EP 273: State of the Mule Deer Address, Talkin' Utah, Colorado and Wyoming Muleys with Zach Key

Anything to do with Western Big Game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, and Logan, just us three, coming at you from southern Utah with about freaking eight inches of snow in the parking lot. It's April 4th, everybody. Just won't stop. It keeps coming. I think we're going to try to fill Lake Powell in one year. Hey, I'm all about it. That's the world's greatest lake. It is. Ever. It's amazing. And it's going to be nice to have it more than a puddle. Yeah. You know, I don't know how, it's going to come up a lot. One year, no, I'm joking, but like good grief. We spread this out over the last five years. Where's it been? Where's it been? And with our luck, Pete, they're going to probably let more water out and still keep it low. You know what I mean? Just, I don't know. Kind of, I guess that whole, I don't really want to dive into Utah yet, but it feels like

that, you know, get a little bit of something and then they want to crush it again. And that's what it feels like water and Lake Powell. How do I, how do I bring up water and Lake Powell and deer tags in Utah? But anyway, hey, whatever. Maybe I'll let you run with that one for a minute. Maybe a mule deer can swim. I don't know where he's going with that. But you get a little bright hope out here in Southern Utah with what? We have abnormal fawn. I don't know. I want to call it retention, but there's a lot of fawns living. Yeah. They had a big fawn year, you know, where they fawn June, July, June. Yeah. Monsoon was incredible. Have a great survival going into the winter. Healthy fatties. Yes. And anticipating a bunch of fawns. And so I guess we're going to increase tags just for two points. I know. It's so hard.

But, and what it is, so, so everybody, we've had some, Utah just came out with their permit recommendations for all species. And so we're just, we just looked at them for a brief second before jumping into the podcast room. We'll give us a day or two and we'll probably do some more. Yeah. But anyway, I guess it's just on the brain and you have one little glimmer of hope and Northern Utah, there is no hope. We totally understand that. Yeah. And just this storm that just came through and dumped two, three, four feet up there. And another 18 inches and two feet across the ground. Just to cover the dead bodies. What did you? Just to cover the dead bodies. Well, you got 18 to 24 in Evanston. And then Casper, we saw. Casper was 27 inches. In one day. All the night, right? It broke the single day record. Well, since 1937. It's the most snowing one.

That's what Cowboy Gazette said or whatever it is up there. 27 inches at the end of winter is not a good end to the winter. It's supposed to be. It means it's not an end. My trees were budding out. What does this mean? Does snow like insulate them so it doesn't freeze them? You're fine. You think? Yeah. Little buds. Little tiny buds. Yeah, they're not. But if it freezes after this weekend. They got to be blossomed. They got to be opened. So Bronson, I want you to open up your weather app. I want you to open up the weather app and read the temperatures and weather report for the next 10 days here in southern Utah. Roughly. You were showing it to me earlier today. And it's kind of crazy. Yeah. It is going to be tonight. They're not butted out. So I'm not. Mine was just starting. I'll just. Okay. Well, the next three days are 16, 15, and 18 at night. So they're torched.

If they really came out, they're done. Well, they didn't come out, come out. Okay. You could just see it. Okay. Yes. Then starting Friday on, we are warming for a week. We're kicking it up to 67. 60s to upper 60s for the next six days. I remember a few days ago we looked at it. It was like 73 is a high. They've scaled it back a little bit. But there's warm around the horizon, and I think that's probably in a lot of different places. But anyway. May have some flooding here in our hometown. Who knows? There's a lot of water to come off that mountain. All over Colorado, northern Utah. I mean, we've kept pushing winter later, later, later, later, and then it's got to come off some point. So it's going to be interesting. I don't know. I'm staying on high ground. I know that. So there's a lot going on in the back of our mind here. A, we just talked about Wyoming. We're worried.

They were talking about the report of 150 antelope in the town of Evanston. Dying against some. Died. Fence. Just trying to huddle out of the wind. Walmart parking lot or something. I don't know exactly. I hate to quote it all because I don't know. Around one of those illegal firework stands. Wyatt never misses a thing. And he's the one that told us about it. So if he said it, it's true. And we invited him in here today. So we can crush him. And he declined because it is Colorado deadline day. Tease him a little. We said, you know what happens if you decline and say you need to take care of some projects. You're not there to defend yourself. But we've had an awesome nickname for Wyatt in the past. But he hates it. But it's true. It is true. And I think it's accurate. And I think it's endearing. Yeah. So go ahead. Well, we called him Starbucks. But he doesn't like that.

And that's just kind of a 21st century version of the coffee shop talk, right? Starbucks. He's, it's honestly, it's a. He doesn't like it. No, but I think it's, I think it speaks volumes to. He's got a pulse. He has a pulse on everything. And we think we know something. We don't know anything. He's got pipelines where I don't know pipelines exist. He can find out. He's got an amazing, honestly, to speak to his credit, he has an amazing mind and memory. I mean, I'll watch his face. And he doesn't know him. Like, I'm watching his face because my office stares into his office and your office and vice versa. And when he, when you tell him something that he doesn't, didn't know, you can see the gears turning. Like, they're just, he's, and he's processing the entirety of what you're telling him. And, and putting it in places in his mind and how that affects 14 other variables.

Another way of saying that is nothing goes in one ear and out the other with wine. No, it all goes in one ear and stays. So I don't know what he's captured inside the head, but a lot. So anyway, it's, hey, and it's. But he'll throw something out there that gets us all going on something every once in a while because it's a different angle. He's good at what he does. He, his processing information. He's good at what he does. And we're lucky to have him as part of our team. So, all right, Bronson, let's talk about a couple little things. Yeah. You know, how about this? I've been banging away with the new Fierce Rifle. Yeah. 7mm PRC. Yeah. Finally got ammo. We, we bought ammo all over the nation. Pretty much. It feels like we had to. And then when we found large amounts, copious quantities, we grabbed, what'd you grab? You did it. Well, you did. We did. We all collectively, we got.

A piece or something. Yeah. We got 12, 13 a piece. I don't know. Yeah. Cases. Same lots. Anyway, but I didn't tell you this, but I did throw some rounds out there at 1,000. Good. Kind of fun. Yeah. It's crazy. So, anyway. We did some ballistics, ran some numbers, and it's unbelievable. It's a fun cartridge, really. Well, the energy retention is stupid. The ballistic coefficient on an ELDX, a 175er is like .689 or whatever. Crazy. It flies. It maintains that path and energy. It doesn't slow down. It flies, and it doesn't really slow down, and it keeps that energy. So, pretty impressive. Fun to shoot. You know, slapped a Suaro scope on mine. You're going to slap what is ice on yours. Yeah. Just go with what I like. Yeah. It's awesome. What you know on other guns and stuff. Well, and it's what we sell here at Epic, and, man, they're incredible optics. So, anyway, pretty awesome.

A little shout-out to them. We sell those. Of course, if anybody wants one, we can get a better deal than anybody, pretty much. Also, Triple S Polaris. Appreciate them and their support here at Epic Outdoors. Super good people. If you're looking for a side-by-side, four-wheeler, I don't know. Geez, Bronson, do I dare say a sled or something like that? I don't know. They even do electric bikes down there. How about that? Generators. Stop talking. No more sled talk. Let's break this cycle. I want to throw some tracks on it. I'm thinking about, for summertime scouting, throwing tracks on my bike. For the sand. It's very winter. For the sand. No. No. No. For the snow. The snow yesterday. You said summer. Yeah. We're not going to be out of snow. Oh. On the mountain? Yes. There's going to be absolutely good drifts up on these 10,000 to 12,000 foot sun ranges that never leave. 100% never leave.

You're going to have nice camps up there and have snowball fights this July. I just want to talk theory. Do you dare talk theory as an ex-biologist in your previous life? Yeah. Theory. Not proven theory necessarily. Just theory. Oh, are you talking about? Oh, yeah. And antler growth. Four bulls in wet conditions or winter-like conditions. Extended winter. Yeah. Wet conditions are one thing. Extended winter. But this has gone on. This is crazy. This lack of spring and this continuance of winter that we're having. I honestly think that there's a better chance than not that the collective number of bulls in Utah are not going to be as off the charts as we think they're going to be antler-wise this year. That's my gut feeling. I think they are. It's going too long. And it's not just about they're worn down.

I'm not talking about northern Utah like when they have nothing to eat and they're starving and they survive and then they can only grow average alters. I'm talking about southern Utah. There's no green anywhere. Now it might come this week, but what is it? It's already the fourth. If it starts showing up the 5th, 10th, or 15th of April, okay, that's good for some bulls, but other bulls have been shed for a month. I know. And so I just think you're eating mahogany, you're eating whatever for too long. Trees. And it's not going to green up. We watch them eat trees. They do. They do. I just personally think those moderate winters, but good wet springs, elk seem to do incredible. There's going to be some drifty areas with still snow when they finish. That's my contention. Some bulls will finish July 1-ish. Yeah. Especially these desert bulls. But anyway.

But I just think maybe it's, yeah, elk, if you have three to four inches of standing green when they're shedding, watch out. There's not even that a month after they're shed this year. And then there's a lot of guys that say dry years are best elk years. You know, I don't know that we can, I don't know that we've truly quantified that comparative to wet years for deer. Deer, we know. Well, they shed earlier, but they don't grow immediately. Deer just don't. Elk shed and then two to three weeks, sometimes they got fronts and thirds going on. I mean, it's, you blink. Yeah. And deer don't grow that fast. They don't grow as fast as elk. And like you said, elk are done, big elk are done in July. Deer are sometimes growing through the end of August. Oh, yeah. End of August. Remember Bruce? He was still soft at the top. End of August. Yeah. So deer get really cranking in May, June, July, August.

You know, elk by May, by the time you're end of May hunting spring bears, they're two thirds done. Yeah. You know, by then deer just got an eye guard and a shank. You know what I mean? In the end of May, a lot of times. Kind of crazy. I think it's just different. My gut feeling is I think there's going to be too much snow to be absolutely optimal forage for growing giant bulls everywhere. There's going to be some. We're going to kill some big bulls. But collectively, I don't think it's going to be. Might be a slightly off year, potentially. I wouldn't be surprised. For Utah, not Arizona. No. We're not talking about Arizona. I'm only talking about areas where snow-capped mountains. You've got 10 to 15 feet of snow up here on these mountains. Oh, it's tough. I mean, they're not even going to walk to a summer range until, you know. Ever. You know. June. In the May, I would say. Well, no way.

No. You don't think? Heck no. How about turkeys? Are they alive? Okay. The turkey season, I think, starts this weekend. Maybe it's, isn't it this weekend? It's this weekend. It was always fun to be like the first guy because, you know, they're virgin birds. Well, yeah. They're unbothered. And that's, in Utah, we went, since we, you know, you want birds that haven't heard. Or you go on the very end. Yeah. When they're clean up. Yeah. And nobody else is out. Hens are sitting. Yeah. And toms are roaming and still wanting to have a girlfriend and lonely. Is it this weekend? Yeah, it's this weekend on the 8th. Okay. Bear season, I believe, opened last weekend in spring season. Okay? Yeah. Where would you hunt a bear right now? I don't know. Maybe polar bear. Polar bear. Find somebody with a radio collar and a tail. I don't know. Just interesting. We've been talking about it.

There's like, I don't know if there's a turkey alive where I hunt turkeys. I don't know how there could be one alive in the mountain. Bear ends. Weather is weird. Hey, let's throw out the little bear scenario you guys had. You guys, we were talking about earlier today. Which one? Well, the dry 2018. That happened, I think it was 2018-19, I think is the year it was. It was a year of real dry, dry year. Poor acorn crop, all that. And the bears went in. Bad shape. And then you had a crushing winter, and they had lost a lot of bears in the den. Radio collared bears. Because they couldn't come out and eat like they did. Yeah. Or they just, I don't know if they malnourished when they died, but they died in the den. Right. I'm not saying that's happened this year, but it just feels like. But it's just interesting how weather affects all things. All life. All life. All creatures, great and small.

Yeah. And if that lake rises, if Lake Powell rises, my life is amazing. Huh? Yeah. Logan? Yes. I'm going to be using far more vacation time than I do. Yes. Jeez. I'm planning trips. Multiple this year. I have to run that through management. Yeah. All right. Well, pretty fun stuff. I don't know. All that came from Triple S. Anyway, we appreciate them and their support. Hoyt, we appreciate their support as well. Stealth Cam Bronson. I'm getting a new bow set up right now. How about it? How about it? The new VTM 34. It's going to be awesome. Yeah. I'm getting ready. I just need some tags to go. Bobby. Bobby Fromm down there. California. He's setting it up. Going to kill it. Huh? Yeah. Go ahead and list off your archery tags. Go ahead and list off your archery tags. I don't have any yet. That's a lie. You got plans. I got maybe Colorado archery out. Maybe. That's the first one.

Other than that, I haven't decided my Utah general. There's a lot up in the air, I know. Nevada deer, I'm going all in on archery. Done. I want to be first. If you're not first, you're last. Right? I want to be there first. Tell me the last time you've been excited to be in Nevada August 10th. Tell me. It's been a while. I had a muzzleloader tag in 2019. Smashed a big deer. Yeah. And that was the last great year. Collectively great year. Great year. We've had a couple bucks here and there. But collectively, it's been off. Yeah. That was a 220 year down in the middle of nowhere. And it feels like that's going to happen again. And this is the year you take chances and you just grab a tag somewhere. You know what I mean? Yep. That's right. Feels like it. Pretty awesome. Bronson, we're stocked up on Stealth Cam. Anybody that needs one, give us a holler.

Actually, there's a lot of these, let's call them seasons, Trail Cam seasons. People like to say banned because it's such a bad word. But they're not banned. They are in Arizona. But seasons here in Nevada, Utah. I don't know. Some kind of coming out. Hummingbird watching? What could you use them for in Arizona? Bees? I don't know. A lot of bees. Time lapse on green up? I don't know. But anyway, I'm just saying that you're going to have to run double. You're going to need, I mean, we're going to cover some country. We've seen that ourselves. We live here near the Nevada line. We run cameras in Nevada, whether it be for sheep, scouting for hunters, or whether it be for deer. And in Utah. And we have to now pull them down at the same time before August 1st. And you can't afford to have a camera get spun by a cow or something like that.

Leave it for two, three weeks and come back and realize for the last two weeks you had nothing. You can't afford it. You've got to have different directions on certain cameras. When you know you have a water that's, this is key. Well, and if they're really key, you run one on video mode and one on still mode. And maybe a couple others for backup. It just feels like it when you get a special little spot because you can't afford it. You come back July 29th because you can't pull them all down in one day a lot of times in two states. You can't. So you end up from the 27th to the 31st running, you know. It's now a, in fact, I need to put my requested time leave here. That's what I was thinking. That leave. July 27th to 31st. I want to take some vacation. I want to be out. I need to be out. Me, man. But anyway, to your point. I'm going to submit that to John. See what he says. All right.

Well, yeah. To your point, though, we've had a big delivery already. We get them early. We're ready. We've got a bunch. We've got boxes. We've got cameras. Whether it be cellular. Whether it be, you know, regular SD card cameras. Whatever. You know. And the best pricing. And boxes. Some bare boxes. So anyway, keep it in mind. Bare boxes to keep people out. All right. But anyway, we want to also appreciate Under Armour, their support of us here at Epic Outdoors. UAHunt.com. We've got some discount codes. They're on our website. Those are limited in quantity. Up to $2,000. You know, you can purchase up to $2,000 worth of gear and get a significant discount. 40% off. It's unbelievable. So anything on their website. Anything. UAHunt.com. Also, EpicOutdoors.com to grab your discount code. Grab one. And I don't know. We'll be coming out with some new items here this summer.

Generally June and July. And if you want optics with the trail cameras you just mentioned, just give us a call. 435-263-0777. We usually say that at the end. But we're not ending the podcast yet. That's right. We actually got a special guest, Bronson. Do we? Yeah. We do. Who? Well, there's a resident up there in Wyoming. Oh, yes. That knows his stuff. Zach Keys. We dealt with him for a long time. How many years have we known him? A long time. Just, I don't know, 10 plus, probably. 10 years. Killed some giant animals. Giant deer one year up there that was just the biggest deer like in the state. It makes you salivate just as such a giant. Been there his whole life, I believe. Lifelong resident. It would be nice to maybe get a perspective. I know you talked to somebody today. It doesn't matter who. But I think they were from Big Piney.

Whether it be in their lifetime or for the last, let's say, 30, 40 years. Let me just, I can read it. I don't need to say who it was. Yeah. Super good friend of mine. I just want to know how long they've lived there. Lifetime? It comes from David Long. He's just, he's a good dude. And he's like, you know, my relative has lived near Big Piney since 1978. And he said, this is the worst winter he has seen. I mean, that's saying a lot. You know what I mean? For the icebox of western Wyoming. That's what that is. Yeah. They see a lot of tough, cold, winter temperatures. Crazy. Yeah. And they know, I mean, anybody that knows David, I mean, he's a deer junkie. He's killed some absolute giants. Earned them. Worked hard. Is he still going to hunt Wyoming this year? Because he's not a resident anymore. I mean, I could answer that, but I don't want to. I don't know. But yeah.

Well, I want to know what I should do, Jason. I think you should always go. Never. Hey, nothing is certain in life. I know. Let's make some memories.

Spending other guy's points right there. Are you spending your points? No. Because you are. And I'm supporting you. You want me? I'm going to watch the guinea pig go, and I will get an update daily from you. I think there's, Bronson, we've talked about this. We've talked about it. The young die and the old, old die. Yeah. The perfect age deer are healthy and strong. They're the strongest to survive. Three to, we'll call them three to five-year-old bucks, roughly. Yeah. Plus or minus. Maybe you can enter a two-year-old in there, but say three to five. There is truth to that. And then the only other thing that we get thinking about is, all right, if that's your window and they all, those that survive, there's going to be far fewer bucks, no question. But that gap that can maybe show up and be some four or five or maybe four to six-year-olds. Right. That's hopefully what you're looking for.

You want a six to nine, of course, but that's, there's very few of those even in non. They get pretty gnarly at the base, about eight. Yeah. You can't grip them tight. I love that. I love that. But the prognosis for the next two to three years, or four, is more bleak. So if it's not now, when are you going to go? And with them just giving residents over-the-counter tags at will, anybody that wants one gets one. You're entitled to one if you're a resident. And, you know, and then they want to take maybe 100 tags off of age, but for you and I and other people. So, I don't know, it just doesn't, I guess it's hard to roll with that and to manage and to help with winter die, winter kill. When you're just going ahead and continuing to let everything. This is a bottleneck. Who knows? Who knows? Maybe this is the start of the end of that process there. Maybe. Maybe. This type of winter.

It should be. Very well. It should be. If you want to recover it sooner, it should be. Yeah. If you want to recover it. Don't cut a hundred non-resident tags off of H and think, we're saving the world. It's the 21st century. I just think it's, unfortunately, long gone are the days of just giving tags over the counter. To everybody that wants one. For mealies. Mealies are sensitive. Oh, let's call Zach. Let's just see what he has to say. I actually have no idea what he's gonna say. He may not even answer. Well, I hope he answers. Let's just see what he says. I don't know.

This is Zach. Zach, it's Jason Carter, Adam Bronson on the Epic Outdoors podcast. How are ya? Doing good, man. Doing good, guys. How are you guys? You pushing snow this morning? What are you doing? We absolutely are. I'm in LaBarge here, and we probably got about, oh, five or six inches yesterday, and about the same today. Jeez, that's about like us. That's about like us in Cedar City. But we know in other places up there, we heard Casper got like 27 last night, and, you know, Evanston 18 or something, 20. But, I don't know, we're just, you're on our minds. Well, Wyoming deer and antelope are kind of on our minds, and so we've been, maybe thought we'd give you a call and get a, I don't know, status report. A trophy hunter's perspective.

Is there any shred of hope, Zach? That's what we're hoping for, to hear from you. But, be honest. Be honest with your perspective, being a lifelong, I think a lifelong resident right there. Yeah, definitely a lifelong resident. Man, I've got a lot of mixed feelings right now. I mean, they just had a governor's meeting last week. Governor flew in, Monteith, Brian Nesbick, and everything else. And with that meeting, I guess some data points for everybody is Kevin Monteith is claiming that the deer went into this winter with about 12% body fat The hunt was a lot of body fat versus the 2016-2017 hard winter, where they went into that winter with 8%. So, according to Monteith studies out of the University of Wyoming, they actually went into the winter with a lot more body fat than normal, because a percent of body fat is a big deal.

But, I'm telling you, I live just outside of LaBarge, and I've picked up a lot of dead deer and stuff out of my yard individually. I know for a fact this is the most deer and antelope I've ever pulled out of fences along the highway in my life. I mean, you're on a regular basis trying to get those guys out of the fences and stuff, and I mean, I don't even know if they'll make it or not, but you at least attempt to help them. But it's, you know, driving around the oil fields, I work in oil and gas, and driving around the oil fields on a regular basis, it's scary. I mean, a lot of deer just, you know, lay there and don't wake up. So, it's going to be unique. You know, there for a minute, I just kind of recommended to some of the non-residents to still put in, because, you know, your deer that survive, the amount of forage and, you know, the stopover areas

and everything else are going to be phenomenal this year with new growth and stuff like that. And I still think that's the case, but that was my perspective a couple months ago. But now, yeah, now it's changing. Well, I was telling Adam, we talk about this pretty regular, and Adam's like, should I burn my points? This was like, it feels like two days ago or whatever. And then this storm hit, you know, this last storm, and it just feels like, man, they need a break. They've been needing a break, and we get another dump, you know. And so, I don't know. Has your perspective, like you're saying, that was your perspective a while ago. Is your perspective gradually changing, or do you still have hope for big deer?

You know, man, it's just such a, I'm so on the fence with it. But I still think that if a non-resident, you know, I mean, he's going to be taking a little bit of a chance. I mean, if he puts in the time and effort and everything, you know, and is selective, you know, I think there's going to be some, you know, some opportunity there with some major antler growth and stuff, especially if we have a, you know, a warm summer with a lot of growth. But at the same time, I mean, if I had to have, you know, 12 and 14 points and stuff, you know, eight points, whatever it is in each unit, I'd be having a severe

I mean, I went up to one of my oil field sites the other day, and there was some old bruiser bucks. They were laying there. I mean, they were big enough where they had, you know, five, six-inch pedicle spaces on their head. And, I mean, all of them were just laying there with their head in the snow. I mean, they're just, you know, hips and ribs and bones. I mean, you just, your heart aches for them. You know, it's just like you don't, you know, you're just, we can't do anything for them. And it's just, it's a little scary this year. Just my opinion, so. Well, and I guess just to look on the bright side, we've got to spin it. I mean, I was looking at, I've been watching your weather. I keep LaBarge in my phone all year long, because it's kind of the, one of the, the heart of some of that region, G&H, winter country.

Just watch temperatures, and anybody that watches that knows that you guys are somewhat of an icebox of western Wyoming. You guys are known for that, but you guys had the snow and the crusty snow for a long, long time this year, and it was apparent. Anybody you talked to, you and other friends we have up there were saying that same, whether it be mid-January and then again at the Hunt Expo, oh, it's not good. We needed that two to three week period that got in the mid to upper 30s or 40s and just bared it off and then hit a reset button. We got sagebrush open again, and it just did, it just kept, we got the opposite. We got cold and more storms, and then this one felt like, alright, we're finally out of the woodwork. But then you get another couple series of storms in the last week, and it just feels like finishing off.

Luckily, it looks like, you know, you got a minus one forecasted Thursday morning up there, it looks like. And hopefully, that's the last negative we see until next fall. I mean, it is April. But geez, I mean, and then it does look like, you know, from Saturday on, You guys are gonna be in the mid to upper 40s and, you know, in the 20s at night, which, geez, that's balmy for your country. So, hopefully, just that, but what you're dealing with is a long winter, and like you said, these deer are spent, and it doesn't matter sometimes what the weather does, it can't come fast enough because they've deteriorated to such a point that, you know, it doesn't matter if you put good feed right in front of them right now, pellets or whatever, they just, they can't make that switch and just start So, what's going to happen is going to happen, and it's going to be a guinea pig year.

People want you to forecast, and so we're just, we're thinking that the perfect, that the healthy, that almost on the young side, I don't know, let's call it two and a half, three and a half years old to five and a half will make it, and those, there's going to still be some big deer taken. The oldest and obviously the youngest are going to have a hard time, but. What do you think? What do you think, Zach? And I guess, talk about it from this year versus, yeah, waiting two or three years, four years, probably not going to be a whole lot different because you're dealing with yearling and fawns that are not going to be recruited very high.

Yeah, yeah, and I agree with that 100%. And then they also, I noticed the game fish in this suggested season setting stuff is talking about three points or better, and all the units around here in G and H and everything, they're talking about three points and better. That's one thing that'll be unique. I agree 100% with, I really believe you can still harvest some really quality deer. One of the things I'm going to do when I go to the season setting meeting in Lander is I am going to request them to drop the youth doe tags. I know that some people are probably like, oh man, why is he saying that? But I've got a family, I've got kids, and I think there's a valuable lesson in the fact that they're taking it so hard this winter that it's okay to pause for a few years and not do any doe harvest and let these things have a chance to recuperate.

The antelope, I'll give you guys a perspective most probably don't have. We are out right now with, and I don't want to use any names, but an oil and gas provider right now teamed up with the Game of Fish, And SOS is actually out there picking up antelope carcasses as we speak. They figure that out there in the Green River Basin there, that there was probably about 1,200 antelope where we are at. And they assume we're going to pick up around 600 of them. And we've been picking up about 50 to 60 antelope carcasses a day, and we're removing them from the landscape. There's some risk, they believe, of all those dead antelope playing across the landscape and bringing in those blackbirds and those ravens and competing with the sage-grouse. Sage-grouse nesting and eggs and all that. Yep, yep. But I mean, we're doing 600 in the little spot we're at for one of the providers right now.

And I'm talking that's only like a 20th percent, you know, it's a 16th or 20th percent of it. I mean, we're not even touching anything yet. I mean, the antelope, if I was to recommend something, the antelope is where I would not burn any point. That is the scariest, because they are not as hardy to begin with. They're smaller body-sized, they're not as hardy to begin with, and they don't pack fat.

Antelope run too much. They burn off the fat. Truck chasers. You know, so, and you're talking about western Wyoming further, like you get downbound Rollins north and south and there to the Wyoming-Colorado line where it's even worse than where you're talking about in terms of snow depth. They say the Red Desert's rough. I mean, it's going to be bleak. I was telling Jason this morning with this last weeks of storms that have gone through, I wouldn't be surprised that if you see either altered permit number recommendations, So, we're going to have to go deeper than the cuts that we've already seen. Or they should. Or they should. Or they may. You may just... Don't you think that that's probably very likely in some of these units that they may have gone with these two or three weeks ago as permit cuts,

but after what's happened in the last two or three weeks and the prognosis, they're going to have to go deeper. One thing that's maybe a little concerning is at that meeting last week, Brian Neswick mentioned that he doesn't have, you know, the Game of Fish doesn't have any plans to do any additional major cuts at this point. And I just encourage people to be paying attention to that. I mean, I think, you know, you get more bees with honey than vinegar, so I wouldn't go and beat the Game of Fish's door down or be ignorant or anything like that. But I think, you know, for me, I don't think they should issue any Dauphin antelope tags this year. At all, anywhere. Yeah, and I think people should be focused on elk, if you want my opinion. The elk are also taking it hard this winter. I know a lot of the elk are boarding calves.

I've got a lot of rancher buddies here in the community, a lot of elk are boarding calves, and a lot of calves are dying. The elk are taking it hard, but I do know that they set up an emergency feed ground here up on Muddy Creek, which is not a normal situation either. They're feeding about 600 additional head elk, and I do know the game fish realized, holy cow, we've got way more elk than we thought. And so, if I could advise anything to people, they're going to have... The elk are going to have the same situation. They're going to have a lot of feed to eat this summer, and I would imagine it's going to produce a lot of elk. The elk, they're a lot more hardy. I think that's where I'd definitely focus some time. Wow. You mentioned the three-pointer better, but I'm sure you get frustrated with Game & Fish like we do.

Everybody's really passionate with their own state. We were talking before you got on about the Utah Division of Wildlife. We're actually, like you said, we're not truly argumentative with them, and we do sympathize with them at times, I've been trying to make everybody happy, and everybody's got an opinion. But I mean, do you feel like 3-pointer better is a band-aid to just giving over-the-counter tags to residents, just giving anybody that wants a tag a tag? You know what I mean? Is that just kind of a band-aid to try to prolong that change or that potential change down the road? Yeah, I agree. I mean, I've always kind of supported the three-pointer better or the four-pointer better. I've told the gaming fish in the past, I don't see an issue with it if it's a two- or three-year span, and then you drop it off immediately. But, you know, the thing I hate about it is...

What I worry about is just people shooting a fork and horn, hoping that it's a three-by-two or whatever, and then they ground-check them. You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. That's what I worry about on a three-point. Especially when deer numbers or buck numbers are going to be low anyway after a winter loss. It's going to be, there are not going to be as many bucks around. So, you're going to shoot and hope later. Yeah. Maybe. It happens. Like you said, if it's a short-term thing to save any two-point, any yearling bucks, any fawns that survive in our two-points this year, and it's for that purpose, okay. But if it sticks forever, it shows there's something else broken. You're not recruiting enough bucks into the population for whatever other reason, whether that be through winters or overharvest or whatever.

And it affects the rut and affects lots of other variables. But yeah, I know it's nice to, as a resident, Wyoming's one of the last great states. I mean, you guys got wildlife. Your desert's full of wildlife. It's just kind of crazy. It's awesome. But, it does feel like, at times, you know, it's hard to curtail these tag numbers when you don't have a way to do that, resident-wise. Yeah. Yeah, I know a lot of residents here are asking why they don't make residents' limited quota and everything, you know, go down that route. I know there's a lot of, you know, you talk to any gaming fish personnel, and I mean, they're a thousand percent against it. Yeah. So, I know those guys, they want them to consider it, but you can tell the game fish are not considering that. They want to keep a general tag for the residents. I don't know. I have mixed feelings both ways.

Yeah, you're a resident. It's understandable. You've hunted it a certain way your whole life. We've gone through that in Utah 20 years ago when we had to go draw. Tough change. Then we had to pick from a region, we had to pick to an individual unit, and it's hard. It is hard, and there's a lot of emotion. There's a lot of discussions, a lot of sides to that, but I guess... Then there's a lot of people that want to change, and then we come down to a general, what we call like a general area unit, and then people want to make that general into a Poncagon-type experience. I know. And so you'd end up going, keep going down these rabbit holes, and it's tough.

It'll be interesting, I guess, after this winter and the dust settles, although we might not have any dust all winter long up there, but to see what the real long-term effect, how much does it set things back, and can the status quo, if you want to call it that, keep going as a status quo, or does there have to be something new change? I think you've got a good perspective, Zach, on being able to maybe fight the battles that you can actually maybe make some headway. You're not going to make headway on the general status, but maybe it is the three or four point, or maybe it is the doe tags and things like that, or the youth tags, or whatever. So, yeah, work on the, well, or even like, were we talking about the youth doe tags? Yeah, youth doe and then doe fawn antelope this year.

They're like, yeah, they always knew him to cut, but it feels like just for the sake of erring on the side of caution, just eliminate it. And you can make that change. That change is one that would resonate with even the residents, wouldn't you think, Zach? I think so. I mean, everybody gets so, the gaming fishermen I talk to them about, you know, getting rid of those doe mule deer tags. I mean, they get so sensitive about public perception, what people are going to think, and you know, well, the youth are important, the youth are important.

Absolutely. I agree a thousand percent. But I also think there's a value, I think the youth get too much too fast anymore, and I think there's also value in, you know, for example, you know, if you, you know, say you're a little bit short on cash at the house and your kids want to do something one of the weekends, and, you know, hey kids, you know, we don't really have the money this paycheck, we'll wait till, you know, we'll wait till next paycheck and we'll go accomplish that. I mean, there's value in that kind of lesson to our youth as well, that, hey, when deer numbers are great, you know, yeah, maybe we have some youth. We all get to kill deer. When they're not, we need to help them. Yep, yep. You know? That totally makes sense. And one thing, too, I don't know if Utah does it, but it drives me nuts that Wyoming does it, but they always move the objective.

You know, our deer numbers have went from, you know, 80 to 60 to 40, and instead of getting more deer on the landscape, they just keep moving the objective. Well, we're still within 10% of the deer objective. Well, you're moving it. You're lowering the deer. You keep lowering the deer objective, you're saying? Yeah. Yeah, and it's crazy. Somebody actually at that meeting on Thursday challenged him on that. They said, why do you keep moving the deer objective down, down, down, instead of trying to get some more of the deer on the landscape? And at some point, the elderly hunters out there, the generation that remembers what it could be, and what it was, or maybe what it should be, you end up, we forget as a generation, the newer, younger generations don't realize what it once was, what it could be, what it should be, whatever. And so, when you've moved that objective, now we can say, well,

our objective's always been this. Well, yeah, but it wasn't in the 80s. You know what I I mean, but people forget as those generations come and go, that's forgotten, you know, to a degree. So, what, Zach, what do you, I mean, I don't know if we could dive into, you know, some of the different proposals out there for non-residents and 90-10 splits and things like that. I mean, do you have a perspective on some of those things? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely some deep conversation on that. I mean, I feel like the Wyoming task force, you know, and you guys are going to think I sound like a crazy right winger or something. When I originally saw that thing develop and come out, I had some big hopes for that. I thought it was going to be something really good for the state of Wyoming, for people to be able to get their voice out.

As I followed that and went to some of the meetings in Casper and everything else, I soon realized that there was a lot more political gain behind the scenes and stuff. I'm going to be honest with you, I stopped going to Casper. I stopped following a lot of the stuff because it was a lot of outfitter discussions and some different things. And, you know, I'm going to give you my short version. I feel like we're spending so much energy talking about 90-10 and 80-20 and all those things. That's what I told these guys, that we're not focusing on the real solution, which is putting more critters on the landscape. How do we get more bighorn sheep on the landscape, more moose on the landscape? I mean, they still kill cow-moose on a regular basis, and they move the cow-moose objective the same direction. They move the bighorn sheep objective the same way. They do it with all the objectives.

They just move it down, down, down, down. How do we get more of those critters on the landscape? Because all we're doing going 90-10 is we're divvying up the last critters we have. You know, it's like a last-ditch effort. It's confusing progress and activity in my opinion. It's like, let's figure out how to get more critters on the landscape to where we can keep, you know, bighorn sheep and all those things at 80-20. And I'm big on non-residents. I don't know how much you guys follow some of the stuff, but I'm a huge supporter of non-residents. If my kid moves away someday and ends up living somewhere else and wants to come back hunting with his dad, I would love for the chance for him to still be on an 80-20 split or something like this, still have the opportunity to hunt another great stake. I feel like it's just, you know, we're going down the wrong tunnel, going 90-10 and all that.

I mean, I'm not against it. You know, it's not a bad thing for us residents, But I just feel like it's a lot of work for nothing. Well, and it got muddied so much throughout that discussion process of, okay, we're gonna do this, and then of the 10%, we're gonna, you know, somebody to guarantee the outfitters. And that's honestly, hey, I'm a guide. I'm an outfitter. And I don't generally like that concept. I don't really believe that a business, a private business like that, should be subsidized over public wildlife. Some people might say, wait, wait, wait, we give landowner tags and outfitter tags. Well, there's a difference in some certain cases with legislation that earmarks private deeded ground processes for receiving landowner tags, whether they be non-transferable like Wyoming or transferable in Utah. Compensating landowners with the private sector.

That is different to me than just an outfitter. Like, I want to be an outfitter, but the state needs to give me tags so I can have a business. And I can sell them. I can sell those. And that, to me, and I know I might ruffle some favors on that, because there's other states that have that. But in general, that concept, I don't really like. I don't think a public resource should be used that way. And I know that there's maybe a few other instances throughout the West that gets muddied based on public permits through outfitter-allocated processes, whatever. But I just, in general, don't like. So, I was really in opposition to that, and I wrote that very strongly to Wyoming. I know a lot of people did because it goes back to what you were saying, Zach. The pie is shrunk so small, and then you're, let's say you got 10 pieces of the pie, you

know, a tenth for non-residents, 90% for residents, but the pie is so flipping small now, it doesn't matter about the 90% on a sheep or a moose unit that has five or four total tags. You know, you got nothing to eat. There's nothing left of, you know, you're looking at it in your head like, what's left? So, it frustrates the entire system. Yeah, exactly. So, over a split to an outfitter, so to speak. That's right. And did you guys pay attention to, so I don't know if you guys have noticed the most recent discussion, so that whole guaranteed tags to the outfitters, due to everybody writing in and everything, was actually shut down and squashed. Oh yeah, it was. Oh, it was. That didn't go anywhere, but then they increased non-resident tags by 200%. 200% on some of them, and did it the back way. The special price license. That was a quasi-outfitter pool, is what it was, because you're now...

That's what they did. You made the special prices so high. You know, Pat Crank wrote an article in the Cowboy State Daily about it, saying, Well, we couldn't get the outfitter only. We're going to raise these tags by 200% in order to, you know, still talking about that our state isn't in line with the other states and everything else, which I don't agree with. I feel like we are in line. And yeah, they come around the backside and did it anyway. And it bums me out, because I don't think people pay attention to that stuff as well as they should. I think we're a little sensitive too with the wilderness law and having to hire an outfitter as a non-resident to go into the wilderness if you're hunting, but we're fine to fish it. We can go into the wilderness and fish. We can go into the wilderness and camp.

So, it just feels like they have had a lot of cards, and hey, we have a lot of great friends that are outfitters there, but I mean, enough, enough, enough. Pretty soon the pie is so small now that I think you're honestly in Wyoming, if these things, and I've written commissioners, some of which, Zach, you know very well. You know, they've asked for my opinion at certain times, but I honestly think Wyoming is at a major crossroads right here in the next three to five years on losing a giant segment of non-resident buy-in forever. You know, with the permit increase fees and tag cuts and all that, like, alright. Current point system and the random tags versus preference tags. I mean, there's just a lot of variables. You push hard, far, hard, and I understand. Residents should have more say in their own wildlife. By far.

We argue that in Utah. We live here. But at some point, there may be a line that you cross, you're like, oh my gosh, from a budgetary standpoint now, we threw out the baby with the bathwater. That's right. Yeah. But Zach, I think you're on the right... I agree 100%. I think you're on the right, you're moving in the right path in the right direction by talking about overall game numbers, you know, populations, things like that. It totally makes sense. But what happens when we see tough times, we see tough times in Nevada, we see tough times in Utah or whatever, you get argumentative on the system and splitting the pies we're talking about because everybody's angry. We're angry. We're in this long-term drought down here in Southern Utah, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, you get angry. Deer tags are cut to nothing, and now, and then you're...

Yeah, and then you want your share, whatever, as a resident or whatever, and you're just angry. So, I guess I sympathize a bit with the residents too, and then you're, and then you guys are up against a major winter kill, and whatnot. And so, there's a lot of doom and gloom, you know, and so then it increases that animosity and argumentativeness. I guess, so to speak. Yeah. Well... And I've got a different perspective, too, that I would recommend, that I hope everybody would appreciate, is a lot of people ask me, well, were you going to get a deer tag this year? Are you going to get a deer tag? You know, kind of seeing if I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and everything else. And what I recommend to everybody is go buy the deer tag, buy the conservation tag, put some money into the gaming fish to allow them to do the projects and the burns and the stopovers

Let's continue to help fund the Game and Fish's process, because I do believe they do some good stuff. And go out there, spend the time with your family, your kids, and your wife, and your friends, and everything. Go out and hunt, but just be selective. Just because you have a deer tag in your pocket, you don't have to kill something. So, that's what I've told everybody. I'm still going to get a deer tag, but I probably, 99% of the chance, won't pull the trigger, It's a trigger, but I'm going to go out and still be in God's country and enjoy it and help the game and fish's cause and everything else we can. And if a 220-inch buckwalks crop, I'm not going to stop. Oh, you're smashing it. Or you call your friends. Yeah, exactly. So, that's where my head is. And I guess my point is that I've told everybody, you as the person, so the game and fish,

whatever season they set, what tags they reduce, don't reduce, everything else, we still have the powers of people To go out there, and I've told these guys, hey, if you don't need the meat, and you don't have the interest in it, really, and you're okay not getting the deer tag for a couple years, I think that's a great move. You know, you just have the power to buy the tag and then just not use it. It's hard for people to go home empty, though. We've talked about it with Colorado guys. We've joked about it. If we could have enough carrots to dangle out there, I would love to do it in every state. Send us in your unused deer tag that you decided not to kill a two-point or a 20-inch four-point on two-year-old buck the last day, and we're going to draw awesome prizes. And I wish we could have hundreds of thousands of deer tags sent in that don't get big. Hundreds of thousands of dollars.

But I don't know how we could make that a big enough carrot to incentivize some of them, but it's the concept I love, actually. I do, too. Because, yeah, there's... and we're not talking about kids or, you know, we're just talking about guys that have hunted a lot of mule deer in their life. Kids and young hunters need to harvest. It's part of learning, and it's part of the whole process. But at some point, when you're a 50-year-old guy, and you've killed how many bucks over the course of how many years, you don't need to smash the next forky you see, or whatever, or just a buck. And if you need meat, there's cow elk tags everywhere. I mean, nobody shoots a mule there for the meat, like, rarely. You don't go non-resident and spend $1,500 on your trip. There's plenty. If you need the meat, there's plenty of meat tags.

Yeah, non-resident. We talked about them, the does, whatever. Tag fee, gas, motel, everything you're there, just go to spend 300 bucks on the meat at the grocery store. And I know it's not venison. Okay, you can give me every argument in the world, but... It's not the most pure protein on planet Earth, but... No, I mean, there's something to be said. I mean, obviously, we fill our freezers full of game meat. You know, my kids are out hunting and whatnot. But I think you're definitely on to something. We could get behind that 100%.

Yeah. Well, we don't want to keep you all day. We know you got snow to plow. We do. We got a life to live. You got wells to keep. You got dead animals to throw in the back of, you know, great big dump trailers. But tell us, I mean, Zach, you're our guest on here, and we appreciate you coming on. But I mean, is there something else that you want to discuss, you know, that's kind of, that you've been wanting to air out a little bit? I mean, any other angle that you're thinking about? You know, the only other thing that I struggle processing, and I guess I ask people to be thinking about, is the other controversy I deal with a lot and get a lot of questions on and stuff is the shed antler stuff. I mean, Utah did the statewide lockdown until May 1st and everything else.

You know, the oil and gas, we get beat up a lot behind the scenes regarding migration corridors and all this other stuff. And Monteith writes articles about the oil and gas, you know, it makes it hard on the wildlife and everything, which I literally, you know, do not agree with, obviously, being said I'm in the field with these animals and people daily. But, one thing that I've noticed is, this year, we're talking about not starting a lot of our oil and gas projects on May 1st. We're talking about moving it to May 15th or even June 1st. So, as an oil and gas company, we're willing to sacrifice revenue, sacrifice some things that don't help us. Legally, you could do it May 1, and to heck with everything else. That's what you're saying. Yeah, we could. Yep, and we've made the decision internally to try to give these animals a little bit of an extra break.

And, you know, I struggle with it a little bit. It's like everybody always says, you know, I'm all about conservation and all about the critters and all this other stuff. And it just blows my mind. You have these conversations with them. I've had a lot of conversations with some really good guys that are like, Like, nope, there should be no antler protection rules whatsoever. That's our state, it's our land, it's our antlers and all this. And I get that. Trust me, I'm a hardcore Republican. I get it. I get it, 100%. But I also think on the other side, I mean, coming from when I was a youth in Kemmerer, growing up in Kemmerer, I mean, I was out there waiting for them to fall off the heads, man. I picked up some stellar bucks back in the day just sitting there camping out. Now that I'm almost 40 years old, I look back and I have a different perspective on it now.

I think people need to think about the animal, realize that it's just a horn. I mean, yes, it's cool to get it into your collection and everything else, but it's just an antler. Give these animals a break. That's all I'm saying, is give them a break. I mean, if you think about all these negative 20 and 30 and 40 degree days these animals around me have had to endure, I mean, you know, maybe you would have a little more compassion. And seeing their heads, you know, laying in the snow, like they're just asking, you know, they're praying for some sunshine, you know. And I just, I ask everybody to put your horn hunting thing to the side and just think about the critter for once.

And that's just my two cents. I know, you know, I've had that conversation with a lot of people, and a lot of people, you know, they're just like, nope, I should, you know, I should be allowed to go out there and get them the day they fall off. Your point is, May 1 is not late enough legally, but do the right thing and just hold off like we are in the industry of making money in oil and gas. Maybe hold off. Don't go chasing them around May 1 just because you can. Which non-residents can't. We got a little bit of a, they give us a week after you guys, I guess. Well, and you may check into that, because I don't think that gets signed into effect until July of this year. Okay, so it'll be for next year. I don't think that's until next year. But yes, there was a discussion of that three to seven days.

I struggled with that whole thing, too. Now, I do agree about the non-residents buying the conservation tag to come in here and shed hunt. I know all the discussions there, the honest are only going to be the ones buying the conservation, the unhonest will, and everything else. But I do agree with that, because I'll tell you what, most of us that are putting in for tags anyways are going to have a conservation stamp anyways, Because, you know, we'll draw a deer tag, or maybe come up here fishing or whatever. So, you're going to have one easy. Don't utilize the resource without paying something. That's your point. Yeah, exactly. I think there's no harm in it. It's like, I spend a lot of time, you know, I've raised almost just under a million bucks now that I've raised through Muley Fanatics and put on the ground, you know, since 2015. So, a short span, a short window of doing that.

And, you know, I just encourage people, if you can help on these projects, you can help with fence removals. You know, these old abandoned fences we remove all the time, and mowing projects and burns. And, you know, man, I just encourage people, if we can put some funds on the ground. Now, how do you translate that to more deer on the landscape? I've always struggled with that. You know, it's like, how do you know how many deer you've helped or put on the landscape? I mean, that's a hard thing to quantify, but what we do know is it doesn't hurt. It doesn't hurt to do these projects and stuff. So, I believe in the conservation thing. Put a little bit more money on the land, as long as it's being used right. Now, I do struggle with the Wyoming Game of Fish. You know, they're spending $15 million on the Game of Fish homes in Jackson right now.

And I do, I'm just going to be honest with you, I struggle with that a thousand percent. Tell us how you really feel, Zach. Oh, man. Let's hear it. I mean, that was hard. I mean, 15 million bucks, you can do a lot of good with that. You can buy a lot of wall tents with that. I'm bummed about that. I like it. Hey, well, let's end this on a positive note, maybe. I'm just going to give you the opportunity, Bronson and I. We like to hear deer stories. Do you want to tell us a big old buck story? I'll tell you about last year. So, I ended up shooting a 30-inch wide 3x4. It was a buck that I did not see the other side on, the way he was bedded and everything, but shot a great buck. My buddy Ray Alexander shot a great buck.

What was unique is we horse hunt, we got horses and mules, and so we're in there, you know, five, five and a half miles, and then we do everything on foot after that point. We try to go where nobody else would go. Well, we kill raised deer a couple days into the hunt, then we go a couple days longer into the hunt, and we end up taking my buck. And we're coming back, and we look up, and it's about 180 yards is a buck standing there that's probably, I'd say, 225, 230, somewhere in that range. I mean, dark chocolate horde, 35. Not a deer you've seen on social media showing up on the Winter Range or anything like that? I haven't seen it, man. I haven't seen it on anything, and I don't believe. I mean, we were having late season age. I actually sent my dad back in there on foot. He went all the way in there on foot, not killed him, but he went in there, never could drum him up again.

But the part of the story that'll make you sick. So, we're walking across the hill to shoot my buck, and we're going in and out of the trees and rocks and everything else. And I look up, and I see this thing running away from me, and I said, man, that looked like an elk. Well, it ran into the trees. I mean, all I could see was antlers, you know, and it ran into the trees. And Ray's like, what do you think it was? I said, I think it was just an elk, man. We go over, shoot my buck, come back, and right where that thing had ran into the trees, that buck was standing there. So, I literally walked. I literally walked. I had him at like 200 yards at that point and walked by him. Oh, that was a raghorn bull. Let's go after the buck. Exactly. That was a bull elk. I mean, jeez. I told Ray, I said, we've been doing this all these years.

We figure you have all those bugs worked at you, and you still would do a bonehead move, you know? I'm pretty good at species identification, if you want to take me along. I could help you out there. Yeah, there you go. Geez. Well, so what you're saying is there's always a surprise out there waiting for you. A deer you didn't even know about, or nobody knew about. Pretty special. Wow. Well, you've killed some giants. I mean, what's your biggest bug? I mean, I just want you to brag for a minute. I don't know why. Oh, Neil, I appreciate that. But no, the biggest one I've got is, and I'm not sure if it's still the state record or not, I know that Gil Roden killed a beautiful bud as well. He killed a giant, heavy slob, just a giant. Yeah, but mine is 240 gross, and then 236 in the eighth net. He's 27th in the world, and then he's archery.

He was rubbing, so that's a hard antler score? Remind me, he's kind of rubbed when you kill him. Partially rubbing. I mean, you didn't save that, did you? I couldn't, man. I wanted to. I'll be honest with you. I would have went without the score to keep that velvet on. But it was coming off. So, that's a hard antler, 236 net is all there is. There's no velvet. Raw calcium. Just bone. Geez. Well, we had pictures in our mag. Yeah, years ago. What year was that? 2000? 2015. 2015? Okay. Yeah, and then that Pope and Young does a thing called a biennium awards, and what that is, is every two years, they find the largest mule deer killed in the world. You understand the world's North America, but in the world, and he was also issued that. So, he was issued, the buck was issued first place in the 2015-16 biennium. So, he was the largest killed in the world in those two years. With a bow, yeah.

And then there was a guy from Utah, yep, guy from Utah that came in second place. He lost to that buck by an inch. And then he also, something kind of cool that not a lot of people know about, He got what's called a Washakie Award. The tribe down in Riverton, they've got the Washakie Indian Reservation and everything else. They actually gave the buck an award for one of the largest killed in Wyoming. I guess this award's only been given out like six or seven times in its lifetime, and it's been around for 40, 50 years. Gee, I didn't even know that. Yeah, he ended up getting that award. I got invited to the Indian Reservation, and they showcased the buck at a banquet, and he ended up getting the Washakie Award. It's a cool award. Got an Indian. It wasn't harvested on the res, though, was it? No, they just gave an award for anything.

They're just saying, hey, just statewide, the state of Wyoming. Yep, just a Wyoming, the way they explained it to me is just, you know, kind of glorifying, you know, the works for the buck itself, and just glorifying, you know, a special, something special from the state of Wyoming. Special deer. Is that the same place where that lady killed that 280 or 90 buck about 10 or 15 years prior? That was the Wind River Res. Was it that, Rez? Right? Yeah, same reservation. Yeah. Is it? Wind Rivers. Yeah. Yeah. Wow, that buck was a buck. But I killed him in G. So, I killed mine in Unit G. Yeah, but hers was 10 or 15 years prior to your dog. On the res, but just one of those that stand out in your mind, kind of like your deer. Just, geez. Deer special, aren't they, Zach? I mean, geez. Unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah, it's a thing you're blessed, man. So, things you're blessed.

Well, good luck to you this year. We hope that, I mean, what's gonna happen is gonna happen. Now, I've had a lot of people saying, why aren't they doing more in Wyoming to feed? We're like, if you know how widespread this is, and how really, it's not like we got, I mean, you can't even get to most of these places in the Red Desert. It's like what you're talking about with the 600 dead bodies. In one little hunt unit area. A tiny little area. Like, that's everywhere in southern parts. So, you can't, there's sometimes what's going to happen is going to happen at this stage. Nature's brutal. And we just, we hope that there's, it's decent. I mean, hey, I'll probably still be there. I think so. There's going to be some big deer. Sign me up. They did have, we did look at some harvest rates the year after these hard winters, and it's generally 30 to 50 percent down harvest rates.

But, you know, our contention is a lot less, a lot smaller, a lot less smaller deer, young deer. You know, a lot less of those that are even there to be shot. Yeah. So, that factors into it partly. Well, we appreciate your time, Zach, and I know you're busy, and you're obviously very passionate, Very passionate, and just thought you popped in our head today. You know, we've been talking about Wyoming a bunch. Of course, deadlines not till May 31st for deer and antelope, but... Got some time. There's gonna be a lot to weigh out this year. It's not gonna be the same, especially, like I said, for antelope deer either, but we appreciate your time talking to us today. Appreciate it, Zach. You're awesome, buddy. Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate you guys inviting me on. Wish you the best, and, jeez, congratulations on a 30-incher in 2022. I'd go look for that raghorn bull again.

I would, too. I might grab an elk tag this time. Yeah, next year. Next year. Hopefully, he's still there. All right. Take it easy. Appreciate you. Take care. Okay. Yeah, caught him off just a little early. Pretty awesome, Bronson. It's good to get a resident on. It's good to talk about. It's one thing to read about in the papers and all, and it's the same. It's not like we're seeing something in the news that's not been bared out with everybody we're talking to. It's just, it's unfortunate. And these antelope, the pictures we're seeing in places of dozens just curled up like husky dogs with their, you know, noses curled around them, and they're all just dead in the sagebrush. They just, when you're dying in the dozens in a herd together... It'd be hard to watch. It's hard to see. Yeah. I'm sure, being a resident And, dude, I think it's smart for him to pick up the carcasses.

Oh, yeah, well, yeah, because there is a lot of research, you know, back from my biology days, up around Strawberry Reservoir in Utah. The number one nest predator are, well, red fox, but ravens. Ravens, they're the smartest flipping animal. I mean, they can get into your cooler with a padlock on it. I don't know how they can do it, but they can do stuff like that. They can pick the lock or whatever. They are smart birds.

And they'll find a sage grout. I mean, their eyesight's unbelievable, and so they'll find a bird, go around and kick her off the nest and just crush her eggs. And so, yeah, if you litter the place with, if you're drawing in by carcasses, you know, bagpies, ravens, all that. Take it on the beak. They're gonna take it on the beak. Huh? Absolutely. Hey, I want to tell you something positive. Oh, let's have it. Really positive. Really? Today is the Colorado deadline. 8pm, boss. Come 5. We don't have to sift through all that. We've been sifting through some calls. It's been awesome. We actually enjoy talking to everybody and helping them make plans, but man, people are not slowing down. They're looking to use zero to one point, two points, whatever they got. It's going to be interesting. Yeah, it's, you know, can't come too soon though.

I'm looking forward to tomorrow. What are we going to do tomorrow? We're gonna talk about somebody's Colorado plans for 2024. It always happens. It always, always happens. It's fun. It's fun. It's just... How to talk about Colorado. You're like, okay. You know, the deadline was last night. Oh, yeah, yeah. I just did points only, but can we talk about next year? It's so fun. It just is. I mean, there's so much excitement around this kind of stuff, and tags are life. Bronson, tags are life. It kind of is, and this time of year, or this year, In particular, there's building optimism in some states, New Mexico, Arizona, Southern Utah, Southern Nevada. And then there's, just like we've gotten done talking about, Wyoming and even Southern Idaho, Northern Utah. There's feeling like a lot of doom and gloom in those

situations, and it's unfortunate. So, there's, we've said it a million times, nothing stays the same. Hey, I was in the boat, I could use my antelope points last year in Wyoming. Archibald did. Wyatt did. I didn't. Now, I don't know when I'm going to use mine again. It's going to be yours, probably, because I want to hunt something when it's really ripe. You want to get it when it's... You want to hunt some ABS. Yeah. Freaking black pie. Black four-inch ABS coming out of the head. You know, that's what I want. You've described bucks like that. I want to see one like that. I showed you video. Yeah. And it was true. Huh? I might put in there this year. Who knows? We'll see.

Alright, well, alright everybody. Well, if you want to support us here at Epic Outdoors or call in to visit on a regular basis, get our publication and check out what we have going on, go online, epicoutdoors.com. You can go on there, join as a member. It's somewhat inexpensive, this day and age, $150 for an annual fee. Or call us at 435-263-0777 and we'd be happy to visit with you, help you, make plans. Everything to do with Western big game, Canada, Alaska, Mexico. That's what we do here at Epic Outdoors, and we're not changing. Alright, Bronson, I'm freaking ready for lunch. Time for lunch.

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