EP 23: Hunting Giant Antelope with Tony Grimmett

And then we start doing the breakdown because of the ear size, the face size, and the eye size. Who knows those kind of statistics? That's crazy! How do you break down score in terms of what matters more? Anything to do with Western big game. Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter here and Adam Bronson as well With Epic Outdoors, another episode of the Epic Outdoors podcast. We're here with a super cool guest, Tony Grimmett of Pronghorn Guide Service. One of the most world-renowned outfitters for antelope and antelope killers. But before we get cranking with Tony, I do want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring this podcast. They're just super good dudes, been in the field with the executives there at Under Armour. They're good hunters and are in the field with us doing exactly what we're talking about.

So, anyway, we do appreciate them, but here at Epic Outdoors, we also book hunts. We're a full-blown booking agency. Of course, we specialize in western big game animals, Alaska, Canada, Mexico. We deal with some whitetail hunts here and there. You know, anything that's awesome and big we're interested in. So, we deal with the guys in Kansas and Iowa and different things as well. So, it's that time of year that a lot of the draw results are coming out, and if you're left with nothing or not enough in your schedule that you'd like, give us a call. Let us know the season dates you may be looking for, filling a gap in, or the species, and we'll get to work or immediately give you an opportunity right there on the phone, outfitted you might want to call and talk with, book a hunt, fill up your schedule.

Yeah, we've got a full-time booking agent, Jeff John, two first names. He's my brother-in-law. Super good guy, super personable, loves to talk hunting. He's dealing with our outfitters on a 24-hour, seven-day-a-week type basis, and helps Adam and I stay on top of the openings that we've got available. So, you can call in and visit any of us, but Jeff's a super good guy, and that's his main responsibility. So, anything you need help with as far as looking for a hunt with guaranteed tags, or even if you drew a tag, Jeff, Adam, or I can definitely help you. So, give us a holler. It's 435-263-0777, or hit us up on the web, epicoutdoors.com. You there, Tony? Yeah, I'm here. Awesome. Well, I've been looking forward to this podcast. You're one of those guys that, you know, Adam and I, as well as many of the listeners, can learn a lot from.

And antelope are some of the toughest critters to judge and, you know, just know exactly what you're getting into when you're hunting antelope. I know they're, you know, seem somewhat easy on the surface to hunt and whatnot, but to trophy hunt them is a whole different ballgame. So, anyway, maybe right before we get started, just talk to us a little bit about your background, how you got into hunting, and then how you got addicted to antelope. Well, yeah, I started hunting antelope when I was a young man. I think I was in my 20s and happened to draw a Unit 18A tag. Gosh, I can't remember the year, probably 84 or 80, somewhere in there. Just 20 years past the day you were born. Yeah. Well, it was longer than that. I think I was 24, 25.

So, early 80s. I just fell in love with them, yeah. Just the beauty of them, and I started to learn about, you know, the fact that their lungs and their heart, you know, is bigger than an elk's, and their tensile strength on their bones are like 10 times the strength of an elk's bone. Come on, how do you know this stuff? Like, who knows those kind of statistics? That's crazy. We got the right guy to talk about two points today on the phone. Well, I helped a guy with a book out of Lander, Wyoming. He started calling me early on, and picking my brain about stuff I knew about antelope down here, while he was telling me about antelope up there. But through all the different biologists that I ran into over the years, that's the stuff that they were telling me that makes them so unique. That's crazy. And the fact that they've been around longer than any other animal pretty much on the planet.

And they're unique to their own. There's no other species that's related. So, you end up drawing a tag. What were you doing for a living at 24 years old back then? Well, I was a police officer for Phoenix at that time. You know, I did that for six years, and I got out on a medical retirement. So, I kind of started doing this after that, and, you know, that was back in 1980. Wow. So, you're obviously, if you have any tendency to be interested in antelope, you're in the right state, at least, being from Arizona. I mean, that's a good place to start getting after it. Well, it's hard to get a tag here, but yeah, it's a great state for big antelope, that's for sure. So, did you hunt? Like, did you grow up hunting 16, 17, 18 years old? Grew up hunting deer, elk, other species? Or how did you get started?

Yeah, I pretty much hunted all those. You know, I was originally from Mississippi, and my dad was from there also. Grew up hunting and fishing, being a farmer. And he kind of got me into the, you know, dying to go deer hunting every year. Yeah. You know, and started when I was a young boy. So... Well, that's great. And so, once you drew this antelope tag, I mean, what did you kill? How did it kind of tell us about that? And then, when did you start guiding? Well, I, you know, I just, obviously, I scouted a ton, because through friends and stuff, they said, You know, the key in hunting is to scout. Guys that don't scout, you know, just get lucky. So, I took that to heart and scouted pretty much every day off I had, and found a big buck, and just kind of kept tabs on them, and ended up taking them opening day. No way. So, what did he end up going, or what?

He was 17 with six-inch prongs, and he was a big boy. I think he scored right at that 82 number. Yeah, so you started off hunting book antelope and never looked back, basically. Yeah, yeah, and he taught me that you needed mass, because he was pretty thin, and I found out real quick how important mass was on antelope. Well, yeah, leading right into that, I guess, you know, like Jason alluded, big antelope are hard to judge for a lot of people. You know, we're used to deer and elk and all that, things that tower at two feet, three feet, five feet above their heads, and that's not the case with antelope. So, let's maybe get into that a little bit. You know, maybe first off, though, and maybe that'll get into us about how to judge antelope, I know there's some differences state to state, but where do you...I mean, you're from Arizona,

but where is your favorite place to hunt big antelope? I'd imagine Arizona's got to be towards the top. Oh, yeah. It's, you know, actually, we work out of New Mexico and Wyoming and Arizona, and we live here in Arizona, and we do the fewest hunts here because you have to draw a tag, And the draw's tough. So, you know, with that being said, probably New Mexico and Wyoming makes it much easier. So, the older I get, the more enjoyable those two states have become for me. And so, you're doing a lot of, like, landowner tags in New Mexico and other bid tag work, and then in Wyoming, it's just a little easier to draw more tags available? Correct. Correct. And, you know, it's kind of an untapped source. There's just as big a heads up there, it seems. It seems it's anywhere except for the absolute giants seem to come out of Arizona, Nevada, and New Mexico.

You know, but for that mid-range, mid-80s type of buck, Wyoming's just got bunches. It has a lot. Wow, that's awesome. Well, so, as we get started here, I do want to just talk a little bit about, I know you said one time you like mule deer. Or mule deer hunting. I mean, do you guide any other species, or are you just pretty much really on the antelope? Well, we have guided a couple of Ibex tag hunters in New Mexico, but that's it. And that was simply, you know, clients that had bought that tag and wanted to hunt them. And then my daughter got fortunate enough to draw an Ibex tag, which is one in a million. So, You know, it was a blast, and we killed a couple of giant ibex over there. But other than that, no, we're pretty much 100% antelope. It just takes up pretty much my whole year.

So, they never get boring to you. I mean, you've got to have killed and guided hundreds and hundreds. I don't know. Lots. 701. Come on. Are you rounding, or is that exact? Does that include road kills, or is that just regular? 701 hunts to date, 656 kills. 478 of them were over 82 BNC. Come on. 478. Net or gross? That's net. Book, books. When I talk BNC, I talk net, and when I talk SCI, obviously it's gross. So, you just, they pretty much need the Tony Grimmett record book. I mean, that's pretty much, that's your section. That antelope section is your section. Well, when I started back in the mid-80s, that was my goal. I wanted to rewrite the record books. You really? That was, it didn't just start happening?

Yeah, I wanted to kill the world record, and I wanted to, you know, we literally dominated some of the counties, like Soquero County was unheard of in New Mexico back in the early 80s, and now it's number one for numbers of BNC bucks. And, you know, I think there's one county in Wyoming that's ahead of it, but, you know, we're in there too now. Well, that's aggressive, and you know, we've known you as the antelope guru, obviously. There's nobody that I know of, I'm pretty sure anybody knows of, that just does antelope and specializes in it. And you, I know, and your son, Eli, have that reputation as being it. And, you know, whether it be draw tags or other methods, you're the turn two guy, so to speak, to find a giant. And if there's one to be found in a unit, you're probably going to turn one up. But that maybe leads us to, yeah, let's talk about that.

And, you know, antelope, you know, they're maybe not the hardest to find. You know, they live in fairly open country in some regards, and obviously interspersed timber country I mean, other parts of the different units, but... They always chase my truck. They always chase my truck. They want to try to run you down. They want to race you every time, but... Well, they do. Yeah. Sometimes you can just start driving a little faster, and they gravitate toward your vehicle. They want on the other side of the road, yeah, and they want to cut you off, but, you know... They love to run. They love a good run, and if they think you're going to beat them somewhere, regardless of what you're doing,

In their mind, they've got to beat you. You got to find another gear. That's right. Yeah, exactly. So, let's, I guess, starting from the first, when you're obviously covering as many antelope as you can and bucks as you can is part of it, but when you start breaking down a big buck, let's start talking about what you really, how to judge an antelope, because there's a lot of different ways to 82 or to maybe 85. I mean, 90, you start talking about those giants. They've got to have a bit of everything. You can't just have height. You've got to have the mass to go with it, but what do you look for? How do you break down score in terms of what matters more? I know a sheep, it's 60, 40, mass and length, things like that. What do you look for? Well, first off, you probably need to know what they have in your area. In other words,

If you're hunting a state that you're not familiar with, or an area you're not familiar with, you need to head to the local taxidermist and start looking at ear size and face size and body size, because it changes in every region, which I found out the hard way 30 years ago. You know, you just have to do your homework or it's not going to work. Once that's done, because I did a seminar, the first Arizona Antelope Foundation seminar on judging, and I held up two ears, mounted ears that were cut off, obviously, so I could have them at the banquet. And one was eight and a quarter inches long out of New Mexico, and the other was five and a quarter inches long out of North New Mexico. Both mature bucks or whatever? Yeah, one was an 83-inch buck, and one was the SCI world record. So, you know, had that five-inch ear been on the SCI world record, he had probably looked 120. Yeah.

But, you know, he was 99.7, and still looked giant, but, you know, I mean, you've got to go by something, and if ears is what you're going by, you need to know the size of the ears in your area. And why is that? Break that down for us. Like, when you're looking at the ear, obviously, you're judging height and prong and whatnot, but tell us exactly what's going through your mind on comparing the ear. Well, you know, if you've got an ear size in your head and your area, then you can virtually lay the ear along the horn and come up with, you know, a reasonable length that you're not going to be off by a lot. But if you start, you know, if the buck's got five inch ears, five and a half, and you're thinking seven, well, you're going to think he's a lot longer than he is. So, you know, you have to have something to go by, whether it be the width of the eye, the length of the face.

Once you have a reference point, then you can start to begin to judge the antelope on his mass, how high his prong is, how long his prong is off the horn, just these various things. And, you know, we did a field judging video back in 2002 that we've gotten great response from, and people are still using it. I mean, it's very down to earth and basic, but it works. So, when you talk about, you know, ear size, head size, and that, area to area, and you've identified, I think it was northeastern New Mexico, is having small-eared antelope. I mean, is in that area, are 80% of the bucks all small-eared, or all of them? And in other parts of the country, very rare to ever find a midget five and a half inch erred antelope. You know, somewhere there's a cutoff line in New Mexico going north to south, and it varies, you know, in different areas going east to west. But the north basically

has these smaller faces, smaller bodies. They're probably 30 pounds on the hoof smaller. And And we've seen faces as short as seven inches. From eye to nose? Is that what you're talking about? You know, from the tear duct to the end of the face. And, you know, we've seen them as large as 8'6". So, you know, that's an inch and 6'8". It doesn't seem like a lot, but when you put all the other proportions in, that's huge. Yeah, so when you're judging, you'll take like an ear size, do the math, then you might look at the face as well, do the math, like you're saying, the eye, do the math. I mean, so if two or three of those add up, then you're like, okay, I'm relatively certain that's a 17 and a half inch goat or whatever. Is that how it's going down?

Yeah, for instance, you know, just an overall look, because of the experience I have, you know, we'll look at a buck, and my son and I, or Dave and I, my other guide, and we'll look at it and think, okay, wow, that looks like what we're looking for. Say we're scouting for the governor's tag or a premier tag, and we go, wow, that's a 90-incher. And then we start doing the breakdown because of the ear size, the face size, and the eye size, which we know should be a certain number. And we go, wow, I'm only coming up with 86 or 7 when we do it that way. So, you got to go by your breakdown. You can't just, wow, overall look, Boom, he's awesome. And if you're going to put him on the wall, and it's your buck, and he's awesome, what else you want? That's right. For most people, that's probably fine, but if you're really scrutinizing something, what you're saying about really comes into play.

And when you moved from that part of New Mexico over to, say, Arizona or up to Wyoming, where do you find average? Maybe there's some variation, but I don't imagine there's a variation from five and a half to eight and a half within in Arizona or Wyoming. I mean, is it just that region of New Mexico that seems to be the smaller stuff? Yeah, I think so. I mean, there's, for the most part, the Arizona bucks are lighter in weight, and, you know, they're just a rule of thumb. Most bucks will have a six and a half to seven inch year. And, you know, and that's from the center of the ear, but to the tip of the ear. And, you know, and most bucks will have a seven and a half to eight inch face. We say, you know, point blank average is about seven seven, and, you know, the ear is about six five, six six. You know, that's kind of the rule of thumb that we're using for most bucks.

That's Wyoming or Arizona. Wyoming or Arizona, yeah. Colorado, Utah, you know, just a general antelope. Correct. And, you know, you'll see charts top of the shoulder to the brisket. You'll see charts of 12 inches for an antelope. Well, that's a real skinny antelope. We use more 14 to 16, and in Wyoming, they're even thicker than that a lot of times. Even in New Mexico, we've killed the bucks that have hit the ground and been 19 inches from brisket to the top of the shoulder. Yeah. And clearly, it was a monster buck, and it was, you know, the new state record at the time. But, you know, they obviously vary quite a bit from region to region. We've had guys say, well, geez, this buck down here, you know, I can pick up with one hand and throw it over my shoulder. That's how small he was, like a coyote. Yeah. So, I'm sure he was exaggerating, but I've run into the same type of stuff.

Do you generally find that the bigger the body, the bigger the horn? I mean, down in, like, Sonora, you'll find these, you know, bucks with, you know, mule deer, small bodies, and they still have some, you know, big antler on top. I mean, so you do have those, you know, odd situations. But, I mean, generally speaking, the bigger the body, the bigger the buck? Well, actually, no. That's usually not the case. In 2011 and 13, we killed two of the biggest bucks ever killed in New Mexico. And both of their bodies, of course, you know, they were governor's tags, so their hair was terrible in August. And, you know, they literally weighed 90 pounds on the hoof. They were, it was like their heads, necks were gonna break, watching them walk around. The heads were so big, the horns. It's crazy. So, not always. And because it was a drought is probably why they were so large.

Because when they were fawns, they obviously had good wet years. So, their start was good. Then when they hit their drought in their prime at four years old, it didn't matter at that point, because the drought forces them to eat stuff with a lot of protein. Yeah, let's talk about that. Like, so, you and I have talked a little bit on the phone about that. I mean, and of course, people have their own theory for elk and deer, but for antelope, you're finding those dry years produce the best bucks or the best growth? The absolute largest bucks, yeah, are typically on drought years, and it's because of what they eat. You know, when it's nothing but a dirt field, typically the chemise grows, which is a type of sagebrush, and the winter fat grass grows, And they are very high, 30 plus percent in protein, where, you know, they're similar to us on lush years.

They'll eat stuff they like, and it's 7 or 8 percent protein, kind of like we do. We eat stuff we like. It's not good for us. Yeah, popcorn and stuff. Yeah. Chips, whatever. Yeah, you got it. So, that's Pepsi. You know, from what I've been able to learn from ranchers and biologists, this is kind of where we're pointing to be that factor of growth. And the hotter, you know, it's something to do with the heat. They have, you know, my son has come up with a theory about the horns and the glands and the way the horns grow. The hotter it is, it helps the horn growth for some reason. And I haven't quite understood what he's saying, but I think it's... It may be onto some. Well, whatever you guys are doing collectively, it's working. So, whatever theories you go with year to year, it's paying off.

But one thing you said a minute ago, you know, got me thinking about sheep. I spend a lot of time sheep hunting, and you said something about the start of these bucks, when they were fawns or yearlings or whatnot. And I know with bighorns, both rocky and deserts, and I guess more so maybe with some of the desert that are in areas that are very hostile. You know, two to five inches of moisture a year, you know, is it. And those starts, from a yearling to three-year-old rams, will allow their base size to get big during that period of time. And once they get big, they don't ever go small. You know, you never have a ram that goes from 12 and then goes back smaller. Once they're big, they're big, and they stay bigger. Antelope, you know, they're a little bit more unique, because sheep have horns that keep growing throughout their life, and antelope, obviously, shed them.

But is that bone core underneath, is that what you're talking about, about the starts, that it gets bigger, young? Well, yeah, exactly. Even though they shed every year, they're gonna be where, from all our video and photos that we do every year, we can tell from year to year that a buck has changed drastically, but yet he's still, in our brains, he looks, you know, we know who he is, where sometimes they don't change much at all. And a lot of that's DNA and gene pool and areas they live in and the type of growth they have. Some of them are completely smooth-horned, and other ones have bumps and knots all over them. Yeah, cheaters. Some of them aren't two points. Yeah, cheaters. Yeah, exactly. And a lot of people call them, oh, I got a buck with four prongs. Well, no, it really doesn't exist. You might think it's an extra prong, but it's really not.

Just character. They're just gross that are off a prong or, you know, protrusions. We've had, you know, stuff grow out of the back of the head. We've had spikes grow out of the bridge of the nose that are actually horned. Yeah. And, you know, it has nothing to do with their normal set of horns. It's just... And does that trait, do those traits carry from year to year? If you've got a bumpy, extra little growth? They don't. They don't. They, yeah, they have a, you know, they're, you can use it kind of, a three to five years old is their, you know, they're going to be big, they're going to be big at three, and then they could be a little bigger at four, they might fill out, so to speak. And then, you know, Kind of like a kid going from a freshman to a sophomore, sometimes they pack on 30 pounds of muscle. That's kind of from two to three for an antelope.

So, that three to five, that's your sweet spot in terms of just talking horn? Because that's generally a lot, and I know it was younger than say deer and elk, but that's very interesting. Yeah, if you want to kill a monster antelope, he's not big at five, he's not going to be big at six. Yeah. He's going downhill six, seven, and eight. Yeah. And rarely is there anything aged in the field that reaches eight. That's not a normal situation. Yeah, they work, you know, anybody that spends time watching antelope, they work hard to defend their territories and rut, and it's not an easy life. They're aggressive little farts, and that probably contributes to maybe an early maturity. And, you know, shorter life expectancy, you know, they wear out for us. They get used up.

And there's such a turnover. You know, we hear guys all the time, yeah, I saw this giant. When did you see him five years ago? Well, he's gone. He's not a factor anymore. Yeah. And they swear up and down. No, I just saw him yesterday. Well, they're seeing relatives. Yeah. Needless to say, the way they're designed, they can have like almost clones year to year. Sure. Sure. There'll be certain areas that are confined for antelope, and then around it, there's not much antelope stuff. And there will be four or five bucks in this herd, or they're spread out. But I mean, basically, and they all look alike, and you just got to figure out which one you're looking at each time. Because one will be heavier or longer or whatever, but they're all related.

So, how do you, I mean, obviously, like, we follow deer or elk and sheep year to year to year, and you're doing the same thing on these antelope and naming them. And, I mean, is this something you can look and just, you know that that's Ernie or that's Bird or whatever, like, you know right off the bat, like, that's that buck? Pretty much. It doesn't usually take us more than a few seconds, and one of us will pipe up, oh, that's so-and-so, or that's, you know, and then, you know, even if one of us isn't quite sure, you know, it only takes a few seconds more to figure it out. So... One thing, one question I had, you know, we talked about antelope shedding that black sheath every year. Here in Utah, at least, it's usually late November and December. I don't know how much it It varies everywhere, but that's when they do it here. When you, how would you characterize,

you know, obviously some of that growth's going on when we would all consider the bad, you know, deer and elk aren't growing. They're shedding that time of year. It's brutal, it's winter and all that, but antelope are making a start. So, at what point does the most growth take place, and at what point do you guys say, all right, we can start scouting now because what they've got That's pretty much what they got for the year. Yeah. Well, it changes, obviously, in every region or every state, and sometimes it doesn't. But, you know, I've been in New Mexico in December and had bucks that hadn't lost their horns yet, which blew me away, because here in Arizona, mid-October, they're all gone.

Really? You know, if you're seeing a two-horned buck, you're looking at a small buck that already shed a month ago. Wow. And, of course, we drop our fawns in April and May here. Yeah. I mean, you can go up to Prescott Valley or Chino Valley and see, you know, fawns everywhere in the middle of April, the end of April, and you just won't see that in any other state. No. So, when do you see them? When are they growing out fully? You know, here, We start scouting probably middle of May, toward the end of May, because they're probably 95% done, 90% somewhere in there. How do you think that would vary from the more northern states, say Utah, Wyoming, these other states? When would you...? Well, New Mexico is a little behind us. They dropped their fawns as late as June, the end of June sometimes.

It blows me away every year. I'm like, how can we be almost side by side, and they're six, eight weeks behind us in fawns' drop and the way their growth is? Because obviously, the longest growing season is the reason for the biggest horns. And that's why Arizona, New Mexico always shine over Utah, Wyoming, these other states, Oregon, because they have a shorter growing season. Wow. They don't drop until late November, December, and right in the dead of winter. So, their tops are the first things that come out. Okay? They got their sheets and their tops start growing. And if their tops don't get good moisture, good feed, and bad winter doesn't happen, then they could be good. Otherwise, they'll be thin, which is usually the problem we see in Wyoming all the time.

We get great bottoms because of summer growth, and they get great prongs because it's also summer and late spring, but their tops grew in the worst time of the year in the winter. Wow. So, it's rare to get super heavy tops in Wyoming as often as you would see it down here, where we get the smaller bases because of the hot summers. Hot summer, yeah. You know, they get long here and long in New Mexico, but their bottoms start to thin down long before they get killed. So, do you, you know, do you shed hunt them? Like, you're following specific bucks, you want to hold on to these sheaths and score them and judge them? Shed hunting is tough for antelope. I know, but still, it seems like the dogs and stuff chew them up. They eat them, don't they? I mean, I know when I've been out in the past, out with the dog,

the dog will bring them back to you, and then they're chewing them up. Yeah, well, think of them as scabs on your leg. When they're moist and fresh, they're really big. Well, that's an antelope set The horns in May, you know, in April, May, they're softer. They actually move and flex, obviously, if you get a hold of one. Where in June, they really start to get hard and solidify, and then they get harder as the summer goes on. They eventually get to where they itch them, and they pull them off. And that's, you know, the same thing that goes through a scab on your leg. And, you know, and as it does, it gets smaller. So, the horn's absolutely at the smallest when they shed it. So, you can't put, even if you find one, you're just like, well, he's pretty big, but it's a shell of what it probably was when it was, you know.

Well, yeah, you can bet he was probably two or three points bigger per side at his max. Yeah. And then as he dries up, he gets smaller and smaller. And then, of course, you know, if you look to where they pull them off, They've got to have a fence or bush or something along those lines. So, a lot of times, the horn will fall in there. Or if it does hit the ground, any rains, you know, they're real light once they dry out. So, they float and run down all these river bottoms and stuff and creek beds. And so, you've really got to know where to look, and you've got to look early in the spring. Otherwise, you know, they're going to get eaten up by rodents. When you're starting to scout here mid-May, end of May, June, tell us about their patterns. Do you find them for the next four months within a square mile, two miles, five miles?

I mean, what's stopping them from roaming? Or do they have a home like other critters? They do, but I've also known them to leave that home. They get pressured in there, they will leave, and sometimes I've seen them, you know, four, five, six miles away and take up residency somewhere else. And it's frustrating when that happens, because, you know, you think they got shot or whatever, and here they were alive the whole time. They just moved. And it doesn't usually happen in a season. It usually happens from season to season.

I see. I would imagine states like, you know, the northern states, Wyoming and whatnot, where they have to migrate to just simply survive winter sometimes, you know, dozens or, you know, dozens of miles. And do they always go back to the same place? Maybe you guys that you guys have up there in Wyoming know that, but there'd be probably more variability when you got winter and snow like that. Where Arizona, that's never really an issue. They can live. Right. When I first started in the antelope, everybody, including the biologists in Arizona, nobody thought they migrated. But they obviously do in Nevada and Wyoming and some of the colder areas because they can't live where they live in the summer there in the winter, at least in some of the regions. So, yeah, they have to.

And no, sometimes they don't go back to the same places. We know bucks that make it year to year in Wyoming, and we go back to find them. Sometimes they're not there. It's like, well, they apparently didn't come back, or they just moved across the mountain or across the water and they found home, so they stayed. So, they're not as, you know, territorial, I should say, as some animals get. Tell us about some of your scouting and hunting tactics, like obviously glass. I mean, obviously your glass, and that's a no-brainer, but I mean, there's a lot of ways to hunt antelope. And, you know, just tell us about some of that and what you find to be pretty effective.

Well, we like to, for lack of better terms, cover as much ground as you have scouting time for. And obviously, glass, scope, whatever. But until we locate the bigger bucks or whatever we're looking for, whether it be that or fawns or whatever, Usually, if you find the does early, you can bet there will be bucks later. Bucks typically will go to the does. It's not the other way around. Does don't go to the bucks. But a lot of times, the bucks will go to the does, and then they bring the does back to where they were. So, if you don't find bucks early, which is a lot of times the case, because they don't have does looking out for them early on, and they're roaming by themselves, and they're really hard to find, because they just, you know, for lack of better words, they're like nomads. It's hard to know what's in their head, because it doesn't seem to be anything.

Until the does show up, it's terrible. So, have you, you know, I see all these decoys and, you know, white t-shirts, and, you know, a lot of times when I think about you, I think I see you, the most common sight is a white t-shirt. I didn't know if that had to do with the hunt, or, you know, tell us about that kind of stuff, the decoying, or any of that work, or you use any of those kind of tactics? Yeah, I think early, early on, I mean, I remember having a white hanky in my pocket, laying out in the field, and started flagging. And, you know, like I had read in some sports of field or field of stream book, many moons ago when I was a boy, and I thought, wow, that really works. But, you know, it always comes to a point. The bigger bucks, obviously, are at least three or older. That works a lot on two-year-olds, decoys. All that stuff will work. It just works to a point.

Once a buck has seen it, he's going to circle to the wind side of you and try to wind you before he gets real close. I've seen that a lot. But like I say, everything kind of works to a degree. Everybody comes out with new objects, you know, antelope suits. It's like, okay, you're not going to catch me in an antelope suit. Come on, Tony. Come on. The older I get, the more I like living. You know, I did hunt in a white t-shirt quite a bit back when it benefited me. You know, governor's tag, a lot of times, you know, I've had guys say, get behind me, they'll see you, they'll see you. Well, I'll serpentine behind the hunter. You know, the guys that want to lead the pack instead of follow, but it confuses the animal and I can hold them longer, because they are curious. They want to know what the heck's going on. Why do I see white, why do I don't?

Yeah. But, you know, it's, you know, hunting them, you know, it's like, once they see you, stay seen. Don't try to hide once they know you're there. Yeah. That's probably one of the biggest mistakes hunters make for antelope, because they're not deer and elk. Well, and when you're talking about flagging them and decoying them and stuff, it's probably a lot like when Adam and I are, you know, other guys are hunting elk or something. A lot of times, you know, if you want to just hunt elk, yeah, go calling them. But if you want to hunt a specific elk or a specific bull or a specific antelope, you're, you know, it's not about just decoying the masses or calling the masses or whatever, so. Well, that's true. That's true. They're different worlds. I've

You know, I've been around guys that guide for antelope, and they hunt them like deer, certain guys. And I said, no, you gotta hunt them differently. So, if you were talking, I mean, you guys talking about, like we did earlier, the ear length, the face length, to get real references based on where you're hunting and things like that, to really ultra-break down a buck for, you know, score. You know, 85, 90, 90 plus. Those are very important things, and the averages that you give us, I think, are probably more applicable to the average guys. But for most people that draw an antelope tag, get an antelope tag, and they're gonna go hunt, what emphasis do you think when you're looking at horns, and you know, if we're just taking an average-faced, an average-eared antelope, what do you think you'd impress upon them to look for if they're trying to kill an 80-inch plus

82 inch plus buck. What emphasis should you say, look for this more than this, for instance? Well, you know, obviously, length is the easiest thing to see. Prongs are the easiest thing to see. Both are length. You know, you got two length measurements per horn, prongs and the length of the horn all the way to the tip. So, those are what most people can do easily. The hardest thing to score, and is the most important to me, is the mass. There's four measurements per side, because of the quarters, and you have to have a reference for that mass, and we use the eye. The eye width is typically 1.7 on, you know, 85% antelope, probably. It's right close to that number. 1.7.8? 1.7.8? From black to black on the eye. And, you know, we use that and then place it on the base and kind of, you know, visualize that and figure out how heavy the buck is.

Since you're dealing with the diameter of the horn, obviously, and you're looking at a flat side of the base versus an eye, what are you looking for? How much wider than the eye or whatever is a great width? Because obviously, they can be fat on the side too. Oh yeah, they can be real correct. I mean, I've had bucks that look tremendous from the side, and they turn and look at you, and I'm going, where'd the buck go? You know, I mean, you literally think it's a different buck because he's super thin from the front. So, he has to be even that much bigger from the side to get to that number that you're so-called looking for. You visualize what he was from the side, and from the front, you may either go up or down on that.

And, there's, you know, obviously it's math, and my son is probably better at that than I am, but he's come up with, you know, ways, you know, because it's not an oval, but it's like an oval with a, you know, more of a triangular front. So, the way they're shaped. So, you know, and he's developed little systems that he uses, and he's kind of a numbers guy that way, and I kind of got a gut instinct type of thing the way I do it. Old school. Old school. Yeah, old school. So, it works very well together, but usually I defer to the computer numbers that he comes up with. Do you? If I'm not sure, you know. Yeah. Well, that's like us and Mule Deer, when they're like 10 by 10, you pretty much shoot them. Exactly. But you can break them down and break down their frame, break down the extras and the mass. But what are you, you're talking about the numbers, like what are the magic numbers?

What do you want that first circumference, second, third? Well, you know, probably an old number that you've heard a lot is 777 on the bottom two mass and top mass. The two combined on top, if that's 21 a mass, well, you know, then on length, you got a 16 and a 5 or a 15 and a 6 as far as the prong and the length. And then you've got a 42 inch, 21 and 21. Yeah, that's an 84 inch. That's 84 inches. Yeah. You know, that's been our average over the 701 bucks. So, that would be what we would consider a shooter. You know, obviously, 82 is bookhead, and it's a shooter. We look for bigger, but you know, it depends on... Where you're at. Yeah, where are you in your hunt? Are you in the first 20 minutes, or are you in the last day? Or are you in a unit that hasn't killed a buck buck in 20 years, you know? Exactly. If there's an 82 or 3-inch, you probably ought to shoot it.

Talk a little bit about what you guys look for, like, in the position of the prong, you know, how far up the horn and how that changes the mass. Okay, the prong positioning is strictly, it's which book you're interested in, SCI or Boone and Crockett. The lower the prong in Boone and Crockett, typically the better off you are because you got a better first quarter and base, which are the two biggest mass measurements on the buck. So, that... Because you're starting to get that swelling on the prong, if it's lower, it's starting to swell a little bit on the second mass. Okay. Yeah, and then SCI, it's not easy, but it's easier to get three under the prong, because if it touches the prong anywhere on the second quarter, you go below to the biggest measurement, either the first quarter or the base. And B and C is always two below and two above, right? Is that right?

Well, most of the time, probably 98% of the time, that's correct. You can get three under the prong if the prong is so high that there's no prong swelling in the measurement. I see. So, that's the definition. Any prong swelling, it's going to go below, and you're moving to the third one above, I guess is what you're saying. Yeah, correct. Yeah, and then if the second quarter is anywhere on that prong, even the very bottom, if they consider that part of the prong, it goes above. Interesting. So, second, third quarter would be above. That explains, you know, for me especially, why you'll see some bucks, a wide discrepancy in an SCI and a B and C gross score.

Oh, yeah. That's why you see that four to six, I don't know, inches on a rare occasion, that's a big swing, when in reality, like a BNC gross and SCI gross typical mule deer should be the exact same without minor variations in the score, where in this, it can be a dramatically different number. Well, we had two bucks this year that were killed in Wyoming that were actually this year, one in Wyoming, one in Arizona, that were 87 and 87-2 net. So, Boone and Crockett, that's what they were. In SCI, one was 94-2 and the other was 93. Because you got three below. Yeah, instead of a four and a half or five inch second quarter, you got seven something. Yeah, crazy. So, you know, you can grow as many as three inches per side, so it can be six inches different. Yeah. But, you know, so it's, other than that particular thing, the books are virtually the same.

The prong is a little bit different because it's the upper outer edge of the prong for Boone and Crockett and the outer upper. So, they just switched the two. So, it's just slightly different on the prong. So, the prong should never be more than a half inch difference from, you know, book to book. Or rarely more than that. Well, let's jump into a big buck story or two. I mean, tell us about this giant Wyoming buck. We just kind of want to hear the story behind him. State record buck. Well, the one we took, I believe it was four or five years ago, we were kind of in an oil field area of Wyoming and southern Wyoming. You know, we pull up, and I see this buck way out a mile and a half. It's got giant prongs, so we're trying to find a way to get to it. And of course, we run into dead end after dead end, because these roads don't go anywhere.

And we see two hunters get out of their truck with rifles and spotting scopes, and they hike up to this one buck that had been chasing a doe back and forth. And we noticed the buck and knew it was pretty big. He had this white alkali all over his horn. So, it kind of didn't give you any depth perception of the horns. So, we didn't realize how big it was because of that, because we weren't close. Anyway, so we watched these guys look at this buck at 100 yards and turn around and go back, get in their truck, and leave. And on the guy in the backseat, he's 81 years old, he says, hey, if that buck's over 83, I'm shooting him. And we got closer, obviously. I said, oh yeah, he's over 83. So, guy gets out and shoots a buck. Well, I walk up on him, I'm like, holy cow. The buck was 91'4 net, 17 inches long. I'm like, what were they looking for? Wow. You know?

What did your gut, of course, Adam and I, there's so many questions, but what did your gut tell you when he asked you, is he over 83? I mean, did you feel like that was, that you were looking at a 90-incher? No. Absolutely not. I'd love to tell you, I was right on, but no, I just knew he was over 83, and that was what was in my head, because I didn't look for more than that. It was only like my second or third year up in Wyoming, and we weren't familiar with that unit. And, you know, I've never seen a 17-incher in Wyoming, so it was hard to picture that. But my goal was 83. That number was in my head, and I saw that and knew it was that. Get out and kill it. Yeah, exactly. So, I wasn't really nitpicking for a bigger buck. And so, I didn't spend any time and let it process. And, you know, that's what scouting is all about.

But see, we'd just seen the buck, saw these guys pass, and I thought, why are they passing this buck? He looks big enough. And, you know... You always wonder, I mean, my mind's thinking, I wonder if those two guys know that you killed that buck. Do they know it was a 91-inch or no? Do they ever know? Probably don't, but like they... No, absolutely not. They would just as soon not know, I'm sure. I've seen that dozens of times up there. I really have. Because guys are looking for a particular look. They want hooks, or they want width. You know, my son, for instance, is on Facebook and blogs and message boards all the time. And he keeps hearing this same statement said over and over that, oh, if it's big, you'll know it's big from different people. Not true. And then he'll throw a picture up. Well, how big is this one?

I'll say 80 inches. Well, it's a 91 inch buck. It's a live photo, so, you know, throwing his theory right out the window of, oh, you'll know it when you see it. That's not true with antelope. They hide it so well when they're heavy. Yeah. Well, and that's why we're having this discussion with you so heavy on scoring. It's like, when you see a big mule deer, you do know it, you know. When you see a big antelope, I mean... Seems like half the time you might know it, and the other half you're like, ah, what's that? Geez. You know? We took a buck two years ago in New Mexico, for instance. Uh, one of our governor's tag guys shot him. It was netted 90, so it grossed more than that, but it netted 90. And, uh, another fella that works in New Mexico found it. And he showed it to me. He said, I know you won't want to shoot him because I've showed you 10 bucks bigger than this.

He still can't understand, to this day, how that buck was that big because he just didn't see it. Yeah. And when I saw it, I said, oh, this is a good buck, and he thought I was nuts. And it was all about the mass. He thought that was the second ten bucks instead of the top buck. Well, that's just obviously a testament to your experience, to some extent, in a totally different way. But sheep can be a little bit like that, too. Some people come to hunt sheep with something in their mind, with a big twist of ram that flares out, which are almost non-existent in the desert sheep and, to some extent, Rocky Mountain Bighorn world. But they get it in their mind, and that's what they want, even though that usually means it's a four or five-year-old ram that hasn't broomed anything yet.

You know, and with antelope, you know, and I know growing up, I mean, there's people that love looking for white antelope. If you're ever born and bred hunting mule deer you grow up, you want those flared out 20 inch wide antelope, because that, hey, I killed a 20 incher, you know, and that means nothing on an antelope, other than that's a unique look, I guess, you know what I mean? So, it does, if you get somebody with something stuck in their mind, it's, they can overlook what, if they're really thinking they're wanting for a book antelope. You know, I had a chance last year, just got flat out lucky, and drew an antelope tag last year in Unit 10, And, you know, by no stretch of the imagination have I hunted antelope a lot. But, you know, knew that if I ever drew an Arizona antelope tag, I probably had something worthwhile to try to look over.

And, you know, I know you guys killed some giants there like you do everywhere else, but it would just simply cover the numbers. But I used a lot of your, I guess, you and Eli's stuff from your website and whatnot to give me some reference and things like that because you're right. I mean, I just about drove to Flagstaff a day or two before my hunt and got my tag in my son's name because I just was, I don't want to say unimpressed, but it was like I figured if I saw something, you know... Gaggerish.

Yeah, like you've killed before, Tony, so many times with, you know, Mike Gallo or any of these other guys, these monsters, like, alright, that's what I want. But I just felt like I was looking at nice antelope, which I was. Anyway, circumstances, you know, pulling him out of school and all that didn't last. So, I ended up going shooting opening day, shooting the best one that I thought I had found. And he was a little better than I thought. He was like 86 and 7 inches, and I'd found him earlier in the summer. In fact, Eli sent me pictures of the buck. You guys had seen him, too. And I'm like, yeah, you can't get anything by then. But you guys were after the 90-inchers, and I shot the 86. You were only after the 87-inchers.

Yeah, I know. The biggest buck in the state last year was in Unit 10. And we actually, I actually, we took it on the second buck. We killed a different one right at daybreak. And this buck, we called him Hooks, and at 1,000 yards, everybody thought he was 80 inches. There were guide after guide that passed him. But we had seen that buck close, so we knew that he was way bigger than that. And we killed him at 785 yards, and he blew me away, because I thought he was pushing 90, but I had no idea he was 93, because he never stood around very long. And clearly, you know, there were a bunch of mad guys. They came back to look at the buck, and they said, I can't believe it. I thought he was 80, and I just looked at him this morning. 13 inches, and it's not like a 200 versus a 213-inch mule deer. It's an 80 versus 93. Mice will be 50 inches difference in all reality.

Well, yeah, when you figure in Boone and Crockett, from the top to the bottom of the buck is 14 and a half inches. The number one buck to the bottom buck, and that includes like 3,500 animals. 82 to 96 and change. Yeah, wow. Yeah, so there you go. What kind of glass do you like to use? Like, tell me about your optics and your setup. You're judging these very minute, tiny measurements and whatnot compared to an elk or something, so glass would make an important difference. Are you using Dr. Optics or Kawa's or just the Swarovski's or Zeiss? I mean, what do you guys like to use? Well, actually, we've got... I used to use Swarovski. My son had a Lycoscope, and now he's moved on to the X Swarovski. It's Swarovski scope, which is great for video and stuff with the wide-angle lens.

And I've been using a Miopta, which is just as good as far as I'm concerned, other than that few minutes early and late. And I love the eyepiece of it. And of course, you know, with that being said, we both have BTXs coming from Swarovski. Oh, yeah. We've got them on order. And we've got the Highlander, you know, the Cowas, the fancy one, you know, the expensive one. And they're just heavy. I mean, other than that, they're fantastic. And we use, you know, Leica. Leica and the Sig Sauer rangefinders, and the new Leica, you know, goes out to a thousand yards, and we can dial our rifles right in.

You know, it's hard to range find out there in those wide open flats. I mean, on Adam, Adam had a little bit of that here and there on his hunt, but I mean, it's hard to range find them. Have you got a little, any tips on how to do that more effectively? I mean, you're looking across those wide open expanses and stuff. Yeah, probably learn how to guess well. Go with your gut again, huh? Yeah, I mean, literally, I've got a Vectronix who used to have to have Homeland Security to buy those, and now they actually have a commercial model. And I have ranged out to 4,800 plus yards. And with an antelope, the farthest reading I've ever got on an antelope was, I think, 1,110 yards. Yeah. And that was with the Vectronics, obviously with Leica and Zeiss and all the others. If you're lucky and the night conditions are good, you'll get a 700, maybe 800 yard reading.

So, you're probably going to be hitting ground or rocks or a vehicle or a barn or something other than that that'd tell you how far an animal is, at least for an antelope. Unfortunately, the only, yeah, if you got an area with scattered, you know, pinyon, juniper, If you're a carp or something like that, you're lucky because you might have a chance to hit that. But when it's flat, it's...and as you all know, it looks flat. You hit where the antelope's standing, or if you're hitting the ridge slightly behind it 125 yards, you're going to miss him. It's not even going to be close. Yeah, and that's why I tell guys the flattest shooting rifle that you bring the better. Obviously, we have 1,500-yard rifles, all three of us, and they all work, and we dial them in. And our longest shot to date is 1026, and we've got a 983, a bunch of 800 pluses.

So, you know, we're able to do it, but you have to have the right range. You've got to have the right range. Well, any other crazy experiences or notable stories that you've had out there in the field, You know, knocking down hundreds and hundreds of book bucks? Yeah, probably. I mean, they'll all come to me when we hang up. But no, you know, nothing that I can think of. That was just kind of a funny story. And the fact that it worked out for us made it even better. Yeah, of the 701, you said 400 and some odd were BNC net official books, but take it to the next level. You probably know, like how many 90 inchers or things like that have you taken in notable giants? We've taken 66 over 90 BNC and 114 over 90 SCI, including obviously the world record in both books. Which is? Tell us, which is? 96.4 BNC, and actually, my brother in 1986 in New Mexico killed the SCI world record at 99.7.

Couldn't quite hit 100, dang it. Well, an eighth, right? There's needed to be just a little drier that year. It was an eighth off. Geez. Wow, you think that'll ever happen? You think there's a hundred inches possible? I know we're talking probably SCI. Yeah, we took number two over in New Mexico in a different area, and he had a broken horn, so his one horn was 14.7, his other one was 16, and he grossed 99.2. So, had he had that tip, he had an inch and an inch. Yeah, a 16-inch, it would have been 100 inches. So, that shows you how important mass is. I mean, people might think it needed It would be a 21-inch or something ridiculous. Well, his second quarters were as big as most bases. I mean, they were like 6'1 and 6'3, above the prompts. 6 plus, that's unbelievable. So, yeah, sounds like that's possible. A triple-digit official antelope would be pretty...

not that a 90-inch is not special. Well, let's talk about that. What's your goals? You've met all your original goals, now what are the new goals? Yeah, you know, in fact, I just passed one of my goals of 190 inches a year ago, a year and a half ago. So, yeah, I kind of had to develop new goals, and that's one goal I would like to. I mean, my brother doesn't want to see me do it, but I'd like to break the SCI world record. Yeah, that's about all else that's left for you, is a 100-incher official, I guess, is something. Yeah, that would be sweet. And maybe even break the Boone and Crockett record again. I don't know if that's entirely possible, but maybe. That's right, Buck. Well, tell us about Eli a little bit. How old is he? When did he start, you know, and get major involvement?

Eli's 36, and he pretty much started when he was six and seven. Every birthday, I said, what do you want to do? He says, take me antelope scouting. Yeah. And not camping, not to the toy store, but taking the antelope scouting. So, that's kind of how he was. Probably the only kid in the United States that I know that probably ever said that. Yeah, might be. Might be. Well, that's what he is. Chip off the old block, sounds like. I had a guide get hurt back when he was, I don't know, 16 or 18 or whatever it was. I got an emergency 10-day guide's license that they allowed in New Mexico, and that's kind of how he started. And he killed, I think, one of the biggest bucks that year. We had a tough area. Yeah. I think he killed one close to 84 with his client. Yeah, crazy. And that was kind of how he started, and he's just been getting better and better and better.

And him and Dave Brown, my other guide, there's just three of us, and Dave's been with us for 19 years, and as good as they get. So, these two guys will be running the show before too long. Yeah, well, maybe not. You got plenty of years left. That's a good thing about antelope is, I think you're saying, was that Wyoming client, was he 80 years old, 80, 81? Yeah, well, that's why I... I mean, you can hunt antelope when you're... I mean, you can pull the trigger still. You can still hunt antelope most of the time. Well, you asked me what drew me to them, and other than the other things I said, I thought to myself, well, this is something I can do when I get really old. Well, I'm almost there.

Well, it's a lot of experience, and you know, we sure appreciate you taking time today, and what a treat it is for us to learn from one of the best there ever has been, As far as killing giant antelope and making a livelihood out of it, never, you know, just almost didn't dream that a guy could make a full-on, you know, livelihood for, geez, decades, killing big antelope. Yeah, we had 44 hunters last year, one of our bigger years. I mean, we've had two or three years of that kind of number, and it's a lot of work. Like I say, it's pretty much year-round for us now. The hunting isn't, but everything Everything else is. Yeah, it takes a lot to do it full-time, and that's great. Well, anything else you want to leave us with as we shut this thing down? Well, you know, if a guy doesn't want to hire us or talk to us, he can always learn from our two videos that we have out.

And, you know, one is, it sizes everything one, and sizes everything two. Got, I think, 17 kills on the second one of 90-inch bucks or bigger. Wow. And the first one, I do a 30-minute field judging seminar in it. And pretty much a lot of that stuff, I probably couldn't quote you today, because, you know, you don't religiously do it On every buck, you tend to forget some of the important things. The videos, sometimes I have to look at it to refresh my brain. Yeah. Well, good. And how can people get a hold of those, Tony? On our website, pronghornguideservice.com. Okay. And they can order it through there, and Sportsman's Warehouse used to carry it, Cabela's. Okay. All right. Well, we sure appreciate you taking time. You know, we've learned a lot, and God, what a treat it was. So, really appreciate you. Thanks a lot, and wish you a great year, you guys.

This summer kicks in here. A lot of the draw results. I know Arizona and New Mexico are out, and Wyoming's yet to come. So, hope you guys have a great year, and we look forward to seeing a bunch of giant photos from you later in the fall. Well, cool. I appreciate it, and it was fun. We'll get you some big photos of big bucks this year. Sounds great. Yeah, we just want to close down. We really appreciate Under Armour and being able to sponsor this podcast and work with us on it. And, well, we'll go from there. Looking forward to putting our hands on some more big antelope. Alrighty, thank you. Alright, thanks Tony. Okay, bye-bye.