EP 202: The Changing Landscapes of Hunting, Special Guest Tim Pask

You've been everywhere. It seems like you've done it all. Just as we were getting up to move positions, the ram we actually wanted walked into view. You can't complain about the quality of deer and want every tool in the toolbox. You can't do it. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, Chris Peterson at the mic, coming at you from Southern Utah. Sunny, Southern Utah, Bronson, I think we're going to have to start AC. What do you think? I think this is the last podcast of the year that we're AC free because it's about ready to crank it on. AC free. It's like drug free or something like that. I'll tell you, I was in Florida the last couple of days and it's warmer here than Florida. Was it? Somebody told me they saw you on Instagram with shorts. First time probably ever. Really? Yeah. I was going to say, we joked around it here when I said that. I'm like, yeah, I'm 15 years or so when I'm Chris and I don't think I've ever seen them in shorts. And I'm thinking, well, we did camp a lot together over the course of the last 10 years. Just videoing hunts and stuff.

I've seen you in shorts, but not the shorts you were wearing over there. I told them, I said, take a good look because it's the last time you're going to see it. Did they at least get the edge knocked off them in terms of whiteness? Is the edge knocked off? And now if you wanted to wear them here, you could again. I don't think so. Or you sunburned and hot over there. I didn't get burnt at all. It's cold down there, huh? Well, no, it was nice. It was like mid-60s, yeah. That's not warm enough. We're talking in gator country, aren't we? Pretty windy. Down there in Florida? Yeah. Gators are still cold. All right. Well, hallelujah first. Okay. Let me guess. Colorado's over with. Oh, no, they're not. Well, by the time you listen to this, it is again. So for all intents and purposes, it's over. And cheers. Cheers. Here we go. It's over. We talked to a lot of people.

And while we're on that subject, we might as well just go into this a little bit. What? What? What? What? Are people bringing their points to Colorado this year or what? Holy freaking cow. It's unbelievable. The amount of people with 15 plus, 20 plus, 25 plus. I'm like, what and where have you been doing? I want to. Colorado top it before we leave it. Let's play. I'm going to play a little game. Oh, geez. Let's just go. Let's rattle off two or three units or one, whatever. In the seasons. It's like the eye doctor. Yeah. One versus two. Yes, that's right. That is. A versus B. Well. One. No. Two. A. B. This is just going to be. I want a number. I want an over and under. You know, like when you bet on a game, there's an over and under. On a point, spreads, all that. And this is going to be an over and under. I don't gamble. Points required. I don't gamble. Very often. Well, we are right now.

Chris used to play pie gal poker. Occasionally. Yeah. Well, it's kind of a push, you know. 50-50. Yeah. Good time. All right. What we're going to play is we're going to throw out some units. And I want thoughts of the units that you think might have some of the biggest jumps in points. Second, third, and fourth season. From 2021 back to 2020. What it went from last year to 2021. What it's going to look like. Okay. Keeping in mind late dates. Everybody's in a froth frenzy. Okay. I'm going to. Okay. You go. I'll do one. You do one and then I'll do one. Okay. I'm going to ask you this question. Ah. Second season, Colorado. Unit 44. Okay. 2020. Was eight guaranteed. Partial was seven. 100% with eight. Only 14% with seven. Okay.

What's the over and under? On. I'm figuring. 12. You think it's over or under? Oh, it's over 12. Boss. Wow. It is. It's going to be. That sucker's going to hit 14 pretty easy. Maybe. Maybe more. What do you think? Am I wrong? What do you think? It might be slightly high. I think the 12. Do you think 12. The odds people in Vegas want to put it right about the 50-50 line because they get money on both sides and they want to make. I'd say 13 and a half. They do a lot of .5 stuff down there and it makes me mad. You can't have .5 of a point, but it means you have to be a full point on the other side of it. So, you're taking the over on 12 points. I'm taking a little. On 12 points. Oh, yeah. I think it's going to be.

12. That's what you think. 12.5. Okay. All right. All right. Well. Give me one. All right. We'll stay within the second. Okay. 54 second. Okay. That was a guaranteed with two. 80% draw with one. Okay. One assumption you have to also superimpose is that if tag numbers are going to be relatively the same because if they had 100 tags to you, they already have. So, you're quantifying your answer already. Well, okay. Because we call them and they don't have that. They won't give you that number yet for another couple weeks. 44, though, for five years at least in a row has had 65 tags and about 18 to go to non-residents. But if you look at 54, it's been from 135 to 325 within the last five years. That's right. So, it. Four years. Yeah. But if they gave the same number of tags last year, let's just say that. That's the caveat. I guess say three. Okay. I buy that. I think you're right.

Because you're dealing with. Could go a little. 91 non-resident tags last year. It was 80% with one. That ain't happening. That's right. Well. Yeah. Because they give so many tags to non-residents. 91, like you said. Then you can bring on an influx of people and soak up that demand a little bit and not see huge jumps. All right. Conversely, let's jump to third season because I think here's some that could get interesting. Chris, you know what I find interesting? What's that? Every day, Bronson would be like, I'm so looking forward to April 6th. I can't wait for this to end. And what day is today, Chris? April 8th. Okay. And what are we talking about? The same thing. And who brought it up? Adam. But I get to orchestrate the discussion. It's different. All right. So, third season. Let me find a juicy one here that I think has a high level of volatility. Juicy fruit? Okay.

I'm still searching. This is not pre-made. Well, let's... I'll give you... Go ahead. You start. 68 third. Okay. That was seven last year. 73% were seven. So, let's just say the bulk of seven pointers.

My money's on 10 or more. Oh, yeah. Huh? Oh, yeah. You think? Double digits. It's going to hit 11-ish. You go to 10. I'll take 11 and up. You take... 10. 10 and down. And then what do we win? The 500 rings. 500. What? Well, why are we doing the 500 for your muzzleload? That's another discussion we've got to cross the bridge. I've got until May 1st to really... You've got May 1 to lock in. Yeah. You know we can find Leonard Tech. So, I've got another one for you in that regard. All right. It is...

Let's move to the fourth so we can get out of this place. Okay. Real quick.

15 fourth. Oh. Okay. So, that one sees huge fluctuations just because of the tag numbers. Tag numbers. That's right. Fourth season, have the preponderance, tendency, whatever the big acronyms and weird words are to describe increasingly hard to predict. Huge valleys and big peaks, right? Is that what you're talking about? All that. All right. Because you're dealing with 10 or 15 total tags, right? So few tag numbers. So few tag numbers. Last year, that was 80% with four points. Okay. And it's been seven plus in the past. I mean, it's had huge changes. What's your over-under number on that one? Dude, I mean... I don't know. That thing could go... Who knows? But I'll guarantee... I'll guarantee it because I just said, who knows? It's got to be seven plus. I was going to say seven, eight. Yeah. And this is not... We want to base this off of just gut. We do not...

As we hang up with you guys in your calls, we do not keep a tally in how many people... We don't. This is not based on... I keep track of who applies for what, how many points here and there. Here and there. But we don't keep a tally and we know and can predict this with factual basis. And the state could care less what we say. Yeah. Whoever applies, applies. They don't ask. They don't give a crap about what we say. Well, anyway... Real quick, to wrap up the deer in Colorado... Yeah, let's wrap it up with muzzleloader, Bronson. Yeah. So, I applied for points only.

Okay, all right. Okay, I'm getting closer to that $500 bill. So, my only hope... I had many people send me second choice options. Some of units I'd never heard of in my life. Hey, speaking of which, did you do a little research on 231?

Seriously. Nevada? No, no. I'm talking about Colorado. No, I didn't. I know where it is on the map. I've hunted nearby. But I did. Did you know where it was before we talked about it two days ago? Kind of interesting. No, we both noticed at the same time for some reason. And it's kind of included in another cluster. It's in the right zip code. 12 cluster, yeah. Somebody email us a photo of a giant buck out of Unit 231 in Colorado. Just do it. Jason at EpicOutdoors.com. Yeah. Somebody's got something. All right. So, I'm at the mercy of a turnback, which is going to be difficult this year. We've talked about that. Or, I guess, a landowner tag. And landowner tags for a muzzleloader are not the easiest to find because there's not very many of them.

And not a lot of landowners apply for those versus second or third seasons because they're easy to get rid of seconds and thirds on late season years. Muzzleloaders, who wants that? But I'm going to still take your bet. You know what's funny is the people that listen to the podcast, I mean, and we should call Jeff John, but I don't want to today. We'll give him a little bit of a break. But I know he plugged in for a muzzleloader hunt, and I half think it's because we talked about it. He did. He was proud of it the day he applied. He texted me and you together. Yeah. And looked like a fist pump or something. Said all in on the muzz this year. Something. And he'll smash a giant? He will. I mean, he just gets lucky that way. Part of it. And he's a good hunter. Part of it for me, though, too, is now I've used my points. I've got my wife and kids with a lot of points.

Jason, yours are kind of in the same position as mine. We've used our points. And it's a good year to use theirs to the extent possible. You can't use them all perfectly because there's only so many dates and some of them are in school and all that. But I anticipate maybe trying to have on some nice to average fun hunts with them. And so I figure muzzleloader is earlier than, like, when I get busy in Utah this year. It's a year off of our sheep and elk seasons. Some years they start the same day. So I've got a full week to go over there, even ahead of time, and then a full week to hunt, to blow smoke at some. I can't wait for you to do that. I can't either. I'm excited talking about it. I really am. So anyway, but, yeah, so it'll be interesting to see what comes of it all. But I could back out at any moment and I'll be third season with the rest of you all. Yeah, that's right.

How can you let the late dates go, Bronson? It's hard. Okay. I'm quivering already. Yeah, just write the check. So anyway, how about, you know, it's tough enough to get your own draw strategy. You mentioned the kids, and I told you about Ashley Cain, my youngest. And she's a killer of all killers. She'll have alligator tears when she finds out. I don't know what I'm going to do with her. Well, the problem is she's only got one or two points. Yeah. She's 14 or something. And so if I've got kids. What are the options? If I've got kids and wife lined up for second and fourth and maybe me being selfish on the third. What does that mean? What am I going to do with Ash? You know what I mean? Muscle loader's a decent option. No, it's not. It's open sight with Ash? No. Hey. All right. She'd take it. Just don't let her sit home. You're not going to live that one.

So she's already talking about, what am I doing, Dad? All right. Moving out of the house if you don't have her deer tag. That's right. Well, so what I want to do. So let's give our listeners the epic experience. Okay. We don't know. Our office does not know we're going to call them. We're going to call in. We're going to get the head secretary. She's awesome. Most likely we will, unless she's on the other line. And then let's see what our line gets transferred to, though. Let's go to Holly and see what our license app department's doing. Now, keep in mind, Bronson, our license app department's like four people deep. But I think Holly will roll with things. We make the other ones maybe a little bit nervous. I don't know. We can't make Holly nervous. They might all be nervous. So I don't know. What do you think? Let's just see if she's glad Colorado's done. Okay. All right. Let's see.

First, we're going to hear from Wendy. Hopefully. There's a spring in their step. They're jovial. They're jovial right now.

To the outdoors, this is Wendy. Wendy. Hey, how are you? Good. How are you? This is Jason and Adam. Well, I'm nervous because I know you guys are doing a podcast. So did you recognize our voice? She has your number probably, Carter. No, this is. Oh, did my number show in on the caller ID? Yeah.

There's no surprise. All right. Well, don't be nervous. I'm not mad at you, okay? Adam is. Okay. No, he's not. He's not. Hey, we just want to talk to Holly. Is she available? Yeah, she is. Hang on. All right. Perfect. That's. Yep. Hang on. She's awesome.

Hey, I didn't know we had music. Is this you, Chris? Dude. I guess so. Is it? I never called our line. I was like, that sounds familiar. Wow. We need a little update on that. The epic experience. Hey. Mixed with Chris. Let's just. Looking at the stars. There's no city to life. I don't ever wait on hold. Did you know this was here? I had no idea. Chris, we're probably all your royalties. Probably. We're probably. Where is she? Hello. There was a long silence there. How come you didn't just pick it up and say, Epic Outdoors, this is Holly. How can I help you, please? Because Holly was in the kitchen scanning documents. Oh. Gotcha. You're too busy. You had to run across. Well, we just had a random thought with. We're celebrating a little bit in here that Colorado is done. Even though it's not done, it's extended. But by the time you already listen to this, it's done.

So for the sake of the listeners, it's done. How does that make you feel, Holly?

Absolutely fantastic.

And why would you say that? It's a big state, right? It's a giant state. But it's also got, for licensed application ladies like Holly and Journey and Sydney, is username passwords, right? Guys go check stuff. They maybe buy a weird license a certain time of year. Change their passwords. Check their points. Change their passwords. And that creates some work. Yes. So you're glad it's over. Yes, I'm glad it's over. But you guys did a heck of a great job. Wouldn't you say? Thank you. Crushed it. Crushed it. Now what? What's on the front burner now? What are we working on now? We're just kind of teeing off a new... Nevada. Nevada. And it's a giant one too. Nevada. Nevada. Yep. Getting hunter education validated. Good point there. What do we mean by that? And who's doing the hunter eds? And it sounds like you're scanning documents. Yep.

Anyone that's new to Nevada, we have to get copies and send them off and get them validated so that we can get their applications done. That's right. As a prerequisite, they've got to see that you have it, not just type in a number and check a box and say you have one. They want to see if you're born after 1960. They want to see proof. So is Wyatt doing anything or is he taking the day off back there? I couldn't really tell you. I hope he is working back there getting some Nevada coding done for us. I think he is. Yes, he's multitasking over there. How about we... Can you see if he's on the other line right now? Maybe we'll just have you transfer. After we're done, we'll have you transfer us to Wyatt and we'll make sure he's not wondering. We don't want to leave him out. We don't want him to feel left out. Don't want him looking for something to do either. Nope, he's available. Okay.

Well, thanks, Holly. We appreciate it. You guys crush it. Our license app guys are in good hands. Thank you. All right. Yep. Awesome. Thanks.

Getting the full epic experience.

He's not going to know.

Do you think he sees your guy? What do you guys want? What? Are you in the office? How did you know? I am in the office, yeah. You mean when a call gets transferred three times like that, it comes through as Carter's number still? They warned you. They warned you. It does. No, it says Jason Carter. I'll read your telephone number off, too. Geez. I should be Star 6-7 you like I do the states. Like I do the states. Well, we just called. We're getting an epic experience for our callers today. We called and chatted with Wendy for a minute. Chatted with Holly about how happy she was about Colorado being done. What was new on the front burner. How about you, Wyatt? Are you still a little bummed that Colorado's behind us? Yeah, yeah. It's a good one to have behind us. Moving on to, of course, Nevada now. You've even kind of done a few last minute guys for Colorado. Yeah. Yeah.

We've been able to get a few last minute guys. And you welcome new clients at the last minute, right? Yeah. Always welcome new clients. Right. Well, good. So you're working. It sounds like you were coding Nevada. It seemed like you had blown through several hundred. Yeah. Just coding Nevada, getting ready to go for our guys. So we're caught up on that. You know what? What are some high points in your mind, Wyatt, with Nevada? Holly talked about what she was doing. We talked about the prerequisite to get your hunter ed, if you're a first-time applicant, born after 1960, get that all registered in your account before they'll, quote, unlock it and tell you you're good to go. What are some other high points that you're seeing running across or vibes in your mind? Just their simple system probably would be one of the high points in Nevada. They make it easy for guys to apply. And change.

And plug and play. And be able to change for free. Plug and play. So, yeah. So what I like, too, is, you know, Wyatt, as we're coding our guys in Nevada and whatnot, is there's so many options. You've got five choices on the application. And you can get creative. And I like that everybody's application is unique to them. Yes. Yes. So, anyway, anything to add to that, Wyatt? No. I think I better get back to work. Well. All right. All right. That sounds good. Well, we'll be there shortly. I'll let you guys play. Come on. Well, it's. Come on. This podcast room is really hot. I'm bearable in here, but somebody's got to do it.

All right, Guy. Guy. All right. Talk to you. Bye. Well, anyway, there's the epic experience, folks. Nice, happy people. I can't believe I get. I guess the caller ID rings all the way through to everybody. Yeah. There's no surprise. You're going to have to start six, seven people. We will. You know, it's like we have friends that check on their employees, drive through their own drive through and just kind of test them. We don't do that. No. Our guys are good. Gals. They're awesome. Well, Bronson, in addition to Colorado on the March issue, of course, we covered Idaho sheep, goat, moose. Kind of far. We haven't talked about it too much yet because it comes out way early, but it's not due till April 30th. And, you know, you and I are constantly, you know, every once in a while, you know, we choose moose. And I drew one. Okay. And then once in a while, we choose. Every once in a while, once.

Okay. In the last 46 years. Okay. Okay. That was once in a while, a long while. We basically got dared to put in for it one year, I think, back in the day. And to encourage some new stuff, we put in for neighboring units. We did a smash and grab. And you drew. And I didn't. And I've never applied for them since. Okay. But, okay. And then having said that, once in a while, pretty regular, we apply for sheep. And if you apply for sheep, you can't do any of the others, including deer and elk and antelope for the special limited entry units. That's right. So. One consideration. Yeah. Again, there's no points in Idaho. Probably the biggest high point. All residents and non-residents are thrown in the same hat together. Not like some states like, say, Utah or Colorado. We have set aside clothes. Where they set them aside.

Nevada, where you set aside and the non-residents fight it out amongst themselves. And you can add up the number of non-resident applicants and calculate odds. Idaho isn't like that. You all apply for the same areas everywhere. And you have a 10% statewide cap governing non-resident sheep, moose, and goat applicants. But also no more than 10% within a unit, which works out to be one. You know, no more than one in a unit. That's right. You never know year to year where our non-resident tags are going to come out of. That's right. A lot of people say, do you start the front, the back? No, it doesn't matter. You get lucky and draw a great number. They basically rank you from, let's say, one to, I don't know, four or 5,000 sheep applicants, residents, non-resident combined. There's about 2,000 non-residents that apply.

And as they start drawing and issuing tags, you've got to remember, as they draw non-residents, every other non-resident in that same unit is now out of the draw because you can't draw more than one in each unit. So a lot of times you'll see, Jason, a unit 11 sheep tag goes to a non-resident. Well, fairly regular it does. And most of the time there's 300 to 400 people put in there. And so if that guy draws one, boom, there's 300 to 400 non-residents out of the draw. Well, then you've got 352 and the odds are 1 in 433. The lion's share are non-residents. So the odds, it's kind of like a progressive raffle. It gets better as they go as you kick non-residents out of each unit as they draw. They can't draw a second tag in that unit. So it's very hard to calculate, I guess, true odds. So how do you quantify everything you just said on paper when I want to know what my odds are? You don't.

Okay. You just simply list the number of total applicants per hunt and the number of non-residents per hunt like we do. And then the odds based off of the fact that or up until when we met our quota. That's right. Those are the right odds until we meet our quota. That's right. All right. Well, let's call a guy. Let's call a guy that hunted sheep in Idaho. Yeah. Give Tim Pasch a call. Good buddy of ours. Awesome tag. Client. Been, you know, client for years. Let's give him a holler. Just, I don't know what he's doing today. He might not even answer, Bronson. I don't know. Let's see what he says.

Hello? Are you fishing in some remote corner of the world right now? I'm actually holding my Idaho deer. What is it? Which one? It's my white tail off my farm. It's just rubbing your... It's got my farm in, so he told me to bring the antlers over. Gotcha. Oh, this is Adam. Adam and Jason here. We're on the podcast. And so we're calling famous sheep hunters from last year in Idaho. And you came to mine.

You're sorry you picked up today. I am. Yeah. I actually just got my form. The form came in for my Idaho big one. I ordered my taxidermist, so I'm pretty excited. So... That's awesome. I'm getting a good stamp picked out for him. Well, hey. Not to put you on the spot, and you're a busy guy. We just... I'm grateful you answered. Of course, we are here at Epic Outdoors. Just wanted a quick rundown. You know, we applied you. Of course, you had all the luck. We just did the paperwork. But, you know, tell us a little bit about how that hunt went down. I know it's a very aggressive country. Idaho has some of the most aggressive country there is in the lower 48. But you ended up with a great ram. We just kind of want to get a quick rundown of that. Well, the first thing I want to tell you, and thank you guys, because the knowledge you have is far more than I have.

And it's always confusing for guys like me to know where to put in and, you know, the units. And it's just... It's really confusing. And so, back in the day, you know, I was always taking a wild guess trying to figure it out. But I really appreciate the help. And I have to tell you, when I got the email that said I was successful, I read it, I don't know, three times. And I got this big adrenaline blast. Oh, yeah. And my wife... That's as good as killing it. That's as good as killing it. It's crazy. My wife walked in and looked at me and said, what's wrong? You know? And I was like, I think I drew a sheep tag. But I was still questioning whether I had or not. And so, in fact, I did. And, yeah. So, it was a surprise in many facets. I've been on a lot of sheep hunts. And you prepare the best you can. But I will tell you that I've been around, gone to a lot of places.

But I've never seen country like that before, honestly. It's as big as anything I've ever seen. Anywhere. Even in your home states, just mind-blowing. Yeah. And I feel kind of bad because I should have been down there. You know, I lived here and I hadn't been in that area yet. So, I was... I kind of heard about it and I've driven past some of that country. Never been in the middle of it. But it's as big as any place I've ever been. And the difference, maybe not in elevation, maybe not even elevation gains. But the elevation gain in a short period. In other words, you can start at the bottom and it's pretty much straight up. It's... I'll give you an idea of... We spotted... Early in the hunt, we spotted a band of rams. And then, like every other sheep hunt I've been on, we had rain and fog and wind and all kinds. Everything that can go wrong does. And we lost the rams.

So, we did some pretty good hikes out of camp looking for other rams. And we found a band of rams that we almost went for. And we probably hiked, I don't know, several hours to get to a better position to glass them. And then, we decided we were going to be out for at least a full day without gear if we were going to go for them. And we weren't sure that they were bigger than the rams we'd seen out of camp. So, we ended up going back to camp and devising a plan that, hey, if we can find those rams again, we want to get a better look at it and then make the decision to go. So, the next day, luckily, the weather was great. And we glassed up the rams from camp. And now, granted, they're straight across from camp. So, it doesn't look like it's that far. So, we ended up taking off, dropping off the top, straight down and straight up.

And it would have been probably the shortest hunt that I possibly could have had. And it just absolutely gutted me getting over there. It was amazing. And it did take some hours. And then, of course, once you get up on top, you're hoping they're still there. And that country had burned years before. So, it was perfect camouflage for those bedded rams to try to find. And we were looking back. And a guy in camp had a flag hanging up if the rams were still there. So, we'd go up and we'd glass back. And at one point, we were pretty close to the top. And we glassed back and didn't see the flag. So, we convinced ourselves the rams weren't there. And luckily, we repositioned and found out we just couldn't see the flag from that position. And sure enough. So, the rams were still there. We climbed up on top. But we'd snuck up over top of them.

And I bet it was five or six times looking down trying to not only find the rams. But then when you could find the rams, you couldn't find all the rams. And then you're trying to decide which one was that big ram that you were looking for. And as easy as it sounds, it's a lot harder when you're above something looking into that burnt timber trying to pick that ram out. It's all rolling away from you and all that. Yep. Yep. And so, it was kind of funny because we had convinced ourselves that the ram we were after was bedded to kind of our left and hid. We couldn't really seem that good. And just as we were getting up to move positions, the ram we actually wanted walked into view. We'd never even seen him before. You know, we knew he was there, but we hadn't seen him yet. And he walked in from our right. So, we were going to move to position on the wrong ram. Wow.

And then, so, all of a sudden, now it's go time. It went from, you know, looking hard trying to find the ram to, like, yeah, kill him. And I got to tell you, I wasn't really in kill mode yet. But I was just, I was looking down trying to think about what I was going to do. And then, all of a sudden, was get him on the ground because, as you guys know better than me, is that, you know, it happens quick. And they could be there and you can have your shot one second and it could all be falling apart the next. And the wind was swirling. And so, anyway, I shot and I was pretty sure that I hit the ram, you know, I hit him pretty hard. And the guy with me says, oh, you missed him. And I was like, are you sure? And he goes, yeah, you missed him. And he goes, he's running. He's running right there. I tried to shoot him, you know. I'm trying to get in scope. And there's rams running around.

And I'm like, I got to tell you, man, I don't think I missed him. And he goes, yeah, I saw him run out. I saw him run out of there, you know. And so I said, well, we need to go down there and look. And luckily, when I shot him, he moved forward and flipped underneath this burnt log and just went out of sight. And then, of course, all the other rams took off. And it was easy to decide that I had missed. Yeah, it was easy. So you never want to hear that, though, you know. No. And we're all confident guys. So, I mean, I know when I make a pretty good shot. But even when you're like, I made a great shot. And the guy said, you missed. You're like, oh, oh, crap. You know, somehow something happened. You know, I did miss. But so we got down to the ram. And I don't, I mean, you guys have done it. I mean, it's like walking up onto a big mule deer or just something that you prized.

Kind of a sacred moment. More than anything else, you know. And you're kind of that speechless looking at it. And it's almost like it's not real. Yeah. Did this really happen? And I'm one of the guys that understands and really appreciates that. You know, you hear the stories about guys who, you know, put in once and drew a tag, miracle tag of some sort, you know. And, but I really, I really, really appreciated the opportunity and what that tag was worth. And I really appreciate you guys helping me get that tag because honestly, I'm sure I wouldn't have got it. I just wouldn't have got it. And that opportunity kind of pushed me forward because it was my second bighorn. And once you get two of those, it's pretty hard not to go for your second Grand Slam. So we just cost you a bunch of money. A lot less fishing trips. Yeah, you absolutely did.

And I actually might have concluded that second one had COVID not hit because I, like me, like you guys, like everybody had other trips that got pushed. And my trip that got pushed was a stone sheep hunt up in the Yukon, which would have finished my second slam if I had gotten one. So not only did it push it the year that I was supposed to go, it pushed me out two years because of guys already having hunts. So you're not going this year no matter what then. Yeah. And I wasn't going this year. So now it doesn't, it doesn't look like, unless you guys know different, that I'm not sure Canada's opening up again. It doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good. Nope. Well, I think it, I think it speaks volumes. You've been everywhere. It feels like Tim, you, you, you're my idol. You've been everywhere. Fishing, hunting. You've done, it seems like you've done it all.

Guys that follow you on Instagram know that. And guys that don't go check him out, Tim Pasch. But just to say that this is, you know, one of the most brutal hunts that you've done says a lot. Yeah. And a lot of places in the Frank church will make grown men cry. I'm not going to ask you if you cried. I will ask you one thought that crossed my mind. You had a flag that the camp guy was supposed to put up. The Rams are still there. Did he give you a white flag that you're supposed to put up or said, I'm tapping out? This is this climb over here. I'm tapping out. No. I will have to admit to stopping a few more times going up the hill than I thought I was going to have to. And, you know, all I can say is that if you're going to apply for the Frank church, if you're going to spend time in there, you just can't get in good enough shape.

In other words, just keep grinding and grinding and grinding. And no matter if you think you've reached it where I'm good enough to go, you have not. So, and then after that, it's just mental, you know, you just got to go. Well, not everybody kills a ramp either. I mean, you know, obviously some people physically can't. But then, you know, even guys that drawn are in shape. We've had friends that go and they come back with their tag unpunched, you know. Bad luck or even if you're in shape, bad luck, bad weather, fire, just weird movements of sheep. There's such a sprinkling. Yeah, such a sprinkling of sheep there where everything looks like it's a possibility, but there's not sheep everywhere. So it's just a, it's really a needle in a haystack in that country when it's so vast, so big, all of it looks like sheepy country. And they're not everywhere, so.

Yeah, it's amazing how big it is and how few rams are actually in there. I mean, I don't know what the density level is compared to other places, but, yeah, it's, you're not going to find them in every, every sheep basin does not hold a ram. And it's, it's different, it's much different than a lot of country I've been in where you could roll up in glass and you're 80% sure that, you know, sheep live there and you're probably going to find one. And that's not the case over there. So they're, obviously they're nomadic like everywhere else, but the country is so big and so vast and they've got so many opportunities and you got to have the secret water spot, so on and so forth. It's a little bit, that country is a little bit like chasing big mule deer, I think, because it's, it all looks good, but only a few spots hold them. You know, I was just wondering, you like big mule deer.

Did you see any in there? I did not. And if so, where are they? This is where Tim starts getting really quiet. I glassed up two mule deer does, not a single buck. Jeez. But you know, that place, that place has a few hidden giants. I think there's probably easier places to go look for them. But if you kill one in there, I tell you, you've earned him. Yeah. I, yeah, I just, I couldn't, it was such an amazing experience. I, I just feel blessed to, to, to be able to get in there and come out with a great ram. It's such a bonus. And, uh, well, and again, and again, honestly, I would not have drawn that tag without you guys. I would not have. And I really appreciate that. Well, I think it's just, you know, we went out on a limb. Thanks for giving us the reins, I guess. That's right. We went out on a limb knowing what you're capable of and, and it worked out. So. Yeah, it worked out great.

So let's do it again. Yeah. Well, this year, yeah, we got a lot pending. So hopefully we got you with good news or a good email coming soon, but you're getting ready to give those turkeys heck up there. Aren't you? Oh yeah. No, I was, I was actually just went and got my second turkey tag too today and my bear baiting tag. So I'm, I'm a, yeah, it's always a season coming up. Yep. You kill everything. All right, buddy. Well, thanks again for answering. Thanks a lot, Tim. We appreciate it. No, thank you. Thank you. Thank you guys. Really appreciate it. Okay. Take care. All right. Bye.

Seriously. Bronson, we did last year. Oh, well we do about every year. And occasionally if I'm busy, like, I don't know the year I thought I made. When are you not busy? I'm always busy, but sometimes like the August 30th opener, which is the opener for most of the sheep hunts up there. Not all, but I, you know, sometimes I'm tied up right then with something I can't avoid, whether it's maybe a statewide sheep hunter or something like that. And I, I don't like to miss that. And I don't want to always just look to the end of October for some of the later hunts because sometimes I'm busy then too. So I've had to do deer and elk. But for those of you that are interested in applying for moose, sheep, or goat, the deadline is April 30th at 1159 Mountain Time. You do have to buy a non-refundable hunting license, which for non-residents has gone up. It's 185 bucks.

They also charge a $45.75 controlled hunt application fee. They also charge internet convenience fees to all of that. Also, also, also. Also, also, also, 3% of the total. So it'll end up being, even though there's no points or anything like that, with your hunting license, app fees, 3% fees, it'll be about 325 bucks non-refundable out of your pocket. And they do also make you pay the permit fee up front, which also went up to $2,600. Which helps your drawing odds. And it also, in theory, helps drawing odds. So anyway, there's a lot of also's in there. But having said that, that's why we're here. That's what we do. We help people get tags. And give you options. And Tim got one. Somebody's going to get them. At first, we were gnashing our teeth about the prices, okay? The non-refundable prices mostly. Okay. Having said that. What's the price of a Rocky tag going for in the world right now?

Okay. $80,000 to $150,000? What's the price of a Bookcliff's deer tag going for? Archery here in Utah. I mean, yeah. $12,500. Sheep hunters are romantic. They're dreamers, right? And $325 bucks for most sheep hunters. That's the best $325 bucks I've ever spent in my life. If I have a chance to hunt sheep. Take your Biden bucks and apply it. I know. That's what I think. All right. So anyway. We went from Trump change to Biden. Biden bucks. Trump. Trump change to Biden bucks. I want Trump to be the president, but Trump's not right now. And Biden's handing out money like it's being printed on the daily. But it sounds like when you say Biden bucks, that sounds like a positive thing. And it's like, no. Well, I mean, there are bucks in your pocket. Okay. All right. So anyway. So speaking of tag prices, we're getting some of these tag prices. We're watching auctions pretty much weekly, Bronson.

Hunt and FishConnection.com. I mean, you watched some going last night? Two or three a week. There's 20 some that ended last night and a bunch this weekend. They're coming. Coming and going. Two or three different organizations between Mule Deer Foundation, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife. Yeah. I think National Wild Turkey Federation of Utah will have some on there. There's a lot of tags that are out there. The Epic Federation. We need to do one. Did I say that? No, but we need one. We need to do an Epic. We need a 501C3 branch. We do. What would our cause be? We haven't talked about that. Preserve big stuff. Wildlife and stuff. Mule Deer. That sounds very. Sheep. Very refined. We're going to preserve stuff. Big stuff. Yeah. Sugar and canning preserve stuff. Big buck. Big buck. All right.

Probably not going to do a 501C3 organization, but those that are here set up. Maybe, Bronson. What else are we going to do when we get old? I can think of a lot of things. Like what? You're going to burn your antelope points. That's for one in Colorado. That's the one thing we're going to do. And we're going to keep hunting. Hunting where we can hunt. It's fun and enjoyable. Chris, what are you writing down?

Editing something out. What are you going to edit out? I'm not. At 45 minutes and 22 seconds, cut all this. He's going to go apply for Idaho sheep. What did you just write down? Oh, well. It's not. I can't read. It says Red Rock Precision. Yeah. Oh. Go ahead, Bronson. We don't have big cue cards. Sometimes they're cue cards on the fly. Yellow sticky notes. Red Rock Precision. Kurt Pilcher and his crew there, they've been partners of ours from literally day one. When we said we're in business, doing our thing. We support those who support us. That's right. Love their guns. We've shot their guns even before that for many years. We all have one of their guns that we've bought and used at some of their schools and in the field. Whatever you're looking for, whether you're looking for an all-around gun or a lighter weight sheep, mountain goat type gun, they can do it. Call them with a cause.

Call them with a purpose in terms of what your intended use is going to be for it. Not all rifle. You don't need a .338 or .300 Ultra for everything you hunt. But Kurt can help you. Pick the right optic combination, everything like that. RedRockPrecision.com. Great guys. Probably not too late to get going. Sooner the better as there's been a lot of, I don't know specifically in the Red Rock world, but in most other worlds of optics and hunting-related gear and anything else in the world, there's backlogs with inventory and product delivery. So if you're thinking, get moving and make it happen. Well, one thing I did want to point out, we did talk about the tag prices. We've also had some cancellations, Bronson. We had a brown bear hunt come in. Two of them. Out on the peninsula, out on the end for $27.5 for a pair of guys. We not only sold them, but have a waiting list. That's crazy.

And back to kind of that theme. If you're looking for something, don't delay. And we're not saying this as a sales pitch, but because we've seen it for a year solid now with the impact that COVID has had on the inability to get to places like Canada, or the inability or some people's lack of desire to go to other places, foreign places. Because there's been an incredible amount of pressure on the Western North America hunts, the deer, elk, antelope, sheep, moose, goat hunts, you know, all Alaska, everything. And stuff is not lasting. There are not deals. Everybody thought when this hit last year, going to be a bunch of great deals. It's the exact opposite. There's supply and demand. It's the toilet paper principle. That's what we started with, and that's what we're ended with. Oh, okay. Well, yes. So I just want to add on. We also had deer tags. We have deer tags. Now, we had deer tags.

So things are selling like crazy, elk hunts, whatever. We do it. Devin here in the office keeps us posted on all the openings out there, Bronson, and we try to keep track of everything. And so anyway, if you're looking for a hunt, it's not hopeless. We do have stuff. Give us a holler. 435-263-0777. Right, Chris? But with tag prices, you may just be better off to buy some hunting ground. Yeah. Hunting ground? Where did this come from? You keep that forever. Okay. And pay taxes on it forever. Or sell your hunting ground. They may come with tags. How about or sell your hunting ground? Buy or sell. It will sell. Oh, all right. It will sell. It'll sell. It's better with a whale on it. Go ahead. Go try to buy a piece of property around Cedar City right now to put a house on. Bronson, you kept by a quarter acre. Yeah. That's right. That's what we're talking about. All right.

And recreational properties, kind of no different. But if you're in the game to either buy or sell some western recreational hunting, ranch, fishing type property, give Blaine St. James and his crew at St. James Sporting Properties a call. Great crew. They work in multiple western states. Colorado, Idaho, Kansas, Montana, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah, and Wyoming. They're based in Colorado, but that's not all they know. Make that clear. Blaine's been a great friend of ours. He's a very avid hunter. Very close. I can't remember. Only a couple species. I think I'm missing on the North America 29 himself. So he's been there, done that in a lot of places, seen a lot of great places property-wise, hunting areas. It's sjsportingproperties.com. sjsportingproperties.com is the best way to check them out on the web or their phone number, 877-354-7247.

If you're looking for anything like that or know somebody that is or know somebody that's trying to sell property, give them a call. It's a great time to sell. I'm telling you right now. Great time to sell and when's a bad time to buy? Think about this. Every time we've thought about, you think about houses or anything else, you think, I'm buying it so high, so high. And in one year, it's appreciated so much that you're ecstatic that you bought back when you did. There's just a new normal. Chris, your house. There's just a new normal. You could retire on the difference. Maybe not retire, but... I don't know. Maybe. A couple hundred grand, though. It's dumb. Easy. How about that? Well... That's a lot of wages. All right. Well, where are we at? Okay. Well, Bronson, and I do like Blaine St. James. You know one thing that's kind of funny about Blaine St. James?

Where does he come up with all these giant deer pics? Well, these trail cameras on these ranches, I think. What do you mean? I don't know. I think he knows a lot about where big deer are, but he doesn't tell us a lot. Because we were on his website and we're like, what? Where's this? What's this? Well, but maybe they're proprietary to the ranch that they came on. I don't know. I'm not going to buy that. He knows more than he's leading on. That's all I know. But he is keeping track. Because he's a hunter, he's keeping track of these properties that produce big animals. And, you know, of course he's interested in that. He sends me video clips of him fishing, catching 10-pounders, browns, and whatever. I'm like, what are you doing? Anyway, good dude to visit with. He's a wealth of knowledge in hunting as well as properties. All right. So, we did partner with Triple S. Polaris.

They're incredible. Here in Cedar City, Utah. Known for their service, their expertise, and building exactly what you need. We've sent a lot of guys to them. Anyway, give them a holler. Triple S, Polaris. If you're looking for a Razor, a Ranger, what else do they make? The General, four-wheelers, street bikes. Anything Polaris. Street bikes. Accessories. They specialize in building custom vehicles for whatever you need it for. So, SSSPolaris.com. And they will service anything and will help you no matter where you live. 435-865-0100. Tell them where you heard it. You heard it first. Right here. The Epic Outdoors Podcast. All right. Well, I don't know if we're down. Are we down to the end, Bronson? I don't know. We need to give somebody a tidbit. Chris? What do you want to talk about? What's the ticker say? 45, 55? I'm guessing. 54. Yeah. You're close. Nailed it. What, you got six minutes?

No. You going to make everybody's dreams come through? We did a two-and-a-half-hour one last month. Remember that? Yeah. We're just getting started. That was so long. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. If I'm Chris on the back of this magazine, is this a picture of you? That is. Where did Under Armour take a picture of you at? Down in New Mexico. Oh, yeah. That's right. Oh. Chris had a question, though. I don't know. You got to. So, you were on. You had a train of thought. You know, I may be applying with Reckless Abandon this year, right? You mean trying to get any tag you can get? What does that mean? Just applying because it's the last year that I'll have 100% control. Oh, yeah. That's coming up. What do you mean? He's engaged. He's engaged, right? Chris, is it weird saying my wife? Is that weird? No, it's great. Your wife's going to take care of it all for you next year. That's actually better.

She's pretty good at taking care of it. Yeah, she's very detailed. Chris, do just random groceries show up in our fridge for you? But I do all the applications. Oh, okay. 100%. That's a lie. No, it's not a lie. I do 100% of the applications. So, your thought was, yes, we know you're playing with Reckless Abandon. What revelation do you have for us? My question is, okay, Idaho. So, I'm looking at, okay, possibly sheep, possibly moose. Come on, Chris. Serious. What's, what's, what do I do? Pluses, minuses, well.

But, ah. The odds are much better on moose. No question about it. Because, A, more people don't choose them over sheep. Sheep number, tag numbers are, you know, roughly 100 versus 500 total tags for moose. So, they give a lot more tags. And if you have to choose between one of the three, most people are going to pick moose over. So, if you want, just from an odds standpoint, and they do, Jason, have quality bulls. They do. They got a lot of units to choose from. Mine was like 40-something inches. Three? Low 40s. But not a, not a giant. I'm not saying he was a giant. But, it was great for what it was. Didn't, it didn't cost me any points. They don't have points. Yeah. But, I think the other thing, Chris, everybody's unique. Like, maybe we're after a sheep, you know. We've killed a California bighorn, but I want a true rocky. Maybe you're a mountain goat guy. I don't know, Chris.

For me, moose is a priority for me. It's a high priority. Okay, so you're doing moose. That's something I want to do. I would highly consider it. And the only consideration you have to make, because I know you like elk and mule deer, too, is, all right, if I choose that, I can't do elk and mule deer later. That deadline is later, June 5th. We're actually working on that now. And so, that's the biggest decision you've got to make. You've got until the 30th to decide to apply for the moose. And it costs a little bit more because the application fee is a little bit higher. And they make you pay the sheep or moose or goat fees at the time of applying and ding you 3% for that. So, you're going to end up being, instead of about $200 out of pocket for a deer and elk at a little over $200, here's $325 for a moose. Plus or minus. Yeah. And what I did, I went and got an over-the-counter deer tech.

Bronson, you did, too. Yeah, we bought them. General. Before they sold out, because now we have caps as non-resident. So, anyway, I went and did that, and I could still apply for one of these. And go on the general deer tech. So, you know, kind of cool. There's, anyway, talk to us after, Chris. We'll get you lined out. Wyatt's our moose expert. He killed two last year. His dad killed the Shiras. He helped kill one, and he killed one. Actually, three if you count him and Archibald's Alaska Yukon, and then his dad's Utah Shiras. Yeah, but could you imagine Wyatt and Archibald in moose camp by themselves? Do you think Wyatt really helped Archibald? Yeah. I mean, once one hits the ground, there's a... Okay, yes. Once it hits the ground. Knowing those two, they're not going to let the other one... Hey, get your freaking knife and get over here. Quit reading your book. Louis L'Amour can wait.

They're pretty tight friends. We love giving them grief. All right. So, anyway. Lots of good options, Chris. Lots of great options. We should talk and find out if you want to do it. And so, with the marriage coming up, did you tell her, like, BYOG, like, bring your own gun? Because I think she brings her own gun to the marriage. She brings her own gear. She does, but there's a good... I'm not going to be stingy because there's a dang good chance I'm going to be using hers, right? Well, you've done it in the past, right? Yeah. I'm not asking you to say the date, but we're talking mid-June. Yeah. Mid-June's the day. Yeah. We're two months. Yeah. We need some Jeopardy music. Are you excited? Are you nervous? Excited. Countdown. Cold feet? I'm excited. No cold feet? No. I've been 36 years waiting, so... Whoa. That sounds like a song title. 36 years and wait. Have you built that song already?

There you go. Is that what we're going to hear in June? There's your next number one. I think it's an awesome idea. Okay. Okay. Well, you might even make royalties. How can it fail? And I guess you'll owe them to her because it's because of her that you built the song anyway. Well, but remember, what's hers is yours and what's yours is yours, Chris. No. What's yours is hers and what's hers is hers. Yes. Oh, it's the other way around. That's the way it goes, Bronson. That's correct. You know that. All right. 25 years for you and I, by the way, this year, both of us, Carter. 25 years. Did you get married in 96? I did too, I think. Wow. Like a few months after you. Hey. That's crazy. Those are the best year of my life. It was a drought year. I killed it. Your marriage years of drought year. What did that happen to do with your marriage? Well, I just, 96 and 02, I can't get past them.

They're brutal. Dude, I killed a buck and he could have been 30 inches bigger. All right. Well, anyway, let's move on. It was the best year of my life for that reason alone. Getting married. I'm sorry, Jenna. She was amazing. I'm sorry, Jenna. I actually want to call her. We had some optics to send out. I wonder if they went out, Bronson. I'm just wondering. Hey. She took the day off to take your kids fishing today because they're out for spring break. I'd let her just do that. She did it. Don't call her back. She's a heck of a bomb. Just ship out one pair of bitos. She takes some hunting and fishing. Can you believe it? Calling coyotes, everything. All right. Well, anyway, so where are we at, Bronson? What do we got? I don't know. I think we're pretty much wrapped up. Other than that, there's a lot going on in April.

So we've got just a ton of things we're doing with our clients as far as, you know, Idaho, Montana's passed, Colorado will be passed. Hopefully soon. We've got Nevada, Kansas, Montana, sheep, moose, goat, bison, antelope that we're all cranking about and thinking about. Of course, Bronson, you and I, you're cranking out and, you know, the numbers and we're both researching, you know, Wyoming and Idaho like crazy. Yep. Idaho deer and elk and antelope. Wyoming deer and antelope. That's right. That's on the docket. Not due till 1st of June and June 5th, but it's on the next docket. That will come out in the May issue of the magazine along with Washington, moose, sheep, and goat. Some new changes there. People want to read about. Should we talk about some controversy? Depends on if it involves me.

Well, I just think there's a lot going on in this weird state of the nation where people are concerned. There's a lot of changes, you know, being proposed with trail cameras and different things in other states and people wanting to know our stance. People are in a frenzy. Good grief. And our stance is we love them. We run them, right? We do. We run cameras. Now, having said that. Are they going to take hunting away if they take away those? No, they're not. Not necessarily. And I do. There's nobody that said they love cameras more than me. I freaking love it. It's like Christmas time. I love them. Having said that, Nevada changed the rule. You can't run cameras after August 1 through December 31. It hasn't been the end of the world. And there's been people say trail cameras don't kill bucks, bulls, whatever. However, there's a lot of animals that get hunted because they're seen on camera.

Especially during a season. It's true. You can't say that. I hunted them because they're on camera. That's right. So I guess the moral of the story, and there's other laws that we've talked about in the past, whether it be New Mexico, Montana, Wyoming, that involve non-resident participation or guide draw participation, things like that. And I guess we're all waiting for the dust to settle on some of these things for the year, whether it be legislative, whether it be commission-based changes, which Utah made some big changes to their baiting law. That was a legislative change. No more baiting in Utah for 2021. Trail cameras, that's still up for debate. The wildlife board and all that can still adjust that between now and the hunts, and that is likely to possibly happen. And our take on it is, yeah, we can get worked up about certain aspects of this or that in every state,

and you can exhaust yourself at that. At the end of the day, let what happens, happens. And give your input. Try to be civil, the right word. I mean, good grief. There's been some bloodshed, it feels like, over some of these things back and forth. And I think part of it is, we personally may have personal opinions. Well, the other guy has a personal opinion, too, and it doesn't mean his opinion's wrong. He's coming at it from a different perspective. Guides may come at it from a different perspective. Non-resident in Pennsylvania may come at it. Maybe he don't care. He's in Pennsylvania, he don't care. So whatever your perspective is, it doesn't make it wrong. And I think part of it, Adam, we haven't just come out here on a podcast and just, you know, throw our opinion out there and try to push it on other people because they have a different perspective.

And my perspective is my perspective. Yours is yours. And so we haven't come out here and just said, this is why and this is what we think and by heck do it. There's a number of scenarios that I think are fair that I think would work. It doesn't mean I believe in banning. I don't believe in banning. But I'm also not against a partial season. A level of compromise. And I'm also okay if they just allow it. You know, I'm okay with that. I think there's some naturals. Arizona did away with cellular cams and instantaneous info. I think that's fair. Wyoming. Yeah. They're doing that, changing it up for this year. I think those are normal. I think people can probably come to grips with maybe that's crossing the line. I don't know. There's some electronic devices out there. Maybe those things are crossing the line.

So, anyway, having said that, at the end of the day, our point, like even at lunch, we were talking about it. Whatever, wherever the chips fall, we're just going to play within the rules. We'll react and we'll play by the rules. That's exactly right. And what we see is that you also then get people that are defending every piece of technology and every tool in the toolbox. Don't take it away from me. And in the next breath, they're crushing the game and fish for not having enough deer to hunt and quality of deer to hunt. All right? 100%. And in every way viciously against it. And I wear a biologist hat from the past. So, I've stood at the mic in public meetings. I've made hard decisions. I was a biologist back when we made the first tag cuts on the Ponson gun. And it was not pretty. Gnashing of teeth. It was not a popular thing among sportsmen. Sportsmen were pushing for it. Hunters.

But you had landowners. You had specific landowners receiving revenue from those. You had other interests, agriculture and whatever. It was a bloodbath. It wasn't fun. It wasn't popular. And you get by it. And now, you see what happened over five to ten years in the Ponson gun. It elevated. And granted, you can say there's room for improvement always and there's fluctuations. But you can't simply say you can't regulate me and expect your hunting dreams to come true every time you go out hunting. I'm judging on my constitutional rights by not allowing me to use A, B, C, D, through Z. E, F, G, H, I, J, K. And by the way, if you're going to take away A, you've got to take away from A through Z. Or you don't take away A. I don't think that's fair either. No. So you've got people saying if you're going to take away this and you're going to limit cellular cams, for example.

Let's just throw that out there. You're going to limit cellular cams. Then you can't allow BTXs to be used in long-range rifles. And where do you draw the line? And I think they love to gray it up so they can continue to use all the technology they want. And then continue to complain that there's no big animals and they wish there was more. And these aren't worth the points that I gave. And why do I see a lot of people in the field? And the next guy that has a valid opinion does a family reunion on something they can draw on a general on a regular basis. And he's mad. And now he can't draw it except for every three or four years. And he's mad the opportunity for the average family to spend time together is gone. And you think he's not calling biologists like you? Do you think he was not calling those guys? He's calling them wearing them out.

The same as the trophy hunter is calling wearing them out. And so it gets old. Like we see it from all perspectives. We're at lunch just yakking about it. And we see it from all perspectives. Like just slow down for a minute. Everybody comes from a different angle. That's exactly right. I personally love to see. I'd love to see more 280 bucks on the landscape. I would like to see what Utah is capable of producing. Yeah. But does that mean it's right that we limit everybody and nobody gets to draw ever? Have a thousand tags statewide? Right. No, it's not. You know, but you have to be willing. If you're going to make one argument, you got to look at what makes that argument stick or hold water. And if certain things additively add up to being more successful, either in taking better quality or higher numbers,

and you're not willing to give up it, and then you're willing to crush the division and talk about all the tag cuts that we're seeing on general season hunts and all that, which, hey, if they're not there, I applaud the division for making hard decisions. It's not all about Utah, you know, selling tags to make quotas. Okay. Those are hard decisions. Those are hard. They also come back rather fast on general season units where they have lots of deer. But you've also had the last, what, two or three years, Carter? Bluebirds, sunny. Everybody's out the whole hunt, breathing dust because the roads are powdered everywhere. And, you know, bluebirds. So there's no bad weather to keep the fair weather hunters home. And the deer aren't moving. And you've had crushing fawn crops the last two years. So there's not a lot of young bucks around, which is what most people are seeing on general.

So they have been tough hunts. They have been. And look at that from that perspective, what's led up to that. It's not just total mismanagement. That's right. That's right. Having said that, is the division perfect? No. They're not perfect. We've seen places where there could be some improvement just from our perspective. Not that our perspective is right, again, or any state. But having said that, like we used to have people real close to me always complain to the division because the division would come back at times and say, well, you know, what you can do, you could pray for rain. And it was very frustrating. That's not management. And I totally agree with that. There's nothing we can do. That's an act of God. Having said that, sometimes that's true, Bronson. These wet years, it's like Chia Pet. And it makes a difference. And then all of a sudden, everybody's praising the DWR.

At least the trophy hunters are. Wow. We had a great year. You've done something right. The very next year, they're complaining. And they're blowing it. And it's all because of moisture and all that. You double a fawn crop recruitment. You double one on a general season unit. It's monumental how many bucks you start. You can have the ability to recruit within a two or three year period if you string two or three of those together. It doesn't take very long. It's kind of like antelope. You can wipe them out in winter kill. You give them two or three years, they're back. Three years, they're mature. You know what I mean? And we're not talking about mature mule deer bucks. We're talking about general season hunting or just opportunity hunts or places like that. But our moral of rant, I guess, is be willing to step back a minute, not be absolutely so

gung-ho passionate about one specific thing that you're mad that's being, quote, stripped from you, taken from you, government labeled as government overreach. We have to have some sense of regulation. We have season dates. We have hunting hours. If you're going to complain, if you're going to say we can never make another regulation since 1980, we can't keep up with changing tactics, adapting, changing, you know, people understanding how well certain things work, whatever it may be, bait or whatever it is. If you're going to say we can never make another regulation because you're taking away my constitutional rights, what's the use of having hunting hours? Yeah. Why don't we just allow you to spotlight at night? If that's taking, it's on my private property. You can't tell me when, the deer's on my property. No, we have things in place like that for a reason.

Whether they be labeled as fair chase or acceptable or ethical or whatever, there's things in place and that's up for debate. A lot of this is on the table now. We're just, everybody take a deep breath. And so we're here. And so we're here. And so we're here. Do we think, and I've been vocal about this, do we think hunting mule deer in the rut with a rifle is a good management tactic? No. Colorado does it. They kind of get to get away with it a little bit because they're a deer factory and they still have deer to hunt. But we've all seen the quality diminish. Having said that, it's still better quality than say Oregon or even, you know, most of Montana or whatever. Because they're a deer factory. Right. Because they're a deer factory. They can get away with two and three, let's call them rut rifle hunts in pre-season, pre-rut season, rut, post-rut, whatever.

So anyway, do we think that's right and a good way to imagine? Not necessarily. And we've been vocal about that. Or look at Utah for another example that our sportsmen have been so reluctant to ever move. We hunt elk every day in September and the best days in September with rifles and muzzle loaders. Do you think it's good, Bronson? Is that good that we don't give an animal a break during the rut? No. And is it good to add more opportunity? And I'm not saying give them all the archers. I archery hunt. I muzzle loader. I rifle hunt. But if you want to increase the opportunity in Utah, you don't have all your fire, you know, 60% of your tags on the rifle and the rut. Now let's flip it on you. Okay. Okay. Now go ahead and try to change that now, Bronson. But you've got 22 points. Try to change that. And people are going to say, yeah, Adam Jason, you'd burn your out points 10 years ago.

Of course you want that. You don't care. No. All right. It's not necessarily true. But go ahead and try to change it and have no rifle rut hunts. It won't change because it started that way back when we had novelty elk herds. Here, five tags on Panguitch Lake, five on Southwest Desert, five on San Juan. They were the new thing, the new weird animal that's on the landscape. They started, let's give them in the rut, like them have an awesome experience. They never changed since 1990. That's something that's never changed. I don't. It's not kept up with the times. And yeah, and there's a big investment of people with points. I understand it. I'm just saying. And you think they're going to quietly go away when management practice, if management practice were to change. But it's the same people are complaining about something else strongly, but they're complaining

the fact that they can never draw a tag, ever, ever, ever draw a tag. And the non-residents are like, can you guys give so few non-residents tags? Because we hunt them in the rut. That's right. So you're complaining on one hand, don't take it away from me, but you're complaining you can't ever draw. Those are the types of, you can't have your cake and eat it too. We've had people say, well, if you take away whatever, let's call it thermal imaging. Let's call it whatever. If you take away that, you got to take away the diaphragm out call because you're imitating sexual sounds and that's not fair. Come on. There has to be, there has to be some common sense, but hey, that is an opinion of a guy out there. Maybe, maybe a hundred guys out there or 200. I don't know, maybe thousands. And so you think, I just want everybody to just think about this. You think you have a tough job?

Go try to work for Fishing Game. Yeah. And get paid, I don't know, 35, 45,000 a year and do it. Kind of like a school teacher. I mean, I don't know exactly what they pay. But go, just go try to do it. And then, and then, yeah, it's like going to the school board and everybody's a, everybody knows what to do, going to the school board and complaining about everything. And we're not really ranting against our school board or our school district. We're not just saying. We're giving examples. You're giving examples of, you know, it's, it's a rough place to be in. They're not malicious. There may be some people who are more passive and apathetic about their specific part of the world that they manage. We know that. There are other biologists and game managers that are hunters that have a, maybe a more of a vested interest to see something really improve, get better and all that. We admit that.

We get that. And there's techniques and things that come under question, that come under scrutiny, come under analysis from time to time. Don't lose your crap. You know? Keep your crap together. Okay. So, and I think, Bronson, we've covered it about as much as we need to. Having said all that, you know, I, it would be nice. Things have changed so much and we've been, state agencies are apathetic to change and regulate because they don't want to be known as that, is, is regulating us to death. But it's hard not to when things are changing so fast. And so anyway, I am a fan. I like to see some animals die of old age or at their very max and we're killing it. There's some amazing animals. You can see Epic Outdoors magazine and we promote trophy hunting. We promote it, right? And so, but it would be nice. Some of these bucks and bulls and whatever have incredible genetics.

It'd be nice to see them at eight years old. I'd be shocked at what they are. So, you know, I'm not saying regulate everything, but I'm saying we're not, there's a lot of things that were, that haven't been kept up with the times. One other thing I want to point out.

If you all think that taking away cameras levels the playing field, think again. Guides are out there nonstop. These guys know where to glass from. They know a unit inside and out. If you're, the DIY hunter can run a few cameras and can kind of have a good idea of what's in a unit if they do them right. By not, if they, you know, if you regulate cameras all together and you bat them, the DIY guy's going to go up against the outfitters who can, who are paid to be out there every day pre-scouting. Well, to use your example, what about the guy from Pennsylvania that loves to hunt elk or deer himself when he comes out west? That's how he does it. It's what he does. He's got his work cut out for him. You know, compared to a different set of circumstances. Now, not to say that he's able to run cameras if you allow him to run cameras from Pennsylvania,

but his guide or his outfitter might be able to, and he can't afford that. Or he could run them during the season. I used to run them during the season. I would roll in, put them up. And check them every day during the middle of the day when there's nothing going on. There's things like that. So there's a lot of different perspectives to this. We have our own opinions. We've obviously seen a few of them come through. The moral of the story, though, is there's a lot of ways to skin a cat. Look at every state agency that has restrictions on different muzzleloader restrictions, season date timings, you know, bonus. I mean, everywhere is different. We frankly are fine with the variety. I like the variety. I have three muzzleloaders. I have one that I use. If we go, I don't go to Oregon and Washington. Jason, you have.

But I've got one that's valid in those three states, you know, number 11 per kitchen. You got one, too. That's right. But you use that when you go up there, and you don't get rid of it because when you get a muzzleloader tag, you use it up there. You got a scope muzzleloader. Having said that, I do have a scope muzzleloader, and we sell scopes. How about that? And they're awesome, right? There's all kinds of awesome technology. Having said that, I'll just say it. I'm a personal fan that primitive equipment should be primitive. And for people to say that that has not affected the deer numbers on Utah Generals, when you can add muzzleloaders to them, it's not right. And I'm not saying I'm going to take that to the rack and the board of me and fight to go back. I just saw it both ways, and you can't have it both ways.

You can't complain about the quality of deer and want every tool in the toolbox. You can't do it. And what we're talking about is maybe taken away, or some of the ones that are under consideration that get the most scrutiny, or maybe the ones that will make the biggest impact if we just do this one or two things. And it might be your one or two things that you love to do, and that might be unfortunate. But you're trying to, I guess, look at what might get the most bang for the buck. I also think certain regulations, every state is different. That's why Utah has a different management tactic. We have different terrain, we have different social needs, whatever, as Nevada, as Arizona, whatever. Same thing out there, Bronson. They may have different circumstances where maybe they have a lot more catchments.

Maybe the deer are more vulnerable coming into a certain catchment because there's no live water. I don't know. There's a number. Look at Nevada for sheep, for instance. That's a big example of that. Okay. And their trail camera and their trail camera laws may not match Utah's because they have a whole different set of circumstances that they're dealing with. Utah sheep are not totally relying on guzzers. They're not. But are they in Nevada? Nevada's are, they die without them. Okay. They die. Okay. So my point is, does that mean we should regulate Nevada the identical same way as Utah? That's right. No. So there's different state to state to state. We represent all the states. We apply people in all the states. We apply in all states. We hunt in all the states. So we don't have just a set standard of this is what we do or what we think. It is nice to give the game a chance.

A, it is nice to keep up with the times and to realize that your rights aren't totally being violated by if a few more restrictions come your way. I don't think it's the end of hunting. Having said that, Bronson, we have been so vocal in politics and I don't want to make this political at all. But Bronson, we are anti-regulation in general in life. Yeah, we are. We are. We are. We are. We like to have freedoms. We like to do what it is we want to do without regulations. We look forward to the past. I like to not go down and have my emissions checked. I like that. That's why you live in southern Utah. Right. Instead of northern Utah. That's right. And that's another reason I'm not going to live up there. That's right. And those guys on the Wasatch Front can have all the giants up there. I had to do it for two and a half years living in Logan, going to college up there.

That was before they even had a missions machine. I moved back here and straight piped it the same minute I got back here. Seriously. Maybe they did have emissions up there. I don't know. They did. Did they? Oh, yeah. I don't remember. I'm not that old. Well, we're about the same age. About the same. Hey, one more thing we want to get a plug. You might have seen it on a shout out on our Instagram and an email. We developed a proprietary stud. We call it. The NL stud. The Epic NL stud. There you go. If you use a SLC Swarovski adapter for, say, your 15x56 Swarovski binoculars and use a Swarovski model, then we've made our own, literally, proprietary machined stud to screw in your NL pure vinyls. If you have a set, you don't have to have bought them from us. And it'll use that SLC post that comes from the factory. Pretty awesome. That's right. So give us a call.

We have them in stock for the NLs. I've got some plans and work for the ELs. Not ready to release those yet. But the NLs are ready in stock. Call us. 435-263-0777. If you have a pair of 10s or 12s or, I guess, 8s and want to be able to mount them with your SLC tripod adapter and put your work. Easy to put on. Easy. Easy. All right, everybody. That's about all we have for you today. Don't hate on us too bad. We're just throwing a few ideas out there. However, we're not pushing on anybody. Whatever happens, happens. We're all sportsmen. We all want the same thing in general. Remember that. Yeah. Chris? Sounds good. Amen. Over and out. All right, everybody. Have a good one. Have a good one.