EP 101: Hunting Back in The Good Old Days, 60+ years on the Mountain.

You've seen everything from 1940s or 50s all the way till nowadays. You just have to love the outdoors, have the will to hunt, and get out there and do it. Anything to do with Western big game. Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter here with the Epic Outdoors Podcast. Coming at you from here in southern Utah, and got an awesome guest on the phone. Super excited to get started into this. I've tried to get this guy for years, and I've known him for a long, long time. Clear back early 2000s. And anyway, he lives in Montana. Mr. Ron Jenkins, a wealth of hunting experience. Spent tons and tons of time out in the field and hunted a lot of different animals. So, anyway, super appreciative of him taking some time out of his schedule and visiting.

Before we do get started, I want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring the podcast and really appreciate them and all that they do for Epic. We do want to throw a little shout out to Kent's Optics. They have great prices, the best of anywhere I've seen. Been out in the field and ordered up binos and had them sitting at my house in one day. So, anyway, give these guys a call. It's 435-257-7014. If you were telling them Jason and Adam sent you, I'm sure they'll make you a screaming deal. You can also go to kentoptics.com. I do want to also thank another advertiser of ours, Thompson Long Range, and we appreciate them and their support. He needs an affordable rifle that can shoot a thousand yards, you ought to look at them. They're using Weatherby rifles, 3378s, the 300s, 7mm, 270s, 65, 300s, 257s, 240s, a wide variety of options there using Leupold

It's got a little optics and a reticle system. Great guys, well worth visiting with, very affordable, and it kills a lot of stuff. I killed my 270-inch mule deer with their rifle. So, anyway, don't hesitate to give them a call. It's ThompsonLongRange.com or 435-713-4248. Let's talk about Outdoor Edge knives. We've partnered with Outdoor Edge. They've got some incredible knives coming out. What a great product. And so, anyway, you can check out the different knives they offer at www.outdooredge.com or ask an Outdoor Edge dealer at your local sporting goods store. So, anyway, let's get started with Ron here. He killed a lot of sheep, tons and tons of sheep and elk and deer, And guided along the way, as well as taxidermist, still does taxidermy by trade at 77 years old. And so, he's one of those guys, he's a prime example of a guy that never quits, and he's still

lion hunting by himself with his dog, and still out hunting, you know, all the time. So, it's pretty impressive. He's putting in the time year after year after year, and never gonna quit. So, anyway, let's get started. Ron, you on the phone? Yes. Maybe just give us a little background and kind of what got you started, and then we can kind of dive into, you know, what you love to do and some of your favorite animals to hunt. Okay. Well, I was born in a small town of probably 500 people. I live now in Augusta, Montana, which is, you know, the people that are familiar with Montana, it would be west of Great Falls about 50 miles. In this town I was born in, it's Fairfield. It's about 20 miles from Augusta, and it's in the irrigation district. This country basically is in the middle of what they call a Sun River country.

The Sun River drainage comes out of the National Forest to the west of us here. It's a big drainage and runs from the mountain front to Great Falls. It flows into Missouri. It's probably 75 miles, but there's a plateau in its Fairfield. They call it the Fairfield Banch. It used to be great pheasant hunting. And it was all irrigated land from the Southern River. They built a big canal in probably the 2030s, the CCC, Civil Conservation Corps. Anyway, I guess, so I grew up and went to school in Furfield, but I basically kind of grew up in the mountains too, because when I was about international When I was 21 years old, my dad and uncle, they were ardent hunters and liked the outdoors. There was some cabin permits that came up in the National Forest here, right on the edge of the Bob Marshall. The wilderness, it's from the mountain edge boundary back in the mountains about 20 miles.

It's the furthest into the mountains anywhere along here. There's only cabin. You know, public cabin sites, giving out to the public. Anyway, my dad and uncle built a cabin there, so I grew up, we were up there every weekend. You know, during the summer and the winter, it was snowed in, of course, you couldn't get there. But it was a great area for elk. There was a lot of mule deer at the time. There isn't now. You know, at the time, there was a lot of mule deer. Yeah. There's four or five different major herds of bighorn sheep in the center of our country. And the one that was furthest to the southwest was the Fairview Willow Creek area herd. It amounted at the time probably to 100 sheep, maybe 125. These sheep, the rams, there's a big plateau in there that sits back in the middle of the mountains there

Where these sheep basically lived, and this country is, the mountain front mainly, is a series of reefs and valleys. You know, it's kind of hard to explain, unless you've actually seen it, but the reefs run parallel to each other, and it's a great sheep country. Anyway, the rams in this particular area would migrate, as soon as the snow left, would migrate back into the Continental Divide. You could get up on a ridge behind our cabin and see the whole divide, and you'd drop into the west. I'm sure the people on the phone probably are familiar with the Continental Divide. Anyway, I used to, when I was a kid from that hill behind the cabin, I used to watch those rams move down and just here into the timber and cross the river. And it's like, I don't know, it's a crow flies, maybe 20, 25 miles. And where they summered was a, you know, really neat.

There was a big reef there, and a basin they called it. They had a basin creek, and that's where, at one time, when I was guiding for outfitters, I'd seen as many as 60 rams in different pockets in this basin. But that's kind of where I got wound up with big orange sheep. And then, there was an outfitter, well-known outfitter, that had a ranch probably three miles We elk hunted a lot, and he was the only elk hunter at the time. We had horses, but we were not that great of packers at the time, so we used to have Dan Neal pack our elk out, and I got to know him pretty well. At the time, pack, and it was probably six, eight miles into this place, we hunted elk. It was pack country, and he would pack. He would bring

He was a string of horses. There was a lot of elk in there, and everybody usually filled up in the first two or three days. He'd bring his crew, and he was in there and packed those elk out for like $10 a piece. What year are you talking? Well, that would have been in the early 50s. Okay. Well, not too early. 52 through 56, 57. And even in, you know, nearly 60, he was still charging like 15. And so you're talking, you're probably in your teens or 20? Well, right. You know, I first started hunting elk, I guess, with my dad when I was about 13 or 14, and it was a yearly deal.

It was a yearly deal. When the sea didn't open, that's where we were at, because it was a big open hillside, and you had to go back up a big canyon. It was kind of a major deal getting in there, but we kind of had it all to ourselves. Other people didn't know about it, and it was too far off the road for anybody to hike in there. Did you have to deal with grizzlies back then? Am you still dealing with all that? You know, there were grizzlies around, but not, you know, they weren't, it wasn't a problem. You know, you're in the heart of grizzly country, and I don't remember at the time seeing a grizzly. Yeah. They were there, but you know, you just don't see them very often. Yeah, kind of not. They're smart animals and secretive, and you just don't see them that often. But they were, you know, like we're fishing down over from the cabin down the South Fork of the Sun River.

On the trail, there was always big grizzly tracks, so they were around. Yeah. But you're very seldom ever, you know, there was a lot of problems with them. There's a period of time, I don't know, in the 60s and 70s, where they had a lot of problems with grizzlies, and there wasn't as many around then. I don't know what the deal was, it just, They killed mostly calves. This is a big ranching area, so there's a lot of cattlemen around. You're okay, but calves were the biggest prey. They were easy to kill. At the time, you could buy a grizzly tag over the counter, but there wasn't very many of them shot. Wow, you could just buy a grizzly tag over the counter. Oh, yeah. I had a grizzly tag every year. It was the most fun animal to hunt that there was, really.

Your chances of getting one were next to zero, but just the adventure in hunting a grizzly, especially if you had snow on the ground, could track them. But about 999 times out of 1,000, they'd hear you coming. They're a smart animal, really smart. I have no doubt in my mind that they can reason like a man. If you'd seen a grizzly, it was maybe a glimpse. Their best chance of getting one was probably to find one or catch one, and that's basically why most of them were killed. People would kill elk and then go back in the next day to pack them out or whatever. You can see a grizzly on the gut pile or on the quarters, and they get a chance to get one. Did you ever end up killing one when you could hunt them? No, at the time, you know, I had the opportunity more than once, but not. The first grizzly I got would have been, I don't know, and I tracked this grizzly.

It would have been in the 70s. We used to pack into an area here that was pretty good elk hunting, We had one picture morning, it was a fresh girly track on the Divide. A friend of mine and I tracked him, and it was perfect, because it was fresh snow, it was snowing, it was about a foot of snow. His tracks went down off the top of a mountain they call Caribou Mountain, and right down the divide on the old horse trail, and then went down into a drainage. We, of course, knew what we had done earlier before, but it was perfect. It was quiet. Anyway, a friend of mine and I got within about—we could see where they went under a big spruce tree to We lay down, and we stopped probably 50 yards from the tree. He knew, even as quiet as he were at that distance, a little bit of snow fell off a branch right above where he was

vetted there. He stuck his head out. I was ready, and I shot him right under the chin. He never He knew it hit him. He was a nice bear, probably 7, 7 1⁄2 foot. He probably weighed 400, maybe 5. Just a really pretty grizzly. When did they quit letting you hunt them? Do you remember? I do. It was like the last time he could hunt them was in like 91. Okay. And they had a spring season, and I think the year before, possibly it was before then, but I can remember this was an opportunity to hunt barely yet, but it was a permit. They issued 40 tags, and it was for males, for boars, on the mountain front here in the spring. It opened in April. Anyway, two friends of mine drew tags. I didn't have one. A local rancher friend of mine had a tag. It was on the mountain front here, so of course he got a hold of me right away after he drew a tag.

And I told him, we were after a bear that was, I had seen him, I used to spend a lot of time in the spring I'm riding with my horses and picking up bell counters on the frontier. Yeah. Anyway, every spring I see this grizzlies track. And we were headed over there to hunt this particular bear, and on the way, it was right at daylight. It was about, I don't know, 15, 20 inches of fresh snow. It had just dumped a bunch of snow. There's a ranch, a big ranch just out of Augusta, well, the land starts on the edge of Augusta, but it's probably 10 miles out. We hit a ridge, and we could see a spot way over on these open hillsides. It was after the 88 fire. They used to be all timber. The 88 fire just de-timbered this country big time. You know, it burnt, I don't know what, you know, the fire started in the back country and burnt the whole damn mountain frontier. Yeah.

Thousands and thousands of acres. Jeez. So, it was all whooping, but this bear, evidently, had just come out of hibernation. We could see if he was working his way around the frontier. So, we watched him, and he bedded down in a big thicket of an old dove. It was all fir trees, all burnt. But you could see him laying down in there. So, I stayed there and watched the bear. Well, my friend and my other buddy went back to town to talk to the rancher to get permission to go in after this bear. So, they come back, and we got as close as we could and took off a foot. And we got, it was actually perfect. It was a big ravine there, and this bear was laying in this burnt timber probably 300 yards from us. And we got up on a point where we were kind of hidden. There was some green timber left there.

Yeah. And watch this bear. And Mark didn't want to attempt to shot him laying down, so we just watched that bear for, I don't know, two or three hours. Like I said earlier, these bears are a tremendously smart animal. And he could, even though the wind was right, but he had no chance of winding us, he said something was wrong. Yeah. And I'm sure, you know, at that range, he didn't see us. We were careful about movement. But he started swinging his head, and this was probably an hour or two after we first started watching him. And he got up, and Mark thought about shooting then, but it wasn't really a good shot. But then the bear started moving fairly fast up to the timber, so we lost that opportunity. Yeah. Anyway, he didn't want to shoot at him moving, but it was too far. So, he had a moving animal.

Yeah. Anyway, as soon as he broke out of sight, we run like a set of guns across this canyon and up on the next ridge. And by that time, he was down in another pocket and moving up toward the high ridge. And he knew we were after him. It was that simple. Wow. And he had never seen it, as far as I know. It's just kind of weird. But like I say, the bears are something else. He was the last chance Mark had to shoot him. He was actually moving too fast, and he got way up on us. Mark was a fan of a .340 Weatherby, a cannon. Anyway, this bear was going up a pretty steep slope, and he stopped for a minute. Mark was laying down in the snow, and he was ready for him.

He shot, and I can't remember where he hit, but he didn't hit the bear, and the bear got up, run up, and he stopped again, and he shot, and it was good. The bear dropped, you know, like a dead immediately. He made a hell of a shot on him. Wow. Beautiful bear. It's about, I don't know, the bear probably weighed 500-600 pounds, and he's an 8, 8 1⁄2 foot bear. Geez, wow. Wow. A beautiful grizzly. What a trophy. Unbelievable. Yeah, they are. You know, the ultimate, really. Yeah. As far as mountain hunters. Yeah. Did you, so did you guide, like, when you were younger, did you start guiding for a living, or just get into taxidermy? Well, I did, you know, I was after I got out of high school, I wasn't real sure I wasn't that great a student, you know. I didn't care about school that much, but I'm trying to remember when I went to work.

This officer I told you about that had a ranch close to the cabin there, I started working for him, and that was before—it would have been in 1960. Just right after high school? Yeah. That's when I first started guiding sheep hunters. But, 1961, I think we had two or four sheep hunters that fall. And at the time, it's hard to explain, but there wasn't really any big sheep in the Sun River. If there was, it was abnormal. And even after that, I started doing taxidermy, I guess, in 1965 here in Augusta. And for several years, you know, 7-8's curl was huge. You know, most of the rams they're bringing in were 3-4 curls. But that first year, the second year, I guess, there was a hunter from my hometown had a tag, and I don't think he'd even been hunting yet. They were waiting for the rams to start rutting. And the season at that particular time, I think, closed the 15th of November.

Now, it's open until around the first of December. Anyway, we were right down at the water, and we'd been seeing quite a few sheep, because we'd been hunting elk pretty heavy up in this area, where there are quite a few big horn. And these guys were partiers. And Augusta at the time was well known for that. You know, the hunters would come here, a lot of them, but wouldn't even make it out of town to go hunting. They'd just get a hotel and drink. You know, there were a lot of whiskey drinkers at the time. Anyway, these guys, I called them up and told them that they needed to get up there. They had two days left this season. Anyway, they made it to Augusta, and I had to come to town and get them. And they made it up there. We went up that afternoon, it was snowing heavy, and I don't know, this guy wasn't watching.

He had his rifle slung back, and he scabbored. Anyway, he caught on a branch, and he pulled out of the... And there was other rifles he could use. He didn't want to hunt with anything, but his own rifle. But the next morning, we went out. We had to spend about three hours trying to... Of course, it was trash, so we found his gun eventually. Jeez. Then we went up on a big mountain called Furry Mountain, and it was snowing pretty heavy, and there's a big canyon. There were about 30, 40 sheep down there, and there was a half a dozen rams, but there was two rams, and we don't know where the hell they came from. They probably came at the time. There was a small herd of bighorns that had been there forever back in the wilderness area, and they had evidently pulled in there to rut. We had never seen them before, and

He hunted that forever. But they were both giant ram, but one was pretty spectacular. Anyway, we went down the ridge, we were close enough to get a shot, and this guy started shooting at this ram. He was so shaky, he couldn't hit him. He stopped again, and that's when he killed him. We got down to that ram. Well, the ram was huge. The ram ended up, I don't know what it is in the record book now, but it scored 196. Jeez. And it was like 45 inches on both sides and broomed, you know, probably 6 inches and broomed off. The round would have went way up in the record book and over 200 inches, but he was really light-based. He was only like 14 5-8s on the base, you know, and still scored 196. That's when I got hooked on Bighorn. Geez. You talked about a lot of mule deer back when you were really young. Do you remember seeing any just giant non-typicals or anything crazy, you know?

Well, I did. You know, at the time, I guess, a person already didn't know that much about, you know, you didn't see that much in write-ups or whatever on big mule deer bucks. You didn't You know what was big and what, you know, of course you knew, you know, when you saw a group of deer or one or two bucks, if there was something very big there, you knew it. But you didn't really know what the extent of big was. But anyway, I think one of the first hunts that went on, there was a, between the town of Fairfield and Shoto, It was the next town over from Augusta, there's a couple of buttes. They're called Priest Butte and Rattlesnake Butte. Well, we used to hike on them, buttes when we were kids. I can remember seeing some really nice field deer bucks. So, the first year that opened up, I think I was 14 or 15, I talked Dad into hunting there opening morning.

We went out there and took off a foot and got up there. There's kind of a rim of cliffs around it. The top is fairly open, but there are different rock outcroppings. We were walking along the top of this cliff, and these mule deer bucks were bed at the bottom of these cliffs. Well, there was a nice four-point jumped up. And the rifle I was using at the time was, Dad had bought an old armory rifle, and it was a 765 Mauser. And, you know, open sight, and maybe he had a peep sight. Anyway, when I shot this buck, I hit him in the head, and his horns just flopped over. I about cried when I got over there. Yeah, we all went for my first decent buneer buck, and I ruined it. They were fixable, but it just wasn't the same. Anyway, we took care of this deer and walked on around the beautiful ways, and Dad shot a nice four-point.

And when we were walking, going down to get this buck, I looked up the canyon. It was kind of a pass there, and there was a buck standing in that notch that was absolutely huge. And I can still see that, you know, it's the type of buck you were talking about. It was a big, non-typical. And I don't know, you know, it was just— Giant. I begged Dad to let me shoot that deer. Of course, he wouldn't do it. It was stupid for me to ask. It already filled my tag. But that's probably the first really, really, and it's probably one of the biggest bucks I've ever seen. I don't know what ever happened to that buck. He probably died old age. And the horns withered away out there in a canyon somewhere. But there was big herds of mule deer then on the mountain front that were amazing. Just lots and lots of deer.

Well, Montana's got great genetics, some incredible genetics. It's just their management doesn't allow these deer to get old anymore, you know? You know, for anybody that has a tag, you know, there's very few areas in Montana where you have to, or it's restricted where you have to apply. You know, maybe half a dozen at the most. Yeah. But most of the season is wide open. Well, to have a season that runs about the first December of a year, you know, for the last 10-15 years, how can you expect to be any decent bucks left? Yeah, rifle rut hunting over the counter for you guys. Well, right. Well, they're just, you know, they probably feel some pressure to make, you know, some of the residents just want to make sure they have a tag in their pocket. They don't care, you know, about quality, and so that's who they're catering to, you know. That's what it is, but I don't understand

it. Yeah. What's your favorite? I mean, obviously, you've hunted a lot of different species. We'll get into your sheep, you know, where you killed all four species of sheep and whatnot. But what's your favorite? What's your favorite to hunt? I know you had a tag here in Nevada, and you still apply in Utah. You and I were talking about where to apply today and use your points. You've got a lot of points built up, but what's your favorite species to hunt? Well, I, you know, I only hunted stone sheep once, and that was in 1973. Actually, I lucked into that. I was guiding hunters for an elk for a year. They used to have late season hunts here because they figured they wouldn't get the kill on their elk during the regular season, so they'd have the season run clear into January and February. They were still coming out of the mountains, and sometimes, you know, it hadn't got any weather.

So, there was two hunters from Minnesota that I guided up there. We were hunting, it was 40 vol. It was unbelievably cold. You had no business out there hunting, but, you know, people, for a chance, the elk were moving out in mass, so it was easy to kill an elk. That was back in the wool and flannel days, just straight up flannel, you know? Yeah, it was different. Yeah, right. Exactly. 40 below. Yeah, yeah. Before these fellows left, they told me they had to hunt for stone sheep in northern British Columbia, actually on the Toad River for that fall. That winter, they called me up and they said, we'll make a deal with you. We'll pay for you to stone sheep hunt, and you can come up and hunt with us. If you take us hunting there in Montana, whenever we come out, we'll hunt elk or deer. Yeah.

And I agreed to that in a second. So, that fall in September, we drove up, and we were hunting with Southwicks. Okay. Southwicks have the area on a tour river. I can't remember who's got it now. I knew the outshitter had it. They bought it from Southwicks. I can't remember his name now. Anyway, it was tremendous. It was an all-species hunt. They bargained with this outshitter. They would have only needed hunters that fall. You know what this all-species hunt cost? What was that? $1,800. Wow. We just killed, and we got like a 41-inch stone ram, a beautiful ram. Wow. All three of us got stone sheep, goats, two caribou, two moose, you know, for $1,800. Unbelievable. Yeah, $1,800 for all species. Right. Unbelievable, each guy. Yeah, it was. Wow. Unbelievable.

And I'm trying to remember the first, okay, the same guy is, I guess it was 1976, one of the fellows, he said he had a chance to go up and hunt dull sheep in a brooks range. So, I talked with the alfabetter, this alfabetter said if I could line up three or four hunters for him, he said I'd like to come hunt for nothing. And at the time, being a tax-nerver, I didn't make very much money, so a hunt like this was out of reach for me. So, we went up, and that was my first doll sheep, and it was in the Hula Hula River. And the Hula Hula River at the time had the highest concentration of doll sheep anywhere in North America. I think they figured it was maybe as high as 2,500 doll sheep in that drainage. So, it was a tremendous hunt. I think the ram I killed was only like 36, but it was a full-curl sheep, but nice ram. It was an experience.

So, that was my first doll sheep, and the next one was a trade hunt. I knew a fellow, and you probably heard of him, You heard of him? The other name was Dick Idle. Yeah. Well, Dick, I got to know him pretty well. At that time, he was wheeling and dealing big time in whitetail horns. You know, I can remember some of the loads of whitetail horns. And he had a cabin of residence over at Seedy Lake, and he would buy like a whole truckload. He'd find these old timers that collected whitetail horns and buy them for a little of nothing. And it was just unbelievable, some of those rocks. He brought a truckload from an old-timer to collect them in Maine, and I've got a bunch of pictures of the antlers, but it was something else. Wow. Anyway, he knew, I think Dick had been a taxidermist in Alaska for a while, so he knew a lot of the outfitters and people up there.

And I told him I liked to hunt a doll sheep again, so he knew a fellow that would take me to a doll sheep hunt and trade for antelope and deer in Montana. Basically, I worked most of these hunts that you could trade with people in. You know, they wanted to come to Montana to hunt. Yeah. So, anyway, I went up, and the fellow I went with, him and his girlfriend, they were sheep hunters. We flew. I had no idea where we were going to hunt. We ended up going to a place I dreamed about hunting. It was where the biggest sheep, biggest all sheep in the world come from, the head of the Chitner River. Yeah. And, you know, Ram Glacier and Bernard Glacier, and it was, I believe, Ram Glacier for the world record was killed. And the first ram we saw, there was a huge ram there, and the rams run down off this plateau onto a big cliff.

We went after this ram while we got down there. We looked down on a rock ledge down about 50 yards, And there's five rams standing there, and that one ram was... I didn't realize how big this ram was. But anyway, he said, you need to shoot that sheep. And I said, I'm not going to shoot that sheep. I said, that ram's going to fall off that ledge down into that rock pile down there, and he's going to probably pop his horns off. He said, we can retrieve, we can retrieve it. And if he tears his cape up, we'll get you another one. Well, I didn't shoot the sheep. We waited him out, and he just stayed put. Anyway, the next day, we left. It got dark. We went back to camp, and the next morning, his girlfriend took off. He wanted to get her around, and the sheep had left, and he couldn't find them anywhere. Yeah, so he lived.

Anyway, this other fellow and I went back to McCarthy to get fuel. We got back, and this other fellow and his girlfriend had killed a nice ram. And he told me that there was three more rams there, and that they were all nice sheep, but they were actually bigger than one she killed. We went after the sheep. There was three rams. They were really nice sheep. There was one 36 or 37. Anyway, I was shooting uphill really steep. I ended up with just a 36-inch ram. And that was my second doll ram. The next one was a trade hunt. I'd taken a pilot from Alaska. He'd come down here with one of the same guys that had arranged this hunt before. I took a whitetail hunt, and they killed some really nice whitetail bucks. I told him that I loved hunting doll sheep, and I wanted to get a really nice ram at some point.

He said, well, I can help you out on that. This fellow, at the time, he had done a lot of flying. At the time, he was flying for a well-known fisherman out there. He could spot sardines or herring. They used to fly and spot those big groups of herring from the area so they could put nets around them. Anyway, he said that there was a ram in a walk-in area there that was a really dandy ram, and he'd been watching him. So that fall, I went up. Okay, his fur plane was broke down, because he was going to fly me into a high mountain lake to go after these rams we spotted, and his fur plane broke down. He had Sam fly me in there. Well, Sam was supposed to land me on a glacier up there, so I didn't have to hike through a tremendous amount of knowledge and rough country to get there, which would have made it actually too easy.

But, he knew about these sheep up there. I knew what he was thinking. He didn't want it to be that easy. He didn't know me from Adam. He didn't want it to be that easy for me, so he flew around, made a bunch of loop-de-loops up there, and he was trying to make me sick to what he was doing. You know, he just didn't want me to hunt there. He said, well, I can't land up here anymore. I'm going to have to take you back down on the Copper River, land on a gravel bar there. I knew better. It would have been easy for him to land up there. So, I didn't say anything. So, we did. So, I had to hike through about, the next day, I had to hike through about, I don't know, five miles of alders to get to where I wanted to be. And I got up there and set up camp and made a hike up the canyon trying to locate these sheep.

And I didn't, and I got back down to camp. And Sam's uncle was an old, he was a World War II pilot. He had a, he lived down on the Chitner River and had a place there. He was in the air all the time. So he flies over the next day and he said, well, he said, there's a big storm coming in. You're gonna have to get out of here, because it's supposed to last for a week. Holy cow. I had to pack up camp and walk back down to all that. He picked me up on a river there the next day, and I went back to Anchorage. And a week later, this buddy of mine had his throat plan fixed up, so he flew me in. He flew me into this lake, and I started hunting. I think I was in there six, seven days. The group of rams that I was after, I wasn't doing one after these sheep, so that other people knew about them.

Anyway, the weather still hadn't cleared up. I had to clear around the top of this mountain range and couldn't find these rams. And the next morning, I glassed it. It was a big, huge mountainside there, and I glassed it. I could see this spot. I thought it was a goat to begin with. It was actually in goat country. Anyway, I got my spot and scope on him, and I see he was really nice for him. I think he ended up being 42 inches. Jeez. He was in a hell of a spot to try to make a stock on. Those old rams have been hunted many times before, So, they live in a place where it's next to impossible to try to get within range of them. Well, I spent two days trying to get to this sheep without spooking him, and finally, like the third day then, there was some clouds moved in. It was another front we would end up well as perfect because it would stalk in, and then the wind would blow the clouds out.

So, I started up that long ridge, and I got up there about noon, and it was in a perfect place. The clouds had kept me under cover. So, I got through this ridge and out of sight, and I made it up within 200 yards. I was bedding on a pinnacle right in the middle of this big open mountainside where he was living and feeding. It's hard to explain to somebody, but it was just an ideal place for a big old lone rammed a bed on a pinnacle rock where he could see everything. I was within 200, 250 yards. It was actually an easy shot. I was just hoping that I could kill him and he wouldn't fall off there. And he did. I killed him dead, but sometimes they give one last kick or two, and over the edge he went. He didn't turn himself up to You know, it was still insaligible, so I took the life-size skin, and it was a hell of a hunt. So, I can probably say that the most exciting and...

The dog sheep are really...you know, even though they're so easy to see in pure light, they're not...they're one of the smartest animals there is. Yeah. And they're not easy to hunt, you know, especially the older rams. But the bell sheep is, you know, if I had a lot of money, I'd hunt them every year. Yeah, wow. Tell me about, I know you've been to Mexico, you know, and had some crazy experiences. Tell me a little bit about that. Well, long story, but I'll try to shorten it up. I think it was 1975, being addicted to sheep hunting pretty bad already. Yeah. I knew my only opportunity to ever get a desert sheep, but at the end of the time, all I had was a stone sheep. I didn't have the doll yet, but I knew how difficult it was to try to get a desert ram. Well, there was an outfitter friend of mine from Bozeman had learned about an outfitter, a Mexican-American outfitter.

This guy actually lived in Chula Vista on the Mexico-California border, and he was taking hunters into northern Baja to go on sheep hunts. What had gone on there is there was a big shot from Mexico City that went for the Fish and Game. Yeah. It got transferred to Tijuana to immigration, and he took a stack of federal permits and a federal stamp with him, and he was selling these permits for us. Wow. Well, anyway, this officer read a sheep up for me to mount, and he told me about the hunt and the contact. So, these two guys that I'd hunted the stone sheep with, that I told you about, you know, that bought the stone sheep out for me, and I'd taken hunting several times here in Montana. I knew they wanted a deader sheep, so I called them up, and they went down. Right away, I believe it had been the spring, and they both got nice rams.

Well, when they got back, they said, if you can send him down six hunters, you can go on this hunt for nothing. Yeah. It wasn't paid for. So, I jumped at that opportunity, because it was no problem getting six hunters. Right. So, the next hunters I got, they both went down, they killed nice rams, and... And made it home. You had set them up, they went down, killed nice rams, and made it home? Right, right. So, the next in line, I came over, something happened, this guy couldn't go, so Carlos said, well, he said, you sent down enough hunters, he can send down those other two guys after you go. So, he said, you can come down on this next hunt if you want. Sure. So, I got ready, and yeah, but I got down to San Diego, and Carlos picked me up, and the next day, we took off and went through Tijuana and started down to Mexico. And these hunts, I believe, were close to what San Felipe is.

Yeah, yep. Okay. Well, that big range of mountains there that they were hunting in was where the world record desert ram came from. Yeah. You know, it's a big range of mountains, but it was in that big range of mountains. So, anyway, we took it off the next day, and we got into Mexico. At the border, you know, there was some people who followed us for a ways, and I asked him about it. He said, well, there's nothing to worry about. And we got down to Mexico a couple hundred miles, and there was a roadblock. And there was a pickup on the side. It was a big emblem that says El Borrego. In the back of this pickup, there was about 10 or 15 Mexicans with every kind of gun you can think of, from .22s to automatic rifles. And anyway, they stopped him, and he got out and jabbered to him.

And I asked him, when he got back, there's a problem? And he said, no. I said, that happens every now and then. They want to check people out. So, we got down to a couple more miles and stopped at this small cafe. I remember they had grass thatching on the roof, and just an old building. We went inside, and Carlos went in the back room and was jobbing with this guy. I see a big cloud of dust on the road out there. Look, and here come the two vans, and they pick up a load of Mexicans with rifles. And they pull in there on the streets to stop, and what the hell is going on? Geez. So, anyway, all these Mexicans march in there, and I'm at gunpoint. And I think, well, It's going to look good. This other Mexican, a Spaniard, and two other guys, this fellow's name was Alizio Ruggio. He was the head of the Fish, Game & Ball. So, they marched in the

back, and they started jabbing with Carlos, and pretty soon, Carlos is getting hurt. I I don't know if they were twisting his arm or something, but he was squalling. Geez. Yeah, and then this original comes out, and he spoke good English. He said, Well, did you come out here? We want information from you. So, he sent me down a chair out there, and he had all these Mexicans They had their guns in my face like I was going to try to get away, you know. Nuts. He said, you write down the names of every hunter you know that's come to Mexico to hunt. He said, they were not hanging legally. I said, well, hell, they weren't. He said, well, don't argue with me. Do this. So, I did. I cooperated with them. And then, I sat out there after I'd done this.

He took off again, and he was a big shot in the van, and they come back about a half an hour later, and they had a Mexican tied up with a lariat in the back of that pickup. Geez. And I said, well, Carlos, they had him tied up inside. And that was actually the guy that they'd went and gotten. And they said, well, you're in deep trouble. So, they tied me up with a little bit, and I lay in the back, and I pick up, you know, with my legs tied to my hands behind my back, on my belly. You know, like you're gonna get away. You know, stupid. We drive three or four hundred miles well into the night to Mexicali. Well, we get to Mexico, we got tiny and much into the jailhouse and took everything that I had and into a jail. Anyway, it was scary. Wow. So, what happened once you were in the cell?

They wouldn't let me make a phone call. The next day, the big shot, Liza Ruzio and the big shot, I can't remember his name now, he was the head of the fishing game for Mexico City. They marched me out of jail and started interrogating me about this hunt and the hunters. I told them everything I knew, but I cooperated with them. And I go back in the cell, and it was two more days, and they questioned me again, and they wouldn't like me to make a phone call. But there was an American that had pneumonia that had been in jail, and he was sleeping on the couch. They had an old beat-up couch out there next The jailer, they found out his parents had money, so they were bleeding him. Well, anyway, he said, I've got access to the phone. I've got to know the jailer. He said, I can call. So, I knew my wife and would like to know what's going on. Well, anyway, I had him call my wife,

and my wife and dad come down the next day to trade. They went to the American consulate, They were trying to get me out while they couldn't do nothing. They wouldn't do anything. So, there was more interrogation involved. I was in there for five weeks. Five weeks in jail? Five weeks. And they don't feed you. I mean, you have to share food with... There's a bunch of Mexicans that are thrown in there for whatever, you know, I don't know, crossing the border illegally or whatever, and their family would bring in, you know, they'd bring in food for them. Well, they'd share it with me. That's how I got by. I had a little bit of money that I had stuck in my sock, and I spent that right away. And then, occasionally, they let my wife and dad come in, and they would bring me something to eat. But then they transferred me to the prison.

And Elysio, he said that that's where you spend the rest of your time. And he said it would probably be extensive. Jeez. That was a good year. Anyway, as it turned out, another week in this scale, and they did feed you there, but it didn't amount to much. It was a grain they called arvina. They'd bring it in big bags and dump it in the vat with boiling water, and they'd stir it with a canoe paddle. Jeez. And everybody would get a cup full of it, you know, morning and evening, and that was it. Wow. But, at least you weren't in jail with an older fellow that they stuck in jail for...he'd been in an auto accident and his son was killed. I guess if you're at the wheel down there, you're guilty. You know, if somebody gets killed, they put you in jail. Do they? And his son was killed, you know. It was intentional. Yeah.

So, I went to the judge, who was a woman, and she said that if I could get one of those hunters that had hunted in Mexico to come down and testify for me, that's the only way they'd let me out. I don't know what was behind this, but this Doug Peterson actually risked getting arrested and thrown in jail and he'd come down and testified. Wow. Yeah, I thought he was ever gonna...he knew. I told him, you know, my wife and dad to tell him what, you know, the chances were pretty great that he was gonna end up in jail. Well, he took a chance on it to help me out. Anyway... That's a good guy right there. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, him and I are lifelong friends. Anyway, three days later, they released me after...

After my dad and wife had paid the lawyer $10,000. It was a whole year before I had to go to trial here in the U.S. and the judge knew what was behind this whole thing and he threw the homeworks out. He told these feds, he's a federal judge, and he said the whole thing was entrapment. Wow, crazy. Yeah. Wow. So, he threw everything out. So, did you, I mean, have you had any more trouble, or did it all go away? No, that was it. Good. That was it. Good. That was enough. So, then you ended up drawing this one more for four here in Utah, got another Mexico desert sheep hunt. Right. And went back to Mexico. I did. So, that hunt turned out good. Yeah, well, you know, sure, sheep hunter, you take risks. But, you know, I had no worries. You know, that was wrong in the past. Yeah, yeah. Your wife was probably like, really, Ron? Well, right. No, she thought I was nuts.

Oh, yeah. Wow. Well, cool. Well, you've seen everything wrong from 1930s, 40s, or 50s, whatever, all the way till nowadays. You're applying online. We have online applications. Everything's limited draw, you know, except for, like, your deer up there we talked about. But, you know, what, I mean, it's crazy what hunting's come to and the changes, and you've seen it all. What's your opinions on some of that? The hunting is just like everything else. We still got good elk hunting here. And the deer hunting, you can go hunt deer, but it's not like it used to be. There's lots of white deer around. And it's still really good. We've got a lot better off here than other people in other countries. You know, the opportunity is here. And even if you don't have a lot of money, you can still hunt quite a bit. If you've got a lot of money, it's unlimited. What some of these guys have done, you know,

look at the Grand Slam Club book, you know, you've looked at, you know, some of these hunters got 30, 40, 50 sheep, It's pretty unbelievable. There are people who have got a ton of money, of course. Even somebody like me, if they work things right, has got the opportunity to—and luck plays a big part—opportunity to kill a grant. You know, I think that's pretty much out of the picture for the majority of the hunters anymore. It's gotten, you know what, you know what they can maybe, you get in a big horn, unless you live in the big horn states, and they're lucky you've drawn a tag. It's fairly good. Desert sheep is, you know, kind of out of the picture. And stone sheep with a price tag of $40,000 to $50,000 is ridiculous. Yeah. Doll sheep is still kind of in the ballgame. You know, you can maybe go for $15,000.

But still, how many of these guys have got, especially people with a family's mind, have got $15,000. No, right. Go to spend on a hunt. Right. I agree. Yeah, so, you know, getting a grand slam anymore is just about out of the picture for the biggest majority of people. Yeah. You know, it's pretty sad that's the way things are. Yeah. And there's other, I don't know, it costs more, of course. Yeah. You can do it if you work it right. Yeah. Well, that's awesome. So, you've also seen the introduction of wolves and whatnot. Of course, you're opinionated on that, but tell us just a little bit. Well, I'll tell you what, something should be done. You know, they've decimated the wildlife in Montana. The west side of the mountains is pathetic. Their elk and deer herds are down to nothing. I just don't understand the

Fish and game, letting us go, you know. The agreement to begin with was a 12 breeding barrier, 15 at the most. And that was the agreement I made with the feds. Why can't they hold it at that? They could if they wanted to. Somewhere there's a big bunch of money, you know, there's money involved. And our game, wildlife is suffering because of it. You know, because they don't, there should be a year where it's open, you know, it should be open 365 days a year. And there should be no restrictions on killing wolves. You know, because they're gonna, no matter how hard the hunting is, they're still gonna thrive. Oh yeah, they're smart. Yeah, right. It's really pathetic. I don't know what you can do about it. It really bugs me. Yeah, there's nothing you can do. And you've experienced everything. I know we were talking earlier, you spent a lot of time in the Ponce and got clear back in 1988.

Went back in the heyday of some of this country. I've seen some just giant mule deer. It was, you know, I never dreamed that there was a place like that. You know, I don't know, I would venture to say that we had those seen two or three bucks. If they weren't world record, they were close to it, and maybe exceeded. Everybody, I hadn't hunted with a bow all that much. You know, I couldn't, I've had my arm messed up really bad, and I couldn't, I had to quit shooting a bow, you know, when I was 21. And I, because my hand was, only kind of nerve damage, but then I found out I could shoot a compound after I started hunting with Jimmy Ron. And so, I started hunting with a compound. I hadn't hunted that much, but I even shot a buck. Yeah. But it was, like I told you yesterday, the first morning, we were glassing out from a couple miles away.

There was like a sagebrush was moving right at daylight while it was, I don't know how many bucks were there, but there was, you know, a huge number of bucks and lots of big bucks. It just looked like all those antlers just looked like that sagebrush flat was moving. You know, it was unbelievable. There was just hundreds of them. And I guess, you know, shortly, at that time period, that's where they summer, and I think in two or three weeks' time, the majority of them move into Arizona. Yeah. And they probably still do that. Yeah, they still do. They summer up there in Elton, where you hunted there with Jimmy Ryan, Tom Hoffman, and those guys. Yeah, right. And then they winter down there on the Utah-Arizona border, and some of them go into Arizona. So, same pattern, same pattern, just maybe not quite the giants that you were seeing, you know.

Right. Well, I had heard after that, you know, because I wondered, after hunting down there, you know, I kind of kept track of what's going on with the deer, but the poachers learned about it, and there was some big time poaching went on down there, because it was so many huge bucks. That's true. I don't know if you remember that or heard about it, but that had to have been what happened. Well, and I think my dad was a game warden over there, and you met him. Well, he would know. You met him in the field, I think. Right, right. He did. Yeah, he did. You know, there's still a lot of deer there, but I'm sure it's not like it was then. Yeah. Well, it's still good. It's good by today's standards. Maybe one of the best.

You know? Yeah, right. Oh, it's quite an area. Yeah. For sure. So, what else have you, have you been to any other countries, or are you just, other than what we've talked about, or mostly just deer and elk and sheep? I don't...you know, one of the hunts that I went on, I'm really glad that I did. I have foreign hunts. I haven't been on many, but I did go on. The only one that was probably, you know, pretty exciting would be to any sheep hunter. A friend of mine from Wisconsin, a guy by the name of Roger Sedgabrack, had lined up a hunt for Hialtai rams in Mongolia, He asked me if I wanted to go with him. Well, I jumped at the chance and went over, I think we had it 15 days or 18 days, but it was something else. I had always dreamed, I looked at pictures of these giant rams and thought, well, it would be fun to see them on hooves.

Well, I got to do that. Roger screwed up. He had the chance to shoot a really big ram. Anyway, he missed out on this big sheep. He ended up killing just an average sheep. He was actually shooting at a—we're supposed to have shot a ram that would have been way up in the 50s, horn length-wise. Anyway, and I shot an ibex. The ibex at the time were pretty reasonable. I think it was 4,500. But on this river hunting sheep, I'd spotted up, there was a group of ibex. It was like a half a dozen of them, way off. We had to come in from the back side in these cliffs, so it was pretty iffy that this big ibex would be in a spot where he was shootable, and he wasn't. So, we waited it out, Roger and I, at different points to where we could stalk them without spooking them. And finally, it got toward the end of the day, so I just shot it. It was a decent high-max, but nothing like a 50-plus.

Wow. That's great experience, you know, to see that country and see the big sheep. Is there anything on your bucket list? I know you're still, we talked about archery hunting the other day, you're still willing to hunt with a bow, you know, at this age in life, You're still working hard, you know, doing taxidermy and whatnot, but is there anything that you... Well, yeah. You know, I stay busy all the time. I still hunt cats some. You know, I can't get around like I used to, but I've got a good hound, and I just hate to see that hound sit there and not do anything. You know, it's been a few years since I used snowshoes, and I don't want to have to hunt lion on snowshoes. I don't know if I could handle it. You know, lion hunting can, I'm sure you've done enough to know that it's probably one of the toughest sports there is. Yeah, and you've got one dog, one hound? Yeah, that's all you need.

And will that dog tree lion? Do you tree lions every year with it? Yeah, she's got a hell of a nose on her. Every year? You're treeing lions every year with her? Well, you know, last year, I treed one female. The year before that, I treed two or three. I haven't killed a lion in the last three or four years, but I don't care about killing one, unless it's a really big tom. These cats, you know, are heavy around here. The season is usually open right after when they fill their quarters on the west side. So, all those hunters from the west side, they come to the center of it to hunt. And there isn't any older toms left. If you carry a three or four year old tom, that's about it. You know, them big toms are about non-existent. I don't know what's going on there. I think over hunting and wolves play a part in it, because they will follow these cats around. You probably know that.

Take your kills away from all the cats, maybe get tired of that after a while, and leave. I don't know. It's different. So you still like to lion hunt, though? I do. I do. You know, it's a fun experience. It gets you out at a time of the year when a lot of people don't, you know, out in the woods. But it can be pretty difficult. Snow on the mountain front is two or three feet deep. It's just tough. Yeah. Do you go by yourself? Do you take a satellite phone or anything like that? No, I should, but I don't. I've thought about it, and I don't even have one. Just go by yourself and go, you and the dog. Yeah, right. You know, there's some friends that hunt here, cats here, that I hunt with at times, but most of them, well, the mean two or three that I hunt with don't want to go anymore. They're getting too old, and they don't, you know, so it's kind of a do-it-yourself deal.

But they're not older than you are. A couple of them are. Oh, well good. I've been busted up pretty bad. The only thing that's been busted up bad on me is my legs, my back. I've had my back broke three or four times, both arms. You know, when that catches up with you. Yeah, that's unbelievable. Yeah, it's no fun. Well, you'll keep going. You've got a heart, boy. Yeah, as long as the guy can still walk. But it's pretty easy to put off. Yeah, oh yeah. Well, is there anything you'd tell the young hunters out there that are listening? Anybody, anything, any experiences or things that you, you know, they could learn from you for being... Well, I don't know. You know, you just have to have the will to live the outdoors, have the will to hunt, And get out there and do it. Quit playing video games. Yeah, right. Right. There's nothing better, really, you know, of the outdoor experience.

Yeah. Well, good. Well, I sure appreciate you, Ron, spending some time with me today. And what a wealth of knowledge and experience you've had over the course of, I don't know, 60 plus years of hunting, isn't it? Over 60 years. Yeah. Right. Of just hunting and doing it, you know? Yeah. Well, I grew up in an area where, you know, this particular area is probably one of the top areas in the country, you know, as far as outdoor experiences and just the country itself is unique. Yeah. So, that's some incentive to enjoy it. To enjoy it, yeah. Right. Well, get your applications in in Utah, and keep applying in these places. You got a lot of points, and I'm sure you'll have a lot more, you know, hunts coming. Okay, I hope so. All right, Ron. Yep, call me anytime

Anytime you want to visit, we'll go from there. Okay, thanks a lot. Thanks, Ron. Appreciate you. Yeah, so long. Alright. A little shout out to Hilleberg. Hilleberg's been with us for a long time since inception of Epic Outdoors, the Hilleberg tents. The first great tents we ever had were Hilleberg. So, if you're looking for a great tent, you might contact Hilleberg through www.hilleberg.com backslash epic. So, www.hilleber.com backslash epic. And check out some of their tents. You might order one online, or you can give them a call and drop our name as well. They'll treat you right. They've treated all of our people right. So, incredible boots. We use Kinetrek Mountain Extreme Boots. Pretty regular. A lot of sheep hunts, as well as some of our aggressive deer and elk. Even some of their lightweight hikers.

There's incredible products. www.kenetrek.com, K-E-N-E-T-R-E-K.com, 1-800-232-6064. Epic Outdoors is a company where we concentrate on hunting information for the western U.S., Canada, Alaska, and Mexico. So, we do produce a monthly magazine from December through June, and then bimonthly the remainder of the year when we're all out in the field. So, anyway, it's nine issues a year. It's $100, and that is for the magazine, as well as being able to call in and get hunting advice, consulting, whatever, whether it be tags, hunts, whatever you need as far as Western big game hunting. We also have a full service, license application service. This is for guys that just don't have the time to apply themselves. So, while the basis of our business is draws throughout the West and obtaining tags, whether it be landowner tags or guaranteed tags through outfitters, we also have a license application

service. And this is, you know, where we apply guys throughout all the Western states for big game species and acquire points, tags, and what have you. So, anyway, that is an additional service above and beyond the $100, and it's per state basis with a $500 cap. You cannot spend more than $500 with us in our license application service, and that's It's doing every species throughout all western states. And so, anyway, for more information, you can go to epicoutdoors.com. You can get on there. Feel free to give us a call. There's some sample magazines on there, as well as some different tabs where you can see what the different services are that we offer here at Epic Outdoors.