EP 239: Our Take on Points Systems. Keeping the Glass Half Full

watching the world change right before our eyes what's the perfect point system all right i like point systems um i don't like a hundred percent preference point system like colorado anything to do with western big game welcome to the epic outdoors podcast powered by under armor hey everybody jason carter adam brownson chris peterson coming at you from southern utah chris nice to have you back john was at the keyboard it was a little odd i'm not gonna lie we hope it came i'm one of the older we well the older we get we don't like change right i hit publish so i gotta listen to it and make sure everything is okay yeah you had to probably a little late for that you had to add the front and back and do the chris you know put the chris touch on it but geez it just it's just different i don't like different difference kind of like you know brushing your teeth with someone

else's toothbrush no it's not that's gross come on where did you get that just came into my head anyway i've never done that so while we're on the subject of chris real quick let's just throw a little shout out chris you've got a lot of music out there where can they find you oh anywhere you find music spotify itunes apple music pretty much all that how about the country festival and fair time are you got it is you're moving you're gonna be around the west yeah some stuff up in montana and wyoming you're keeping your beard well i think it's gonna come out i still haven't found my clippers whoa oh we moved all our house hey as the immortal words of a good friend of ours they make more clippers every day yeah that's what my wife told me this morning she's like i think it's time just to buy some clippers what are you doing just taking scissors to it every week and just trimming it kind

no i so i'd every once in a while when it got real bad i'd go to my mom's house and borrow some clippers but i can't find mine hey moms are good for the rest of your life yeah you know what i mean they always want a mother hen you forever yeah just had mother's day a week or two ago hopefully everybody treated mama right well yeah something season's coming and you want to treat mama right prior that's right hey bronson i like it i like where you're headed with that um but moving right along let's let's so there was some right along what do you mean there's a father's day's coming up yeah let's talk about something important uh no i wasn't thinking that but you know there's been a lot of so today you know wyoming elk draw results came out we've had a lot of jeez a lot of opportunities to be happy but but we aren't well you you're not no why are you so mad let's let's have a little

counseling session no i'm not really mad i'm just uh let's just think about some things that might help adam as he goes ahead and tells us this terrible story i have a no terrible story my life is great i it i i'm proud of being american and i am have a very happy life but sometimes you want more in the form of tags that's what i'm talking about and i have i think and didn't you have to change some flights which just makes you onry yeah and that was just fresh like 20 30 minutes ago but think about this you're able to fly you know that's right i don't have to some good things i don't have to ride sometimes ride a horse to alaska i don't have to do that sometimes adam and i have to check each other a little bit and go okay those are those are some good problems to have it could be a lot worse that's right right so speaking of which let's let's talk about uh kind of that

subject we were talking about a little bit which part of it well being angry no the world is an angry place right okay new mexico's angry they want to cut us out of a bunch you know some non-resident tags uh wyoming's angry they want to cut us out colorado's angry they want to cut us out you know you know every state we've talked about it a lot on the podcast the states seems like one little one or two states started talking and now everybody feels like they're open and every program within their whole system i read today that somewhere back east there's some elephant in a zoo in a one acre zoo well there's being there there's a group suing to to contend that that elephant has feelings like a person and that they should be treated as a person and referred released from from prison and it's on the front page of our salt lake news come on nope i said i read it today because

anyway you know what would make you happier is to watch less news that's right i don't watch it but i do jump on there to watch the weather because i pray that it's going to rain and when you go to the home page what do you see you see the home page well whatever's really important like elephants i need to refresh it get it right onto the weather only and bypass it all right so but you're back to your point man uh there's a lot of angst and we're not talking about i mean it's probably worldwide but man there's a lot of whether it's covid frenzy stuff that was caused by that people you know it's just a there's a lot of people were locked in their house and told what to do and told what they could and couldn't do and and and weren't we a little bit anxious about that chris were you anxious when they were trying to keep you from going out and enjoying the hills on

your horse yeah nobody should leave don't gas up whatever it was uh trying times right trying times just seems like yeah the last two years that's been when this has really hit the next level and it's time to look at the glass half full but yes and i don't know everybody's in a different situation in life but man try to look at the glass half full because things usually can be worse and your neighbor probably isn't as bad as you think he is well i don't know maybe not but maybe i'm talking in generalities i'm not pretending to know everybody's crazy hey hey did you really have to bring that up i didn't bring it up for your benefit i'm talking to our listeners if that hit home maybe we should tap out on this topic and move along oh geez i've got a dandy go ahead i just read this actual headline court must decide if an elephant is a person well what we have is people are people

are saying that they're cats and dogs and we're putting litter boxes in schools schools in school bathrooms so i would say if they're cats that elephant's probably human and this goes back to what we're talking about it goes back to it every faction every faction of whatever ideology or what you're thinking is gains traction and people have this platform it's the world that you got social media now you don't and it's just people are venting epically so i just want to invite people out there to intentional parent and when you see this going on tell your kid it's not normal and that the the i don't even want to say the word biden so i'm not going to say the word biden but that this air this time frame time in history isn't normal and it's okay to stand there for what's right how about that huh i like it you like it yep you're done with it well it's over yeah i

don't you don't want to talk about litter boxes no okay they're stinky chris do you have anything to god let's move on but anyway having said all of this we've got fires and crazy places new mexico's going to burn down we got forest service closures bronson till december 31st basically the northern half of the state on forest service you're not they're closed as of tomorrow may 19th the blm gila who knows what else is next it's too dry there's a whole lot coming down the pipe for what that's going to mean for hunters with tags some very valid issues or you know whatever the upside is the upside okay we're going to look at this half full it's going to teach them a lesson for screwing around with the non-terrorism quotas how about that well you're thinking that that's a direct result well i just i've got i'm a little anxious over over them wanting to change a bunch of things and just

watching watching the world uh change right before our eyes especially you know when it deals to hunting down there um the positive side is is you know is uh okay you know i've got an idea for the day for the rest of the day what because we didn't really have a firm outline today yeah well as but but let's go through something let's go through a wish list and we'll go state by state if we were king of utah king of new mexico whatever okay what would we change but one thing i want to change one thing i okay but let's start the first thing in every state since we get a lick of glass half full is a positive in the state what do you like about california i like it california well well hey dude i like the beaches right when i went down we went we went on a family little vacation years ago and it was awesome it was awesome okay i'm a dodgers and lakers fan but

we're talking before we start about their sports teams and beaches before we start what i would like what i would like if i were king for a moment is just that the states appreciate the non-resident yeah and we could have come prepared here we realize we're a non-resident in 90 percent of the states and we live in one so are you whoever's listening that's right so we understand that non-residents should not dictate policy procedure all that in every state but we also have to point out and if we need to we will and shall and can and easily do point out the percentage of non-residents uh of the budget in these states that come from non-residents it's almost in every case the majority it's like 70 to 75 percent no i i think in large part it's i'm hearing 72 to 78 percent in and i've got some states you know we're friends with some of these

guys and they won't tell me and and i think the only reason we're talking about that is some of these states and this is actually how i feel are on the razor's edge in my mind of losing an enormous amount of income by dis by alienating non-residents and so if you keep it too expensive and the odds are so limited it's just like you playing the potter power ball now there may be some i play it every time i go to get gas okay well i don't because what are your odds for the power ball jason million two two to five ten two hundred million whatever 200 million okay so do you feel like you got a chance no okay so i don't play it and that's a that's on the extreme but my point same being if you're sending out money for you and your kids in these states and that cost keeps going up and the pie keeps shrinking of what you can even draw pretty soon it's like it's is it worth

continuing or do you just take that money and say hey i'm going to go somewhere i can actually buy something with that money and go and i feel really good about our membership and the tags we've drawn utah alone we drew a large portion of the one non-resident tag available in a lot of different hunts the special hunts in the state how awesome is that it's pretty awesome to be a part of having said that bronson they raise desert sheep tags and we cut non-resident quotas oh yeah and i'm not saying you i'm just saying let's start with it's an oversight it's an oversight we bring it to their attention they're like oh yeah i guess your tags are in the 70s and they're only given five tags went up in units and you cut non-resident tags and the reason why they got away with it is because there is no real formula yeah there's no there's no law and rule in utah that allocates any percentage to

non-residents no they try to adhere about about 10 but there's nothing that holds them to us therefore there's no structure on the how a formula spits out the tag just like new mexico 84 10 and 6 there's an actual formula on daryl can handle that spits out there is but they're wanting to do it unit by unit or hunt by hunt let's call it on sheep and that's and that's when we are looking at not getting any non-resident tags and then they're going to lose some revenue oh yeah and i and three thousand three thousand a pop and yeah and we're talking a few fees the same thing in wyoming when you when you cut it down and and you end up in a random situation with one or two tags or whatever for non-residents total you're going to lose some revenue and and and and again it's not all about revenue i hate that hunting is about revenue it's not but it is and these agencies are

and if your state makes 60 to 75 percent of its revenue or 70 or 75 or eight yeah from non-residents and that cuts dramatically you're the ones that are going to have to front the bills or is it and they should and they should honestly resident tags there's some states that are 30 bucks still 35 bucks honestly we're what what are you talking about like raise raise your rates you know colorado raises them every single year or potentially could based on a on a consumer price index in the denver post that's right every day that's right it's the weirdest that's right it is weird but they don't have to have this continuing conversation every year a little bit yeah we've had them the same price for 10 years why why'd you have that let's let's fix that i i think you should raise them uh you know i don't like raised fees but at the same time you're gonna have to front some of

the you know the brunt of the the cost on some of these things if you're going to change non-residents and a lot of residents when you fish initially hear that you might say oh great we're going to get more tags and that is true there is truth to that and we are advocates of residents getting but how many more bronson what how many more how many more tags are the residents going to get you're right we're talking on the sheep on the moose sheep goat and bison in wyoming it's not that wyoming gives over-the-counter general and a finite number on non-residents and they're bursting at the seams on the general elk why why why how many more can you give a resident they get them over the counter they already get them right give them to get make them start killing cows like you know they kill does back east or whatever you know to help with car collisions i i don't know i'm just saying

you know let's say you really non-residents are getting too much okay you take you take five percent from us two percent five percent ten percent to make it to make it equitable or whatever to make it seem more fair what did you really gain you didn't change the resident what are you going to gain anything what are you going to gain okay you're going to get some more tags but your agency may go broke and you are the one that's going to be the one fitting the bill what i find interesting wyoming guys they hate utah artists they call them utah right they hate them they hate the utah license place at the trailheads they're over the counter that's right they're over the counter and we're very finite in region g for example that's a prime example um so just interesting uh so i wanted to i just wanted to start it off with let's just appreciate the non-resident us too here in utah

let's just appreciate the non-resident a little bit yeah we're all non-resident somewhere and i realize we're non-residents more places than we are residents so it might come across wow you're just fighting for the non-resident way well hey in some regards we are but in some regards there has to be a balance and and uh what what i think jason and i have talked about this very frankly you may have picked up about uh about it in the magazine even the last year till we're getting a lot more brutally honest on our takes on some of these states in every month when we produce a new magazine meaning it's not all butterflies and rainbows carter loves when i say that it's it's easy to just to talk about how you apply in a state and say yeah apply apply if you get lucky give us a call and that can roll off your tongue but it's getting a lot more we're we're trying to we're

pointing out a lot more of the increasing in cost and it's no longer justifiable to apply and it's hard hard to even start applying all of those types of things and that's i guess the point that we're getting i think there's some some serious uh people are gonna have to really look at their application dollars moving forward even more so as pies are shrinking tag fees and application fees and hunting license non-refundable hunting licenses go up i'm into nevada over a grand yeah i love i love nevada and i'll never quit you get four or five people committed with 10 plus points in about in a family yeah you're in it 200 plus you gotta really start thinking about some things and i think something that could help them would be go to two choices instead of five valid choices help it give us something give us better drawing odds you know what i mean which would help the residents too all

right so are we playing this game we're playing should we just start on the left coast and go down and bark east the left yeah just get rid of them quickly what do we what's name a positive i don't know why we have to start there okay well let's name a positive where do you want to start texas everything's bigger down there what do you want to start with they have one desert let's start with california just trying to think of something positive so go first okay the positive the thing i like about california is they get their dry results out in like 10 days they're one of those things and hey i want to use them as an example and nevada to these other states to get with the program some of these other states that take two three four months you're 100 right get give if california can get their dry results out in 10 to 14 days you just pound at the table people heard that yeah

all right that's because my drink's empty that's only the reason you heard rattle it's about dry okay i've got mine in my hands but that's what i like but if i was if i was a king i'd give a hey you give 200 and something antelope tags in the state and only one can go to a non-resident you give only up to one elk and that includes a little bit of a bone okay so that's the you're jumping into the negative go ahead keep on that's all that's all well what i like i don't even hey i don't even apply there and i will say that what i like i don't think it's worth the cost of admission what i like is they run the random draw first and so on sheep you have a chance hey what i hate game what i hate is the drawing odds but another thing that i like is they get big sheep dude they do and california is you know impressive some of the elk we've obviously you go look at our magazine

that roosevelt's like to die for yeah and we got a video of it uh you know in somebody's back or trashing the trashing somebody's amazing little flower bush just crushing it you know and a collared cow off and so there's some weird stuff the hunter in there he i can't remember his name but he talked about the locals all thanked him for killing the elk because he was a trasher yeah it's a trasher lilac bushes there's some pretty cool stuff in in california and there there's some undiscovered how about the whites years ago yeah hey oh we got 400 sheep there wow never knew that there's places there's other places like it yeah there is there is and so there's an example of mainly for budgetary reasons they weren't flying surveys they didn't even know until you get a few hikers whoever start telling hey we're seeing a bunch of sheep over one other thing i hate you have to

request a refund for like the deer tag remember you have to request it why why why do you have to request it you so people that don't request it and you lose track right we're all busy you've got a lot of businessmen we're talking to that are members and you're busy if you don't request it you're donating it and they charge you the resident uh or the deer permit fee cost and you only get the difference of that in a resident cost but you got to request them for that you got to ask them for that yeah i think it's wrong yeah you know i mean all right so where else would you let's go up the coast of oregon what do you mean i'm getting some out of the way i struggle i struggle with the out gotta be positive okay positive well we've killed a sheep there oh yeah random i like and i like the random sometimes however i was talking so let's just say we like the random sheep okay great i like the

random goat whatever let's just but i was talking to a very good client of ours and he's like you know everybody's complaining about point systems and but utah has a random and utah has a point system right and the random and the point system you know helps win the random but he says everybody wants to do away with the point system do away with it and have your neighbor draw five times in a row and you don't draw for the next 30 years nor are you getting any closer ever to say ever so there is there you do have to be careful what you wish for point systems go away tag quotas go each things change whatever are you really happy maybe when we're all done with this little western state wrap-up we can talk about the perfect point system well okay so put that on your skit put that on your little yellow sticky

the and so and so why did i lose my train of thought so while so oregon yes so anyway they do have they do have uh the random and you and i both sheep and goat nuts frankly but what i okay so back to i got it i got it okay my theory is just that the the millennial age or plus or minus right plus plus five years minus 10 years whatever the millennial age ish well you define a millennial i don't know what it is actually how old are you if you're a millennial exact like what is that does that mean you're born like 30 to 40 chris i think i think something like the baby boomers you're not a baby you think it would mean if you're born in 2000 or later that's the new millennium but that's not that's not 22 years old it's a more like it's older yeah so anyway but i think it's gratifying now and you and i have 20 25 plus points in some places it's taken us 25 years to get to there okay

but they're looking at it saying where's my chance immediate gratification i have a cell phone i can get people to reply on text immediately i get my emails immediately i want my tags immediately i don't want to wait 25 years like they waited but they don't think about that we waited 25 they just want it and they're mad and they're angry and the point systems don't work and it's tougher than ever and that's true we've been waiting 20 25 years i'm just saying you know we we we played the game for a long time and and so anyway having said that there's some points i i like idaho i like some of these randoms and you and i both partaken in the random up there in oregon the the what i don't like i don't like the drawing odds i don't like the very three to five limited three to five on the non-resist

and then splitting the quotas with outfitters i if you want to hire an outfitter go hire one if an outfitter does an amazing job he's gonna get he's gonna be busy if he doesn't do a great job he might not be so busy but that's the same thing with a doctor or a guy repairman on your truck or whatever it's just what i don't in general i have a problem with those two and hey i'm a you've been a guy in the past i'm one i i don't like the it's almost like subsidy it's almost like subsidy hey we're gonna keep your business here's tags for you so you can and i don't want to say it's a democrat subsidy but it just feels subsidized and it is same thing with like the wilderness in wyoming but we'll go to wyoming so let's stay in oregon just the outfitter tags some of those some of those bronson we don't

have a single tag in a draw well it's because you give five percent of the deer and antel or deer and elk tags and then of that half of them can go to outfitters so if there's 20 tags you get a one tag every other year in the draw and at times the outfitter doesn't sell it it goes back in the draw not on the good ones there's right but they're always taken so anyway um having said that i agree they have some amazing mule deer genetics i cannot believe positive positive i can't believe the number of 200 inch deer that are taken in oregon that people don't even hear despite their managed and despite their management philosophy yeah i'm shocked i i'm i'm blown away every year and and of course when you when we talk about it it's it's somewhat dismal because the regular draws are dismal they they don't produce but the private land up there you know harbors some absolute monsters

on easy to draw tags but you you're never going to get on them just saying and and for the money you spend for a hunting license it's much more expensive now than it used to be back when we drew like 74 dollar hunting license plus eight dollar app but bronson doubling more of that so wages so so yes we were broke however um if you had the compelling what did you make what did you make yearly salary when you drew i don't know well let's kick it back to 2000 you were paying me i wasn't oh i wasn't okay it was the company somebody else in your family yeah so but when i drew 2004 me me too i'm saying 30 35k oh yeah bro that's what i started that's not my wife too she brought in 18 or something like that teaching you know doing something anyway i'm just saying there there was tough times then and we and we found the money to apply if you if they had more deer elk and antelope

and it's nice to have random sheep and goat tags the odds are still pretty tough but if they had more the biggest problem i have is the cost to tag availability and that goes back to the three and five percent deer elk and antelope it is out of whack with what what you got to pay to even play the game so anyway having said all that i do kind of like i do kind of like organ it's just a long drive yeah i mean and we we about froze to death on your sheep hunt dude that was september and it was cold i remember laying in the bed of the truck remember i had the double forwarder rack and we were sleeping under it i have a freaking froze to death like a cocoon what you really want to go to washington next jeez no okay i'm just gonna say the positive what's the positive and then i'll say a quick negative and then the positive um they've got they've got good quality they got you know you can

they got clam clam season clam digging yeah i always i always get the razor clam emails from them i don't even i mean i've seen a pit i had to look them up once so i knew what they were i can't think the problem i have positive with the elk and deer they got a few big animals as non-resist for elk and deer you have to buy a general hunting uh a general elk and deer tag you're talking four or five hundred bucks a piece to even play the deer and elk draw i don't like that i think that's we don't even do the general in states that are close to us at times let alone washington yeah so anyway everybody up there can i know you're laughing say all right stay out okay we are so we are and that's 110 for every sheep every goat every moose application you know what i mean and your odds are one in 2000 or one in whatever i mean go look 25 six plus years squared it's all right let's move on

to idaho well let's just start moving i've got to stay next to them just because what i like what i like about idaho is i like the random draw at times have have i drawn amazing tags i've drawn a couple mid mid to upper tier yeah probably not lower the frustrating thing i mean it going back to the choices i mean one valid choice so sometimes like i drew like a 42 tag for deer you know and i killed like a 32 inch weak fork buck big old freaking nice eye guards chris you were with me on that one that was cold we froze the trailer it was cold we froze the trailers rock solid remember that yeah it was your water water negative digits for sure i'm in the middle of nowhere hey those are good times but anyway um never have drawn like a 45 bin at mountains or you know for deer or 54 elk and i applied for 54 pretty religiously um never drawn you know sheep goat i have drawn moose how about that

november season yeah i was on a dare pretty much we got dare much and yeah you know and i drew and you didn't and you know what's great is i got i quenched that was 2007 and i got to tag along with jason and quenched my thirst for hunting shiraz shiraz no you do you got max points in montana and you continue to apply it's the only place i do in other words that did it for me yeah i was i i touched one that one hey we were young and aggressive and this moose quarter's freaking heavy dude huh yeah geez anyway so i don't know i like i like the randomness and and it's hard back a minute ago when i said hey what's the perfect point system i like that states are different i really do i like that there's some that there's predictability and i like some like idaho that when you have a late application period or if you decide to do sheep it's completely random you've got as good a chance

as anybody for the first time applying i like that about idaho because i mainly use idaho as a i'll call it a secondary i never base my plans around idaho so i go as aggressive or less aggressive based on what i would have in my schedule this year i'm going to be playing in idaho i did i skipped the sheep because i'm going to be gone for most of the sheep seasons do you like the fact that if you do sheep or goat yeah or moose you can't do anything else in the state i don't mind it from an odd standpoint i think for the moose sheep and goat you know obviously the resident odds are the best of any state anywhere period it's not even up for debate the resident sheep moose and goat that's true non-residents wait wait wait wait what about otc montana sheep well that's not an odd that is you write the check and you go on she's think you need to be 100 transparent well go ahead

so i i like it for that i what i don't like about it it's gotten more expensive we've we've done the math if you apply if you buy a hunting license what really frustrates me is they raised our rates because they went to caps non-resident caps yeah their general otc with caps yeah for non-resident and so because they they restricted us they raised our rates like up through the roof and didn't touch residents yeah if you apply for deer and deer and elk buy their hunting license applying for deer elk you're going to pay 225 ish dollars and don't get any points for it if you add sheep to that that you you front the tag fee they keep your convenience fee off it it's like 325 bucks and you don't get a point so it's the one thing i don't like is i think their costs have greatly outpaced maybe what their

non-resident costs the risk we but the residents are cheaper and cheaper than free that's what i'm saying i mean and i just think and they're always complaining about budgets raise the always raise the residents like they always are like they they there's a lot of room there to bring their tags up to what they're really worth i love that you get a hunt wolves and i don't i love it we've all been up there it's a thrill it's a rush it's added to my wolf setup it's enriched my life that those hunts they have tell me they haven't changed your life i take pride and kill it it's a trophy like it i it's but what's amazing is uh i wouldn't they're hunting them very aggressive there's bounties oh yeah and and you know they're actually seems like the elk are yeah the elk are doing better they're getting

input um back on the ground yeah they are it's a return they're getting a return and it does feel like there's i'm making it we're making some headway um but yeah we like idaho it's treated us well we've hunted it hard and a little bit on the high side that's my only that's my biggest complaint getting getting up there in tag or uh not tag fees application non-refundable application fees for what you get and no points yeah yeah i and i just i i just think that you know the the otc with caps i i just i don't know i guess i don't know why it rubs me just rubs me a little bit and then yeah you're still you mean because you're still selling residence unlimited oh yeah it just you know and for not and for next to nothing and i'm not saying that everybody should be gouged just keep up the times that's all your your wages have increased they just have and so anyway but take it out on

the non-res and then don't appreciate them that's fine whatever so all right let's move right along which state we have nevada let's try nevada i love nevada yeah i do what do you love about it um just the memories you love the past chris we've got good memories chris has killed a freaking giant don't isn't the memories like that's what's the best thing about them when you get a tag in nevada they don't manage for much average then in a few places you could say for deer they average a little bit more for opportunity and average but they have scarcer resources because it's drier more scarce how's that resources whatever fewer resources i don't know they keep going they have to try to make more with less that's another what i like is jack he said it best two years ago on a podcast he said we like to produce a quality product and the customer the hunter is our customer

i like that mentality i think he actually kind of revolutionized that a little bit it seems like a lot of the states are taking on a little bit more of they're a customer not somebody we're just out to catch poaching or on some little tweaky little weird law and make an example out of them it has been state pitted against hunter a bit and they have feels like been the trendsetter on that and case in point their results their deadline was the 10th of may that that was like i don't know a few days ago their results are the 20th of may at 6 p.m they they moved it up from midnight madness to 6 p.m on a friday to make it happy let the adventure begin you know and they want it they want to be a barbecue now what other state name another state that care gives two crap beep chris at the beep right there craps craps about that no i can't think of one they don't care

about barbecues they don't care about barbecues also go apply for nevada oh and their system compared to some of the other states smooth and if you mess up or want to change your mind free free what i what i can't get over is all the other states when you apply okay you apply let's say the deadline's june 1st i'm making that up and you apply may 1st but you're something changes or you made a mistake and you can't change that but if you're a procrastinator you can apply your application on june 1st and you're fine why can't from may 1st to june 1st you change your freaking application the application period is open you like every state should be that you like to plug and play it's not like it's all on paper anymore no it's true you're not going to have to pull him again again it's because they hate us it feels like the states hate us those states hate us that's right they not

just non-residents they just hate hey laughter if you let it feels like they hate happy if you let anybody apply up until a certain date you should be able to amend your application up until that day that's just this day and age of computers and in and out and you check it and you're don't even check out you just switch what's wrong with that how hard is it i get everything how about you how about utah oh paper is how about utah being set in stone so early so early yeah and and you know what's nice is if you're gonna if you're gonna have us and they're looking at changing it and we'll see how big of a difference it makes but if you're gonna you know have it to where the draw results come out middle to end of may whatever you know for any state we're talking about then bring it up your point is is start let us apply open up the app period april 1 or april 15 or whatever don't a don't

hold on to our money or make us front the money so you know in some states or whatever so early and and then also there's planning that takes place and so some states come out early and if you drop arizona elk or whatever it might make a difference on what i apply in other states right and so that's your point is no matter what utah is going to be somewhat late because of the quota setting and different things but don't be so early because we've got other states we're working with too it's such a pet peeve for me it's the 21st century century like chris said there's almost no i want to say no paper apps there i'm going off memory it's over the era paper apps is over they don't have to name a paper app you put in i don't okay you can't i can't to my knowledge i can't somewhere maybe somewhere yeah well i'm talking a state funded thing so we if states can turn their draws around

and i know it's going to be hey well we we have a lot here's our numbers in colorado here's our numbers in utah we have way more apps to process there is some truth to that i don't i'm not pretending that hey california's numbers then get out 10 days or nevada's get out 10 days so should everybody else i'm not that naive to think that that's the case but it is a push of a button it is electronic it is you know number rankings you can do a lot better you can do a lot better montana's quick so the one thing i okay so nevada the one thing but but they are expensive and we talked about that but adam by choice my kids are really the i mean the non-resident hunting license fee for a kid 15 bucks oh yeah but then once they hit 18 you've you're gonna swallow hard right but you don't have to buy it no you can have them in the draw they don't enter them with their six to eight

points or however many they've accumulated from 12 to 18 and six points whatever that is and you may or may not have done that i may or may not have done that i'm just saying i want my kids in uh but at times it's maybe not worth it right and so you get they got a lot of add-ons you can add piw the silver states and i know i cannot do those if i don't you cannot do them those are just opportunities that's right but you cannot do them did you do yeah i did we have me too yeah and but it's by choice so we get mad ah they got a grand of my money but it was by choice i mean i i could have you know streamlined my app a bit and save some money i i don't like and this has nothing to do with the game and fish or department of wildlife is nevada can be very volatile from year to year in the mule deer world i don't like the volatility it's it's god bronson like it's an act of god

that they're in such a drought it's it's irreparable drought but i'm just talking i don't like the volatility from year to year and mule deer hunting in about i don't like it if that's and you know what's amazing you know what trail cameras did for us prove prove it oh yeah it proved the drought you got specific deer a torn ear whatever you know you got deer 200 to 210 the next year he's like 160 same thing there's like 10 deer on one water you know he's the buck split air blind in one eye and he's 160 that's right and so it proved the effect that drought can have over there and and it's and it's drought sensitive and we're in a drought and it's it's no fun right and that's what i'm talking about with memories like we know when the good years are there we're glad we have the points because when there's a good year out there it's unbelievable so um next carter where do you want to go

we're working east you pick um might as well do our zone because i don't want to do utah yeah how about that arizona what do you like the positives is i would i would say similar to nevada for the most part if you draw a tag in arizona it is it is a great tag now there's a very few exceptions but when it comes to antelope off the charts yeah it's like drawing a sheep tag in terms of odds but hey let's see you killed an 87 inch and you've killed a 350s bull in about 45 minutes yeah thanks arizona you've killed some yeah and deer i'm waiting for my time but hey you killed a 270 plus but how about well it what i what i don't like what i don't like is i don't draw often enough no that is the downside the odds are worse than like nevada has a collective compared to arizona when i would say quality mule deer tags they're much lower in arizona the the ceiling is way higher

the some of the strip kaibab northern stuff is awesome but collectively that's that's what a thousand tags or less um elk you've got the option to go november i don't normally do that in november i'm either going to go arch i'm usually going archery and they're tough to get but they have options that's the thing that we call them skews yeah you know what i mean it spreads everybody out two two choices really matter you mean like the november if you want to archery hunt elk in november you mean stuff like that why'd you go there well yeah every time i say it i didn't like it i didn't i didn't enjoy it and we got guys that apply for it because i did it i think that the fact you went there once you're hiding something well and no there was big trust me he's not applied i hear about it i share an office nerve and he's not going back sometimes you can't make it happen

and that one was a little bit different i do think there's opportunities out here but anyway and i chose to hunt in an area that was a little bit tougher i mean i've hunted coos deer there and i thought this would be a great archery hunt and it was but i didn't go there i should have and it's within the same unit i'm just saying like you know i chose because i wanted to hunt the biggest bulls in the end the biggest bulls were not stockable with the bone all right let's talk about so that's the pluses let there's a let's talk about desert sheep i mean hey that's awesome it is great if you can draw hey you've drawn one i've had another one of my good friends have drawn recently in the last three years yeah but let's talk about some problems okay the fact that they're drawing they're one of the states that you apply and if you screw up you're done and luckily they added the point guard

and that's yeah and they love point guard so much they doubled it yeah they doubled down ten dollars now or 25 so to me that's a that's it's a crock you know the fact that you can't change it but yeah we'll charge you if you if you if you thought to pay that beforehand you know what i find interesting other thing is you've got to log in you've got to check out for deer and log back and check out and go back and do your next species and they've they're prone to making 14 different uh id numbers for you in accounts because you know you one into one index will pull you up and they'll get you in the draw now you've got two or three accounts about you buy a hunting license but one the left hand doesn't talk to the right and you have to go re-plug in the number it'll pull in a number there but what

you don't know is that that number's already expired just i mean i mean it's just an archaic system and we're being brutally honest but you point to one person one that likes me call me call us email us email chris at uh epic outdoors.com tell them that you're you're happy now i'm not talking about you drew tags from arizona i'm talking about the application process of applying you and your family it goes back to paper applications in front of the fees like colorado used to do it keeps people out there's some people that didn't apply in arizona because the system is so terrible it doesn't keep them out it just makes you doesn't you sit down with a family of five and have to check out for two species eats and buy their license all hand it's a you need no it's an afternoon it's an afternoon bronson you and i both did try managing application service where you do a lot more people than that

and it becomes luckily we got good gals and we do they crank it but they have a lot of room to upgrade their draw process i'm just going to leave it at that i agree i agree 100 and so yeah it's not not customer friendly that let's sum it up the word not customer probably the worst you know one of the top three and they don't they don't they they just act like they don't care uh but having said that um they are kind of enjoying some of these new little skews they're you know they're enjoying those those little those little tags on the end and a few little revenue generators well and that came from one of those and why but why do you have that because you your budgets are stressed and and it goes back to just to just to just appreciate people to appreciate the non-resident we don't take that much down there and make it easier for us we'll keep playing you'll

get more money you'll get more money if it's easy if it's easy i back back to nevada i mean these guys are proactive they they want to do the button same as last year as easy and as fast as you can right just but if you get through one or two people in arizona you might just go wow i don't have nice that that son of mine doesn't care about arizona that oh he's happy doing what we've got going and we're gonna leave it at that they're 160 dollar license fee and 15 per speech it's pretty easy especially in this this world everything is you want something right now right you want to sit down and check out like when i have to buy anything online if it's too complicated i start checking out well i mean people are knee-jerk like what chris is saying like when you're ready to buy something you're willing

to buy at this moment but if you talk to me tomorrow i might change well and if it takes me 10 hours to give you my money yeah that i worked hard for yeah i might think twice twice about it well i said i'm checking out i mean i'm really i'm checking out i'm leaving the website not checking out and buying it so that was right wrong choice yeah i mean you're checking you're i'm checking they know giving up i'm giving up i'm tapping i'm tapping your hands i'm tapping out yeah i'm putting another tab and i'm doing the same google search for the thing that i'm looking for starting over but the lots of positive and so you hate to see it and same thing we got the over-the-counter deer tags nothing should be managed with over-the-counter tags i mean it just it is what it is like the air is over i know it's hard to give away but every state's done it now

they've got thresholds and that's gonna those are gonna be met in a lot of these hunts during the august season and you're gonna shove a bunch of hunters in the whatever's left december and january it's because people are going to go do it they're just going to look at the list and go it's a band let's go learn a new unit sounds like it's a band-aid for water long-term management productivity again drought sensitive and and and uh there's just all right well let's move on that we love it though we do we love arizona we talked a little bit about new mexico earlier uh i think we've hammered them pretty good they're they're they've got non-residents hard in their crosshairs right now which okay they've got it is they've got a commission that's uh rogue right now and everything's on the table who knows who knows what's going to happen so um and that that's hard you know that

there's so much angry bronson just as an old just as a people are circumventing boards and just going straight to legislatures and stuff because there's so much anger and and part of it is warranted i'm going to defend it just a little bit part of it is warranted the boards haven't listened to maybe the local public call it a cab iraq whatever depends on what state you're in the local public input they've done what they've wanted to do at times we've seen it personally and then you know at some point to get any change at all you've got to go around but at the same token when you get something in state law try to get that change i agree versus versus a rule or a policy on the wildlife board i don't like it i it doesn't make me feel good i don't like it it's literally somebody playing king just like we're talking about being king right now and it's not going to happen because you don't

even like politics no i'm heading to the hills all right so where are we in new mexico we skipped it so we can do colorado if you want yeah let's do colorado what do you like i like the options that i probably have a few more things to say that i don't like but i like i like that you have something no matter your point level when it comes to deer that you can go do i do like that you can force the draw with zero one two three four five however many points you have you can currently you can with the current quotas that's right you've been able to i like that plus you got turn back options occasionally landowner tag to be able to go i like that i use it as as my it is a deer state every year in my calendar i like that option i i don't hunt elk much there i mean i could should but i just i don't but from a deer standpoint i love that you can force it if i've got three points five six ten

and i want to go that year there's something i can usually try to do that with and and it's predictable that's probably the number one thing i like about colorado other than and they grow big deer they can grow it but i don't like a hundred percent preference point draw on deer elk i don't like it what do you mean there's no random we've got the hybrid what do you mean well that's that's smoking mirrors i know we've talked about it for non-residents i'm just trying to get a little bit of a reaction out of bronson for a minute but i i think you you you should have shouldn't be all preference on deer and elk i mean or sheep or anything and sheep and moose and go or sheep and moose and go aren't but you need to have some random tags and if you're now if you're now going to be looking at cutting non-resident portions of tags and it's a hundred percent preference you haven't seen

anything in the world of point creep until you're going to see it coming down the pipe that's right because if it if you think it's bad now and then you cut non-resident tags in half and give no random tags you're flirting with uh rats jumping from a sink well and and their point system kind of on a little bit of a different subject but their point system for sheep goat moose it's hard to wrap your arms around it that it's helping you and we have people that are getting three points and they're not participating in the point system yeah and so if your point if their point system was better in regards to those three more easily quantifiable and i know a statistician will tell me i can quantify it down to quantify it but you're not getting my money quantify it so you get my money yeah square

your point something to where you can mathematically know how many entries you are and calculate your odds a little bit easier than it all initiates based on your initial random number and then it gets divided by a feels like there's a lot of hate there for how much we support their state yeah i think with the with the non-resident over-the-counter elk tags i mean dude how many i mean i don't know what the percentage is we could have been a little more prepared and had that in every state and maybe we don't have we don't even have any notes this is just just we didn't even know what we were talking about today no we we started talking about i want to hear well yeah it's kind of not so morphing not into but chris i want to hear what chris loves about colorado besides all the 200 answers go ahead chris i could do i could do a couple things yeah um

i like as adam said you can you can go you can go there's an opportunity whether you have one point or 10 points or whatever you can go to colorado nothing's stopping you if you want to draw a tag you can go uh it may be a terrible experience but you can go um that's that's one thing i like about it as well um i like their in the past it's been a very good opportunity a lot of these units that only take three to four points are great hunts they can be um that's another thing i like about it i don't like it feels like a lot of decisions are made like we're saying uh politically and it gets worse and and and as denver and as the state goes a little bit more left left we it feels like hunting is becoming uh oh yeah a bad word almost in colorado no it is and yeah just look at wolves they pass to bring wolves into the state and it's not gonna they'll talk they'll talk about marijuana

all day long every day but but they hate the hunter yeah and you get out in these rural communities and they're they're they want hunting that it funds it funds their economies it does but yet they have zero say in the actual law because the law comes out of denver the mill similar to portland oregon or washington or reno nevada or vegas i mean they're you know there's all right i like it yeah i hope we're not heading that way in utah and we're not talking about utah yet but hey look at us are we demographically a whole lot built differently than say colorado where the masses live in colorado they're all up what i do like about utah and we're gonna go there let's just are we yeah let's get over it all right is there there's some interesting skews here i mean we you know what i why is that why do they have to make new skews because of the season dates they

and there's you gotta spread people out because there's no tags you got point creep like crazy there's no tags and the reason there's no tags is because we have to have quality because of and and we have to have quality because of a number of reasons we've had besides we've had elk in the rut since inception that's right i mean there's so that there's some change that may happen coming coming down the pipe there what do you like besides family food folks and fun and family in your i haven't killed a deer here in this state since 2010 i was golfing this morning and i was talking with the guys golfing off he drew a deer tag great deer tag this year he said it was he's he's almost to turn 50 and it's his second limited entry deer entry tag he's drawn an elk and a deer and i was thinking what have i done not second deer no the second total second and i was counting

me i've done an antelope that was back when i was like a teenager when you can apply for everything because you you drew a bison you've hunted antelope in a lot of states once i've killed like three bucks in my life so and you know about them all okay okay keep going but yeah i've drawn that an elk and a deer in my life we're dang near 50 but you've had some general deer tags which would be like over-the-counter idaho tags okay yeah but i'm just talking because of some of the the things that we're talking about we have to have and it's all getting worse um so what would uh what do i what i do like i do like that in utah we have it have two systems but the result of that two systems for deer is our limit entry deer we got like a thousand limit entry deer tags in the state and good luck ever getting one

yeah i mean that's terrible nevada's got near a thousand and one yes area 10 they call it and maybe it's 1500 but it's not very many in utah at one time it was like a thousand to 1500 and we had like 97 000 general tags it was like roughly one or two percent that i mean but i do like a general allows you know we allow you to take take your kids and do stuff like that and those aren't over the counter just to qualify they're on a draw too with a separate point system but well anyway there's some things but but having said that that there are some things that might need to change you know as again there's there's some change that's needed i don't know the exact i don't know all the right answers and a couple things a couple things i mean you know what's funny non-residents can apply for everything you know we have to do one of the once in lifetimes and then deer elk or antelope and i

don't mind that because i know what would happen because i see what happened to the non-resident pool every odd antelope now takes i know off the charts but part of it is you know this again the tag quote is you think we're bad the non-residents bad too well and the reason why they did that and just be frank the only reason they did that the only reason is to keep non-residents applying for the state and buying the hunting license we know that we were there at the meeting they were gonna you're gonna do two and now we're gonna raise the hunting make you buy a hunting license and start doing that oh let's let them play for everything and let them give this yeah good warm and fuzzy you know butterfly and rainbow filling they're gonna get points for all these species and it really doesn't mean anything

well you know get your draw run faster utah it's a joke chris kills a great buck here in utah you like that i like that but how many limited entry deer tags have i drawn zero will i ever draw a limited entry elk probably not what are you probably right now which one of the limited entry species are you in deer deer deer and i'm 20 i'm 20 years i'm 20 years and i have 20 20 points i have 20 points for everything uh that that i can apply for so deer sheep and then that means you're about 34 35 years old somewhere along there okay well how about how about nevada how about nevada there's there's residents over there 14 my bad okay how about nevada's you know has some of their residents have drawn multiple desert sheep tags yeah that's a pet peeve of mine a little bit all right okay well anything else in utah that's the hard thing for me is maybe i will draw a deer tag at some

point in my life but elk i probably will never draw an elk tag in utah and that's that's kind of disappointing because it's a great state for elk it is but there's some things that need to change on the elk and the management plan and it is brewing the management plan is up whether something gets changed whether the gnashing of teeth is so loud that it can't get changed it needs to change hunting elk every day in the rut with with rifles and it's just if it's ever going to change that's where it's going to have to change you have to shift some season days i just hate hunting females when we're under carrying capacity just to appease a few landowners i hate that like chris you've seen it firsthand i just that's and that's extreme and then then you add private land buck tags in november right for a month right that i i'm not a fan of that right i know and you got people running up and

down the main streets shooting deer off the road okay chris is getting angry uh chris where are we going next so i guess wyoming hey hey hey what i like is that the residents can hunt over the counter on places that i had takes me uh six well really let's call it region h let's call it four or five to nine ten points that's i like that i like that they get to go every year and they get mad at me they get they get mad at you they hate you you're such a liar it just ticks me off what do you really like about it what i like is that they're like like the general elk for example i think has amazing potential you could hunt you could legitimately hunt 330 plus bulls if not even 350 plus in some areas um every three to four years three to four to five years and and that may or may not change they're bursting at the seams hopefully they let loose on some non-resident tags the tag quota was

arbitrarily set years ago they don't even really know what it was based off of how said all that um you know i just wish we could i wish they wouldn't again kind of a subsidy forcing us to go with an outfitter in wilderness areas i hate that but but in a wilderness area i'd probably hire a guy willingly in some cases willingly i would you know in some cases dude i'm not going to be going and hunting 51 or 59 or 56 on a late season or something i mean i'm just not set up for the cold temperatures you know and dude and the miles and the depth of snow that can occur whatever i'm just you know probably would go outfitted i mean there's cases it would make sense but there's also low elevation wilderness we've ran into some of that in southern wyoming it's dude there's it's just a river unit 78 for deer it's a creek on one side you can't hunt one time you can't it's roadless

because some but it's designated wilderness and that changes yeah because some bunny hugger just thought that that should be wilderness and it doesn't even make sense some of it doesn't even you can walk down there and fish that river but you better not shoot a buck so yeah we don't like it i don't think it's really fair i don't i don't think it's fair it's a crock be that bold to say it's a crock but we do appreciate the outfitters we send them clients like i mean we're all for bronson you're in the outfitting industry i'm i was in the outfitting industry uh years ago like i'm just saying it's not like we're anti-outfitter we have we have total perspective on this literally in every angle it's just that that one isn't right it's the only state in the nation we book guys to go in the wilderness it's the only state in the nation that has that pitman lower 48 i mean alaska sets

things on species you know bears big bears sheep and goats you gotta hire somebody who's a non-resident but they're talking about continuing with that and doing outfitter tags in wyomingo meaning in the outfitted draw tags like similar to new mexico and so and i call them subsidy i don't i don't like them i don't like that yeah i mean it's a public resource but we've drawn tags we've drawn tags chris we've drawn tags in new mexico on the outfitter yeah well that's their system and it feels like when they've gone to the when they're the pike keep shrinking and in the good moisture years we go that way for like i want to try to draw a tag this is a year better drawing odds right yeah and we do the two-day thing is you have to you know hire a guy for two days and so you play this system and you play the game and there's that the outfitters down there like well you know i would never throw a

20 bill on the ground so i'll take you for two for two days and that makes sense it all makes sense but they kind of force you to play that little game it's a little bit of it's a bit of a game all right my way where we at my wyoming i i like like colorado i like that it's it it is somewhat predictable you i thought you were going to say you like the antelope no in wyoming i've shot one up there in wyoming did i say one you said colorado but i thought we were still they were done with colorado the evergreen or whatever your state is the wolf state we're all we're done talking about right now so wyoming i thought you would say that you like the antelope because you're kind of an antelope guy don't try to spin this harder everybody knows everybody knows that's your thing so i like the predictability i do think 75 25 is a little steep on the split and with the

sheet moose and go meaning uh max point holders get 75 percent random only get 25 we're okay i'm not i was thinking you were possibly thinking non-resident quotas you know well where i'm going with this is now on the moose sheep and goat that have been reduced to 10 going into 2023 you you shrunk that pie small and now you're dividing at 75 25 there's almost no random tags left and this is the type of razor edge thing i was alluding to earlier there's almost no carrot there today and go the the carrot the carrot is a shred of a carrot think about the point fee up there has it been worth it no it's not worth it for somebody with under 18 points and and and so people were opting out right how much money did they leave on the table again it's not all about money but obviously they have budgets and it is about money yeah that's right and but it's not and if if

you're going to go to so few attacks and you're going to have one or two random tags and you you don't have a quantifiable random draw with squared points whatever what are they talking about trying to make it more incentive they know that non-residents might be leaving their state they know that we're responsible so they might be making over 70 percent of their budget yeah might be trying to make a squared point draw for the random draw well uh there's going to be big boy ramifications from this and who knows if the deer elk and antelopes coming next we've been told and we've you know the resident group that's up there so it's coming we're planning for it whether it passes or not we know the guiding outfitters are going to fight it hard because it's a lot bigger number of tags deer elk and antelope but from what i understand they're talking guide tags so i think there's some

change coming so anyway it's yeah i think we beat it today having said that we uh we've hunted wyoming multiple times yeah and we've played the system and and it's worth playing the system it's worth getting deer and elk points points are at this point 30 40 you know 50 bucks yeah 50 bucks for a 40 for deer 30 for antelope plus relatively affordable yeah yeah to do that build points kids are cheaper 10 10 and 10 no brainer from 10 or 12 to what 18 but yep so all right well good okay what else i like i like there's part of this i love and part of it i don't love but i do like if you if you happen to be a guy that forgot to put in you can buy points in the summer not only that you just everybody has to buy a point in the summer yeah i don't like that that's the part that's why i said there's two parts of it i don't like that wyoming you went but you went i thought chris was gonna

say he likes the bears in wyoming what's the what's the opposite of evolution of evolving and you're going but you're going now the other way you used to charge and you you want to do a point or not reverting you want to buy a point or do you not want to build point yeah i do well now you just apply and you're on the draw and then you got to remember in the summer to go get your point yeah i it's that's dumb i applied and i was unsuccessful we've talked to many people we splattered in our magazine that you still got to go back for deer elk and antelope and do that they they allow you to pick it for sheep and uh sheep and moose i know let me just still pick it for the other so i can forget about you in the summer anyway it's just a so so i like the fact that you can go buy it if you need to but i don't like that if you put in for the draw you're not getting

a point i like you can amend i like you you can i like pretty easy yeah they've they've come up the times they've changed some things i like that yeah but and i like they got some big deer yeah well i like that they got great antelope you've been there one more time than i have come on how do you know you've been twice i've been once maybe more how do you know i know i've been you didn't know me at 13 years old okay well you've been at least i was a killing sucker you've been at least once more than me but probably more you're right kansas there's one thing i need to bring up there oh you're blowing let's do it it's the next state i'm moving east let's do it i thought you were going to go to montana i like that it's cheap you get a point that's why i had to start that way to be you know follow my own game rules i hate that you can't do a mule put in for mule deer just mule deer with

your points i hate how you have to draw a white tail tag first for about 400 bucks how about discrimination at its finest the residents can hunt with a rifle but we get muzzler or bows yeah and you can't draw the mule deer you know unless you draw the white tail tag first and then draw separate no points allowed random but not rifle not rifle muzzler i mean just come on hey i shot one with the rifle yeah with your governor tag i'm just saying 2100 governor i'm just saying it's wrong that's but having said that i like the i like the fact that you could draw at least every other year yeah usually every year but it's more like every other year fix the mule allows to put in for me on there whatever do it right yeah it's one of those things that doesn't make sense oh we haven't talked about montana whoa yeah that's what i thought you were i thought you were headed sorry

sorry montana oh it's okay i just think all right you take you just want to well kind of increase your moose odds and so you don't want to talk today i got shut down i thought i had a tip this year hey i just hate how convoluted complex i what i like about montana oh i haven't hunted there much i mean you and i went up there for deer and elk and haven't hunted it much um what i hate okay well love you gotta start with well i like the fact that um i drew a deer tag and i can get ashley an over-the-counter tag with me yeah i like that and justin probably take them both youth i like that under 18 or whatever i like that and and um that's the only thing i can think about that i can like i think what i like is that i've had the option to hunt big bulls but i chose not to but but i but i know that they're ready to we're building the points for it i know that there's big

bulls to be had on pretty easy but but the reason that you're not and i'm not and haven't been for five years applying up there is because of the convoluted oh wait i need to start a good thing terrible yeah you need to the good thing is is what i've had a goat tag in montana okay thank you moving on you did you killed a 20 20 wrote the pack 13 you wrote the pack tree in the wilderness i love that i don't know many guys that have ridden a pack tree chris have you heck no i think there's first for everything you should have seen aaron's face when that guy that he he went up there he lived there a couple of years and met this guy and he was an awesome dude he shows up at the horses we're going in he swings open the you know horse trailer they waltz out we tie him up he goes over there and he goes looks as we got a problem he's over there and there's one saddle and two

pack nowadays bronson you would have driven to town and bought a saddle i don't sold it on ebay i am not a horse guy i know they sell for fives or tens of thousands of dollars no the good ones how much is it just to just to get a crap one for five day way better than a pack tree i would have wrote that check so fast you show i would you know those that are in the old cowboy bars that are just tacked up to the wall those are worth some money usually i would have bought that though no anyway regressing but i absolutely despise their two-step process for deer tags in montana and what's funny is that's you feel like you learn a point you feel like you well i'm applying well meaning bro you don't you don't points in various okay you're building points but my point is you're not trying to draw an elk tag every

year because you've got to draw the general and if you do and don't draw the special you're four footing that it it's a thousand bucks minus 20 every single time you draw the general and it's convoluted and it's a pain in the butt you could be in the in the draw as a group together for the general for the general and apply for different special limited entries you know what i mean i mean every year it seems like we learn and and it's and it's not necessarily this case but it feels like you got to relearn oh yeah the entire process and all the little nuances there's crazy nuances oh yeah that the that the preference point draw for the the general tags the 75 goes to max the other 25 percent doesn't goes in the random but only to random people with zero points not and if you play the point system you have a point going into the draw and so you so like you just shot yourself in the

foot why he beat the system he did so he drew last year and then this year he had to decide am i going to give him the money for the point or not and if i don't i have better odds this year but then i'll have if i don't but i'll have worse odds next year because i won't have a point the point from this year that's right but if i do buy it right now i have worse odds worse odds this year but better next and you're like what so he just said to heck with it i'm not buying the point and you draw again the back how about and we know people with one or two points that didn't draw there's just it's just you know it's such a convoluted and they want they want it that way and again it feels like they they hate just not not not real friendly not not a friendly app series and i know your residents up there like

yeah cry me a river it's just it's a show me another state that you would have to jump through those hoops and to play for elk and say you'd like it be honest with yourself it's terrible yeah all right guy okay and i didn't burn my moose points thanks to a you know fellow you didn't no i didn't burn my moose points you tried i tried i had a tip from a listener thanks to the podcast and uh didn't work out so it was it was it was a story so you're thanking him you're thanking him i thanked you for a tip but the bull's gonna die you also saved the money on the tag how about that saved you some cash huh hey i want those 22 or whatever points go on because you keep buying your own forest into buying they got you say it you're gonna say it out loud they got me by the leash all right well we probably need to thank a few people to keep this out there and hey we might

we're gonna talk about maybe a bundle here at the end too so i say it is draw in all seriousness there is a lot of good news coming out lots of good news you know i i wrote that uh little blurb in my june magazine about all the state draw results come out in may we're like halfway through them and they're still coming but if you find out you're getting good news and you need a member experience list i'm drowning on idaho sheep now that's still pending but if you find out that you're uh got good news need a member experience list or an outfitter give us a call 435-263-0777 i'm gonna draw nevada too that friday this is two days from now me too 6 p.m pacific time what's it called again adventure begins well like yeah they copied you know maverick or whatever just happy hour they couldn't call it

happy hour that's what it is adventure begins i i'm just glad when they're they're they're they're excited about i'm excited about it uh yeah we've had the wyoming elk come out today it's kind of fun i mean we've had a lot of draws our guys we we drew some people huh pretty impressive the waves keep coming today i've got some great more a lot more draw results coming out and then we got some more deadlines and we're applying like it's our job bronson all right keep going what were we talking about this time oh stealth cam we have had some people draw tags and it's kind of jarred some people to look at their inventory and of course some of these uh cell cam let's call them seasons make it to where you've got to get it get them out get them working and then pull them back in and so anyway you may need a few cameras if you do give us a hauler four three five two six three zero seven seven

seven stealth cam.com go check out what they've got we've got where we ordered heavy on two different models we ordered an ex well actually three models cellular and then uh kind of a more of an upper end camera that we're selling for a steal uh not too much over a hundred and then mid right there i don't know 55 bucks or something on uh on kind of a lower grade camera that's still awesome i use them and yeah i use them yeah when you need a bunch of cameras or a bunch of coverage and yep and then we ordered some cellular cams as well so anyway lock boxes all that and we got a few last year models that were blowing out uh anyway first come first serve give us a hauler i like it uh it's just it's just that time of year bronson we're also doing a ton of optics i even some vortex stuff huh how about

that oh yeah well it's that time of year too we've it's amazing we say it every year and then as soon as the draw results start coming out people like i do this you know i you know it's just like you draw a bow uh archery tag you need a new bow or a setup whatever it's it's true there's nothing like a great tag to make you really evaluate your gear and if you need some optics give us a call we carry you know all the major brands you know swarovski zeiss leica vortex revik um so anyway give us a call whether it's bino spotting scope we are heavily inventory heavily we've done that deliberately we got sick of waiting and bits and pieces and onesies and twosies and having said that if we're if we run out of something well we'll order for you still we'll order we'll find out some of them are back order a little bit so i'm just saying first come first serve on some of that that's right

you know don't wait too late if you need something better give us a call on that and uh hey we've done one of these before but uh vortex has been a great partner of ours over the years from this from the start actually here at epic outdoors and uh we did one of these bundles for a razor hd 27 to 60 by 85 spotting scope whether it's angled or straight along with either a summit carbon 2 or ridge view carbon tripod we'll do the kit there if you call and buy one of those uh kit we'll do a special price on there and we'll throw a ranger 1800 uh rangefinder in for free whoa how about that are we all right we did one of those a while ago and we blew a bunch out and hey i'm ready to do it again let's do it it's time let's get get them in people's hands that can use them because they're not going to find deer

and elk sitting in our safe i like it hey didn't we have a little something something to give away well yeah well in the spirit of that let's do it let's give away let's do it how are we going to do it well let's give away a pair of uh what diamondbacks yeah you know whether you got just a truck vinyl or kids should we do a diamondback now and maybe a rangefinder next time yeah let's do it what are we going to do to how do we how do we do that is it some social media chris usually what you do something like that yeah let's do that little rules we'll okay yeah there will be a vortex post posted about this bundle okay if you share that post to your instagram story like it so your odds are going to be pretty good it disappears in 24 hours exactly so your odds will be pretty good if you share that bundle the vortex bundle to your story then you will be entered

and we're going to draw that on friday the 27th okay deadline i like it appreciate phone scoping their uh support of us here at epic outdoors cheston's a good buddy of course we talk about him often maybe even a little too often uh but we like him and he's got great products in fact my phone that's i love the case is on 24 7 protects the phone i like it and uh anyway you don't video it didn't happen it's very easy to video with it take photos and whatnot and uh in this day and age quality optics out there it's pretty incredible chris we've even put out tv shows using phone scope footage you know anymore unbelievable yeah and if you need if you get a new phone or if you get a new spotting scope or something like that you might need to tweak your phone scope so keep it in mind p-h-o-n-e-s-k-o-p-e dot com that's right everybody uh stick with us we do have a little bit of a

bonus let's call it a bonus footage here coming on the end bronson bronson snapped his head he's not sure what that means but i'm thinking of a hunting story or something all right so anyway uh a little shout out to triple s polaris four three five eight six five zero one hundred super good people i've been cranking on the razor um you know it's one of those things i do a little bit of social media but don't want to show too much about where we're where we're at and what we're doing but having said that uh we've got that razor cranking it's an awesome they make awesome products and look they kind of specialize in the aftermarket side of things making it uh exactly what we need in the field so anyway colton francis we appreciate you appreciate your company triple s polaris cedar city utah they'll deliver anywhere literally anywhere four three five eight six five zero one hundred

i had something else written down that you threw out it's one of those things it's kind of one of the funniest or best or whatever things i heard all week you asked and you you said let's ask it on a podcast no i didn't yeah you did you're gonna know you're gonna remember you said you wondered we're talking about stags we're talking about stags goat stag you said no but you said i wonder if anybody's ever started shot a stag antelope remember yeah and what it looks like and we'll throw it out there if you got a picture email that to us too anybody you're gonna shot a stag antelope i have not i couldn't say i've ever seen one if i did i didn't know it send us a photo it would be interesting what does we know what deer and elk look like when they're that way we want to know what an antelope does if it doesn't happen they jump and crawl under fences all the time stuff's gonna happen

guaranteed you you're gonna snag your boys on something somebody some critter somewhere in the antelope world has snagged their boys on something but remember evolutionarily aren't they like they're not related like anything else on the earth it seems like the north american antelope so maybe they maybe then maybe they're bulletproof no no i don't know hey name the last weird weird thing you've seen on an antelope but i'm not talking breaking a horn horn bees i heard there was a lot in wyoming that are freaking dead well that's ehd that's not sensitive related all right anyway all right one thing i was wondering so for the bonus footage i was just wondering i'd love to put clint i love to put clint on the spot he's so opinionated i just want to ask him what he thinks about the point systems for a minute what do you think should we see if he'll answer a phone call

try no or were you thinking about a particular hunting story so you want to talk about one of the antelope stories i've told all three all right well sometimes we ought to have all three on one podcast so people don't have to sift through the last 250 podcasts antelopes adam's antelope hunting experiences we can even make another a so it'd be triple a like four minutes adams 32 podcast and ali's alligator all right let's just ask clint what he's i don't know worst and best maybe instead of all or let's his opinion hello hey what are you doing now just formulating hunting plans no good timing we got you on the epic outdoors podcast oh no hey just we'll make it quick we know you're we know you're trying to make money and provide for 14 women and children and the heat and the heat's on and so acs are starting to get cranked right yeah people people get angry when they get hot

we've been talking about angry world right now you're probably at a cool 68 formulating hunting plans well yeah i was it was nice and cool but i thought people can always put on more blankets but they just can't take off more clothes and so what what plans are you first off since you're talking about what plans you formulate what are you looking at oh my cousin with his tag i'm just trying to see if i'm going to be able to help him on his hunt oh all right okay all right is it a good good cousin or maybe not so good cousin oh it's a good cousin i mean i want to help him i want this isn't a you know okay i want to go you're an active willing participant yes this is not a i'm not there as don't go into the head yeah okay you don't know i'm from there okay okay all right well clint we want we today's subject was point systems and positives and negatives throughout

all the western states and if you were king what would you change just wondering your opinion maybe general or however you want to go with it uh of point systems in general you like them don't like them and and which one which ones do you like more or less and less because guy a guy like you you're very thoughtful deliberate and you analyze everything the cost benefit cost benefit ratio you know all those and if there's a loophole you've screwed a state or two so okay well here we go for starters there's a whole lot of hate going on right now out there oh yeah that's why we hey just to let you know the flavor the flavor of the show just to let you know we talked about that and we they named it the glass half full show so when we started talking about a state we the first thing we said had to be positive that was our own rule we'd like to hear something

positive out of you all right i like point systems um i don't like a hundred percent preference point system like um colorado there are there are some benefits to that it's because predictability i like the predictability point in that um but there's just so many people that want to hunt and so limited of a resource out there right now um people are going to become more and more disgruntled with those systems in the future i'll give up i like utah utah half is half is random half go to points i like that um you still have a chance and that's kind of where i land i idaho all random new mexico all random um i feel like those two states don't show me any love i never can seem to get and i'm but i also am putting in for the better units so the more long shot type odds and how do you feel about

the guide draw in new mexico do you like it um no i don't like it i'm gonna do it yourself or i don't like it and that's me but at the same time i don't want to be a hater we've had a lot of hate going on right now yeah and what i don't like is a lot of people want to uh if you start a system i think you should try and maintain the system as close as you can so that yeah when people are invested in it you don't jerk the rug out from underneath them years down the road amen like if you uh i luckily i had drawn my uh i cashed out on my moose points in wyoming a few years ago and you drew again i drew again a random this year do you feel good about that is that fair i almost feel guilty to tell you the truth my brother my brother has like you know i don't know he's my point group is drawn maybe it's 21 22 points um and he hasn't drawn in five years he's been in the point group is drawn and i

just picked up a random tag yeah and he's got his work it's the last year for that they're going to change the 90 10 and those random tags are going to disappear and those people that are in the 20s that have been waiting for sheep and um moose tags that think that they're going to get a chance down the road because they're getting points and you know it's 75 bucks 100 bucks a point 150 150 now yeah right it keeps going up yeah all that and then they want to change the allocation so even less go to you i kind of feel like you're being kind of dirty to them do you feel like the states appreciate non-residents i have i have don't feel like any state out there at all appreciates non-residents whatsoever i think what despite the 65 to almost 80 percent of some of these states budgets coming from non-resident licenses right i think that we fund a lot of stuff and for a long time i think

like colorado and wyoming and some of these they would always the residents would want more tax and they'd want to say well are you willing to pay more for the tax the resident the non-residents are really footing a large portion of our hunting budget and a lot of the residents have finally said oh we don't care anymore we're willing to pay more but they still don't want to raise the resident tax fees proportionately like they probably should and then they say well we had a good year and so we're flush with money and so uh we won't do it for now yeah let's just hold it on residents this year because our budget's good you know i don't know right on right on any other thoughts in regards to the points points i don't look at points guaranteeing you attack um it's not not money in your bank and all

of a sudden the bank burned down and they say we can't yeah you have to sure i like it improves your odds um but to be honest some states i'm kind of if i was starting fresh there are certain states that i don't know if you're going to get your bang for your buck in the point system anymore i think of one of those instances in my life right now my my max points for most in my montana okay yeah say i got max i have max sheep go i'm montana you do you have all three yeah i got all three max i have max sheep and i don't know if i'm ever gonna draw tag there and i drew my goat so i'm glad i'm done but i mean yeah i've killed a goat and killed a moose i'm happy static done i accept that you know i'll i may never get to hunt those hunts and that's fine and it's a little bit different for the the that'll

be your third sheep and goat type things but but deer elk and antelope on them we talked about states like oregon for deer elk and antelope for heaven states and how stingy they are and i dropped oregon like 15 when they raised the permit or the hunting license fee doubled it or more they raised the fee and i was i mean i still got points there because i don't think you lose your points um maybe i'll go try to get a white tail hump there someday or something yeah i mean i talked to them and told them they were at the expo one day and i talked to them and i'm sure they listened they listened they listened to me but it didn't make a difference no he pretended to care for a minute oh geez like nevada i nevada just has so few non-resident tags i i kind of like their point system but it's uh your chances still are they got to help our

drawing odds give us give two choices instead of five do something get rid of the five choices for non-resident yeah the five choices is kind of what's killing it i mean i hate to say that because i take advantage of that as much we all do in the residence do too that's why they won't touch it they like it but man they would even help the residents if they change that yeah all right what else that's my well that's my that's your rant you don't have any hate you're just i've been trying not to well it seems like there's a lot of hate toward guides out there right now and outfitters in utah and some of it might be well deserved i don't i'm not going to be the judge on that but there seems to be a lot of hate to non-residents everywhere out there there's hate for landowners i mean there's hate for if you had a lifetime license in utah there's

you know hate for that too right now um drought i think drought drought and the lack of trophies quantity quality if people have tags and they're seeing deer they don't complain in the fishing games awesome two to three two to three years ago that was the case in utah clint two to three not not not decades ago it's amazing the difference 2019 years will make like 2019 when it was an unbelievable year geez like this state is on the verge of the the glory days are now and other states too yeah and now it's like you know lynch them all i'm angry yeah i want a 200 incher i'm hangry and angry both yeah i'm hungry well i've seen colorado there's going to be stuff coming down colorado oh yeah a non-residents are going to get oh the short end stick and i don't know if it's short honestly we've been getting a pretty good chunk i'm not gonna lie there we know we have been and i'm not

pretending there it's um but it's but it's just what we're also talking about is yeah you couple that with the with with we've been getting a very healthy chunk of deer and elk tags and now you're going to cut that and there's a hundred percent preference draw your point creep thing just got magnified it's done horrible so you've got to there's got to be something else change if you're going to cut cut those in half you got to have 50 50 split something's gonna have to happen you know what i like about clint he's living the american dream it's a weekday in the middle of the day and he's working on hunting plans i like that i was in between jobs and had to stop in here they've overlapped don't give me my high school history teacher used to tell me the american dream was to have a chicken in every pot and two cars in every garage how you doing clint's got that

clint's got way more than two cars work man he's got more than one chicken in the pot oh 100 he got turkeys in the pot yeah i'm surrounded by turkeys they call me on the phone and put me on podcasts well you're just a good sport here's a podcast a future podcast that you with uh with all this current when the dust finally settles with uh non-resident allocations you guys need to get serious and uh do a if you're going to move to a state for hunting reasons what's going to be the best state to move to oh yeah and you can only answer that based on today's rules and plans and management strategy it's a hard thing brownson we know a guy that's kind of roman we know a guy that's in arizona right now and he's going to keep on roman yeah you know not that he's he's willing to stay there for five years if he needs to i mean retirement age and if you just live where you live

and big old motorhome or i think wyoming residents got a pretty good right now oh yeah and it's hard to be with the next little shift i think colorado residents are going to have a pretty good too yeah yep i agree with the next little i like i like idaho i have fishing's amazing upland game i you know ducks geese i mean geez on top of big game still has over the counter tags are amazing sheep odds are amazing you know i i think idaho wyoming idaho and wyoming colorado are kind of my favorites but i i mean i like arizona too even in utah like just we've talked about uh clint i've drawn like three limit entry tags not counting my sheep but i've got one antelope one elk and one deer in my life it's not the place to retire for hunting in utah to draw tags no it's not i've drawn up tag arizona's not either you know

uh nevada is not really either you're in the 90 percent pool everywhere but they're still tough tags to draw so anyway all right guy we're gonna let you get thanks for being gracious yeah get the ac flowing get the get the hangriness out of people i'm about spreading love not hate so all right hey i like hashtag this is also put that on this this is kind of an inaugural podcast on on something positive all right guy okay sounds good okay man all right yeah bye hey all right so on to the positive here in about a day and a half which is probably about the time this podcast will come out nevada is going to be out how about that and even uh idaho sheep that's gonna be coming out huh yeah good luck in nevada let's try to shoot chris we'll get this out about five o'clock on friday friday it's five o'clock somewhere all right everybody appreciate it good luck let us

know if you draw call if you want a bronson bundle at epic outdoors we help you reach your hunting dreams whether it's helping you to develop a long-term application strategy or finding the perfect outfitter for your next hunt as a member of epic outdoors you'll also receive the epic outdoors magazine and have access to the best hunting consultants in the industry online tools and more to join epic outdoors visit epic outdoors.com or call 435-263-0777 you