EP 308 (Part 2): The 306" Mule Deer Episode and an Epic State of the Union Address

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No, you just think about, I don't know, every state has a different system. And I really do like Utah's. I like the random factor of it, and I like a max point. So you feel like you're always in at something, you know. So maybe it makes it easier to spend that extra 15 points for an elk application. You've already spent X amount of money. So 15 more points gets you in on elk, and maybe, you know, it's a chance. It's a small chance, but you get one. The SKUs thing, when I was a biologist, I kind of liked that. It helped to scatter guys out. I don't think it ever helped with point creep per se. I don't know. It's hard to tell. But I know I, you know, when you start a cactus buck hunt, that's just some random weird hunt on the pond. Special interest group. Yep. Because I like little weird fuzzy deer. Little weird things. Yeah. I think it has pulled a good amount of guys.

And it got them out of the trophy pool. Like, yeah. It's like you look at the multi-season deer, not deer, but, well, deer and a couple of them. Or elk. And there's a surprising number of people put in for those, and they're going for like a one tag in a unit. It's kind of like antelope island. Like, wow. But I've done that because I've had plans in other states. I'm like, well, I'm going to go for the gold. Occasionally. But it's a skew. And you're not competing against those multi-season guys when you go for an archery tag. That's right. But that helps residents a lot more because, back to the non-resident, you make a cactus buck hunt. If they draw one non-resident tag, that didn't help point creep. A three-point guy could draw it. Or a 20-point guy randomly could have drawn it. But it does help. It does spread out residents.

And, you know, residents do, you know, even in a four-tag unit, two of them are going to the high-point guys, and they're now gone. So it does help. Spread them out. So it's good. With late muzzles and stuff. That's right. I also think about a few things, and I don't know where this is going, but just a thought that I've had. When you have significant changes, and I can think of a few changes in Utah specifically, and we talk a lot about youth. But think about the years. Think about what it's done when the minimum age to draw went from 16 to 14, from 14 to 12. That's what it did. It chapped me. Me and Bronson were dealing with that. Yeah. Well. Yes. It actually happened when I was 15. I got to hunt one year already. It was 16, and they lowered it to 14 when I was 15, and I got to go a year. Yeah.

I had to wait until I was 14, and all of a sudden, I think my little brother got to hunt when he was 12. And it was kind of like this rite of passage, like, you're going to shoot some ducks first, kid. You got to shoot some ducks first. Especially with two older brothers, you and Trevor. You're going to poach a cottontail. You might hit a hummingbird with a blow dart. I don't know. Yeah. You need to pound some ducks first before you have the right to come hunt a deer with me. That's right. I've had to wait. But you think about that, and then there was also a time in Utah where they wouldn't allow, like, 12-year-olds to apply for once in a lifetime. Yeah. It went for a couple years. It went for a couple years. They said, okay, we're going to lower it to 12.

We're going to lower it to 12, but we're then, you know, you can't do once in a lifetime until you're 14 or something to try and do that. And then all of a sudden, it's like, let's just do a baby 12. Just go for it. So, you know, flood. So, there's, I guess. And then you get an influx of people. So, it's the John principle. Well, there's just, at some point. We really need to address the age issue. There's flooding of people to where if you all of a sudden up and decide to change a significant pool of people. After 10 years of this, now. Yes. And you have deer points scattered out in all different options because there is all these skews. And then all of a sudden, you want to say, let's throw them all into one. But it could be a significant. There's real-world scenarios. And if we need to address some of this stuff, I contend we could do away with turnbacks. Just straight up.

You draw, you burn them. And get, you know what I mean? And don't let people carry their points. Well, that's the frustrating part. Here in Utah with general season, we've found that they don't kick those back. No, they won't kick the general. They won't kick those back. They don't call you on a general. Sometimes people are kicking back the others just because they don't have to scout. Yeah, well, it's a bigger hunt. And so there's room there to put some few more guys through. I mean, I know it's a significant amount of time. But if you did do a turnback or something, you could push more guys through or whatever. I don't know. There's all kinds of change and all kinds of things. And it's easier said than done to just say, this is what we're going to do. Make up your mind. Pick your species or pick your one hunt and do it and get over it.

And that rolls off the tongue for some people a little easier than the real world applications are going to be. Let's take, for instance, deer in Utah. It's a little bit confusing to some people that we've got two point systems. One for the general, which went general. How about three point systems? Well, if you count dedicated, yes, you do. So it's a little bit confusing. You can do both. Some people wish that you would just have one to simplify but move it to a whatever other state scenario. Like, say, Colorado, Wyoming, where, you know, it's like Wyoming's really not because the residents buy their generals over the counter. So it's not really the same. But make one deer point system. Well, there's some problems. There's some inherent problems. You've been buying into one system for so long.

And maybe you're applying for a general deer while you're building 26 points for elk that you haven't drawn yet. And now all of a sudden you're going to be forced to choose between deer and elk. Because as a resident, and to add on to what you're talking about, is we have to choose. But we don't have to choose on general deer. Everyone can do general deer. And then we're choosing limited entry deer. Let's call it trophy deer. Limited entry deer, limited entry elk, limited entry animal. So you get one of those, and then everybody can do the general deer. And so it's kind of pacified the elk hunters. I'm applying for Pavan elk or whatever it is, Southwest Desert. And in the meantime, I'm going to still be able to hunt deer once in a while with my family or, you know, whatever. 25, 30 years, that's the kind of way it's been. That's kind of the way it's been.

And it's when elk were on the rise, too. And we've had guys, you know, get frustrated with Wyoming sheep points and things like that, saying, well, they're looking, you know, they changed the non-resident quotas, and I've been buying in for so many long. And I want my money back for the last 40 years and all of these things. And so their point is, is you knew the rules when you applied, and it doesn't mean we can't ever have change. And I get that. My contention is, so there could be change. There could be change. My contention is, why do we need change? Like, why are we talking about this stuff today? Is it that big a problem? Well, what's the problem? Let's look at the problem and then say. Or perceived problem. Or perceived problem. It may be a perceived problem. Let's look at whatever data there is to look at the perceived problem, whether it is.

I mean, I think the problem feels like people are saying general deer tags are too hard to draw. Maybe they are. It feels like that. I think that's where it's coming from. Maybe they are, but I think it was on the heels of saying our general deer are in the toilet because of the long-term droughts. Oh, you're right. And then we didn't have adaptive tag strategies for long enough. We see a slight increase. We want to slam it with tags. People get frustrated. We have an 80% die-off up north, but yet tag, you know. Don't really follow that. The tags don't follow that percentage-wise and reflect the absence in the population. And so I think, generally speaking, then everybody gets frustrated, and then we develop it. We have a committee, which we address it every five years or whatever it is. But what are we addressing? I just want to know what we're addressing. Are we addressing?

Who cares if there's a multiple-point system? Who cares if there's a general and a dedicated and a limited entry? And if you think general tags are hard to get now, wait until you add them all together. Be careful what you wish for. Yeah, you're going to end up with a lot tougher tags. I think a lot more people choose to go general than to go limited. There's only 1,015 limited deer tags in the state. So I would contend the majority of people out there in the state of Utah, if you make them pick, they're going to do a general unit versus limited. If I have 12 to 14 points or 15 points, Bronson, and you're telling me that I have to choose, and I can't really get anything great anyway. I can't get a Henry's rifle, archery muzzle, oaks, pons, whatever it is. You're going to go hunting. I'm going to go hunting. More people.

In my mind, I'm thinking I could draw every four or five years or every three to five years, depending on weapon type, on pine valley or penguin, which you're something else. You're only giving those points away the first year you do it. And then you're in the draw every year for generals after that. And now I'm going to go hunting regularly, which you're not, because your drawing odds are going to change when you have that influx of people coming over. And again, what is the problem we're addressing? What is it? Josh, I want to know. You might have some elk hunters that say, oh, I'd rather hunt general deer than apply for my five points for elk. Yeah, so there's another inherent problem is now for residents. We're talking to residents, but hey, non-residents, listen, that's fine. You know, if I'm applying for the limited entry elk, now I've got one deer point system,

and I truly have to choose one or the other, and I don't get my general deer option as an elk applicant. Now I've got real world problems. I really like elk. Our elk, I've gone hell down here. I've only got eight points anyway for elk. I'm in no man's land. I'm going to hunt deer every year with my family, or every two to three years with my family, and I'm going to go that way. And by looking at last year's odds, I'm going to avoid oaks, henrys, ponds, whatever, and I'm going to go ahead and do general. Again, hurting the general guy. I just don't know. I think you've got to be careful. I don't know that the system's broken. And then I hear some people say, well, maybe we can do that and one other species that you just do points only for.

Well, if the whole mentality of streamlining a point system is to help point creep or help people that just want to hunt in general get tags more often, and now you're also going to add another option. Let's say you can let people do a second species, but that second species has to be points only. What are you doing? It's just like what's going on with non-residents. We already talked about what happened with non-residents with antelope and other species. They're building these points in the background, and at some point, what's that going to do? It's going to hurt the point creep in whatever category they're going to start building there. So there's not a perfect – be careful what tinkering with something really might create. But why tinker? I think we're in that time of history. Is it so broken? When we're tinkering every year. Why do we have to tinker? We're tinkering with this.

We're tinkering with that because we feel like we need to tinker because we don't like what's happening. When I go out in the hills, I don't see four points, so let's deal with the point system. I just want to address what's the problem. Well, yeah, and you've got 20-something thousand fewer general season deer tags now than we had, I don't know, five, ten years ago, whatever that number, years ago. And that is a big driving factor. Why do we even talk about any of this? Because at 97,000 or whatever that number was, it's a lot different than at 72,000 or whatever. But those problems – But those are drought and winter-related things that if we can keep doing the right thing and mother of nature cooperates, we'll start – we'll hopefully – Those problems can fix themselves. Work themselves out. Fix themselves. But if our deer are down, then we've got to take care of it. You do.

If our deer are up, tags for everyone. Multiple point systems. Who cares, right? And so anyway, I just – I want to – sometimes, and Devin made a point, and I think there's a lot of validity to it. We develop committees, and as being on a committee, you want to make things better. You're charged with making something better, making change so that people are happier, that the majority of the public is happier. I don't know that because there's a committee, that means there has to be change. It could be we flesh it out, we look at it, and we realize we're actually doing pretty good. We just need some good wet years, and we need maybe the division's recommendations to be a little more adaptive. Maybe the general public doesn't see eye to eye with the division, and so there's a butting of heads, and the division in the past has not changed the recommendation.

They're not listening or whatever, and then, yes, the board ratifies it at the end of the day. The public get ditched and franchised, lose faith, blah, blah, blah. And now we need a committee, and now we need to change everything because the division won't listen. Yeah, and you get legislators, you know, threaten to do certain things. I mean, all of those types of things come up. And that luckily tempered itself a little bit. I'm not saying they haven't done some good things here and there, but just saying – And it seems like we're talking a lot about Utah, but, I mean, there's other committees in other states. Well, this is happening – Colorado's got stuff going on. And their next five-year season structure and draw processes in general are all kind of on the table right now too. And I would be – And OTC tags are not. For elk, exactly.

And that's a – it's easy to say stuff until you see the staggering numbers of what that could mean to Colorado Parks and Wildlife's budget and what they would lose in terms of non-resident license sales being OTC for rifle and or archery. Well, I contend – Make them general. Make the hunting better. And I contend, was OTC elk ever intended to be an amazing, solitary – I have this OTC elk tag, and I don't want to see other hunters in the field. And all I see is non-resident license plates. And so we need to limit the non-resident on the OTC. Their populations are – I mean, they can want OTC. Continue with it. It's okay. It was never designed to be a premium experience. Your elk populations are not hurting. They may be in five to ten years, 15, and the wolves get strongholds. But right now, they're in most places in Colorado. That is – oh, our elk cannot handle that.

They're not doing it because the elk can't handle it. They're doing it because of the resident pressure of I want a better OTC experience. Yes, that's right. Well, go on the first or fourth. As a resident, you can draw it every one, two, three years. Whatever. Depending on the unit, maybe every year. Yeah. And so there's options for them, but there's a perception of limiting non-residents. Yeah. Well, and there's the other factors on the table, too, of like, you know – and I guess I would say I don't think any state should be – and in the case of Colorado for deer, elk, antelope – is a true preference system, 100% right now. It's nice to have a random shot like John's talking about. You should have some. I mean – And the hybrid draw was supposed to do that. And that doesn't do it for non-resident. No, it doesn't. Non-resident quotas are – You know, super – Met prior to that.

We dominate the high points, glean our 20% or whatever on the unit, meet the quota. So any hybrid tag or two is given to a resident. So if I was king – With the exception. If I was the king of any state, I would have at least one tag in anything you draw would go in the random draw. Just to have – Okay. So they're addressing that, and it may happen. You know. They're addressing it, and it may happen. And the percentages can be very – they vary in each state from 20% to 75% on what go to it. And that's not for me to be involved in Colorado. I just – I think that's good. There's change on the table for Wyoming, too. There's constant conversation on non-resident quotas and things like that. I'm not saying the change is imminent. No. You know, just saying – I'm just saying these questions are being raised across the board in all states. And Utah's on our mind at the moment.

You know, the committees are getting excited. And I just – I guess I just go back to, you know, what's the problem? Has it been drought? Has it been a harsh winter? And I see the problem is permit recommendations are offensive when they don't address the current state of affairs. Immediately. Yeah. Immediately. Especially immediate harsh drought year or two. It feels like there's not enough given to that or to a big winter. Well, they want to establish a trend of a negative population. And one year is not a trend, which is part of our arguments in some of the past with permit increases immediately when you have a good farm production in one year. But not the same amount. But we'll wait. Cuts. We'll wait three or four years and make sure our populations are down. Make sure they're really going down. But the minute they have a 70 or 80, you know, fawns per hundred doe fawn production.

Survival rate. Yeah. Our two-point crops are going to be able to. And so then it just – it raises people. Gets their hackles up. People come out of the woodwork. That's right. And then all of a sudden there needs to be change. And now we're addressing stuff that's not even – not even the issue. Not even the real problem. The problem is drought. Josh, chime in. What are we missing? The problem is drought, fawn numbers, fawn recruitment, and deer numbers. And winter loss up north. Yeah, that's right. So what are we missing, Josh? We just have – there's not enough tags for everybody. And everybody wants a tag. And people think that there has to be some significant change to get those tags back to the point that it awoken some grizzly bears that have been denned for years. Well, I like the analogy. And they used to let the old man in, but the old man's not getting in anymore.

I'm young and I want tags. Yeah, exactly. So – Hey, I've been rejuvenated. I ain't letting the old man in. Are you an old boar? No. Coming out of the dead? No. I'm 30 once. I'm 30 now. Okay. I will draw the line at shirtless selfies. Okay. I will cut you down.

I'm not – I won't be – I won't be posting – The only thing I – And having conversations with fake people. I won't be doing that. The only thing – that's just it, you know. We've increased hunters. I think I've said it on here before. I was a hunter-ed teacher for quite a while, and I purposely failed 50% of the students just for John's case, you know. Just like you did another year, son. Just because I knew we needed tags, too. But, no, there's just – I like to tease Josh, everybody. Write in. Email Josh. Josh at epicoutdoors.com. I love to tease Josh about the gameys are his people. Josh, tell your people. Yeah. I hear it all the time. So we get it from – well, he's the most recent – what do we call it? Inductee. He's the – He's the – From the division. He's the epic. And he's the only gamey. We call him the gamey. I saw the gamey, the word gamey on somebody's Instagram story.

It's so funny. Yeah. So gamey – so tell us from the gamey side, Josh. What are the problems? You just – the thing is, is you're in charge of wanting to provide opportunity and hunts for people. And so you just want to do what you can to provide as much opportunity there is. Issue tags. Yeah. And that's – Generate revenue. And that's what it is. And these committees that come up, usually – I think it's five years. I've been out as a Utah biologist for long enough. I don't – it used to be five-year deer and elk plants, statewide plants. Maybe they're longer than that. So maybe it's seven. I know we do three years. Maybe it's ten. But I don't think they're ten. I think it's more like five. They're talking about setting up three-year season structures now. Yeah. Yeah, but we've been on – we've been through eras, as I was a biologist and after, that were cranking. Deer were cranking wet.

They were doing awesome. The five years comes up time to talk about the Utah deer plan that year and update it. Now's the time for change. And nothing got changed. Yeah. Why? Because things were – everybody was happy. Things were great. Everybody was happy. Things were great at that current moment. There was no change needed. The next five years could have had four – Landed on a drought year. Terrible. Or four years of it. Four years of drought. And decreasing tags. 20,000 tags left. And now – Either you guys – Everything's on the table. Either you guys are changing or you're going to lose your jobs. That's exactly right. People are mad. That's exactly right. And so you got – we got to pump the brakes slightly and decide what is really, really broken. Or if it is anything even broken. And I think we've learned a lot about weather and things like that. But I'm not saying –

Fond recruitment. Go survival. I'm not letting anybody off the hook. I feel like we should be addressing that with tag numbers. Tags for everyone when it's good. Less tags when it's not good. It is what it is. The resource is the resource. We're learning a lot more. We're extremely lucky here in Utah with the amount of research that they're doing. That's one thing. Like the division, they've teamed up with BYU, some of the other universities and stuff. The amount of research that happens in Utah is significantly higher than anywhere else. What's frustrating, though, is they're talking about healthy buck-to-doe ratios being in the single digits. They're talking about putting hooves up in the back of a truck at two- and three- and four-year-olds. They don't even care about a healthy age structure within a population.

Because when you look at a lot of stuff scientifically, that's all you need. Biologically, yeah. That's all you need to get the dough spread. Like your cow herd. You got 100 cows. How many bulls do you think you need for your 100 cows? Don't waste time and money feeding more bulls out in your pasture than you need to cover all your cows. There is that side of it. Not very many states manage to truly to that extent. But you do hear it crop up sometimes if these seven to eight bucks per 100 bulls is good enough. Monroe was an example or whatever. Once in a while when it happens, people are angry. Oh, you see it with your real eyes in that. It's not acceptable. I don't know anybody. Everybody says, hey, that's all you need. We can give more opportunity. I saw 30 does today and I didn't see a single buck. Josh, we've talked about those times.

Like you've talked about when you were first couple years hunting with your dad. I was 14 years old. I don't know what years those were. So talk about that. It was like 94, 1994 in that range. And when I was a biologist, I went back and looked because I was curious. Because I remember I had a tag. You could go down to the hardware store and buy it at the time. And I remember doing that. And I would get mad when my dad would stop to glass deer because there was not a buck with them. And I was a 14-year-old kid that just wanted to shoot a two-point. Like I just, but the buck doe ratios were in the single digits back then. We did have a lot of deer. But it was when Utah transitioned to, all right, we can't give the OTCs. We went to a draw, 92, 3, 4, all those areas right there. Went to five regions. And after another 10 or 15 years, went unit by unit.

And so for some people that are here today saying back in the 90s, it was incredible. It wasn't always. You had peaks and valleys in the 90s. And until you start going way back to the 50s, 60s, and 70s maybe, we're dealing with up and downs that really we've seen before in these last 30 years. Well, and there's always a battle. When you're working for a state agency, there's always a battle you're fighting one way or another. There's always some sort of a battle. When I was a biologist, tag numbers were increasing going through the roof. Deer numbers were increasing going through the roof. Number of buck to doe ratios, you couldn't catch them. They were doing so good, doing well. You couldn't catch the buck to doe ratios every year. 18, 20, 19, 20. Maybe one down year, but it wasn't enough to stop the trend. And most hunters were satisfied. Everything was great.

There was plenty of deer, plenty of bucks, and a lot of good bucks. But, you know, there was a significant battle. We were hunting deer, muzzleloader, and the rut. You know what I mean? Over the counter. Yeah. I know. There was a... But we also, there was a limitation to the muzzleloaders, right? Like we didn't, meaning the technology wasn't there. And equipment and everything else. Yeah. Because there's a lot of intangibles. And you'd go to like a rack meeting and you'd have zero sportsmen show up. Like you wished sportsmen would come to rack meetings. When it's good. They tell you all to show up now, but they're praying for a small attendance. I remember truckloads of flatbed trucks rolling up I-15 coming from the Bundy insurgency up I-15 to show up in Beaver at the rack meeting. And you had 300 cowboys that are sick of deer eating their alfalfa. Yeah.

Because there's too many right now. Sick of elk eating all the grass on the hill. No sportsmen there because it was a time of milk and honey. Yes. Because the amount of deer and elk or whatever. It's all the DWR'd smash. So the thing is, like, it's just there's always a battle. And you can't take a snapshot always of where it is currently. In 2017, I thought things could, and I feel like, and I would dare say. It wasn't that long ago. Things could not be better in this state for hunters in general. We heard it. We heard it all. Everybody had a good hunt. You could almost draw a zero point, one point. Yeah, we had sportsmen's groups touting. Fixed, fixed. Utah is the Serengeti of the West. It had been fixed. It was that attitude. But a lot of it was environmental. And in seven, eight years, now we've got. A lot of it was environmental. No, I'm saying 100%.

I mean, good management and plans and all that worked. But, man, Mother Nature can make every biologist look awesome. Hunters are doing the right thing. Sportsmen are caring about the resource. And Mother Nature can also take all that away. If the biologists in Nevada, the sheep biologists in Nevada, were judged on the state of the nation address of desert sheep in Nevada, they'd all be fired. That's right. And it has nothing to do with them. It's disease and drought. Drown. And so now it's the opposite. There's not a single rancher that shows up because there's no problems. Oh, they're happy. There's no deer in the children. And who's there? But they're no same ranchers around the hills. And all those grizzlies that have been awoken. Out of the dead. The hunters that can't. The deer hunting. It's never been worse in my lifetime. It's exactly right. And this is also.

Never been worse in my lifetime. And now this is. I'll just tell you, this is why there's committees. That's right. 100%. This is why there's committees. Because it can't all be taken care of in a RAC meeting. RAC meetings already last six hours a night. And the committee's got to do something. And so now they try. Because there's a committee. They try and fix. Try to put out fires at the committee level first. To only bring some things.

Whatever. And you could extrapolate a lot of the same thing to be community. On city councils. Or whatever. County commissioner. Just because you get there. I'm not a huge fan of that either. Okay. Well, I'm just talking. Sometimes things are going good. Just keep it going good. And we're sick of everything. Don't change something. Or sometimes things aren't going good. But if you can realize. And have the perception of what those problems are. And that you're not in control. Yeah. You're not. You're not in control of the weather. You're not in control of a long-term drought. Unprecedented. Not in control of California's flood in southern Utah. Yeah. Well, we can control that. Let's cut them out. I mean, there's just some things that are going to happen. With or without. You know. We should ping their phones. And as soon as they hit the port of entry. We start. No. One mile an hour over.

Give them a ticket. Flattens all four tires on. Whatever it takes. Get them to where they're like, I had a terrible experience. I'm going to Colorado.

I'm going to drive around Utah to get to Colorado. All of a sudden, their cell phone doesn't work. We can cut service for those people. Just based on your aerial code. Could you imagine a Californian with no cell service? In 10 minutes, they're done. And we like some. In 10 minutes, they're headed to the motel to get Wi-Fi. We like our California hunters. We do. And we hear from them all. And when they call here, what do they usually say? I'm sorry. I'm from that Republic of California. I'm sorry. But I am a hunter. I'm sorry. And I live in the north half. That's right. That's right. I'm from California. Don't hold it against me. That's right. We have some really good friends, even around San Diego. So it's all in jest. We feel bad for you. And it's a gorgeous state. I want to go vacation there. Jenna loves it. We love it. The kids love it. I'm a Lakers and Dodgers fan.

I'm not a fan that I can't carry a pistol across state lines and go to their state. Can't bring your mountain line back. Can't. Yeah. Even a dead one. Are you a duper? From Wyoming. It's dead. It's not going to hurt you. From Wyoming. Frozen in a ball. Whatever. Whatever. Deal with your bears in town. Whatever. Whatever. Deal with all that. The thing is, everybody's just so wound up with everything in life. We're sick of gas prices. We're sick of interest rates. We're sick of everything. Angry. We're so sick of our lives. I don't know. Biden says it's never been better. And he's worried that the opposite side is going to change everything for the worse. And we all, everybody wants change. Everybody wants change. And it's just. Sometimes you just got to plow through. Sometimes you got to get through these tough times.

And you got to let Mother Nature, really, she is the, she's in charge, especially with deer. Elk, you remove lead poisoning in the form of 180 grain Nosler acubons, they live. Yeah. Absence of grizzlies and wolves, they live. That's how they die in Utah is lead poisoning. Okay. I've heard it. And I've heard it. Deer is a totally different story. Everything's. Well, they're a big rabbit. We tease sheep. They're looking for a place to die. Deer are right behind. They are. They're a big rabbit. Everything wants to eat them. You put a deer on its side. Stray dogs. Coyotes. It'll lay there and die. On a what? A deer lays on its side. It'll die. That's right. I'm not kidding. I don't have many times. We make fun of sheep and they are fragile. More fragile than deer. Deer are right behind them. You lay one on its side. It will lay there until it gets eaten by a coyote. I'm not even kidding.

I remember we'd go do these captures and stuff. You'd sit there. You'd obviously lay them on their side undoing the hobbles. I don't know how many times. Is it the guts? They would lay there. Are you talking about the guts and the chambers? What are you talking about? They're weak. Oh. They just be. Oh, this feels good. This feels good. This feels good. They have no will to live. They would lay there. You undo the hobbles. They'd sit there and they're just like one eye on you because you're standing right there and they're just looking at you like, okay, do I make a dash for it yet or do I just pretend I'm dead? Just do it. Just do it. Because if it's not you, it's a coyote. All you'd have to do is reach up, roll it up onto its brisket, and it'd take off. It has life again. But on its side, it's like, just do it. It's like a turtle on its back. Yes. They have no will to live.

No. So, sometimes we've got to realize some of these things. There's truth to some of this joking and slight-mindedness we're doing in certain things in life. And in this case, the hunting world and trends are just that. Sometimes they are trends. They're downward, but maybe there's hope. We all know in the West, the last couple years have been completely different in terms of moisture. It's a little bit too much in places up north, Wyoming, Idaho, northern Utah. But this year, but from a precipitation standpoint, phenomenal. Lakes and reservoirs, forage conditions of the deer that actually lived in those places, can't be better. All right? Less competition. But it's going to take a while for them to come back. You get into the southwestern states, completely different story. We can actually grow forage, maybe grow some fawns. You strung two or three, four years together.

That's what we're talking about. We get into those trends now. We're like, yeah. And then watch. One little tweak will be made, something here and that, and Mother Nature will do good for four years. And they'll say, see, I told you, that's what we should have done. We should have went to four-pointer better 40 years ago. Yeah. And that's what's happening now. There's a lot of change. And it's a weather pattern that changed it. That's right. It's not the four-pointer better. It's not the single-strand bow. It's not the straight-walled cartridge. You know what I'm saying? Not putting smooth barb on every western rangeland fence on the bottom on the smooth wire to keep fawns alive better. It's not that. And I'm just saying, if we should, if our populations are struggling like they are in certain areas, Pine Valley, we should protect every doe we can. Yes.

Not let a single rancher kill a single animal without a citation. End of story. I do not care. I do not care. And this Highway 56 should be fenced. There should be. There's dead deer all the time on it. All the time. And it's in a main stretch from town here for 10 miles. Similar to 89 on the plot. It's that much of a migration or activity. It's not even that much of a migration there. It's just activity. Crossing. Yeah. You know? And so we should take care of every doe that we can. And do what we can. And I guess that's our point about tag numbers. We should do what we can and be as proactive, reactive, whatever you want to call it, as we can. And that's all you can do. But over-prescribing or over-managing is a thing, in my opinion, in wildlife management. You can try to over-manage something to death and try to fix every little thing. Quote, fix every little thing.

Some things have to just work themselves out through time and through trends. And I feel a little bit bad for the biologists dealing with this kind of stuff. Because nowadays, with social media and whatnot, everybody has a voice. And it gets pretty loud. And then they feel vulnerable. And at times, it's not necessarily their fault. At times, they haven't helped themselves out by not listening to the public. That's my opinion. But whatever. They are trying. And many of which are really good dudes. And gals. And to their defense, too. Like over the course of 10, 20 years, people come and go. Relationships come and go. Biologists come and go. There's a lot of turnover in that profession over time. And a lot of people, you sit in a normal career. A lot of people sit in that same career, maybe for 20, 30 years in the same spot. But there don't. There's advancements. People move.

You're always moving. Different perspective. Different way of doing things. Different tolerances from, like Josh said, landowners. Or certain government, county commissioners. Or local governments. Special interest groups. Or just sportsmen in general. That stuff comes out. I mean, the Friends of the Poncagant was born when I was a biologist there because of some severe drought periods. It was born then. That was when the tags were slashed in half. And they've pretty much stayed that same point since, you know, that 2003, 2004 era. And, you know, it's been, what's that been? 20 years. You know what I mean? It's crazy. And then it's kind of faded a little bit of time because I think that maybe we realized, all right, overdoing it. I mean, slightly, if you want a certain result. And in that case, it's a premium limit entry unit. But I'm just saying, there's a season for certain things.

There's other times that, yeah, you don't need to fix, try to fix every little thing in the toolbox. And over, I mean, I do think in Utah, there is a tendency to try to overdo everything. Whether it be, you know, the SKUs are good to an extent. But, and they can distribute hunters. People want to get rid of lifetime license holders. There's not that many of them. They don't give them out anymore like other states do, necessarily. But other states aren't given a deer tag. I get it. They haven't for 30 years. But not only that, people are dying left and right. It's going to run its course. And quite frankly, I'm a lifetime license holder. When was the last general deer I killed? Me too. I'll bet it's been. 2010. Okay. Mine might have been. What's that? How many? Is that 14 years? How many lifetime license holders are even? Oh, probably three. I mean, there's only, there's like four.

But talk about this. You know what King John would do? Because I'm not a lifetime license holder. Cut his channel. Yeah. Cut his channel. So, but, no, I do want to hear actually what you have to say. There's hard data on this. So there's how many there are. I've also, how many times do you think I've been dedicated hunter? Yeah. I buy my hours, okay? I'm funding the state left and right. I haven't killed a deer. I don't know how long. Yeah. I don't, I know the last Jerry Kill was 2010. It was Brutus prior to that, 29, 2009. Nine and 10, we're good. Nine and 10. And forevermore, because of nine and 10, I will forevermore fund this state and probably not take another animal. And I'm just saying, I think there's a lot of that going on with lifetime license holders. I don't think that's a problem. Well, most of them all we are. Because other people aren't lifetime license holders.

They want it to be fair and they think that that's a problem and there's no problem. What are we talking about? And they've even done, you know, data analysis. I've heard it seem like that. I mean, there's a couple units maybe that seem to get a higher percentage, but I'd like to see it. I mean, there's, let's call it three or 3,500 of them that are actively alive and participating units year to year. It might be less than that. And then C, all right, where are they taking them? A lot of people I would contend. And Lindy's run the report and we heard it. I just don't have the numbers on the top of our head either. But I mean, I guess, yeah. If I'm a biologist, okay, I better really like the West because I could go to Ohio, okay, and I'm telling people they need to shoot six does per buck or whatever, right? We're issuing tags like it's our job. Yeah, exactly. You know what I'm saying?

And so we have EHD or we have whatever and that's out of our control. So we're sorry. Things aren't good, but I mean, what could we do? You know what I mean? And there's just tags for everyone. And so what do biologists do back there? I want to know, Josh. What do the game is due? Probably habitat on private. I mean, what are we doing? Well, or stay. Shorten seasons or I don't know. Wait until the next year and all the day are back. Shorten seasons. When was it? Two years. I mean, look at the seasons in Iowa and Kansas. When was there ever change on seasons? I mean, I'd just like to know a few things. I mean, I would say the grass is way greener back there. Well, it's way greener. That goes back to the fragility of freaking mule deer. I mean, it just does. That's the simple fact. And cheap or anything else. I was on committees, western mule deer working groups.

When I was a biologist, Josh might have been on one here. They're still doing them and they should do because things change. Population is changing. But at times you can evaluate and say, we're doing the best we can. Well, yeah, that's right. And overall, you identify, I mean, as technology changes, you know, like Josh alluded, whether it be collars or GPS collars, migration studies, fawn survival, doe fawn survival is off the charts now compared to what you're learning a lot of good information from that. And not just why fawns are dying, but what's killing them. A lot of prescriptive things that you can actually make real world decisions with. But anyway, how long are we going to do a podcast? We're done. We're done. I'm sick of it. I actually want to go back to talking about Colorado and giving people options. Really? I want to go back to my desk. No. What time is it? It is 11.53.

Can we talk until 5 o'clock today on a Friday? Can we just talk until 5? We can talk. I've got some things. We should do a members only podcast and say how we really feel. Yeah. If you guys only knew how far the bit was back in my jaws right now and I was being pulled back. I've lost molars. You know?

I've got to have my teeth floated here just before I can talk. Let's talk about something else. Let's talk about QU. Logan, you're up, bud. You haven't said a word because we haven't allowed it. He's scared because he's one of those 22 or 23-year-olds that John's demographic. Under third? His own boss doesn't want him to hunt. How do you feel, John? How do you feel, Logan? Logan agreed with me. He's got the crosshairs pointed on me. I agreed with him. So much that he said he was going to do points only. We said, Logan, you're an idiot. You don't do points only. Don't listen to John. Get your name on the hat.

For a crime. Logan, do not let this guy browbeat you. I won't. You apply. Apply. And don't let the old man in, Logan. From now on, the random draw. Because the old men get cantankerous. All right. Go ahead, Logan. Take it away. Wanted to give a shout-out to QU. We were talking about a couple of podcasts ago when they were doing Wyatt's Archery, Henry Mallin's Hunt, how they wish they had just a hood to throw up over their ears and keep the sun from beating down on them. QU just released a new Gila Pro LS hoodie that solves that problem. Gila Pro. It's awesome. Lightweight hoodie that keeps the sun off your ears. Gila. Keep you from getting sober. Gila.

I knew that was going to trigger something. I like the word Gila. Keep going, Logan. Keep going. Head over to QU.com and check out that new Gila Pro LS hoodie. All right. Gila Pro. QU.com. We appreciate those guys. Awesome people there. Friends of ours, actually. And we appreciate their partnership. Also want to throw a shout-out. John, take it away with St. James. Yeah, let's St. James. If you're looking for sporting properties. So Blaine has decided to specialize, not just real estate, but real estate that's got potential for wildlife. Hunting, fishing, recreation. Hunting, fishing, recreation, right. And so we'd like to highlight just the Lost Creek Ranch, and we're in Summit County, Utah. So going back to – Is that where you're from, bro? Is that Morgan County? No, I'm from Morgan County. But if I go back to my roots – Oh, for crap's sakes. Where are we going? Where are we going?

What's the roots of the Isles of Britain? Where are we going? The Isles of Britain? No, no, no. Go back to the top. Are we talking the roots of 1800? This is not the Lost Creek Ranch. This is the Lost Creek Ranch. Creek. Oh. Yeah, that's how you pronounce it. Gotcha. Yeah, I moved away from the hometown. Okay. Anyway. But anyway. I like it. To your point, yeah. Blaine and his crew, John. Yeah. Awesome. So if you're in the market, go on to his website, stjamesportingproperties.com. You can search whatever your budget is, wherever your state, all that, and you can see what options are available. For example, the Lost Creek Ranch is 6.25 mil.

Smaller acreage there in Summit County, Utah. But incredible prime property. Anyway, you can go see all the details. Look on there. Of course, you can click to contact. A little bit of everything has the address up there and whatnot. And so anyway, that's just an example. He's got tons of properties. He does it for a living. Most of them have trail cam photos of what's on there. He's a pretty lucky guy. By dirt. He gets to it. By dirt. Somebody said that one. Yeah, somebody did say that. Okay. All right. By dirt. But also, hey, if you're actually a family or an individual that has property to sell that's in this, give Blaine a call to help represent. They work in most western states. Have agents. Blaine's based in Colorado. But man, he's an avid hunter. He's hunted all the western states and has a crew in all the western states to be able to help navigate buying and selling.

Emphasize that sometimes. You've got property that you inherit that you're never going to run a cow on the rest of your life. Want to liquidate it? Move somewhere else? People are buying this for investment reasons. They're also buying it as a hunting property, having opportunities to hunt secluded, and then also be an investment. So in the back of their mind, they're justifying it. Josh, you haven't said a ton. Every time we ask you to talk, we just crush you and run over you. He has such good ideas. As soon as they come out of his mouth, I'd like them so I'd just jump on top of his ideas. Me too, and I want to apologize. Joshua. You're bigger than me. You're stronger than me. And by dawn, you're just a good guy. You're good. I want to hear, in the middle of this, we never said, I want you to take a stance. What should be changed? What should be changed? With what? Your opinion.

With what and where and who and how? Utah committee. What should the Utah committee look at? Yep. Deer committee? What should they change? Nothing. Really? Is that what you think? That's your real honest opinion. You're not jaded by your friends. No. Honestly.

Do you like the multiple point system for deer? Yes. Why? Yeah. Because there's a difference between limited entry and general season to begin with. Like, they don't need to be, they were never set up to be, they're not managed to be the same, anything like that. They're so different in general. I just don't see a reason how, by putting all in one point category or trying to, you're not going to help anything. I feel like a lot of reasonings for some of this stuff is just people being selfish or not fair. I could, I don't have a lifetime license and I could care less that you do. It doesn't affect me. It doesn't affect me. The number of tags are so small. It doesn't affect the tags I draw. It doesn't affect the amount of bucks out on the unit. It doesn't affect the amount of does that are on the unit. It does zero. So trying to go after you and your lifetime license.

But do you feel like you and your family have had many general hunting opportunities as well as you've had some limited draw opportunities? And I feel like there's so much in Utah. It's, it's, I've got kids, I've got young kids and they don't draw deer tags every year, but I've managed to find a way to just about get them to kill a deer every year. One way or another. My wife, a mentor, my mentor, we talk about dedicated hunter program. Like generally one of us or mentor one, something, do thing. I mean, good grief. You can take them spike hunting. You can, I mean, there's so much like, yeah. Oh, OTC spike. Yes. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's so much opportunity. Like that's one of the things everybody's just like, every kid needs to kill a deer. Yeah, they do. But I've taken my kids to Colorado for, oh yeah. Not much, you know. I feel like.

Or get them an elk or get them an elk or go hunt small game or whatever. My kids are constantly, they got a bird dog. Ducks. Ducks and geese. Yeah. Constantly. And that's where I feel like my love of hunting went back to, I remember carrying a BB gun with my dad. We were hunting birds. Like, I don't know. I just, it drives me nuts. People are pretty passionate about stuff as we all are, but we just want to change everything. But honestly, I seriously don't think we need to change. So the argument of the kids don't have opportunity to hunt falls on deaf ears. I look at the opportunities I had when I was 14. I could, I could walk into the hardware store for only a year or two. Then we had to wait in line at the high school. And then all that stuff. And it went to a drop finally. So I was on the cusp of all that change. But I look at the opportunity that I had when I was 14.

I had one option. I mean, I really did. And I would go with my grandpa in hopes that he'd let me shoot his deer. But do you think he was ever going to? Heck no. Like, you know. I thought we about had him on something. Get a gamey. I just look at all the opportunities that we have in this state. And I like the fact that I can be like, well, I can apply my kid for this. And hopefully in X amount of years, they'll get an extra shot. It's an extra shot at a deer tag and an elk tag or whatever we have to choose. I just, I don't know. I just see so much and so many people wanting to cut the head off of every single snake that comes by. But there's always going to be another snake. I don't like snakes. And they think that that's going to fix it. You lost me a snake. And there's always going to be snakes. Just, I don't know.

I just, I really don't know what to say other than we've been in the drought. Look at the entire west. The entire west. Oh, look at Nevada. Is there any state that's amazing for a mule deer right now? Nevada's had 90% tag cuts in some units. 90. 80% cut. Cut. From like 300 and something tags to 30. It's not fun for them to do that. Terrible. On a state that's that small and also. What did we figure the math was last year? 12 or 14,000 deer tags? 14,000. In the whole state. Not counting. We're down to like 70,000. 68,000. We think we got it bad. I mean, you know, we're not even scratching the surface. But you could say, well, you could argue the population and 14,000 other variables. Well, I don't know. You start adding bases. I like. How many. But Josh is taking a stand. I like. How many. How many states are trying. Are changing things right now? I mean, they're looking.

Or on the heels of change. How much has it helped? I look at so much stuff that has changed in all these other states. Residents. Not really. You got to kick the resident. I just look at all of these changes. A lot of it's social change. Exactly. It is. And that's what I mean. It's more social, cantankerous, social. Yes. There's so much change. Nobody's drawing tags any faster. Deer herds aren't growing. That's what I contend. If you merge a point system, it's not going to happen. It might have the worst. That's what I say. And you might have a theory. Honestly, I used to think that. Back 10 years ago, I was like, man, everything's a draw. Like, what's the difference? This and that. But the odds were different back then. I was going to say. Because it could have been. At that point, it may have made a difference. It may have made sense. We're so deep now. It's like, yeah, we're so deep.

And at least people can look forward to a three to five year tag. Yes. You know? If you combine them, you're not going to see that. You're not going to see it. I could go. My kid could go draw. Any kid could draw any dedicated hunter tag in the entire state right now. Yeah, you're going to have to take your job and do some work. And it'll tie zero point dedicated. And we could talk about that. Like, I mean, honestly, the dedicated hunter program has done a lot of good over the years. A lot of project. A lot of money. I know from being on the inside, Pollock, you too, that that program brings a lot of money into the state in terms of matching funds. Because you get matching funds for donated hours on wildlife conservation pride. You can tap into that. So there's a reason why. I don't think it's hurting that much. No. But some people think, you know, maybe breeze over that.

But target, you know, I don't know, 3,000 lifetime license holders. When dedicated hunters, you can crush 20% of a unit's quota can go to dedicated hunters. And many of these southern units down here during the drought years have to the point they cannot even draw any dedicated. And they had to change that rule. So, okay, we better draw at least one tag because we had a bunch of people apply for it. Because you have a skew that didn't have a tag. Yeah, that looks bad to all the people that you took their $10 or $15 application fee. I don't even think that system's broken. But you could contend, if you're going to address lifetimes, you have to address this. Yeah, I don't even know the total number of dedicated hunters. I'm just speaking. If you're going to pick one segment of a special interest group, I love that term.

3,000 out of 75,000 deer tags, you know, whatever that number is for dedicated hunters. And they get to hunt all seasons. Yes, they can only kill two deer in three years. But, I mean, there's another system, skews. You got youth dedicated, regular dedicated. Then the regular draw can happen. Yeah, maybe some units are getting, you know, 40% of the tags taken off the top right out of the gate by youth. I don't think the youth are meeting 20%, but I could be wrong. Maybe some units they are. They get a 20% cap too, if I'm not mistaken. And then dedicated hunters can have up to 20% on a unit. So, you could be left with 60% of original quota to go to, you know, I guess maybe even a few lifetimes on top of it. Maybe even less. Maybe 50%. I mean, yeah. But, I mean, there are some units that maybe are just. But there wasn't a problem when we had deer numbers. No. There wasn't a problem.

We're not hearing this. Nobody gave two craps about dedicated or lifetime or anything in 2017. Or trail cameras. Or bait. Or musculoskeletal muzzleloaders. Any of them. Nobody cared. I'm not saying all those are good, bad, or otherwise. I'm just saying. You're just saying. The microscope out there. Times were good. Times were good. The microscope was not out. And basically, you could have been entitled to deer 365 and nobody would have really cared. Just kill it when you want. We got deer everywhere. Oh, you hit another one on 56 with your car? Whatever. That dumb broad. That was selective. She was stupid. That's what we're glad. Her brain cells aren't being. Yeah. Dumb ones die and the smart ones that know how to dodge cars. They live and they breed. It's natural. We're going to only have the smart ones that live around 56. There's really no change. You just have to be proactive.

Just be proactive. You know, like I was saying with the science and everything that's there, you can't just all follow science. You can't just all follow the social. You have to find a balance. Be proactive. No, the science says kill them with a fork and horn. Hooves up in the back of trucks. Yep. And I contend that that was happening in the heyday just in 2017, 18, whatever. We were doing that. And I think that probably was a cause. As soon as the drought started. Yes. And tags were higher. Our management wasn't proactive enough. Over freaking. We were a little bit lagged behind. They wanted to make sure the populations were down. And we hammered it hard as well as Mother Nature was hammering it hard and everything else and weren't proactive enough. So as long as you don't need a big major change. Just manage how we're doing it. Be on your toes. And manage it. And be smart with it too.

Well, and I think just listen to the public. The public's out in the hills saying what they're seeing. And if you're just going to throw out a potential tag objective and stick with it because you want to be right.

Okay. Remember, you know, the sportsman's your customer. And so anyway, it's okay to give a little on both sides. You don't have to take this one to the end. All right. Go. Yes. How many guns do you need in your life? You need them all. What do you mean? But actually, I'm kind of feeling. I'm feeling. In fact, we were supposed to be. I can't say no to Bronson. I'll be like, you need this. I'll be like, yes, I do. You can admit that. Until there, I have another fear show up. You just admitted that. You feel guilty? Don't say that. Ever. Ever. Ever. Before Jenna hears it. Logan, write it down. Do you know? Red Rock showed up. I got that. I love it. Yeah. I got that fierce last year. That 300 rum. And I'm like, okay, I'm pretty well set. I've got. Everybody in the family has a gun. If we ever needed whatever. We all have a gun. And then I have a big gun now. I'm like, I'm set. I'm good.

I kind of need a mid gun and a small gun. And then all of a sudden, here are three guns come showing up in here. They're pretty fancy. Yeah. And they're pretty affordable, considering guns. Yeah. And so now I'm back. A little bit of a different niche. Oh, you are? I didn't even know this. You're really thinking. Well, yeah. At any second. I could walk in that room and pull one out and start running the bolt. Well, the way I look at it, they're an investment. Yeah. They're an investment. I mean, that's what I'm telling you guys. I mean, what's your life worth? Are you going to protect your life? We have some mountain reapers that showed up. I don't have a mountain reaper. You need one. Yeah. And so I'm just telling you guys, would you please, if you hear, if you just see me sneak back into the room back in there. Okay. There's laws and ordinances. If I need to sign some paperwork.

But you hear boxes opening and you hear bolts being ran. If I hear an action started ran. Devin, my favorite is when. I'm going to get my FFL logbook and I'm going to say, show me the money. Let's do a deal. Yeah. What I love is there isn't a bolt in the place that Devin hasn't run. Oh, no. When it comes in. As soon as he does it, I have to walk in his office. It's kind of like. Like I'm in a trance. I have to walk in. I want to be the first guy to run my bolt. No. I don't want a used gun. No, Devin. Devin brought you your gun the other day, but only after he had run the action on it. No, it had already been open. And he goes, I didn't open it. I said, the box is open.

I looked. The box is open. It didn't come open. I love it. I love it. Devin is our expert, though. He is. I actually want him to run my bolt all the time. I am. Oh, yeah. Guarantee I'm less picky, less whatever than Devin is about. If it passes his inspection. You'll never let it out of your family's position. That's an heirloom. Don't even get buried with that gun. Hand it down to someone that can use it. It's going to be a good one. I like it. But, yeah, that's why I ended up with that .300. I was advised by Devin that this gun should not leave this office. It's true. Other than in one of our hands. And it's true, and it is unbelievable. He told me about one of mine based on an action. And it didn't leave. It makes me want to go shoot right now. Well, it's getting warm enough. We can actually get some daylight after work. We can actually get it in if it's not so windy.

So, on the heels of your question, how many guns is enough? And do you have too many? And could you ever have too many? It's just not a question. I just want to know, when was the last gun that you wore out, broke? Never. Or whatever. I still have my original first Wazoo gun. I thought it was Wazoo. No, well, my Wazoo big game rifle. The Wazoo, when you're a man, spending real money. Yeah. I got it. I won't get rid of it. And it's 24 years old, and I can't wear it out, so I can't justify getting rid of it. And so there it is. You got boys, and now your biggest question, and a daughter, actually. I don't want to leave that, actually. Oh, geez. She's no joke. Who's that? You're going to have to do a drawing in your will and testament. Show me the money. That's the way you do it and teach them life. Oh. Hey. Okay. Show me the money. Well. You can't give them everything, Bronson. Well, some.

Just teasing. Somebody's going to get it. I give. I'm a giver, dude. I don't want them to go through it. We all did when we were young. But no. Tasting point. Can't have enough guns. I've gotten rid of a couple. I wish I didn't. Just guns that I. But there are some guns you win or something. There are guns I would not have bought with my own hard-earned money. Okay. Let's keep going. And I've got one for sale right now. This is going south. No. This is going south. I want to get into the classified section of the podcast. I mean, this gun was the perfect wolf-killing Idaho thermal amazing. Let's kill some predators. There's two reasons I bought that gun. And we built it? There's two reasons I got that gun. Two. One of them is they both start with a J. One of them is Jason's. The other one is Josh. That's the reason. I love it. I got talked into that thing so fast.

And I was in a, whatever, a flush-feeling moment. Maybe I had just drill attack. And when you roll an attack, an investment. And people are reminding you they're an investment. It's really easy to make the purchase. So I've since employed at least a minimum of a 15-minute rule on all decisions of buying sporting goods-related things or applying for any other. Okay. So we sell fierce. Give them a shout-out. They're phenomenal rifles. Everyone listening needs one. I like it. If not three. That's good enough for them. They are. Everybody's heard the 900-yard coyote story from my kids. Go to fiercearms.com. Call us if you need one. Good enough. I like it. Bronson, throw a little shout-out to Hoyt. Actually, freaking awesome bows. We've talked about it I don't know how many times. Oh, yeah. Well, they're awesome. They got the RX-8 now.

Anyway, if you want to become a better bow hunter, better shooter, your equipment largely is going to depend on that. I'm one of those guys. I mean, Jason, too. We grew up shooting bows our whole life. But the advances in the archery technology, just like rifles and anything else, has been no joke over the last several decades. And Hoyt Archery's always been at the forefront of that, trying to improve upon what they already have. They don't rest on their laurels. Great products. Great bows. I've got a couple of them. One aluminum. One carbon setup. Identical. Figure that. Just imagine that. Maybe some obscure state only allows for aluminum bows. Yeah, possibly. Kind of like our muzzleloader selection that you have at your house. When I don't care that the carbon doesn't change temperatures in my hands because I don't need that. I just want the aluminum in my hands.

Because my hands got cold. Yep. But if it's a warm day, I'm going to take my aluminum bow. I actually did take them both last year. I mean, you're going to have a cam. I love it. You're going to back over one on your side-by-side and have a bow 10 hours away. No. You're going to take two bows out of state when you hunt at all times. That's what I did. That was part of my rationale. You never have any mishaps in the field. I've never had it happen. But if it happens once, you're... I've never locked myself out of a truck. That's right. In a snowstorm. But anyway. But you have. In Colorado. Did I? Stuff happens. Yeah. You inspire it. Not me. That's joking. My point is you never know when stuff happens. That's right. But anyway. They have a backup bow. Great to have a regular bow. But they're awesome. Check them out at Hoyt Archery or Hoyt.com. They've got all the new lines out there.

It's not too soon. By the time you get a bow, obviously everybody's got their own preferences in terms of stabilizers, sights, releases, rests, all that. A lot to go with it. Outfitting a new bow. But give Hoyt a consideration. If you've never done it, you're not going to regret it. I promise you. We may or may not have a few good deals on a Hoyt bow if you're lucky. We could. And then your future. I would say in the next five days. All right. So, I love it when you said it's not too soon. What's not too soon? Anyway, let's see. Too soon? No. It's never too soon. All right. Well, this has been fun. Fun times. Lots coming up. Don't forget a few deadlines. We're actually in a pretty positive mood. It was a heavier podcast, but it was actually pretty. It's not really heavy. It's just. Whatever. You know, whatever happens, happens. Opinions are opinions. Everybody's got. Everybody's got them.

Along with other things. Everybody's got opinions. You know what they say about opinions. And so, anyway, your opinion doesn't matter, Logan. When you're 35, come talk to us. Sounds good. I'll keep that in mind. All right, kids. Grow up. May everybody get tags this year. And let it rain. Agila!

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