got pictures of him a few years back, his last spring. And I wish I would have known where he would have disappeared to, but never could turn him up. And so Jan killed Moe, and I think that was 2015. And then this year we'd been unable to find Larry every time we'd looked for him. And so finally he just happened to be there one day, and I called up James. I said, hey, I don't know if you guys want to do this or not, but he's up on this private ranch, and here's what the landowner charges. And if you want to do this, let me know, and I'd be more than happy to go along with you. Sure. Sure.

So we did, and a few days later we ended up completing that circle too. And so, you know, Larry grew so little the last few years. You know, his age rings were literally as small as you can imagine on a sheep. And near as I could tell from photographs, I think he was 15. No way. That's unbelievable. It truly is. And so, you know, the photographic evidence that I've got for a few years back, I've been taking pictures of these rams for, you know, five, six, seven years. And so that's the best way for me to, you know, tell for sure because looking at the rings themselves. But I will give one Division of Wildlife Biologist credit because he looked at the ram, and the one guy aged it at 11, and one Jerry checked it in, and the other guy said, I bet he's 14 or 15. Wow. So it's not often you have guys go ahead on a limb like that and put a number like that on a sheep. No. Yeah.

What did that ram end up scoring at 15? He was 183. Wow. That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, he's a little over 39 long. I think he was 39 and a quarter, something like that. And then I spent a lot of time with Victor Clark this year. Yeah. He's a good guy. Yeah. He drew that raffle tag out there. He did. He won the statewide raffle, and I called him that night on the phone as soon as they announced his name. And I actually called his cell, and he didn't answer, and then I called the house line, and he knew the raffle was that night. And so he thought I was messing with him when I told him he won. And so that was a pretty exciting thing to be able to break Victor the news on that. Yeah, that's one of those things that you don't mess around with. No. No. No. No. No, I just, I don't play those kind of jokes. Oh, you do.

After I left the banquet that night, it's over an hour and a half driving home to my house, and I spent the whole time on the phone with Victor. He just, he was just wearing tight that night. Well, he's the guy, he's the kind of guy, I mean, he's retired, and he can go do some things, and he loves sheep. And he's the kind of guy, you know, go over there, rent a house, he's going to spend everything he's got on that tax. Yes. That's what was really cool about that. Do you know, I don't remember how much time he said he spent, but it was, I don't know. Between travel and hunting and scouting. Yeah. It was 50-something days between travel, scouting, and hunting. So, I was obviously not with him on the travel, but, you know, I did the math on the time we spent together, and it was well over 30 days over the period of, you know, five months, I think.

Well, and he gives you credit for it any time I talk to him, as far as, you know, just would not have been able to really, you know, cover the country and the rams and everything, and where to go and all that without your help. Well, I wouldn't be able to do it without the job I have, and also an understanding wife that knew how special it was for me to have a friend like that draw it. You know, I really thoroughly enjoyed all the time we spent together. You know, the hunt itself, the final part of killing the ram was, you know, that was completing the circle. But, you know, we had so many days in units down all around the state, and just spending time up above in the alpine and spotting rams at long distances and getting caught in thunderstorms and all that. And, you know, Victor and I became even closer friends after that. It was, and he appreciated every minute of it.

It was truly a rare experience that you get to spend that much time with somebody trying to help them fulfill their dream. And, you know, it was just a great time. So, when you get a tag like that, is there just, you know, three or four units that you're concentrating on? Is it rams that you're looking for from prior years, or are you following them? I mean, obviously you're following a few, but, you know, kind of like we do mule deer. But how do you, what's your plan of attack on those? You just don't close any information doors. I mean, there's people that are willing to tell you stuff. And, you know, some people have a tendency to exaggerate, and, you know, they also don't know what they're looking at. They see, you know, they talk about seeing a giant ram that was full curl. And, you know, there's, you know, 160-inch rams that are full curl.

So, most people don't really have a good idea what they're looking at. Yeah. Any help you get. They won't put their heads on any. Yeah. Curl and a half. All right. I saw one. There's a curl and a half. You don't curl at any doors. I've heard dozens of times, cowboys. You know, there's a curl, and he comes around and comes around again halfway. Yeah. I mean, you're right.

Okay. Just go give her luck. The most important thing is time, though. You know, it's just like with anything in hunting. You've got to have the time and be able to commit the time. And it's a difficult thing for, you know, if you won the raffle and you're, you know, an average Joe guy with a 40-hour-a-week job, that's going to be tough. But, fortunately, you've got, you know, five months to do it. Yeah. Well, I think, Vic, I think he walked away from that ram and went home, back to Nevada. Well, yeah, that's a ram I photographed last year. And so another friend of mine sent me a picture of him, and so I knew he was back at that point. And it was pre-rut. You know, the rams are starting to gather. And so last year, I figured he was, you know, 35, 36 long. And, you know, between 15 and 16 on the base, I just didn't think he was going to break 16.

And, you know, I just thought he was a real nice ram in the 170s. And we looked at him, and, you know, I still could not guarantee he'd go over 180. And I'm like, you know, I think it's really important, Victor. I said, there's no other season right now, nobody really to compete with other than the statewide auction hunter. And I said that I felt like he should be absolutely positive when he pulls that trigger. And, you know, I'm okay with whatever he decided to do. But, you know, we were him and on about it at that point, too. And, you know, we had some input from some other people on what the ram might score and everything. And, you know, it's not all about score, but, you know, I think it's a good goal to have if you have that tag to kill a Boone and Crockett net ram. So if he's not that, he better be something else. Yeah.

So, you know, he got home, and I think he was there for two days and turned around and came back. I know. That's a long drive each way. But Vic's walked away from a lot of big stuff, and he frustrates a few people here and there. He's willing to hold out on. Oh, yeah. He'll eat the tag. He'd probably eat that tag if he didn't see the right ram. Yeah, I wouldn't have let him do that.

He said that. I said, that's not going to happen, man.

Yeah. I can promise you that's not going to happen. So he drives home to Nevada, then drives back, and the ram's basically in the same place, isn't he? Oh, roughly, yeah. I mean, he's on the same mountain. Yeah. So not too far away. And Victor Trujillo kicked out of work for a couple days and hopped along. And so he came along and filmed it. And it just so happens that, you know, fortunately he wasn't standing off the side of the road anymore. He'd moved up onto this mountain. And I didn't want it to be too easy. It's just not supposed to be that way in my mind. So, yeah, he got up there in this really thick cedar-covered mountain with some dug fur on it. And we were watching him. And it was in the evening. And I said, you know, they're not going to go anywhere overnight. We just need to make this happen tomorrow.

I said, that's just crazy to want to go up on that mountain right now just before dark and try to kill a ram. I said, let's wait for the morning. So we did. And he was, you know, within 50 yards. But they're in the timber at this point. They're in and out of some really thick, deep, rocky, timber-covered stuff. We'd lose him. And he was with a U. And he was running around. And so he left the U's at that point. And all of a sudden, he's just moving. And we lost track of him. And then I spotted him going across a rocky chute and ran back to tell those guys I saw him and lost him again. And we were just watching for probably 20 minutes. And all of a sudden, he's at the very top of the mountain on top of this rock peering down. And it was one of the most incredible things I've ever seen. This thing skyline against the blue sky on top of this rock pinnacle.

And luckily, Victor was, Treveo was along. And he got some video of it. So, you know, we'll always be able to look at that part. But it was just such an incredible sight. And there were some other used bohem. He came down and worked his way into those. And a little while later, Victor made the shot. And even at that, you know, I thought, man, he's just right there at 180. And I'm not so sure about it. Yeah. I said, but, you know, he's big enough. And you want him. He's got a dark cape. He's beautiful. And so he made the shot. And the ram tumbled down a little ways. And he came to rest with his head facing us and up on a rock. And I was looking at him through the spotting scope. And I thought, at that moment right there, at that look, I thought, that's a 185 ram. Jeez. And sure enough. And you're like, right? Yeah.

So he ended up being, I think he was 39 and 5 eighths long and over 16 inch bases. And he really fooled us. And we kind of figured out finally why it was. And his eye to nose measurement was basically nine inches. And that's a pretty long head on a bighorn. And so when you have that really long face, long head like that, it's going to make their horns look smaller. Proportionately, they don't look right. Yep. Yeah. Jeez. And so he's looking at you straight on, you know. Yeah. Unbelievable. That's awesome. It's a learning curve. And, you know, he didn't have a bad angle on him either. That's one thing when you're looking for big sheep, you know, their bases, their backs, the side, all of it looked good on the mast. And so when you have a ram like that that doesn't have a bad look to him at all, you know he's over 16. Probably shoot. Yeah. Over 16 and over 39, not quite 40.

So what do you got? Well, all right. When I draw that tag this year, is there anything left?

Bronson. Are all your big rams, Larry Curly Moe, they're dead? I mean. Larry Curly Moe are all dead. Yeah. That's what I mean. Is there anything left? You're going to have to work, Bronson. Or should I sit out the raffle? What are you telling me to do here? It's a one-way play. You've got to be in it to win it. I'd like to take a quick break to thank sponsors of this podcast, Red Rock Precision. We've got their rifles. They're shooting awesome. They do have the Epic Series rifle. It's a limited edition long-range rifle. This thing's awesome. The foreplate of the rifle is engraved with our logo. It's a numbered series. There's only 50 of them. And so it's a first-come, first-served. So anyway, call these guys at Red Rock or visit them on their website. It's www.redrockprecision.com or you can call them 801-391-7840. I'd also like to thank Kent's Optics.

They've got some of the lowest prices I've ever seen in optics. They'll definitely work with guys. Really good guys. I can call them from the field. They'll ship stuff out to me. No problem. They've got an incredible inventory of optics. And so give those guys a call as well. It's 435-257-7014 or kent'soptics.com. Give them a chance to earn your business. You won't be disappointed. Tell us about some of these big old bull moose. Once in a while you throw a photo to us. And anyway. How'd you get that? You know, most people love big mule deer. Sheep, you can't even keep up with anything else. Well, he kills a big deer, walks away, doesn't hunt him anymore. Then he kills a big ram, walks away, wants to hunt him some more. He killed three in like nine years. Now he's on the moose. I don't know. Actually, I'm done with moose now. Are you? No. Too many moose quarters on your back.

No, I drew a moose tag in 2014 here in the county in which I live. And so, you know, I started. That day I found out I drew my moose tag. This is one of the craziest parts of this whole story. I took my dog for a walk up this Forest Service trail. And I'm walking up into this open meadow with a band of willows going down the creek bottom. And as I just crested into this meadow kind of going uphill, I saw something ahead underneath these aspens that looked like tines sticking out of the grass. And so the roll of the hill kind of got in the way as you, because I continued to follow the trail. But, you know, I saw what looked like antlers to me at about 100 yards. But I veered off the trail, went over this little hump, and here's two moose antlers laying together right next to the willows. Like, literally on top of each other.

Like, the bull stood up and the antlers fell off his head on top of each other. When I say on top of each other, like, they were actually on top of each other. Either that or some granola head found them and stashed them there. That's probably what happened. It never came back. I'll put these in a pile because this is, you know, maybe they thought they couldn't take them. Maybe it was during the shed hunting rule. I don't know. I don't know. But they were laying there, and I took them home. And long story short, I ended up killing that moose a few months later. Yes. So it was quite the journey along the way, though. There's a lot of moose in this county and a lot of places to look. And these bulls go up into the high alpine in the summer, and they spend their time right on the edge of timberline. Isn't that crazy? It's crazy. It is crazy.

And it was really fun spending that summer hiking and exploring all over places. I'd never even been in the county here before. And so it was, you know, along the way, I found a moose in my scouting trip that I really wanted. That was the one I was after. And I found him, and then he moved over the Continental Divide. As soon as he was over the Continental Divide, he's into the next unit. These dang ridge tops seems like a recurring theme with you. It is. So I spent a lot of time watching this moose. I figured he was over on my side once, and maybe he'll come back over again. And watched him all through August and didn't spend a lot of time looking anywhere else because this moose that I found was easily over 190. And, you know, I was just, you know, as big of a Shire's moose as you can imagine. Yeah. So I called him Yukon Jack just simply because he looked like a Alaska Yukon moose.

Jeez. And I ended up never finding him again after he rubbed his velvet on September 6th, and that next day he was gone. And so he had never come back to my unit. Kind of like elk can do when they get thinking of rutting and drifting to where they want to rut and where they've lived all year long. They're gone. Yeah. So I spent over a week looking for him during the season when the season opened, and I still had never found him. So we got a 14-day rifle season for moose, and when you burn a week and, you know, all of a sudden, you know, it's a ticking clock. And it's – Yeah. So I think it was on October 9th I called a friend of mine, and I said, and this moose that I found the sheds off of, another guy I knew got a picture of him the year before in cow elk season in October. And I reasoned since it was October 9th and the rut was winding down that maybe he goes back to the same spot Yeah.

and hangs out post-rut. And when you – when those moose flip a switch, the rut is over. I mean, it is just gone there. They are completely worn out from over a month of walking and rutting. And so we went up into this spot and set up, and this friend of mine has drawn four Shiras tags in four different states. His name is Bill McEwen. And really good guy. He's got moose fever. And so he elected to come along. And so he starts doing a cow elk in heat call right next to this kind of swampy area. And all of a sudden we hear branches breaking. And, you know, this moose just had gotten up out of his bed, and here's Bill calling. And he's just coming out like he's on a string. And then I see his antlers in the willows, and he's rocking it back and forth in the rutting walk posture. And he comes across the swamp, and I'm not going to shoot him out in the swamp for obvious reasons. Yeah.

Well, maybe for a novice moose hunter, what would that obvious reason be? The obvious reason is you don't want to cut up a moose in a swamp. Okay. Just needed that said, because some people might be scratching their head. You get a blow up right now. In the swamp, they might be thinking, I just can wash your blood off off your hands. I mean, they might be thinking, that sounds like a good, nice, clean place. Don't shoot a moose in a lake if you can't help it. You don't shoot one in a river. No. You don't shoot one in a swamp. No. So you do everything you can not to shoot a moose in a miserable place to cut one. If they turn and head forwards water, you keep shooting fast. Yes.

Jeez. Get your drivers and have them drive them back.

Spinal. Yeah, so at that point, I told Bill to scoot on over to the right, and he went over just to, because the moose was coming right at us. And so Bill went back about 30 yards in the trees and kept calling, and the moose changed direction just enough so he wasn't coming right at us. I mean, their hearing is so incredible, they just can pinpoint you exactly where you're at. Yeah. You know, there is nothing at all like a moose's hearing, in my opinion. They can hear like no other animal. So he keeps coming, he's coming right across the swamp, and then he comes out of the swamp, and he's into the lodgepole, and he's going to come by me at maybe 10, 12 yards. And as he is, I'm like, I'm just going to shoot him right in the neck and drop him right there. And so I did, and he turns around and runs back out into the swamp. Come on. What are you using? What are you using? Probably a .243.

A .45 pound? A .284. Oh, geez. Wow. It doesn't matter what you got. I mean, I was planning on spining him right there. I mean, he's, you know, 25 feet away, I didn't think, but I probably shot high, you know. His spine is. And runs for the swamp, dies in the swamp. Yeah, and then I just shot him again and piled him up right in the swamp. Oh, geez. So you found out. Fortunately, it wasn't really, it was only about a foot deep where we were at. Oh, okay. It wasn't. Good. What's the, what do you think the pros and cons are of that archery opening, you know, September 8th versus, you know, muzzle, and then, you know, obviously kind of coincides there, but then you got the rifle October 1st. So what do you think the pros and cons are? When are they shedding velvet, things like that? Well, Colorado's moose system is different than any other of their tag draws.

So you put in for a unit and a season, whether it's archery, muzzleload, or moose, and they're just pulling up your name in whatever season you've chosen, they give you the tag for. And you can trade. You can trade it in. After the fact. You can. For a different season. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, for some reason, I think that'll come to an end at some point. I think, I think they're just going to think, well, we shouldn't do that. That's, that's just. It is. It's odd. It is odd. It's nothing wrong with it, but it is like, why did they think of that? Yeah. It's a little. I don't know. It's way out. I'm skeptical that that's going to last forever. Yeah. So maybe it will, but, you know, the seasons are tough. You know, archery starts, it doesn't start when the deer and elk archery season starts. It starts in September.

So if it did, you, if it did, you could probably hunt those bulls you've been watching. That's what I was wondering. You pick the bull before he goes to rut. Before he moves. When does he move? You know what I mean? Yep. There'd be some giant bulls killed with archery. There's, there already has been, but, you know, every year guys will pattern bulls and watch them. And all of a sudden, two, three days before the archery season opens, they just disappear. Okay. So that's why you didn't go archery. I mean, you're figuring they move. Oh, no. I, I, I was shooting a bow and I was planning on killing him. Well, no, he, where he was, I couldn't, but I'm assuming he was going to move around then. Yeah. You know, I, it just didn't work out because for one, he disappeared. Number two, he, he was in the wrong unit at that point. So I couldn't hunt that big mess. Okay.

But, you know, I, I was shooting a bow. I was ready for it if it happened. And so, you know, I had drawn a rifle tag and my plan was to trade in my, uh, my, my, uh, rifle tag for archery if it worked out that way. And, and same thing with muzzleloader, if that came on and, you know, if I ended, even if I ended up finding them with only two, three days left in muzzleloader season, I, I would have been tempted to run right down there and trade it in. Cause when you find them, they're going to be there usually for just a day or two. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, that's a, it just didn't work out, but for the hunter to choose, I mean, just because it's a rifle season doesn't mean you can't hunt with a bow. Right. So there's nothing wrong with that at all. Just dates. Moose are kind of meant to hunt with a bow in a lot of ways, you know?

And so you just, it's season dates and differences of moose movements and rut and all that. Yeah. I was just wondering, like when it opened September 8th with, with archery equipment versus your, you know, rifle October 1st date, you know, if they're moving, I mean, obviously you found this bull move just prior to September 8th or, or if there's a date they usually shed, shed their velvet and move or. Well, the two years in a row, this bull moved on the same exact day, September 6th. Wow. So that, that was, uh, there's something to be said for that. Yeah. Yeah. There's a thing about these moose and, and they're very, uh, much creatures of habit from a calendar standpoint. And, you know, I've heard the, the term philopatric and, and there's a lot to be said for knowing what they're going to do when and how to hunt them at that point.

But, uh, you know, this, uh, this season structure is, you know, I would say if you've got the time, archery is probably the best chance of killing a really big bull, but they are moving a lot then. And, you know, and, and, you know, I've, I've talked about the season structure with, uh, uh, the state big game manager, Andy Holland. And so I, I kind of complained to him about it. I said, I just don't think it's the greatest season structure. And there's no reason for these dates to be so short. And he says, well, if you look at our harvest statistics, guys are only hunting two or three days to fill their moose tags. I said, that's because they panic. And he says, well, what do you mean by that? I said, they draw these tags and they scout moose and they find them and they watch them all summer. And all of a sudden they disappeared.

It's like, at that point, you've got your once in a lifetime moose tag and you can't find the big bulls you've been looking for. And you don't want to go home empty handed and people are going to shoot the first decent moose they see. Yeah. And I still think that's, there's, that's what happens more often than not. Yeah. That's, but, but, you know, if you want to hunt a specific moose that you scout, like we're kind of programmed that way on our sheep or our deer is that work all summer long, you find, and you want to, now you're, you're, you've got probably a week or maybe 10 days too late of an opening day to really hunt the bull you watched all summer. Open the archery in August. Why not? August 25th or 7th or 8th or whenever the regular stuff opens. It'd probably be, it'd be a no brainer in your mind if they did that, wouldn't it? What season you would personally want.

Especially if you had time to scout. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's no reason to, they could have season dates for different weapons, but, you know, for a guy to draw that once in a lifetime tag, if he doesn't fill his tag in archery season, why can't he continue to hunt into the rifle? Well, especially if they're going to keep this same system of, we're just drawing out of a pool of permits and, you know, you're not going to exchange it, you know, after a hunt started because, yeah, you got your butt kicked with a bow and now you want to muzzle her. They're not going to do that, but why, it's all 20 permits issued. We're planning on 20 dead bulls, but we don't really care how and when. Here's a month. Go do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think this season should run three months on these because it's a once in a lifetime tag opportunity.

So, you know, there's, there's no reason for it not to be that way. Well, there's always going to be some big bulls, just the nature of the beast, you know what I mean? Sure. The thick, freaking timber. I mean, it's, it's not like mule deer. Hunt mule deer for three months, you know, even including the rut, you're going to have some, you're going to have a problem. You're going to kill them all, but no, it just doesn't seem like it'd be the case with the limited tag numbers and whatnot. Montana's got that season structure where it's a real long season, doesn't it? For Shires. Yeah. Yeah. Two and a half months. Yep. It does. Yeah. Talk to us a little bit about like, I mean, the Pope and Young, Muzzlewater World Records. I mean, haven't they come from, from your state? Well, that, that was the bull Yukon Jack that I had found during my scouting.

And so after I, after I killed my moose in my season, I went looking for him and, and then, and I was driving up this road to go look for him. And I come around a corner. There's two cows standing literally just off the road, 10 feet. I stop them looking at them and they're looking past me on the other side of the road. And I look out the window on the driver's side and here's Yukon Jack standing 10 feet off the road, coming out of the quake. He's on the other side. How far from where you saw him in the summer? The Alpine. Like how far, how far, how far did he move? Six, seven air miles. Okay. And down, like down lower in the. Yep. Yep. Down lower. Riparian bottom. Spruce, conifer, forest, and, uh, in a big willow drainage. Wow. What's the chances? Yeah. Wow. So I ended up, you know. Was that after all the seasons were over? Like, or was it right still at the end of the rifle hunt?

When was that? Yeah, it was just mid-October. Okay. Yeah. So, um, yeah, there was just, uh, I ended up taking about a hundred photos of them that morning. And, and, uh, so I've got some really good stuff on him with my photo gear. And so I told my buddy Bobby, I said, you need to put in for this unit next year. I said, that, that moose is a giant and, and he'd been putting in for North Park. And so, lo and behold, he, he draws a one out of 80 something odds and he draws the tags. How does that happen? Yeah.

Story gets better. Keep going. I told him, I told him that, uh, you know, we're, we're hunting for this moose and this moose alone. You're not killing any other moose. And so that summer we, I, we didn't start scouting until early August, which I think it's kind of a waste of time until then. And so he, uh, we went right back up to where I'd seen him the year before. In the neighboring unit and that high alpine stuff you're talking to Nate. So he's out, he was scouting in the unit. He doesn't even have a tag for just seeing how did this bull, what does he look like? Grow. What's he look like? Yeah. What does he look like? Well, that's what I mean. How did he change? Did he get bigger? Did he shrink from the, yeah, he got a little bit bigger, but he was just so flipping awesome that it is just absolutely stunning to see that thing.

Um, we, we stopped and looked into another drainage on the way up there and, uh, saw a really nice moose in this other drainage. And Bobby said, I got to tell you, man, if I had a chance at that, it's, this has been my dream tag. If I had a chance at that moose, I'd probably take him. I'm like, Oh no, you're not.

So we looked at that moose for a little bit, went to where I'd seen Yukon Jack the year before. And he's literally within a hundred yards of where I saw him. Come on. Off the side of the road. Or is he, is he in that alpine willow? Oh, in alpine. You're talking, we haven't moved into the hunt. We're still up scouting. Yeah. All right. So this summer scouting, so we watched him, you know, almost till dark and, you know, took some digisco pictures. He's well over a mile away and just absolutely stunning what this moose was. And, and so a few days later, um, I had Travis and Troy Scott from Arizona desert outfitters. Uh, Travis is a concrete guy. So I was building my house. He came up to do my flat work for me in the summer. Cause I think it was 840 degrees down where he lives. And so I said, uh, well, why don't we go look for this moose?

And, and, uh, Bobby came up and the four of us went up there and looked for him again and found him again. And those two guys got to see that moose on the hoof. And, and it was a pretty neat thing. So we kept watching him and, you know, Bobby'd go up and check on him every couple of days. I would too. And, and right on September 6th, he disappeared again. And, you know, Bobby had his archery tag and it was set to open in a couple of days and we could not find him the next few days. I said, you need to turn your archery tag in and get the rifle tag. And, uh, you can still, he's, he hunts with a longbow, so he could still hunt with a longbow and rifle season. And I said, but if we can't turn this thing up, you know, we might be looking for him for a month and, but he will show up to where I got his picture last year. Eventually I said, there's cows down there.

He's going to go down there to rut. So we looked all through September and could not find him again. And then October 1st, the season started and, and Bobby was looking in a, another drainage and he found a, a really a solid 175 Boone and Crockett class moose. And he passed him up at open on opening day. And, uh, and so, you know, the amount of fortitude it takes to, to walk away from a moose like that. And I mean, this, this moose is standing at 30 yards looking at him and he's a 175 to 180 moose and, and he, he walked away from him. And, uh, so I told him, I said, you got to keep going back to that same spot. I don't know when he's going to be there, but he will be there again. And, and, uh, there's cows in there and I know he's going to show up. And so he kept spending time and, you know, it was, it was pretty frustrating.

We never got to see him and, and we're looking and keep going back to the same spot. And you know how that is when you keep going back to the same spot, you feel like, God, am I wasting my time looking at yourself? Yeah. And I told him, I don't know where he goes, but I know he'll be here. And so I'd gotten off work. It was, I think it was October 9th. So he's only got five days left in the season at that point. That's stressful. And he calls me on my cell phone. He says, I think I found him. I said, what do you mean? You think you found him? He says, I think it's him. I'm like, well, it's either him or it's not. There's so many moose that look like that. He says, I think it's him. So I met him and climbed up on this rock that overlooked his drainage. And sure enough, he's laying out there right in the middle of this drainage in the sun. And, uh, with three cows, I think a young bull.

So, and, uh, so we watched him and I said, well, let's just stay here and watch him until the sun hits him. Cause I think as soon as the sun hits him, they're going to go into the timber. We can't make it down there in time right now, but at least we'll know where they're going to bed for the day. Cause it was this swampy area just surrounded by timber. So we did. And, uh, and the sun came up and then they just started milling around and they laid down again. I'm like, oh, great. Said, all right, well, I'll stay here and watch them. You go down there and get to the edge of the swamp and you get eyes on them. As soon as I see you're down there, um, I'll come down too. So half an hour later, he's down there and I see him. He's on the edge and watching them. And, and so at that point I hustled down there and, and, uh, I get back there and parked by his truck and he came back to the truck.

He goes, they're just standing out there. They're not doing anything. I'm like, you took your eyes off him. Why did you? Yeah. They're not doing anything. I'm like, you never took your eyes off him. You should have put him straight back down. That's what you're thinking. Yeah. Jeez. So we hustled around the other side where we could walk in on him and we're walking in the timber and it's at that point, it's, you know, the harsh shadows of bright sunlight and dark timber. And I look ahead about 75 yards. It looks like a moose standing there looking at us. And I threw up my binoculars and it's him. And he's just standing there motionless and watching us walking in there. And I'm like, holy crap. And he's walking up this trail. And, uh, so I told Bobby, I said, you just stay right here behind this spruce tree and I'm going to keep walking out at an angle.

And he's going to just going to watch me walk out of sight and then he'll keep walking up here right past you. And so he did. And I took off out there and went into this, uh, clearing and, uh, I hear the moose just make one single grunt and he starts walking again. And, and he walks literally within about seven yards of Bobby. No way. He zipped an arrow right into him at that point. Still had the bow. He wasn't, he was killing with the bow. Awesome. Got him with a long bow and he went a little ways and crashed and that was it. And, uh, that's the story of the Pope and young world record. Yeah. What are some measurements on that thing for people that know what a big Chirus is? Tell us about it. 56 wide. Um, he netted officially 192, but, um, we had him scored at 194. There was one point, brow point that was broke off and, you know, they measure moose points.

And, and so, uh, we thought it was a point and, and basically the point got denied. Because it's wider than it is long type thing. Yeah. And it was, it was right on the bubble, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't really matter. He's, he, uh, monster. Grossed 196. Uh, first measurement was net 194. And I think, uh, um, Boone and Crockett had him at 194 net and, uh, Pope and young dropped it to 192. Wow. Which is. Unbelievable. Yeah. I think Pope and young has dropped the score on every, uh, world record moose that they've gotten their hands on. So. Yeah. Oh. Well, that's incredible. Any other crazy moose stories we need to know about? Swamp, swamp, swamp donkey, swamp donkey stories. Yeah. The following year, uh, another friend of mine on the fire department, Eric Stollacher won the statewide raffle for moose. Jeez. You guys. He ended up getting the muzzleloader world record. So.

Was that a bull you knew about at all? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a bull. I got a, I got a cell phone pic of this bull. Uh, it was sent to me and, uh, it was just freaking blew me away. I wouldn't have thought this bull was a, uh, um, was actually a Colorado showers bull, but he was, he was big and black. And then, uh, there was a house with a basketball hoop in the background. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And so that's the thing about Colorado. You know, there's, we get a lot of people here and there's a lot of places where moose live around people and there's open season. So moose aren't afraid of anything. They're just absolutely not unafraid. So they'll go in around people and do the thing in towns and everything there. They just grew up without grizzlies and wolves. So they've never known fear. They, they, you know, there's an inherent aspect of fear being a prey animal, but you know,

by the time they get mature, they're not afraid of anything cause they've never had an experience that made them afraid. So, um, then I found this, uh, woman's mountain biking blog doing some internet research and I found a picture of this moose on her blog. Oh my gosh. I swear. Just admit it. You were stalking her. Social stalking. Yeah. I could show you the blog and I'm just giving you grief. I'm just, this woman's not interested in men.

So anyway, probably is an anti-hunter and she led to the demise of a world record. This is, this is a new way of scouting for moose. Mike, we're dropping some secrets on this podcast. There is a, she just got a picture of a big moose on the side of the road when she's out riding her bike. And I'm like, that's that moose. There's no doubt in my mind. Wow. And so, um, when Eric won the tag, uh, you know, he, uh, I told him, I said, you need to hunt for this moose and this moose alone. I mean, this thing is an absolute giant. I think it's bigger than Bobby's moose. And, uh, so he, he basically dedicated himself to trying to take that moose. And, and so an interesting thing is a couple of years before that picture was taken, uh, when I was doing my scouting, I still had this email from a friend of mine of these pictures of these bull moose.

And I kind of put two and two together and saw this picture. And I thought that looks like the moose Eric is going to be looking for, but at a younger age, he's got a real similar antler configuration. And so I figured out where this picture was taken. And I told Eric, I said, if you can't find this moose, I think he's going to go back there after the rut. Cause he was with six or seven other bulls in October. And so long story short, I really didn't have time to help Eric. And he basically did this all on his own, but he ended up killing that moose in the place that we found where the other guy had taken his picture a couple of years before. And he dedicated, dedicated himself to killing that moose. Post rut in October. Post rut in October. And he, he got them in the snow. Wow. And, uh, and he really, both these guys worked on the same fire department as me and we're

all friends and, and so, you know, to have two friends kill the world record archery and muzzleloader two years in a row is a pretty cool deal. Pretty unbelievable. And how recent is this, so for our listeners, what years roughly, or do you remember exactly? I think, uh, 15 and 16. Yeah. Just the last few years. I remember. I drew my charist tag in 14 and Bobby drew 15 and Eric won the raffle in 16. So what was Eric's bull scored? What did it score? Uh, Eric's bull netted one 89, but, uh, it had broken, I think four or five points off the one side. So right there you're looking at, you know, mid one nineties net without those points broken off. And he was 58 inches wide. 58. And he has the single largest, I think, charist antler. He's really unbalanced for a big bull. He's got a super strong right side. And I think he had either 13 or 15 points on that right side.

And, uh, if he was matching on the right, on both sides, he would have been a two 20 charist. Oh, wow. Unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it was 58 inches wide. Uh, what is that? 58 from two 20 is one 82. So that strong side was a 90 something inch, uh, charist antler on one side. So it's tremendous. Yeah. Well, Colorado has been producing. It seems like in the, in the era of charist moose in the West, most States, Utah, Wyoming, um, parts of Idaho, Montana are flat out struggling to produce either moose in numbers or quality. And Colorado is cranking them out. They just crank them out. Well, I think both of those world records could be broken too. I think obviously the muzzle loader is probably a little bit more likely than the archery, but, uh, you know, as we, as we listen to your podcast with Hobie Gardner, and I think

he was unaware of the new muzzle loader world record being from Colorado. And so he thought that Idaho could probably produce it and I'm not wanting to talk smack. I'm just saying that right now it's, uh, it's all Colorado as far as the top of the charist moose, uh, records. And, and I think it's going to get even better here pretty soon. So Chris, what are you saying? Are you, are you watching one that that's going to set the record? I mean, what are you saying? I'm just trying to read through the lines here. Oh, I found another moose last year. That'll go over one 90. Oh, okay. Yeah. I'll buy some raffle tickets. He was, uh, a 13 by 15 over 50 wide and over one 90. So. Jeez. Huh? Yeah. Still alive walking around. Still alive walking around. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. You never know what's going to happen, but you know, the thing that's interesting, I've

learned a lot about these moose and a lot of it I learned from a guy named Jed Pendergrass who used to guide for Scott Limmer, but Jed is a, a moose nut and he really told me a lot about what to expect and moose behavior and what they do, but they are really amazingly philopatric in nature. They like doing the same thing at the same time every year. And so there's a, there's something about moose that, you know, they're, they're somewhat predictable, but the season structure is not conducive to, to, you know, taking advantage of these behaviors either. Cause it's just, it's short and it's a, doesn't quite start at the right times. And, um, it's a, it's a little frustrating. Well, it's kind of interesting. The, the last week in September, you can't even hunt them. You know what I mean? It's like you start archery and then you got a week off of nothing.

You've got a gap between archery and rife. Arguably the peak rut week, you know what I mean? Or one of the, one of the two or three peak rut weeks is, you know, not even huntable. It's kind of interesting. Yeah. Maybe that's why you got some of these giant bulls walking around. Be careful what you wish for too. Well, yeah, I, I think there's, you know, there's, it's quite evident that Utah has put too much pressure on its shire or smooth. Yeah. You know, by the, by the size, you know, I think you're, you guys have killed quite a few big bulls in the late nineties, right? Yeah. Yeah. Mid 2000s. Or the often unit. Yeah. We've, we've either shot them or they had some disease issues. Moose are prone to that. And some of these mild winters, as big as they are parasite wise, they're prone to that. And that's, you know, I know part of Wyoming's issues too, but they got wolves.

They got other issues. A lot of moose hair and wolf crap up there. It's really fun hunting these moose though. I really enjoyed all the time I've spent hunting moose. It's, it's something different than, you know, your typical spot and stalk and, you know, you're creeping around the trees a little bit. But they're so captivating when you're around them. It's, they're, they're just in a really incredible hamel. And it doesn't help that, you know, we've got the biggest shires going down here right now. So yeah, that's a pretty exciting aspect. Well, what's cool about it is these patterns, you know, usually people don't hunt them enough to, to really understand them. And it just feels like, you know, you've got to where you're kind of understanding them, following them. You're getting to turn them back up six or seven miles away or whatever the case may be on a particular bull.

But, you know, that's what's, that's what's kind of cool about it is, is hunting these particular animals and then being able to follow them, you know, year to year for a couple of years. Yeah. I haven't been in on that many shires moose getting killed. Only four of them, but every one of them has been a big Boone Crockett moose. And, you know, I think the most important thing to do is if you really want to kill a big moose, you've got to be able to pass up mediocre animals and you've got to be able to spend every day out there hunting of the season. And just put the time and miles in because it's, it's not about just simply sitting on the side of a swamp and waiting for one to walk by. It's, you really, really have to put a lot of effort into it. So you can't walk them down either. No, their stride is giant. I think Bronson's stride's giant, but no, the moose are big.

They got to, they can cover some ground. So. Yeah. Tell us about, you know, we're coming kind of to the end of it, but I wanted, I did want to, we did want to talk about some of these big bulls. Do you've, you've been following over the years, you know, of course you got over the counter. Elk. Elk. Yeah. That's what we're talking. Over the counter elk opportunities and whatnot, and that you've been capitalizing on here and there. Yeah. I think there's a couple of things that have contributed to some bigger bull in the state. And one has been the mild weather patterns of, of our hunting seasons. The last few years. And, you know, it's. Lower success. Harvest success. Lower success just in general. And I think, you know, it's not so much on big bulls, but it's just bulls in general, guys are. Yeah. You know, it's warm. The elk are in the trees in typical elk country.

And then you combine that with the increased use of four wheelers. And a lot of people are really content on riding the four wheeler around during the day and just enjoying the weather, the sun and the mountains. And, and I think people, there's a certain group of hunters that just don't put as much effort into it anymore because of their four wheelers. They've gotten lazy. Well, and when the weather's nice, what we found even on some of our deer hunts is if it's bluebird nice, people got the week off work and it's nice. They're going to stay out there and hunt camp, drive around all that. And they're going to, you know, you don't keep the animals, I guess you'd call them pressure. When you get, sometimes you get snotty weather, we start getting excited because the hunting might start getting good. And a lot of other people go home when it gets like that. Absolutely. Yeah.

Usually the hunting does get good. We love snow. It does. Yeah. I haven't seen it happen yet where it snowed and the hunting didn't get better. Yeah. But it just keeps everybody out the whole season. It seems like when it's nice, it's like the summer slash fall is coming to an end and I'm going to milk it for other. The weather's beautiful. It's 70, 75 degrees. The hunting's terrible. And they're, you know, everything's just holed up tight in the trees and you're not going to kill them. Colorado Jeep bosses are out. So there's part of this thing with the elk too, I think has, you can contribute it to the beetle kill of the lodgepole pine forest. You know, those cover a lot of the high country in Colorado. And we've gotten to the point where our dead lodgepole forest, the trees have fallen down and just created a network of doubt, dead, dead fall and, and trees everywhere.

And part of it, you know, the edge effect is grass has grown up for the elk in the dead fall. And it's also created a barrier for hunters where, you know, there's places you can't hike through anymore. It's just miserable. Yeah. It's just a, yeah, it's, it's a horrible thing to even try. I knew what you were going to say, Mike. And we agree. Yeah.

It's thick. So it was a... Very frustrating. I think those two things are factors. You know, the ATVs and the, and the dead fall. So, well, and with you guys, you know, I'm rounding, but you know, roughly say 75% of Western Colorado has over-the-counter archery and second and third season rifle tags. You've, opportunities everywhere. And so how do you, how do you narrow it down? I'm sure with you, you've found specific bulls hunting deer or looking for a moose or something weird by accident. And there's things like that, but, and that's probably going to be the key to maybe kill overachieving, if you can use that term on an over-the-counter tag and killing a, a big, you know, a 350 plus bull. Like I know you have over the time, but, but for the most part, I mean, how do you, how do you narrow it down? Cause the focus is so broad. You can go almost anywhere in Western Colorado.

How do you narrow it down? Gotta have your favorite go-to areas. Yeah. And I'm not really asking you to divulge yours, but how would you approach that if you're somebody looking at hunting Colorado and you can hunt so many different places? I mean, how do you, I think the biggest thing you need to do is look for places you can get away from other people. Yeah. When you have good access and, and camps and campgrounds and good hunter camping spots, you're not going to find elk around there. Yeah. They just, you know, it's a, it's a, a factor of elk just effectively get bumped away from hunters. They just have zero tolerance for people. You know, mule deer can get bumped and still be creeping around the same canyon you bumped about them. Elk will leave the neighborhood and go drainages away. And so by the time a bull gets to be, you know, at least seven years old, where he's

going to be a big mature bull, you got to figure he's survived four rifle seasons, a month long archery season and a muzzleloader season. So effectively six seasons a year. Plus there's a late cow season. He's not getting hunted, but he doesn't know the difference either. So when these elk get bumped that much, by the time they reach a seven, he's, he's basically survived over 40 hunting season opening days. Wow. And so these things are smart. They are the smartest thing going in my opinion. Yeah. And, uh, they, they know exactly how to get away from people and they go to places where they don't get messed with, but, but their Achilles heel is they still got to eat. So they go to places they don't get messed with and that they can chow down because these things are just absolutely chowing down before winter. They are, they are got their heads on the ground and they are feeding.

And, uh, so, you know, I, I've, I've basically discovered places from, you know, miles away through a spotting scope and seen yellow dots and, and that's, you know, it just takes effort and time like anything. But. So what are you doing? Are you hunting? You know, I know you're liking to hunt deer, uh, second and third season at times. I mean, are you, you know, obviously you can combine those and, and hunt them, have a tag for both. Are you just dedicating one of those to elk, one of them to deer? What are you doing there? Well, we'll go to the place I call their nest and they, they'll go there year after year to these same places. And, and they just kind of set up there for the fall and they might, I mean, when I'm talking about a spot, they could be in a five acre place. And, you know, as long as they got everything they need, food, water, and shelter, um, a bull

will not go anywhere because he knows he's safer just staying where he's undisturbed and wandering around the forest. So when do you, when do you normally find, I mean, we don't hunt, we're from Utah, so we don't, we don't hunt multiple years over the counter bulls, heavily pressured, all that. When we have a gap in our schedule, we'll come to Colorado, we'll go to Idaho, do something like that. Yeah. But when do you find that these bulls like that have left the cows totally and they're going to their, what you call in the nest? What time of the year? Um, you know, I think most bulls flip the switch by about, you know, the second, starting the second week of October, they're, they're done. The mature bulls, you'll still find, you know, one to four or five year olds, you know, messing with the cows and things, but generally the big old bulls, they flip a switch and they're

done and they start making their way to where they need to be. And, and, uh, you know, I, I'd say by mid October, they're, they're where they're going to be for the fall in a lot of cases. You know, some places you have a more gradual movement and other places the bull will just walk to where he wants to be. And, and, uh, I've seen bulls in the second season already in their, in their nest, so to speak. So, you know, they, they figured out there's only one reason some of these things survive is because they, they get smart and they get educated. They've done it before. And that worked last year, I'm doing it again this year. And all of a sudden I'm hunting deer and there's a big bull in that pocket way back there. I'm going to hunt here next year. I don't have a tag, but next year. Yeah. You can drive, you can go to town and get a tag.

You know, we've, uh, I've been out deer hunting and seen, you know, a three 20, three 30 type bull. Um, but you know, I don't know. It's just, it's over the counter. You know, I don't think a lot about it, but I probably should. Yeah. I remember this teenage kid from Utah, I don't know, four or five years. It killed a, maybe it was a little longer than that, but killed a tremendous bull here in Colorado. I think it was close to three 80. Yeah. Over the counter. I think they found it during the hunt, hunting deer. Exactly. They found it on a deer hunt, went back to town and got a tag. Yep. I mean, what a tremendous bull that was. Yeah. It was. Yeah. And that kid tags a hundred bucks. So the dad's like, well, we'll get one for a kid. Cause it's a hundred instead of six hundred and something for a non-resident. So. It's true. It's true. It's true.

I mean, why not get it in your kid's name if he's, if he's there with you? Yeah. So. Yeah. So, you know, there's, there's some factors allowing elk to get old, but, uh, these, like I said, I think they're the smartest thing going there. They don't make mistakes generally. And it can be a tough animal to hunt. So, you know, there's no substitute for putting in the time and, you know, you're not going to, these aren't going to come easy in places you could just, you know, walk two and a half an hour. I mean, generally everything I've taken is for some of these over the counter bowls. I've had to cross a canyon in the dark, go up the other side and, you know, that kind of thing, or walk two hours in the dark and to a place that you just can't see from, I mean, you can't see from the road that's nearby. You can see it from five miles away, but, you know, it's. Yeah.

These are not easy spots to get to. No, there's no question. But there's a lot of big country. There's a lot of wilderness, you know, crazy wilderness, even if it's not designated, just crazy. Roadless. Roadless, brutal, thick. I mean, and large, you know, populations of elk. So it stands to reason there'd be a few of those big bulls. Chris Nenum was out here a couple years ago on a deer hunt. I talked to him right after I got my last nice bull and he said they'd found a really good bull. He figured he was close to 350 and he told me where he was and I said, well, that's a commitment. He goes, that's a good way of putting it. That would be a commitment. Yeah. There's no question. Nothing's going to come easy. Well, it's not like finding a deer somewhere and you get it out, bone him out, get him out.

Now you've got a dead, you know, six to eight year old bull and you've got a lot of meat and it's like, man, I'm done for a couple of days. It's a drainage and it would involve an overnight stay just to hunt him. Yeah. And, you know, you could do it. Yeah. But it's a commitment. Yeah. Right on, man. Well, cool. Anything else you want to, as we wrap up, that you want to visit about? No, it's kind of up to you guys how far you want to go with this, but I just do, I do want to say, uh, I, I've been listening to a few of your podcasts and I think you guys are doing a great job and I'm really enjoying some of the guests you've had on. I've, you know, uh, the one you had with the two biologists, uh, Philip Tuttle and yeah, Josh Pollock. Yeah. Yeah. That, that stuff, uh, the pontagon and the deer and the radio collar stuff is just absolutely fascinating.

It's really interesting to hear about all that stuff. Yeah. Um, you know, Hobie Gardner's stuff where he's hunting elk and moose up there in Idaho, you know, some of the same stuff that he was talking about is exactly what I've been experiencing with moose down here and, and I really enjoyed Troy Justinson and some of the stuff that they're talking about, but you know, I think it's, uh, you guys getting some quality guests on and, uh, kudos to those guys for wanting to be a part of it and you guys for having some interesting people to talk to. Well, and we learn a lot from you guys as well. You know, it's, it's fun to have good dudes on and, and there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of people out there working dang hard and, and we can stand to learn a lot from all you guys. So it is good. And, uh, and we appreciate, you know, your time.

Of course, uh, you know, you've, you've done it, you've done it in all the variety of species Colorado has to offer as well as other places and, and helped a lot of guys. And so it was, you know, our pleasure to visit with you again and, and learn a little bit more before it's time to apply here. Yep. Sounds good. Well, if we didn't miss anything like, I mean, a soft underbelly for antelope or something that you have, I guess, we'll, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll get you. No, I think I said in the email, uh, antelope and mountain goat, if you will, if you want to talk about mule deer, we could do that.

Oh, geez. You'll be on to them. I need animals and I, I just, I do love to hunt them, but I, you know, we're going to talk about stuff. Well, if you're going to, you only have so many days in the year. And so what are you going to dedicate those days to? And that's, we all prioritize to a degree. So some point you'll find an 85 inch antelope and a little tucked away spot there and you'll draw the tag next year and we'll have you on again. Yeah. We'll see. That's awesome. Appreciate it, Mike. No, it's, it's always fun to talk with you. And, you know, I guess one parting thing I want to leave is, you know, you, Mike, you've, you played the draw system in your own state. Obviously you live there and you're going to do that and that's a natural, but, but you've gotten lucky by just throwing other names in the hat and some of these weird things, both

you and some of your friends raffles and things like that. And we, you know, the odds are that nobody should draw one of those. I mean, it's not something you ever plan on or count on, but you guys have proven that it can be done. Yeah. It can happen. And you're not, you know, it's not like you're spending five and 10,000 bucks on tags. I mean, we don't do that either. You gotta be in it to win it. That's right. Put your name in as many of these things as you can. Yeah. So. And, you know, in theory, the money on these raffles, the state raffles goes to conservation projects for that animal. So, you know, there's that. Hopefully they don't go to buy new pickup trucks for state employees and they actually go to projects on the ground. But, you know, you gotta be in it to win it. I tell people that. It's like people say, oh, I never win. Well, I've never won a gun or anything at a banquet.

I've been to lots of them. Yeah. And I know guys that have won multiple guns. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We got a buddy. You never. Kirk Connelly never walks away from a banquet without two or three guns, it feels like. Yeah. But the same principle applies. He's in it to win it pretty heavy. Yeah. Like he goes to a lot of those. A lot of little banquets. All right. Well, sounds good, Mike. Well, I appreciate you, man. And, you know, anything else that comes. You get any other wazoo pictures off of women's blogs of Giant Moose, why forward them on to us. Absolutely. All right. Well, good luck in the draws. Wish you the best. Keep up the good work, guys. All right. Sounds good, man.