EP 70: Wyoming Grizzly Bear Hunt Proposal with Wyoming Game and Fish

We've had grizzly bears in the town of Cody. We've had grizzly bears in the town of Dubois. We just need to manage them. We like to hunt elk too, right? There's science that indicates that there's up to 1,200 bears in this ecosystem. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter and Adam Bronson here with the Epic Outdoors podcast. Coming at you from here in southern Utah, Cedar City. So anyway, got a really exciting podcast. One that Adam and I really look forward to doing. A lot of excitement around Wyoming grizzlies. And so anyway, that's what this podcast will be about today. Before we get started, we do want to thank Under Armour and their support for all of us here at Epic Outdoors as well as hunters in general. They're cranking in the hunting industry and got a lot of new products coming out. Some of you might have seen some of the new YouTube clips that we did as far as the 2018 products that will be out later on this summer. So anyway, a lot of fun. Check that out. And again, we appreciate them as well as all of our supporters.

So Epic Outdoors is a company where we concentrate on hunting information for the western U.S., Canada, Alaska, Mexico. So we do produce a monthly magazine from December through June and then bimonthly the remainder of the year when we're all out in the field. So anyway, it's nine issues a year. It's $100. And that is for the magazine as well as being able to call in and get hunting advice, consulting, whatever. Whether it be tags, hunts, whatever you need as far as western big game hunting. Yeah, and it's a different magazine. It's a research-based, thorough, you know, draw application strategy-based magazine. So a lot goes into it. You'll have a lot of detailed information on drawing odds, harvest statistics, the best units, the mediocre units, the easiest to draw units. However, whatever that fits your personal application strategy, we go through that.

Then, like Jason talked about, we're here at the phone all application season, which is basically January through May, and strategizing with members and how to use your points, giving our input. If you have questions, if you need an outfitter, we help represent hunts for the best outfitters in the various units throughout the western U.S. too. If you draw a tag and you're self-guided, we have an Epic Member Experience database that we can send to you of other members that have hunted that same unit in the past. So anything that we can do to help you get on and have better and more successful western big game hunts. We also have a full service, license application service. This is for guys that just don't have the time to apply themselves. So while the basis of our business is draws throughout the west and obtaining tags, whether it be landowner tags or guaranteed tags through outfitters,

we also have a license application service. And this is, you know, where we apply guys throughout all the western states for big game species and acquire points, tags, and what have you. So anyway, that is an additional service above and beyond the $100. And it's per state basis with a $500 cap. You cannot spend more than $500 with us in our license application service. And that's doing every species throughout all western states. And so anyway, for more information, you can go to epicoutdoors.com. You can get on there. Feel free to give us a call. There's some sample magazines on there as well as some different tabs where you can see what the different services are that we offer here at Epic Outdoors. We've got on the phone with us, Adam, we've got Brian Nesvick. I think that's how you pronounce it. Is that right, Brian? That's right, yeah. Who is... Norwegian. Right on, right on.

Who is the chief game warden, not only a game warden, but the chief game warden of Wyoming, as well as the chief of the wildlife division on with us. So anyway, Brian, maybe just kind of introduce yourself to us here. Hey, you bet. Thanks, Jason. I appreciate it. Glad to have the opportunity to talk to your audience about something that certainly consumes a lot of my time, but has a lot of my interest as well, and that's grizzly bears. We're very fortunate in Wyoming to have a very robust and healthy population of grizzly bears, and they're certainly an icon of remote, wild backcountry. And so, yeah, I'm looking forward to the time we're going to have here today. Speaking of Wyoming, they do have a super tag drawing where you can apply online. Super tag tickets are $10 each per specie, or you could do the trifecta for $30.

So anyway, in addition to the regular application procedure, the deadline to apply for these super tags is July 2, 2018. So anyway, we do want to encourage everybody. We have personal friends and clients here at Epic Outdoors that have drawn these, including the trifecta. So it does work. You can go online, wgfd.wyo.gov backslash epicoutdoors to apply online. So anyway, make sure you go online, get applied. By July 2, it's just another opportunity to get an awesome tag in Wyoming. Tell us about, obviously, you're wearing two big hats, it sounds like to me. I worked for Utah Division of Wildlife for about five years, and I know in Utah at least those two roles that you're in right now are two separate people. So maybe that's a big head of all wildlife division as well as all the game wardens in the state. You don't get there by putting in six months with the state.

You've been there for a while, I assume. So tell us a little bit about your involvement with the agency and how you got to where you're at. You bet. So I can tell you that while all my decisions when I was a young lad were not always good and my judgment wasn't the best, I did make a couple of really good decisions. One was to marry my wife, and the other one was to sign on with the Wyoming Game and Fish Department, and I've done that, been with the department now for 23 years, and I've been in a position that I'm in now for about seven. And in Wyoming, it's unique because our game wardens are actually, they are multi-purpose, jack-of-all-trades kind of game wardens. So they actually spend only about a third of their time focused specifically on law enforcement, and they also have a responsibility for about a third of their time to spend on wildlife management type activities.

And then, you know, the other things, public education as well as dealing with wildlife conflicts is another pretty big part of their job. But because of that and because Wyoming has an over 100-year history of that type of a position, historically, the job that I hold as the chief game warden has responsibility for all wildlife management in the state. So it's a great opportunity. It is, at times, you know, a lot of responsibility, but it is a, I think it fits really well for the Wyoming model. And, yeah, I wouldn't change a thing. I think it works really well. Well, that's pretty awesome. You got the same guys enforcing the law as well as guys that are, you know, intimately involved in the management side where, you know, a lot of states have, you know, guys that enforce the law, and then you have separate biologists that don't necessarily wear a gun and a badge all day long.

So very interesting take, which is also good because, you know, guys are kind of vested. You know, they manage it and then they protect it. So kind of awesome. Absolutely. And, you know, we do have a hell of a cadre of biologists as well. And they're all, you know, within my purview as well. But, you know, separate roles, but in a lot of ways, similar roles. And so literally you have, and our biologists spend time in the field interacting with hunters as well as our game wardens do. And so you have the same folks that are interacting with hunters and enforcing the laws as the folks that are setting seasons and collecting biological information. And for Wyoming's public, it works really well. Utah used to be like that years and years ago, and they've kind of gone to the segregated roles. But that's unique, and I appreciate that background.

Sounds like you've got a bunch of history there, and we're glad that you made time to talk with us about grizzlies today. So maybe just kind of as a back history a little bit, can you give us a little bit of history as to grizzly bears in Wyoming, how we got to where we are today, where they were historically, you know, obviously the Endangered Species Act, how the melissans threatened in the 1970s, and then what's happened throughout that period of time, and bring us up to speed with, you know, last year's proposed delisting, and kind of where we're then going to get into the rest of our talk today about potentially hunting them again. You bet. You bet. So, yeah, I'll go back and I'll start back in the 70s, and I'll even go a little bit further back than that. So traditionally, grizzly bears were native to most of the state of Wyoming as well as many of the other western states.

And as, you know, as westward expansion happened with, you know, and the population grew, and there was more development in the west, a lot of grizzly bear populations became only abundant in those places where there was a lot of wilderness and a lot of remote areas away from people. And so in Wyoming, really, by the early 1900s, the only place where there were healthy populations of grizzly bears was in the northwest part of our state where we have the more, you know, remote and wild type country. By 1973, grizzly bears had been reduced down to what most believe was about 136 bears. And there was a lot of reasons for that. I mean, at the time, it actually, believe it or not, Yellowstone actually used to have large garbage dumps within the park where bears were allowed to come and freely forage on large garbage dumps. And when Yellowstone... That's baiting. That's baiting. Yeah, exactly.

Parties are baiting. But it was real popular, but it also put a lot of bears in peril because they came in conflict with humans. Once they became habituated to humans and human food sources, they became, you know, there was a lot of conflicts. There was a lot of grizzly bear attacks then. And when they closed, Yellowstone decided that those were not a good idea, and rightfully so from my perspective. And they shut those dumps down, it had an effect on bears. And so, you know, then there was widespread take of grizzly bears for conflict problems. And there was also a very limited hunting season at that time. So anyway, I think grizzly bears were certainly, it might have been the first. It wasn't the first. It was close to the first species that were actually put on the endangered species list when the Act went into place in 1975.

And quickly, the states of Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming started working on recovery plans and really kind of put into place what I think the Endangered Species Act was initially intended for. And that was to take a species that was potentially threatened and move it towards not being threatened anymore and being managed by the state. And so, through decades literally of work and multiple recovery plans, finally in the early 2000s, by all measures, grizzly bears were fully recovered in the Yellowstone ecosystem. Do you, for our listeners and whatnot, when you define that, and maybe it's quantifiable by numbers or estimated numbers, when you say fully recovered, what were their goals and what was that target objective for recovery? That's a really good question. And that actually changed over time based on the science. And so, you know, early on, the number was fairly low.

The number was like, you know, around 400 bears was considered recovered. But essentially what I define as recovered in modern science is 500 grizzly bears that have breeding bears occupying a majority of the ecosystem and mortality levels at levels that allow the population to be stable. So what all that means is 500 bears, there's, you know, minimum absolute number of 500 bears for genetic diversity. There's, the ecosystem is divided up into 18 bear management units. And essentially one of the, those measures of recovery is, is having 16 of those 18 units occupied by females that are having cubs. So what that ensures is, is then you have a, you know, you have reproducing bears across most of the ecosystem.

And then lastly, that, that mortality doesn't cause problems, you know, that you're not having excessive mortality from highway deaths or from hunters shooting them in self-defense and those kinds of things. When you say, when you say these ecosystems, are you just talking about Wyoming? Because I know you guys have a, like a tri-state MOU with, with Idaho and Montana as well. But we're just talking about this northern Yellowstone ecosystem, right? Is that kind of how it's defined? Northwest Wyoming or? No, it's actually, it's not. It's a very, and that's another nuance of, of wildlife management with this particular species is that it actually spans, the ecosystem spans portions of all three of those states. Okay. And that's why there's a necessity to have a three-state agreement because this population isn't managed based on political boundaries or state boundaries.

Yeah, just a species. It's managed based on the ecosystem. Of where their, where their suitable habitat is. And when you guys talk about a recovery plan and efforts, is that just, what does that mean? Is that just not, not hunting them? Is it augmentation? I mean, what does that mean? When, when you. Essentially. Yeah. Essentially recovery, the recovery plan put into place or established what all of the different agencies involved should put into place to ensure habitat for grizzly bears was either protected or enhanced. And that population management was done at a level that would allow grizzly bears to reach recovery. I got you. In that. That's essentially what the plan detailed. So does this, this includes the three states, but not, there's a segment up in northern Montana near Glacier National Park.

Is that part in northwest Montana, is that, we're not talking about that part in this ecosystem, right? That part of Montana, there's, there's a gap in between, there's a gap in between that very northwest Montana and down this south, we'll just call it southwestern Montana. Right. Yep. That's exactly right. They're two separate populations. And right now they are not connected. And so what we're talking about is just that, what they define or what they call the greater Yellowstone population, which is a main, most of it's in Wyoming, but there is a significant portion in southwest Montana. And then a little portion of it in northeastern Idaho, or, you know, not up into the panhandle, but kind of the. Yeah. The stuff adjacent to the park, you know, to eastern Idaho along, you know, along the Wyoming and Montana border. Okay. Exactly.

So do you feel like, do you feel like the elimination of some of those, the dumps and garbage sites and different things kind of forced them to spread out and maybe even, you know, into these 18 management units actually spread out a little quicker than maybe if they had kept that? And, and how did that push them out? Yeah. Certainly those at one time. Yeah. Certainly they, they artificially concentrated grizzly bears. Yeah. Um, there's no doubt about that. And, and so not only that, but all of the recovery planning and the protection of, of those remote habitats, um, is really what allowed grizzly bears to expand not only their population, but also their distribution to the level that it is now. I mean, it's, you could, it's, it's more than doubled in size, the distribution of grizzly bears.

Was there anything done, um, other than the, you know, the main, Hey, we're going to maintain the habitat the way it is, these pristine remote areas, you know, avoid fragmentation, things like that. Um, obviously they're going to have to be the problem bears that just couldn't learn right out of the gate, you know, after the dumps were shut down and they had to be removed. But once those, those bears were weaned off it or killed or whatever, was it just, were bears then left to do it on their own? There were no, um, transplant or type effort like that going on. Was there to my knowledge? I don't know. There wasn't. Yeah. No. In fact, the only thing that was really going on and that was even closely related to that was removals, um, with bears that came into conflict. And a lot, most of the time it was bears that were, that were preying on livestock.

And so would you put them into some of these units that maybe you were trying to augment, so to speak, or, or recover? You know, we really, when we move bears and even going back historically, um, moving bears, we would, we would place them in places where they're already occupied habitats, where they had the least chance of getting into conflict again. And so those areas that weren't occupied were out kind of on the fringes and they were closer to humans. You didn't want them. And, and transplanting a problem bear is, uh, you know, you're asking for trouble if you put them in a place where they're likely to just get right back in trouble again. So we'd actually move them to the, more towards the core of the ecosystem. I gotcha. We do want to throw a little shout out to Kent's Optics, uh, David and Jeff Harrell. They make our members good deals. They have great prices.

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So at what point, and I don't need an exact year, but at what point did you say it was the early 2000s, you believe, that that, the, the basic, um, recovery targets of, you know, the 500 bears, you know, with, you know, reproductive success and occupying the majority of their, you know, suitable ecosystem. Roughly, when do you think most of those, um, targets were met? Yeah. So 2003 is certainly, um, there's, it's pretty much unquestionable that by 2003, all those were met. It's possible it was before that, but yeah, it's for sure 2003. And so it takes from then until now to basically, it's a, it's a political issue. It's a management issue trying to figure out, okay, how can we, uh, truly hunt these and maintain and, and what, what makes sense for where we're at? Is that, I mean, technically, I guess you, you're, you're saying we could have possibly started hunting them mid 2000s.

Yeah, we could have. And actually there was a, um, a delisting rule that was when they were recovered in the early 2000s, they put together the service, put together a delisting rule. And they actually had them delisted for a short period of time, 2007, 2008. And there was a 2007 rule. They were delisted in 2008 briefly. Um, and then litigation put them back on the list again. And they stayed on the list from then all the way up until here recently, um, when the service did another delisting rule and, and got them off the list again. Similar to, similar in a similar way to wolves. I mean, wolves followed somewhat of the same pattern. They, they met their recovery efforts in some of these same three states, although it's not the exact same, you know, geographical area, but, but same three states involved.

But then it was years and years and years before they were actually delisted and stayed delisted. Some states, you know, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, all that different. Let's call it working out the kinks. Yeah, it was, it was a lot of efforts, but, but similar thing. It's a political, it's litigation. Like you said, it's, uh, you know, we'll call them, you know, defenders of wildlife type groups that, um, you know, maybe are just focused on, you know, complete preservation. Preservation without any, um, without any possible means to have sportsmen manage them or things like that. That's not an option for them. They're, they're heavily involved to where, you know, their lawyers and things like that continually grind in this long period of time. 15 plus years, perhaps until, um, they were formally again, delisted last summer.

I think I read on you guys' website or U.S. Fish and Wildlife website that now the number's projected, it's over 700 bears. Is that, is that kind of a number that's somewhat, you know, accepted? Yeah, I was wondering, you were at 500-ish around 2003. Where, how have you grown? Where are you at today, do you figure? Yeah, so the, so that's, I'm glad you brought this up because, um, this is another very important, um, component of grizzly management. One thing you're going to hear over and over again as we talk about this is that, that all of the estimates and that all of the management practices that are applied related to this species are, are extremely conservative. Yeah. And so that, that population estimate of 700 roughly bears is biased very, very low. And they're, none of the experts and scientists that study this bear population will tell you anything but that.

It is because of the model that is used and the way that it makes assumptions, it biases the population estimate low. And actually, as the population gets bigger, the bias becomes even greater. Really? Exactly. So that is, in the layman's terms, that is a scientific number that is like the lowest absolute it could possibly be, you know, I don't know how to put it in lay terms more than that. That's an excellent way to put it, really. And since we're talking. We can be confident. And since we're talking, so frankly, what's your, what's your, can you say what your opinion is? What do you feel like? Yeah, so, yeah, you know, really, and it's not just my opinion. There's science that indicates that there's up to 1,200 bears in this ecosystem.

They need my, my tag needs to be on one of them.

That's a lot of bears. Well, and if you really look at this area, I mean, we're, we're, that's a lot of bears in that size of area. And I'm, I'm, I mean, it is a good chunk of Wyoming from, you know, let's just say from Cody West, you know, obviously over into the Idaho a little bit and north into Absarca, Bear Tooth parts of Montana. But still, that is not that big of an area in my mind for that type of number. I mean, it's just not. That's a high density. Is that a, is that a lot to you, Brian? It seems like a lot. Yeah, it is. It's a lot of bears. And we, you know, we certainly believe that because the, you know, this, this is the, the leader of the study team's term. I like to quote him on this because he's a, he's a very smart guy and he knows these bears really well.

But, you know, he talks about there's a sardine can and the sardine can is full and you can't put any more sardines in this can. And so that's why one of the things we're seeing in both Montana and, and Wyoming is, is because the, the, the carrying capacity or the, the core of the ecosystem is essentially can't handle many more bears. They're moving out into more unsuitable habitats, closer to humans and places where you wouldn't expect to see a grizzly bear. I'll give you an example, you know, north and east of Cody, we have regularly, we have grizzly bears out in cornfields. Jeez. And, you know, that's just not. Just raiding. Yeah. Eating ears of corn, ripping them apart. Like, they've got, at some point we're going to have to give depredation tags on bears. That's right. Yeah. So you thought, you thought you had problems with elk in cornfields. Now you got grizzlies.

That's a new one for me. That's a new one. Do they eat the corn? They just, I mean. Oh yeah, it's a great place for a bear to be. Candy. Because they can, they have cover and they can eat corn and. I can see this whole landowner tag thing going crazy. Landowner tags for bears, grizzlies. I can see this. Yeah, I don't think we're there yet. But anyway. We have to do another 40 years of study. I can tell you I have some friends that are landowners there that would just, that would really like that to be the case. So there are legitimate, like it's not a, it's not a casual sighting or something like, there's legitimate bears in cornfields. Absolutely. And, and bears that find themselves in larger towns like Cody. We've had grizzly bears in the town of Cody. Jeez. We've had grizzly bears in the town of Dubois.

And so, you know, they've, and, and again, you know, grizzly bears are, they are, they're really, really cool critter. And they have, they're really good at filling their belly. And really that's their, that's what they're good at. And, and they do it in a lot of ways. And they're, you know, we call them opportunistic omnivores, meaning that they can find a lot of different foods to meet their caloric needs. But, you know, that's just what grizzly bears do. If, if the easy thing to do to, to meet their needs is to go out in a cornfield and eat corn. And if they go back to where they just came from up in the wilderness, where they got their butt kicked by a big male bear, it makes sense biologically for a bear to go to a cornfield. Yeah. Oh, geez. Well, and, and we've heard, you know, we're, we're avid hunters and, and we talked to a lot of big game hunters and outfitters that are hunting,

you know, goats and sheep and moose and elk and all, all the different types of big game in parts of Wyoming over the last, you know, let's say 10 or 20 years and how it feels. And I know you guys are, you, you got your pulse on this way more than, than we do in Southern Utah, but it feels like the prevalency rate and you alluded to it earlier that the saturation level is so high within the true core grizzly habitat that the prevalency rate of hunters encountering bears, and maybe we'll take it as far as saying that the human, the hunter bear conflicts feels like they're more and more common. As we, you know, as I'm sure these bears have just, you know, they've reached about all the mountains can hold. I guess to put it, put it simple. Well, it's just crazy what, what we're, we're dealing with a lot of hunters that have elk tags up there.

And we even had a good friend of ours, John Alderson on a podcast where a bear pushed him up a tree, which there's a lot of that going on, a lot of that. And that's what Adam's saying. I mean, there's just so many bears that, you know, hunters, regular hunters, maybe even, I don't know if I could say the majority of elk hunters in some of this country end up seeing bear or dealing with bear conflicts. Well, and you've dealt with a generation or two or three or four of bears that have had this level of protection. And they don't really assimilate danger and humans together. Is that kind of right, Brian? I mean, for a lot of various reasons. I mean, from. I don't know if I could quite get there. I mean, there are definitely, there's a lot of hunter conflicts. And the reason there's a lot of them is because there's a lot of bears and there's a lot of hunters,

but we actually see very cyclical changes in those conflicts. In some years, we just don't see, I mean, even with the same number of bears, we don't see as many. And then, you know, you have another year and it's a, it's a different kind of a food year. Or like this past year, we had really heavy snow in the high country early on. And in what you ended up with is all those high country bears ended up down and in the ground between, you know, winter range and high elevation summer range. And that's where the elk were and that's where the hunters were and that's where all the bears were. And so we had a lot of conflicts there. But at the end of the day, though, one of the things we see for the most part is bears avoid contact with humans. They don't like humans. And I've personally seen this. I mean, I've seen both sides of it.

I've seen bears that as soon as they see you, you know, they're moving out. And then I've seen bears too that give you that look like, don't forget I'm at the top of the food chain. Get out of my way. And they don't necessarily show fear. But by and large, I'll tell you that this is kind of a good news story is that the trend line on conflicts is certainly up. There's no doubt about it. There's more hunters coming in conflict with bears. But the proportion of those conflicts to the population is actually declined, meaning that. Your bear numbers are just so high. And people are doing the right things with trying to prevent them. Yeah. More prepared. Yeah. Back in the 80s, there weren't food storage rules. And people didn't hang their food. And they didn't hang their meat. And they didn't carry bear spray. And they didn't, you know, there's a lot of things that people did differently.

And now over time, they've learned. And we've tried to help with that through our BearWise program. Learned to try to live and not have conflicts with grizzly bears. And so it's in a lot of ways, while the number, overall number's up, the proportion is not up. So that speaks to hunters, though. You know, hunters are a huge part of grizzly bear conservation. And they are, it's because of hunters that this great recovery, the success story in wildlife management has happened. And, you know, the state of Wyoming has invested $50 million nearly now in recovery of grizzly bears more than any one, any other entity. And that $50 million came from hunters and fishermen. Pittman Robertson. That's sportsman dollars. Money, yeah. Well, that's crazy. I remember clear back in the late 90s, my dad had an elk tag in 61 up there by Matitsi. And anyway, seeing a grizzly up there.

And it was just, man, they're kind of give you the heebie-jeebies a little bit. You just, you know, you start to realize they're out there. It's not just, you know, hearing about them. Especially for us where we don't, you guys throughout your life or whole career, obviously, you dealt with them. You prepared for them. But when we go out of state, you know, that's why in our magazine we highlight, hey, to our hunters and subscribers, expect to encounter grizzly bears here. Because it's something that, you know, 95% of the hunting, you know, masses, you know, especially outside of Wyoming, they never, they don't have that. Yeah, I'm looking, like, when I go up there, I want a fire extinguisher-sized can of pepper spray. I don't want any of these eight-ounce little whatever. So, I don't want, I mean, you, Jason, remember. Ten pounds of pepper spray.

You had one, tell the listeners about it, you had one sniffing outside your tent. Oh, I had one up there, yeah, in the Wind River's up there. Sheep unit. Ten. Ten. Ten, yeah, Du Bois country. Ten pounds of pepper spray up there, and we were clear up on the top above Timberline and in a little tent, and my dad and I were in there. And anyway, there was a little, I don't know what you call it, woofing, whatever, you know, outside of our tent. Yeah, huffing. Dylan, you know, in camp. And, you know, and I was like, I wonder if I'm just hearing something. It was windy, you know, it's windy up there. Anyway, and I'm like, I don't know, you know, and I, anyway, and it kept going on, and it was like right outside the tent, and I'm like, I turned to my, or I didn't turn to him. I mean, it was dark, you know, it's pitch dark. We're sharing a tent, and I'm like, do you hear that? And he goes, yep.

And I said, and he says, and I says, I said, you got your gun? You know, right there, it was between us. I said, you got your gun ready? He goes, oh, there's one in the pipe. And that was it. And it was, I mean, we didn't move a muscle. And got up the next day, and sure enough, giant freaking coffee can, you know, type tracks outside. And just, anyway, one of those kind of stories that reminds me of, like, I need to invent the fire. You know, I think you'd sell some fire extinguishers. I really think, especially horseback, throw it in the pan. You know, it just makes you feel better. I want something that will spray 50 yards. Well, what's interesting is you guys, probably like you, Brian, your game wardens, the backcountry wardens, and the outfitters up there, they, it's not a big deal to them. I mean, what I said, they've done it enough, and they're prepared enough.

They may have a dog or two around them in camp, or the way they take all the precautions, which I know legally they have to do certain things about food and all that. But you talk with them, and they laugh at us, quote pansies, when we talk about going up there in grizzly country. Just because they deal with it, it's part of their life. They've never not had to deal with it their whole lives up there. And, yeah, they take the precautions. They respect them. But it's not something that governs their every thought and move like it would be us. Well, they probably enjoy us, you know, from Southern Utah guys being a little bit nervous. But just want to take a quick break and thank another one of our sponsors, Kenetrek Boots. We've used their boots for 10 plus years. Great boots, well made. Give a special attention to their new 2018 mountain guide boot.

And they've got deeper lugs, you know, a single piece rubber outsole. Great well-built boot. I've used their mountain guide boots myself. Obviously not the 2018 version yet, as well as their desert guide boots. Very well made. Love them. Like the fit. But they work hard for us and a lot of our sheep hunts and whatnot. They also make another variety of different boots for all your different applications. Some also cross-training type boots and shoes, which, hey, might come in handy if you're out trying to outrun a grizzly bear. That's right. Yeah. I think I'd choose some kind of a light shoe so I could outrun whoever's with me. Yeah, that's right. But you can check out their whole line of Kenetrek boots at Kenetrek, K-E-N-E-T-R-E-K.com. Or you can call them to place an order, 800-232-6064. One thing I did, you know, I do think is awesome and like wolves.

And Adam and I have both taken a wolf or two. But, you know, it is awesome. They're quite a trophy. It's like you said, they're really an awesome animal. It's cool that we have them. It's kind of cool. We just need to manage them. We like to hunt elk too, right? And so, you know, there's things about it. I think it's great that this is coming out, hopefully, and we can talk about this, you know, kind of your plan, what the plan is. And we'll let you present that from your perspective. And then, you know, how people can get involved to ensure or at least help the odds of this actually going through. Sure. You know, and obviously the few bears you're looking at taking is very minimal compared to the populations. But it would obviously have a very minimal, if any, kind of effect, really, on what's going on out there. But it is conservative.

And that's why it's nice to see that and that really should be a good chance of going through and actually having a season on these. But anyway, it is awesome. You know, while we don't necessarily love wolves, it is one of our most cherished trophies. Wouldn't you agree, Adam? Yeah, it is. And, I mean, and we're going to add the same thing probably just like you, Brian. I mean, the grizzly bear has a place. It has a place. It was here before us. And it definitely has a place to stay here. And I guess that's just the message now that we're probably going to start getting into as we start talking now about the current proposed management plan, which does involve a piece of sport harvest in that because of the numbers we just talked about, the 700 to 1,200, whatever, but far exceeding any recovery goals. And, therefore, let's have a tool to help manage because let's just face it.

If you left, you already alluded to some of the problems that you're starting to see because in many areas they're saturated, the available habitat, and you've got dominant bears kicking out subdominants, and they're wandering, and they're trying to find a place in the world, and that's not going to get any better if other mechanisms aren't in place just to start the process to have the selective removal and harvest by sportsmen of bears. So, from your perspective, Chief of Wildlife, tell us how you got to the plan you're at. And, obviously, you know, if you feel like it's a modest plan and definitely doable, let's just talk about some of those things and kind of go through it. Obviously, you've got a, you know, I know you've got a female provision in there and some different things, and so let's talk about that a little bit. You bet.

So, I'll just start by saying that we are strong subscribers to the notion that for decades, many, many decades, a century almost, the North American model of wildlife management has worked well. And it works well for those species that are eaten and those species that eat other species, you know. And so what I mean is it's worked for other large carnivore species like black bears and mountain lions, and it's also worked for deer elk and antelope, sheep, moose, mountain goats. And so, you know, having those folks who use the resource be responsible for managing the resource, both financially and through the establishment of policy, is something we believe very strongly in, and that's a core part of how we approach wildlife management. With that said, you know, one of the things that we wanted to do, we knew this was,

there were opinions, very diverse opinions on how grizzly bears would be managed. We went out and we talked to the public before we ever even had a proposal on the table, and we just said, look, here's some background on this population. Here's where we're at. It's delisted. We want to hear from you on all of the components of management, not just hunting, but all of them. And we're going to use the feedback we get from you to make some decisions about how we implement the grizzly bear management plan in Wyoming. And that was very informative for us. That process happened last October, November timeframe. And like I said, just, we got a lot of excellent feedback from both people in the state and people out of the state, hunters and non-hunters and people on all sides of this issue.

And based on that feedback, we decided that it was definitely supported to move forward with a conservative and a very tightly regulated hunting season. And so that's the proposal that's out there right now is what I would definitely term a very, very conservative hunting season. The, you know, the other thing that you guys alluded to that I thought was pretty thoughtful on your part is the fact that, you know, there's, there's bears that are in conflict that right now, essentially the way they're being managed is a guy or a gal on a red shirt is having to kill them. You know, one of my folks that works for the agency is having to kill them. And to the, you know, one of our goals with any kind of a hunting season is to the maximum extent possible to reduce that number. There's no sense to not have, you know, somebody have that kind of an experience to been able to hunt a bear.

Um, that, that's for us at the end of the day, that's a better, much better option than somebody from our agency having to, having to shoot a bear at the back of a culvert trap, you know? Sure. Yeah. So, so anyway, that's, you know, we came up with this season. It's very conservative. It's, um, it allows the, the actual number that, that, um, we use to start the calculation for how many licenses we can have and how many harvests of bears we can have actually is predetermined. Essentially, it's a formula that it changes each year based on several factors, but that number is not something that the state of Wyoming just sits down and, and has a lot of discretion over how it's developed. Yeah. It's something that we've agreed to. In that tri-state. In that tri-state memorandum. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, it'd be a similar to what you already have in place in some of your,

you know, big game management plans for other species and, and other units. You have parameters in place and in different parts of the state, you have, you know, elk management plans that your hands are, I don't want to say tied, but you're, you're a partnership with a lot of the private landowners in that unit to, you know, tolerate more elk numbers, less elk numbers, all that. It's not just, you know, you're not a dictatorship throwing out what you want. It's a, it's part of a bigger collective approach. And in this case, even more, because we're talking about something that just had 40 years of federal protection and now you're giving the reins as Wyoming game and fish, Idaho game and fish, Montana fish, wildlife and parks too. All right. 40 years has worked. Don't screw it up. You know, let's, let's, let's keep it, let's keep it going. No pressure, but don't screw this up. Yeah.

Don't be too aggressive right out the bat, right off the bat and have to be, you know, not hunting them for another 10 years. Throwing them back on a list because of some challenge or whatever else. It does feel like you guys are, you know, had that in the back of your minds, maybe, maybe from the wolf issue or different things, just basically feels very modest. A thought of it. A modest take, you know, perspective. Yep. And that's, that's really the way we approached it. So could you talk about, um, there, there's kind of two different hunting, I don't want to call them zones cause that's probably the right term, but there's, but there's one grouping of units that, um, you're going to manage under a limited draw, um, strategy that you have unit sub quotas as well as female, female sub quotas involved with them.

And then another pool of permits that is, that is, I'll guess, call it more on the fringe of some of the core grizzly habitat that you're going to have another 12 hunters there. Can you talk about some of the two basic, we probably can't talk about every single X and O within them, but talk about the, those two different, um, management strategies based on the two bigger areas, I guess we're talking about here. Sure. And then that's one thing we haven't talked about yet is this thing that's called, it's a scientific term, but it's called the demographic monitoring area. And essentially that area was developed by scientists, grizzly bear scientists many, many years ago. And really what it defines is, is those areas that are both biologically and socially suitable for grizzly bear occupancy. So inside the DMA, it meets those two criteria outside the DMA. It may not meet those criteria.

In fact, in most cases, it doesn't. Um, some places outside of the DMA, um, are, have some suitable habitats biologically, but doesn't have suitable habitats socially because we know based on past experience that when grizzly bears occupy those areas, they're going to be, yeah, they're going to be in trouble. Doesn't work. Yeah. Doesn't work. You know, the South end of the Wyoming range is a great example. There's a lot of livestock there. There's a lot of human uses. There's a lot of roads. There's not as much remote country. And we know that grizzly bears in the South end of the Wyoming range is something that's not going to work for grizzly bears or people. And so anyway, that's how that line was drawn. And, and really we're held accountable for, um, the population and all those recovery criteria that I talked about, we're, we're held accountable for those within, inside that DMA.

Okay. And essentially bears that are outside the DMA that are either harvested or counted either way, either one don't count towards mortality or the population. Yeah. They're just gravy bears that exist and you're not, your feet aren't held to the fire on those as much because they're, um, it'd be like some of the wolf areas that are outside of the, uh, wolf recovery. Yeah. The ones that wander clear down into Utah and Northern Arizona that are, you know. Classified as a predator. Yeah. So, yeah. And the difference though, with, with grizzly bears and wolves is, is wolves essentially outside of those areas aren't, they're not managed at all. And we, um, still intend to tightly regulate grizzly bears outside of that area. So, um, the thing that's interesting though, is, is there's, you're right. There's no mortality limit or there's no female limits or anything like that outside of the

DMA. Okay. And that's why we can just, you know, issue 12 licenses and we incur no risk there. Those are the, those are the 12 that are, that are, that are drawn. In area seven. And, uh, yeah, those are, we'll call them outside that demographic, you know, delineated area and 12 people go have fun. If you kill one, great. Do you still have a female subcote in there though, within those? No. Nothing in that. So it could be. All 12 could be females. You're not. It won't be, but in theory it could be, I guess. It'd be. Yes. Yep. So 12, 12 guys can go out and not have to call in, not have to wonder if the quota has been met, whatever. Yep. They don't. They wouldn't. Now they do have to report it. Yes. Um, but they wouldn't have to worry about, you know, the quota, like you said. Could you, yeah. And could you briefly describe the unit seven area?

I mean, in terms of geographically where, where roughly that is, I know it's the Southern Wyoming range part of it, but, um, it's more some of the, would you call it fringe? It's the, some of the fringe habitat, right? I mean. Yeah, it is. It's the stuff that's just adjacent to, um, just adjacent to the DMA in areas where we do have, it's, it's considered occupied grizzly bear habitat in most cases. Um, may not have a lot of bears. The densities may be low, but places like the Southern Wyoming range, places like, um, you know, the green river Valley and some of those private lands, um, you know, places east of highway one 20, which is the highway that runs through Cody and Matitsi, um, out in the, out or in the, um, oh, out there in the, in the east, the 15 mile Creek country, east of Matitsi and the McCulloch peaks, east of Powell, southeast of Powell.

So with even low densities, how low does that, what do you mean by that? Like, is it still good, high enough densities, their viable tags or are they just, you know, I, I think they are, I think especially the first year, I think that, um, you know, it's not going to be easy. There are some places where it'll be easier than others, but it's going to be a hunt. Yeah. And that's just my, you know, that's my prediction that it's not going to be like riding up the Grable river in elk hunt area 61 and being able to see, you know, a couple of grizzly bears a day. It will not be like that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the other thing about that area outside of the demographic monitoring areas, we do anticipate that if we have, you know, it's during hunting season or close to hunting season, if we are having problems with a specific bear, we can send hunters that direction. That's great.

So you're going to help. Like you're going to, you're going to, you're, you guys are willing to help hunters. I mean, you obviously want this to be successful. Absolutely. And you want, yeah. If you're going to go kill one yourself, like you said, by a red shirt, you know, one of your employees and he's in, he's in, you know, the, the 12 outside demographic area hunt boundary, um, turn, turn, turn some of the loose direct them there, let them kill it versus, uh, yeah, you just go shoot it and you know, whatever happens to it after that. So. Absolutely. And how could you then let's contrast that area, which is going to be a hunt. Like you said, two, the, I guess we'll just call them the core units where you, where you're going to draw permits, but you're going to do it in a calculated way. You're not going to turn all 12 people.

You could kill 12 bears, but, but you do have a female sub quota within those, um, subunits in place of, I believe two female bears. And once that happens, it shuts down. So really you're going to let each harvest dictate if it stays open or not and kind of talk us through those, those subunits within the core demographic area. You bet. So you, you described that fairly well. Um, there's actually two quotas. There's a, no more than 10 male bears, no more than two female bears. And again, those are numbers that are based on a calculation that is predetermined. So, and if you do that, if you think through the logistics of this, it actually means that you couldn't actually take more than 11 bears because once either one of those quotas, the male or the female quota is reached, it stops the season. Okay.

So if you've killed one female bear and then you kill 10 more males, it shuts it down because you've hit 10 males. If you kill two females and no, no males, you got two. Right. That's right. If you killed all male bears, it would actually stop at 10. Yeah. So, um, so yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a challenge because we do not want to exceed that female mortality limit. Yeah. And so how do you issue licenses, um, to hunters and have them go afield when you've only got two females in the quota and expect to not exceed the quota? Yeah. It's going to happen. So you came up with this stratified one or two hunters at a time approach or tell us how that's going to work. You know, you do a draw, but, but really you're not drawing 12 people all at once and saying you got a tag, but tell us how it's going to work there. Yeah. So it's, we're calling it kind of a priority license issuance list.

And so, you know, you'll put in, we used to do this sentence. Like bison. Bison. Yeah. And you'll put in and you'll get on the list and there'll be a list of names from one to 5,000. And, and, uh, we'll call up number one and number two and say, you know what? You just did better than hitting the lottery. Yeah. You're going hunting. You can't, you're going to kill a bear because even if both of you kill females, you're both going to kill bears. Leave the fire extinguisher home, bring the gun. Yeah. So we'll send those two folks out and we're actually going to give them some training beforehand to try to help them. Judging male. Between male and female. That's what I was wondering if you'd have an online course or how you guys were going to go about that or, you know. Yeah. We're going to give them a, we're just going to give them a course on some of the difference

in their behavior, some of the difference in, um, the, how they appear. And then remember that two thirds of all the females are going to be protected anyway, because they're going to have cubs at their side. And it's not legal to take a bear or the cubs, either one. Yeah. Yeah. Um, if they've got a cub at side. So, so yeah, I mean, it's, uh, the, the tendency is going to be more, it's going to be more likely that people will shoot a male bear versus a female bear. Even if, even if you did it just completely randomly, but we're going to try to even give them more tools so that they're very selective towards a male bear. And, and then we will not allow more than two folks, or I'm sorry, we will not allow any more than what's left in the female quota to be in the field at any one time. So as long as there's two females available, we'll have two hunters in the field. When they get done.

As soon as one female gets harvested from that point forward, it's going to be one person at a time until they harvest. Oh, you killed the male. All right. Go to the list. Just to make sure they call the next kill three females on accident. Yep. That's exactly right. And how long do they have? Let's say Adam and I are the first guys out of the hat, which is probably going to happen. What, how long, how long do we have before you call the next two hunters? Until they kill. So we're going to give you 15, um, the proposal right now is 15 days. Okay. Okay. Season would start. What would be the opening day? Tell for our listeners, what would be the opening day? Yeah. September 15th through November 15th. Okay. And so once we tell you you're it and you can go, you're going to have, um, 15 days to make 15 days.

And, and, and, and, you know, we're still taking some public comment on that and that could change a little bit. Yeah. But, um, some guys want to, might want to apply for a specific 15 day slot. You know what I mean? And you're not really, you can't really assure that. It's like, well, if you're called, you better, you better make your schedule work. I guess if you're called, you could, you could, uh, decline. No, I can't make it that those 15 days. Somebody might do that. And you'd go to the next guy. Yeah. And that could happen that you, or you could have somebody say, well, when I applied, everything was good, but now I can't really spend $6,000 on it. And, and, uh, potential guide, right? This is going to fall within the, this is going to fall within the non-resident big game trophy game wilderness outfitter requirement, I assume, right? It will. Yeah. Yeah.

So any, in, in the wilderness. So if they're not hunting the wilderness. You could go self-guided. It wouldn't, but yeah. Yeah. But a lot of this country's in the wilderness. Yeah. So it's not cheap. And I know one thing that we'll, you know, a lot of people we've heard from already, $6,000, good grief. Well, we just, we tried to point this out in our magazine. This, that was a fee that was automatically took effect based on a legislative fee approved. This is not up for debate right now. It's not like people should be mad at you, Brian. Yeah. It wasn't something that was necessarily in your control. And it might be something in the future that could be, but, but during this comment period that ends April 30th, I mean, they can, they can voice some concerns on that, but don't go off on that because that's set. It's set by legislature. That's what's going to happen this year.

Just like it or not, that's the fee for a non-resident grizzly bear, right? Yeah, that's, that's exactly right. And they, actually the legislature didn't even like recently develop that. No, it's old. It just was in place. If it ever, if it ever got passed, that's what it's going to be. Yeah. Yeah. 6,000 is the largest fee of any Western state for any non-resident tag ever. So that's why it catches people off guard. But maybe, maybe rightfully so. It's a quite a, quite a trophy species really. Just want to take a quick break and thank another one of our sponsors, Red Rock Precision. They make awesome rifles, custom rifles from the action rifle barrel right on up. They can customize the caliber to whatever you want, scope combination, but they shoot all the, all the elite optic companies, scopes. We shoot these guns. They're awesome.

Trusted, long range, great Western hunting rifles for a variety of different species. They've got lighter weight sheep rifles on up to more mountain rifles or even carbon wrap barrel rifles and everything. So give the guys at Red Rock Precision a call. Great guys. Used them for a lot of years. RedRockPrecision.com. So within the, these potential 11 to 12 harvest zones here, there's, there's not, or is there sub quotas? There is sub quotas within subunits, right? You don't want them all to come out of one area. That's exactly right. And there were six of those? And so hunters will have their pick. They can pick where they want to go initially, but, but as those quotas fill up in those areas, they'll have to, you know, if we, if the season does go on that long, they're going to have to go, you know, some of the, some of the stuff up next to the park, for example, where

the quotas are lower, they may have to go somewhere else. So you'll, so guys that come in first, obviously can have their pick of the litter, so to speak. Go wherever they want. And then you kind of, then things might change and adjust in there. So it's not like they're going to say, yeah, I drew this bear and I always wanted to hunt here. That may or may not be available to them. That's correct. How many within that core demographic area you have, how many subunits do you have delineated? And it seems like I saw two on a lot of them, two, a harvest quota of two and a lot of the subunits. But how many subunits do you have it broken into? And. Total of six. Yep. Six units. Two each. Six hundred years. And it's about, you know, there's, there's actually a couple, I think where it's three, but I don't have that ding thing sitting here in front of me, but you know, roughly that's what it is.

Two to three maximum. Yeah. To where if one subunit had two killed in it, you're, that was shut down, but there's still plenty of others. Again, we're talking about areas within those six sub or six zones that have a lot of bears, a lot of bears. I mean, we're, we're talking now about the core. We're expecting high harvest rate. The guy that's aggressive. He, I mean, we're expecting, like you said, the first year, even on, you know, the not non-core area unit. But I mean, overall we're expecting good, good high harvest rates. Is that what you'd agree with? Yeah. I think it's going to be, I think it's going to be a pretty darn good hunt. I mean, even if, you know, you just talked a bit ago about the guy who's got a specific area that he really likes to go. So if he has to go somewhere else, there isn't any of those units where I couldn't go out and find a grizzly bear.

I mean, there's a lot of opportunity. There's a lot of bears. I told you how many bears there are. Yeah. And yeah. And you know, this is going to be a hunt where it's going to be very much kind of a spot and stock kind of a hunt. I think, you know, tracking is going to be pretty important when you're trying to focus on, you know, trying to find a big male bear. I assume most hunters are going to want a big male bear. Yeah. It'd be nice to know how big a track you're really looking for. I mean, for guys that haven't really been trained, you know. You know, five inch, five inch is kind of the number on, on black bear, you know, for Utah. We have, they do a similar online course for trying to increase, you know, male harvest of black bears, you know, five inch front pad or greater, you know, I don't know if you guys have something like that for grizzlies or whatnot.

You guys might go through that course or whatnot. But I mean, for people. Yeah. You know, you're, you're looking at it somewhere in that. Actually a five inch grizzly bear isn't too bad, but you know, six inch bear is definitely a big, mature male bear and there's bigger, you know, there's bigger than six inch tracks. And so you got glassing. What other techniques? Certainly tracking, I think is going to be really important. And I, you know. When the snow fits, especially, right. When you get a little dusting of snow, boom, cut a track and. Maybe, maybe even fire a rifle in the air just because they're used to that. Rifle shot means dead elk. We've heard that, Brian. We've heard that in places like the Thrill Fair and places that, hey, you hear, they hear gunshots and the bears are there before you can get to your dead elk. They're coming.

I suppose that's happened now and then, but it can't be like that, right? I mean. And I can tell you that, you know, I've hunted a lot there myself and I haven't experienced that personally, but you know, enough people have reported that kind of behavior that, and bears are smart. And it wouldn't surprise me if the bears that really hone in on gut piles haven't have some learned behavior. It's not an archery elk season, September. I mean. The old Pavlov's dog philosophy, right? When they, instead of the bell, in this case, it's the 300 wind mag going off and they know, hey, that means food. Any, any electronic calls allowed or anything like that? No. What are prohibited methods? Baiting and calls. It's just going to be spot and stock. True, I guess, mountain hunting. I mean, I guess if you did have a bear on a carcass, found one on it, there's nothing,

you didn't put that out as bait, right? I assume that would be. That's right. Fine. If it's a naturally occurring or even a hunter remains of a carcass. Like you guys have problem bears in certain areas. So there's, I mean, obviously you could construe that as baiting, you know, if there's, if they're on some kind of natural type dump or whatever, but anyway. Yeah. Placed baits though will not be allowed inside the DMA and we are going to have that available as an option outside the DMA, but it's under very limited circumstances when we're trying to really target a bear and require a permit issued by the department and that kind of stuff. That could be a possibility. You're going to want to be very, watch it very closely, even more than like black bear bait stations that you get registered. Like we don't want a problem arising because we're deliberately trying to draw on grizzlies

in a certain wrong drainage or wherever else. Right. That's cool. So anything else you want to bring up as far as the, you know, hunting techniques, no electronic calls. I guess maybe hand calls, put Bronson out there acting like a dying rabbit and me just want to hold back. I'm not going to be that guy. Yeah. You know, I'm what those archery hunters tell me. Yeah. Yeah. Doing a cow call might bring a bear in, but I can also tell you I've done a lot of cow calling and I've never had a bear for that even when I'm around a lot of bears. Yeah. But, but I really think tracking, tracking is going to be a big deal. Even without snow, um, you get on the bears like to move on the path of least resistance. You got a lot of rain too. And so they. Fresh tracks in a lot of that country. Yeah. They walk the trails all the time and keeping your eye on, on places where bears are going to frequent.

Um, you know, Hey, yesterday, this track wasn't here. It is here today. Um, I think that's going to be a pretty effective method to know kind of what you got in the area. You know, you're, if you got a, a four and a half inch track and then a two or three little tiny sets of prints next to it, you're not going to waste your time. No, you're not. You don't want to, you don't want to run into her anyway. You don't want to even see her. No. Yeah. Not without the fire extinguisher. So tell us, tell us, I know you've got to go and you've got a big day ahead of you, but just want to kind of move into like, what kind of pushback are you seeing? And then how can we get involved to help you? And obviously this is a very minimal amount of take compared to the numbers we're talking. It's a very, it's kind of like putting the, you know, putting your toe in the hot water, so to speak.

You're not just jumping in. I mean, just, so tell us about the pushback and then, uh, you know, that if there is any, and then how we can get involved. I know Adam talked to even a fellow hunter that was maybe somewhat against it and, but wasn't fully educated. Tell us a little bit about that, Adam, and then let's go in and allow Brian. Talk about the pushback a little bit and then how we can get involved. Well, this is, as you all know, Brian, this is about for, for people that don't want grizzly bears to ever be hunted. It's more about perception than the reality of the situation, meaning the seven to 1200 bears that you are comfortably know are in existence there. And we're talking about potentially, I guess, best case, worst case, however you want to look at it from their perspective or ours, 23 to four bears potentially being removed. And we're talking Wyoming.

I think Idaho, I've seen a proposal floating out of like one bear, but you know what I mean? Such a very small number. And that's if it was a very perfect situation in your, in your core area. And they, they killed the 11 or so there and all the people in the, in the outside of the demographic area killed, uh, killed bears, which is probably not going to happen, but that's the worst case it could be. So it's more, but, but they can portray it as grizzly bears are now going to be slaughtered again. They're open, blah, blah, blah. It's about perception. And I did, I get jumped, I got jumped the other day by a, by a, a hunter from Wyoming. He was from Wyoming and just thought we were asinine for trying to encourage people for going to provide public input to support your proposal, Wyoming Game and Fish proposal, um, to once again,

have hunting as a mechanism to help, um, help harvest bears and to somewhat curb their unregulated growth. Um, you know, things that we've already talked about and his thing, he just said, he says, you can't tell me that, that this, that we're going to main, be able to maintain the kind of bears, you know, so that's what people come to Wyoming for is to see grizzly bears. That's what makes us unique. And I agreed with all of it, but it was like, I was talking to him about the proposal that you guys had put forth and how minimal I thought that that was even going to have no effect, uh, no effect really on the whole population. It's a start, but it's going to have no effect on the population. With the numbers we're talking about, you could probably take 20 bears out of each little sub unit. You know what I mean?

And, and, and, and, and yeah, then you're starting to see an effect, but 23, 24 max statewide, uh, with the kind of numbers you're talking about, such a minimal effect. And that's Adam's point is, you know, we've been paying for the $50 million been coming out of sportsman. I mean, at some point there's gotta be some, we regulate everything else. Why, why should we not regulate grizzlies, especially to this recovery extent? Uh, what would be your take on that, Brian? Yeah. So, so, so, you know, there's definitely some people who, um, you're, you're exactly right, who don't understand all the science here and it's complex. And so I understand that. Um, I, I sympathize with the person who, who doesn't understand the, you know, the, what it really means, the scale and the person, and I'll just say this, you guys are exactly right. What we're really talking about here is 11 bears.

Uh, that, that population estimate of 700 bears. And where I told you there's science that indicates there's as many as 1200 bears. That's only in the demographic monitoring area. So we're talking in that area where recovery is actually measured where the population is estimated is 11 bears. What's your estimate outside? What's your estimate outside the DMA? You know, we just, we just don't collect information there. We don't have a great, but let's say it's 200, whatever, 300. I don't know. Let's say it's a hundred. Yeah. You know, it's not that many. It's really not that many. 50, 50 bears. Even you're turning 12 people loose and realizing the encounter, you know, you may kill a handful of bears. Who knows? We'll see. But yeah. So I guess, yeah. Boiling it back, like you said, which is perfect. The core, the area that your, your feet are held to the fire of and Idaho game and fish

and Montana fish, wildlife and parks. And is that core demographic area of minimum 700. And we're talking about removing 11 strategically up to 11, you know, strategically. We're talking 0.01%. Yeah. We're talking about really nothing. Right. And it's a start. And we understand Brian, why we applaud you starting conservatively because we want to see this start and then as, you know, you guys show and have data here, here's what we're taking and the numbers are still growing or we're still having more and more conflicts or whatever you can add to that discussion and, and then gradually can increase. You have more reason to add a layer of, you know, Hey, all right, next year, I think we can add a little bit more. And so, yeah, you're, we applaud that. And, and, and I think you got your hands full. I mean, the, the public comment period is open now to the 30th of April.

And tell us about that a little bit. Are you getting some, you getting some pushback and, and, and do you want hunter feedback and where can they go? Well, I, you know, I, we want, we want people who are interested in grizzly bears to provide their thoughts. Yeah. And, and so certainly you guys are obviously very passionate and you have a listenership that's very passionate. And I would encourage you and your listeners to, you know, submit comments and it's, you can go on our website and figure out how to do it. And I, and I also encourage the folks that you described earlier that are opposed to this to do the same thing. You know, that's what the purpose of the, of, of this process is, is to get feedback from the public. So I'll tell you though, there's another group. Um, you, you know, you described the, the hunter who's a pro hunter who, um, doesn't understand

necessarily all the complexities in the biology. Um, but you know, maybe could understand it better if they had all the facts. There's also folks that are just adamantly opposed to hunting in general. And there are folks that are just adamantly opposed to any kind of grizzly bear hunting. And, and those folks, you know, there, it doesn't matter what you tell them about the biology. They just don't philosophically agree with, they don't agree with hunting, um, grizzly bears. It's just not something, you know, there's the argument about, well, you don't have to take the meat. Um, it's strictly trophy hunting, you know, that, that argument is certainly out there and, and our commission will be hearing that. Um, but so, so what I tell you is, is that it's, it's good for anybody who's interested to submit comments.

And the other thing I would just tell you is, is that, you know, our, our commission is very good at weighing public comment and, and doing the right thing for the people who they manage wildlife for and trust. And that's really the end of the day and or Wyoming lies the citizens of the state. And so, you know, uh, the game and fish commission is, um, believers in hunting as a management tool. They're believers in the North American model. And they know that we've done this effectively with other species, you know, like, um, black bears, mountain lions, and wolves. So what, what I, what I think is important to understand too, is, is there's still litigation that's going on out there. And at the end of the day, the commission could pass this thing. Um, and I, my prediction is they will pass it. Um, and we could still not have a hunting season depending on how litigation goes.

And I bring that up because we've certainly seen it happen before. Yeah. No, there's no doubt. There's no doubt. When, when, yeah, in the past, when, when things have been stopped, it's been based on litigation, not based on policy decisions. Or good proper management. And I think what's, what's, uh, nice and what, you know, we, and you know, is that you guys have come forward with something that seems reasonable and presented the facts. There's a lot of us, uh, you know, out here that, you know, don't necessarily live in Wyoming, don't understand it, haven't, haven't, uh, educated ourselves fully. And that's what we kind of wanted to do on this podcast is to just get a little more feeling of what's gone on and, and to create the policies that you've presented and, uh, and the hunting seasons and regulations and whatnot.

And so I think that's, what's, what's great about it is just to educate the hunters. So, you know, of course we're pro hunting, everybody's pro hunting, but, but it's nice to feel like you've got a program that you can get behind and, and truly support, uh, with proper biology. So, sure. Yep. Regarding, um, public comment period ends the 30th of April. Then I believe the 23rd or 4th of May, I'm going off of memory. That's when your commission meeting is scheduled to meet. Is that the right timeframe? Yeah. The 23rd of May in Lander at 10 o'clock in the morning is when the commission will meet. And right now they're only scheduled to just address this issue. Probably be a full room. It's probably going to be. I am guessing it's going to be a full room. And then after that, you, you know, obviously your anticipation and our, ours is as well

as it'll get passed as proposed or modified or whatever. And currently you have a July, early July application period for the hunts we've described. And so I guess we'll just have to stay tuned. Um, obviously on your Wyoming Game of Fish website as to the outcome of the commission meeting. And then what happens between late May and early July application process. And then what happens potentially from late July till September 15th. You know, I mean, it's, it's, uh, it's going to be an evolution, I guess, as, as the summer progresses. Yeah. Yeah, it will. Yeah. And actually, well, the first season actually is, it will be September 1st out. But that's the areas outside of the DMA and then the areas inside the DMA are, are, uh, September 15th. Yeah. Well, we did want to mention too, for, for our listeners, we do publish a monthly publication from December through June in the April issue.

Um, page seven and Adam, Adam's comments here. Um, you can go to HTTPS colon backslash backslash wgfd.yo.gov backslash get hyphen involved, uh, backslash public hyphen meetings to kind of view what we've talked about, view the proposals and whatnot. And then you may print and mail a comment card or you may go online, uh, and provide your comments online by April 30th, like Adam said. And so we encourage everybody that's listening, uh, to do that, to go online. You could fish your way through it and find it without just, uh, typing in what I said, but we do encourage everybody to do that. And, and, uh, Brian, we just want to tell you how much we appreciate you taking time out of your schedule. I know you're busy and, uh, we do have to wrap this up. And so anyway, it's kind of exciting from our perspective, you got a, something new species

to apply for and maybe even draw, which obviously I'm sure the, the odds, like you said, it'd be, you know, a lot better winning the lottery than, than getting a bear tag. So. Yeah, that's probably a true, true statement. Well, I appreciate it. Hey, thank you guys. I appreciate your, uh, I appreciate your time and it was great to have this, uh, conversation with you and discuss something that I'm certainly pretty darn passionate about as are you. And that's wildlife and specifically grizzly bears. Well, thanks again. And we may have you back on again, pending the commission meeting and application period and how it all shakes out. We may have you on one more time just to talk about anything that might change based on the way it's presented and out in front of us right now. So, but thanks again for your time, Brian. You betcha. You guys take care.

And as the chief game warden, go easy on guys out there. All right. All right. I did, you know, I did hear about your son having a tag and, um, you know, just keep in mind that, uh, you know, we'll be keeping a watchful. Oh, I'm sure with pinging phones this day and age, don't worry.

He will be shooting his first elk. So I'm way, I'm way excited. And we sure. Cool. And we do. We sure appreciate it. He had six points and, and I've been applying for years. And so he's super excited. The kid's 17, going to be 18 this winter. And so anyway, as you know, and I don't know if you've got kids, but I mean, they, they get ready to leave the nest and, and I get nervous. And so we've loaded him with tags this year. So. Yeah. I'll tell you what, it's pretty cool. I hunt with my son and, and, uh, hunting some of the places you guys talked about actually up there in 61. And, uh, we sure have a good time. And, and, uh, he's, there's, there's not a lot of outdoor experiences that are better than being able to do it with your boy. Well, what's crazy about Wyoming, you guys have a lot of desert country.

And of course they're known for antelope and, and, and deer and elk and everything, but the wildlife is unbelievable. Even out in that desert country, it's a, it's just crazy. The ducks and geese and predators and whatnot. It's just a awesome state. And, uh, it's a state we don't miss. We, we, we apply for it every single year. So anyway, thank you for that. You bet. You guys take care and we'll talk to you soon. Appreciate it. Thanks, Brian. Talk to you later. So we do have a 2018 Epic Outdoors cover contest where we give away Vortex vinyls, the 15 by 56 Kaibabs. We do want to thank Vortex for their sponsorship here at Epic Outdoors. They do have great optics at a great price point. Um, raised my kids on Vortex. And so anyway, we do appreciate them. They have lifetime warranty. So a lot of great, uh, different models there at Vortex.

So to view the different products they have or find a dealer, uh, you can go to vortexoptics.com. So anyway, they've got their catalog shows and events as well as you can call them at 1-800-426-0048.