EP 30: Hound Hunting with Josh Horrocks

There's certain areas that there's one big lion or two big lions that work this area. You kind of develop and know where the cougars walk and where they move and how cats act. They got to work through the rocks and bare ground. Anything to do with western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter and Adam Bronson here with the Epic Outdoors and the Epic Outdoors podcast. We got a super exciting guest with us here today. It's a good friend of both Adam and I's, Mr. Josh Horrocks. He's been an amazing guy through the years. Of course, runs an awesome outfitting operation for lions, bears, and leopards as well as deer and elk. Let's get started. Let's give old Josh a call.

What do you think, Bronson? This ought to be good.

That's his ringtone. Come on, Josh.

What do you think he's doing today?

He might have dropped his phone in a crack in the cliffs as he's trailing dogs.

Hello. Hey, what are you doing?

Well, I just had to go hunting again today and trying to trail a cougar up but not having much luck. Oh, yeah? One of them 40-year-old type cougars? No. No, this is a long-tailed tan one.

Okay, all right. I guess.

Okay. So, even though it's 100 degrees, you think you've got to kill a lion every day of the year. Who hunts lions in June, Josh? Oh, it actually gets funner because it's harder to do and the dogs have to work more. And it's just actually funner to somebody that likes to watch the dogs work and hunt a little more, you know? Yeah. Instead of just blaze up a fresh track in the snow and tree it in 28 minutes and you're like, oh, that wasn't really fun, huh? Yeah, a lot of times you can turn a poodle loose on some of them and catch them.

The poodle, dude. Smell it.

So, where are you at? Well, you don't have to tell me exactly where you're at, but you sent a picture to us this morning. I don't know. You're out in the middle of nowhere. Your dog's out? Yeah, we're out trailing. We're hung up on a big old cliff and they planted these bighorn sheep here and they just ate pretty much all the new transplants out of there. About four or five searches trying to save the ones that are left, I guess. I was going to tell you in that picture, it looks like sheep country and it is. Yeah. Dang it. At least the lions are eating well. Those are expensive steaks, you know? Them are really expensive.

It's awesome. Trying to save the bighorn.

Just fly some more out here. The chickens are getting hungry. Yeah, my lions are hungry. Let's fly some more sheep out here.

Right on. So, let's see. Have you got a minute? Because you're probably like the heat of the day is when you'd rather be doing a podcast probably. Not right now when the dog's working. I kind of meant to good myself out a little bit to do this, you know what I mean? Yeah. When the temperature index gets like this too, it's probably like regular employers. Your dogs are your employees, so you got to give them 15-minute water breaks every hour. So, you know, it's like this.

I'm like the boss. They're out working and I can sit down in the shade and watch the GPS. That sounds like Chris. Chris is in the shade watching the GPS making out of my work. Well, good. Well, give us a little of your background, Josh. I know, you know, anybody that spent a lot of time with you, you know, obviously, or any, even a little bit of time knows that you love lion and bear hunting with your dogs and whatnot. But, of course, you do a lot of different things. But maybe to start off with, let's talk about, you know, your youth. And I know you went to school a little bit there in Utah State, which is where I went as well. And just talk about, you know, coming up through the ranks and, you know, growing up in a hunting environment and then kind of how you got to where you're at today. Well, first of all, I'm just an animal lover, you know.

When I was, my parents bought a ranch in Unit 21 on Whiskey Creek out in the Book Cliffs in Colorado, right on the Utah-Colorado line. But mom worked in town two and a half hours away and dad was busy on the ranch. So they just, a lot of times they'd locked me up in the chicken coop for short periods of time so they could work. They did not. Told you don't kill your brothers and split you up in pens. Come in and check on me. I'd be sitting on the eggs, smashing them, walking around like a chicken or playing with the dogs and the ducks. And that's all I had to play with for a while. They finally got me a wooden egg to sit on so I quit smashing the good eggs.

But just always loved the animals growing up, you know. Yeah. And you got to be passionate about something to do it really well. And I just love, love the hounds and love, love the dogs, you know. And, and then, yeah. Moved back to town when I was five to go to school. And told dad I wanted a hound. He got me a bassa hound. Come on. Hunting cotton tails, huh? With it? Chased the pet rabbits around in the yard with it and told him this wasn't going to cut it. And then we got to where it got some. Had to bake, flea, and steal to get me a real hound to take. But, but anyway, yeah, they, I was going to school. I always liked to get in fights at school and stuff and would get kicked out of school. And my dad started buying the gas for these two old boys in town if they'd take me with them hunting the hounds. Yeah.

And they loved to take me because I do all the walking and all the work and get to the tree and get to the dogs. And so I just developed a passion for it, you know. Yeah. Killed my first lion when I was 12, which I was with them. They did all the work. I just pulled the trigger. But caught my first lion by myself when I was 15. Dad let me take the truck, even though I wasn't old enough to drive. Went out, found a track close to town and caught a lion. With your own dogs? Yeah, with my own dogs, which I had. Them old guys, they kind of got out of the hounds and let me have them old dogs they had. So I had a couple old dogs that would do it and a couple other dogs that just run wild and rampant everywhere. Yeah. Then went to college and I told my parents I would go and do good, but I had to take my hounds. They wouldn't let me.

So the first semester I showed them and I flunked every class I took. And then they said, all right, we'll let you take your hounds. So I lived there in them old farm apartments and tied them up behind the dumpsters there. I remember that. Dude, you were skinning a lion in the tree right there on campus or basically at campus housing. Oh, yeah. We hung it right there from our dorms. The skin is a good lion running up there around the cash molly. No, I remember it. And then, shoot, I'd have to dig in the cafeteria dumpsters to feed them. And then their English classes, you had to write reports and stuff. And I'd write them all on hunting with hounds. Like Old Yeller and Yellow Eyes and all those old lion hunting books that we used to read as kids, huh? Yeah, it was like more documented research on cougars and collars and documented stuff.

I tried to make it professional so I could get the grade. And then, oh, Dwight Isrelson, he was the economics professor. And he had deer mounts and everything else in his office up there. And I started hunting cougars with him. Killed him a big old mountain lion. And then everybody teases me that's how I got my economics degree. Well, I know that's what it was. I had a class from him, too. You know you got a grade from that, no? Oh, it helped out big time.

We killed that cougar over Christmas break. And our class was about 200 people big. And he put all the pictures in that whole first class when we got back from Christmas break. He put all the pictures and told the story for the whole class time. Oh, my gosh. I can't believe it. He's quite an awesome guy. And then got out of college and just farmers and ranchers. And we'd been leasing our ranch to other outfitters and having a hard time getting them to pay us. And I'd go and work for them, too, on my breaks and whatever. And just got out of college and just started doing it myself. Yeah. Riding and outfitting hunters. So it just kind of went from there. So what did you call home? Like, was it Vernal? Vernal. So we're talking, you know, just for people that don't know, basically northeast Utah. Most people know it by the promised land. Mormon country, you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. Yep.

We've heard it called other things, too. But we'll go with that for the show.

Yeah. So and then a lot of oil country up there. But and I know, you know, I think you've even maybe you do have some things going on in the oil field. But it seems like I know you've had opportunities at that, but you've kind of stuck to hunting. Yeah, I do a lot of hunting there. Try to make as most time as possible so I can just hunt every day. Try to develop a life where I can do what I love every day and have been quite successful at it. And there's nothing worse if a guy wants to go do something and you're stuck somewhere else. So I've tried to keep my life to where I could do what I want and go hunting when I want. And the dogs have always been my passion and is what's driven it. I mean, it was terrible when you had to go to work instead of being able to hunt your dogs or go to school because you had to hunt your dogs.

So you just I just had to find a way to be able to go and hunt every day and do the things with my dogs that I wanted to do. And have been very successful in finding a way to do that.

Well, as we start off, take us just a quick overview before we dive in to the middle of this thing. You know, give us a quick overview of your year. How does it look? Start us through January. I know you've got a lot of different species, a lot of different things you're guiding for. Of course, you know, we help you with a few hunters here and there and and you've done great for our clients. And so just but just start us maybe January 1st. Of course, you're lion hunting. But then take us through the year. Like, how does a guy make a living 12 months out of the year doing what you're doing? I know you've got other things in other countries. Like, just kind of take us through that. And then we'll and then we'll kind of take it from there. Well, it is just all part of finding the process of being able to hunt every day how I wanted to hunt.

And, you know, a guy kind of has got to find something year round to do, or at least I had to. And we're very fortunate here where I live. I mean, it's a game abundant area. And Utah is very good with their seasons and regulations, especially for hound hunting. And but yeah, I mean, our cougar season runs year round here. So that's a wonderful thing. And, you know, we'll basically run around 20 to 25 cougar hunters a year. And, you know, they'll basically run from November through April for the most part of them. Just easier hunting in and what have you. And then April and May start killing some bears. And then June and July, you got to think about going to Africa and hunting leopards with the hounds. And I've done that for eight years. Jeez.

And spend a month to two months over there killing leopards with clients or just killing leopards with ranchers that need them killed, that are killing their livestock. They don't have a government program over there. They just got to hire private citizens to take care of their problems or take care of their problems themselves. And then August start killing some cow elk. And September and October, killing mill deer and elk. And even made eight trips to the Northwest Territories. And end of July and August. A little fun for yourself, right? Yeah, killing sheep. You guys, I know you and your dad and brothers all been up there on several different times killing stuff up north. Yeah, sheep and moose and caribou. It's good people and good times up there too, you know. So you can find something all over the earth year-round to hunt if a guy's got the passion to get it done, you know.

And then you're back to November and it all starts over again, hunting cats. I moved from one species to the next. Jeez. How many days a year are you hunting, Josh? Like, what do you figure? Oh, that one year, a couple years ago, my wife, she read it on the calendar all the nights I was gone from home. And it was like 248, something like that. Oh, Josh. I don't like those calendars. Those calendars are not a man's best friend. Those lie. They lie. Well, my God, I'm really blessed to have a really good wife. She understands, which that's what puts our food on the table too, so that makes a difference. But she is really blessed to have a really good and understanding wife. And we just kind of explained all this to her before we got married, so she kind of knew to go around before this came about. You know what? She signed up for it, so to speak, huh?

Well, they all say they know what they're signing up for, but then once they're in the middle of it, they're like, I never knew. Yeah, I never got that from her. I got a good one too. I got a good one too, and she'll listen to this and probably give me that look. But she's super. So anyway, a guy can't do it without him. You have to have a supporting wife. A good woman will make her break you, guaranteed. Yeah. He's broke a lot of good men, so.

Well, tell us a little bit. I mean, you told us a little bit how you started getting into hounds, and that was with some of these old-time friends or your dads or whoever, and getting into it as a teenager. Sure, but let's talk a little bit about it from there on, what it takes to train a good hound, how many dogs you have right now. I mean, those are interesting things. How many of them, you know, make the cut, so to speak, because I'm sure there's cull dogs, just like everything else, that just don't have what it takes. And tell us about that process of what it takes, because I think a lot of people that come out and hunt with somebody like yourself, they see the finished product, and it's never easy, but it's somewhat of an oiled machine, and you can tell us whether it's well-oiled or rusty in spots, but they, the lot goes into getting to where, you know,

to the point where hunters show up with you, turn the dogs loose and chase the lion or bear and kill it. You have to have the passion for it. You know, Jason Carter and his passion to kill big mule deer. He has the passion. He goes out. He makes it happen every day. Adam Brunson and his passion for killing big sheep. You know what I mean? You got to have the passion for it, and then that develops the drive and the work ethic. And it's no different for people that have businesses and what they do in their businesses or even raising your own kids. It's all about the passion, which turns into the work ethic and the drive that you put into it to make it all happen. Your hounds are only as good as the owner. And, you know, a lot of hounds can talk about these dogs or that dogs. It's big talk. And it is true to a point.

It's always nice to have some kind of dog that is bred for something a little different here and there. But the number one thing is, is the hound is only as good as the owner. And, I mean, I've seen guys in Africa take any junk dog they could find off the street and make good dogs out of them, you know. And so you got to have that passion and desire, number one, for whatever it is that you want to do in life. And then the harder you work at it and the more you do it, the more passion you have, the better you are with it. That's what drove me, like what we talked about earlier, being able to develop a life where I can go out and do what I want every day. And, and, but yeah, I mean, I have 72 hounds right now. I have a hound dog. How many pallets of food do they eat every day? I go through about a pallet and a half a month. Jeez.

But they, it's just my addiction and my passion and what I love to do. And it's, yeah, I just love doing it. So you go out there and you play with them dogs and you work with them dogs and you hunt them dogs. Found a way to take hunters to pay for it because it's very expensive. And there's a lot of fun derived from taking the client out and killing them something. And watching their eyes open up real big and showing them an experience that they'll never forget for the rest of their life. And you got to be a part of that. You know what I mean? Yeah. And all the hunting that I've done, I can do that more with hounds. I love to goon hunters out or freak them out and just give them that holy cow moment. You know what I mean? And they'll remember it for the rest of their life. You told me about one of those holy cow moments.

Do you remember that bear that crossed the road when we were up lion hunting on the book cliffs? And you were talking about that bear that charged that family came back on them? Oh, yeah. Yeah, we were hunting with the tribe over there. We had about 10 Indians with us. And at any rate, no, we've had some holy cow moments with you and your friends, you know. Oh, yeah. We build a couple lines together and you'll never forget those hunts. Or your friends that are with you, you'll never forget them either. I'll guarantee you, you know. Tell me about that.

What about that? Tell me that bear story again. I forgot half of it. Oh, well, the Ute Indian Reservation, they hadn't allowed white man in there for a while. And they hired me to go in there as their houndsman. And we'd go in there. We had an open charge account at the Ute Plaza grocery store. So we ate good. But there's some big old nasty bears in there. But them bears get kind of dominant and big when they get old. And we were hunting them in June when they were mating, too. So then they get a little bit more nosy. But one big old bear, he just stayed on the ground fighting the dogs. And we got in there close. And that hunter shot him. Bear coming up and shot him. Bear coming running right at us. And Turner tried to turn and run. And I just grabbed him by the shoulders. And he pulled up and shot from the hit. Shot him in the head. And the bear rolled right in front of us.

And I turned around and looked and had about 10 Indians running backwards. All they could see was long black hair waving in the wind going down the trail.

Oh, jeez. Yeah. It seemed like you prepped them for it, too. And then it actually happened just teasing them, getting them wound up. Oh, yeah. You got to goon them out as much as you can. Not just at least. You got to make sure they don't forget their experience. Or else you failed as a guide, you know. Well, the little few times in my life I've actually hunted with houndsmen, you know, it seems like an ordinary chase can go to an ordinary very, very fast in one way, shape, or form. And I'm sure you've seen it all. And we can get to some of those, you know, I'm sure we could talk for two, three, four hours just about experiences like that. Yeah. So you got 72 dogs. Do you memorize their name? I mean, do you know every single dog? Oh, yeah. I mean, 10 of those are little pups right now, you know. But the ones you're hunting and the ones you're working with, you know their names.

You know the sound of their voice. You know if they're trailing or if they're treeing or if they're baying. You just learn their language. Yeah. Just like your kids. You're not your own kids. It's no different raising kids or horses or hounds. It's all the same. So when you say a hound is only as good as its owner, tell me a little bit more. Tell us a little bit more about that. Because I'm naive to that. I would think a dog is born more with it than can be taught it, so to speak, which is kind of what you're alluding to. So tell me about the difference of how to make a good hound based on your personal perspective on hound hunting. It's just all about the time and the work you put into the dog. You know what I mean? It's all about the time and the work Jason Carter puts into killing a big mule deer. It's all about the time that Adam Brunson puts into killing a big sheep.

It's all the same, you know. It's all about time and passion. And so is it something you're training them every day? Let's say you got these pups. You got these 10 pups. Let's go through the training regimen and kind of the schedule, maybe your daily schedule of how you're doing that. Obviously, you're working with them every day. I mean, or nearly every day. Yeah, I mean, every day there's something being done with the dogs. You know what I mean? Rather, you're just letting them off the chain and petting them. Or if you're taking them, you know, I do a lot of coon hunting. I love a good coon hunt. Or if I'm taking them out trailing lions or trailing bears or trailing bobcats. Or if I'm just taking them a walk out through deer and elk and bighorn sheep and antelope, just letting them know that's not something that we want to hunt. You know what I mean?

And you do that from the time they get off their mama's tit. And they're a lot easier to train, actually, when they're younger. They soak up a lot of knowledge and retainment in their mind. And I keep my pups up at our cabin, up on our ranch, up on the mountain. And they run rampantly all over. And they learn to come to my whistle. And they learn to come to me. And we go for walks. And we just hang out. But at the end of the day, they're a tool used for hunting. God invented them to catch game. That's their use. And that's what they're invented for. And you just develop that with them. Yeah. Sounds like they're, I mean, a lot more of a, I mean, we have these with our normal, I guess, family dogs. These bonds and things like that. But that's what you're kind of creating with 72 of them, so to speak. I'm sure they all have personalities and things like that.

But you're trying to get them to understand you, what you're trying to get them to do. And then, in a way, trying to get them to live and have as much passion for catching a lion as you do. You're living vicariously through them, so to speak. Because you, you know. You'll get a lot more out of them. You'll do a lot more with them, with the love that you give them. And so they work for the love. They love and they know when they've done a good day's work and they've done their job. They know they're a very smart animal. Dogs will just amaze you on what they can develop and what they can do. And that's just part of the amazing part of it all also. You know, like, we take all these clients out hunting. And like you say, you know, they see the end result and they're there. They want to kill their cougar and they want to experience the whole atmosphere and everything that goes on.

And, you know, they get that experience. And that's part of what they pay for when they come and do a hunt with you. And, you know, that's part of your job is being a guide on what you need to provide for your hunter. And, you know, a lot of those people don't have the time or the passion to develop what different people develop with their dogs, you know. But they pay to come and experience it. And, you know, the kill is always fun. But, you know, it's a small part of the whole hunt and the whole experience that you provide to your client. What, tell us what type, I mean, you may have different breeds of dogs. What do you like to settle on or what types of hounds do you use for the most part, I guess? Or is it varied over the years, but where are you kind of settled at now? Well, I'm not a racist person. I have every shape and color of hound that there was ever invented. I like them.

You got a few bassets out of the 72 or what? Oh, my God. I'm not into hunting the cottontail rabbits or what I have. Okay, just checking. Just hounds. No short-legged hounds in the bunch. Well, some are shorter, some are fatter, some are skinnier. They're kind of like people, you know. Some are prettier and some are uglier. I got some of every shape and size and color. I mean, I go out there and I just look at my dogs when I ain't hunting them. And I like just looking at them, you know what I mean? But they're all good. The number one thing is they're only as good as their owner. And then after that, you can get certain ones that have a little bit bred for a few more tendencies than others. And hunting in different conditions or different terrains or different species that you're hunting.

Well, I'm sure it's like anything, Josh, like not everybody's cut out and does good at, you know, running big machinery. Or not everybody's cut out for different things. And, like, you know, we all, at times, I'm thinking, I'd like to have a couple of dogs and run lines and stuff. But, I mean, you're only, you know, like what you're saying, and it rings true, is you're only going to get out of it what you put into it. And not everybody's, you know, designed to be a dog trainer or a dog, you know, one of these, you know, something that for working hounds and maybe something that you're living, you know, is based off of. So, probably takes a special person to, you know, to, I mean, how long did it take you to learn how to train dogs or be good at it or? It took a long, lot of years for me to hunt them. And I'm still learning. Like, I learn stuff from people all the time, all the time.

It's a never-ending process. I'm still learning, and I probably always will be learning until I die. But it just takes a lot of time and a lot of hours. And just, you've got to have the passion for it to keep doing it. Because, you know, a lot of times, you'll know a good houndman when his trucks beat the crap and he ain't got nothing to speak for other than these dogs. Feeding these dogs and hunting them takes everything he's got, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Well, maybe now let's get into the X's and O's of hunting. What's, tell us through some of the process that you, how do you hunt? And obviously, it's different in different times of year when you've got snow on the ground for lions. We'll maybe just talk about lions for now versus, I think you're out in the hills today in June hunting.

It's totally different based on temperature, terrain, where the, you know, deer are, prey-based, bighorn sheep, elk, whatever. But tell us how that differs. And maybe when it turns, when it comes to snow and whatnot, when you know you got, what are you looking for in a lion track or whatnot that you know you want to even turn loose on? Well, you know, turning back to the first year question, it kind of depends on where the work's at and the time of year, you know. So, if you got clients calling you and they, you know, their bottom line, you know, they want to kill a cougar. Well, it's easier to kill cougars in the snow from November through April, you know what I mean, or even March, you know. And it's better on an outfitter, too. I mean, I can take a hunter out in one or two days, kill them a cougar, and move on, you know what I mean.

And so, try to get the clients in during those easier times to catch cougars. And, you know, a lot of times these clients, it depends on their physical capability, too, you know, depending on the client, depending on where I know where a cougar is. And what the client can handle and, you know, to provide a positive experience at the end of the day is what everybody is after. And, you know, so a lot of the, and then, you know, sometimes they get clients say, hey, I want to see, you know, more of a hunt. I'm in good shape. I've already killed a cougar. I say, okay, come out in the summertime. We'll go hunt one in the dirt, and you'll get to do a lot more walking and watching the dogs work and a lot more hunting before we catch a cougar. Or we might not even catch a cougar. But you'll get a lot more hunt out of the deal.

And so, you kind of explain things, and you fill your client out on stuff like that. Or, you know, if they need you to kill cougars that are killing all the collar bighorn sheep, you got to go there and do that. Well, tell us a little bit. Like, I know when I hunted with you, you know, you knew about specific lions in certain areas and whatnot. Like, are you finding that, like, you know about specific lions you left this last winter, and you know there's certain areas that there's one big lion or two big lions that work this area. And kind of like how maybe we key in on deer or sheep or elk. But, yeah, it's all the same, you know. I like to hunt my dogs year-round. So, you kind of build a database in your mind of where cougars are at and where they like to live from year to year. And where ones make Mark in his territory and where he's running. You know what I mean?

So, you kind of, you have a knowledge of where the cougar's at that you're going to kill for your client before your client even gets there. Yeah. Because if you've got to go out and look for a cougar before your client even gets there. From scratch. You're going to spend a week, the whole time he's there, just trying to find a cougar. And that's not very good business in my mind. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, you've just got areas you know, like, I know there's two lions running in this country or a lion in this country. And so, you're keying in on specific lions or whatnot. Right. Right. And we're very fortunate here in the promised land. I mean, we've got a lot of dinosaur national monument that nobody can hunt that borders us. And Indian reservations or private properties that nobody can hunt.

So, there's a lot of game coming in and out of those places that allow us to harvest a large amount of animals year after year. Yeah. And be successful at it. Kind of a refuge, you know, a refuge in a sense and symbolizer. And I know you also hunt in Colorado side. So, you've got another part of the, you know, another state. And some, like you said, fairly rough country. You've got wilderness up in the high country, summer range. You've got a lot going on, like you said. And how often are you in a common hunted area? Places you hunt every year multiple times. And all of a sudden, there's a magnum track. You're like, where does this thing come from? I mean, that has to happen. The coffee can track. Oh, yeah. It happens every year in the same places. I go through my spots. I kill cougars in all the same places. Give it four or five months, and cougars are right back in there, you know.

Just dispersing from wherever they're getting to an area. And they're like, hey, there's no big tom marking this up. I'm taking it. Because you've killed it, you know, you kill one, and something's going to fill the void, basically. Yeah, and, you know, our ranch actually goes into Colorado. And we have a lot of private property that we take deer and elk hunters on also. And we've got to thin them mountain lions out. I mean, our ranch borders the monument, actually goes in the monument on part of it. And if we don't stay on top of these predators, then our big mule deer bucks, they're the ones that get whacked through the winter. The ones that rutted the hardest. We can't have that, Josh. We need you to work harder. And then Jason Carter calls you up, and he's all pissed off. Or Adam Brunson calls you up, and he's all pissed off because the sheep are all dying.

I've only got two colored sheep left in the unit. And, yeah, where's Josh been? You just got to keep everybody happy when you can. How much country will a lion roam? So what does he call his home? Is it 10 square miles, 5 square miles, or 20? Like, what is it? There are hundreds. You know, that's a variable question. You know, the data and everything shows different stuff. But there's so many variables. I mean, a cougar can get kicked out of a place and travel hundreds of miles, they tell me, into a new place. You know, a tom looking for a female can travel hundreds of miles to find a female to mate with. Or, you know, if there's a female living there, she'll stay in one little hole as long as she's got water and deer and elk or sheep to kill. You know what I mean? She might not leave a half-mile radius. You know what I mean?

They don't want to exert any more energy than they have to to make a living or to reproduce. So it just depends on where they are in life. You get a 2- or 3-year-old tom that's, you know, getting kicked off a mama. Yeah. Your mama, you know, she's got to have a litter every, I don't know, 2-3 years. I don't know, Josh. And then, so you've got to have some dispersers. They've got to disperse at some point in their life. But then once they become, I guess, mature enough or dominant enough to hold the territory, yeah, they want to stay put. Just like us, close to home where you're close to the fridge and the TV, I guess, in their world. They don't want to roam until it's the time of year where they're thinking about other things than just a fresh kill and whatever. Like I said, roaming for breeding or getting run out of the country by dogs.

Well, it seems like I've even seen, like, little studies where they've collared a lion and crosses the San Rafael Desert, ends up on LaSalle Mountain or something. Like, there probably is some of that here and there. Oh, yeah. I mean, cougars, I mean, they're amazing animals. They're no different than house cats. They breed year-round, you know what I mean? If their kittens die or another tom kills their kittens, they'll breed right back up and they just, they reproduce like cottontail rabbits or just like your house cats in the yard, you know. They're a survivor and they reproduce quite rapidly and frequently. It doesn't take much for them to really get going. Well, what's the, like, what do you think the furthest distance is you've ever run your dogs on a track? Like how, I know it can be crazy amounts of time, but.

Well, sometimes you get, like, February when that snow gets crusty and the cougars don't like to move much because it tears up their pads. You know, you find a, and I, and it's thrilling to me also, you know, to find a week old track in the snow and trail that thing for two or three days clear across the mountain range and catch up to, you know, three days later. Pulling the dogs off at night, starting the track again in the morning, you know, type of deal. Yeah. And that leads to, you know, some good cold trailing and some good hunting. And I find that quite amusing and quite fun to do. And. Gratifying probably. Knowing your dogs are doing it. They're working hard. Yeah. And just because you're hunting in the snow, like you said earlier on a fresh snow, you know, you can turn a poodle loose and catch a lion, you know, that's just a saying. And sometimes it is true.

It's just easy sometimes. But what is the fastest since you brought that up? What's the fastest you've turned dogs loose out of your box and had them bark and treat on the line? Oh, you know, I've done that so much, you know, just a couple of minutes before I've had a line popped up a tree next to the side of the road. You know what I mean? Yeah. You never know. You can turn loose on a week old line track and catch him in five minutes or catch him in a week. You never know if that cougar's got something killed right there or has traveled to California. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it's part of the fun and part of the adventure just to see what's going to happen. It's probably for you. I bet it's anticlimactic when you turn them loose and they're treed in five minutes. You're like, oh, this is a boring day. I mean, it's a kind of little anticlimactic for you that does this all the time.

You probably want to see a struggle. You want, I mean, when I say a struggle, yeah, they hit a south facing slope and they got to, they got to work through the rocks and bare ground. And then all of a sudden after a couple hours, they've sorted it out and they're on the north slope, hit the snow again and cut it. And, you know, it's probably a little bit more gratifying and interesting for you, I imagine, that way. Yeah. You know, it depends on your client also. You know, I've taken guys that's had multiple heart attacks or guys with one leg and I've always got their cougar and I take a lot of pride in that. Wow. Yeah, that's good. And if I can always find them the easier cougar as possible, that makes it nice in that way also. What, you know, they've always said lions kill a deer a week. I mean, and of course, you're on some of these cold tracks and you're trailing for a long time.

You're ended up, I'm sure, on some kill elk or deer or sheep or whatever lion kills. But what are you finding? I mean, are you thinking that's legit? I mean, how many animals are they killing? It's a huge variable, Jason. I mean, I've seen so much. I mean, I've seen a lion come in and kill 30-headed domestic sheep in one night just to kill them. You know what I mean? Yeah. I've ran lions. I mean, 200-pound lion had a 350-class bully just killed, you know, and sitting on a rock 100 yards away from it. Some deer just walked by. He runs down there and kills one of them just to kill one with a belly full of meat. So mountain lions, I call them kind of like archery hunters. They're very no. This ought to be good. They're very opportunistic hunters. They do a lot of, like, laying around water where the animals come in to drink. Laying around trails and whatever, not exerting too much energy.

And once that opportunity presents itself, they kill. Yeah. And they'll, I've just seen them do, you know, you can hear so much, but the longer you do it, you see about anything. But I know one thing. They do love to kill, which that's the business they're in, is killing and eating. Well, and I'd imagine different times of year, whether it's, you know, hot in the summer and their kill spoils faster, or it's the winter where it can freeze up. And they, you know, you kill an elk in a, in a canyon. And if you don't want to, if they don't want to, or like you said, they're lazy and whatever, they can, they don't have to move much. You know what I mean? They got an elk and they're dominant enough to keep everything else off it. They're, they're set for weeks. You know what I mean?

I've, I've, I've run into places where the deer and elk will travel out of the high range, the summer and fall range into the winter range. And then animals use them same trails or passes and then lions sit in them. And I've seen where a 200 pound tom has had seven dead elk in a hundred, 150 yard radius. Come on. Just going down and whacking one. Whenever he feels like it. And that little pass he's going through and just lays there, walks another one they come through. Well, it's probably their personality. Each lion's a little different. Some of them probably thirst for that, you know, more than others. Or who knows? Who knows? Maybe it's the time in their life too. They're the biggest, baddest predator on the mountain. You take it, right. You take any species, a big mule deer or a big sheep. They find these little holes where they don't get bothered.

And they have all the food and water they want. And they have, you know, their reproduction stuff that they want there also. And they don't got to move. And that's part of what makes them big and old. Yeah. Some people talk about, you know, they might be a little worried about lions or close calls or anything like that. Of course, you hardly ever hear of much, you know, of an incidence. But have you had any close calls, lion and bear hunting? Oh, no, not really. I'm still alive, so they don't really count unless you get killed.

Unless you draw blood on yourself, you know, by a claw or a tooth. It's just part of the business, right? Yeah, you just kind of get immune to everything. And it doesn't become too big of a deal. Do you have some, I'm sure there are some, you know, just like you said, lions are different individuals. And I'm sure there are some that you know, and you probably have names for them. Maybe some you can't, you know, utter on the air. But they tear up your dogs and they have a habit of, you know, their fight. And they maybe killed some of your dogs. And I'm sure you have lions like that that are on your list because they're your fighter. Bears, like you say, it seems like I hear a lot more of it with bears. You know, as they get big, they'll just sit and swat and fight and walk in front and swat and fight. And tell they wear your dogs out to some extent.

But lions probably do that as well to some extent. Yeah, you know, when I was younger, you know, the dogs didn't get to get on as much games. So they weren't as smart as to know in their fighting range with a bear or lion or knowing the rocks and cliffs is good. So they got injured or even killed more often than they do now. Now that, you know. You're hunting more regular? Hunting more regular. They kill more, catch more gain. They know the fighting distance better. They know the terrain better, how to maneuver in it better. And they're just smarter. And they don't get that as much, you know. Or you take a lot of guys that just are able to hunt on weekends here or there and catch something. And you hear more problems. Archery hunters. I know you like archery hunters. Oh, yes. More and more people want to pretend like they're an Indian nowadays for some reason.

But, I mean, they keep giving them more time to hunt and whatever. And you get to hunt more and you get a wound to 20 animals before you kill someone. Josh, you're brutal. And it's a lot funner, you know. My line will work. You just pull out the gun and shoot it and be done with it. Not to have to drag the bull around the mountain just to say you kill it with a bull. Well, remember, mine came on strong. Remember? I mean, stuff happens. Wait, I'm going to put all this on the air. I'm getting all archery hunters now.

You will. You will.

But, you know, white men use powder. And Indians use stick and string. I don't mind an Indian coming hunting with me with a bow and arrow. But a perfectly, well, white man using a bow and arrow is just kind of off.

Josh.

Tell us how you really feel. Tell us how you really feel, Josh. So, you know, I know you probably get to hunt more lions throughout the year simply because you can do it for five or six months versus bears. But we know you've killed some giant bears both on some of your Utah units and some of the reservations. But let's maybe talk a little bit about some of the differences with lion hunting and bear hunting. When you're using your, you obviously, you know, there's differences and things like that. So, talk a little bit about that. Well, you know, as far as the dogs are concerned, in my mind, a really, really good dog, the best dogs I've ever seen in my life will do everything. You know, hunt bear, mountain lion, lepers, whatever. It'll just do it all.

But then you get some dogs that are just better at hunting mountain lions or just better off hunting bears due to their differences in personalities and the way they act and what have you. So, you know, I keep a pack of hounds around that will only hunt lions. So, when I'm hunting lions in the summer and the bears are out, they'll just stick on lion. I don't have to worry about the bears. And then I got a pack of dogs that will only run bears. And I got dogs that run it all, too. How do you get them to do that? Or is it just the individual dog that just have a fire for cats and they kind of run right over a bear track because they're so focused on the cat that they're on and vice versa? Or is it trained? Do you have to train them? You only chase lions. Or is it, do you kind of go with. Well, we're on a bear hunt today. Yeah. How do you get.

Yeah, you know, you kind of see their personalities and what have you and the way they act when they're younger. If they're a little more crazy, you might want them to be a bear dog or really good bear dog. You want a couple of good crazy ones in your pack sometimes when you're hunting bears. Or if you're hunting lions in the dirt, you kind of want a slower, nose down type dog, you know. And you just kind of see them personalities when they're younger and you're like, hey, this dog drives me nuts hunting coers, but he's a wild, crazy man when we're hunting bears. We're just going to stick with bears on you, you know what I mean? I got you. To go with the tendencies and kind of feed them to the stuff that you think their strengths are or you see their focus or their drive is. You kind of feed that. Yeah. Yeah.

And you kind of develop for the country that you're hunting or the train that you're hunting and the type of dog that works best in it. And there's different dogs that work better in different areas or different parts of the world. Yeah. And it just kind of depends on you develop dogs for what you're doing. And everybody that hunts around the world develops those dogs for what they're hunting or doing in that type of train or with that kind of critter that they're after. So what are you, like today, like how are you cutting a bear track? I mean, are you just driving or is it something where you're out hiking the dogs and you just guys are on a walk and then you're... You know, like today I'm hunting in a sheep country where it's really rocky and steep and kind of know where these cougars are. And I know where the sheep are and they're just around them sheep.

And just you kind of develop and know where the cougars walk and where they move and how cats act and how cats think and where they go and what they like to do. And you can't see tracks in the country that I'm in right now. So you just, you take the dogs and you hike through those areas and you rely on the dogs to tell you what's going on and show you what's going on and away you go. So back to the crazy ones.

Tell us why you want that when you're hunting bears or a couple of them, not all of them. You need some that obviously have good noses, but... Sometimes you just, I mean, sometimes of the year bears don't leave much scent and sometimes they leave a lot of scent. Sometimes it's like trailing a garbage truck down the road.

Sometimes... That's after they're in a garbage dumpster or something. Yeah. And sometimes you just, in really rough country, you got a big old meat bear on the ground. You need some of them crazy dogs in there that are going in there and working him and pulling a little hair on him. I mean, just to get him stopped. Get him bait up or maybe treed or something. Yeah. So you can get in there and kill him. So they take more aggressive, a little bit more aggressive sometimes to bait him up or stop him. That's what you're talking about when you mean a couple crazy dogs to... Yeah. I mean, sometimes, you know, that's a big aspect to the bear hunting. And also sometimes those crazy more driven dogs too are what gets you through the rocks and the cliffs and nasty country when you're called trailing a lion too, you know? Yeah. So it's just kind of a combination of everything. Yeah.

And just a development for where and what you're doing. Tell us... Let's talk about leopards. Like, I've always... I mean, I've got a thing for them. At some point, I've got to quit mule deer and go do some of that. But tell us about it. Is it just a lion on steroids? I mean, what is it? What's it like? Well, I don't know. I'll just start in the beginning.

Nine years ago, I had the opportunity to take my dogs to Africa and hunt leopards with a guy that was my age. And, you know, back then we were, I don't know, 24 years old. I was, you know, and he was about 30. Yeah. So I just... It was something I'd read about and something I'd seen about and always wanted to see them spotted cats, you know? So I had a couple hunters that talked me into it, wanting to kill them big leopards down there in Namibia. That's where we started out. And they knew this friend of mine and their family owned a couple of big cattle ranches down there, plump full of big leopards on the Kalahari Desert. So I just loaded up six dogs and flew them over there. My parents said not to do it, and I was stupid and idiotic and what have you. Because you were never going to see your dogs again, basically? Yeah, but I trusted the people that were setting me up with it.

They hunted with me before and ended up being some of the most wonderful experiences and meeting some of the most wonderful people I ever met with in my whole life. I mean, I say a lot. You know, if the plane ride wasn't so far to Africa, we'd be out of business over here. Yeah. But, I mean, God spent some time over there and made a whole variety of species of different shapes and sizes and colors and what have you. And still plump full of wild country over there. Travel for miles and miles to different ranches. And people just love you to death and feed you five times a day, whether you want to eat or not. Talk your leg off to where you can hardly even get out and go hunting. Just some of the most wonderful people I've ever seen. Wow. And so happy that you're there. And just amazing. Absolutely spectacular and amazing. So you go over there your first trip.

Tell us about your first leopard or some of the most memorable experiences you've had there. Just, you know, I found that them leopards were no different than a mountain lion. Tracks were the same. They moved like a cat, just like our mountain lions. You see a size of a track, I could tell you what the weight of was the cougar. Even the sex, just the same as a cougar or a leopard. All the same. Only difference that I found is leopards would come into bait. And leopards will tackle you and bite you. You don't just walk up to the tree and shoot one like a cougar. You stay back a couple hundred yards if possible and shoot them as far away as possible. And everybody carries guns to protect each other. A little more extreme in that way. And the environment is a lot more game-rich environment full of animals that can kill you. Poisonous snakes, what have you.

It's pretty tame over here in the U.S., you know what I mean? And so a lot more. And you can just be a bloodthirsty killer over there. Go out there every day. Hunt leopards all morning. Gets hot. Go out to killing planes game all day by the truckloads, you know. And not that you're doing anything wrong. It's just a game-rich environment that the animals need thinned down. And the hunters pay for these animals. And that's where these people get their most money from. And when you provide that money for the animals to all these people, the better they take care of the animals. Instead of wanting to just kill them off, they want to take care of them and let them reproduce. So people can come in and pay money for them. Seems like you really like to hunt those baboons. Oh, I love killing baboons. Tell us. There's hunters of them. I mean, and ostriches.

Man, there ain't nothing funner than watching you take your deer rifle and blow the feathers out of a 200-pound chicken. I mean, leopards, baboons, and ostriches. You just, man, that's a rush. So to these leopards, you said they're obviously more aggressive and will jump out on you. Are they much more aggressive on your dogs as well? Yeah, it's the exact same. If you've got a pack of dogs that know they're fighting distance, the best luck I had over there is I took really, really good dogs. Dogs that could cold trail lions in the heat of the day, in the dark, and that could fight a mean bear through the rough country all day long, you know. And those dogs did the very best over there. You had to cold trail the lion or the leopard and then get to him, but then they had to bay him or fight him like a big bear on the ground with an animal that could kill him.

I mean, a big leopard over there has a 17-inch skull, where a big mountain lion has a 15-inch skull. And their canines are about twice as long as the canines on mountain lions. So they bite and they know how to kill, and they got some bite. So the dogs had to know their fighting range over there to keep them from getting killed. And the best luck I had over there was sending over finished dogs that hunted lion, like I said, the way you want a lion dog to hunt, and hunted bears as a good bear dog would. Do you still go over there every year? Yeah, I'm having my good friend I was hunting with over there, Scott Branzil. He got killed by a crocodile about a month ago. And then Tien's Boutaz hunt with him over there. He got killed about two weeks ago by an elephant. Come on. Are you kidding me? Jeez. Josh. Sorry, man. I didn't mean to. Well, they're kind of like cows.

If you can die out in the field doing what you love, then that's a good death. It's a lot better than dying in the house or an old folks home on a bed. Were they hunting with clients when that happened? Tien's was hunting with clients, hunting elephants, yes. And Scott was just out training dogs on leopards. Come on. So have you had any close calls out there, Josh? Yeah. Yeah, I've had a couple. Well, you can get a lot more close calls over there than you can here. And you always just got to be smart about things and watch around you and surround yourself with good people. Do you have a specific instance that you share with us? Oh, not too much. I don't know. You get around wrong people and they might pull machine guns on you or something if they think you're a poacher. And you just tell them you're American. They don't want to kill Americans. Yeah. Or nothing real bad.

You surround yourself with good people and you're in the right places with the right people. It's no different than around here other than just kind of watch out for a few more things like snakes and animals that can kill you. So when you're back over here hunting here, it's like cupcakes and butterflies compared to hunting over there. I mean, it's pretty light stuff. Yeah, it really is pretty tame over here. I mean, we're pretty fortunate, you know. But it's also we're running out of a lot more wild country to really hunt wild over here or hunt how you need to hunt or hunt how you want to hunt with all the government regulations. What have you we have here that limits us in certain ways. But over there you can still run wild and free and hunt how you need to hunt or hunt how you want to hunt or when you want to hunt. Well, I know everybody that goes over there can't wait to go back.

I know, you know, I've been putting it off and I think Bronson has too. We just are one of those. We're just, you know, once you go over there, you kind of give up something here because you just can't wait to get back. It seems like your dad told me the same thing. It's nothing he'd rather do than go over there. Well, yeah, I mean, there's different hunting over there if you're hunting in the high fence or if you're hunting wild. If you're hunting wild, I've never seen better hunting in my life. And, uh, and, uh, just it's pretty, pretty amazing place. What do you do with all the meat? I mean, are these communities, they gobble it right up like it's crazy? Yeah, it depends on where you're at. You can give it to the natives or the locals or there's meat co around there. A lot of the killing we done, we sold the meat to meat co.

Just depends on where you're at and where you're hunting or what's around you. But all the meat, they eat everything over there. And leopards kill cattle, been dead for three days. And natives gobble it right up. The FDA's not slowing them down over there. No, they'll eat everything. Jeez. Crazy. What about, I know we mentioned a little bit earlier, you talked about going up north. What personally, I mean, I know we associate you with, with hunting with your dogs for lion and bears. But personally for you, Josh, outside of, if you had to put third on your list or what after, what do you personally like to hunt or guide your clients to? Maybe either personally or, like I said, what other animals do you really get the most fulfillment out of hunting? Oh, I love animals and I love hunting everything. You know, as far as the Northwest Territories are concerned, another great wild place to go.

I've only hunted up there with Harold Grindy and his crew. You know, started out, you know, nine years ago just trading some hunts with them. And they come hunting with us and learn so much from Grindy family up there. They just hold a special place in my heart. They taught me so much about guiding hunters and outfitting and just such good people. And, and, and, and, and then their concession up there is so wild and beautiful. You don't see no other airplanes other than your own. And it's just so nice to be surrounded by good people and wild country and, and wild game and its natural environment without anybody else bothering you. And just seeing new species, you know, like doll sheep and caribou and moose and grizzlies and wolves. Stuff like that is always intriguing to somebody who loves to hunt. And so that place is just always will have a special place in my heart.

And I just love it up there for all those different aspects. You going back north either yourself or any of your family here this summer? Well, no, nothing. I can go up there if I make time. I haven't scheduled anything yet, but don't have anything in the works right now. What's, what's on your bucket list? What have you, what do you aspire to do that you haven't done yet? One thing is I've killed seven leopards myself and lots of others with clients, but I've never afforded to be able to pay for a leopard to come home myself. So I got to do the money to do that one of these days. And, uh, what's that require, Josh? What's it, what's it take? Oh, it just takes lots of money. You know, it just takes money. Like how much? Oh, well, that site is permitted alone. It usually runs you around 13 K, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, piece of paper.

I always love to go up there and see it, get the pictures and experiences and do all that. But bringing the animal home is lower on the list, but someday need to get me one mounted in the house would be awful nice. Yeah. Um, well, we've talked a lot about the dogs and the bears, lions, leopards, all that kind of stuff. Of course, the baboons. It's always fun to visit with you about those things. But, um, tell us, I know you, you do a lot of deer and elk hunters. Like, let's just talk about, uh, your program real quick. And, uh, I know you've killed some great bulls, some giants actually, you know, even 400 plus at times. But tell us a little bit about that, your elk and deer operation. Well, we just family homesteaded in this country back in the 1800s. We've got a big cattle ranch and at least the neighboring ranchers' ranches that I grew up with around me.

And we bring clients in to hunt the deer and elk and bear and mountain lions on our ranches. And it's nice for them not to be bothered by the general public and the competition that goes with all that. And, uh, they come up and we, you know, they might kill an elk in a day or two or a deer in a day or two. And I load them up and haul them with me to go catch a bear or mountain lion. We just hunt like crazy every day and try to keep their old eyeballs peeled wide open. Make sure they go home telling all their buddies about what just happened to them. Try to get more of them out here. You guys are, uh, the deer and elk stuff is based up there in northeast Utah. And you guys have guaranteed tags as well. Uh, you can take draw hunters, obviously, that get lucky and draw some of the limited entry units that you guide in up there. But you do have landowner tags for both deer and elk, right?

Yeah, that's what we take them. We, uh, I'll get one or two hunters that draw out every year. But most everything is just off the landowner vouchers that we get on the, on our ranch or the ranches at least around there. And, uh. You're killing like, you know, 330 to 360 plus bulls generally, or even maybe a little bit better? Yeah, the last couple of years we're killing a lot of 350 plus bulls and a few 370 plus bulls. And, uh, you know, we, oh, you know, we don't ever want to pull the trigger anything other than three, anything lower than like a 320, you know, but that's a great big five point or something. How big is that country? I mean, how many acres are we talking? Oh, I, I'm leasing, uh, what we own around, around the 60,000 mark of deeded acres. Jeez, that's a lot of country. And then what about the deer? I mean, we got to talk about them. It's got a few big bucks up there.

Well, you know, it's the type of deal you drive around and see 34 point bucks every time you go out and look for them, you know what I mean? Standing around like you're getting a big deal. No, we don't, we don't know what you mean. Oh, okay. That's a lot, Josh. I mean, you, you, you know, we, we try not to kill them unless we think they're 180 or better or five and a half year old or older. And we're killing the odd one or two, 200 inch growth type deer a year, you know? Well, tell us, uh, just, you know, as we're starting to wrap this up, just like you're hunting for a living, you're hunting 250 plus days a year. At least that's what your wife's telling us. Uh, how many lion hunters are you taking? How many bear hunters? How many deer? How many elk? How many, how many hunters your operation going through each year? Oh, around 25 cougar hunter. I've killed 24 cougars since November.

Around 60 cow hunters, around 22 bull elk hunters, around 14 buck hunters. Yeah. Yeah. Type of deer. That's awesome. A few bear hunters? A few bear hunters. A few hunters in Africa, a few hunters in Northwest Territories, mostly just word of mouth and talking with people that come in. Yeah. Well, that's awesome. Well, anything else you want to leave us with? Uh, anything we don't know about lions that a guy might find interesting or bears or leopards or anything cool? Oh, I think we did pretty good. It sure was good talking to you guys. I feel like a big shot now. You are, Josh. You are. You've always been that. You're legendary.

I appreciate you, Josh. I know we spent some time with you up there hunting. Of course, brought Under Armour out and Brian off it. What a good dude. And we had a great time with you. Something you'll never forget. That's what it's all about. Yeah. Making them memories. That's right. And I'm sure you're getting antsy. You're probably watching your GPS, watching your dogs go off chasing rabbits and squirrels and stuff and probably ready to get back after them. Yeah. That'll be good, guys. I sure appreciate you calling. You bet. Good to visit with you and have fun in the heat, trying to catch something there and save some sheep until the archery season starts. Yeah. All right, Josh. Well, thanks a lot, man. You're awesome. You're one of our close friends. Of course, you know, a fellow hunter in the outfitting industry and really appreciate

all you do for hunting and, of course, spending some time with Adam and I and the support you give Epic Outdoors. Thanks a lot, buddy. Thanks, buddy. Appreciate you guys also. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. You bet. You bet.