EP 239: Our Take on Points Systems. Keeping the Glass Half Full

Watching the world change right before our eyes. What's the perfect point system? Alright, I like point systems. I don't like a 100% preference point system like Colorado. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, Chris Peterson coming at you from Southern Utah. Chris, nice to have you back. John was at the keyboard. It was a little odd, I'm not gonna lie. We hope it came... I'm one of the... The older we... Well, the older we get, we don't like change, right? I hit publish, so I gotta listen to it and make sure everything is okay. Yeah, you had to do that. Probably a little late for that. You had to add the front and back and do the Chris, you know, put the Chris touch on it, but geez, it's just different. I don't like different. Different. It's kind of like, you know, brushing your teeth with someone else's toothbrush.

No, it's not. That's gross. Come on. Where did you get that? It just came out of my head. Anyway. I've never done that. So, while we're on the subject of Chris real quick, let's just throw a little shout out, Chris. You've got a lot of music out there. Where can they find you? Oh, anywhere you find music. Spotify, iTunes, Apple Music, pretty much all of that. How about that? Chris, it's getting to Country Festival and Fairtime. It is. You're moving. You're going to be around the West. Yeah. Doing some stuff up in Montana and Wyoming. You're keeping your beard.

Well, I think it's gonna come out. I still haven't found my clippers. Whoa. We moved all our house. Hey, as the immortal words of a good friend of ours, they make more clippers every day. That's what my wife told me this morning. She's like, I think it's time just to buy some clippers. What are you doing? Just taking scissors to it every week and just trimming it, kinda? No, I, so I'd, every once in a while, when it got real bad, I'd go to my mom's house and borrow some clippers, but I can't find mine. Hey, moms are good for the rest of your life. Yeah. You know what I mean? They always want a mother hen you, forever. Yeah, just had Mother's Day a week or two ago. Hopefully, everybody treated mama right. Well, yeah. Because hunting season's coming, and you want to treat mama right prior. That's right. Hey, Bronson, I like it.

I like where you're headed with that, but moving right along. Let's, so there was some... Moving right along, what do you mean? Father's Day's coming up? Yeah, let's talk about something important. No, I wasn't thinking that, but you know, You know, there's been a lot of, so today, you know, Wyoming elk draw results came out. We've had a lot of opportunities to be happy, but we aren't. Well, you're not. Why are you so mad? Let's have a little counseling session. No, I'm not really mad. Chris, Chris. I'm just, just think about some things that might help Adam as he goes ahead and tells us this terrible story. I have no terrible story. My life is great. I'm proud of being American, and I have a very happy life. But sometimes you want more, in the form of tags. That's what I'm talking about. Well, I think, and didn't you have to change some flights, which just makes you onry?

Yeah, and that was just fresh, like, 20, 30 minutes ago. But think about this. You're able to fly, you know? That's right. I don't have to ride a horse to Alaska. I don't have to do that. Sometimes Adam and I have to check each other a little bit and go, okay, those are some good If you have problems to have, it could be a lot worse. That's right. Right? So, speaking of which, let's talk about that subject we were talking about a little bit. Which part of it? Well, being happy. Being angry? No, the whole world is an angry place, right? New Mexico's angry. They want to cut us out of some non-resident tags. Wyoming's angry. They want to cut us out. Colorado's angry. They want to cut us out. You know? You know, every state, we've talked about it a lot on the podcast, that states, it seems like one little, one or two states started talking, and now everybody feels like they're

open in every program within their whole system. I read today that somewhere back east, there's some elephant in a zoo, in a one-acre zoo. There's a group suing to contend that that elephant has feelings like a person, and that they should be treated as a person and released from prison. And it's on the front page of our Salt Lake News. Come on. Nope, I read it today. Because, anyway, my point is people are angry. That's right, I don't watch it. But I do jump on there to watch the weather, because I pray that it's going to rain. And when you go to the home page, what do you see? You see the home page. Well, whatever's really important, like elephants. I need to refresh it and get it right onto the weather only and bypass it. Right. But back to your point, man, there's a lot of angst. And we're not talking about, I mean, it's probably worldwide.

Man, there's a lot of, whether it's COVID frenzy stuff that was caused by that, people, you know, it's just a... I think it stems from COVID. People were locked in their house and told what to do and told what they could and couldn't do. And weren't we a little bit anxious about that? Chris, were you anxious when they were trying to keep you from going out and enjoying the hills on your horse? Yeah. Ah, nobody should leave. Don't gas up. Whatever. Yeah, it was a different way. Trying times, right? Trying times, yep. It seems like, yeah, the last two years that's been when this has really hit the next level. And it's time to look at the glass half-full. And I don't know, everybody's in a different situation in life, but man, try to look at the glass half-full, because things usually can be worse, and your neighbor probably isn't as bad as you think he is.

Well, I don't know. Maybe not, but maybe. I'm talking in generalities. I'm not pretending to know everybody's problems. Hey, did you really have to bring that up? I didn't bring it up for your benefit. I'm talking to our listeners. If that hit home, maybe we should tap out on this topic and move along. Oh, geez. I've got a dandy. Go ahead, Chris. I just read this actual headline. Court must decide if an elephant is a person. Well, what we have is people are saying that they're cats and dogs, and we're putting litter boxes in schools and school bathrooms. So, I would say if they're cats, that elephant's probably human. And this goes back to the angriness, Bronson. It goes back to it. Where's normalcy? Every faction of whatever ideology or what you're thinking gains traction, and people have this platform.

It's the world that you got social media, now you don't, and it's just people are venting epically. So, I just want to invite people out there to intentional parent, and when you see this going on, tell your kid it's not normal, and that the, I don't even want to say the word Biden, so I'm not going to say the word Biden, but that this time frame, time in history isn't normal, and it's okay to stand there for what's right. How about that?

I like it. You like it? Yep. You're done with it. Well... It's over. Yeah, I don't... You don't want to talk about litter boxes? No. Okay. They're stinky. Chris, do you have anything to add? I'm good. Let's move on. But anyway, having said all of this, we've got fires and crazy places. New Mexico's gonna burn down. We got Forest Service closures. Bronson till December 31st. Basically, the northern half of the state on Forest Service, you're not... They're closed as of tomorrow. May 19th. The BLM, Gila, who knows what else is next. They're coming. It's too dry. There's a whole lot coming down the pipe for what that's gonna mean for hunters with tags. Some very valid issues, or, you know, whatever. The upside is, the upside, okay, we're gonna look at this half full.

It's gonna teach them a lesson for screwing around with the non-reism quotas. How about that? Well, you're thinking that that's a direct result? Well, I just, I've got, I'm a little anxious over them wanting to change a bunch of things, and just watching the world change right before our eyes, Especially, you know, when it deals to hunting down there. The positive side is, you know, is... Okay, you know. I've got an idea for the day, for the rest of the day. What? Because we didn't really have a firm outline today. Yeah, well, as we... But let's go through... I've got some things. I've got some things in mind. Let's go through a wish list, and we'll go state by state. If we were king of Utah, king of New Mexico, whatever, what would we change? But one thing I want to change, one thing I... Okay.

But let's start, the first thing in every state, since we get a lick of glass half full, is a positive in this state. What do you like about California? Okay, I like it. Well, hey, you got the beaches, right? When I went down, we went on a family little vacation years ago, and it was awesome. It was awesome. Okay. I'm a Dodgers and Lakers fan, but we're talking hunting. It doesn't matter about their sports teams and beaches. Before we start, what I would like, what I would like if I were... I'm going to go back to King for a moment, is just that the states appreciate the non-resident. Yeah, and we could have come prepared here. We realize we're a non-resident in 90% of the states, and we live in one state. So are you, whoever's listening. That's right. So, we understand that non-residents should not dictate policy, procedure, all that in every state.

But we also have to point out, and if we need to, we will and shall and can and easily do, I want to point out the percentage of non-residents of the budget in these states that come from non-residents. It's almost in every case the majority. It's like 50 to 75 percent. Well, no, I think in large part it's, I'm hearing 72 to 78 percent. And I've got some states, you know, we're friends with some of these guys and they won't tell me. And I think the only reason we're talking about that is some of these states, and this is actually how I feel, You're on the razor's edge in my mind of losing an enormous amount of income by alienating non-residents. And so, if you keep it too expensive, and the odds are so limited, it's just like you playing the Powerball. Now, there may be some people say, I play it every time I go to get gas. Okay.

Well, I don't, because what are your odds for the Powerball, Jason? A million, two to five, ten, two hundred million. Whatever. Two hundred million to one. Okay. So, do you feel like you got a chance? No. Okay. Don't play it. And that's on the extreme. But my point being, if you're sending out money for you and your kids in these states, and the cost keeps going up, and the pie keeps shrinking of what you can even draw, pretty soon, it's like, is it worth continuing? Or do you just take that money and say, hey, I'm gonna go somewhere I can actually buy something with that money and go do it. And I feel really good about our membership and the tags we've drawn, Utah alone. We drew a large portion of the one non-resident tag They're available in a lot of different hunts, the special hunts in the state. How awesome is that? It's pretty awesome to be a part of.

Having said that, Bronson, they raise desert sheep tags, and we cut non-resident quotas. Oh, yeah. And I'm not saying you, I'm just saying, let's start with Utah. It's an oversight. We bring it to their attention. They're like, oh yeah, I guess your tags are in the 70s, and they're only given five. Tags went up in units, and you cut non-resident tags. And the reason why they got away with it is because there is no real formula in Utah. Yeah, there's no law and rule in Utah that allocates any percentage to non-residents. No. They try to adhere about 10 percent. But there's nothing that holds them to it. Therefore, there's no structure on how a formula spits out the tags. Just like New Mexico, 84, 10, and 6, there's an actual formula on Darrocan Anilum that spits out how many tags. There is, but they're wanting to do it unit by unit, or hunt by hunt, let's call it, on sheep.

And that's when we are looking at not getting any non-resident tags, and then they're going to lose some revenue. Yeah, $3,000 a pop. Yeah, and we're talking about the same thing in Wyoming. When you cut it down, and you end up in a random situation with one or two tags or whatever for non-residents total, you're going to lose some revenue. And again, it's not all about revenue. I hate that hunting is about revenue. I hate that. It's not, but it is, and these agencies are. And if your state makes 60 to 75 percent of its revenue, or 72 to 78, or 75 or 8, from non-residents, and that cuts dramatically, you're the ones that are going to have to front the bill as a resident. And they should. And they should. Honestly, resident tags, there's some states that are 30 bucks still, 35 bucks. Honestly, what are you talking about? Like, raise your rates, you know?

Colorado raises them every single year, or potentially could, based on a consumer price index. It's in the Denver Post on whatever date of the year. That's right. It's the weirdest thing. That's right. It is weird, but they don't have to have this continuing conversation of, It goes up every year a little bit. Yeah, we've had them to the same price for 10 years. Why? Why'd you have that? Let's fix that. I think you should raise them. You know, I don't like raised fees, but at the same time, you're going to have to front some of the, you know, the brunt of the cost on some of these things if you're going to change non-resident laws. And a lot of residents, when you initially hear that, you might say, oh great, we're going to get more tags. And that is true. There is truth to that, and we are advocates of residents getting... But how many more, Bronson?

What? How many more? How many more tags are the residents going to get? You're right. We're talking... Oh, on the sheep, on the moose, sheep, goat, and bison in Wyoming, it's not that many tags. Wyoming gives over-the-counter general and a finite number on non-residents, and they're bursting at the seams on the general elk. Why? How many more can you give a resident? They get them over-the-counter. They already get them. Right, give them two. Make them start killing cows like they kill does back east or whatever, you know, to help with car collisions. I don't know. I'm just saying, you know, let's say you really non-residents are getting too much. Okay, you take 5% from us, 2%, 5%, 10% to make it equitable or whatever, to make it seem more fair. What did you really gain? You didn't change the resident.

What are you going to gain? You're going to get some more tags, but your agency may go broke, and you are the one that's going to be the one fitting the bill. What I find interesting, Wyoming guys, they hate Utahards. They call them Utahards, right? They hate them. They hate the Utah license plates at the Trailheads. They're over the counter. That's right. They're over the counter. And we're very finite in Region G, for example. That's a prime example. So, just interesting. So, I just wanted to start it off with, let's just appreciate the non-resident. Us too, here in Utah. Let's just appreciate the non-resident a little bit. We're all non-resident somewhere, and I realize we're non-residents more places than we are residents, so it might come across, well, you're just fighting for the non-resident way. Well, hey, in some regards, we are, but in some regards, there has to be a balance.

And what I think, Jason and I have talked about this very frankly. You may have picked up about it in the magazine even in the last year or so. We're getting a lot more brutally honest on our takes on some of these states every month when we produce a new magazine. Meaning, it's not all butterflies and rainbows. Carter loves when I say that. It's easy to just talk about how you apply in a state and say, yeah, apply, apply, apply. If you get lucky, give us a call, and that can roll off your tongue.

But it's getting a lot more, we're pointing out a lot more of the increasing in cost, and it's no longer justifiable to apply, and it's hard to even start applying, all of those types of things. And that's, I guess, the point that we're getting. I think there's some serious, people are going to have to really look at their application dollars moving forward, even more so as pies are shrinking, tag fees and application fees, and hunting license, non-refundable hunting licenses go up. I'm into Nevada over a grand. I love Nevada, and I'll never quit. You get four or five people committed with 10 plus points in Nevada and a family, yeah, you're in it 200 plus bucks. You've got to really start thinking about some things, and I think something that could help them would be go to two choices instead of five valid choices. Give us something. Give us better drawing odds, you know what I mean?

Which would help the residents, too. All right, so are we playing this game? We're playing the—should we just start on the left coast and go down and mark east? The left? Yeah, I love that. Just get rid of them quickly. What do we, name a positive? I don't know why we have to start there. Okay, well let's name a positive. Where do you want to start? Texas? Everything's bigger down there. What do you want to start with? They have one desert sheep tag. Let's start with California, just trying to think of something positive. So go first. Okay, the positive, the thing I like about California is they get their draw results out in like 10 days. Okay, I like that. And hey, I want to use them as an example, and Linton, Nevada, to these other states to get with the program. Some of these other states that take two, three, four months. You're 100% right.

If California can get their dry results out in 10 to 14 days. You just pounded the table, and people heard that. Yeah, all right. That's because my drink's empty. That's the only reason you heard rattle. It's about dry. Okay, I've got mine in my hands, so it doesn't spill. But that's what I like. But if I was a king, I'd give, hey, you give 200 and something antelope tags in the state, and only one can go to a non-resident. Up to one. Up to one elk. And that includes cows. Give us a little bit of a bone. Okay, so you're jumping into the negative. Go ahead, keep on that. Well, what I like is- Hey, I don't even apply there, and I will say that openly. I don't think it's worth the cost of admission. What I like is they run the random draw first, and so on sheep, you have a chance. Hey, I like this game. What I hate is the drawing odds.

But another thing that I like is they get big sheep, dude. They do. And California's, you know, impressive. Some of the elk, obviously, you go look at our magazine. That Roosevelt's like to die for. Yeah. And we got a video of it, you know, in somebody's backyard backyard. Trashing somebody's amazing little flower bush, just crushing it. You know, and a collared cow off. And so, there's some weird stuff there. The hunter in there, I can't remember his name, but he talked about it. The locals all thanked him for killing the elk, because he was a trasher. Yeah, it was a trasher. Lilac bushes. There's some pretty cool stuff in California, and there's some undiscovered... How about the whites, years ago? Oh, yeah. Hey, we got 400 sheep there. Wow. Never knew that.

There's other places like it. Yeah, there is. There is. And so... And there's an example of mainly for budgetary reasons, they weren't flying surveys, they didn't even know, until you get a few hikers or whoever start telling them, hey, we're seeing a bunch of sheep over here. One other thing I hate. You have to request a refund for like the deer tag. Remember, you have to request it. As a non-resident. Why do you have to request it? I don't like it. So, people that don't request it, and you lose track, right? We're all busy, you've got a lot of businessmen we're talking to that are members, and you're busy if you don't request it. You're donating. You're donating.

And they charge you the resident, or the deer permit fee cost, and you only get the difference of that in a resident cost, but you gotta ask them for that. You gotta ask them for that. Yeah. I think it's wrong. Yeah. You know, I mean, alright, so. Where else are we to? Let's go up the coast of Oregon. What do you mean? I'm getting some out of the way. I struggle, I struggle with the outfitter. Gotta be positive. Okay, positive. Well, we've killed a sheep there. Oh, yeah. Random. Random. I like it. I like the random thing. Random sometimes, however I was talking. So, let's just say we like the random sheep. Okay, great. I like the random goat, whatever. Let's just, but I was talking to a very good client of ours, and he's like, you know, everybody's complaining about point systems.

But Utah has a random, and Utah has a point system, right? And the random, and the point system, you know, helps with the random. But he says, everybody wants to do away with the point system. Do away with it, and have your neighbor draw five times in a row. And you don't draw for the next 30 years, nor are you getting any closer. Ever. Hard to take. Ever. So, you do have to be careful what you wish for. Point systems go away, tag quotas go away, things change, whatever. Are you really happy? Maybe when we're all done with this little Western State wrap-up, we can talk about the perfect point system. Well, okay. So, put that on your little yellow sticky. And so, why did I lose my train of thought?

So, while, so... Oregon. Yes. So, anyway, they do have the random, and you and I both... For sheep and goat, not frankly... But what I... Okay, so back to... I got it, I got it. Okay. My theory is just that the millennial age, or plus or minus, right? Plus five years, minus 10 years, whatever. The millennial age-ish... Will you define a millennial age? I don't know what it is, actually. Who is it? How old are you if you're a millennial? Exactly. Like, what is that? Does that mean you're born? Isn't it like 30 to 40, Chris? I think...

I think something like that. It's kind of like the baby boomers. You're not a baby boomer. You think it would mean if you're born in 2000 or later, that's the new millennium, but that's not. That's not. 22 years old. It's more like a 20. Yeah. So, anyway, but I think it's gratifying now, and you and I have 20, 25 plus points in some places. It's taken us 25 years to get to there, okay? But they're looking at it saying, immediate gratification. I have a cell phone. I can get people to reply on text immediately. I get my emails immediately. I want my It's crazy. I don't want to wait 25 years like they waited, but they don't think about that we waited 25. They just want to, and they're mad, and they're angry, and the point systems don't work, and it's tougher than ever, and that's true. All truth is. We've been waiting 20, 25 years.

I'm just saying, you know, we played the game for a long time. And so, anyway, having said that, there are some points. I like Idaho. I like some of these randoms, and you and I both partake in the random up there in Oregon. The what I don't like. I don't like the drawing odds. I don't like the very, it's so limited. Three to five percent. On the non-resolve, five percent. And then splitting the quotas with outfitters. If you want to hire an outfitter, go hire one. If an outfitter does an amazing job, he's going to be busy. If he doesn't do a great job, he might not be so busy. But that's the same thing with a doctor or a guy with repairman on your truck or whatever. It's just, I don't, in general, I have a problem with those two. You've been a guy in the past. I'm one. I don't like the...it's almost like subsidy. It's almost like subsidy.

Hey, we're gonna keep your business. Here's tags for you so you can... And I don't want to say it's a Democrat subsidy, but it just feels subsidized, and it is. Same thing with the wilderness in Wyoming, but we'll go to Wyoming, so let's stay in Oregon. Just the outfitter tags, some of those, some of those, Bronson, we don't have a single tag in a draw. Well, it's because you give 5% of the deer and elk tags, and then of that, half of them can go to outfitters. So, if there's 20 tags, you get a one tag every other year in the draw. And at times, the outfitter doesn't sell it, it goes back in the draw. Not on the good ones. Right, but they're always taken. So, anyway, having said that, they have some amazing Mulder genetics. I cannot believe, positive, positive, can't believe the number of 200-inch deer that are taken in Oregon that people don't even hear about.

And despite their management philosophy. Yeah, I'm shocked. I'm blown away every year. And of course, when we talk about it, it's somewhat dismal, because the regular draws are dismal. They don't produce, but the private land up there harbors some absolute monsters on easy-to-draw tags, but you're never going to get on there. I'm just saying. And for the money you spend for a hunting license, it's much more expensive now than it used to be back when we drew like a $74 hunting license plus $8 app. But Bronson... Now it's doubling more of that. So are wages. Still random. So are wages. Yes. We were broke back then. However, if you had the compelling argument...

What did you make yearly salary when you drew? I don't know. Well, let's kick it back to 2000. You were paying me. I wasn't. I wasn't. Okay. It was the company. Somebody else in your family. Yeah. So, but when I drew 2004, me, me too. I'm saying 30, 35k. Oh, yeah. Bro. That's what I started. That's not my wife, too. She brought in 18 or something like that, teaching, you know, doing something. Anyway, I'm just saying there was tough times then, and we, and we, We found the money to apply. If they had more deer, elk, and antelope, it's nice to have random sheep and goat tags. The odds are still pretty tough. But if they had more, the biggest problem I have is the cost to tag availability, and that goes back to the 3% and 5% deer, elk, and antelope. It's out of whack with what you got to pay to even play the game.

So, anyway. Having said all that, I do kind of like Oregon. It's just a long drive. I mean, and we about froze to death on your sheep hunt. Dude, that was September, and it was cold. I remember laying in the bed of the truck. Remember, I had the double forwarder rack, and we were sleeping under it. I freaking froze to death. You really want to go to Washington next? Geez. No, okay, I'm just gonna say the positive. What's the positive? And then I'll say a quick negative, and then we'll move on. The positive? They've got good quality. They've got clam season. Clam digging? Yeah. I always get the razor clam emails from them. I mean, I've seen a picture. I had to look them up once, so I knew what they were. I can't think of them positive. The problem I have, with the elk and deer, as non-resist for elk and deer, you have to buy a general elk and deer tag.

You're talking four or five hundred bucks a piece to even play the deer and elk draw. I don't like that. I think that's... We don't even do the general in states that are close to us at times. Let alone Washington. Yeah. So, anyway. Everybody up there can... I know you're laughing. Say, alright, stay out. Okay, we are. So, moving on. And that's $110 for every sheep, every goat, every moose application. You know what I mean? And your odds are one in 2,000 or one in whatever. I mean, go look. Twenty-five, six-plus years squared. It's all right. Let's move on to Idaho. Well, I've got to stay next to them just because otherwise we're going to forget. What I like about Idaho is, I like the random draw times. Have I drawn amazing tags? I've drawn a couple. Mid to upper tier, probably, not lower. The frustrating thing, I mean, going back to the choices, I mean, one valid choice.

So, sometimes, like, I drew like a 42 tag for deer, you know? And I killed like a 32-inch, weak forked buck, big ol' freakin' nice eye guards. Chris, you were with me on that one. That was cold. We froze the trailer. Yeah, that was cold. Very cold. We froze the trailer rock solid. Remember that? Yeah, it was. Your water. Your water. Negative digits, for sure. I'm in the middle of nowhere. Hey, those are good times. But, anyway, never have drawn like a 45 Bennett Mountains, you know, for deer or a 54 elk. And I applied for 54 pretty religiously. Never drawn, you know, sheep, goat. I have drawn moose. How about that? November season. Yeah. I was on a deer pretty much. We got deer. Yeah, you know. And I drew, and you didn't. And you know what's great is I got, I quenched, that was 2007, and I got to tag along with Jason and quench my thirst for it.

You're hunting Shiraz. No, you do. You got max points in Montana, and you continue to apply. It's the only place I do. In other words, that did it for me. I touched one. That one, hey, we were young and aggressive, and this moose quarter is freaking heavy, dude. Yeah, I was. Geez. Anyway, so... I like the randomness, and it's hard back a minute ago when I said, hey, what's the perfect point system?

I like that states are different. I really do. I like that there's some, that there's predictability, and I like some, like Idaho, that when you have a late application period, or if you decide to do sheep, it's completely random. You've got as good a chance as anybody for the first time applying. I like that about Idaho because I mainly use Idaho as a, I'll call it a secondary. I never base my plans around Idaho, so I go as aggressive or less aggressive based on what I already have in my schedule. This year, I'm going to be playing in Idaho. I skipped the sheep because I'm going to be getting into Idaho. Do you like the fact that if you do sheep or goat or moose, you can't do anything else in the state? I don't mind it from an odd standpoint, I think, for the moose, sheep, and goat. Obviously, the resident odds are the best of any state anywhere, period.

It's not even up for debate. The resident sheep, moose, and goat odds. That's true. Wait, wait, wait. What about OTC Montana sheep? Well, that's not an odd. That is, you write the check and you go hunt sheep. You think you need to be 100% transparent? Well. Go ahead. I like it for that. What I don't like about it, it's gotten more expensive. We've done the math. If you apply, if you buy a hunting license... What really frustrates me is they raised our rates because they went to caps, non-resident caps. Yeah, they're general OTC with caps for non-resident. And so, because they restricted us, they raised our rates like up through the roof and didn't touch residents. If you apply for deer and elk, buy their hunting license applying for deer and elk, you're going to pay $225-ish and don't get any points for it.

If you add sheep to that, you front the tag fee, they keep your convenience fee off it. It's like $325, and you don't get a point. So, the one thing I don't like is I think their costs have greatly outpaced maybe what their... Non-resident costs. The risk reward. But the residents are cheaper than free. That's what I'm saying. I mean, and I just think, and they're always complaining about budgets, raise the residents. Raise the residents. Like they always are. Like, there's a lot of room there to bring their tags up to what they're really worth. I love that you get to hunt wolves, and I love it. I love that we've smashed them. We've all been up there. It's a thrill. It's a rush. Got a new wolf set up. It's enriched my life, those hunts. They have. Tell me they haven't changed your life. I take pride in killing it. It's a trophy. Like, it's...

But what's amazing is they're hunting them very aggressive. There's bounties. Oh, yeah. And you know, there actually seems like the elk could do it better. They're getting back on the ground. Yeah, they are. It's a return. They're getting a return, and it does feel like we're making some headway. But yeah, we like Idaho. It's treated us well. We've hunted it hard. A little bit on the high side, that's my biggest complaint. Getting up there in tag fees, non-refundable application fees for what you get, and no points. Yeah, and I just think that, you know, the OTC with caps, I just, I don't know, I don't know why it rubs me a little bit. Yeah, you mean because you're still sowing residence unlimited. Oh yeah, and for next to nothing. And I'm not saying that everybody should be gouged, just keep up with the top.

That's all. Your wages have increased. They just have. And so, anyway, but take it out on the non-res, and then don't appreciate them. That's fine. Whatever. So, alright, let's move right along. Which state we at? Nevada. Let's try Nevada. I love Nevada. Yeah. I do. What do you love about it? Just the memories. You love the past. Chris, we've got good memories. Chris has killed a freaking giant. Isn't the memories like that's what's the best thing about Nevada? When you get a tag in Nevada, they don't manage for much average. In a few places, you could say for deer, they average a little bit more for opportunity and average, but they have scarcer resources because it's drier. Scarcer? More scarce. How's that? Resources. Whatever. Fewer resources. I don't know. Keep going. They have to try to make more with less. That's another way to say.

What I like is Jack, he said it best two years ago on a podcast, he said, we like to produce It's a quality product, and the customer, the hunter, is our customer. I like that mentality. I think he actually kind of revolutionized that a little bit. It seems like a lot of the states are taking on a little bit more of their customer, not somebody we're just out to catch poaching or on some little tweaky little weird law and make an example out of them. It has been state pitted against hunter a bit. Yeah, and they have, feels like, been the trendsetter on that. And case in point, their results, Their deadline was the 10th of May. That was like, I don't know, a few days ago. Their results are the 20th of May at 6 p.m. Friday. They moved it up from Midnight Madness to 6 p.m. on a Friday to make it happy hour. To let the adventure begin, you know, and they wanted people to barbecue.

Now, what other state... Name another state that gives two... Craps. Beep. Chris, add the beep right there. Craps. Craps about that. I can't think of one. They don't care about barbecues. Who cares if they want to do it? They don't care about barbecues. Also, go apply for Nevada and their system compared to some of the other states. Smooth. And if you mess up or want to change your mind... Free. Free. What I can't get over is all the other states when you apply. Okay? You apply, let's say the deadline's June 1st, I'm making that up. And you apply May 1st, but something changes or you made a mistake, and you can't change that. But if you're a procrastinator, you can apply your application on June 1st and you're fine.

Why can't from May 1st to June 1st you change your freaking application? The application period's open. Every state should be that. You like to plug and play. It's not like it's all on paper anymore. No! It's true. You're not going to have to pull him out of a stack. Again, it's because they hate us. It feels like the states hate us. Those states hate us. That's right. Not just non-residents, they just hate laughter. It feels like they hate happy people. If you let anybody apply up until a certain date, you should be able to amend your application up until that date. That's just this day and age of computers and in and out, and you check it in your Don't even check out, you just switch. What's wrong with that? How hard is it? I get it on this paper. How about Utah being set in stone so early? So early.

And you know what's nice? If you're going to have us, and they're looking at changing it, and we'll see how big of a difference it makes, but if you're going to have it to where the draw results come out, middle to end of May, whatever, for any state we're talking about, then bring it up. Well, your point is, is start, let us apply, open up the app period, April 1 or April 15 or whatever. Don't, A, don't hold on to our money or make us front the money so, you know, in some states or whatever, so early. And then also, there's planning that takes place. And so, some states come out early, and if you drop Arizona elk or whatever, it might make a difference on what I apply in other states, right? And so, that's your point, is no matter what, Utah's going to be somewhat late because of the quota setting and different

But, don't be so early, because we've got other states we're working with, too. It's such a pet peeve for me. It's the 21st century, like Chris said. There's almost no, I want to say no paper apps. I'm going off memory. It's over. The era of paper apps is over. They don't have to put them in the file. Name a paper app you put in. I don't. To my knowledge, I can't somewhere. Maybe somewhere off of 10. Yeah, well, I'm talking a state-funded thing. So, if states can turn their draws around, and I know it's going to be, hey, well, we have a lot. Here's our numbers in Colorado, here's our numbers in Utah, and we have way more wraps to process. There is some truth to that. I'm not pretending that, hey, California's numbers then get out in 10 days, or Nevada's get out in 10 days, so should everybody else.

I'm not that naive to think that that's the case, but it is a push of a button. It is electronic. It is, you know, number rankings. You can do a lot better. Montana's quit. So, the one thing I... Okay, so Nevada, the one thing... But they are expensive, and we talked about that. They're expensive. But Adam, by choice, my kids are really, I mean, the non-resident hunting license fee for a kid, 15 bucks. Oh, yeah. But then once they hit 18, you're going to swallow hard. Right. But you don't have to buy it. No. You can have them in the draw. You can enter them in with their six to eight points, or however many they've accumulated from 12 to 18, and six points, whatever that is, and just send them to drive. You may or may not have done that. I may or may not have done that. I'm just saying, I want my kids in. But, at times, it's maybe not worth it, right? It's costly.

They got a lot of add-ons. You can add PIWs and Silver States, and I know I cannot do those if I don't want them. You cannot do them. Those are just opportunities. That's right. But you cannot do them. Did you do them? Yeah, I did. Yeah, me too. And that's by choice. So, we get mad, ah, they got a grand of my money. But it was by choice. I mean, I could have, you know, streamlined my app a bit and saved some money. I don't like, and this has nothing to do with the game and fish or Department of Wildlife, is Nevada can be very volatile from year to year in the mule deer world. I don't like the volatility. Well, dude, that's God. It is. It's God, Bronson. I'm just talking about the state in general. It's an act of God that they're in such a drought. It's irreparable drought. But I'm just talking, I don't like the volatility from year to year in mule deer hunting in Nevada.

I don't like it. And you know what's amazing? You know what Trail Cameras did for us? Prove it. Oh, yeah. It proved the drought. You got specific deer, a torn ear, whatever. You know, you got deer year to year. 200 to 210, the next year he's like 160. On the same water, there's like 10 deer on one water. You know it. He's the buck, split ear, blind in one eye, and he's 160. That's right. And so, it proved the effect that drought can have over there. And it's drought sensitive, and we're in a drought. And so, it's no fun, right? And that's what I'm talking about with memories. We know when the good years are there, we're glad we have the points because

When there's a good year out there, it's unbelievable. So, what's next, Carter? Where do you want to go? We're working east. You pick. Might as well do Arizona, because I don't want to do Utah. Yeah. How about that? Arizona. What do you like? Positives. The positives is, I would say, similar to Nevada. For the most part, if you draw a tag in Arizona, it is a great tag. Now, there's a very few exceptions, but when it comes to antelope, off the charts. Yeah, it's like drawing a sheep tag in terms of odds, but hey, we both draw them one. Let's see, you killed an 87-inch, and you killed a .350s bull in about 45 minutes. Yeah. Thanks, Arizona. And you've killed some. And deer, I'm waiting for my time, but hey, you killed a .270-plus buck. How about that? Well, what I don't like is I don't draw often enough. No, that is the downside.

The odds are worse than, like, Nevada has, compared to Arizona, when I would say quality mule deer tags, they're much lower in Arizona. The ceiling is way higher. Some of the strip kaibab northern stuff is awesome, but collectively, that's, what, a thousand tags or less? Oh, yeah. Elk, you've got the option to go November. I don't normally do that in November. I'm either going to go arch, I'm usually going archery, and they're tough to get. But they have options. That's the thing. We call them skews. Yeah. You know what I mean? It spreads everybody out. Two choices really matter. You mean like the November... If you want to archery hunt elk in November, you mean? Come on. Stuff like that. Why'd you go there? Well, yeah, they do. Every time I say it, I didn't like it, I didn't enjoy it, and we got guys that apply for it because I did it.

I think that the fact that you went there once, you're hiding something. And no, there was big... Trust me, he's not applied. I hear about it. I share an office nerve in him, and he's not going back. Sometimes you can't make it happen, and that one was a little bit different. It was also a tough year. Yeah. But anyway, I... And I chose to hunt in an area that was a little bit tougher. I mean, I've hunted coos deer there, and I thought, this would be a great archery hunt, and it was, but I didn't go there. I should've. And it's within the same unit. I'm just saying, like, you know, I chose because I wanted to hunt the biggest bulls, and the biggest bulls were not stockable with a bow. All right, keep going. Let's talk about... Keep going. Let's talk about the draw. Desert sheep. I mean, hey. That's awesome. It is.

If you can draw, hey, you've drawn one. I've had another one of my good friends have drawn one recently in the last three years. But let's talk about some problems, okay? The fact that they're drawing, they're one of the states that you apply, and if you screw up, you're done. And luckily, they added the point guard, and that's a croc. Yeah, and they love point guard so much, they doubled it. Yeah. They doubled down, $10 now, or $25. So, to me, it's a croc. You know, the fact that you can't change it, but yeah, we'll charge you if you thought to pay that.

You know what I find interesting? And the other thing is, you've got to log in, you've got to check out for deer, and log back, and check out, and go back and do your next species. And they're prone to making 14 different ID numbers for you in accounts, because, you know, one index will pull you up, and they'll get you in the draw. Now you've got two or three accounts. How about you buy a hunting license, but the left hand doesn't talk to the right, and you have to go re-plug in the number? Yeah, it'll pull in a number there, but what you don't know is that that number's already expired.

Just, I mean, it's just an archaic system. It is. And we're being brutally honest, but you point to one person, one, call me, call us, email us, email chris at epicoutdoors.com. Tell them that you're happy. Now, I'm not talking about you drew tags from Arizona. I'm talking about the application process of applying you and your family. It goes back to paper applications and fronting the fees like Colorado used to do. It keeps people out. There's some people that didn't apply in Arizona because the system is so terrible. It doesn't keep them out. It just makes you... It doesn't help the odds. You sit down with a family of five and have to check out for Two Species Eats and buy their license all hand. It's a... No, it's an afternoon. It's an afternoon, Bronson. You and I both did it. Try managing an application service where you do a lot more people than that, and it becomes...

Luckily, we got good gals. We do. They crank it. But they have a lot of room to upgrade their draw process. I'm just going to leave it at that. I agree. I agree 100%. And so, yeah, it's not customer friendly. Let's sum it up. The worst. Not customer friendly. Probably the worst. One of the worst. One of the top three. And they don't, they just act like they don't care. But having said that, they are kind of enjoying some of these new little SKUs. They're enjoying those little tags on the end and a few little revenue generators. Look at her cover book. Well, and that came from one of those. But why do you have that? Because your budgets are stressed. And it goes back to just appreciate people, appreciate the non-resident. We don't take that much down there. Make it easier for us. We'll keep playing the game. You'll get more money. You'll get more money if it's easy.

Back to Nevada, I mean, these guys are proactive. They want to do the button same as last year, as easy and as fast as you can, right? But if you get through one or two people in Arizona, you might just go, ah, that son of mine doesn't care about Arizona. He's happy doing what we've got going, and we're going to leave it at that. They're $160 license fee and $15 per piece. It's pretty easy. Especially in this world, everything is, you want something right now, right? When you want to sit down and check out, like when I have to buy anything online, if it's too complicated, I start checking out. Well, people are knee-jerk, like what Chris is saying, like when you're ready to buy something, you're willing to buy at this moment, but if you talk to me tomorrow, I might change my money. Well, and if it takes me 10 hours to give you my money that I worked hard for, I might think twice about it.

Well, I said I'm checking out. I mean, I'm really, I'm checking out. I'm leaving the website, not checking out and buying it. So, that was my wrong choice of words. I mean, you're checking. I'm checking. I'm not giving up. I'm giving up. I'm tapping out. I'm tapping out. I'm putting another tab, and I'm doing the same Google search for the thing that I'm looking for, starting over. But lots of positive, and so you hate to see it. And same thing, we've got the over-the-counter deer tags. Nothing should be managed with over-the-counter tags. I mean, it just, it is what it is. Feels like the air is over. I know it's hard to give away, but every state's done it. Now they've got thresholds, and that's gonna, those are gonna be met in a lot of these hunts during the August season, and you're gonna shove a bunch of hunters in the, whatever's left.

It's December and January. It's because people are going to go do it. They're just going to look at the list and go, hey, let's go learn a new unit. Sounds like it's a band-aid for long-term management productivity. Big in, drought sensitive, and there's just, all right, well, let's move on. We love it, though. We do. We love Arizona. We talked a little bit about New Mexico earlier. I think we've hammered them pretty good. They've got non-residents hard in their crosshairs right now, which, okay, it is. They've got a commission that's rogue right now, and everything's on the table. Who knows what's going to happen? So, that's hard. You know, there's so much angry. Bronson, just as a... People are circumventing boards and just going straight to legislatures and stuff, because there's so much anger.

And part of it is warranted. I'm going to defend it just a little bit. Part of it is warranted. The boards haven't listened to maybe the local, call it a cab, a rack, whatever. It depends on what state you're in. The local public input, they've done what they've wanted to do at times. We've seen it, personally. And then, you know, at some point, to get any change at all, you've got to go around it. But at the same token, when you get something in state law, try to get that changed. I agree. Versus a rule or a policy on the wildlife board level. I don't like it. It doesn't make me feel good. I don't like it. It's literally somebody playing king, just like we're talking about being king right now. And it's not going to happen, because you don't even like politics. No, I'm heading to the hills. All right, so, are we in Utah now? New Mexico, we skipped it. So, we can do Colorado if you want.

Yeah, let's do Colorado. What do you like? I like the options that... I probably have a few more things to say that I don't like, but I like that you have something, no matter your point level when it comes to deer, that you can go do. I do like that. You can force the draw with zero, one, two, three, four, five, however many points you have, you can force the draw. Currently, you can with the current quotas and stuff. That's right. You've been able to. I like that. Plus, you've got turn back options, occasionally landowner tag to be able to go. I like that. I use it as a deer state every year in my calendar. I like that option. I don't hunt elk much there. I mean, I could, should, but I just don't. But from a deer standpoint, I love that you can force it. If I've got three points, five, six, ten, and I want to go that year, there's something I can usually try to do that with.

I love it. And it's predictable. That's probably the number one thing I like about Colorado. And they grow big deer. They can grow it. But I don't like a 100% preference point draw on deer elk. I don't like it. There's no random. We've got the hybrid. What do you mean? Well, that's a smoke and mirrors. I know. We've talked about it before. I'm just trying to get a little bit of a reaction out of Bronson for a minute. But I think you shouldn't be all preference on deer and elk, I mean, or sheep or anything. And sheep and moose and goat aren't, but you need to have some random tags. And if you're now going to be looking at cutting non-resident portions of tags, and it's 100% preference, you haven't seen anything in the world of point creep until you're going to see it coming down the pipe. That's right.

Because if you think it's bad now, and then you cut non-resent tags in half, and give no random tags, you're flirting with rats jumping from a sink of shit. Well, and their point system, kind of on a little bit of a different subject, but their point system for sheep, goat, moose, it's hard to wrap your arms around it that it's helping you. And we have people that are getting three points, and they're not participating in the point system. Yeah. And so, if their point system was better in regards to those three. It's more easily quantifiable, and I know a statistician will tell me I can quantify it down to... Oh, quantify it, but you're not getting my money. Quantify it so you get my money. Yeah, square your points, something to where you can mathematically know how many entries you are, and calculate your odds a little bit easier than it all initiates based on your initial random number,

and then it gets divided by a... Feels like there's a lot of hate there for how much we support their state. I think with the non-resident over-the-counter elk tags, I mean, dude, how many non... We found that state. I mean, I don't know what the percentage is. We could have been a little more prepared and had that in every state. We don't even have any notes. We didn't even know what we were talking about today. We started talking about glass not full. Well, yeah, it's kind of not so full. Morphing not into it. But Chris, I want to hear what Chris loves about Colorado besides all the 200-inchers. Go ahead, Chris. I could do a couple of things. Yeah. I like, as Adam said, you can go. You can go.

There's an opportunity, whether you have one point or ten points or whatever. You can go to Colorado. Nothing's stopping you. If you want to draw a tag, you can go. It may be a terrible experience, but you can go. That's one thing I like about it as well. I like their, in the past, it's been a very good opportunity. A lot of these units that only take three to four points are great hunts. They can be. That's another thing I like about it. I don't like, it feels like a lot of decisions are made, like we're saying, politically. It gets worse. And as Denver and as the state goes a little bit more left, it feels like hunting is becoming a bad word almost in Colorado. Yeah, it is. And just look at wolves. They pass to bring wolves into the state, and it's not going to change. They'll talk about marijuana all day long every day, but they hate the hunter.

Yeah, and you get out in these rural communities, and they want hunting. The rural communities. It funds their economies. Yes, it does. But yet, they have zero say in the actual law because the law comes out of Denver. The millions. Similar to Portland, Oregon, or Washington, or Reno, Nevada, or Vegas. I mean, you know, there's... All right. I like it. I hope we're not heading that way in Utah, and we're not talking about Utah yet, but hey, look at us. Are we demographically built differently than, say, Colorado, where the masses live in Colorado? What I do like about Utah, and we're gonna go there. Let's just do it. Are we? Yeah, let's get over it. All right. Is there's some interesting skews here. I mean, we, you know, what I... Why is that? Why do they have to make new skews? Because of the season dates they... And there's...

You gotta spread people out because there's no tags. You got point creep like crazy. There's no tags, and the reason there's no tags is because we have to have quality because of a number of reasons. We've had to hunt our elk in the rut since inception. That's right. And so, there's some change that may happen coming down the pipe there, hopefully. What do you like? Besides food folks and fun and family in the state. I haven't killed a deer here in this state since 2010. I was golfing this morning, and I was talking with the guy who was golfing. He drew a great deer tag this year. He said he's almost to turn 50, and it's his second limited entry tag. He's drawn an elk and a deer. And I was thinking, what have I done? Not second deer, the second total. Second. And I was counting me. I've drawn an antelope.

That was back when I was like a teenager when you could apply for everything, because you drew a bison. You've hunted antelope in a lot of states. I've killed like three bucks in my life, and you know about them all. Okay, keep going. But, yeah, I've drawn that, an elk, and a deer in my life. We're dang near 50. But you've had some general deer tags, which would be like over-the-counter Idaho tags. Okay, yeah, but I'm just talking, because of some of the things that we're talking about, we have to have, and it's all getting worse. So, what would you... What I do like, I do like that in Utah that we have two systems, but the result of that two systems for deer Our limit entry deer, we got like a thousand limit entry deer tags in the state, and good luck ever getting one. I mean, that's terrible. Nevada's got dang near a thousand in one area

ten, they call it. And maybe it's 1,500, but it's not very many in Utah. At one time, it was like 1,000 to 1,500, and we had like 97,000 general tags. It was like roughly one or two percent. But I do like a general, you know, it allows you to take your kids and Do stuff like that. And those aren't over-the-counter just to qualify. They're on a draw, too, with a separate point system. Well, anyway, there's some things, but having said that, there are some things that might need to change, you know. Again, there's some change that's needed. I don't know all the right answers. If you were king of Utah, and a couple things. I mean, you know what's funny? Non-residents can apply for everything, you know. We have to do one of the once-in-a-lifetimes, and then deer elk or antelope. And I don't mind that, because I know what would happen, because I see what happened to the non-resident pool.

Every odd antelope now takes off the charts points. But part of it is, you know, again, the tag quotas, you think we're bad, the non-resident's bad too. Well, and the reason why they did that, and just to be frank, the only reason they did that, the only reason is to keep non-resident supplying for the state and buying the hunting license. We know that. We were there at the meeting. Because they were gonna, you're gonna do two, and now we're gonna raise the hunting, make you buy a hunting license and start doing that? Let's let them play for everything and let them give this good, warm, and fuzzy butterfly and rainbow feeling that they're going to get points for all these species. And it really doesn't mean anything. Get your draw run faster, Utah. Chris, Chris killed a great buck here in Utah. You like that? I like that, but how many limited entry deer tags

have I drawn? Zero. Will I ever draw a limited entry elk? Probably not. What are you playing So, for right now, which one of the limited entry species are you in on? Deer. Deer. And I'm 20 years in. How about sheep? I have 20 points for everything that I can apply for. So, deer, sheep, and then... That means you're about 34, 35 years old. Somewhere along there, yeah. How about Nevada? There's residents over there. You start putting in at 14. My bad, I'm 20 years old. How about Nevada has some of their residents have drawn multiple desert sheep tags? That's a pet fever, Mike. A little bit. Alright, okay. Well, anything else in Utah? That's the hard thing for me is maybe I will draw a deer tag at some point in my life, but elk I probably will never draw an elk tag in Utah. And that's kind of disappointing because it's a great state for elk.

It is. There's some things that need to change on the elk in the management plan, and it is brewing. The management plan is up. Whether something gets changed, whether the gnashing of teeth is so loud that it can't get changed, It needs to change. Hunting elk every day in the rut with rifles, it's just, if it's ever going to change, that's where it's going to have to change. You're going to have to shift some season days. I just hate hunting females when we're under carrying capacity, to appease a few landowners. I hate that. Like, Chris, you've seen it firsthand. And that's extreme. I'm just saying. Then you add private land buck tags in November for a month. I'm not I'm a fan of that. You got people running up and down the main streets, shooting deer off the road. Okay, Chris is getting angry. Chris, where are we going next? So, I guess Wyoming.

Hey, hey, hey, what I like is that the residents can hunt over-the-counter on places that it takes me six, well, really, let's call it region H, let's call it four or five to nine, ten points. I like that. I like that. They get to go every year, and they get mad at me. They get mad at you. They hate you. You're such a liar. It just ticks me off. What do you really like about it? What I like is that they're, like the general elk, for example, I think has amazing potential. You could hunt, you could legitimately hunt 330 plus bulls, if not even 350 plus in some areas.

Every three to four years. Three to four to five years, and that may or may not change. They're bursting at the seams. Hopefully, they let loose on some non-resident tags. The tag quota was arbitrarily set years ago. They don't even really know what it was based off of. Said all that, you know, I just wish we could, I wish they wouldn't, again, kind of a subsidy forcing us to go with an outfitter in wilderness areas. I hate that. But, in a wilderness area, I'd probably hire a guy. Willingly. In some cases. Willingly, I would. You know, in some cases, dude, I'm not going to be going and hunting 51 or 59 or 56 on a late season or something. I mean, I'm just not set up for the cold temperatures, you know, and the miles and the depth of snow that can occur, whatever. I'm just, you know, probably would go outfitted. I mean, there's cases that would make sense.

But there's also low elevation wilderness. We ran into some of that in southern Wyoming. Dude, it's just a river. Unit 78 for deer. It's a creek. On one side, you can't hunt, one side you can't. It's roadless. It's roadless, but it's designated wilderness, and that changes things. Yeah, because some bunny hugger just thought that that should be wilderness, and it doesn't even make sense. Some of it doesn't even look like wilderness. You can walk down there and fish that river, but you better not shoot a buck. So, we don't like it. I don't think it's really fair. I don't. I don't think it's fair. It's a croc. Be that bold to say it's croc. But we do appreciate the outfitters. We send them clients. Like, I mean, we're all for it. Bronson, you're in the outfitting industry. I was in the outfitting industry years ago. Like, I'm just saying, it's not like we're anti-outfitters.

We have total perspective on this, literally, in every angle. It's just that that one isn't right. We book guys to go in the wilderness. It's the only state in the nation that has that, Pittman and Lord 48. I mean, Alaska sets things on species, you know, bears, big bears, sheep and goats. You've got to hire somebody who's a non-resident. They're talking about continuing with that and doing outfitter tags in Wyoming. Meaning, in the outfitted draw tags, like similar to New Mexico. I call them subsidies. I don't like them. I don't like that. I mean, it's a public resource. But we've drawn tags, Chris. We've drawn tags in New Mexico on the outfitter tags. Yeah, well, that's their system, and it feels like when they've gone to the, when they're, the pike keep shrinking, and the good moisture years, we go that way. It's like, I want to try to draw a tag. This is a year.

And it's better drawing odds, right? Yeah. And we do the two-day thing. You have to, you know, hire a guy for two days, and so you play the system, and you play the game. And there's, the outfitters down there are like, well, you know, I would never throw a $20 bill on the ground, so I'll take you for two days. And that makes sense. It all makes sense, but they kind of force you to play that little game. It's a little bit of, it's a bit of a game. All right, where are we at? My Wyoming, I like Colorado. I like that it is somewhat predictable. I thought you were going to say you like the antelope. No, in Wyoming. I've shot one up there in Wyoming. Did I say Wyoming? You said Colorado. You said Colorado, but I thought we were still in Wyoming. Hey, we're done with Colorado. The Evergreen or whatever your state is. The Wolf State. We're done talking about you right now.

So, Wyoming. I thought you would say that you like the antelope because you're kind of an antelope guy. Don't try to spin this harder. Everybody knows that's your thing. So, I like the predictability. I do think 75-25 is a little steep on the split. Meaning? With the sheep, moose, and goat, meaning max point holders get 75%, random only get 25. Okay, I was thinking you were possibly thinking non-resident quotas, you know. Well, where I'm going with this is now, on the moose, sheep, and goat that have been reduced to 10% going into 2023, you shrunk that pie small, and now you're dividing it 75-25. There's almost no random tags left. And this is the type of razor edge thing I was alluding to earlier. There's almost no carrot there to dangle. The carrot is a shred of a carrot down there. Think about the point fee up there. Has it been worth it? No.

It's not worth it for somebody with under 18 points. And so, people were opting out, right? How much money did they leave on the table? Again, it's not all about money, but obviously they have budgets, and it is about money. Yeah, that's right. And if you're going to go to so few of tags, and you're going to have one or two random tags, and you don't have a quantifiable random draw with squared points or whatever, what are they talking about? Trying to make it more incentive. They know that non-residents might be leaving their state. They know that we're responsible for over 70

It's a 90% of their budget. Yeah, might be trying to make a squared point draw for the random draw. Well, there's going to be big boy ramifications from this, and who knows if the deer elk and antelope's coming next, we've been told, and we've, you know, the resident group that's up there. It's coming. We're planning for it, whether it passes or not. We know the guiding outfitters are going to fight it hard because it's a lot bigger number of tags, deer elk and antelope. But from what I understand, they're talking guide tags. So, I think there's some change coming. So, anyway, it's, yeah, I think we beat it to death. Having said that, we've hunted Wyoming multiple times, and we've played the system, and it's worth playing the system. It's worth getting deer and elk points. Points are, at this point,

30, 40, you know, 50 bucks. Yeah, 50 bucks for elk, 40 for deer, 30 for animal, plus incidentals. Relatively affordable to do that, build points. Kids are cheaper, 10, 10, and 10. No-brainer from 10 or 12 to, what, 18. Yep, so, alright, well, good. Okay. What else? I like, I like, There's part of this I love and part of it that I don't love, but I do like, if you happen to be a guy that forgot to put in, you can buy points in the summer. Not only that, everybody has to buy a point in the summer. Yeah, I don't like that. That's why I said there's two parts of it. I don't like that. Wyoming, you went backwards. I thought Chris was going to say he likes the bears in Wyoming. What's the opposite of evolution, of evolving, but you're going now the other way? You used to charge and you want to do a point or not? Reverting.

Do you want a point, or do you not want a bell point? Yeah, I do. Well, now you just apply, and you're on the draw, and then you've got to remember in the summer to go get your point. That's dumb. I applied, and I was unsuccessful. We've talked to many people. We splattered in our magazine that you still got to go back for deer, elk, and antelope and do that. They allow you to pick it for sheep and moose. I know. Let me just still pick it for the other so I can forget about you in the summer. Anyway, it's just a... So, I like the fact that you can go buy it if you need to, but I don't like that if you put in for the draw, you're not getting a point. I like you can amend. I like you can amend pretty easy. Yeah, they've come up with times. They've changed some things. I like that.

And I like they got some big deer. Yeah, well, I like that. They got great antelope. You've been there one more time than I have. Come on, how do you know? You've been twice, I've been once. Maybe more. How do you know? I know I've been once. You didn't know me at 13 years old. Okay. I was a killing sucker. You've been at least once more than me, but probably more. You're right.

Kansas, there's one thing I need to bring up there. Oh, you're blowing. Let's do it. Well, it's the next state. I'm moving east. Let's do it. I thought you were gonna go to Montana. I like that it's cheap to get a point. That's why I had to start that way to be, you know, follow my own game rules. I hate that you can't do a mule, put in for mule deer, just mule deer with your points. I hate how you have to draw a whitetail tag first for about 400 bucks. How about discrimination at its finest? The residents can hunt with a rifle, but we get muzzlers.

Or bows. Yeah. And you can't draw the mule deer, you know, unless you draw the white-tailed tag first, and then draw separate, no points allowed, random mule deer stat. But not rifle. Not rifle. Muzzle order. I mean, just come on. Hey, I shot one with a rifle. Yeah, with your governor tag. We've talked about that. I'm just saying. Like, $2,100 governor tag. I'm just saying. It's wrong. That's... But having said that, I like the fact that you could draw at least every other year. Yeah. Usually every year, but... It's more like every other year. I just fixed the mule. I was to put in for mule there. Whatever. Do it right. It's one of those things that doesn't make sense. Oh, we haven't talked about Montana. Whoa.

Yeah, that's where I thought you were headed. Sorry. Sorry, Montana. Oh, it's okay. I just think you just want to kind of increase your moose odds and so you don't want to talk about it. Hey, I got shut down. I thought I had a tip this year. Hey. I just hate how convoluted, complex, what I like about Montana. Oh, I haven't hunted there much. I mean, you and I went up there for deer and elk, and haven't hunted it much. What I hate...okay, well... Love. You gotta start with love. Well, I like the fact that I drew a deer tag, and I can get Ashley an over-the-counter tag with me. Yeah. I like that. And Justin, probably take them both. Youth. I like that. Under 18 or whatever. Yeah, I like that. And that's the only thing I can think about that I can like. I think what I like is that I've had the option to hunt big bulls, but I chose not to.

But I know that there is... We're getting ready to. We're building the points for it. I know that there's big bulls to be had on pretty easy... But the reason that you're not, and I'm not, and haven't been for five years applying up there is because of the convoluted... Oh, wait, I need to start the good thing. Terrible. Yeah, you need to start the positive. The good thing is, is what? I've had a goat tag in Montana. Okay, thank you. Moving on. You did. You killed a goat. 20... Wrote the pack tree. You wrote the pack tree. Wore the pack tree in the wilderness. I love that. I love that.

There's so many guys that have run in a pack tray. Chris, have you? Heck no. You should have seen Aaron and I's face when that guy, he went up there, he lived there a couple of years and met this guy, and he was an awesome dude. He shows up at the horses, we're going in, he swings open the horse trailer, they waltz out, we tie him up, and he goes over there and he goes, looks, we've got a problem. He goes over there, and there's one saddle and two packs. Nowadays, Bronson, you would have driven to town and bought a saddle. I had sold it on eBay. I am not a horse guy. I know they sell for fives or tens of thousands of dollars. No, the good ones. Saddles. How much is it? Just a- You can get a crap one for five to eight hundred bucks. Way better than a pack tree.

I would have wrote that check so fast. So fast. So fast. You know those that are in the old cowboy bars that are just tacked up to the wall? Those are worth some money usually. I would have bought that though. Anyway, regressing, but I absolutely despise their two-step process for deer and elk tags in Montana. And what's funny is, you feel like you learn, you feel like you, well, I'm applying. Well, meaning, you don't have points in various... Okay, you're building points, but my point is, you're not trying to draw an elk tag every year, because you've got to draw the general, and if you do, and don't draw the special, you're forefooting that, and it's a thousand bucks minus 20% every single time you draw the general, and it's convoluted, and it's a pain in the butt. You could be in the draw as a group together for the general and apply for different special limited entries.

You know what I mean? I mean, every year it seems like we learn, and it's not necessarily this case, but it feels like you've got to relearn the entire process and all the little nuances. There's crazy nuances. Oh yeah, that the preference point draw for the general tags, the 75% goes to max, the other 25% goes in the random, but only to random people with zero points.

And if you play the point system, you have a point going into the draw, and so you, so like Wyatt. You just shot yourself in the foot. Wyatt, Wyatt. He beat the system. He did. So, he drew last year, and then this year he had to decide, am I going to give him the money for the point or not? And if I don't, I have better odds this year, but then I'll have, if I don't, but I'll have worse odds next year, because I won't have a point, the point from this year. That's right. But if I do buy it right now, I have worse odds. Worse odds this year, but better next year. And you're like, what? So, he just said, to heck with it, I'm not buying the point, and you draw again. How about that? And we know people with one or two points that didn't draw. There's just, it's just, you know, it's such a convoluted... A weird setup. And they want it that way, and again, it feels like they hate us.

Just not, not, not real friendly. Not a friendly app, sirs. And I know your residents up there are like, yeah, cry me a river. It's just, it's a, show me another state that you would have to jump through those hoops to play for elk, and say you'd like it. Be honest with yourself. It's terrible. Yeah. All right, guy. Okay. And I didn't burn my moose points thanks to a fellow... You didn't. No, I didn't burn my moose points. No, you tried. I tried. I had a tip from a listener thanks to the podcast, and it didn't work out. No. So, it was a story meant to be told. So, you're thanking him. I thanked him for a tip, but the bull's gonna die somewhere. But you also saved the money on the tag. How about that? Saved you some cash. Huh? Hey, I want those 22 or whatever points. Go on. Go on. Because you keep buying them. You're forced into buying them. They got you.

Say it. You're gonna say it out loud? They got me by the leash. All right, well... We probably need to thank a few people to keep this out there, and hey, we're gonna talk about maybe a bundle here at the end, too. So, I say it is draw, in all seriousness. There is a lot of good news coming out. Lots of good news. You know, I wrote that little blurb in my June magazine about all the state draw results that come out in May. We're like halfway through them, and they're still coming. But if you find out, you're getting good news, and you need a member experience list. I'm drawing Idaho sheep. That's still pending. But if you find out that you've got good news, need a member experience list, or an outfitter, give us a call, 435-263-0777. I'm going to draw in Nevada, too, Friday. This is two days from now. Me too. 6 p.m. Pacific time. What's it called again? Adventure Begins?

Well, yeah, they copied Maverick. Just Happy Hour. They couldn't call it Happy Hour. That's what it is. Adventure Begins. I'm just glad when they're excited about it, I'm excited about it. Yeah, we've had the Wyoming Elk come out today. It's kind of fun. I mean, we've had a lot of draws. Our guys, we drew some people, huh? Pretty impressive. The waves keep coming. Today, I've got some great more. A lot more draw results coming out, and then we've got some more deadlines, and we're applying like it's our job, Bronson. All right, keep going. What were we talking about? Speaking of this time. Oh, Stealth Cam. We have had some people draw tags, and it's kind of jarred some people to look at their inventory. Of course, some of these Cellcam, let's call them seasons, make it to where you've got to get them out, get them working, and then pull them back in.

And so, anyway, you may need a few cameras. If you do, give us a holler. 435-263-0777. Stealthcam.com. Go check out what they've got. We've got where we ordered heavy on two different models. We ordered, well, actually three models, cellular, and then kind of more of an upper-end camera that we're selling for a steal. Not too much over 100, and then mid, right there, I don't know, 55 bucks or something, on kind of a lower grade camera that's still awesome. Great coverage. I use them. Yeah, when you need a bunch of cameras, a bunch of coverage, and yep. And then we ordered some cellular cams as well. So anyway. Lock boxes, all that. And we got a few last year models that were blowing out. Anyway, first come, first serve. Give us a holler. I like it. It's just that time of year. Bronson, we're also doing a ton of optics, even some Vortex stuff, huh? How about that?

Oh, yeah. Well, it's that time of year, too. It's amazing. We say it every year, and then as soon as the draw results start coming out, people are like, I do this. You know, it's just like you draw an archery tag, you need a new bow or a setup, whatever. It's true. There's nothing like a great tag to make you really evaluate your gear, and if you need some optics, give us a call. We carry all the major brands, Swarovski, Zeiss, Leica, Vortex, Revik. So, anyway, give us a call, whether it's Bino, Spotting Scope, we are heavily inventoried. Heavily. We've done that deliberately. We got sick of waiting in bits and pieces and onesies and twosies. Having said that, if we run out of something... Well, we'll order for you still. We'll order, but the Bronx and some of them are back-ordered a little bit. So, I'm just saying, first come, first serve on some of that. That's right.

You know, don't wait too late if you need something. You better give us a call on that. Hey, we've done one of these before, but Vortex has been a great partner of ours over the years, from the start, actually, here at Epic Outdoors. And we did one of these bundles for a Razer HD 27-60x85 spotting scope, whether it's angled or straight, along with either a Summit Carbon 2 or Ridgeview Carbon tripod. We'll do the kit there. If you call and buy one of those kit, we'll do a special price on there, and we'll throw a Ranger 1800 rangefinder in for free.

Whoa. How about that? All right. I like it. We did one of those a while ago, and we blew a bunch out, and hey, I'm ready to do it again. Let's do it. It's time. Let's get them in people's hands that can use them, because they're not going to find deer and elk sitting in our safe. I like it. Hey, didn't we have a little something-something to give away? Well, yeah. Well, in the spirit of that, let's do it. Let's give away a Vortex item. Let's give away a pair of, what, Diamondbacks? Yeah. You know, whether you got just a truck vinyl or kids need vinyl. Should we do a Diamondback now and maybe a Rangefinder next time? Yeah, let's do a Biner. Okay. What are we going to do? How do we do that? Is it on social media, Chris, usually what you do, something like that? Yeah, let's do that. What's your little rules? Okay, yeah. There will be a Vortex post posted about this bundle.

Okay. If you share that post to your Instagram story. I like it. So, your odds are going to be pretty good. Instagram story, it disappears in 24 hours. Exactly. So, your odds will be pretty good. If you share that bundle, the Vortex bundle, to your story, Then you will be entered, and we're going to draw that on Friday the 27th. Okay. We'll be the deadline. I like it. Appreciate Phonescope and their support of us here at Epic Outdoors. Cheston's a good buddy. Of course, we talk about him often, maybe even a little too often. But we like him, and he's got great products. In fact, my phone, I love it. The case is on 24-7. Protects the phone. I like it. And anyway, you don't video it. It didn't happen. It's very easy to video with it, take photos and whatnot. We've seen the photos and whatnot, and in this day and age, quality optics out there, it's pretty incredible.

Chris, we've even put out TV shows using phone scope footage. That's right, we have. We don't even care anymore. Unbelievable. Yeah, and if you get a new phone, or if you get a new spotting scope, or something like that, you might need to tweak your phone scope. So, keep it in mind. P-H-O-N-E-S-K-O-P-E dot com. That's right. Everybody, stick with us. We do have a little bit of a bonus, let's call it a bonus footage here coming on the end, Bronson. Bronson snapped his head. He's not sure what that means. But, I've been thinking of a hunting story or something. All right, so anyway, a little shout out to Triple S Polaris, 435-865-0100. Super good people. I've been cranking on the Razor. You know, it's one of those things. I do a little bit of social media, but I don't want to show too much about where we're at and what we're doing.

But having said that, we've got that Razor cranking. They make awesome products, And they kind of specialize in the aftermarket side of things, making it exactly what we need in the field. So, anyway, Colton Francis, we appreciate you, appreciate your company. Triple S, Polaris, Cedar City, Utah, they'll deliver anywhere, literally anywhere, 435-865-0100. I had something else written down that you threw out. It's one of those things that's kind of one of the funniest or best or whatever things I heard all week. You asked, and you said, let's ask it on a podcast. No, I didn't. Yeah, you did. You're going to remember. You wondered, we're talking about stags. We're talking about stags. Goat, stag, sheep. No, but you said, I wonder if anybody's ever started and shot a stag antelope, remember? Yeah.

And what it looks like. And we'll throw it out there. If you got a picture, email that to us, too. Anybody killed a stag antelope? I have not. I couldn't say I've ever seen one. If I did, I didn't know it. Send us a photo. It would be interesting. We know what deer and elk look like when they're that way. We want to know what an antelope does. Does it happen? Jump and crawl under fences all the time. Stuff's gonna happen. Guaranteed, you're gonna snag your boys on something. Somebody, some critter, somewhere in the antelope world has snagged their boys on something. But, remember, evolutionarily, aren't they like, they're not related like anything else on the earth. It seems like the North American antelope. So, maybe they, maybe they're bulletproof. No, no. I don't know. Hey, name the last weird, weird thing you've seen on an antelope. I'm not talking breaking a horn,

Horned bees, basins, growing weird. I heard there was a lot in Wyoming that are freaking dead. Well, that's the HD. That's not stag related. Sensitive. All right. Anyway. All right. One thing I was wondering, so for the bonus footage. I was just wondering, I'd love to put Clint, I'd love to put Clint on the spot. He's so opinionated. I just want to ask him what he thinks about the point systems for a minute. What do you think? Should we see if he'll answer a phone call? No. Or were you thinking about a particular hunting story? No, I'm not. One of the antelope stories? I've told all three. Alright, well, sometimes we ought to have all three on one podcast so people don't have to sift through the last 250 podcasts. Antelope, Adam's Antelope Hunting Experiences. Antelope, Adam's Antelope Hunting Adventures. We can even make another A so it'd be triple A. Four minutes and 30 second podcast.

All right, let's just ask Clint what he's... I don't know. Worst and best, maybe, instead of all. Or let's... his opinion. Hello. Hey, what are you doing? No, just... formulating hunting plans. No! Good timing. All right. We got you on the Epic Outdoors podcast, boss. Oh, no! Hey, we'll make it quick. We know you're trying to make money and provide for 14 women and children. And the heat's on, and so ACs are starting to get cranked, right? Yeah, people get angry when they get hot. We've been talking about angry world right now. And you're probably at a cool 68, formulating hunting plans. Well, yeah, it was nice and cool. I thought people can always put on more blankets, but they just can't take off more clothes. And so, they can't get angry. What plans are you, first off, since you're talking about, what plans are you formulating?

What are you looking at? Oh, my cousin with his tag, I'm just trying to see if I'm gonna be able to help him on his hunt. Oh, all right. Okay. All right, is it a good cousin or maybe not so good cousin? Oh, it's a good cousin. I mean, I want to help him. I want, this isn't a, you know, I want to go hunting. You're an active, willing participant. Yes, this is not a, I'm not there as obligated. Don't go into the head. Yeah. You don't owe him from there. Okay. Okay. All right. Well, Clint, today's subject was point systems, and positives and negatives throughout all the western states. And if you were king, what would you change? Just wondering your opinion, maybe general or however you want to go with it, of point systems in general. Do you like them, don't like them, and... And which ones do you like more and less?

Because a guy like you, you're very thoughtful, deliberate, and you analyze everything. The cost-benefit ratio, you know, all of them. And if there's a loophole, you've screwed a state or two. So...

Okay, well... Here we go. For starters, there's a whole lot of hate going on right now out there. Oh, yeah. That's why we... Hey, just to let you know, the flavor of the show, just to let you know, we talked about They named it the glass half full show. So, when we started talking about a state, the first thing we said had to be positive. That was our own rule. We'd like to hear something positive out of you. All right. I like point systems. I don't like a 100% preference point system like Colorado. There are some benefits to that. It's because predictability. I like the predictability point in that. But there's just so many people that want to hunt and so limited of a resource. I'm not sure if you're a fan of the U.S. out there right now, people are going to become more and more disgruntled with those systems in the future. I'll give up.

I like Utah. Utah, half is random, half go to points. I like that. You still have a chance. And that's kind of where I land. Idaho, all random. New Mexico, all random. I feel like those two states don't show me any love. I never can seem to get... But I also am putting in for the better units, so the more long shot type odds. How do you feel about the guide draw in New Mexico? Do you like it? No, I don't like it. I'm a do-it-yourselfer. I don't like it. And that's me, but at the same time, I don't want to be a hater. Yeah, we've had a lot of this. There's lots of hate going on right now. And what I don't like is a lot of people want to, If you start a system, I think you should try and maintain the system as close as you can, so that when people are invested in it, you don't jerk the rug out from underneath them years down the road. Amen.

Like, if you...luckily, I had drawn my...I cashed out on my moose points in Wyoming a few years ago. And you drew again. I drew again at random this year. Do you feel good about that? Is that fair? I almost feel guilty, to tell you the truth. My brother has like, you know, I don't know, he's in the point group that's drawn, maybe it's 21, 22 points, and he hasn't drawn in five years. He's been in the point group that's drawn. And I just picked up a random tag. Yeah, and he's got his work put out. But it's the last year for that. They're going to change to the 90-10, and those random tags are going to disappear. And those people that are in the 20s that have been waiting for sheep and moose tags that think that they're going to get a chance down the road because they're getting points.

And, you know, it's 75 bucks, 100 bucks a point. 150. 150 now. Yeah. Right. It keeps going up. Yeah, all that. And then they want to change the allocation. So, even less go to you, I kind of feel like you're being kind of dirty to them. Do you feel like the states appreciate non-residents? I have, I have, don't feel like any state out there at all appreciates non-residents whatsoever. I think that what, despite the 65 day, almost 80% of some of these states budgets coming from non-residents. Right. I think that we fund a lot of stuff. And for a long time, I think like Colorado and Wyoming, and some of the residents would want more tax, and they'd want to say, well, are you willing to pay more for the tax? The non-residents are really footing a large portion of our hunting budget. And a lot of the residents have finally said,

oh, we don't care anymore, we're willing to pay more, but they still don't want to raise the resident tax fees proportionately like they probably should. And then they say, well, we had a good year, and so we're flush with money, We won't do it for now. Yeah, let's just hold it on residence this year because our budget's good. I don't know. Right on. Right on. Any other thoughts in regards to the points? Points, I don't look at points guaranteeing you a tag. It's not money in your bank, and all of a sudden the bank burned down and they say we can't pay your money back. Yeah, you have to. I like it. It improves your odds. But, to be honest, some states I'm kind of, if I was starting fresh, there are certain states that I don't know if you're going to get your bang for your buck in the point system anymore.

I think of one of those instances in my life right now. My max points for moose in Montana. Okay, yeah. I have max sheep, goat, and moose in Montana. You have all three? Yeah, I got all three max. I have max sheep. And I drew my goat, so I'm glad I'm done. I've killed a goat and killed a moose. I'm happy. It's static. Done. I accept that. You know, I may never get to hunt those hunts, and that's fine. Well, it's a little bit different for the first sheep and goat type things. But deer, elk, and antelope, and we talked about states like Oregon for deer, elk, and antelope for heaven's sates and how stingy they are. I dropped Oregon like $15. When they raised the permit or the hunting license fee, doubled it or more. They raised the fee, and I was, I mean, I still got points there, because I don't think you lose your points.

Maybe I'll go try to get a whitetail hunt there someday or something. Blacktail or hybrid tail. I mean, I talked to them and told them they were at the expo one day, and I talked to them. I'm sure they listened. They listened. They listened to me, but it didn't make a difference. No. He pretended to care for a minute. Oh, geez. Like, Nevada, Nevada just has so few non-resident tags. I kind of like their point system, but it's, your chances still are... They gotta help our drawing odds. Give two choices instead of five. Do something. Get rid of the five choices for non-resident tags. Yeah, the five choices is kind of what's killing it. I mean, I hate to say that, because I take advantage of that as much like you. We all do, and the residents do too. That's why they won't touch it. They like it, but man, they would even help the residents if they changed that.

Yeah. All right, guy. What else? That's my, that's my two bits. That's your rant? You don't have any hate? You're just having... I've been trying not to... Well, it seems like there's a lot of hate toward guides out there right now, and outfitters in Utah, and some of it might be well-deserved. I don't, I'm not gonna be the judge on that, but there seems to be a lot of hate to non-residents everywhere out there. There's hate for landowners. I mean, there's hate for, if you had a lifetime license in Utah, there's, you know, hate for that too right now. Drought. I think drought and the lack of trophies, quantity, quality. If people have tags and they're seeing deer, they don't complain. And the fishing game's awesome. Two to three years ago, that was the case in Utah, Clint. Two to three, not decades ago.

It's amazing the difference a few years will make. Like 2019, when it was an unbelievable year, like this state is on the verge of the glory days are now. And other states too. Yeah. And now it's like, you know, lynch them all. I'm angry. Yeah. I want a 200 incher. I'm hangry and angry both. Yeah, I'm hungry. Well, I've seen Colorado. There's gonna be stuff coming down in Colorado. Oh, yeah. And non-residents are gonna get the short end stick. And I don't know if it's short. We've been getting a pretty good chunk. I'm not gonna lie there. We know. We have been, and I'm not pretending there. It's, but it's, but it's just what we're also talking about is, yeah, you couple that with the, with, with, we've been getting a very healthy chunk of deer and elk tags, and now you're gonna cut that, and there's a 100% preference draw. Your point creep thing just got magnified. It's done. Horrible.

So, there's got to be something else change if you're going to cut those in half. You've got to have 50-50 split. Something's going to have to happen. You know what I like about Clint? He's living the American dream. It's a weekday in the middle of the day, and he's working on hunting plans. I like that. I was in between jobs and had to stop in here. They've overlapped. Don't give me a... My high school history teacher used to tell me the American dream was to have a chicken in every pot and two cars in every garage. How are you doing? Clint's got that. Clint's got way more than two cars. He's got work vans. He's got more than one chicken in the pot. Oh, 100%. He's got turkeys in the pot. Yeah, I'm surrounded by turkeys. They call me on the phone and put me on podcasts. Well, thanks.

So, one more thing. Here's a future podcast that you, with all this current, when the dust finally settles with non-resident allocations, You guys need to get serious and if you're going to move to a state for hunting reasons, what's going to be the best state to move to? Oh, yeah. And you can only answer that based on today's rules and plans and management strategy. It's a hard thing. But, Bronson, we know a guy that's kind of roaming. We know a guy that's in Arizona right now, and he's going to keep on roaming. Not that he's willing to stay there for five years if he needs to. You're a little retirement agent if you just live where you live and big old motorhome. I think Wyoming residents got it pretty good right now. Oh yeah. And it's hard to be. With the next little shift, I think Colorado residents are going to have it pretty good too.

Yep, I agree. With the next little shift. I like Idaho. Fishing's amazing. Upland game. You know, ducks, geese. I mean, geez. On top of big game, still has over-the-counter tags. Sheep odds are amazing. You know, I think Idaho, Wyoming. Idaho and Wyoming and Colorado are kind of my favorites. Those are the three. But I mean, I like Arizona too. Even in Utah, like just we've done talked about it, Clint, I've drawn like three limit entry tags, not counting my sheep, but I've got one antelope, one elk, and one deer in my life. It's not the place to retire for hunting in Utah to draw tags. No, it's not. I've drawn one elk tag. Arizona's not either. You know, Nevada is not really either. You're in the 90% pull everywhere, but there's still tough tags to draw. So, anyway. All right, guy. We're gonna let you get back to making some money.

Yeah, get the AC flowing, get the hangriness out of people. I'm about spreading love, not hate. Hey, I like it. Chris, put that on Instagram and let's get posted. We've got an inaugural podcast on something positive. All right, guy. Okay, sounds good. Okay, man. All right, yeah, bye. Hey, all right, so on to the positive here in about a day and a half, which is probably about the time this podcast will come out. Nevada's going to be out. How about that? And even Idaho Sheep, that's going to be coming out, huh? Any day. Yeah, good luck in Nevada. Let's try to shoot, Chris. We'll get this out about 5 o'clock on Friday. Friday. It's 5 o'clock somewhere. All right, everybody. Appreciate it. Good luck. Let us know if you draw. Call if you want a Bronson bundle. Thank you. Reach your hunting dreams, whether it's helping you to develop a long-term application strategy or finding the perfect outfitter for your next hunt. As a member of Epic Outdoors, you'll also receive the Epic Outdoors magazine and have access to the best hunting consultants in the industry, online tools, and more. To join Epic Outdoors, visit epicoutdoors.com or call 435-263-0777.