EP 101: Hunting Back in The Good Old Days, 60+ years on the Mountain.

You've seen everything from 1940s or 50s all the way till nowadays. You just have to love the outdoors, have the will to hunt, and get out there and do it. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter here with the Epic Outdoors Podcast. Coming at you from here in southern Utah and got an awesome guest on the phone. Super excited to get started into this. I've tried to get this guy for years and I've known him for a long, long time. Clear back early 2000s and anyway, he lives in Montana. Mr. Ron Jenkins, a wealth of hunting experience. Spent tons and tons of time out in the field and hunted a lot of different animals. So anyway, super appreciative of him taking some time out of his schedule and visiting. Before we do get started, I want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring the podcast and really appreciate them and all that they do for Epic. We do want to throw a little shout out to Kent's Optics. They have great prices, the best of anywhere I've seen.

Been out in the field and ordered up binos and had them sitting at my house in one day. So anyway, give these guys a call. It's 435-257-7014. Tell them Jason and Adam sent you. I'm sure they'll make you a screaming deal. You can also go to kentoptics.com. I do want to also thank another advertiser of ours, Thompson Long Range. And we appreciate them and their support. He needs an affordable rifle that can shoot 1,000 yards. You ought to look at him. They're using Weatherby rifles, 33-78s, the 300s, 7mm, 270s, 65-300s, 257s, 240s. Wide variety of options there using Leupold optics and a reticle system. Great guys. Well worth visiting with. Very affordable. And it kills a lot of stuff. I killed my 270-inch mule deer with their rifle. So anyway, don't hesitate to give them a call. It's ThompsonLongRange.com or 435-713-4248. Let's talk about Outdoor Edge knives.

We've partnered with Outdoor Edge. They've got some incredible knives coming out. What a great product. And so anyway, you can check out the different knives they offer at www.OutdoorEdge.com. Or ask an Outdoor Edge dealer at your local sporting goods store. So anyway, let's get started with Ron here. Killed a lot of sheep. Tons and tons of sheep and elk and deer and guided along the way as well as taxidermist. Still does taxidermy by trade at 77 years old. And so he's one of those guys. He's a prime example of a guy that never quits. And he's still lion hunting by himself with his dog and still out hunting all the time. So it's pretty impressive. He's putting in the time year after year after year and never going to quit. So anyway, let's get started. Ron, you on the phone? Yes. Maybe just give us a little background and kind of what got you started.

And then we can kind of dive into, you know, what you love to do and some of your favorite animals to hunt. Okay. Well, I was born in a small town, you know, probably 500 people. I live now in Augusta, Montana, which is, you know, the people that are familiar with Montana would be west of Great Falls about 50 miles. And this town I was born in was Fairfield. It's about 20 miles from Augusta. And it's in the eastern district. This country basically is in the middle of what they call a Sun River country. The Sun River drainage comes out of the National Forest to the west of us here. It's a big drainage and runs for like from the mountain front to Great Falls. It flows into the Missouri. It's probably 75 miles. But there's a plateau in its Fairfield. They call it the Fairfield Bench. It used to be great pheasant hunting. And there's, it was all irrigated land from the Sun River.

They built a big canal in probably the 2030s. The CCC, Civil Conservation Corps. Anyway, I guess, so I grew up and went to school in Fairfield. But I basically kind of grew up in the mountains too. Because when I was about eight or nine years old, my dad and uncle, which were, they were ardent hunters and liked the outdoors. There was some cabin permits came up in the National Forest here, right on the edge of the Bob Marshall. But wilderness, it's from the mountain edge boundary back in the mountains about 20 miles. It's the furthest into the mountains anywhere along here. There's only cabin, you know, public cabin sites given out to the public. And anyway, my dad and uncle built a cabin there. So I grew up, we were up there every weekend, you know, during the summer and the winter. It was snowed in, of course, you couldn't get there. But it was a great area for elk.

There was a lot of mule deer at the time. There isn't now. You know, at the time, there was a lot of mule deer. There's four or five different major herds of bighorn sheep in the center of our country. And the one that was furthest to the southwest was the Fairview Willow Creek area herd. And it amounted at the time probably to 100 sheep, maybe 125. And these sheep, the rams, there's a big plateau in there that sits back in the middle of the mountains there where these sheep basically lived. And this country is, the mountain front mainly is a series of reefs and valleys. You know, it's kind of hard to explain unless you've actually seen it. But there's reefs run parallel to each other, and it's great sheep country. Anyway, the rams in this particular area would migrate as soon as the snow left, would migrate back into the Continental Divide.

You could get up on a ridge behind our cabin and see the whole divide, and you'd drop into the west. I'm sure the people on the phone probably are familiar with the Continental Divide. Sure. Anyway, I used to, when I was a kid from that hill behind the cabin, I used to watch those rams move down and do a fair into the timber and cross the river. And it's like, I don't know, it's a crow flies, maybe 20, 25 miles. And where they summered was, you know, really neat. There was a big reef there and a basin, they called it the head of basin creek. And that's where, at one time, when I was guiding for outfitters, I'd seen as many as 60 rams in different pockets in this basin. But that's kind of where I got wound up with big orange sheep. And then there was an outfitter, well-known outfitter, that had a ranch probably three miles from our cabin.

We elk hunted a lot, and he was the only outfitter at the time. And we had horses, but we didn't have, we were not that great of packers at the time. So we used to have Dan Neal pack our elk out, and I got to know him pretty well. At the time, pack, and, you know, it was probably six, eight miles into this place where we hunted elk. He was in the pack country, and he would pack, he would bring a string of horses. There was a lot of elk in there, and everybody usually filled up in the first two or three days. And he'd bring a string of mules in there and pack those elk out for like $10 a piece. What year are you talking? Well, that would have been in the early 50s. Okay.

Well, not too early. 52 through 50, 657. And even in, you know, in the early 60s, he was still charging like 50. And so you're talking, you're probably in your teens or 20? Well, right. You know, I first started hunting elk, I guess, with my dad when I was about 13 or 14. And it was a yearly deal. You know, when the sea didn't open, that's where we were at. Because it was a big open hillside, and you had to go back up a big canyon. And it was kind of a major deal getting in there. But we kind of had it all to ourselves. Other people didn't know about it. And it was too far off the road for anybody to hike in there. Did you have to deal with grizzlies back then? I mean, still dealing with all that? Well, you know, there were grizzlies around, but not, you know, they weren't, it wasn't a problem. You know, you're in the heart of grizzly country.

It was, and I don't remember at the time seeing a grizzly. Yeah. They were there, but, you know, you just don't see them very often. Yeah. They're smart animals and secretive, and you just don't see them that often. But they were, you know, like go fishing down over from the cabin, down the south fork of the Sun River. On the trail, there was always a big grizzly track. So they were around. Yeah. But you're very seldom ever, you know, there was a lot of problems with them. There's a period of time, I don't know, in the 60s and 70s, where they had a lot of problems with grizzlies, and there wasn't as many around then. I don't know what the deal was. It just, they killed mostly calves. You know, this is a big ranching area, so there's a lot of cattlemen around. Yeah. And, you know, cattlemen lay a cow, but calves were the biggest prey. They were easy to kill.

At the time, you could buy a grizzly tag over the counter, but, you know, there wasn't very many of them shot. Wow. You could just buy a grizzly tag over the counter. Oh, yeah. I had a grizzly tag every year, because, you know, it was the most fun animal to hunt that there was, really. You know, your chances of getting one were next to zero, but just the adventure in hunting a grizzly, you know, especially if you had snow on the ground, could track them. Jeez. But, you know, about 999 times out of 1,000, they'd hear you coming. You know, they're a smart animal, really smart. You know, I have no doubt in my mind that they can reason like a man. You know, if you'd seen a grizzly, it was maybe a glimpse. Yeah. Their best chance of getting one was probably to find one or catch one, and that's basically why most of them were killed.

You know, people would kill elk and then go back in the next day to pack them out or whatever. There'd be a grizzly on the gut pile or on the quarters, and they'd get a chance to get one. Did you ever end up killing one when you could hunt them? Not at the time. You know, I had the opportunity more than once, but not. Yeah. The first grizzly I got would have been, I don't know, and I tracked this grizzly. It would have been in the 70s. We used to pack into an area here that was pretty good elk hunting, and we had one picture morning. It was a fresh, girly track on the divide, and a friend of mine and I tracked him. I mean, it was, you know, it was perfect because it was fresh, you know, it was snowing. It was about a foot of snow, and his tracks went in. He would come down off the top of a mountain they call it, Caribou Mountain, and right down the divide on the old horse trail,

and then went down into a drainage. And we, of course, knew, you know, we had hungered before, but it was perfect. It was quiet. Anyway, a friend of mine and I got within about, and we could see where they went under a big spruce tree to lay down, and we stopped probably 50 yards from the tree. And he knew, you know, even as quiet as we were at that distance, a little bit of snow fell off a branch right above where he was vetted there, and he stuck his head out. And, you know, I was ready, and I shot him right under the chin, and he never knew what hit him. Jeez. It was a nice bear, probably seven, seven and a half foot. He probably weighed 400. Yeah. Maybe five. You know, just a really pretty grizzly. Yeah. When did they quit letting you hunt them? Do you remember? I do. It was like the last time he could hunt them was like 91. Okay. And they had a spring season.

And I think the year before they, you know, possibly it was before then, but I can remember this was an opportunity to hunt barely yet, but it was a permit deal. It issued 40 tags. And it was for males for boars on the mountain front here in the spring. It opened in April. And anyway, two friends of mine drew tags. I didn't have one. A local rancher friend of mine had a tag. And it was on the mountain front here, so of course he got a hold of me right away after he drew a tag. And I told him, we were after a bear that was, I had seen him, I used to spend a lot of time in the spring riding with my horses and picking up elk hunters on the frontier. Yeah. Anyway, every spring I see this grizzlies track. And we were headed over there to hunt this particular bear. And on the way, it was right at daylight. It was about, I don't know, 15, 20 inches of fresh snow.

It had just dumped a bunch of snow. And there's a ranch, a big ranch just out of Augusta here. Well, the land starts on the edge of Augusta, but it's probably 10 miles out. And we hit a ridge and we could see a spot way over on these open hillsides.

It was after the 88 fire. They used to be all timber. The 88 fire just de-timbered this country big time. You know, it burnt, I don't know what, you know, the fire started in the bad country and burnt the whole damn mountain frontier. Yeah. Thousands and thousands of acres. Jeez. So it was all open, but this bear evidently had just come out of hibernation. We could see him. He was working his way around the frontier. So we watched him and he bedded down in a big thicket of an old dove. It was all fir trees, all burnt. But you could see him laying down in there. So I stayed there and watched the bear. Well, my friend and my other buddy went back to town to talk to the rancher to get permission to go in after this bear. So they come back and we got as close as we could and took off a foot. And we got, it was actually perfect.

There was a big ravine there and this bear was laying in this burnt timber probably 300 yards from us. And we got up on a point where we were kind of hidden. There was some green timber left there. Yeah. And watched this bear. And Mark didn't want to attempt to shot him laying down. And so we just watched that bear for, I don't know, two or three hours. Like I said earlier, these bears are a tremendously smart animal. And he could, even though the wind was right, but he had no chance of winding us, he said something was wrong. Yeah. And I'm sure he could, you know, at that range, he didn't see us. We were careful about movement. But he started swinging his head. And this is probably an hour or two after we first started watching him. And he got up. And Mark thought about shooting then, but it wasn't really a good shot.

But then the bear started moving fairly fast up to the timber, so we lost that opportunity. And anyway, he didn't want to shoot at him moving. And it was, you know, it was too far. So he had a moving animal. Anyway, as soon as he broke out of sight, we run like a set of gun across this canyon and up on the next ridge. And by that time, he was down in another pocket and moving up toward the high ridge. And he knew we were after him. It was that simple.

And he had never seen it, as far as I know. You know, it's just kind of weird. But like I say, the bears are something else. He was the last chance Mark had to shoot him. He was actually moving too fast. And he got way up on us. Mark was a fan of a .340 Weatherby. Yeah. A cannon. And anyway, this bear was going up a pretty steep slope. And he stopped for a minute. Mark was laying down in the snow. And he was ready for him. He shot. And I can't remember where he hit. But he didn't hit the bear. And the bear got up, run up. And he stopped again. And he shot. And it was good. The bear dropped. You know, like a dead immediately. He made a hell of a shot on him. Wow. Beautiful bears. About, I don't know, the bear probably weighed 500, 600 pounds. And he's an 8, 8 1⁄2 foot bear. Geez. Wow. A beautiful grizzly. What a trophy. Unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah, they are. You know, the ultimate, really.

Yeah. As far as the mountain hunters. Yeah. Did you, so did you guide? Like, when you were younger, did you start guiding for a living? Or just get into taxidermy? Well, I did. You know, I was, after I got out of high school, I wasn't real sure. I wasn't that great a student. And, you know, I didn't care about school that much. But I, I'm trying to remember when I went to work. This officer I told you about that had a ranch close to the cabin there. I started working for him. And that was before, it would have been in 1960. Just right after high school? Yeah. Yeah. And that, that's when I first started guiding sheep hunters. And that, 1961, I think we had two or four sheep hunters that fall. And, and, and at the time, it's hard to explain, but there wasn't really any big sheep in the Sun River. Yeah. You know, if there was, it was, was abnormal.

And even after that, you know, I started doing taxidermy, I guess in 1965 here in Augusta. And, and for several years, you know, seven, eights curl was huge. You know, most of the rams they're bringing in were three quarter curls. Yeah. That first year, the second year, I guess I did, there was a hunter from my hometown had a tag and, uh, I don't think he'd even been hunting yet. They were left, they were waiting for the rams to start rotting. And the season at that particular time, I think closed the 15th of November. Yeah. Now it's open till around the first December. But anyway, it was, we're right down at the water and we'd been seeing quite a few sheep because we've been hunting elk pretty heavy up in this area where there are quite a few big horn. And, and these guys are, are, were partiers. And Augusta at the time was, was well known for that.

There was, you know, the hunters would come here, a lot of them, but wouldn't even make it out of town to go hunting. They'd just get a hotel and drink. You know, there were a lot of whiskey drinkers at the time.

Anyway, these guys. I called them up and, and, and told them that they needed to get up there. There's two days left this season. Anyway, they made it to Augusta and I had to come to town and get them. And it was, they made it up there. We went up that afternoon. It was snowing heavy. And, and, uh, and I don't know, this, this guy wasn't watching. And he had his rifle slung back and he scabbored. And anyway, it'd be caught on a branch and they had to, it pulled out of the, and there was other rifles he could have used. He didn't want to hunt with anything, but his own rifle. But next morning we went out, we had to spend about three hours trying to, of course it was trash. So we found his gun eventually. But then we went up on a, on a big mountain called Furby Mountain. And, and, uh, it was snowing pretty heavy and it was, there's a big canyon. And there was about 30, 40 sheep down there.

And it was, it was a half a dozen rams, but there was two rams. And we don't know where the hell they came from. They probably came at the time. There was a small herd of bighorns that had been there forever back in the wilderness area. And, and, and they evidently pulled in there to, to rut. We had never seen him before. He hunted that, you know, forever. But they were both giant rams, but one was, was pretty spectacular. Anyway, we went down the ridge where we were close enough to get a shot. And this guy started shooting at this ramp. He was so shaky, couldn't hit him. And he stopped again and that's when he killed him. We got down to that ram. Well, the ram was huge. The ram ended up, I think it, I don't know what it is in the record book now, but scored 196. Jeez. And, uh, it was like 45 inches on both sides and broomed, you know, probably six inches broomed off.

And the ram would have, would have went way up in the record book and over 200 inches. But he was, he was, uh, really light based. He was only like 14 and five eights on the base, you know, and still, I still scored 196. That's when I got hooked on, on, on big horn. Jeez. What, uh, you talked about a lot of mule deer back when you were really young. Do you remember seeing any just giant non-typicals or anything crazy? You know? Well, I did. Uh, you know, at the time, I guess, uh, a person already didn't know that much about, you know, you didn't see that much in write-ups or whatever on big mule deer bucks. You didn't know what was big and what, you know, of course you knew. You know, when you saw a group of deer or one or two bucks, if there was something very big there, you knew it. But, uh, you didn't, you didn't really know what, what the extent of big was. But anyway. Yeah.

Uh, I think one of the first hunts I went on, there was a, between the, between the town of, uh, Fairfield and, and, uh, and Choto, which is the next town over from Augusta here, there's a couple of buttes. They call it Priest Butte and Rattlesnake Butte. Well, we used to hike on them, but it's when we were kids. And, and I was, I can remember seeing some really nice field deer bucks. So, the first year that opened up, and I think I was 14 or 15, I, I talked, uh, dad into, into, uh, hunting there opening morning. So, we went, went out there and took off a foot and got up there. There's kind of a, this butte has got a rim of cliffs around it. And the top's fairly open, but there's different rock outcroppings. But we were walking along the top of this cliff, and these, you'll hear bucks would bet at the bottom of these cliffs.

Well, there was a nice four-point jumped up, and, and, uh, the rifle I was using at the time was, dad had bought an old armor rifle, and he was a 765 Mauser. And, you know, open sight, and maybe he had a peep sight, but I, anyway, when I shot this, this buck, I hit him in the head, and, hell, you know, his horns just flopped over. I'd about cried when I got over there.

Yeah. You know, my first decent field deer buck, and I ruined it. Yeah. But, they were fixable, but it was, it wasn't the same. Yeah. Anyway, we took care of this deer and walked on around the beautiful ways, and dad shot a, a nice four-point. And, uh, when we were walking, going down to, to get this buck, I looked up the canyon. It was a kind of a pass there, and there was a buck standing in that notch that was absolutely huge. And I can still see that, you know, it's the type of buck you were talking about. It was a big, non-typical. And I don't know, you know, it was just, and I begged dad to let me shoot that deer. Of course, you know, he wouldn't do it. You know, it was, it was stupid for me to ask, and always fill, and it already filled my tag. But that's probably the first really, really, and, uh, you know, it's probably one of the biggest bucks I've ever seen.

I don't know whatever happened to that buck. He probably died old age. And it, horns withered away out there in a, you know, canyon somewhere. Yeah. But there was, there was big herds of mule deer then on the mountain front that were, you know, amazing. Just lots and lots of deer. Well, Montana's got great genetics, some incredible genetics. It's just their management doesn't allow these deer to get old anymore, you know. You know, for, for anybody that has a tag, you know, there's very few areas in Montana where you have to, uh, where it's restricted, where you have to apply. You know, maybe a half a dozen at the most. Yeah. But most of the season is wide open. Well, to have a season that runs to the first, about the first December of a year, you know, for the last 10, 15 years, how can you expect to be any, any, any decent bucks left? Yeah.

Rifle rut hunting over the counter for you guys. Well, right. Well, they're just, they're just, you know, they probably feel some pressure to make, you know, some of the residents just want to make sure they have a tag in their pocket. They don't care, you know, about quality. And so that's who they're catering to, you know. That's, that's who it is, but I don't understand it. Yeah. What's your favorite? I mean, obviously you've, you've hunted a lot of different species. We'll get into your sheep, you know, or you've killed all four species of sheep and whatnot. But what's your favorite? What's your favorite to hunt? I know you had a tag here in Nevada and you still apply in Utah. You and I were talking about where to apply today and, and use your points. You've got a lot of points built up, but what's your favorite species to hunt?

Well, I, you know, I only hunted stone sheep once and that was in 1973. And actually I lucked into that. I was guiding hunters for an outfitter here. They used to have, they used to have late season hunts here because they figured, you know, they wouldn't get the, the kill on their, on their elk, you know, during the regular season. So they'd have the season run clear into January and February. And, you know, they were still coming out of the mountains. And sometimes, you know, it hadn't got any weather. So there was two hunters from Minnesota that I guided up there. And we were hunting, it was 40 vol. It was unbelievably cold. You had no business out there hunting, but, you know, people, for a chance, the elk were moving out in mass. It was easy to kill an elk. That was back in the wool and flannel days. Just straight up flannel, you know. Yeah, it was different. Yeah, right. Exactly.

40 below. Yeah. Yeah. And before these fellows left, they told, told me they had to hunt for stone sheep in northern British Columbia, actually on the Toad River for that fall. And that winter, they called me up and they said, we'll make a deal with you. We'll, we'll pay, we'll pay for you to stone sheep hunt. And you can come up and hunt with us. If you take us hunting there in Montana, whenever we come out, we'll hunt elk or deer. Yeah. And I, I agreed to that in a second. So that, that fall in September, we, we drove up and we were hunting with Southwicks. Okay. Southwicks have the area on Twitter. I can't remember who's got it now. Yeah. I knew they had it, had it, they brought it from, from Southwicks. I can't remember his name now, but anyway, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, it was tremendous. It was an all species hunt and they had bargained with this outfitter.

It was, it was, it would have, we needed hunters that fall. And you know what this all species hunt cost? What was that? $1,800. Wow. We, we just killed, uh, and we got, and we got, we got a, like a 41 inch stone ram, a beautiful ram. Wow. All three of us got stone sheep, goats, two caribou, two moose, you know, for $1,800. Unbelievable. Yeah. $1,800 for all species. Right. Unbelievable. Each guy. Yeah. Yeah. It was. Wow. Unbelievable. And I'm trying to remember the first, uh, okay. The same guy is, I guess it was 1976. Uh, one of the fellows, he said, we needed, he had a chance to go up and hunt, uh, doll sheep in a Brooks range. So any, I talked with the officer, this officer said, if I could line up three or four hunt, hunters for him, he said, uh, I'd like it to come hunt for nothing. Yeah. And at the time, you know, being a tax nurse, I didn't make very much money.

So, you know, hunt like this was, you know, was out of, out of reach for me. So we went up and, and that was my first doll sheep and it was in the Hula Hula River. And the Hula Hula River at the time had the highest concentration of doll sheep anywhere in North America. I think they figured it was 25, maybe as high as 2,500 doll sheep in that, in that drainage. So, you know, it was, it was a tremendous hunt. We, like the, the ram I killed was only like 36, but it was a full curl sheep, but nice ram. It was my experience. So, uh, that was my first doll sheep. And the next one was a trade hunt. I knew a, I knew a fellow, and you probably heard of him, the other name was Dick Idol. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Dick, I got to know him pretty well. And at that time he was wheeling, dealing big time in whitetail horns. You know, I can remember some of the loads of whitetail horns.

And he had a, a cabin of residence over at Seedy Lake. And he would buy like a whole truckload. He'd find these old timers that collected whitetail horns and buy them for a little and nothing. And it was just unbelievable. Some of those racks. He brought a truckload from, from an old timer to collect them in Maine. And, you know, I, I've got a bunch of pictures of the antlers, but they were, you know, it was, it was somewhere else. Wow. Anyway, he, he knew, I think Dick had been a taxidermist in, uh, Alaska for a while. So he knew a lot of the outfitters and people up there. And I told him I liked to hunt a doll sheep again. So he knew a fella that, uh, would take me to a sheep hunt and trade for antelope and deer in Montana. And that's basically how I worked most of these hunts. You could, you could trade with people in, you know, they like wanted to come to Montana to hunt. Yeah.

So anyway, I went up and, and, uh, the fella I went with, him, his girlfriend, they were sheep hunters. We flew. I had no idea where we were going to hunt. We ended up going to a place I dreamed about hunting. It was where the biggest sheep, biggest doll sheep in the world come from. Yeah. The head of the Chitner River. Yeah. And, you know, Ram Glacier and, and Bernard Glacier and, and, uh, it was, I believe, Ram Glacier for the world record was killed. And the first ram we saw, there was a, a huge ram there. And the rams run down off this plateau onto a big cliff. We went out to this ram while we got down there. You look down on a rock ledge down about 50 yards and there's five rams standing there. And that one ram was, I didn't realize how big this ram was. But anyway, he said, uh, you need to shoot that sheep. And I said, I'm not going to shoot that sheep.

I said, that ram's going to fall off that ledge down into that rock pile down there. And he's going to probably pop his horns off. He said, we can retrieve, we can retrieve it. And if he tears his cape up, we'll get you another one. Well, I, I didn't shoot the sheep. And I had, we waited him out and, uh, he just stayed put. And, uh, anyway, the next day we left, it got, got dark. We went back to camp and, and, uh, next morning his girlfriend took off. He wanted to get her a ram and the sheep had left. He couldn't find them anywhere. So, yeah. So we live. Anyway, this other fellow and I went back to McCarthy to get fuel. We got back and, and this other fellow and his girlfriend had killed a, a nice ram. And, uh, he told me that there was, there was three more rams there and that they were all nice sheep, but they were actually bigger than one she killed.

So we, we went after the sheep, but there were, there was three, uh, three rounds. You know, one was, you know, one was, you know, you know, they were really nice sheep. There was, uh, one 36 or 37. Anyway, I ended up, you know, we're, we're shooting, I was shooting uphill really, really steep. Ended up with just a, a 36 inch ram, but, uh, and that was my second, second doll ram. And the, the next one, next one was a trade hunt. I'd taken a, a pilot from Alaska. Had come down here. Was one of the same guys that arranged this hunt before. And I took, I took them, I took them whitetail hunting. And they, they killed some really nice whitetail bucks. And I, I told him that, you know, I, I loved hunting doll sheep and I wanted to get a really nice ram at some point. He said, well, I can help you out on that. And this, this fellow, this fellow at the time, he had done a lot of flying.

At the time he was, he was flying for a, a well-known fisherman out there. He could spot sardines or herring. Yeah. You know, they used to fly and spot those big. Schools of them. Those big groups of herring from the area, you know, so they could put nets around them. And, and, uh, anyway, he said that there was a ram in a walking area there that was a really dandy ram. And he'd been watching him. So that fall, I, I went up. Okay. His full plane was broke down. Cause he was going to fly me into a high mountain lake to go after. Yeah. You go after these, these, these rams we spotted. And his full plane broke down. So he had, he had Sam fly me in there. Well, Sam was supposed to land me on a glacier up there. So I didn't have to hike through a tremendous amount of knowledge and rough country to get there. You know, which would have made it actually too easy.

But, and he, he knew about these sheep up there. And he, you know, I knew, I knew what he was, what he was thinking. He didn't want it to be that easy. He didn't know me from Adam. Yeah. He didn't want it to be that easy for me. So he flew around, made a bunch of loop to loops up there. He was trying to, trying to make me sick to what he was doing. You know, or, you know, I don't know. He just didn't want me to hunt there. Yeah. He said, well, I can't land up there anymore. I'm going to have to take you back down on the Copper River, land on a, on a gravel bar there. And I knew better. Yeah. It would have been easy for him to land up there. So I didn't say anything. So he did. So I had to hike through about, the next day I had to hike through about, I don't know, five miles of alders to get to where I wanted to be.

And I got up there and set up camp and made a hike up the canyon trying to locate these sheep. And I didn't. And I got back down to camp. And Sam's uncle was an old, he was a World War II pilot. He had a, he lived down on the Chitner River and had a place there. And he, he was in the air all the time. So he flies over the next day and he said, well, he said, there's a big storm coming in. You're going to have to, you're going to have to get out of here because this year is supposed to last for a week. Holy cow. I had to pack up camp and, and walk back down to all that. He picked me up on a river there the next day. And I went back to Anchorage. And a week later, this buddy of mine had his boat plane fixed up. So he flew me in. He flew me into this lake. And I started hunting. I think it was, it was in there six, seven days. And the group of rams that I was after.

I wasn't doing one after these sheep. So that other people knew about them. And anyway, the weather still hadn't cleared up. I had to clear around the top of this mountain range and, and couldn't find these rams. And the next morning I glassed it. It was a big, huge mountainside there. And I glassed it. And it was, I could see this spot. I thought it was a goat to begin with. It was actually in goat country. But anyway, I got my spot and scope on him. And I see, you know, he was really nice for him. It was, I think he ended up being 42, 42 inches. But he was in a hell of a spot to try to make a stock on. And those, those old rams have been hunted many times before. So they, they live in a place where it's, it's, uh, next to impossible to try to get within range of them. Well, I spent two days trying to, trying to get to this sheep without spooking him.

And finally, like the third day then, there was some clouds moved in. Yeah. It was another front we would end up, uh, well, it was perfect because it would stalk in. And then the wind would blow up and clouds out. So I started up that long ridge and I got, I got up there about noon. And it was in a perfect place. The clouds had kept me under cover. Uh, so I got through this ridge and out of sight. And I made, made it up within 200 yards. This ram was bedding on a pinnacle right out in the middle of this big open mountainside where he was living and feeding. And just a, just a, you know, it's, uh, uh, hard to explain to somebody, but it was just an ideal place for a big old lone ram to bed on a pinnacle rock where he could see everything. Yeah. But I was within 200, 250 yards. It was, you know, actually an easy shot. I was just hoping that I could kill him and he wouldn't fall off there.

Because, and he did. You know, I killed him dead, but he, you know, sometimes they give one last kick or two and over the edge he went. And, uh, he didn't turn himself up to, he didn't, you know, it was still inseligible. So I took the life-size skin and it was a hell of a hunt. So I, I can probably say that the most exciting and, uh, uh, I, I, the dog sheep are really, you know, even though they're so easy to see in pure white, they're, they're not, they're one of the smartest animals there is. Yeah. And they're not easy to hunt, you know, especially the older rams. But the dog sheep is, is, you know, if I had a lot of money, I'd hunt them every year. Wow. Tell me about, I, I, I know you've been to Mexico, you know, and had some crazy experiences. Tell me a little bit about that. Well, long story, but I'll, I'll try to shorten it up.

Uh, I think it was 1975 being, uh, addicted to sheep hunting pretty bad already. Yeah. I knew my only opportunity to ever get a desert sheep, but at the end of the time, all I had was a stone sheep. I didn't, I didn't have the doll yet, but, you know, I knew how difficult it was to try to get a desert ram. Well, there was an outfitter friend of mine from Bozeman had learned about an outfitter, Mexican-American outfitter. This guy actually lived in Chula Vista, you know, on the Mexico-California border. And he was taking hunters into, uh, northern, northern Baja on sheep hunts. What had gone on there is, uh, there was a, uh, big shot from Mexico City that went for the Fish and Game. Yeah. Had got transferred to Tijuana to, to immigration. And he took a, uh, stack of, of federal permits and a, and a federal stamp with him. And he was selling these permits for us. Wow.

Well, anyway, this officer read a sheep up for me to mount. And he told me about the hunt and the contact. Well, these two guys that I'd hunted stone sheep with and that I told you about, you know, that brought the stone sheep out for me. I'd taken hunting several times here in Montana. I knew they wanted a deader sheep. So I called them up and they went down. Right away, I believe it was, had to have been the spring. He went down and, and they both got nice rams. Well, and when they got back, they, they said, if you can send him down six hunters, you can, you can go on this hunt for nothing. Yeah. It'll be paid for. So I jumped at that opportunity because I, I, it was no problem getting six hunters. Right. So the next hunters I got, they both went down and they killed nice rams and, uh. And made it home. You had set them up. They went down, killed nice rams and made it home. Right.

Right. So the next, uh, the next in line, I came over, something happened. This guy couldn't go. So Carlos said, well, he said, you sent down enough hunters. He can send down those other two guys after you go. So I, he said, you can come down on this next hunt if you want. Sure. So I, I got, I got ready and, and, uh, yeah, but I got down to, to, uh, San Diego and Carlos picked me up. And the next, the next day, uh, we took off and went through Tijuana and started down into Mexico. And these, these, these hunts, I believe, were close to, what the, familiar with San Filippi is? Yeah. Yep. Okay. Well, that, that picked a range of mountains there that they were hunting in is where the world record desert ram came from. Yeah. Out of San, you know, it's a big range of mountains, but it was in that bigger range of mountains.

So anyway, we took off the next day and, and we got into Mexico, uh, at the border, uh, you know, it was, there was some people followed us for ways. And I asked him about it. I said, well, there's nothing to worry about. And we got down to Mexico, uh, a couple hundred miles and there was a roadblock. Jeez. And it was, there was, uh, a pickup on the side. It was a big, uh, emblem that says El Borrego. In the back of this pickup, there was about 10 or 15 Mexicans with, with, with every kind of a gun you can think of, from 22s to, to, uh, automatic rifles. Jeez. And, anyway, they stopped him and he got out and jabbered to him. And, uh, I asked him when he got back, there's a problem. And he said, no. I said, that, that, uh, happens every now and then. They, they want to check people out. So we got down a couple hundred miles and stopped at this small cafe.

I remember they had, had, uh, grass thatching on the roof and just an old building. And we went inside and Carlos went in the back room and was jabbering with this guy. And, and, uh, I see a big cloud of dust on the road out there. I look and, and here, here's, here come the two vans. And, uh, and a pickup load of Mexicans with rifles. And they, they pull in there and streets to stop and, uh, what the hell was going on? Jeez. So, anyway, all these Mexicans march in there and they, and I'm at gunpoint. And I think, well, this don't look good. And this, this other Mexican, the Spaniard and, uh, two other guys went, but this, this fellow's name was Alizio Ruggio. He was, uh, uh, head of the fishing game and ball. Yeah. And so they, they march in the back and, and they start jabbering with Carlos. And, and pretty soon they're, Carlos is, uh, is, uh, getting hurt.

I don't know just what they, they're twisting his arm or something, but, you know, he was squalling. Jeez. Yeah. And then this Ruggio comes out and he says, he spoke good English. He said, well, did you come out here? We want information from you. So he sent me down a chair out there and he had all these Mexicans. They just had their guns in, in my face. Like I was going to try to get away, you know, nuts. He said, you write down the names of every hunter, you know, that's come to Mexico to hunt. He said, they were, they were, they were not hanging legally. I said, well, hell they weren't. He said, well, don't argue with me. Do this. So I did. I cooperated with him. And then I sat out there after I'd done this, he took off again. And he said, they shot in a van and they come back about a half an hour later. And they had a Mexican tied up with a lariat in the back of that pickup. Jeez.

And I said, well, Carlos, they had him tied up inside.

And that was actually the guy that they'd went and gotten. Okay. And he said, well, you're in deep trouble. So, so they'd tie me up with a lariat and I lay in the back of that pickup, you know, with my legs tied to my hands behind my back on my belly. Gun to the point of that, you know, like, like you're going to get away. Yeah. You know, stupid. But we drive three or four miles well into the night to Mexicali. While we get to Mexicali, we got a tiny amount of into the jailhouse and took everything that I had and into a jail to go.

Anyway, you know, it was scary. Wow. So what happened once you were in the cell? Well, they wouldn't make it. They wouldn't let me make a phone call. The next day, the next day, the big shot, Liza Ruzio and the big shot. I can't remember his name now. He was the head of the fishing game from Mexico City. They marched me out of jail and started interrogating me about about this hunt and the hunters. And, you know, I told them everything I knew. I cooperated with them. Yeah. And I go back in the cell and it was two more days and they questioned me again. And they wouldn't let me make a phone call. Yeah. There was an American that had pneumonia that had been in jail and he was sleeping on the couch. They had an old beat-up couch out there next to the jailer. They found out his parents had money, so they were bleeding him. Yeah. Well, anyway, he said, I've got access to the phone.

I've got to know the jailer. He said, I can call. So I knew my wife and would like to know what's going on. Well, anyway, I had him call my wife and my wife and dad come down the next day. They went to the American consulate to try to get me out while they couldn't do nothing. They wouldn't do anything. So there was more interrogation involved. I was in there for five weeks. Five weeks in jail? Five weeks. Five weeks. And they don't feed you. I mean, you have to share food with, there's a bunch of Mexicans that are thrown in there for whatever. You know, I don't know, crossing the border illegally or whatever. And their family would bring in, you know, they'd bring in food for them. Well, they'd share it with me. That's how I got by. I had a little bit of money that I'd stuck in my sock and I spent that right away.

And then occasionally they'd let my wife and dad come in and they would bring me something to eat. But then they transferred me to the prison.

And Elysio, he said that that's where you spend the rest of your time. And he said it would probably be extensive.

Jeez. That was a good deal. Anyway, as it turned out, another week in this jail. And they did feed you there. But, you know, it didn't amount to much. It was a grain they called or vena. It was like they'd bring it in in big bags and dump it in the vat with boiling water. And they'd stir it with a canoe paddle. Jeez. And everybody would get a cup full of it, you know, morning and evening. And that was it. Wow. But at least you weren't in jail with, I was in jail with an older fellow that they stuck in jail for, he'd been in an auto accident and his son was killed. And I guess if you're at the wheel down there, you're guilty. You know, if somebody gets killed, they put you in jail. Do they? Yeah. And his son was killed, you know. It was intentional. Yeah. So I went to, the judge was a woman.

And she said that if I could get one of those hunters that had hunted in Mexico to come down and testify for me, that's the only way they'd let me out. I don't know what was behind this. But this Doug Peterson actually risked getting arrested and thrown in jail and he'd come down and testify. Yeah. And told him, I thought he was ever going to, he knew. I told him, you know, my wife and dad to tell him what, you know, the chances were pretty great that he was going to end up in jail. Well, he took a chance on it to help me out. Anyway. That's a good guy right there. Yeah, for sure. Wow. Him and I are lifelong friends.

Anyway, three days later, they released me after my dad and wife had paid the lawyer $10,000. Yeah. It was a whole year before I had to go to trial here in the U.S. And the judge knew what was behind this whole thing. And he threw the homeworks out. He told these feds, he's a federal judge. And he said it was, the whole thing was entrapment. Wow. Crazy. Yeah. Wow. So he threw everything out. I think that. So did you, I mean, have you had any more trouble? Or did it all go away? No, that was it. Good. That was it. Good. But that was enough. So then you ended up drawing this one more for four here in Utah, got another Mexico desert sheep hunt. Right. And went back to Mexico.

I did.

So that hunt turned out good. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, sure, sheep hunt, you take risks. Yeah. But, you know, I had no worries. I, you know, that was wrong in the past. Yeah. Yeah. Your wife was probably like, really, Ron? Really? Well.

Right. No, she, she thought I was nuts. Oh, yeah. Wow. Well, cool. Well, what, you've seen everything wrong from 1930s, 40s, or 50s, whatever, all the way till nowadays. You're applying online. We have online applications. Everything's limited draw. Mm-hmm. You know, except for, like, your deer up there we talked about. But, you know, what, I mean, it's crazy what hunting's come to and the changes. And you've seen it all. What's your opinions on some of that? The hunting is, you know, just like everything else. I don't, you know, we still got good elk hunting here. Yeah. And the deer hunting, you can go hunt deer, but, you know, it's not like it used to be. Yeah. There's lots of white deer around. Yeah. And, you know, it's still really good. We've got a lot better off here than other people in other countries. You know, it's, the opportunity is here.

And even if you don't have a lot of money, you know, you can still, you can still hunt quite a bit. If you've got a lot of money, it's, you know, it's unlimited. What some of these guys have done, you know, look at the Grand Slam Club book. You know, you've looked at, you know, some of these hunters got 30, 40, 50 sheep. And, you know, it's pretty unbelievable. But, you know, there are people who have got a ton of money. Yeah. Of course. But, you know, you still, even somebody like me, if they work things right, has got the opportunity to, and luck plays a big part. Yeah. Opportunity to, to kill a Grand. Well, you know, I think that's pretty much out of the, out of the picture for the majority of the hunters anymore. It's got, you know, what, you know, they can maybe, you're getting a big horn unless you live in the big horn states and they're lucky to draw on a tag.

It's, are fairly good. Desert sheep is, you know, kind of out of the picture. And stone sheep with a price tag of 40 to 50,000 is ridiculous. Yeah. Doll sheep is still kind of in the ball game. You know, you can maybe go for 15. But still, how many, how many of these guys have got, especially people with a family's mind, have got $15,000. No. Go to spend on a hunt. Right. I agree. Yeah. So, you know, getting a Grand Slam anymore is just about out of the picture for the biggest majority of people. Yeah. You know, it's pretty sad. That's the way things are. Yeah. You know. And there's other, I don't know, it's, you know, it costs more, of course. Yeah. You can do it if you, if you work it right. Yeah. Well, well, that's awesome. So, you've also seen the introduction of wolves and whatnot. Of course, you're opinionated on that. But tell us just a little bit. Well, I'll tell you what.

I don't, something should be done. You know, they're, it's, they've decimated the wildlife in Montana. They're, they're, they're, they're, they're elk and deer herds are down to nothing. And I just don't understand the fish game letting us go. You know, they don't, the agreement to begin with was, was it 12, 12 breeding barrier, 15 at the most. Yeah. And that was the agreement I made with the feds. Well, why can't they hold it at that? Yeah. They could if they wanted to. Somewhere there's a, there's a big bunch of money, you know, there's money involved. And our, our game, wildlife is suffering because of it. Yeah. You know, because, you know, they don't, there should be a year where it's open, you know, it should be open 365 days a year. And there should be no restrictions on killing wolf. Yeah.

You know, because they're going to, no matter how hard the hunting is, they're still going to thrive. Oh, yeah. They're smart. Yeah, right. It's really pathetic. Yeah. You know, I don't, there's nothing you can do about it. Yeah. Nothing. It really bugs me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's nothing you can do. And you've, you've experienced everything. I know we were talking earlier. You spent a lot of time in the Ponce and got clear back in 1988. Went back in the heyday of some of this country. Well, it. Seen some just giant mule deer. It, it was, you know, I never dreamed that there was a place like that. You know, I don't know. I would venture to say that, that we, that we had to have seen two or three bucks. If they weren't world record, they were, they were close to it. And maybe exceeded. Everybody, and I hadn't heard of the bull all that much.

You know, I couldn't, I've got, I've had my arm messed up pretty bad and I couldn't, I had to quit shooting a bow. You know, when I was 21. And I, because my hand was, only kind of nerve damage. But then I found out I could shoot a compound after I started hunting with Jimmy Ryan. And, and so I, I started hunting with a, with a compound, you know, and I hadn't hunted that much, but I even shot a buck.

But it was, like I told you yesterday, you know, when we, the first morning, we were glassing out from a couple miles away. There was like a, the sagebrush was moving right at daylight while it was, I don't know how many bucks were there, but there was, you know, a huge number of bucks and lots of big bucks. It just looked like the, all those antlers just looked like that, that sagebrush slot was moving. You know, it was, it was unbelievable. There was just hundreds of them. Jeez. And I guess, you know, shortly, at that time period, that's where they summer, that they, and it, and it, I think in a two or three weeks time, the majority of them move into Arizona. Yeah. And they probably still do that. Yeah, they still do. They summer up there in Elton, where you hunted there with Jimmy Ryan, Tom Hoffman, and those guys. Yeah, right.

Then they winter, they winter down there on the Utah-Arizona border, and some of them go into Arizona. So, same pattern, same pattern, just maybe not quite the giants that you were seeing, you know. Right. But. Well, I had heard after that, you know, because I wondered, after hunting down there, you know, I kind of kept track of the, what's going on with the deer, but the poachers learned about it. And there was some big-time poaching went on down there, because there was so many huge bucks. That's true. I don't know if you remember that or heard, you know, heard about it, but that had to have been what happened. Well, and I think my dad was a game warden over there, and you met him. Well, he would know. You met him in the field, I think. Right, right. He did. Yeah, he did, and he, yeah. You know, there's still a lot of deer there, but I'm sure it's not like it was then. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, it's still good. It's good by today's standards, maybe one of the best, you know. Yeah, right. Oh, it's quite an area. Yeah. For sure. So what else have you, have you been to any other countries, or are you just, other than what we've talked about, or mostly just deer and elk and sheep? I don't, you know, one of the hunts that I went on, I'm really glad that I did, foreign hunts. I haven't been on many, but I did go on. Only one that was probably, you know, pretty exciting would be to any sheep hunter. A friend of mine from Wisconsin, a couple of named Roger Sedgbrecht had lined up a hunt for high alti rams in Mongolia. And he asked me if I wanted to go with him. Well, I jumped at the chance and went over, I think we had it 15 days or 18 days, but it was something else. You know, it was, I had always dreamed, you know, I looked at pictures of these giant rams

and thought, well, it'd be fun to see them on hooves. Alive, well, I got to, I got to do that. And it was, it was, I, Roger, Roger screwed up. He had the chance to shoot a really big ram. And anyway, he missed out on this big sheep. He ended up killing just a, just an average sheep. And he, he, he was actually shooting it up. We're supposed to have shot a ram that would have been, you know, way up in the fifties. Yeah. Horn length wise. But anyway, and I shot on high backs. The high backs at the time were, were pretty reasonable. I think it was 4,500. Wow. But on this, we were hunting sheep, I, I'd spotted up, there was a group of ibex. It was like a half a dozen of them, way off. We had to come in from the backside in these cliffs. So it was pretty iffy that this big ibex would be in a spot with, he was shootable. And he wasn't. Yeah.

So we tried, we waited it out, Roger and I, at different points to where we could stalk him and, and without spooking him. I mean, it had, finally got toward the end of the day, so I just shot, you know, it was a decent ibex, but nothing like a, a 50 plus. Yeah. Wow. But that's, uh, that's great experience, you know, to, to see that country and, and, uh, and see the big sheep. Is there anything on your bucket list? You're, I know, uh, you're, you're still, we talked about archery hunting, uh, the other day. You're still, you're still willing to hunt with a bow, you know, at this age in life and you're still working hard, you know, doing, uh, taxidermy and whatnot, but is there anything that you're... Well, yeah. I, you know, I stay busy all the time. I still, I still hunt cats some, you know, I can't get around like I used to, but, but

I've got a, a good hound and I just hate to sit that, see that hound sit there and not do anything. But, you know, it's been a few years since I used snowshoes and I don't want to have to hunt lion on snowshoes. I don't know if I could handle it. You know, because lion hunting can, uh, I'm sure you've done enough for it to know that's probably one of the toughest sports there is. Yeah. And you've got one, you've got one dog, one hound? Yeah, that's all, that's all you need. And will they, will that dog tree lion? Do you tree lions every year with it? Yeah, she, she's a, she's got a head of a nose on her. Every year? You're, you're, you're treying, you're treying lions every year with her? Well, you know, I did, last year I treed one female. Before that, year before that, I treed two or three. I haven't killed a lion in the last three or four years, but I don't care about killing

one, you know, unless it's a really big tom. They're, these cats, you know, heavy around here. They're, they're, they're sitting, they're usually open right after, uh, when they fill their quarters on the west side. So all those hound owners on the west side, they come to the center of her to hunt. Yeah. And, uh, there wasn't, there wasn't any older tom left. You know, if you kill a three or four year old tom, that's about it. Yeah. You know, them big tom's are about non-existent. Uh, you know, I don't know what's going on there. I think over hunting and I think the wolves play a part in it because they, they will follow these cats around. You, you probably know that. Yeah. Yeah. Take their kills away from them and the cats maybe get tired of that after a while and leave. Yeah. Wow. I don't know. It's, it's different. So you still like to lion hunt though? I do. I do.

You know, it's a, it's a, it's a fun experience. It gets you out, uh, you know, a time of the year when a lot of people don't, you know, out in the woods and, but it, you know, it, it, it can be, it can be pretty difficult. Do you? You know, it's, it's sort of, you know, I'm making a snow on the mountain front here is, uh, two or three feet deep. Yeah. And, you know, it's just tough. Yeah. Do you, uh, do you go by yourself and you take a satellite phone or anything like that? How do you? No. You know, I should, but I don't. You know, I've thought about it and I don't even have one. Just go by yourself and go. You and the dog. Yeah. Right. You know, there's, there's some friends that hunt your cats here that, that I hunt with at times, but most of them, well, the main two or three that I hunt with don't want to go anymore.

They're getting too old and they don't, they don't, you know, so it's kind of a do it yourself deal. But they're not older than you are. A couple of them are.

Oh, well, good. I've had, I've been busted up pretty bad. The only thing that's having been busted up bad on me is my legs, my back. I've had my back broke three or four times. Both arms. You know, when that catches up with you. Yeah. That's unbelievable. Yeah. It's no fun. Well, you'll keep going. You've got a heart. Boy, that's a good person. As long as the guy, as long as the guy can still walk. Yeah. But it's, it's, it's pretty easy to put off. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, is there anything you'd tell the young hunters out there that are listening? Anybody, anything, any experiences or things that you, you know, they could learn from you for being. Well, I don't know. You know, you just have to, you just have to have the, have the will to, love the outdoors, have the will to hunt and get out there and do it. Quit playing video games. Quit playing video games. Yeah, right. Right.

There's nothing better, really, you know, of the outdoor experience. Yeah. Well, good. Well, I sure appreciate you, Ron, spending some time with me today and, and what a wealth of knowledge and experience you've had over the course of, I don't know, 60 plus years of hunting, isn't it? Over 60. Yeah. Years. Right. Of just, just hunting and doing it, you know? Yeah. Well, I, I grew up in an area where, you know, this particular area is probably, probably one of the top areas in the, in the country, you know, as far as, uh, uh, outdoor experiences and just the, the country itself is unique. Yeah. So that, that's, uh, some incentive. Yeah. To, to, to enjoy it. To enjoy it. Yeah. Right. Well, get your applications in, in Utah and, and, uh, keep applying in these places. You got a lot of points and I'm sure you'll have a lot more, you know, hunts coming. So. Okay. I hope so. All right, Ron.

Yep. Call me anytime, anytime you want to visit and we'll go from there. Okay. Thanks a lot. Thanks, Ron. Appreciate you. Yeah. Yeah. So long. All right. A little shout out to Hilleberg. Hilleberg. Hilleberg's been with us for a long time since inception of Epic Outdoors. Hilleberg tents. Some of the first great tents we ever had were Hilleberg. So if you're looking for a great tent, you might contact Hilleberg, uh, through www.hilleberg.com backslash epic. So www.hilleberg.com backslash epic. And, uh, check out some of their tents. You might order one online or you can give them a call and drop our name as well. They'll treat you right. They've treated all of our people right. So incredible boots. We use Kinetrek Mountain Extreme Boots. Pretty regular. A lot of sheep hunts as well as some of our aggressive deer and elk. Um, even some of their lightweight hikers, incredible, uh, products.

www.kinetrek.com. K-E-N-E-T-R-E-K.com. 1-800-232-6064. Epic Outdoors is a company where we concentrate on hunting information for the western U.S., Canada, Alaska, Mexico. So we do produce a monthly magazine from December through June and then bimonthly the remainder of the year when we're all out in the field. So anyway, um, it's nine issues a year. It's $100 and that is for the magazine as well as being able to call in and get hunting advice, consulting, whatever, whether it be tags, hunts, whatever you need as far as western big game hunting. We also have a full service, license application service. Uh, this is for guys that just don't have the time to apply themselves. So while the basis of our business is draws throughout the west and obtaining tags, whether it be landowner tags or guaranteed tags through outfitters, we also have a license application service.

And this is, uh, you know, where we apply guys throughout all the western states for big game species and acquire points, tags, and what have you. So anyway, that is an additional service above and beyond the $100 and it's per state basis with a $500 cap. You cannot spend more than $500 with us in our license application service and that's doing every species, uh, throughout all western states. And so anyway, for more information, you can go to epicoutdoors.com. You can get on there, feel free to give us a call. There's some sample magazines on there as well as, uh, some different tabs where you can see what the different services are that we offer here at Epic Outdoors.

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