EP 195: Hunting Colorado with Mike Duplan

It blows me away how many people are up in the high country of Colorado now. And Bucs rutting their brains out November 1st. There's a level of dedication from a younger crowd that we never saw.

Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, and Mike Duplan from Colorado. Coming at you from Southern Utah. Mike, what are you doing here? I am on my way to Glamis Sand Dunes in California to go have some fun for a week. Oh yeah? Taking your wife, I guess? Yep, yep. We have a Can-Am X3. We bought some sand tires for it. Jeez. And it's the funnest thing I've ever done. Is it? Come on. Funnest. I don't know how you rate fun, but it is... Fun meter? On the fun meter, it is 100% top of my list I've ever done. Have you used it down there before or somewhere in Colorado? Where have you used the sand tires before? Never before. We went down in, let's see, right after Christmas. Yeah. We went down there. Christmas, New Year's. I saw that. Yeah. That's right. Couples that dune together stay together. Yep. Couples that do a lot of stuff together stay together. Don't leave your wife at home.

Don't need the dune. Yeah. Well, hey, if you don't have Big Mueller to chase, we might as well be out there in the sand. That's right. There's not a lot to chase anymore. Yeah. Well, we'll get into that. Midwinter, it's a good thing to do. Go to the desert. Yeah. Yeah. Thaw out, maybe. I understand why old people go south in the winter now. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, we're kind of getting to be those old people. Yeah. But it wasn't yesterday. We were kids. I love the desert in the winter. It's wonderful. Yeah. Well, good. Right on. In the summer, they can have it. Oh, they can have it. Yeah, it gets hot. Well, we run all over the San Juans up above Silverton and Uray Lake. Lake City. Yeah. And that thing. Yeah. It works just fine for that, too. Yeah. So, a little lower slung than a razor. You know, it's got a different seating position.

So, definitely more of a sport performance machine than a lot of them. Well, we'll look for some posts in the coming days. Yeah. Grab an air down there in the dunes. No air. That's a good way to get hurt.

Okay. We are getting older. Those machines are not meant to go airborne. Not very far, anyways. Anyway. Well, what are we going to talk about? With Mike here, what could we possibly have on the topic of conversation today? I don't know. It is time to... Antelope? No. Do you kill antelope? Three of them, I think. In your whole life. I actually have to think of it. Did I get two or three? Your whole life? Yes. I think I've only killed two or three of them. Yeah. I added up the other day. I've killed... If you average my hunting life span from, let's say, what, 15 years old to now, I've killed three. So, about one out of every 15 years, I kill an antelope. Makes you an expert.

Killing good ones. Well, just killing two points. How are you doing, Chris? I'm good. Yeah. All right. It's early morning. Getting cranking. It's one of the earliest podcasts we've ever done. Yeah. We're up and out. It's good. Get Mike on the highway. Yeah. You got some political hubbub. Out here with your, what, baiting and trail cameras? What's going on with that? We do have some of that. That is going on. Caught the... Is that political? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It involves politicians, so... Yeah, it does now. It's political. It involves everybody. We'll get into that, too, when we start talking about Colorado deer. We've got some questions for you. You know, how do you ever... How does Colorado ever kill big deer if they can't bait? Yeah. How do you kill big deer? I mean, geez, it seems impossible. You have late seasons and limited tags, and you kill them then.

And then if you have too many tags, you just kill them all when they're one and a half, and then by five years later, there's none. Okay. Yeah. I see where we're going for the day. That's why we were angry this morning. No. Colorado's an interesting state, and of course, that's what we're basically crunching all the data for right now, so it's just timely that you're here. It's on our mind, yeah. And it's by far the number one fielded question we get all year long by our subscribers. How to use our points. That's part of the reason I stopped by is, you know, I like the in-person podcast better than a telephone thing, for sure. Well, and you're, I know you had some roots in California, but you're from Colorado. I mean, we've talked about that on a previous podcast with you, but once you went there, I mean, you've been there, I don't know, 30 years, I don't know. 1988. Yeah. So, long time.

You're from Colorado, obviously very well-known photographer, deer hunter, sheep hunter, all that, but I mean, you've seen the prior to the draw in the, what, late 90s? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And what that looked like. Which were rough times. Those were rough times. I think it's worse than it, you know, the plains was the only place to go. I think it's worse now than it was then, and it was bad then. Well, that was over-the-counter tags. Yeah. Wow. And I do think it's worse then. Part of the reason is there's less deer now, and also the type of hunter out there. Why is there little- Jason and I have been talking about that. Like, what's changed? There's something- Why- Changed. You know, we got our- It's not technology. It's just, there's a level of dedication from a younger crowd that we never saw until now. And part of it, they're mentored through information as opposed to- Social media.

And things like that. Dads are their grandpas and their uncles. And so, they read the articles, listen to podcasts, see things on YouTube, and it's, there's an information pushed out there, unintentionally. Yeah. And it's an education they get. And then they also have the equipment. The better optics. Sure. The better glass. The better guns. All those things, which we all have as hunters, but we're talking about- We have now, but we didn't have then. No, that's what I mean now. Yeah. I mean, they're putting out, I mean, you got kids and the younger generation, they're not going without. They have the best of the best or whatever. For the most part, yeah. I mean, their mediocre stuff is better than our best- Oh, yeah. Than we ever had 20, 30 years ago. Exactly. The Redfield 10x50s or whatever. So- Yeah. Loophole wind rivers and- Yeah. Redfield scopes. And then- Fixed four loopholes.

I mean, I started hunting Colorado as a kid for elk with a fixed four. Kill the couple. Don't ask me how I shot. I had a straight eight Simmons. Straight eight. I don't know. Well, anyway, so yeah. Try to let- Try to- We used to get our information from magazines, like just a couple of the magazines. Yeah. Try to clean a little bit of stuff out of there. Yeah. And then there was nothing else. I mean, Monster Mealies, that's why it went crazy is you have an online forum, but we didn't have social media, you know what I mean? So now nothing escapes. Everybody sees everything. Everything that's seen, everything that's killed, every shed that's picked up. And so this information's just- Like crazy. Well, and when we went to the- Colorado went to the unit by unit, what, late 90s, around 2000. I believe- 98 to 2000. 99 or 2000 was the first. Yeah.

So by the time about 2003 or 2004 hit, 2004 was my first year of hunting Colorado. But it was because you started to hear, oh, Colorado. Because I grew up near the Colorado border. We went to Colorado to hunt elk. I was 15 miles from Colorado, lived in Monticello, Utah. We went over there because the San Juan was my backyard. They were, you know, that was the famed San Juan elk. You know, I could never draw a tag there. So we went over there and crushed five-point bulls. But we never thought about hunting deer there because I had deer in Utah. And in Colorado, I had elk that I could go hunt. That's how I viewed it. And man, and it seems like that 10-year span, things flipped when you started to hear about a lot of mature bucks. You look at buck-to-doe ratios. I was a biologist to start looking at some of the- Let's take Gunnison, for instance.

It was 50 to 60 bucks per hunter does postseason. Gunnison was dumb. It was like, what? That's like a super excess. And it was, the bar got raised really high right out of the gate for a lot of hunters. And we don't want to forget it. But those days are gone. Well, you can't forget it. You can't forget it. You live through it. We saw what it looked like. And I'm not single in that unit, those units out there. But it was like that. I went to crap units. 43, 34. Well, Gunnison has a very active sportsman's group, too, that kept those tags low. So, you know, when they did go to the draw. And even that, it was only a few real loud voices. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. It wasn't, I guess you'd say, the masses at all. But the pressure, you know, squeaky wheel. Oh, yeah. Got that grease. Well, I remember in 96, I hunted that Pinion Canyon Army base out on the plains. You know?

I mean, I had a ton of that point. Because that was like the only- Every magazine, outdoor live, all the- That's the place to go. That was where you needed to go. Well, it was, A, you didn't have to go, you know, guided on private. It was basically public access. And it was one of the few places it was managed for big deer. Yeah. You know? The score had nothing to do with it. They just had big deer. Yeah. And that was- And they did. They did. They were also doing a coyote study when I was there. And you couldn't kill coyotes. And they were like, I've never seen more coyotes in my whole life. They're still there. Are they? Oh, all over the southeast Colorado. It is unbelievable. I've never seen anything like it. Yeah. I've never seen anything like it. Yeah. So, anyway, but then, and then fast forward, like you said, Adam, I was in Colorado in

04, 05, I was in Gunnison, and then every year thereafter, you know, till now. You know, you see some of the comments people make on social media and whatnot, and there's a really big misperception of what is actually going on in Colorado now as far as what's realistic. And those pictures from 10, 15 years ago are not accurate at all of what's going on. I'm not trying to be, you know, completely negative about this, because there's still big deer there, and there's still going to be, but it's not, a lot of these big deer are accidents, and they're just sheer dumb luck. There's a couple places that are managed for quality that have, you know, higher numbers of mature deer, but by and large- It's moderated everywhere. A lot. I think moderated is a gentle word for what's going on right now. It's crushed. Yeah.

It's way too many tags, and some of your favorite country, and the country I've hunted as well, and some of your backyard-type stuff. I mean, stomping grounds, the tags are just unbelievable high numbers, which just crushed our deer. We watched it. You watched it. I watched it. Yeah, that's a, you know, I know these guys are well-intentioned. I mean, they're not trying to be malicious or trying to take our deer hunting away, but there's something about the idea of killing mature deer to try to save deer, and once you wipe those out, you know, just control the buck numbers enough where they don't spread the CWD. When I talked to a biologist about it, he said the idea is that you have mature deer going from doe group to doe group, just passing it on, and, you know, they're more likely to have interface with other bucks and possibly touch noses or whatever, but that's like trying

to stop COVID in the modern world. It's, you know, it's going to go places, and so the idea of killing them to save them is a bit of a head-scratcher. Well, and as a biologist, I have my opinions about it, and I'm not a CWD expert, and I haven't, I guess I haven't been a biologist since Jason hired me. When was that? I don't know. Like, 0-4, 0-5? I took off the biology hat, but I still like to play the armchair biologist from time to time. So, Mr. Biologist, what do you think? Well, I just... Well, that being said, you do have a master's degree. I know. I'm not, yeah, but I... It's not like you quit being a biologist. Yeah, but I... You just maybe are not, like, part of their most latest, greatest deer conversations. Yeah, and I've had, I guess I've had theories, and I know others, I've talked to other biologists

about this, our ability to detect CWD and all of that is what, in my opinion, has changed in the last 15, 20 years. I don't think it's a new disease. No. That's the way a lot of guys feel. The map is 100% evident of that, of the CWD spread. It's not proliferating the Western U.S. and overtaking us like a pandemic, or it's not. It would be common sense to look at where it is and where they've tested. Where they test, they find it for the most part. Yeah. And to say that it's just new and it's spread rapidly from Northeast Colorado to, let's say, Cortez-Dolores area, it's like, I don't think so, man. There's no way that disease could spread in a herd across that amount of space, topography, herds, winter range, highways, in that amount of time. Or if it was as, quote, bad, and I know for the individual deer that get it, it's not good.

But if it was as bad or as prolific, it would have, you know, be like, look at blue tongue and things like that that hit and just wipe out half of a whitetail population in three months. What was it? And if we don't totally understand it, why not just let it run its course a little bit? You know what I mean? Why crush all the bucks? And they're saying we need to eliminate, you know, the upper age class. We need to eliminate them, basically. I mean, that's what it begs a lot of questions. And, you know, I'm frustrated and I don't understand it. And it's not because I'm stupid. It's because the common sense just doesn't make, doesn't hold water. But, you know, it's, you know, these guys are professionals. I know they are trying. I don't know where the motivation's coming from. So you would think that, like, two units next to each other, they would do it really

hard in one and not in the other and see what kind of results you have in a couple years. Well, and test the prevalence. The prevalency rate never dramatically increases. It's just something always going on in the background. And you got coyotes and you got lions picking off the dumb and stupid ones. I mean, they're going to get killed by either a hunter or predator fast. Very fast. You can't use the argument that you're doing this to protect us from CWD. No, not from humans. There's never been a single documented case of a human getting it from deer. Well, I mean, we're harvesting deer in, quote, CWD units and we're just eating them. I don't worry about it. I don't sweat it. Just eat them. You know what I mean? They taste great. Well, except for we were eating a stag. We have a jerky stag in the office and it's terrible. Don't bring that up.

Every time I'm like, hey, bros, do you want some stag? And he's like, oh. I'd rather him say the word steer. Just mentally that has a different connotation. Stag is a steer. And we finally ate the last thing yesterday. We eat steers. A lot of what we eat at the restaurant is a steer, probably grass-fed or corn-fed steer. It's different. When you call it a stag, somehow you start getting the heaves. This thing grew up in the desert and it's the nastiest. It's got to be 12 or... The taxidermist was like, this is literally the oldest deer I've ever had come in the shop. And it tastes like it. It tastes like freaking the grossest, gnarliest feed. You know what? I think it's all gone. I think it's gone. We finished it yesterday. It was so gross. I think there's one thing we could take away from this right now in regards to what you're doing

and your listeners is you really have to temper your expectations on Colorado. And there is no direct correlation between preference points used and quality of buck. And what you're going to get out of it. Yes. Well, I just got... I wrote my little article. And my title was Burnham. Yeah. And it's talking about Colorado deer points. For the reasons you mentioned, everything... I'll use the word moderated. Quality is moderated. And I talk about the past and where the expectations have come from because of the past. 10 to 15 years ago. And through increasing tags, a couple hard winters, and I addressed a different style of motivated... I'm going to call it trophy hunter for mule deer. That's really had Colorado crosshairs the last 15 years. It's a different... Like we talked about. It's a different type of mule deer hunter than the plaid shirt guy going over there.

Buying a deer tag is the add-on, but they're really hunting for an elk. Here's what they are. They're trophy hunters that have a sliding scale depending on what day of the season is. They're really intent on killing a big buck at first. They've got the fish eye lens. That helps, too. And you... Most of these guys don't want to go home and they're willing to shoot a two... They won't. One and a half, two and a half year old buck. They won't go home without one. Yeah. You know, if we want big deer, you've got to kind of move past that a little bit. I don't blame them. I mean, it's their tag and they want to do that. That's an individual person's... It is. No, that's... It is. It's hard to impose my values on somebody else because that's... Well, and I don't want liberals doing it to me. But I mean, you're passing them all week and then at the last day, you've got to take something home.

It's not like they necessarily needed the meat. You know what I mean? Yeah. But I think we're all... Everybody's... A lot of people are doing it to a degree. I think, too, is we're pretty hard on Colorado just because we've seen what it could be. We know what it could be. And yet, Bronson, you killed a great buck last year. And by all intents and purposes, most people's standards would be an absolute trophy. And so we're looking at it from a very... And you killed a super buck the year before. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so we're looking at it from a mindset of a very discriminating trophy hunter. You can be a trophy hunter and kill 180s. And we don't want to go without, but we don't want to go without Colorado. Whether you get a draw tag, which I did burn points last year, or a turn back leftover, landowner, second choice, whatever. There's means.

We try to fight and claw our way to Colorado every year for the simple reason of habitat and genetics are second to none. It's a deer factory. You can't argue that. It's proven. The record books, whether you're a BNC watcher or whether you're just a watch with your eyes, what Colorado can produce, it's hands down the factory. It has been. There's factors that we're talking about that are bridling that potential. And that's what we're trying to, I guess, convey to people that are packing a lot of deer points. We talk to them every day. Every day we get off the phone, Mike, with some of the 22 to 25 points. What do I do with them? And they're starting to realize they're not worth what I hope they would be worth. You know, 25 points was worth something maybe 10 years ago. But you can pick anything you want. 25 points is 200 inches. It's not. No. Yeah. Well, it's just like what you said.

I mean, okay. So we were, before we started the podcast, I was showing you a few of the photos that came in. And, you know, and there's a buck out of 44 that's 195 inch or cheats its way there with cheaters. Right? Gross 195er that you wouldn't have shot years ago out of a unit like 44. Third season. Yeah. With late date. Yeah. With great date. With private land access. Not just private, like the best private. And so, and you know that. Yeah. It's your backyard. Yeah. I mean, you know, you've stopped around there for years and years. And so, anyway, and basically, that's a 25, 24 point type area. You know what I mean? Yeah. So like you said. That guy, he basically, I'm sure he got a voucher, right? Yeah. Yeah. But he's also on the best private that you got. A normal guy can't hunt. Right. So if you're just out there on the public and trying to, anyway, there's potential.

But it's like you said, it doesn't just gift you a giant buck. No. So you might go this year and have the weather be okay and in a four point unit, four bonus point unit, not four point deer, but four bonus point unit, stumble onto like some of the deer, maybe the deer that we're potentially putting on the cover. You know, 210 or 20 inch deer can happen from about anywhere in Colorado with no level of regularity right now. Well, there was like a three point unit for all intents and purposes. Yes, it was. That's what I'm saying. And that guy, anybody would burn 25 points to kill that deer. But that's a gov tag buck nowadays. What you're seeing sometimes now, like two years ago, we had epic conditions and the snow was great. The migration was on and I didn't see a buck in a place I've seen monsters in before that was over two and a half years old.

And five days of being right in the middle of the crush of deer moving through the spot. And it was like, it was very, very telling. Yeah. But I think a year or two before that been the same conditions and there's a lot of tags and the conditions were perfect and they got freaking smoked. Crushed them. Yeah. And Gunnison last year, some reports and some of those units, the same thing the year before they killed some great deer last year. You could argue say the snow and condition was better last year than it was the year before. And it was terrible reports. Same units. Well, and you saw it with your own eyes. You were there. Yeah. You know, with your not, not for your own tag, but for your sons or whatever. And I mean, yeah. One of the best unit in the, in, in, in one of them. Yeah. And, and, and it didn't matter there. And then, like you said, we talked about 44.

You can talk about, I mean, all the famous ones. Right. And they all maybe have a deer or two, but collectively couldn't say that anything's there's, there's nothing. I would, I would be as bold to say there's nothing worth the 20 plus points. There's nothing maybe worth the 16, 18 plus points. 44 is tough because it's a, it's not doing great. They've got a monstrous elk herd on deer winter range on the Southeast side of town. And most of these elk are up on private land refuge during hunting season. They're not getting any pressure. There's an exponential increase in the size of this herd every year. And they're just crushing the winter range in this area. And really. Which is already. They physically displace. Because of. I mean, this is a big herd. They physically displace mule deer. And they're also. And that's pretty critical. Because that's a high elevation winter range. Yeah.

High elevation winter range with the encroachment with, you know, subdivisions, golf courses already chewing winter range. And then elk on top of the range right on top of that. And then you have. Mule deer don't, they don't know to go seek out other winter range. They, you know, these are deer. This is where they go. This is where they go. Where their doe brought them when they're farms. They know to go there. And if it changes, they. And if they starve any spot two miles away, there might be something good to eat. Yeah. That's how deer work. Elk. Elk, on the other hand, you can go. They'll go to the. They'll cross the freeway and find something 10 miles away. They can live. They'll live on the moon. They can live. And a foot or two foot is not pretty easy. Three foot. I mean, they can. They're hardy. Yeah. So, you know, Boone and Crockett's got that trophy search.

And, you know, if you're really into it and you want to see what's going on, you can look at the Boone and Crockett entries from Colorado the last few years. Yeah. And I don't have anything in front of me to list it. But, you know, what you see basically is an anomalous entries and without any set patterns. Sprinkled throughout. Yep. Exactly. It's not Garfield and Eagle just totally dominated. I'm not going to name them just because, you know. Why? It was. Yeah. It really doesn't matter. You know, Mesa County historically was the place for big, non-typical mule deer. It's like, well, that's not the case anymore. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. And I like actually a little plug for that Boone and Crockett's trophy search. I like it. Yeah. I always get on there. It's interesting. It really is. Yeah. They've really done a good job. And they revamped the website a little bit.

It's a little more searchable on exact queries. Yeah. If you're in it, it's probably working on it. By date, by county, whatever. It's nice to do that. Your criteria, you can go by state, by county, by hunter, by hunter, in-state, you know. Owner. All that. Yeah. Yeah. And there's pictures. They've done a lot better job putting pictures. They could do more, though. They could. Because everybody submits a photo. Just even submit the side shots against the wall. Submit them all. And I would say it's a better representation than historically. Because I think there's more trophy-conscious guys entering big deer now just because they're so rare. Well, you feel like you won the Super Bowl if you kill something. Yeah. Like 190 plus net or 230, of course, plus net non-typical. It's like so rare. It's like you feel like you, I'm not saying force, but it's like such a rare accomplishment.

And it's rare even any time. But it just feels like a next level. How about that four-point we were looking at when a guy submitted? And he's just bananas, just freaking fat tines. And he just chopped the head off. Just chopped that off. Yeah, well, he's a book typical at 100%. And it's a 500-inch. Maybe 200-inch. A $500 elk or mule deer cave rack. Yeah. And I'm like, ah. And a governor buck rack for a four-point. He's legit. Yeah, I mean, it's an impressive deer. That big 300-incher that came out of Mesa County a few years back. So my buddy Barrett had found that deer like three years before the guy killed it. And when he first found it, it was like 210. And it was like about a 230 buck. And then he didn't have a tag. And he didn't really think it was one of those bucks that was going to be, you know. Blow up like that. Yeah. And we actually went, the year before the guy killed it,

we went in there to go hunting where he'd seen it. And it was a drought year. And the place had been just absolutely hammered by cattle. Jeez. I mean, just like freaking a lawn. Mm-hmm. And there was, we saw a couple deer in there. But it's the same place where he'd seen them two times before. And, you know, we spent a day in there and didn't see much as far as deer. And just kind of gave up on it. Tell it a day. And that dude killed it the next year. And Barrett didn't know. I actually saw the picture. And I'd never even seen the deer. You knew it was that day. But he described it. I looked, I saw this deer. I'm like, holy crap. I mean, he described it to a T. And I sent him the picture. He's like, that's him. There's no doubt in my mind. When's that going to happen again? But, yeah. I don't know. That was really crazy.

So that buck had to have wintered in a spot that was pretty protected. Because a lot of oil and gas around there. And, you know, a guy sees a deer like that and the word's going to get out. Well, in a very heavily hunted cluster of units. I mean, just hundreds and tags or thousands. I think that's what keeps us going back to Colorado, though. There's so much topography, land, country, draws, mountains, trees. And genetics. I mean, there's places that that deer is not going to happen. In certain places in Montana. No, but that deer did happen on a nothing point unit. It did. You know what I mean? Zero one or whatever. Unit that's just been hammered for years. Years. Yeah. That's what keeps us going back. That's what I think the interesting. It's a love-hate situation. We hate the way it's headed. We hate the way it's gone. We haven't even brought up wolves.

So if he wintered in a spot where people saw him, he would have never got that. No, yeah. Governor Tagu. Governor Tagu. Right. But there's deer that do weird things that have weird habits. Right. I follow deer in Nevada. I mean, even in the velvet, they'll overnight go 10 miles to another water. And you don't know why. You know what I mean? I mean, everything on trail camera. You can glass everything on trail camera except for one deer. And he's nowhere to be found. Crosses a valley to the next mountain range. You pick him up on camera 10 miles away. You're like, why did you do that? And then that deer did it multiple times, two or three times a week, would do that. And you couldn't keep up with him. And you're just like, well, he's in the velvet. But they're supposed to have patterns. I was always taught they have patterns. But some deer do things. Some people say patterns kill deer.

Yeah. Patterns are supposed to kill deer. But when they have a weird pattern. Yeah. And this was an early season deer. But that deer's a freak. He's just mentally deranged. But even later, if you spend enough time looking, both of you guys know the philopatric nature of animals. Where they do certain things certain times of the year. They go to certain places. Boom, boom. Elker. Just suckers for that. You've got to find that weird place that that deer happen to have a little refuge. With our season structure, if you've got a five or seven day season, you better know what you're doing as far as that. You're completely relying on luck now. Yeah. And so the only way you can really kill big deer, in my opinion, in Colorado is either A, get lucky. Or B, stay with a place that you can go time and time again and keep it going and learn it. And hope.

Anticipate or have an educated guess or, you know, when does something move. And if it snows 18 inches or higher in the high country, I know this little draw over here is going to have deer moving into it finally or whatever. You know places where they're migrating through. Like you can just sit there and just hunt. Might be two-year-olds, but there's places in 43 like that. Guys will perch up on one hill and just watch. You know what I mean? Yeah. Or if you do have a pile of points, one thing I've suggested a couple times in articles I've written is get a cow tag and go hunting there the year before and get a feel for it. Learn it a little bit and see if you think that's what you want to do. Most people want to invest that kind of time. But, man, you talk about money and time well spent. Well, speaking about scouting, I have a little – and I've threatened to do this.

My points are at zero. This is hilarious. You're going to owe me 500 bucks. It's going to be the easiest 500 bucks I ever make.

So, Carter, I have zero points, right? I am not in any kind of a driver's seat. I am a beggar this year when it comes to what could I do in Colorado. Begging for your 500 back. No. Begging for attack. And I've even threatened, and I haven't done this before, mainly because – threatening to do an archery or muzzleloader this year. Mainly because they're easier to draw, and I might draw something with zero. But also, normally, I'm tied up in Utah hunting archery or something closer to here where I can scout and have an active part in trying to find a deer or two to hunt. What we were talking about. Which Colorado, we normally show up and hunt a second or third season. And get lucky. We rely on lock and call. We do. Because we don't live there. Yep. So, but if – talk about that, Mike. For people, that's – all right. This is the year the dates have never been later.

How stupid would it be to go do archery and muzzle? But yet, I'm thinking of doing that just for something different, for all the reasons we've talked about. Nothing is a no-brainer right now. Not only are you thinking about doing it, tell them about our bet. So, it's on record. Jason said bull crap. You'll never do it. I'll bet you 500. Well, we've always threatened it. We've always threatened it. He says, I'll pay you $500 if you actually go through and do it. I think it's the best way to kill a big deer. It is. No doubt. And there's even non-residents going and doing it. Dude, there's a guy in Arizona that smoked two great bucks on muzzle attacks. I just – We don't – Easy muzzle attacks. We view Utah or Nevada or these closer states or maybe even Wyoming, G&H is like, I'll go pre-scout and find my deer there and hunt it. But that's – we know that's how we usually kill our best deer.

And we know it works. We have conviction that it works. Anytime I've ever killed a good one in Colorado, it's been because he's dumb and I'm lucky. I appreciate the honesty. Yeah, it's true. That's true. Same here. You're doing the right things at the right time. That's how I've killed big deer. It's not like – I've had a couple that I've had a little bit of an idea on, but most of the time I'm using solid tactics the right time of year. Get some wet weather. And it is your stomping grounds and you know like even in the rut. I've invested time. In the rut, you know. Like right now, you would need no pre-scouting. You could go there in probably two dozen units and be in the right places. The best position you could be if the condition's in the right deer. In any of those 24 units because you have the knowledge and background from the 80s, 90s, 2000s. So this is my – We just get lucky.

Here I'm throwing out a – he thinks it's an idle threat, but to go early, scout, take some of my summer, go over there, find deer, hunt deer with a bow or muzzle in the year that we're all supposed to be there third and fourth season. He's not going to do it. He's got $500 if he does it. He says I have until May 1st to take the deal. He doesn't even have to take the deal today. Yeah. So Colorado's different now with some of the early stuff. I'm just saying this from an informational standpoint. There's more bow hunters than there has ever been. It's – all the cool kids are shooting bows now, which is fun. But how do you – There's been some tactics in Utah that have created – The only thing – Archery hunters that aren't really archery hunters. Most of them are dudes taking their bows for a hike. But there's a lot of people out there kicking around and screwing everything up.

And you've got concurrent archery deer and elk seasons. I mean – Yeah, it's not just deer hunting. You've got muzzleloader season in the middle. And I mean, there's just – Yeah, and then now that we've bumped the archery season forward a little bit. You've got a week. You're at September 2nd or something. You've only got a week until they rub velvet. When they rub velvet, all bets are off, man. That's hard. You used to have a week in August before the elk hunters really wanted to be there at all. 10 to 14 days before that. Now, opening day – Now you're the second to the 30th. Now you have a legitimate, what, second of September that people say, yeah, I want to be their opening day deer and elk at the same time. Where you had about a week before that deer hunters kind of had more maybe –

Most mature deer I've seen in Colorado rubbing their velvet anywhere from like the 7th to the 11th, somewhere in that. Yeah, which that's the opening day of the muzzleloader hunt. Yeah, and so there's – You're scaring me. There is that. And they do change. So, all bets are off. Go back to this. All bets are off. When do they change – When have you seen the – I don't know if it's a chemical change – Whatever the change is, it's just like what we see. We see it out here a bit too. More so probably a week or a week and a half after they shed the velvet. You know, it feels like they're wandering. Not anymore because there's so much pressure from archery deer and elk hunters. And, you know, the high country is a different deal too because what we have with such a big population in Colorado and all the recreation is coming from everywhere, all over the country. Colorado is a summer destination.

Hiking the 14ers, right? Oh, yeah. And every basin that has a lake, if you have a lake in that drainage, don't even bother because, you know, all the backpackers have been in there all summer long. You have to look for hidden pockets of deer habitat in the alpine. They adjusted some boundaries for, like, the sheep and goat just to avoid some parking lots and whatnot for this year. I mean, they addressed it. You can't hunt within 300 yards of this parking lot. Well, it doesn't say a parking lot, but the parking lot's there within the boundary. That's what the sheep opener usually starts the Tuesday after Labor Day for the reason that of anticipated conflicts on Labor Day weekend. Getting rid of those people. And this is a, what, 25, 30-year-old rule that this – anymore. It's – Yeah. It blows me away how many people are up in the high country of Colorado now. Oh.

I'm not talking just, you know, motorized recreation. I'm talking about people on foot. And with their pack dogs and everything else. Yeah. Taking selfies. Self-easing. So you're self-easing. So you're self-easing. So you're self-easing. You know, the influencers posing on rocks. Hey, I've seen your poses on rocks. Those wanting to do yoga at 13 to 5, right? Yeah, yeah. It's incredible, man. You know, sometimes we go up, my wife and I are hiking, and I'm like, there's a dude up there. What is he doing?

He's not looking at deer. Some freaking 140-pound skinny bearded dude is just freaking motoring. He's got a stylus, and he's drawing a couple flowers in his little sketchbook. That's right. I was scouting for sheep in the San Juans a few years back, and, you know, God, we were way up high. And, you know, I'm struggling. It was like low O's, and it was high elevation, steep stuff. And we're going up this ridge without a trail. It's an unnamed peak, basically. And my buddy and I are just looking for sheep, and I'm just standing there on this ridge, and I look below. I'm like, hey, man, there's a guy walking up here. And I'm like, oh, yeah, he's down there. He's probably 500 yards away. And he walked without stopping up this ridge. Just crushed you guys. Just. It was like I would have never been there. Not even breathing. Even when I was freaking 18 years old, I couldn't have done that.

This guy, I mean, he's not even breathing hard when he walks past us. Did he even have a pack? Like he's just got a granola bar in his back pocket, and he's walking for 10 miles. Granola bar, celery, and a bag of carrots. I was just blown away. He didn't break stride, man. Hey, how you guys doing? Nothing. I'm just going for a walk. And it was like, you're going for a big old monster hike is what you're doing. Yeah, wow. You know, you read about some of these adventure guys that are climbing multiple 14ers and like trying to set the record, how they can do them all. I can't figure out how these guys make. You mean a short period of like a couple days. There's guys that are climbing like three, four 14ers in a day down in the San Juans. Wow. And, you know, setting these records. Courses. Yeah. To do. What do these guys do for a living? Yeah. I mean, this is what they're doing for a living.

How do they live? Well, yeah. It's just wonders. I don't know. Blogs and Pinterest posts. There you go. Yeah. Following. Big social media following. At any rate. So. High country. You have that consideration, I guess, of what we're saying. It's not all you and a deer in an empty basin, and you get to do that. So you're painting a picture, but there's a lot of options. So I guess in general terms, though, do you feel that archery and muzzleloader in this day and age, with everybody trained to look at November, is it an underutilized opportunity? Absolutely, because you can scout, and you can find animals and put the effort and time into it. But it takes effort and time. Yeah. With the later rifle seasons, you're talking. Show up and hunt. Use solid tactics and hope for good luck. Yeah. That's what we've been doing. That's what we've done. You can't scout the rut. No.

I mean, my biggest deer, I found him opening day. This is the typical. What season? 36 inch. What season? 38 inch. Third? Yeah, 38 and a half. Jeez. Second or third? It was second season. Yeah. I found him opening day. There was three or four snowstorms that second season. Just. And, but I knew, based on what deer do, he's not going to be moving a whole lot right now. That's his home. He's going to hunker down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he, he, he doesn't need to go anywhere. He's wary. He's in a, he's in country. He could have summered there. Right. Exactly. It's a non-migratory deer. He was. Yeah. Very interesting. I didn't catch him on a ridge, you know, coming through heavy snow early second season. Yeah. Like if I went 20 miles up the valley. Yeah. And I saw him in a spot. But that, that, that country, you could have possibly muzzled around. Right. I don't know. Possibly. Yeah. Yeah.

So he might've got bumped in there from early season elk hunters or. Whatever. Or whatever. But I knew when I saw him, he would be there. So I kept putting my time in that whole week and, and finally killed him. But, uh, I had no idea what I, I just knew he was a good deer. I don't think a lot of people, I don't know. Maybe you want to just tell a quick, the quick story on him. I mean, you obviously did, but if there's maybe more to it, cause that deer, you were quiet about that deer. And part of it is because you could hunt there year after year after year. You know what I mean? I was starting to realize that me writing articles and opening my mouth was impacting me directly. Yeah. Or doing podcasts. Yeah. It doesn't matter anymore. He's been 15 years old. Things are different now. So. I feel bad. I've taught people things and Bronson, you have too. And, and, and it's good.

It's fun to watch people succeed and, and it, but at the same time, you know, knowledge is killing deer. I remember when I wrote a second choice ain't bad article about my 2004 hunt when me and my buddy Barrett, we, he killed a 210 buck. I killed him in the mid one nineties and it was on second choice tags. That's when I killed my second choice tag. 2004. 2004. That year it just crushed snow. Remember how much snow we got? I mean, Utah general, we had the three feet up here on these. We hunted the general. It was good. And I, we took off to Colorado and I, that's when I got there. I'm like, if this is what I've been missing, I can tell you how many people. Well, that was a, that was your first 200 inch or in 43. Yeah. The maroon bales had five feet. I don't know. There was two, 18 inches down on winter range when we got there and bucks rutting their brains out November 1st.

Lucky and in the right place. Yeah. And the right genetics. Yeah. And just the timing. It had been priming for four or five years. Yeah. My deer I killed, I knew it was in that transition area where they're going to be migrating through. And I just was in there. And when I killed that one, I was sitting on a log eating a snack and I saw him come out of the lodge poles and gee. That's the deer we were just talking about. The one you'd seen days before. No, this is a def. Oh, the 2004, not one 90s. Right. Oh, my big one. I killed an old six. We're losing track of the deer. Okay. So that one, you were just like your world. But I mean, yeah, so you killed him. One story runs to the next. Keep going. So, yeah, I'm just sitting there on a log and seeing this thing come out about 100 yards away and he's just on the move. He's fresh snow that night and got like 14 inches of snow. Straight line.

So he's just motoring. Well, he saw me move. Okay. I grabbed my gun. He was leaning over against a tree, not next to me. So I jumped up, grabbed my gun. He just bolted. I'm like, I'm going to track him. I told my buddy. So I took off on his track. Which is a lost art. Well, I mean, not necessarily in the snow. It was a foot of snow. I know. But people don't track. Right. Anyway, I would say if you see a big buck and you bump him and you can track him, track him. Track him. Okay. All right. It works. Common sense. Yeah, it does work. So I tracked him for a couple hours, lost his track in a big herd of elk and it was just all chewed up on the hillside. I'm like, well, screw it. I can't find this thing now. So I dropped across the canyon, ended up glassing him up later in the day and shooting him across. Back in the aspen, standing aspen or timber? Yeah. In the same.

I'm, that's the thing about deer in the aspens and snow. They think they're invisible. Oh, they've lived there all year long and the leaves protect them and they come off and it snows. Yeah. I can't believe the deer that live in the aspen. There'll be two feet of snow and there's aspen. What are they eating? Like there's nothing really. No, it's just, it's their security. There's actually a fair amount of brush. I know, but it just, but when you look at it, you're like, there's deer, white snow and white trees. I've killed several deer that same way. They think, and they think they, they are. When the leaves are on, you could never see that deer. Snow, flock. Or if there's no snow on the ground, you can't see them either. Oh, yeah. It's tough. Oh, no. Yeah. Now it flocks it and you're just, it's like ants in a sugar bowl over there and walking through the, you know, and they're toast.

So do you ever think like, when are you, are you ever going to have another chance at a 38 inch four point or a deer of that caliber? Not, not that caliber. That's unreasonable. I mean, that's, that's, that's a, that's a top 20 Colorado all time deer. But I think of that like, when, how can you get your hands on another one? It's not like that's good enough. And now I'm just a sheep hunter, which you do hunt a lot of sheep. It will take us 10 years to turn around our deer hunting right now. I think at this point, because our age class has really been decimated by too much hunting pressure. You can say what you want about all the other factors, predation, elk, everything. That is the only thing we can control as humans is the number of people you say, people you say. And I think the timing you're killing them too. And I don't know if you'll ever change that.

Just like Bronson and I are talking about our elk hunts in the rut. Utah. You could never change that. The politics involved and the people involved and the gnashing of teeth. We're talking Utah now. The Utah archery, rifle, and then muzzleloader every day in September crushing them on our limited entry unit. You couldn't change that and go to like a New Mexico system or something like that. One thing you guys do have is you can throw piles of apples on the ground. Well, you could. And maybe that's going to change. In fact, it appears that may change. I mean, the House has voted against. Yeah, just in the Senate now and maybe in the next several days. But who knows? By the time Chris goes. But we have our challenges. Maybe baiting, whatever. You've had your challenges. You guys are hunting the rut. You're not supposed to hunt deer in the rut. That's not proper management.

No, it's really not. I mean, pre-rut, rut, post-rut. You know. More power to you. I want one of those tags too because I know how good it can be. But that's how you guys. Should we be doing it? No. Could you ever change it? Should we be putting out, you know, a wheelbarrow full of apples and shooting deer over it? Probably not. I mean, there's things we have to do as hunters to conserve a limited resource. Right. We have everything at our disposal that we talked about a bit ago. We've added how many advancements in the hunting world, whether it be archery, muzzleloader, information, rifle, optics, information, gear. On your phone with Onyx. It's huge. Just your gear and the boots. Onyx will have winter range locations. We don't. Winter range is for Colorado. You go there. I mean, that's probably a good place. You're not hunting in flannel and jeans anymore.

I mean, you could stay out in the nastiest weather. You got to. And we've got jet boils and we've got, you know, warm meals. Late season, I bring my jet boils. I mean, coffee and whatever. Here's a question for you. How many hunters are now still packing around a compass?

I don't know. We talk about this all. I never have because I just never felt I needed one. Okay. But my dad taught me that way. I always thought you were supposed to have a compass. Every hunter that has an iPhone in his pocket has a compass. That's right. I know. That's what I mean. I know. And it's like sharpening knives. And it's like dead and things like, I mean, I don't know. You lose them. You have a tracking device in your pocket, too. And you have. I know. That's how things have changed. If you send texts and you're doing something illegal, you're going to get in trouble. That's how things have changed. And I think like here in Utah, for example, we're trying to change. The only thing we've done is loosen up regulations. We give multiple power scopes now. Muzzle loaders and all that. I mean, it's gone the other way.

So now when there's any attempt, whether it be this baiting attempt or whatever. To keep up with technology or tactics. Certain hunters just maybe don't realize, we've been given everything and given more and more rain. At the same time, you can't complain about the quality of your deer if you have everything at your disposal. Everything imaginable to kill them, you can't then complain. You have no reason to complain. I think our fish and game departments across the West have not kept up with technologies as far as how they manage and allocate tags. Relative tag numbers. The type of hunter out there. Or relative to like your season dates. You know what I mean? Season dates, generally speaking. They should trim tags for third and fourth season this year dramatically. You're not going to be able to change season dates because of the politics involved and the gnashing of teeth.

So the only thing you've got is tag numbers. But I'll bet you they're not going to. No. It's not going to happen. And that's when a lot of your income is derived from license sales. You know, how can you truly be objective? You're talking about, you know. You'd be surprised what the general public looks at a quality hunt. Your definition of a quality hunt and their definition are two different definitions. I don't have to kill something big, but I want to know something big is out there. Yeah. But something big, let's define big. And that's our point. We can't get anything through because the new age hunter. Big isn't a score. It's an age class to me anymore. Yeah. You know, I don't think you can beat that through the head of the general public. The general public says, I saw 15, 24, 28, 26-inch four points. So there's... And your points, yeah, but you should have seen what was here.

Yeah, but this is awesome. I've never seen anything like it. After the 07-08 winter, which if anybody's not familiar with it, we are, but anybody listening, it was the worst winter, I think, in modern history. 50 years. Maybe 80. Maybe 80. 82, 83 might have been as bad. But Gunnison Basin looked like the Arctic Circle. It was literally every bit of sagebrush was covered with snow. It was stark white. Couldn't see anything. The only place I remember seeing vegetation was on a couple of those real steep south-facing hillsides right above Blue Mason Reservoir where there's some oak brush sticking up. Everything else was white. Deer were starving. That was probably because of the winter. And it was just brutal. So there was a phrase that was kind of bantered around by a state, Fishing, Colorado Parks and Wildlife, Division of Wildlife. You can't stockpile big deer.

I remember hearing that quite a few times. And so I appreciate the sentiment, but what you're talking about is... An outlier. Yeah, if you don't want age class representation, to me, it's a mistake from a management standpoint because I think there's great value having mature bucks in the herd. Just simply the way deer operate in the rut. And you've got the new age biologists that didn't see it when what real carrying capacity looks like. And so you've got new carrying capacities compared to Bronson, what they were years and years and years ago. Well, and so consequently that sentiment was when these deer rebound a little bit, we're never going to get it to make it, allow it to look like it used to. We're going to have tag numbers or we're going to be, we're going to rapidly get them back up again. Which is moderation. That's the word I used. I know, but I mean...

So you're moderating that management plan to not be so heavy on that. But why manage for that one in 50 or 40 year winter? Like that's my... I mean, yeah, you react to those. You don't manage for... If that happens, we can't waste deer. It's like Texas. Do you change the infrastructure of Texas's power grid on this storm that happened? Yeah, one in a 50 year, 100 year storm. Right, exactly. No, people... It'll give people some awareness maybe for the future, but... It's too costly to overhaul the whole state for that for one of a 50 or 100 year storm. I mean, it's just not practical. Yeah. Hard... Change is hard on people, man. Yeah. We're finding that it's hard to change anything. And, you know, tactics change and we're getting better and seasons change and technology changes. And yet regulations don't change and people say, let's save hunting. Let's save hunting. No, let's save a deer.

Yeah. Let's save a deer. This isn't about saving hunting. We had more deer tags last year than I think we've had in maybe 20, 25 years. And... What are your rough numbers? Yeah. I don't have that. I don't have that. In 2019, it said, you know, I believe there was close to 100,000... Deer tags. Deer tags. And... Yeah. So, right after 07, 08, I believe we were down into the high 30s, low 40s. Yeah. Something like that. And probably in the, you know, 50 range, something like that before the bad winter. What else? More is there to say. I mean, that's what we're talking about. That's the moderation that's occurred. As you turn that many more people... We have so much more CWD now. Don't look at the pictures in the magazine or social media. I mean... I guess that's our point. Realistically, you have to temper your expectations in Colorado with your points. Yeah, you do.

It's the reality of it now. Yeah, it is. Go hunting and if you want something special, you better invest your time and think outside the box. Burn them. Burn them on archery and muzzle, Brunson.

I'll have a point to burn. So, what's my phrase? Hey, muzzle and archery are pretty easy to drop. I know, but I've got a few ideas. I'm not burning points when I have 0. You're betting money against grit and desire. I don't know.

Five Benjis.

And the fact that you've been taunting him. He's taunting me. I've been taunting until May 1. Okay. Almost to the... Here's the thing. One shoulder, I'm like, I just want to do it to prove him that I'll do it. But the other hand, I'm like... If I help you, you give me half? Yeah. Let's talk. He just said he had a side-by-side part of the high country in the San Mons all summer. The dates have never been later. They're really good dates for guys that like to get lucky. Yeah. We like to get lucky because we don't live there. I just don't see him doing it. I'd be happy. Happy to pay him the five Benjis. I'll make it 750. Those season dates are ridiculous. Whoa! 750. So, Chris... 750. But if you don't go... It's on record. You owe me 750. That was the other... That's the deal. If I... If I... No. What was the deal? That was the deal. There was 500 for you if I what?

Did I have to even kill a deer? I just have to go do it and burn my ear in Colorado. I bet you're not going to do it. You think you're going to do it. If you don't do it, you owe me five. That's right. If you do do it... So, all he has to do is get the tag? He doesn't have to kill any? No, he has to go. Well, okay. I have to go. Okay. I will go. I'm not going to just get a tag. How about this? Just get a tag. And if you don't go hunting, period, in Colorado, then that's fine. That works. I just... I don't think you're going to hold out. I will go. Because, I mean, that's a wasting a year in Colorado. So, whether I go over there with the... The late dates are wrong for deer management. I'm disgusted. But having... And this is... Everybody thinks this is the last of even the moderated years. Well, and we're talking about... It's going to decimate everything. Late dates.

You've got wolves on the horizon. I mean, you've just got things, unknowns. This is the year to burn them. How is it to say in five or ten years... I don't have the optimism to say it's going to be better in five or ten years. Go to Colorado Parks and Wildlife and go to the Wildlife Commission and look at the faces and the makeup of our Wildlife Commission. See where they're from and you'll see where management in Colorado is going. You guys are very similar to New Mexico right now. They're run by the other political party. Yeah. And it's just really hard to see positive things in the future. It almost seems... Maybe I'm being unfair. And if I am, I apologize to anybody. I might have offended. But I think wildlife policy is being directed through the governor's office to Colorado State. So, the governor's husband is a animal rights advocate. But it's very frustrating to watch. Yeah.

Well, anyway. So, I know you've hunted everything in Colorado. You're, you know, sheep and moose. And, I mean, you've hunted S9 aggressively years and years ago. Mm-hmm. I mean... Had a raffle, sheep tag. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The raffle. Not a... The one year. What year was that? 2009. Yeah. Yeah. What haven't you done? High country. Dude, you're killing... I have not killed a mountain goat. Okay. Really? Have you applied? Oh, yeah. You've been your whole life? Yeah. Yeah. That's the missing link of my Colorado 10. Well, hey. Is it? Yeah. Colorado 10. Give us your credentials. We'll apply you. Oh, you got a desert and two Rockies, right? Yep. In Colorado. Desert, two Rockies. Cyrus. Done everything. That's interesting. Yeah. Deer, elk, antelope, whitetail. Does that count as good? I haven't killed a whitetail, but that's... Yeah, it does. That's doable. Deer and deer.

The one thing that I think is pretty cool is you've killed some... And you're known for it for killing big bulls on over-the-counter type tags. And we've actually had a few of them come through the photo submissions. I don't know what to say. But they're out there. Over-the-counter units. There's big bulls out there. Yeah. We've seen a few of them. But anyway, pretty impressive. I don't know if you want to dive into that a little bit, but that's kind of a... Like you talked about with 44 and the expanding herds of elk and whatnot, there is some opportunity there for guys that like to go over-the-counter. Yeah. It takes a lot of effort and work. Yeah. I mean, to kill bulls like that. It's a lot of knowledge, a lot of experience where you need to know where these bulls go. Post-rut where they're going to drift. Exactly. And they're kind of like deer, right?

They'll show up to the same type of winter ranges. They'll have patterns. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what you're doing. You're spending your time. You can find, if it's a place, you can find your bull sheds in the same place you're hunting in the late season. Yeah. And that patterns kill things. You're talking third or fourth when you do your elk is what we're talking about. Maybe sometimes you do deer second. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And so with the bulls, it really is about putting in a lot of effort to gain that knowledge of where they go. You will be... I mean, you guys know. No. They can live anywhere used to... Well, think about what the gauntlet... They got to run. They got to run. They got to run over-the-counter archery. Easy to draw. I'm talking the over-the-counter type units. Archery muzzle. First rifle, which is glorified OTC. A lot of units, zero to one points. You know.

Then second and third. And fourth's a draw. I mean, how many seasons do they got to survive? They are not. Quite often the only way you see these things are from miles away because when you're close to where they're actually at, you can't see them because of the way the topography. Timber, whatever. Yeah. So, you know, you're talking about looking at them from a long ways off. And yeah, it's... Cool. Yeah. Kind of a... It's a challenge, though. Like, you're thriving on this challenge. I'm into it. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, you're killing bulls that, you know, guys pay $30,000, $40,000 for a tag in Utah. I'm passing some up, too, that I'm looking for something. And that's one thing I really like about hunting with my wife and daughter now is that I can go out and we can go hunt bulls and kill nice ones without, you know, ones that I would probably pass up. But I get to be involved in...

Good. You're involved in having a good experience with them. Yes. And it's just so much fun. I do, too. When I... My daughter killed a nice bull this year and walking up on that thing with her, it was just... She was so stoked. He's a great bull. Yeah. It was... You get that. That is fun. It is a fun part about taking kids. My wife killed a really nice bull two years ago and it's just fun. I really enjoy that kind of thing with them, so... And deer hunting, I wish there was better deer hunting where we could, you know, put the effort and time in, but it just... But you're not going to quit, right? You're still deer hunting deer. Yeah. Yeah. It's... I think one of the recent bucks you killed, I don't know exactly which one, but I mean, you were talking more about... It was more about the age. Like you mentioned earlier, what, 10, 15 minutes ago, and it was evident, I mean, you didn't

kill a booner. You've killed plenty of booners. Yeah, he was a 29-inch deer. That was super heavy and old. At five-inch bases. Yeah. And he was an old man, freaking body like a tank. And that was your point, like, man, this is what this is about. My wife killed an old deer last year. That was great luck. Old, but crabby, not great genetics, had big bladey eye guards and super fat bananas. Old deer. Yeah. But not like a high-scoring deer. No. But it's kind of cool. No. But there's a lot... I think some of those deer are that way because they made it through. You know, a lot of these really good-looking three- and four-year-olds are pretty fours. They get crushed. Well, that's the other point. It's like, generally, in Colorado, age, in more than maybe a lot of other states, does equate any kind of age. Five plus. They look amazing.

So, some of these deer with poor genetics might make it through some of that with just a little bit of... You know, because people might pass that deer up when he's three, four years old on the first couple days. That's true. But then he's educated, too. Yeah. And he lives a couple more years. But a deep-timed 160 buck that's three and a half, four years, he's going to get toasted. Right. My daughter killed one. And it wasn't... She wasn't super picky. It just so happened that deer was in front of her, right? You know what I mean? Us. But, I mean, that deer got killed. He would have been something. You know what I mean? Well, but it's also... We're also not elitist enough to say that everybody... I mean, we're talking kids. We're talking the widespread. I know. We all were there. Yeah. So, that's... I mean, there's reasons. Everybody hunts for their own reasons.

But I guess if we're talking primarily on the podcast, like we've been talking about mature, older deer and the things that we know or hope to call it out or to be producing, that's what we're a little bit more tempered on right now. And I think it's... I mean, yeah. These podcasts are tough and our opinions are tough because, you know, for me, I would have passed both of the deer they killed. And you know what I mean? Like, and I'm looking at it from my mindset. Why is this guy killing this? Why is this guy killing that? Everybody's hunting for different reasons. And we all have tags. And we all get to choose. And so, the only things... I mean, I like to kill... Right. Personally. But I'm not going to kill something just to, you know, scratch the itch of killing something. But a lot of people are. And so, one of the only things we can control is tag numbers.

I swear that feels like that's the only thing we really have. I got to look at that thing on my wall the rest of my life. And I'm like, is that the deer I really wanted to kill? Yeah? Okay. Well, that's a good reason to do it. If you're doing it just to say, yeah, I got my buck and post a picture, might be not quite the right reason. I don't know. And people like to harvest. They do. And I do. There's nothing like it, right? Yeah. Killing a deer is pretty awesome. But just public service, you can't use apples in Colorado. Yeah. Well, how does anybody... Well, where can you? Here's the question. Where can you? Here's the question, though. How does anybody kill a deer in Colorado, then? Because seemingly, that's the only way it can happen with a bow. No. To some people. How do you kill them? You know, I know we're all being sarcastic and facetious. So, you know, I would say with...

One of the things I find interesting about the apple thing is people that do it, they're not posting that on social media that they're doing it. And occasionally, you'll see a picture of a big buck in the dark with the trail cam picture, and he's got his mouth open like he's yawning. No, he's chewing on an apple in his molars. And it just happened to be a really cool photo of it. And, you know, they're not necessarily... I mean, you're right. They're not showing those tactics. But everybody will show glassing through a BTX. They talk about, you know, the advancements with long-range optics. And if we're going to do away with one, we need to do away with them all. But we're all showing pictures of BTXs and 15s and the new Swarro NL-12s. My new gun or whatever. Going's long-range. I'm going to this school, that school. And none of that is browbeat near as much.

You know, I've hunted whitetails in South Texas from an elevated blind by a corn feeder. And I would not equivocate that to shooting mule deer over apples in any way. And you could say it's hypocrisy. I don't believe so. I think that's something special about mule deer in the West. The fact that you really have to do it on their terms and go out and earn it is special. The fact that you can't put piles of corn down in most places and have just deer just standing there. It's something special. It shouldn't be easy. Well, they're two different species, too. Whitetails live with people. If anybody doubts South Texas corn feeders, go down there and try to walk around in that brush. Oh, yeah. Good luck, buddy. Well. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you guys have been down there. No, I haven't. But, yeah. It is. The only place it's clear is where they plowed the road to put your feet up. Yeah.

Sendero. Yeah. Exactly. Is that what Sendero means in Spanish? I don't know. What's that mean, Chris? It's like the pathway. Oh. Corn path. There we go. Corn path. Chris, speak a little Spanish real quick. The yellow brick road. He's going to say, hurry up and get this over with. Just say that. Yeah. Apúrense. What's that? Apúrense. It's a hurry up. I don't know. Andale, andale. Arriba. I thought that's what does that mean. Why not use andale or arriba or whatever? It probably depends where you're at in a Spanish-speaking country, but. What was the cartoon we watched as kids? That's where I learned my first Spanish. Speedy Gonzales. Yeah, Speedy Gonzales. That was where I'm done. Yeah, it's just kind of. Hurry, hurry, yeah. Okay. That's where I learned my first Spanish, and it stuck. And there was probably non-Spanish-speaking people that built that part of the cartoon.

It's more when you yell at little kids than anything else. Probably. Arriba means up. They didn't even use. Hurry up? Where I've been in Spanish-speaking countries, they don't use Arriba for anything but up. Like stand up or whatever. Yeah. Instead of hurry up or whatever. Abajo? Above. See, we learn stuff every day. Low. This is good. This is good stuff. Well, anyway. No. Well, and it's, I guess, so to bring it full circle, yeah. Whatever your point situation, Mike, you're, you're a lot. It sounds like a lot what Jason and I talk about every day is wherever you're at, don't value your points in Colorado as gold right now. And that doesn't mean, okay, if it's that bad, I don't value them as gold. I should wait 10 to 15 years. No, we're not saying to do that either because we're not really, if this culture of second,

third, fourth season, combined deer and elk seasons, that is the culture of Colorado. And I don't know if you can ever get rid of that over there. So it's probably going to have to come down to, like you say, deer tag quota changes, philosophy, management plan, whatever, for there to be a dramatic shift in not killing as many deer as we're doing later. And if that doesn't happen, just go more often and hunt. So don't be selective with your listening right now. If anybody out there, it's like you're getting solid information advice from three guys that know what's going on. Probably be a good idea to listen and, and not just say, Hey, I'm going to keep holding out. Maybe it'll get better. We got a lot of tags, wolves coming, deer populations are low. Buck numbers are really low. Go hunting, use your points and go have fun. Burn them. I like it. I like it. Okay. I'm going to burn them.

Bronson. Okay. Tell me when you don't have a point. So I have zero. I'm going to burn them. Well, what is, what would you tell me? Just apply? Apply, apply, apply. Yeah. Apply, apply, apply. Either you're going to, you're going to get something as a first choice, second choice, third choice. I have some ideas for you. I'm going to help you. I'm not just going to, I'm not just, I've got my own ideas. I'm not just the guy with five Benjamins. I want to help you. I want to help us succeed. Okay. So zero points. Think of a season you can hunt that has historical Boone and Crockett potential that you could draw a tag in for any season with zero points. Yeah. That's where I'm from. The reason why I say about zero Boone and Crockett or Boone and Crockett potential is obviously there's a combination of factors, whether it's genetic habitat, whatever, that has allowed

deer historically to get big there. Not deer in the 60s necessarily, but that. So you already are looking for a deer that's possibly bigger than another one. That's right. In another unit. Yeah. For the same age class. So Mike. Four or five year old even can, you know, be in that category in certain places. And so if you're Adam, do you go archery or muzzleloader? Because we talked about when they shed the velvet, they start to wander and whatever. You only get like one week, nine days. I would go archery nine days. You've got to go first. If you go muzzleloader, the archery hunter is going to blow your buck out before you get there. Yeah. All right. Okay. You know, another thing we, and we, and we don't, we don't have to spend much time on it because Chris is going to say on delay soon, but, um, or Reba or whatever. I won't say Reba.

Um, well, you know, these deer are like archery seasons aren't just good in the high country. Like it seems like even some of these, let's call them what Colorado winter ranges would hold deer year round. Not as much as you would think, like relatively speaking in Utah and Nevada, I think it's a completely different situation when you have, we have so much high country in Colorado, mountain ranges all over the state, big alpine mountain ranges. They go up to those places. With the exception, like say 21, 21, 30, 62, 61. Plateau type units. Right. Plateau type units. 61. Yes. You know, they have those, uh, their summer ranges, oak brush, sagebrush plateaus. Yeah. Yeah. Winter range and kind of send an eagle. But I don't have to go to 14,000 feet. I guess my point is I don't have to plan on doing a 14 or two, two archery muzzle hunt. Yeah.

I, you know, deer don't live above 12 for the most part. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Got to have something to eat. Yeah. They have to have something to eat. They're not like sheep. So summer is going to be more about willows than anything else for high country mule deer. If it's willows in a basin that has a lake or a real pretty creek with waterfalls, there's going to be people there. Creek. Yeah. I don't want, I don't want a lake. Trails. I don't want flat rocks for people to spread out and do yoga on it. Sun up. Might be interesting. No. I want to, some of that I don't want to see. You can't get it out of your mind. Have you killed any of these bucks early season or have you done most of yours second, third, fourth season? Yeah. I kind of got into sheep hunting. So most of my early stuff, that's, you know, kind of like Adam, when you, when you do sheep

hunts and stuff, it just, that kind of burns you. September. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So that's been my problem too. I mean, frankly. Yeah. You've been guiding sheep hunters? Well, I mean, whatever. Well, and if I have time, our hunts here in Utah start late August. We go from there to early September. That's when we hunt our general Utah archery or whatever, or even if you get a Nevada tag, it's, that's timeframe. And so it's hard to go from right there to Colorado. So I'm basically going to start off my year with about 30 days of bow hunting, which is asking to be burned out before anything else happens, because I'm going to hunt one deer in probably Utah and one deer in Colorado. You're not going to make the bet. No, I'm taking it. Just trust me. So anyway, I've been in, I've been in Nevada August 10, almost every year for, I don't know how many years, you know, it's just been recently.

I've just started to spread my wings a little bit, do other things. Yeah, we've got too much to cover with, too. We could spend all day talking about Colorado and different things, but I'll give people a hot tip on moose. If you are lucky enough to draw a moose tag, you're going to find a lot of bulls in the summer while you're scouting. Do the archery muzzle? Charts are really good. They're not going to be there come rifle season. Talk to us about that. Is it like the same thing like with elk? They move the rut? Yeah. Yeah. Big bulls just start motoring as soon as they get a little ruddy. When do you feel that date is a lot of times in September? So the giant Pope and Young World record, I had found him, scouted him. He rubbed his velvet on September 6th and was gone. Immediately. Immediately. And my buddy drew the tag the next year.

And the only reason he killed him is because I had found him later in the rut with some cows. Different place. A couple miles away. And I knew where to go. And basically I told him we, and he had. The bull's going to walk in. He had an archery tag because he killed him with a longbow. So we scouted, couldn't find him after he disappeared. He turned in his tag and got a rifle tag, which you can do with moose. I know they changed it. Well, now you just get on them all. Right. So he turned it in for a rifle tag and he basically went to this area where I had seen him the year before in the rut and stayed there and just kept pounding it and pounding it. And finally one day that bull showed up and he was just right there. Wow. So find the cows and that's where you will find the bulls in rifle season, which is 1st, the 14th of October. Yeah.

Well, I've had guys tell us, you know, to hunt them, scout them, and then hunt them early, even archery moths, you know, before the rifle. But that might, like you're saying, it might even be too late. Dicey. It's dicey. You might be putting all your eggs in one basket and all of a sudden he's just gone. So they're really easy to find in August. Big bulls and moose up in the outpost. Willow bottom. Willows. High country willows. They eat willows. Yeah. Yeah. They don't go out and graze on the open grassy slopes above tree line. And they stand in the frickin' willows and eat hundreds of pounds of willow leaves. So, yeah. Find the cows. Good tip. Yep. Find the cows. Huge bulls in Colorado. Find the does. Find the cows. Rewrite record bulls. Colorado is kind of the hot spot. Don't look at it. Isn't it, Jay? Oh, yeah. It has in what we've seen. It has. It has. It has. Yeah. And.

I've had these fires this last year, you know, in seven and some of that country. 19 and whatnot. So I guess they're going to have some reserve tags. Rollover tags and stuff. Mm-hmm. People that sat it out. Yeah. Anyway. Do it again. I don't know. It'll be interesting to see. It doesn't sound like it was a decimating fire, like more mosaic. It's not like it's going to kill a bunch of elk. Yeah. Some places it was a scorched earth. In other places it was mosaic. Awesome. It'll be awesome. See how it affects. Any other hot tips? No. No. Not that I want to give on the air.

Let's just say, are you sitting on any points for yourself? A couple? One or two? I've got a pile of mountain goat points. Oh, that's the only one. Yeah. You probably hunt deer fairly regularly, I imagine. I've got one or two deer points. I don't even remember. But you're also a resident, so you've got to realize that can draw you an eight to ten point non-resident unit. You've got so many options. Two points. Yeah. I don't. Yeah. I'm not stacking points. No. Well, you don't need to hunt some of these big bulls like that. You draw a fourth season. You know, that's over the counter. On the third, most of the time the fourth is zero to one or two points. Exactly. You don't need points to hunt it like that. You used your points a few years ago on a limited quota unit, but... I didn't kill anything either. Yeah.

Now you're back to just killing bulls when you find sheds or you glass one up hunting deer or something like that. Okay. Next year, I'll be back for you. Yeah. I'm still relying on some knowledge gained through the past that I'm, you know, revisiting. You know, when these bulls go to spots... They'll go to them forever. Well, yeah. Other ones will take their places. Yeah. Yeah. They have all the right ingredients. Yeah. Food, cover, water. And being left alone. Isolation. And you're doing what you've preached and that's hunt the same place over and over and over. Yeah. Yeah. Some of the bulls I've killed, they aren't leaving maybe a 400-yard circle. Yeah. Crazy. Mm-hmm. All right. You're talking late, just to be clear on that. Yeah. We're talking third and fourth season stuff, right? Usually. Correct. When you're talking hunting them. Yeah. Different, you know... Post-rut.

Most post-rut bulls show up in their... I call them their bull nests. Yeah. And they show up in their late October to mid-November. And I think that's pretty consistent across the West. Yeah. Yeah. What are the projects you got going we need to know about? New knee. Oh, yeah. Yeah. March 19th. We are getting old. Word out. We were young yesterday. Why are we getting so old? I'm older than both of you, so... How old are you? 54. Are you? You're not much older. I'm a young 54. Quite a bit older than me. Knock on wood. I don't have... Skiing and basketball injuries wore out the cartilage of my right knee and it's just bone on bone now. Yeah. And then you got deer hunting, hiking mountains. It's your whole life for sheep and all those other things. Sheep. So... Yeah, my hunt with Ultima Thule was a struggle this year. It was about everything I could do to get through it.

And I had the easiest sheep hunt I've ever had, so it was very fortuitous on that perspective. But that's when you realized if this is this kind of hunt and I'm having this kind of a pain or whatever, I need to get this done. Crossed. Yeah. Crossed that middle. So... Popping in sets like their Skittles and... Yeah. Jeez. You know. Doesn't even sound good. No. But... It'll feel good when it's all over with. It was a great hunt. Killed them on day two. Blue skies. Didn't get rained on. In September, too. Didn't get rained on. Yeah. Biggest ram of my life. 14-year-old. Oldest ram ever from Ultima Thule. Oh, yeah. Awesome. Double broomer. Earl Klaus was a happy guy. He loved to see that. Dark rings. Dark horns. A lot of tree sap in there. Yeah. Tree sap and... Yeah. He wasn't up in the Alpine getting his horns bleached out. No. Yeah. So...

So you came over to deliver that ram to get mounted or... Yeah. Part of the way. Part of the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So... Dropped it off and then head to... Yeah. Colton's going to run it up to Colton Banks. Yeah. Famous antler reproducer. Replicator. Replicator. He does good work. Yeah. He does. He does. So he's going to take it up to Paul's. He replicated your big deer, didn't he? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I thought we were going to get a replica. Did we ever ask him? No, you didn't ask. We had to. I thought we were good friends. Just think people could drop 38-inch typicals at your door. I thought we were good friends. You wanted me to give you that knife to pay for a subscription.

Double. How does he know you weren't going to use it for knife handles with the scouts? And I might. Do plan knives. Yeah. So I wrote a book with David Long a couple years back called The Edge, Complete Guide to Hunting Mountain Mulder. It's being sold through Western Hunter magazine, westernhunter.net and the books. And a lot of good information for people in there. You know, it's shortening the learning curve a lot for guys getting into it and I think some solid information. So if anybody's interested in more of what I have to say, it's in there. It's in there. If a box of bullets costs you 60 bucks and this costs you 30, I think it's 30 bucks well spent. If you can find bullets. Right now, that's a problem. Backordered. People are going to yard sales looking for bullets. I got two boxes of 6.5 PRC Hornadies that are just like gold sitting at home.

I'm not going to say what I got because my house might get looted. But anyway. I've got the components. I just keep reloading. I'm not an ammo hoarder and I'm regretting it. Yeah. I'm not really either. But the older I'm getting, when you find the combination. I just, I don't, I do it with deodorant. And I know that's a major jump. That's weird shit, man. Yeah. I don't like to go buy one thing of deodorant every freaking 30 days or 25 or whatever. I know other people. I know other people that do these things. I don't know what you're going to say. But you're from the same genetics. So I just, when I shop, when I need something, it's like when I know I'm going to go through a lot of something, I just get it. So it's for six months. My contacts, I buy a year or two supply. I don't want to have to buy contacts every two, three months.

You know, I've actually, on this ammo stuff, hoarding ammo, like how good is it, how long is it good for? Like I had powder go bad. I went and I was reloading. I poured the powder in and brown plume of like a perfect cloud. Does that mean it's bad? I honestly don't know. I Googled it and people that think they know stuff. Yeah. Chemical. I got 30-year-old loaded rounds of 06 ammo that just, you know, I had a bunch of it and it shoots fine. It still shoots. Yeah. I just wonder if it's, you know, because it's in a controlled environment within the brass case. Versus an unsealed open eight-pound keg. Yeah. This one was a pound, but it was concerning. So we're going to start a new thing called the Throwback Challenge. You put on jeans and flannel and take your own right. Hey, you posted that. I'm like, I'm doing it. I know. I'm thinking about it. I saw it.

Was that like California pitch or something? Yeah. Pheasants or something? I don't know. No, it was coyote. Deer coyotes. That's right. You still look 6'10 at whatever age that was. You grew early. I was 15 and probably 6'2. Really? You look tall in that picture. Maybe your buddy was short. Yeah, I was short. Okay. I'm like, man, he was still tall as a young buck. Sleeves come up to his elbows. I know. You're faster than I could get new clothes then. Well, we are going to do that. I don't know if I could hunt and flannel, but I've thought about it. Just make the challenge. I'm not going to do it in the bowline, though. The Throwback Challenge. But I do. Going back to 2004, I was, I don't know, whatever I was. If the conditions are right. I was 30 years old or something like that. And I killed that deer, and it was hodgepodge clothes.

I had secondhand store, thick army wool surplus pants on. I mean, I have that in the picture. The Walmart Nat Gear. Yeah. The what? Nat Gear at Walmart. Think about it this way. We've been getting so many bluebird weather. Doesn't matter what you wear. Hunting seasons in the last few years. It's like, hey, man, put your jeans and flannel on. I think we should do it. I think we should start that. I think, you know, put your gun in the rack of the deer, like you said, sit on the deer. And not full arm extension. Bring him up to you. Okay. Put a fixed date back on your rifle. No. You know, our cameras are, in all honesty, there's not as much of the shoving the rack out as people kind of make jokes about. It has everything to do with the perspective on the lens and the phone cameras. We call it the fisheye effect. Isn't there a setting 1.7 or there's something on the eye corner?

It's freaking ridiculous on some of them. But what is it? What is the setting? We don't, I don't have camera gear like that. I like portrait mode for shooting field. Yeah, but I mean, what are people using to get that fisheye effect? What's the distortion setting that you, that makes a 23-inch look like he's 33 inches? It's a perfect spot of being just close enough to the rack that the front end widens out. Yeah. And being far enough from the hunter that it doesn't skew the perspective. And it works quite well with these camera phones. Well, there's guys. And so when you tilt the rack forward slightly, you know, you see a lot of these muzzled down photos. That's the technique. So if you want to make your 20-incher into 28 or your 28 into 38. I mean, it's impressive, the before and after pics. Alex Nestor's the master of that. I tell him that. Do you tell him? Oh, yeah. What does he say?

Alex is my buddy. Does he? He says, no, man, they're really that big. I'm like, dude, they're not 50 inches wide. Yeah. Well, that's what everybody's doing. So, you know, it's just part of it. But I think bring the rack in close, old-time photo. So maybe do a black and white overlay. I don't know. Yeah. Use an old camera. Okay. Here's the challenge then. You can't just say, let's do it. And like, hey, it's 80 degrees this hunt. I can wear whatever I want because I don't need to stay warm. I don't need to stay cold. You don't be cool off. But you've got to pick the hunt six months in advance. No freaking way. You've got to pick the hunt. Say, that's not. You get there and it's snow for 14 days. We've got to get company-issued cameras like the old 35 or the 110. Film. Something. Yeah. I have strong remembering ability of reasonably crappy clothes 20 years ago.

Well, and that goes, dude, I had green rubber boots with no insulation. I mean, I'm like. I won't do that just for. Just for a challenge. I think that's abuse. I think that's child abuse. I look back at what I was dressed in. That's child abuse.

Neglect. DCFS would be called. They would be. And how I have all my toes. Yeah. I don't even know. All right. This isn't the Rogan experience, so let's wrap this up. No, we're good. We're done. We'll get you to the desert. Oh, we're done? Yeah. Get you to the desert and have fun down there. Appreciate you coming by, Mike. Thanks a lot. So let's see what we can get. All right, buddy. Bronson's going to see you in the archery hunt. I'm going to be down there third season. We'll see what we come up with. All right? Sounds good. I'll split Carter's Finders with you. Lock on.