EP 109: Developing a Personalized Application Strategy with Jason Carter and Adam Bronson

You need to have an application strategy that makes sense, that's a well thought out strategic plan. Don't be afraid to fail. Don't let your points hold you hostage. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Back in the day, we had an 84 Toyota. And the guy that bought it was like a grandpa to me. He never had kids. He was 70 or 80 years old. We lived in Moab. And my dad would send me out with him trapping in case something happened to him, right? And so I would drive his truck on dirt roads and stuff. And anyway, he was bragging one day. He's like, yeah, you know, I got this truck. And he was so excited about it. And my dad was like, well, what kind of options did you get? And he goes, well, it's got a heater.

It had a heater. The only option. Radio deleted. The radio was gone. There was a whole other radio. Yeah. No AC. No cruise. No nothing. Amazing it even had seats. You know what I mean? And so anyway. It's amazing how far we've come. But my buddy Clint used to be excited about intermittent wipers. Because the wipers, instead of just being on or off or on or higher off, it was intermittent was actually a timed feature. And that was an option in his mind. Millennials' brains are exploding, right? They're like, what are you talking about? Like you talk to our kids about what it's like to roll your window up with the thing. Yeah. Roll it up. Roll up. Like they don't even know where the term roll up came from. No. Like we'll roll up. We'll roll up. Whether it's electric window or not, you say roll it up. They're like, what do you mean? You mean push it up? Push? Oh, dad.

I never knew that's where that term came from. What is the break off on millennials anyway? I don't know. What is the age? I don't know what that is. 1999. Chris, are you a millennial? I think so. You think so? Chris is definitely a millennial. Yeah. We'll call him that. But he did stay away from cell phones and texting for a long time. You remember? You did? I was 21 before I had a cell phone. Yeah. Let's see. And then these guys had smartphones before I did. I did not want one. I just kept my flip phone for as long as I could. It was smart. What about? It was smart. You don't remember those little 18-20s. But then once you switch, you're like, how did I do it? Because I do so much on my phone. Like pretty much, that's how you date now. Well, that and scheduling and everything. Well, even in the mid-80s, like I had an 87 Ranger when I started driving. You've got to turn the hubs in.

You want a four-wheel drive? You've got to get out when you're stuck. Get out. Walk them in. You usually try to get away with everything because you've got to get out and turn them in. So usually you're buried when you need to put hubs in. Yes. You're already buried. Yep. Above the hubs. Above the hubs. So you've got to shovel out your tire to turn the hubs in and hope it's not jam-packed with ice, mud, and it'll actually turn. Yeah. We ended up with an old 94 Toyota, and it's got turn-in hubs. And my boy's like, I love the turn-in hubs. I'm like, why? I don't get it. How should it? You know? And he's like, well, Dad, doesn't that lock everything in place? I'm like, no, that's just four-wheel drive. Oh. It's not lockers. That came around in the millennial age. Yeah. That's crazy. What are we going to talk about today? Well, we talked about trucks.

Yeah, we're already covering topics here, man. We're crushing it. We just did the wives podcast.

That's good for at least one year or two years before we have to do a repeat of that. Right? We're going to talk about Jeff's wife next time. No. Maybe Jeff and Chris will be married by then. We'll have you guys on. You guys can talk about the struggles of going through the hunting season. Okay. The difference is, I mean, just to throw this out there, the difference is, for me, I had a full-time job that was not involved in anything to do with the hunting industry. He's just justifying. Oh. The spreadsheet? No.

No. Well, just to clarify, yeah, my wife kept a spreadsheet on every dollar spent this year on hunting. That's not good. Not like a full spreadsheet. She's got an Excel spreadsheet. Everything. She takes a credit card statement and just tick, tick, tick, tick. Okay, there's that. Tick, tick, tick. There goes that. Anyway, we're digressing there. If you want to open up accounts, you can say Jeff only or Jeff and Angie. Okay? Or you open up a credit card. Jeff only with the bill coming to Epic or Jeff and Angie. My problem is I leave it there to take care of her because I'm a slacker. You're not going to get away with anything. So, yeah, it's better to just hurt. We are not condoning people keeping things from their wives because. Second accounts is a bad thing. Also known as the shell game. Shell game? The shell game. Remember? Like, you apply for $500 or $1,000 at a time.

And, oh, honey, don't worry. We're getting that back. And it's just a shell game. And then that money comes back. Oh, yeah. You explained this on the podcast. Used in this state. That's right. The same money got used in three or four states. And no harm, no foul. Well, it's hard to explain that when you're broke. Broke. Broke. And non-refundable hunting license fees. Don't come back to you. There's a few incidentals. They keep a little bit. That's just wrapped up. Casualties of war. And they send the rest back. And then I use it to play for Colorado. And then I use the same money. And they're like, well, what happens when you do draw? Duh. It's a once in a lifetime, honey. It's all good. Yeah. Duh. You guys talked about that. That was a great podcast, you guys. I got to say. You know, listen to it. It was awesome. It was all right.

I think there was a few inaccuracies portrayed by the women. But let's go forward. So today we're going to talk about our application strategies. Might even get, maybe even start off with the theories. We have a lot of crazy theories that float around here about three and four in the morning when we start getting wound up. But before we do, we want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring these podcasts. We appreciate them and their partnership as all of our partners here at Epic Outdoors. We publish a monthly magazine December through June. Bi-monthly remaining part of the year when we're out hunting and there's nothing to apply for, so to speak. There's a few here and there. Texas, Arizona Bison, a few things like that. But anyway, we do appreciate them. They sponsor everything we do. And such a great partner. We've got a lot of great products and proud to be associated with them.

And there's really none of our partners that we're not proud of. They're all really good friends of ours and make phenomenal products. And so shout out to them. All right. Well, let's jump into this, Bronson. Yeah, we thought about, we each wrote an article in the January issue of the magazine. Just basically going over Jason and I's thought process of how we go, how we approach every year. And rather than just going line upon line through that, which I think there are a few main topics there that we could do that. But maybe that will be part two or three of this podcast. But we just kind of want to talk about philosophy of getting tags in general. And I don't know how long that's going to take us today. But it really seems like, and we've really, I don't know, it's changed our view, but really maybe just reinforced the last couple years.

Either our own philosophy or, and it comes from talking to clients too. Whether it be our licensed application clients or hunters that call us wanting advice on where should I apply? How do I use my points? I want to get the most out of them. Bang for the buck. You know, it's a great moisture years. The right moon phase. It's, you know, it's a unit on the upswing, downswing. And man, some people will overthink things to death to the point they do points only and they're in the same boat next year. Or they play it so conservative they never burn any of their points. And so they're getting older. We're all getting a day older. Some of these people may, you know, maybe they're in their 60s or approaching 70s and they're still doing points only. And not telling, we're not today going to try to preach to everybody to do things like we do.

But I think if anything else, the message of get after it and use your points, don't let them hold you hostage. Let's talk about that for a bit. That's right. And I think what we were talking about earlier today, and I'd just like to bring that up again, is point systems are great. You know, all the states have different systems and way of allocating tags. There's a finite resource and there's a lot of demand for that resource. And so how do you do it? And, of course, the states want to maintain budgets and stay in the black. And so there's a lot of, you know, so they need to extract some cash out of us, let's be honest. But as we go forward, you know, we were talking about we love all these states. It's nice to New Mexico doesn't have a point system or Idaho doesn't have a point system or whatever. So it's nice to have that.

It's also nice to go to Colorado like deer and elk or whatever antelope and be able to know when you can get drawn. You can make a plan, right? Yeah. But those points are holding us hostage like Adam's talking about, like Utah. It's a whole different ballgame. Over in Colorado, we can draw with one, two, three points or even leftover tags and gain a point, right? Here in Utah, it's unbelievable. You get one elk tag in 20 plus years or whatever. And because I've spent 20 years getting these points, I'm going to make the most of this specific tag. And there's so much pressure. The weather needs to be right. The antler growth needs to be right. All my buddies need to get the time off. And not only am I going to take the time off, I'm going to take a week or two off in preseason and put so much emphasis on this particular tag that they do it right. You're seeing teams of hunters.

You're seeing guys hire guides that wouldn't otherwise hire guides. And it's putting pressure on these animals. And it's decreasing the age class, so to speak. These guys are making good on trophy animals because it's their one shot in their life. And being a resident, you've only been putting in for elk or you've only been putting in for deer. This is it. Like, you can realistically think to yourself, I'm only going to draw this quality tag in the next 20 years maybe. Yeah, they do have random components to the draw, but that's kind of where Jason's going. I think the states like Utah, Wyoming, Colorado that have a, well, Arizona to some extent can throw that into. A percentage of their tags that are given to the maximum point holders. Those are maybe the states. Let's talk about those first because those are the ones. In Nevada, you can kind of lump in.

Even though it's a random draw and they score your points. I think people still hoard Nevada points for only .240 rifle or only the one elk tag they want. And maybe elk's a little bit different because they do have a seven-year waiting period. And you're going to get two in your life for all intents and purposes. But for the most part, these tags that give a percentage to max, people, a lot of times they're chasing something that they think they're one or two points behind. But really that might be 10 years behind because it's not just one or two points behind. It's how many individuals are ahead of you. And Colorado elk is a terrible, a perfect example of this, but a terrible example of chasing a moving target that you will never catch. If you've got 20 points and you're chasing 210, 201, you're chasing something you'll never get because you're not four or five years behind or six.

You're 200 people behind ahead of you. Yes. And they're only sending out two. And they're only taking out a handful of them a year. And you'll never live long enough. And people aren't living long enough. And we can get into that today about what are you going to die with? Are you going to die with a flash bank account? And obviously dying with money is a little bit different because you've got family and kids and grandkids. But dying with points is not. You can't take them with you and you can't give them to anybody else either. That's right. But I think there's also a fine line is utilizing the points and developing a strategy that makes sense. So some of these states, it does make sense to hold on them a little bit for a short term, whatever that may be, maybe even long term.

But then you also need the short term strategy of utilizing points often, drawing often, applying for easier to draw stuff that you're willing to accept in Idaho or New Mexico or whatever, and going regular. And people want to go regular. But like Adam's saying, are you going to die with memories? Are you going to die with hunting experiences, with family? Are you going to die with points? And we're having guys call us and stop applying. They're like, I'm 77 years old. I'm 72 years old. We've had multiple of them. I got 16 points in Arizona. I've got this. And they were always holding out for those very, very top end times. 30 rifle rut hunts or something, for instance. Yeah. Yeah. For instance. And so anyway, it's the availability of tags coming down to being extremely tough, tough, tough, tough to get the very upper echelon, so to speak, type tags.

And we're chasing that because we want to. And at the same time, while chasing that, you don't draw anything as you go along. And you end up with a lot of points. And you end up frustrated at the system. And you're investing in the system. You're investing into the states. And so there's things that you can do out there. And Adam, we've done it. Jeff and Chris, we've all done it where we've gone out on a limb. And you are okay to fail. Yeah. You need to be okay to eat a tag. Don't be afraid to fail. Yeah, don't. And be realistic. Yeah, about your points. If you're chasing a moving target and you're not going to catch it, you can hope in a random draw, but you can hope for 10, 15, 20 more years. And maybe we can throw out some examples even. 5 or 10 or 15 years can be monumental in what a state changes.

10 minutes in a commission meeting with a stroke of a pen can totally alter a whole state's management practices for elk or mule deer or individual units, you know, management strategy. And throw it all off kilter from what you invested 20 years into. And now with a stroke of a pen or a catastrophic winter die off, look at Colorado. There's still so many people applying in Colorado with the mentality from 2003 to 2007 when it was off the charts incredible. And they saw hunts then and they want those again. We all do. But it's a new place in Colorado right now. Tags have generally came up. Nothing's as top heavy as it was. It's all moderated. But people want the same experience with their points and they're holding out for only four season tags or the only the best season tag, third season. And the point creep's gone through the roof.

And you can't simply draw what, you know, what you once had with the points you had. And when you get there, the experience isn't the same either. You know, we talk about taking advantage of opportunities while they're in front of a Utah elk's another one. There's still people, we talk to every year, they're holding out in Utah for X or Y. And X or Y isn't what X or Y was eight or ten years ago. And so they're probably going to be disappointed even though they're two to five years away from getting X or Y unit. Other opportunities that pass us by, Jason, we were talking today, like the archery hunts on the strip. Remember? Yeah. You used to get to buy those over the counter. Yeah, there was archery over the counter. And we're watching these opportunities leave us. Yes. Where they're talking about changing the landowner tag system in Nevada. And I'm good with that.

I think it's healthy for deer to only, you know, have landowner tag hunters hunt them one season. It'd be like Ponce County landowner tag is good for all seasons. It just doesn't make sense. And so, and I get all that. But we're watching these opportunities leave us. Same thing with general. You watch the over-the-counter general hunts here in Utah go to basically a draw. Yeah, they're still considered general. But they go to a draw. And now we've got people complaining that their kids can't get a tag every year or they can't get a tag every year and have these family experiences. At the same time, you have other guys complaining that the DWR sucks. The quality's down. They don't know how to manage. Well, so the DWR is sitting there going, well, we've got people on this end. We've got people on this end. What are we supposed to do?

Then we also have the Henry's, Oak Creek's, Ponce County, San Juan, whatever, Buckcliffe's, Vernon. And we're managing them in a certain way. We're managing general a certain way. But everybody wants to make general like those units, which they're amazing. The genetics are crazy, incredible. And I understand that. But these states are trying to manage with the political pressure and the social pressure from us as hunters and make everybody happy. And you can't do it. And I think these systems are so far down the road that you've gained so many points over the course of time. Even if it's eight in Colorado, a guy's going to apply for a unit that some people drew with eight last year, nine guaranteed it. And then it's just going to be out of reach again because that was eight last year, not eight this year. Just chasing. And so he's going to draw, right? So two years, three years go by.

And by then, a winter kill happens or the dates keep creeping earlier. And then he's like, I'm going to wait for the next five-year season structure. Pretty soon he's waiting five or six years. Now he's got 13, 14. And I've talked, Adam, you and I have talked to, I don't know, 10 people so far, maybe even in the last week. But each that have 13 to 14 points, and I'm telling them to go on X unit that takes nine. And they're like, yeah, but I don't know that. I could wait a couple more years and get a 35 fourth or I could wait a couple more years. Okay. But by then, it's going to take 17, 18, 19. And the year you draw, it's, again, five days. Predicated on the weather and everything. It could be like you. You were up hunting four season, 10,000 feet. Terrible hunt. Well, now, in that example, you can't turn a tag in, you know, the day before the hunt in Colorado.

So you're committing 30 days ahead of time, I'm all in. You can't turn it in and get your points back anymore. So 30 days out, you don't know what the weather, unless you, you know, unless you subscribe to some horoscope magazine that I don't watch. There's a big difference between October 3rd and November 5th. Farmer's almanac stuff that you believe 60 days in advance of weather. But you know what I mean? You can do it. And the weather during your hunt will have more to do in Colorado with their quality of hunt than anything else. Anything else. And so there's a lot of guys, Adam, that hit. And Jeff, too. We're talking to guys that are saying, so you're telling me that's a good use of my points, whether it be 10 or 20 points or 15 or whatever, 5, 3. Hey, that's a good use of my points, and I'm going to have a good hunt. And our point is, I don't know if you're going to have a good hunt.

I'm just telling you to go hunt. Go freaking hunt. You know, it's like us, Adam. We had, I killed a good deer in Colorado last year. Oh, with the exception of that one deer, you would have said that hunt sucked. Yeah, it was. You would have said that. I didn't kill a deer the same season. Nor did you even see one that you wanted to kill. No, it wasn't even one that was real tempting. Okay, that unit takes 8 to 9 points to draw to guarantee it. And so guys would come back, and they do, and they're like, man, you guys told me that. I got to tell you, it sucked. Well, the weather was terrible. The whole west, the whole west was struggled to kill big deer. And so, Jeff, I wanted to go in on your theory a little bit about risk management and being able to eat a tag and take the risk and go for the gold once in a while. And you had a whole theory going on yesterday.

I talked to, I was telling Jason yesterday, I said, Jason, the great thing about you is you're willing to dive in. Into a unit that may not traditionally be known as a trophy unit, but you're willing to burn your points and go. And it's so, I think it's so important for a guy to sit back and say, hey, I'm going, I'm going in. Instead of sitting back and say, hey, I'm just going to sit here and, you know, I'm going to drive this, I'm going to draw this best tag in the state. Okay, the year 2012, so when I was going to apply, I remember I was over, I was on the SFW committee up to cash chapter. I went and talked to Jason Lundahl. Jason Lundahl had a good dude up there. He had a buddy that had the same amount of points as I did. And we were getting close, like, we were two years out of max for deer, right? Two points out of max. Two points out of max.

It might have been eight years out of max. We sat there and did the math, and we said, well, before we even get a chance to be in that pool, it was like eight years down the road. Even though we were just two points away, eight years. It's the individuals that are above you and the rate at which they're being drawn every year. That's really what matters. And I look across the state. So at that point, I could look across the state. I could draw almost anything, right? There wasn't much I could not draw right then. But eight years even from being in that pool, right, that max point pool. To get that tag. So I drew that year. I drew the Henrys. Muzzle loader. And. In the random, right? In the random. And I know, like, mentally, I know. Like, I'm eight years away. Well, it turns out it was a year kind of like this year. It was a tough year. It was drought ridden. 2013, if I remember. Yes.

Terrible. Yeah. Now, and that's just kind of looking at the guys who had the points that were applying at that time. Not thinking about the guys that could jump over. Switch from rifle to muzzle. Right. Or go from points only to. Yeah. Or antelope island to the Henrys. Right. Or whatever. Yeah. It will throw you off. So I could be chasing for years and years and years. And so at that point, I was like, okay, I'm keeping it. Even though I knew I was going into it with the risk, thinking, you know, it was a drought year. I knew it was a drought year. Oh, yeah. But I did see one big deer early that made me. We had hunters. We had hunters. Turned them in. Our hunter turned it in that year, Jeff. It was not a great year. Yeah. I remember the year very good. I mean, I. Very well. I thought I could make a miracle happen. Anyway, I didn't. I ate my tag. I went through the whole hunt.

But my point is with Jason was, is, is his, the different tags that he's going for are not necessary. He's not. He didn't apply for 13. You didn't apply for 13B, right? Well, when I had maximum deer points, yeah. I went on a, on a pair of sheds that were found. And then Adam and I. You took a huge risk. That's right. And Adam and I went down there, realized that that deer was dead, nowhere to be found or whatever. Maybe he moved a little. He was not. And so we went out. Never been heard from again, for all intents and purposes, right? Yes. Never been heard from again. So we, yeah. But you went with a hunch. And you had max. You could have held out for the standard 13B and 13A only on crushingly wet years, you know, when the seasons are good. But you didn't. You went on a limb. But you were guaranteed to draw, too, that year. Yeah, guaranteed. Because you went to the 12B side.

And got a tag. And very well. You killed the biggest deer, I'm going to say, probably of your life. But with Jason Carter, you never know. But 270 plus, a giant. But if it wasn't for that deer, we talk about it a lot, Jason. It took that deer to make it the most epic hunt of our lives. We sat around the campfire for like four hours. It was. Before we even started, you know, it was below zero or whatever. It was freezing. But we just soaked it in. We knew this night it's not going to happen probably again. But if that deer wouldn't have happened, it's not like we had three 220 bucks to go kill. No. I mean, we might have turned one up. We might have. And it was a chance. Keep in mind, when he walked by you, Adam, you were like, I think he's dead. He just had inlines going everywhere. Just get him. Yeah, he's heavy, 32 inches, and maybe 215. And I'm like, we'll kill that deer.

Because by this point, it's looking sketch, right? Yeah. And again, I'm probably one of the very few guys with max deer points that wouldn't apply, that didn't apply for this trip. Right. And that's my point on some of this stuff. And it's not be okay to eat a tag. It's not a measure of you being a man. It's not fun to eat tags. Jeff? No. Who has ate more great tags than me? You are the king of eating tags. I ate a 142 Pinion Canyon tag. Ate it. I ate a Nevada Ely elk tag. A draw. Ate it. My one Utah draw elk, I ate it. A 380 bull walked by me at 12 yards. I ate it. Okay? Because it was back in the day when there was giants. There was 400. I had an Idaho super tag for deer. I ate it. I had an Idaho super tag for elk. I ate it. Okay. Now, I'm going to throw this disclaimer out there. Jason had a 205-inch buck that he drove past that he was just not interested. Okay.

Now, that brings me to another point. This is the next point. That brings me to another point. Yes. And we were talking about this, Adam. And you and Jeff and Chris, everybody, you guys know. There's times when you pass bucks or elk or whatever that you would kill on the last day. You'd be happy with them even. But there's times when you just go for it. Go for it. I'm going all in. Yes. And, you know, there's a – obviously, you're not done. You don't punch your tag and you're over. And maybe you've got two weeks left. And you're banking on the fact that I just – I think we can turn up something good. This is a great year. Idaho seems like deer move early some year. You just have a feeling up there this could be one of those years. Yes. And then the next year you went with kind of that same feeling because it worked the year before and it didn't work. It was terrible. It was different.

Absolutely terrible. And so, yeah, we could have killed the $190 buck or $180 buck or whatever, $170 buck, whatever it is. But if you want to kill a 200-inch deer and everybody that we're talking to does and how do you do it and how do this and that, well, you eat a lot of freaking tax. You eat a lot of tax. Okay? And you're driving by or walking by or whatever. Great bucks. Yes, you are. But it's okay. And I think that's part of it. The downside is, and what the gist of this is, Adam, tell me where I'm missing it. Tell me where I've got fouled up logic, is that these point systems have held us hostage and we're stressed. We're pressured. We don't just – we're not willing to eat that tag. We're so scared we're going to eat that tag. And don't fully enjoy the hunt. And then when I go down and I'm with my buddies and we're down at the coffee shop or whatever is I ate my tag.

I'm a poor hunter, so to speak. Yeah. And it just can't be – you can't – that label shouldn't follow you. I mean, you shouldn't self-impose that upon yourself. You just shouldn't. But – and just a real brief point of clarification. These states we're talking about, you can drive – steer the ship, so to speak, pick the year you want to go. If you already have the points to draw unit X or Y and you're right there and you're picking the right year because you got a son or daughter getting married or you got something big, there's reasons to put it off. But we're talking about – what we're talking about is chasing the dream that is not within reach. And being realistic, I guess. You can always get lucky. Jeff, you drew lucky in the random draw like you said. You were with eight years, but you got lucky and drew it. Those happen. You react. You go do those hunts.

But we're not trying to squash people's dreams, but be realistic and go hunting more often because the more often you hunt, you'll A, become a better hunter. When you fail, you become a better hunter. Even if you eat tags, you become a better hunter for the tags you do get down the road. But also hunting more often is going to increase your chances of killing the type of deer elk that you want instead of all your eggs into one basket on a max point Wyoming elk tag or a max point Wyoming deer tag that I couldn't even tell you where to use your points with the certainty that you're going to even have a chance at 190 plus. And you did it, Adam. You went up there. You went up there. You had max points for Wyoming deer. And you go up there. And you ended up – it wasn't a guarantee that you would drop, but you happened to drop.

It was still 10% chance, but I just realized there's nothing – I should have been hunting H and G every time I could drop. I should have been. And my schedule in September, which is when those seasons open up, is always busy. It's Utah elk, Utah sheep, desert sheep season is always opening up. I just never could make time to do it. So I put in for that one only because it's in November. It was after I'd be done. Not that I thought that's my best chance to kill a 200-inch deer because I knew it wasn't. I knew going to general and a GRH and hunting multiple times. If I had to hunt it four or five times, I would most certainly have a couple of bucks on the wall that were probably bigger, bigger than the one I killed, the 128. 230 plus. Who knows? Or even 190 plus, which is bigger than the deer I shot. But then we have a die-off. It's winter 2016, 2017 happens. How long is it to come back?

And I think part of that, Adam, and you brought up something very valid, is the points it's taken to draw. So I'm looking at this unit for Colton, and we could apply this all to ourselves. I'm looking at these units for Colton. Your son. My son. So I could pay the cheap tag fee, and I might get it. Okay? He might get it. Or we could go the expensive. It was 100% with four, and he had six. I can go with the expensive. Now I'm paying $1,283, right? Keep in mind, it's 200 and something for the youth on the regular. It's $1,000. $1,000 difference. And we apply for that, $1,283. Guess what the drawing odds were this year? Okay? The year he drew, 2018, it took six points. Chunked six. What do you have? Took six points. 100% with six. What do you have? Because everybody wanted to use them. You don't know the mentality out there. Yeah. They increased permit fees and all that in Wyoming.

They increased the permit fees. The year of 2017 was off the charts for big bulls in Wyoming, so everybody's excited. You couldn't do anything wrong in 2017. There was big bulls dying everywhere. And so people are excited. So they all apply. Well, you don't know what the general feel is out there. It takes hundreds of people to jump into a draw to really change things, not necessarily for that particular hunt, but statewide. That's what happened. And so that's my point with Colorado. That's my point with Utah or some of these other states. Arizona, you could draw a late elk tag with six to eight points and go hunting. And they do have big bulls. Yeah, they're broken. Yeah, it's November. I get all those things, but they are opportunities to kill a giant. And there are a few out there that are killed. And so anyway, don't just try to barely get drawn.

With Colton, I could have tried to barely get him drawn, and we would have sat home. Yeah. And normal reasoning says, okay, I got two more points than I needed there. Don't do that. Do something else. But no, you knew what you wanted. Yeah. And you're just like, whatever. Hey, whatever. I want that tag. What have you been waiting for? This is what we've been waiting for. Yeah. So last year, he's going to be a youth. So you're, ah, he could get it for $2.80 or whatever that youth fee is. But then if you don't get it, you're weighing out. You know, he's going out into the world, you know, between, you know, maybe three to six, eight years before he can hunt again. Because he's going to go all this college and different stuff. And time is, you got him under the household right now. I know I can take him. Now, in the next five, six years, you don't know that. So let's talk about time.

And go ahead, Jeff. Well, I was just going to say, and when people, like, I have had people ask me, when you're talking about force a draw, what are you talking about? Well, that's exactly what we talked about in this situation with Jason. You forced the draw, right? Yeah. You did everything you did. You can tell when you're going to get drawn. Yeah. You knew when you were going to go. You forced that draw. You pushed it through. Now, you could have just gone in at the rent, but you kind of forced it. You went above and beyond to make sure you get the tag to go. So if you hear us use that lingo, that's kind of what we're meaning. I'm glad you clarified that. I'm glad you clarified that. I think another example, Adam, you and I use Arizona desert sheep and Nevada desert sheep as the one chance to kill a giant or kill something great. We know Adam's going to draw Utah sheep.

There's a few units he could get now. You've killed one. I drew. Yeah, 10 years ago. I drew. And I killed a 159-incher, and it was an unbelievable experience. But you gambled. You gambled a little bit on that one, too. Yeah. You could have held out for a couple of units you couldn't draw. And now, seeing now, Utah sheep used to be considered just average, never going to be great. And now it is kind of great in some of these units. Fast forward to now. We've got a sheep. Adam, you're going to get a sheep. And yet we still look at Arizona, and there's a lot of units, and we cover this in our magazine very well, very clear, there's a lot of units that max point holders are pulling out the tags. Yeah. And they're not available to non-residents. 22 and 24B. Don't get a chance. That's right.

Even though we can apply for them legally, we are not in the draw because there's so many max point holders that are applying. Sometimes both the tags are two or three. All of them go to a max point, draw on the 20%, and so there's no random. The A7A or whatever. And so we analyze that every year. And so the writing was on the wall that if Adam or I or Jeff or Chris, anybody wants to apply for desert sheep, and you guys all do, if you want to draw and you want to kill a giant, again, the strategy is to kill a big one because we have one, okay, is you've got to go in a weird, quirky something, and you've got to take a chance of failing to kill that kind of animal. You've got to take a chance. There's not a bad hunt in Arizona if you were to pick one. There's not a bad one.

But there's some that maybe have an unknown or a wild card upside, and that's kind of a little bit of what you're talking about. That's it. You know, one that's, if you go to the ones they always kill 150 to 160 rams, and that's all they ever kill, and they kill five to ten rams a year on them, that's probably not the wild card. It probably isn't. Right. But even, Adam, you and I have talked to that, and I agree with you 100%, but even we've talked about the statistics on paper are truly indicative of the hunters that drew. Some guys just want to kill a ram. I had a guy in my unit that this year in Arizona, the tag that I drew, he was hunting with a bow, and he said, anything over 140, I'm going to shoot, and his ram went 143. Yeah, he just wanted to shoot a ram with a bow, which is admirable. Like, he was not ever going to pick up a gun.

Yeah, and in fact, he was on a ram that was bigger than the ram he shot, and that ram moved. He's full draw. That ram moves. The kill zone is covered up. So he just pivoted over to the other ram and shot it, a smaller ram. Yeah. Literally, the experience for him was everything. It was everything. And where mine, I want to put my hands on, I wanted to use it as putting my hands on something special. Like, just, oh, my gosh. And he is. Of course I want the experience. You guys were all there. Oh, unreal. Of course I want that. And so, anyway, that's what I think part of it is going out. We went out on a limb. Yeah, that room, that unit did produce a couple of 170s. We knew the genetics were there for potential. Had no idea you'd kill a 180 plus there. No track record. No track record. They proved otherwise. For that kind of ram, a 180 plus, you shouldn't leave, you know, 22, 24, whatever.

The Mexicana units. Yeah. Yes. Should not leave them. Or 28. Whatever on paper. And the rumblings, the guides know them well. They know specific rams, and we get to filter through some of that. And so, anyway, that's kind of my point. Just, there's some things. You've got to look at the availability of things to draw. Okay? So you look at that. This is what we can draw. Now, what is realistic? What are you actually in the draw for? What is realistic? And then making the best out of those tags that you can. These points are holding us hostage. People are working harder than ever. We've got rangefinders that are amazing. Guns that are amazing. Even thermal imaging and crazy stuff starting to come out, which is crazy. Yeah. And so where is this going? All this pressure. Age class is going to slip a bit.

Again, game and fish agencies are trying to manage, but they're dealing with social pressures. And then they're also dealing with biological issues. And they're trying to make everybody happy. And then we're ticked when we use eight or nine points in Colorado. And it's a dry year. Yeah. And we eat those tags. Yeah. Well, and another thing is most of us here, we're all in the mid-30s to mid-40s. You know, we're all what we feel. We're in our prime. And, you know, if you don't believe it, just ask our wives because we try to act like we're 21 still. And, you know, we're... I'm as good once as I ever was. Yeah. All right. But where I'm going with that is we're not 21 anymore. You know, just look at us somewhere. We're not. Yeah, we're not. Let's just leave it at that. We're not. So... Look at the bags under my eyes. That's right. We're losing sleep.

We're at one 3 in the morning till we're... You know, it's harder to get into shape every year if you do take a few of the months off in the wintertime, which inevitably when we're in office desk jobs, you know, we don't have as much time to get out in the winter. And I know poor us. But where I'm going with that is we have the best bodies and physically that we have right now is that we're ever going to have. And so you can't predict the future for them. If you say, hey, I'm going to wait 10 years, do points only for 10 years, and then I want to start crushing the west and draw a bunch of tags. There's no guarantees. You know, we were all part of a hunt this year with one of our sheep clients that acquired a tag and the week after was diagnosed with ALS. And that's a death sentence. And you just slowly die on the vine. And we all partook in that last hunt with him.

We watched it even from February till we took him hunting in August and then got him back in December. You know, how someone's life can change so fast. And that's one example. There's, you know, there's a lot of other things, whether it's cancer or whether it's just life in general hitting you, whether it's one of your kids, you know, or you lose a spouse or something you can't predict. There are no guarantees. These are not, this is not points. They're not money in the bank. And I'll be guaranteed when I want to spend them, but I'm going to get what I want. There's no guarantee you can spend them. And there's no guarantee in what you spend them on is going to be a result that you want. I agree 100%. And I think, too, and not that hunting's everything. If I'm on my deathbed. If we're dying, there's more important things. If I'm on my deathbed, that's 100%. Family comes first in my mind.

But I'm not thinking about, man, maybe I am. Man, I got all these points. And that could be another 220-incher that's really important on my deathbed and going to go with me. But having said that, you have memories, hunts with families, hunts with friends, special moments in your life. Or we can come back to work, come back to work. We can work all fall because we never drew a tag. We can continue to use our, you know, vacation to work or whatever instead of enjoying some of these things, going on hunts, realizing it's not the end of the world if we don't kill one. But it is the end of the world if we die with 20-plus points and we didn't have those experiences. We didn't have the family time. We didn't have good times with our buddies. I mean, there's some amazing things that happen in the field that only happen in the field. Yeah, that's what makes life fulfilling. We all have things.

And obviously, if you're listening to us, hunting is probably one of those things in your life that fulfills you, whether that's individually or with your family, friends, whatever. You wouldn't be probably tuning in to our podcast if hunting wasn't a big deal in your life, just like it is ours. We have other things within our family and our relationships that are very important to us. But hunting, for us, is dovetailed into that with our families. And what we're just basically trying to say is do it while you can. Do it now. Get after it because there's no guarantees, you know. And that can be a whole different thing. So your employment status could change, all right? Maybe you have more vacation now and, you know, time off and you have seniority and all that changes. And now you're starting at the bottom and a new career and all that. And you have no time.

And you thought your 10 or 15 or 20 points, you could start crushing it. I mean, there's just no guarantees. Just a simple employment, you know, downturn in the economy or whatever could change how you can hunt. You know, it doesn't have to be a physical or a life or death situation. Just a life situation, you know, things like that. I agree with you. And what's interesting is you're not going to change the states and their systems. You're not going to change it. And more than likely, it's going to get worse. But you can change you. You can change your mentality. It's okay to save points here and there where it makes sense. Adam and I consult, I don't know how many times a day, dozens. And we're guys are like, you know, and we go through each state and we're like, here it makes sense to gain points for your goals. But you need to draw fairly regular. He wants to draw fairly regular.

But he also doesn't want to just draw a deer tag in Arizona every single year where he could have been doing that in Colorado and have 10 years where the points are whatever and hunt a trophy coos deer in Arizona with those points. And so there's things that make sense. We're not saying blow your points in every single state no matter what. You need to have an application strategy that makes sense, that's a valuable, you know, well thought out, strategic plan. And dealing with the pressures that we're dealing with today, with the tag allocation systems, all of these things. And so. Well, and for people, you mentioned people maybe back east or people that are just in general brand new to the western hunting application game. Make a plan that you can come out. I know it's a little different for us. We're in the west.

Every western state around us is within an eight-hour drive and we're hunting. It's different for you. So I realize logistically there's a lot of reasons to build points if you live further away from the western states. Because you can't, both logistically, time or hiring a guide or scouting or all that, that's completely different. So I don't want to paint that with a broad brush. But having said that, be realistic from the start if you're going to start. Have shorter term plans. Because longer term plans in the states that have 20 plus years established point systems, you shouldn't even be thinking about that. Now, that doesn't mean you shouldn't start putting in for desert sheep or some of these. Because for most people, you'll never be able to get one otherwise. You know, it's a $50,000, $60,000 price tag to go buy a tag out western Mexico.

So for 90% of plus people, that's how you're going to have to choose it. But we're not talking about sheep. We're talking about, if you say, I want to hunt the San Juan in my life, I'm going to put it in there until I draw. That's not a realistic expectation. It's not. That's a glorified points only application. And maybe in the years you can't really go. Those are smart. Put in there. If you get drawn, you make the best of it. But if you're just starting, maintain that, hey, I want to go every two or three years. And I'm going to go on the tags that I can draw every two or three years. And keep that mentality. And you'll be fine. I think you made a great point on, you said one thing that really struck out. Of course, it's all valid. But you said a glorified points only application. And I think that's critical.

A lot of guys are like, I just want to gain points for desert sheep or Rocky Mountain bighorns. Well, if you drew a tag, would you take it? Well, hell yeah. If I drew a tag, I'd take it. Okay. Then apply for it. Because in a lot of these states, you are not fronting the tag feast. There is no difference price wise. And so if you don't draw, you're going to get a point. Freaking put in for the animal. Put in for the unit. It might happen. If it does happen, you call us. React and do it. We're going to help you be successful. We work with outfitters. Nevada points only desert? What's that? Nevada points only desert? People do it, Jeff. People do it all the time. And I understand. I understand. I'm going to get a divorce. I've already got 14 hunts up in Canada and Alaska set up. Oh, okay. I get that one. Having said that, very few people are in that boat. That's right. They may not want it.

They do have a hunt lined up. But they would take a sheep if they got one. Yeah, and if you've got 20 points in Wyoming for Rocky Mountain Bacorn and you are in the driver's state, you can force the drought like we talked about earlier. And this is not a good year because you have another trip planned or you've got a son or daughter getting married on September 15th and next year. Yeah, that's a points only scenario. I understand. They're in the driver's state. I understand. But those things should happen year to year. Wipe the slate clean every year. All right, I'm back in the next year. Let's get this done. Before you blow a knee out, you have 13 back surgeries and you can't walk. And now you're in and out of the hospital for three years trying to get something right. I mean, look at Tiger Woods, for instance. I mean, how many years did he have to take off?

I mean, there was a lot of things in his life, but a lot of them were physical. And that guy was a machine. He was invincible until he hasn't been for 10 years. You know, and now he's kind of back. But that guy, you know, we can be that guy. Well, I had a guy tell me, he says, Jason, I'm 57 years old. How many more years do I have to be effective in the hills, really take advantage of a tag that I might draw? And I'm like, well, 70-ish, if you're dang lucky. Some guys are doing it at 75 plus. But I don't know that they're as effective as you are at 50. And so really, let's call it 65. He goes, that's eight years. Eight years. You can wrap your arms around eight years. All of a sudden, you can see the end and you're like, oh. You know, and not, again, not that our lives should be 100% focused on hunting and hunting's all that we're going to take to our grave. That's wrong.

You shouldn't be doing that. Family, friends, the kind of person you are, being honest, whatever. Those are all of those traits that are more important than hunting. But hunting creates family memories. It's memories with you and your buddies. It's really, you know, about everything we have and what we do. I mean, we all have a few little hobbies on the side, but it's really the makeup of the person we are. And so that's important to us. And as we're focusing on, you know, we're focusing, of course, on hunting as a company here. But, you know, as people's hobbies, your mentality and the point of this application strategy is that you guys have put together is you have to build it. You have to have a plan. But don't go into your plan thinking so long term that you don't get experience. You know, I've heard you guys say it multiple times. Experience is huge.

Like, you don't want to draw your first tag as an Arizona random draw on one of the best units in the state. And you've never pulled a bow back before. Well, you want to kill 350, but you've never killed a 300. Or an elk. And it seems like I'm talking to more and more people. And they're coming up with that on their own. And there are guys that they, hey, I'm getting 8 to 10 points or 15 in some of these states. My kids are getting older. I'm going to start hunting. But I'm hunting Colorado every year. A cheap land or tag New Mexico for elk just to shoot bulls. Just to know what it's like to call a bull in tight, knowing you can move what you can't get away with. And all the setup and hunting elk. And there's validity to that. And you only get there one way. If the first bull you've ever drawn a bow back on is a 350 plus bull, there's a lot that can go wrong.

Because you've never done it once before in your life. I had a guy I was talking to yesterday. And he says, I have 20 elk points. I want to make good use of them. This year I'm having rotator surgery, you know, yada, yada. And he's like, so I'm not going to be shooting a bow. So I'll be doing the early rifle. What do you think? And we get going on this, okay? And at the end of the phone call, I said, what? At the end of the day, what are you looking for? Like, what do you want? And he goes, I'd shoot a bull over 300 inches. What have you been waiting 20 years to do? 20 years, Jeff. He could have drawn a couple of tags by now. Even two lates plus have five points. And that's if he waited until the eight or ten years until he got in the max point draw. He could have drawn in the random after three or four points.

Yes, or he could have taken part in an awesome archery tag unit, 27, unit one, whatever, already had it done five years ago when he was even healthier than he is now. Because we don't get healthier as we get older. This is Arizona we're talking about. Okay? Yeah. And so, anyway, I just think the biggest point of all of this, state systems are tough. It is tough to get these once-in-a-lifetime type tags. And I'm going to put once-in-a-lifetime meaning Utah elk, I think it's once-in-a-lifetime. Pretty much. Yeah. If you get a random tag, okay. Okay. That might happen, but it's a once-in-a-lifetime. Nevada elk, let's call it a once-in-a-lifetime, maybe a twice-in-a-lifetime. Okay? And so, when you start realizing that, you start wrapping your hands around it, you really understand the necessity of applying everywhere. Multiple states. You have to apply everywhere.

I'm not saying everybody run to Oregon and apply. Do not do that. Okay? Don't do it in Washington. Don't do it. It's not worth it from a non-resident perspective. Yeah. Or California. Don't do it. Okay? So, there's things. And Adam and I, honestly, Adam and I consult, and we steer guys away from things that don't make sense. There's some guys that say, that $160 non-resident license fee isn't worth it to me for this and this and this. And then we reiterate, 10 years down the road, do you think your... Perspective will change. And they're like, no or yes. And if it does, then we say, well, you really should consider this. If they say, well, yeah, mule deer down there, I really want to kill them, but right now I'm focused on elk. But mule deer are important. Okay. You should be doing that. For $10 or $15 for each additional species you apply for, you can get a point. Why not? Yeah.

Maybe you don't even think about that you have them. There's Adam and I and Jeff and Chris, you guys. We're applying for things, and we know there's points there. But I couldn't tell you how many because I know I'm not even going to draw, so I don't think about it. I'm doing things I don't think about. Here's an example. Arizona. I applied for sheep, deer, and elk from the get-go when I started. Because those are the three that probably most people think about when they think of Arizona. Big deer, big elk, and desert sheep. Yeah, the whole- Yeah. Yeah, you're fronting and all that. Fronting fees, paper apps. Well, and this is back when you were talking to your wife and you're just saying, those fees are going to come back. Yeah. This is that whole era. But antelope didn't, they still don't do a lot for me. All right? Well, you've killed an 87-inch or 88-inch.

But that's where this story's going. Oh, okay. I didn't do it for the first 10-plus years that I did deer, elk, and sheep. And then one day we were talking like, I don't know, something clicked. And I'm just like, might as well just start putting it on a whim. It might have been the $10. Well, it could have been that, yes. But it was just like, all right, I'll do it. Eight or nine years later, boom, I draw out of the random blue unit 10 and killed probably the biggest antelope I'll ever kill in my life. Dude, you killed an 88-inch truck chaser. He wasn't that big, but he was an 88. But he was really good. And I'm very happy, self-guided. But my point is, I still don't care much about antelope. I'm appreciative of that hunt. I respect that. I'm not saying I don't care about a boon and crock antelope. They're fun. And I tease that I hate them. I tease them. They're pretty fun.

But there's an example of, all right, I didn't know when. And then some of the years I did do points only. Well, that year I didn't. I got a charge on my card that year, and I thought I drew an out tag. And I turn, I'm like, oh, no, that's 550, not 650. I drew an antelope. Oh, okay. I don't know. Am I happy or sad? I'm happy. I'm happy. That's right. Luckily, I didn't draw anything else more important. I almost gave the tag to my son that year. But I just, it was, you know, I had to drive back to Utah to get him and get the paper done. I'm like, oh, I'll just stick it down here and let what happens happen. That's right. And had a buddy down there. I had a guy I talked to yesterday that, you know, he's coming to the end of his application career. He's mid-70s. And he says, go look at this buck. He killed it with Sam, this and this and this. And I go look at it. It's a stud buck.

And he goes, I gave that tag to my grandson. You can legally do that in Arizona. And he says, I'm going to continue to play the point system. I'm going to go watch my grandsons have good hunts. Until they're 18 years old, you can do that. That's the way he's going to give points away. That's the way he's going to do it. And how cool is that? That's freaking awesome. You know, so there's little nuances like that throughout the state's residence. And Utah can do that. Idaho, you can do that. Go ahead, Chris. What we were talking about, it's, it's a lot of this is about experiences. It's about getting out in the field. It's about learning. Learning for me is a big one. So if you have opportunities to do that, why not take them? You know, so this antelope, maybe you didn't have anything else that year. So why not go? Why not have that experience?

And maybe you've, a lot of times you've got a kid with you or, you know, you're sharing memories. Mine, for instance, my, my hunt in Arizona, I drew a late tag, used my points because I wanted to go. Late miles over. Yeah. I thought, you know what? I just want to go. So I drew this, I drew this tag that was probably a guaranteed draw for me with the amount of points I had. Well, I went, it was a terrible hunt, but I learned. And I think I even consulted. I was just grateful you didn't come back to me and say, you told me to do this. And it was terrible. And you did, but I went and it was, it was hard. It was a tough hunt. Dry. But a lot of that was because of the year. But looking back now, I would still do it again. And I may put in for that, that hunt or a hunt similar to it in the future. Well, because you can draw it every five, six, seven, eight years.

But I, the amount that I learned was incredible. Like I could go back now and be way more effective, but that's something I could do that hunt twice rather than going, waiting 20 years. Four times. Yeah. Over one early tag. And they kill 350s at times on their 360s. Well, so one of the bulls that was killed on the same hunt that I was there was, sorry, Ritz, they killed one that was like a 390. It was a dang nice bull on the same hunt. Giant. Not nice, giant. Yeah. Giant bull. Well, and I was talking to a guy yesterday and he says, he says, I applied and I went to Colorado on a unit and I saw more people than deer. And I'm like, okay, that sounds like me, Adam, Jeff, Chris. Sounds like Colorado. It just sounds like Colorado. They got over the counter elk tags at the same time during the second and third. That's what you expect, right? And he says, you know, I killed 194 incher. Okay.

On a second season tag. Killed 194 on a second. Yeah. By the end of the call, I said, well, what season did you have? He goes, second. I've hunted that second. It was terrible. Right? But he put himself in the field. He put himself in the field. If you're not going to have a tag and be in the field, how can the Lord bless you and allow you to kill a big buck? Let's be honest. How can it happen? If you're not going to put yourself in the field, you're not going to have the opportunity to pull a trigger on 194 incher like this guy. You know, at the end of the day, he's saying it was a tough, terrible hunt, but I killed a giant and I actually liked it. Yeah. Same thing with you in Colorado. I mean, last year. Terrible hunt. Terrible hunt. 200 plus incher. No, it didn't ever get terrible for you because you killed. I don't know. Within 24 hours, you had a 200 on the trailer. But Bronson.

Bronson. But. You would say, that's a nice one. What else you got for me? No, I wouldn't say that. No, I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't say that. I'm pretty sure. But I remember. On that line one, I was like, come on, let's kill it. And you're like, do you got anything else? Oh, I know. Oh, that deer. Yeah. He was just a deer. He was 30. I don't know what he was. 29 and a half or something like that. But yeah. So yeah. But it was tough. It was a long hunt. Yes. The rest of the hunt was long. But how many times? I don't know. And you would go back. And you would go back. I think my first year to Colorado was like 2004. And it was probably the best hunt I've ever had. And that was largely in part to them going to a draw unit by unit, 98 or 9. I forget exactly when that happened. And things rapidly. They had normal winters. They rapidly got good everywhere. It was unbelievable. It was top heavy.

Gunnesset especially. I was hunting over the counter unit or leftover tags. Yeah. They went to limited entry draws in the west. Yes. Western part of Colorado. They did that. And so. But since then, I don't know how many in 14 years. I probably only missed three or four years. I don't know. Yeah. Due to a couple of them, I had to turn landowner tags back. How many tags did you need? Gave it to a buddy. Gave it to one of the Harrells. They went and shot a 215 on the landowner tags. That was disgusting. That one stung. That one. And those guys. Are hard hunters. They deserved everything that happened to them. Yeah. But I didn't put myself in the field to allow it to happen. Because I was busy. But every time I see that heavy sucker, I'm like. Every time I see their ad in our magazine with that deer. It's very frustrating. Well done, Dave. It's very frustrating. Well done, Dave. That's right.

But having, so I took myself out of the field, mainly just due to schedule. I was too, had too many commitments, had a sheep hunter that just, the hunt went long, long, long. And it was back when. That was a cold sucker in the school. It was back when you could buy landowner tags and resell them. Back in those days, for all of you people, this was 10 years ago or more. I don't know how long ago. It was legal to broker them. That's right. But the put yourself in the field is exactly right. And the diversity thing, having options, and everybody can only do what they can do. And what I mean by that is if right now you've only got $200 to $400 or $200 or one other state beside your own home state to apply in, that's all you can do. But as you can add more options, do that. And have the variety. The states like the Idaho and the New Mexico, we like them. Look at this year.

It's setting itself up to be New Mexico to be off the charts. The moisture's been unbelievable for elk. Last year was terrible. It was terrible. Probably one of the worst in 10 or 15 years, you know, in terms of widespread drought. Or longer. All right? This is one of those years that's not shaping up to be that. It's nice to have years like that put in for it to try to draw a tag. Even an average unit might be awesome off the charts this year. Just like Colorado, being in the field in a one or two or three point unit in the year that you get crushed with snow the end of October, November. I've been on units like that. We all have. Jason, we've all been on units that take zero to one point to draw thirds and been there like, this is unbelievable. If you want to kill a buck with cheaters, the diameter of cigars, you got to be in the field. You know what I'm saying?

We all want the freaking giants. And you can't have giants sitting at home. But there's strategy to it. You don't just go out and waste all your points. Having said that, you know, there's guys in our license app service. We cap our service at $500. You know, once you reach $500 spending with us, we don't charge you any more. And so it's one of those things. There's a lot of our guys at $500. They could add species. No additional fee to us. And minimal to the states. Minimal to the state. Minimal to the state. Load your portfolio. And let's get your points. Give yourself the opportunity to give your kids tags. Have the points to draw. At some point, it's going to mean something to you. And you cannot buy time. You cannot buy time. You can buy points. You cannot buy time. Well, in some states, you can't buy yourself in. You know, Arizona.

You know, there's no way to say, hey, I usually book my hunts and all that. Well, if you want to hunt Arizona, there's no way to do that. Unless you're going to buy a governor tag for $200,000,000, $400,000,000. Yeah. That's it. That's 100%. You don't go buy a landowner tag and hunt Unit 10. You draw a tag and hunt Unit 10. That's right. There's no conservation tags. Of course, Utah's great at that. There's a lot of tags you can buy. And that might be a way you do it. And we have a lot of clients that do that. And that is great because they realize it's going to take them 20 years to draw or whatever. And so we understand that. And we play that game, too. Or landowner tags that are a lot more in the realm of, I guess, just normal blue collar affordability. The $1,000 to $3,000 landowner tags in a certain unit in Colorado. That's doable. Or elk in New Mexico. Or elk in New Mexico.

You can do that. I had a guy the other day call me and he says, you know, I used to look at landowner tags as evil. Like, I felt like they were cheating. They were evil. They were this and they were that. Still in bucks from the public, guys. And what you're... Those tags are going to be divvied out no matter what. The 10% of the Colorado tags are going to be unit-wide landowner type tags. You... Somebody's going to buy them. If you want to hunt, if you want to hunt, you might put that into your portfolio. Once in a while, I buy a landowner tag. I might go buy a landowner tag in New Mexico. These are unit-wide tags. It's like you drew the tag. It's not like you're paying to hunt some private high-fenced ranch. I mean, this is one of those opportunities where you bypass the draw and you go hunt a little more regular. Or find a tag that you like to hunt regular. 52 for elk in New Mexico.

Go once. You learn it. Go twice. Go three times. Fourth year you draw it. Go have fun. Fourth year you draw it. Whatever. And I know that some of this sounds like we're contradicting ourselves. And in some ways, we might be actually contradicting. We're telling... What do you mean? Okay, we're saying, well, we don't think you ought to just be a meat hunter. But, you know... We don't, Jeff. Yeah. But we also go as often as you can. More often shoot stuff. It's about the memories and all that. But I think what we're getting at is... Trophies can come from any unit. I think what we're getting at is there's lots of states in your strategy. Build it in broad. Don't build... Don't be so narrow-minded. Just stuck in, like, you know, so many residents here in Utah. Stuck in Utah. And I'm only thinking about this. And I'm only planning this. It doesn't work like that.

You need to plan broad spectrum. And it's... You're going to have a different plan in Nevada, right? Than you are in Colorado. Okay, Jeff. For me. So, case in point. Some of these guys in Utah want to just kill giant mule. They're... Henry's is the only place I'm going. Okay? The Oak Creek's been freaking smoking giants the last two or three years. Yeah. Giants. Right? The best unit in the state of Utah right now. Yeah. Yeah. How many people are applying from Henry's? Because in their mind, that's the best unit. Huge draw. And they cannot change. They cannot change. You've got to roll with it. The hunting game has changed. Yeah. Units come on. They fluctuate. But you also... You know, to some extent, services like ours can keep you on top of stuff like that. But you've also got to be able to have your brain be able to switch year to year and go with what's going on right now.

I alluded to it in New Mexico a minute ago. Arizona's, you know, parts of Arizona, especially eastern Arizona, the same. The moisture's off the chart. It's off the chart. All right. So, reevaluate every year. Be even more aggressive. You know, if you've got points to draw an archer tag and you're only holding out for unit 10, maybe you look at a unit like 27 and you're like this. It's going to be off the charts. It is. Those burns are going to be unbelievable. And we've talked about this new burn up here, Penguish Lake. We've talked about the burns on Manti and the bulls that have been coming off Manti. Yet, in your mind, Manti's always been on 300, 330, 340, the odd 380, the odd 370 or whatever. Lots of tags. Dude, it's changing. Things change. And we talk about that in our magazine. You'll find that, again, it's monthly. It covers all the western states.

It's December through June when all the application periods are open. And we cover it all. And so, anyway, that is part of the system. And that's how every year, you know, and we'll probably have to get into this in another podcast about how we really analyze our personal year. But every year we are, I will say, we are very good about wiping the slate clean. What do I want to get? And for Jason and I, to some extent this year, we're trying to simplify our lives. I'm probably going to guide, personally, fewer hunters myself so I can hunt more myself for deer or other tags that I hope to draw. That's really a main focus of mine. And I know Jason daily is yelling through my window. So, as I start talking about antelope in New Mexico or something, you're like, what about that consolidation and scope, narrow scope? Well, Adam will come up with some harebrained. It's so hard. It's hard.

We're covering the states. And him and I, like, he's taking a state. I take a state. And we're writing and we're crunching all the statistics. You can get fired up. And then all of a sudden, he all of a sudden out of nowhere goes, this coaster and freaking 31 are amazing. Whatever it is, right? It's just an example. Obviously, that hasn't come and gone yet. So, anyway, but just as an example. And I'm like, Adam, remember. Okay. Remember. Simplification. A, you got a wife. B, you got a wife. Okay. C, you're going to have a few clients. And D, you've talked about this tag. This tag and this tag. We know by studying the odds that are guaranteed. Pretty close. They're guaranteed. And then he'll come up with, nah, I'm thinking about such and such. And I'm like, duh. And he's like, and he will say, there's the tag junkie coming out. And, you know, I'll say the same thing to him.

Those are genetics. Those are his genetics or tag junkie. We used to have a little, well, we wanted to put a little label, but tag junkie. Because, I mean, the art of getting tags is pretty fun. Yeah, it is. A lot of nuances and little intricacies. Gaining points for the dedicated hunter program. All the while, you're applying for everything else, dear. And just little things to prep for. Well. That's a sore spot. That's right. What's that? The gaining points for dedicated hunter. I'm sorry. Oh, I did miss out on that. Because I have a lifetime license. And I can get every tag I want, general every year I want. But the last few years I've been guessing wrong in January, February as to which season I'm going to have the most time to do. And I'll guess rifle or muzzleloader one year. And then I get crushed. My boy draws a muzzleloader. By June.

And writing of 14 magazines, we start to get a pretty heavy schedule. Because we got excited over stuff that didn't matter. So it would be nice to have a dedicated hunter tag. Even though I have a lifetime and can get that every year in Utah, it would be nice to have, well, my muzzleloader hunt. I don't have time, but I've got time in archery this year. I wish I had an archery tag. And to go back to eating tags, a couple of my best bucks came off Utah General. How many tags do you think I've eaten in and around those bucks? Well, in the third instant, 15 to 20 tags I've eaten. Well, if we both added up how many years we could hunt the general in our life, it's about 30. I mean, we're 28 to 30 since we were 15 years old, right? Yeah, about 30. Okay. How many of your 200 inches are there in your collection? Two to three? I'm going from memory. Okay.

And not that it takes a 200-incher to be worthy of pulling a trigger. No, it doesn't. But that's what we're talking about. Even from a trophy hunter's perspective, we're saying you should eat those tags. Have those tags in your pocket so you have the ability when you're out with your boys or whatever and you find a giant that you can hunt it. Yeah, or it's a year you don't draw much. Last year I thought that was going to be it, and then one of my kids drew a tag right during my muzzleloader general hunt, so I couldn't hunt it. And that just happened, and things happened. We've drawn tags in the tag junkie days. Jason and I have drawn reservation tags on the Navajo. We had every map. We gave them more money than we ever showed. We did. We were fired up. I was running truck cameras on springs, and what I realized out there, every spring has 14 hogans or even one with 14 people in it. Dogs.

Dogs. And they are eating everything that comes to the spring. They're eating it. So there's no deer. That's right. Oh, they're killing the deer. We viewed it. We viewed it like we would ourselves on public BLM or national forest land, and we did it. We did different units to just crush a couple different units, and we drew, and we put tags in our pockets. Yeah. But we didn't do much more than that. They didn't taste good either. They said no different than any other paper tag that we've eaten. That's right. And the nice thing is there's electronic tags now coming out in Oregon and New Mexico, and they will taste better. Because they're not paper. All you'll have to do is when you're done with the hunt, swipe right and hit delete, and it disappears forever. It goes away. I think the question that we're all sitting here wondering is, what are you doing for antelope in Colorado, Jason?

Yes, I have that every year, Jason. Every year. Come on. Don't you have 20 plus? Oh, I got a lot. And I think your wife does too, and I keep bringing it up, especially after that last podcast. Jana is ready to hunt, Jason. I heard she's primed and ready to hunt. She's been ready for years. What a better. Again, we have kids. What a. The youngest one can feed, almost drive herself. I mean, you really have no excuse. I know. So I think to tee it up this year, it's January. You should do a husband and wife antelope hunt together in Colorado. Because I know you put her in for points too. Let's do it. All right. I'm not going to do that, but I am going to apply for points only. All right. So anyway, there's so much. There's so much that goes into what we're talking about. We even could go into like once people are scared to draw too many tags and you can turn these tags back.

And some of these tags, if you turn them in before 30 days of when the season starts, you can even get your money back and your points. And so there's a lot that goes into this. It's for another day. Yeah. But just briefly, though, to add to that, we're talking about being scared to fail or not. There's people that turn the same deer tags in 10 years in a row in Utah. Or, you know, because there's no recourse. You turn it in, you get your point back, plus one, you draw it again. We know a guy with what? 25 desert resident points? 26? What is it? 26, I think. A lot. Yeah. A lot. You know, but the deer tags, how many good years have gone by in the last 10 or 12 years? And is it better now than it was over there? No, it wasn't. It's gotten worse. Tell me this. Is it going to get better? No. Does anything get better? You know, we're better at killing stuff. Sometimes you'll have a burn.

You'll have some things happen. But if something gets better, like Colorado deer, a winner will bring it back into reality or something else. With a winter kill. That's what you're talking about. Yeah. A winner happens, it brings it back into check. Or you get, like I alluded earlier, a commission meeting. 10 minutes. You can negate 10 years of benefit. Well, 10 minutes. We've watched it, especially Nevada, Arizona. We would attend those meetings, and you watch it with the stroke of a pen. You get an extra five days of the hunt. Or. And it makes the hunt. Or five days get taken away in the 240s. And it breaks the hunt. The 240s. Some of those strokes of a pen either change things for the better or the worse, and then it's up to you to be on top of those changes and to react. I've got the points. That change is monumental. I'm going to take the risk. Nobody's ever done that before.

Let me go. I'm going to see if I can kill something big. Yes. That's right. Well. Anyway. We need to have a succession of a couple of podcasts during this application season. I think we will. We've hammered. This has been a philosophical type podcast. I want to know next week what your personal application strategy is. Okay. And then I want you to tell us what it is two weeks from that point, because I know there's going to be some changes. Because you're not going to be as excited about some obscure. Well. You're going to be on to the next day and research in the next day. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure I'm going to have you in the Malheur unit in Oregon. I was going to say, we just were getting done with the February magazine we covered. New Mexico, Utah, and Oregon. And I'm very excited about stuff in Utah for a few reasons. Because of forcing the draw. Maybe a sheep.

Maybe a family member on an elk tag. And I'm fired up. I'm fired up for New Mexico. There are changes. Yes. They had a four-year reconvening, so to speak, where they visit everything. Everything's on the table. And you add moisture to it. It's just primed. Change equals giants. It does. It just does. Now, Oregon? Oregon's been a frustrating state. They have the genetics to have giants. They just manage for the masses. General season. Yeah. It would be like our entire state being general season. However, private land, thick trees, whatever. There are a few giants that come out. And then there's a few select units that don't have over-the-counter elk tags or over-the-counter deer tags. And you can see that. You can see it. And they basically tell you, these are over-the-counter for elk. Good luck to you. And there's only five or four that are.

And to paint them in a little bit better picture and show them my appreciation, in 2008, I did get a California big horn tag. Like in 2004, you didn't get one. I know. We both draw on a cowly tag. And, of course, we've said that story a hundred times. But it is a private example. It's worth saying again. To end on a high note with Oregon, and now we're moving on. We love Oregon. Thank you for our Rockies. Well, cowlies, but Rockies. Let's call them Rockies. Well, speaking of sheep tags, let's talk about Full Crow Society real quick. Jump into it. At the Western Hunting Conservation Expo, which is February 14th to the 17th, we will be there. You can jump online at HuntExpo.com. They have 200 additional Utah big game tags that you can apply for. $5 each per entry. You can only apply for each hunt once. Nobody can stack the odds in their favor. Apply once.

You do have to actually attend the Western Hunting Expo to actually validate those entries. You can apply for them online at HuntExpo.com prior to then. But you do have to show a valid photo ID when you get there to show. They want you in the door. This is a means. While you're in the door, come visit us. Yeah. Come visit us. We'll have a booth there. This is a means through the Utah Tourism Bureau, the Utah Life Elevated Initiative, to get people to come to Utah. That's largely what these 200 tags are. Come to Utah. Bring your wallets and all that. In addition to the Expo, on the Saturday, February 16th, Saturday, from about, oh, I think it's about 10 to 1 or something, they have what is called the Full Curl Society Social. We've always been a sponsor of that. We love going to that event. It's just a bunch of people in the room, and they're going to draw 11 sheep hunts there that day.

Some of those you have to be in attendance, the majority of which, probably half of them you probably don't. So you can buy tickets in advance for that. There are some tickets you have to buy for a doll or a stone, and you can't put in for them if you ever killed a doll or a stone. So odds vary by bin based on if you've ever killed or not. I wonder if a light fanon counts. I read the fine print. I believe a fanon will probably count as a stone in this example, and I would not want to be you if your name was drawn on one of those that says you cannot have killed a stone because you're going to get chopped up, made into soup. So, yeah. Anyway, and then we also want to. We'll be there. We'll be there as well as PhoneScope will be there. Good buddy, Cheston, owns PhoneScope. We're super appreciative of him.

Speaking of PhoneScope, we've got to download a bunch of our video, Adam, that we took via Cheston's little device and give it to Chris. We're going to have, of course, a video running in our booth there at the Expo. Some of the fun stuff we got to see and do this year. All of which was captured using his device, the PhoneScope, and with the new phones, it's amazing. The footage is unbelievable. We even use that on the Ridge Reaper TV show that was showcased on the Outdoor Channel. Been using Cheston's PhoneScope for many years. Super good guy. Go to www.Phonescope.com or you can simply apply in our raffle. You apply and buy a $500 ticket package in our raffle and you're going to get a PhoneScope for free as well as the Epic Hunting Knife. Yeah. Outdoor Edge, Epic version. That's right. With a couple extra blades, Outdoor Edge, awesome knife. Phonescope.com.

P-H-O-N-E-S-K-O-P-E.com on that. Are we done? I think so. We're worked up into a frenzy. It's all – I'm sweating. It's the time of year. We're excited. It's January. We're all batting 1,000 right now in the draws unless you applied for Utah Turkey and didn't draw, which I think we both did. Yeah, no. No. Sorry. And my kids, one out of the three, Ashley drew. Awesome. That's awesome. So she's rubbing it in the boys' face. That's awesome. She's fired up. Well, that's perfect. So, yeah, the other boys, yeah. As a big game tags, we're all pretty much out there batting 1,000. So we wish you all luck in the draws. We hope you use the magazines as a tool to help you acquire more and better tags. And the take-home message today is to get after it. Don't be afraid to fail. Don't let your points hold you hostage. Use them while you can. All right. Well, let's get back to work.

Let's send Utah, New Mexico, and Oregon to the printer. Let's get back to work.