EP 343: Q&A Part 1 and Epic Unguarded

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Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, and Logan coming at you from Southern Utah. Just us three here at the table. Logan's at the keyboard. Of course, he does good work. Thanks, Logan. You're welcome. How you doing, by the way? I'm doing good. How's your love life? It's going all right. I like it. You saw it firsthand. Yeah, so this is kind of interesting. First off, we just want to say thanks to Fierce for sponsoring this podcast. We love Fierce. Okay, all right. Let's dive into this real quick, Logan. What do you mean? You saw what firsthand? Well, Logan gave me free reign to his phone without the passcode. So I didn't get the full, you know. Without facial recognition? Yeah, but while it was open at dinner, then I got to dive into his little, I don't know if it's the dark side of Logan or the Snapchat version of Logan. I don't know, but I was responding. What was it? Mutual.

He was asking me to. Yeah, he was having no luck on mutual. Like zero luck, right? You had no game. That's not true. Don't insult the kid. So he hands it to somebody that is married, obviously snagged a good one, and is like, hey, work your magic. And so then I started typing away, and pretty soon there was some heated conversations. Yeah, I think you messaged two people specifically. Both of which replied aggressively. Yeah, that were pretty into it. That's right. And then pretty soon. The beginning of a new catfish. Yeah. Catfishing scenario. Catfishing scenario. So then I gave the mic back to Logan, and they went dead again. Did they not go dead? It took a few days, but yeah, they went dead. Well, I held on for a while. I don't know what you're doing wrong, guy. I don't know. What are you doing wrong? Jason, basically, it's like you're fishing with your kid.

You set the hook and hand the pole to your kid. Just reel it in. Just reel it in. I mean, they actually swallowed the hook. Okay? It's in the guts. Belly deep. And then somehow they got off the hook. Well, I got pretty good game, but when you come back down to Cedar and all the girls are up in Provo and Orem, I think they just fall right off. Yeah. Because these new apps are showing your locations, right? I guess. I don't know how that works. Price of gas and price of eggs, nobody wants to drive that far. No. No. It's going to be me. Nope. You're going to need to buy a vehicle that you lend them so that they can come and see you. And then, you know, if that doesn't work out, then you give the keys to that same vehicle to the next girl. You need a road. You need a roving electric vehicle. Epic company car. No, not Epic. I think it's good. Epic's not paying for this.

Although we probably, hey, well, it's never hurts for a guy to get married. The productivity's good. He's focused. I think this is a great idea. Did anybody pay me and you to get married? No, but we were different. That's on their own. This is a new age, Bronson. You don't have to consummate everything for them. This is a new age. This is, things are different now. But I'm just saying, sometimes work environments, they go and they pay people for continuing education. You know, things like this. We could pay for some dates knowing that that would help the business. What do you think, Logan? This is a great idea. I'm all in. Logan, I'm not sold. Then we've got to be a majority vote. The one thing you'd have to do, Logan, is you'd have to offer them, like when you buy dinner or lunch, you would be like, if you get the special, the drink's included.

If you don't get the special, the drink's on your own. You know what I mean? Water. Water. Because Epic's only going to have so much of a budget for food. Oh, you want me to value this. Well, you get to choose how you spend it. Okay. But, I mean, it might be ice cream or it might be you get the special. So let's just do a cool $500 a month and we'll go from there. Oh, jeez. Okay, bring your receipts first and then we'll reimburse you. Okay. With her signature. I'm out. I don't know. All right. So anyway. Since Jason's a family friend, everything he's saying right now is friend to friend. Family to family, friend to family, friend. I'm all about helping families. Okay. Become families. Go do it. Future families become families now. That's right. But I've got my own families and other stuff to do. But me and my family, we're busy. But anyway, pretty funny stuff.

But anyway, keep going, Logan. We're rooting for you. We're hoping for the best. Logan. When you do get. Don't put any pressure on you. I mean, just live your best life. All right. Okay. Do good things. Live your best life. Stuff will happen. People that say you do you. Like I'm going to do me. You know, like I feel like that's licensed to do whatever they want. And kind of like we don't have consequence. We get to do what we want for a week and don't have consequences. What's that little thing that goes on in Mexico? That little we get to do whatever we want for a week and not call it a sin. What is that? What? What happens in Mexico stays in Mexico? No, it's not that. No, Google it, Logan. There's some kind of, you know, I want to call it a cinco or something, but it's not. That's cinco to my eyes. I know, but it's not that. But anyway, there's a party in Mexico. And anyway. Wow.

This is info I don't know, Jason. I'd like to know where you learned that. Okay. Let's move on. We're going straight into. I bet John would like to know where you learned about that. No, I mean, trust me. I've hunted in Mexico multiple times and that's what these guys talk about. This is an exciting time for them. All right. So here we go. Let's, um. Brownson, where are we, where are we going? Are we going to be unguarded? Speaking of Mexico. Are we going to be unguarded for 60 minutes? You brought it up. So let's talk about Mexico. Jeez. Mexico and mule. Unguarded. So, so let's, let's, this is not. We can have that segment at any time of the show. Could be the first, middle, or the end. Because we own it. But let's also say this, let's do a little professional disclaimer. This does not represent the opinions of all people within the company of Epic Outdoors. Really?

Or Epic Outdoors itself. This is based on a Jason and Adam's opinions only. You want to get John in here and then we don't have to say that. This is based off a Jason and Adam's opinions only. Well, that's. Okay. Unguarded starts now. I don't think we have to say that. That's, that's what it is every day. Well, all right. Where are we going to start? I guess we'll just say it. What is up with the rampant nature of high fence hunting down there, but the acceptance of it, both by people going down, more and more people going down shooting them and others also, good job. He's awesome. I love him and all that. Are people, are we just over the fact that that is not what it was looked at? You were taught about 10 years ago, five years ago? Well, when we were young. When we were young. About two years ago. When we were young. Let's just call it 15 years ago. You didn't say the word high fence.

Like you never acknowledged a high fenced animal. You knew it happened, but it wasn't something. And it wasn't something that was some, it was really even acceptable to Western Begain. And I think part of that is. And what did the word estate hunting? Right. Why was that born? I don't know. Is it less offensive than high fence? Well. Probably. It's maybe a more of a professional term and maybe a possible acceptable outlook. You know. One, one, one word. High fence is two words. Estate, one word. And what? And a state. Sounds prestigious. It does. You can hand it down. It's an asset. It's a property. And then I think also there's, you got SCI. Why is SCI there? You know. I mean, it's all encompassing worldwide on top of the fact that it's okay if it's high fence and all that. And there's a record book for that and for people that are into that.

Having said all of that, it is more, it was like hunters band together. We all have differing opinions on what hunting should look like. And so we shouldn't have fighting in and amongst ourselves. And so then I think we all, I don't know, I want to call it accepting. We just kind of ignored it and just said, you know, we don't necessarily agree with it as Western big game hunters. You do you. You do you. Or whatever the saying is in Mexico, right? You do you. Yeah. Whatever. Logan, we've got to Google that at some point. But anyway. Well, but the other thing that I, and I think. But it's becoming more and more offensive. Because of the, well, the difficulty for the lower 48, the normal Western states to kill big mule deer, the difficulty, it's never been harder. And so when you can breed them in pens and Petri dishes and straws and AI and all that,

and that's a different AI than artificial intelligence. Artificial insemination. That's right. When you can breed them like cattle and get, you know, and do that and raise them and in four years, start whacking them for a great amount of money, it's caught on like wildfire. And people just seem like that's got to be the acceptable methodology down there. And it's just disheartening. It is. But I, and it's devaluing to deer. Yeah. A big deer, a big free range deer is something special. And. It might even. Yeah, it absolutely is. And it just begs questions, I guess, in my mind. Like would that, how could that mean something to you? That's my, my mind looks. Right. It's true. But I think part of it, I think part of it is.

I'm, I'll be honest. I could, I could raise deer. Why? Because it would be fun to pet a freaking giant deer and to, and to mess with the genetics a little bit and to be like, man, if I get a plus B equals C, what's this deer going to look like? Look at this giant frame, typical versus this non-typical crazy mass. And then Joey is born. Joey, the monster mule deer with these different genetics of mom and dad, Sally and Sam. And look at these eye guards that Sam had, but Sally had, like, I could totally see myself getting into that. I had, shooting one in a, in a trailer, in a pin, or even a, a 3.9 sided fence. So we show that there's a little bit of escapement. Like, that would do nothing for me. That would do, does nothing for me. I don't want to kill him. I want to pet him. I want to feed him. I want to, you know. Probably like people, probably like the people that raise racehorses.

Yeah. Things like that. That's like the combination of finally winning Kentucky Derby or Triple Crown or just having everything come together with the specimen that's. And the bloodline. Yeah. The history of the bloodlines. And, and there's more that goes into winning a Kentucky Derby than just the luck of the draw. No, I was part of that process. We, we, you know, here's all the bloodlines. Here's all the, all the horses. Here's all the colts. Here's who didn't work out. So all of those fun things, but then to, and then this, this is kind of like, but it's kind of like the guiding client relationship too, is a lot of the guides follow deer specifically from year to year to year, name them and everything. And then, you know, a guy draws, let's say the Henry's or the strip or something special. And then he ends up taking that deer home.

A piece of the guide goes with him that, that, that had earned them, followed them, helped in that. Like, like, you know what I'm saying? I get that. But I mean, that is a, that's a blood, sweat and tears. Yes. Free range. Everybody else. Mono a mono. Man against man. Or guide against guide. Or person against person. Down there, it ain't that. It's, they ain't getting away. Yeah. They don't get away. They know what you're going to kill. And, and it's also, then what I think's been happening is even, even. The lack of the resource. Low fence, like you said. The lack of the resource. Is what's pushing this down there. It is. And then you, and then you run, even people down there that are low fence. Then you have all the, to, to compete with everybody that you just see that, you know, that's the high fence, you know, you know, glamour shots everywhere. You can't compete with it.

So then you have, you know, whether it be thermaling or thermal drones or flying or selling deer in November, December to the highest bidder on your trail camera pictures down there before your regular booked clients get down there and hunt them. And all of those things are going on in Mexico. Just make it such a place right now that's so hard to trust anything that's going on unless you really know the person, which we know a couple of ranches like that. But even you and I have decided, I mean, you know, decided that haven't, haven't hunted it. It's just a different, a different vibe down there than it ever has been. It's getting worse. The auctioning, like, like what you say, a guy can show up and he can go from one ranch and then a hundred miles away, hit the next ranch and the next day. And he's home by the 15th of December when Jason, we all remember when we booked hunts

20 years ago, it was all trying to time the full moon, the rut, all that. It was January, January, January. What week in January? It was all January. Always January. And now, by January they're dead. But I think that goes hand in hand with what we're dealing with up here is technology, trail cameras. Yeah. We, you know, water, learning about feed, all of those things that now, now you, you know, the big deer get killed November, December. Well, because they're patterned, they're baited and they're trail cameras and they know and then they get sold on pictures. Or, or, or even if there's a ranch that's just doing it normal, they're just hunting them earlier because they know about them earlier. Yeah. Just like we, remember when we, I, I, so I guided Governor Tags in Nevada there for years before, right before the trail cameras. And I remember we hunted the rut.

Like we, if there was something we happened to have glassed up early that was big enough, then we killed them early or hunted them early. But a lot of times you waited for the rut because that's when they were vulnerable. That's when they came out of the woodwork. That's when you knew what was out on the landscape. Whereas now, you know, we know what's out on the landscape with the, the trail cams and all of, all of those other things. And so that changed the, the, the whole Governor Tag guiding. Yeah. What, what, what it looked like and what it pertained. All these guys are hunting them in August with velvet before they strip the velvet. Before they move. And become vulnerable. It's kind of our. And disappear. We generally, I mean, I usually would choose archer and muzzleloader, less effective weapons

to hunt sooner, sooner to the cutoffs of scouting or, or, or just mainly you're trying to hunt deer in their summer pattern period, whether you know about them or whether you glass them up, they're still going to be in that pattern till let's call it late September or early October or later. And so archery and muzzleloader hunts are time to kill them. But anyway, the Mexico thing's just really been at an accelerated rate, unprecedented accelerated rate. It feels like. Well, I think part of it is just, is there's money. These people have a few bucks, like there's some money out there. They're also, you've got this group of individuals like us. That are coming of age. These guys are well set in their careers. They've, they've got some money to spend and they want to put their hands on something super special. And you can't even. Pretty much. A normal tag in the States.

Even if you bypass the draw and you're, you're buying a conservation tag, let's call it a governor tag or some kind of heritage tag of some sort, which they do a lot of good things. And we're, we're fine with generally speaking, but to put your money into that, or you could go put your hands on, you could, you could kind of shortcut the system and, and go and, and go down there and, and harvest something. By every means. By every means. And put your hands on it. Bring him home. By any means. Yeah. Well. And it's also like what happens in Mexico, stays in Mexico. How it happened. The details are not, are not known. But I mean, that's true. It's a lot of people, a lot of stuff go on and participate in a lot of stuff down there. Night stuff going on and night hunting and stuff like that. So anyway, just.

And some of it up here, here, I mean, whether it be thermal, whether it be other stuff in the lower 48, most States have outlawed that bandit. But I mean, we saw it last year ourselves. But Mexico is a special place. Like I, I leased a ranch down there with Marvin James, the late Marvin James for, for multiple years. And then, and then after that, a couple of years and, and it is one of those places you could harvest. It's another opportunity to go down and harvest a, or, or have the potential at a 190 to 200 inch plus deer to 15 or 10 or whatever you get lucky and kill. And it's awesome. It, it, it, I don't know what it is about it. The place is special. But, but to watch the change, I guess, and it's what we're kind of talking about somewhat disheartening. I mean, there's, you know, darting of deer on, on low fenced areas and taken to high fence areas and all of that stuff.

And I think with testosterone, greed and money, all of those things change what, what hunting down there looks like, you know, and I, and it'll be interesting on this, the Trump stuff and, and the, you know, we see it on social media, the targeting with car cartels and things like that. Like there's a, there is an element of that to people that are hunting near the border. And it'll be interesting to see how this shakes out and does it make it safer or does it make it weird? You know, I don't know. It could be a war zone. Generally the guys we're working with, uh, the outfitters and whatnot, they're well versed in what they're doing down there. There's never been issues. Um, super good guys that know what they're doing and, and have nothing to do with what we're talking about as far as, you know, um, the estate hunting and things like that. So anyway, kind of, kind of interesting.

It's just one of those things that are now staring at us on social media day on the daily, on the daily. Yeah. Just, it just feels weird because there's been a state high fenced elk and white tail forever, you know, around the West out here for elk and then white tail in the Midwest or East. But the mule deer has been newer, been newer in the last call it 10 years. And man, it's gone to the next level. So it's more offensive, right? The white tails don't offend me. Yeah. High fenced white tails don't offend me because it's not my world. I'd never, and I'd never shoot one, but yeah, it's just not my, mule deer just feels like, geez, for everyone, you got to put your hands on the good old fashioned way. It just feels, it feels like, man, it's like you said, sacred maybe a little bit. And that's me. Well, we go back to how to get a tag and hunting within a specific parameter of season date.

And lawful ways. Yeah, five to nine day hunts or whatever. And archery muzzle rifle and the scouting that goes into it, the e-scouting or the boots on the ground or prior knowledge or talking to other members. Competition from regular other people out there that are just doing the same thing as you are. Yeah, and competition with the state management. You know what I mean? Like this deer beat the state management game. You know, they want them hooves up at two to three years old or whenever. If they're hooves up in the back of the truck, that's a win versus in their minds being dead and decimated over a winter loss or over predation or whatever. And so, and to me, it's okay to lose some of those. If the mature bucks, like let's, let's try to have mature bucks on the landscape. And if we lose some to predation, well, that's expected.

If we lose some to once in a while winter kill, that's fine. But they're planning for winter kills, wanting them hooves up before the winter kill happens. And there's an angle to that. I don't necessarily agree with it, but there's an angle to that. And so when you're beating the system, when a deer makes it to six to nine years old and he's made it through the seasons and made it through the onslaught of hunters that Game and Fish has put out there to curb CWD, for example, in some places in Colorado, we've got this specimen that's special. So he made it. And now you and I are, all of our members and all of you listening, have the chance to get a tag through the draw system and to go hunt during the specified season date. And let's say you harvest that one deer that made it through the onslaught of hunters or something. How special is that? Yeah. It's a Super Bowl.

And then to shortcut the system and to show it up on social media, like this is something really special, I guess is just where that. A little bit offensive. Yeah, slightly. Right. Yeah, it is. So anyway, that's part of this new age stuff. These are the changes that we've seen. Right? We've seen a lot of changes from in the last 20, 25, 30 years. Let's face it, like I was booking hunts for Dunn's Magazine under the umbrella of my dad in 1994. You know, so let's call it. 30 years. Yeah. You're old. I'm old. And so, and you've done the same, Adam. You were in the middle of, you know, getting a master's in biology and have gone through that aggressive hunting phase and helping hunters when you were a biologist living out of Penguins, Utah. Okay? And so, the changes you watch, and Logan never saw such change. He's grown up with what we're seeing on social media currently. Right. Right? Yeah.

You don't even know. And you probably heard it from your dad. Your dad's well-versed in hunting. And of course, Beaver County is and whatnot. But, man, when these guys, I mean, let's just go back to hunting deer, archery hunting deer looked like in Beaver County. I mean, they were riding around in the back of pickup trucks and had quivers. Yeah. Upon quivers and boxes of arrows. Yep. Because there were so many deer. Yeah. You know? But these new age biologists and hunters, could they even imagine? Could you even imagine them? No. No. Mule deer's a rarity.

So, anyway. Well, Bronson. What are we going to kick off? You got a few other... I don't know. Q&As? Q&As? Or what are we going to do? That was a little, we'll call it a rant. Are you good? Are you... No, I don't know. Do you have any closing parting thoughts? Huh? No. I think I made it pretty clear what my thoughts were. Well, all right. So, Bronson, here's a question for you. The best way to locate a deer you hunted with archery equipment on the winter range? Not possible. Okay. Next question. No, come on. I mean, come on. God. You got to get out there. How about that? Now... Okay, what? Philip, I think you got... Well, I don't know. I mean, it's really hard to find a deer you hunted on the archery season. You could be talking 30 to 50 miles in some units. 60, 70 miles. Look at Wyoming. Look at some of those deer travel from the G&H summer range down to the winter range.

So, just spend a ton of time. You've got to at least know the unit where he goes to or guests. Then get lucky. A lot of times it gets lucky. Like, holy cow. That's where this deer winter is. Holy cow. And it's just sheer time. Because there's not a lot of bread crumbing that goes on. You know, unless you have, you know, which you don't. Nobody does. Like, collar data. Well, now there's some of that that's published, like these trails. Yeah. But, I mean, just because a deer summer's here. Yeah. And, yeah, 53% of the deer on this unit down through this corridor to the winter range. Well, there's still half the herd that didn't. So, I'm just saying it's tough. It is tough. To hunt a deer with a bow and to find out where he winters so that you can maybe find his sheds. Maybe that's where this guy's going. Some units, it's just strictly elevational.

Even in Utah, there's some units, they'll summer here and they'll winter two miles right below. Or a mile. You know what I mean? That is the easiest scenario. That is rare, I would say, also. Maybe not on the Wasatch Front. They go up in the basins. They come low. But if we're talking about southern Utah units, I'd say 80, 90% of them are fairly highly migratory. You know what I mean? Or mix so much. Even units that deer will leave, like Ponce deers, Zion deer will go up in winter. Clear on the Parowan Front. You know? Winter that way. Against all intuition or all logic. You'd think they'd go south to, you know, the Ponce Winter Range or the Coral Pink Sands or all that. And some deer don't. They climb up over the mountain and come to Parowan. So, there's always weird things. Just spend a ton of time and you're going to have to get lucky in a scenario like that.

There was some units up there in, like, Idaho or Wyoming where you can look at some of the collar data. And it becomes public information. And you can kind of Google that. Or there's also a great big hardbound book based off of migration routes. We've got one in Colorado to parts of Wyoming. Yeah. Or I don't know a member who published it right now. Whether it's Colorado or Wyoming. Yeah. But we've looked through it a lot. Not in the northern part of the state. And, yeah, it'll show, like, if you have a migration type tag, it would show you where to, where you could possibly be on a migration route. And it's accurate. Yeah. Like, these deer are coming on a string. They'll use specific trails. You know that off the pond. No. There's specific trails. There are. And that definitely happens. You're still going to guess. And then you're going to go down there.

You're going to have to spend a lot of time. There's really not. There's so many variables on finding a deer on the summer range and then find out where does he go to winter. Because a lot of it's individual. So, certain deer in some of these southern Utah mountains, literally, they'll winter at 10, 11,000 feet if it doesn't snow them off the mountain. They don't even move. They don't need to move. Yeah. And they don't. Yeah. And then you've got others that the first cold rain in early October, they move 40 miles. Yeah. I'm not talking snow. Just literally a cold rain in early October. You know, some of those penguins. Or just season. Or just date. Or just date. Yeah. Just date on the calendar. Start walking. Start moving. Yeah. So, it's very difficult. That's a hard thing. I know there was a specific name, Buck, that I don't want to throw it out on the podcast just necessarily.

But I knew guys that figured out that migration corridor, knew where he wintered, followed it back to the summer range, and then killed it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, figured it out. And I think you could figure that out with, like, Morty or Popeye. Back in the day, you know, they didn't know as much as we're knowing now. You know, and not a lot of public information. You're still going with educated guesses of probably the masses of deer that were colored here winter in this 20-mile, 10-mile basin or whatever. 40-mile. 40-mile area. Yeah. And then you're guessing back. And then you're just going to blitz it with as much manpower or time that you have on the summer range to try to find him there until they did. Or vice versa on the winter range to tell you to find out.

I think, too, is staying, like, some of these desert areas will have, they'll shed, summer, rut, winter, whatever, all in basically the same basic area. Yeah. And so, like, out in Nevada, it's pretty easy. Like, you find a pair of sheds. That's a different deal. Yeah. A deer can live in a five-mile square his whole life. So a lot of times, you know, we were shed hunting, you know, early in life, more so than now. Jeez, it's amazing how life changes. Because, but, you know, we're still shed hunting a lot. But when you find a pair of sheds, all of a sudden you're like, oh, I might be able to kill this deer. Yeah. You know? Like, that's, not only is it about picking up the shed. You did. You did with your first, well, did you find those? Which one? Or did you find them when you killed your first 230 buck? Oh, yeah.

Did you find them before you killed them or while you were killing him, basically, in the act of killing him? In the act. So I'm walking, I'm hiking out, yeah, my first 200, or 230 buck. Like, yeah, walking out. And I'd seen him, but anyway. And then went around, went around this entire basin, no deer tracks, knowing he's right in this specific basin. And then hiking out to a ridge to glass the other slopes of the hills I couldn't see prior. So I knew he was, if he's not over here, then I should be able to see him from over here. I pick up his shed on the way in there and I'm like, holy crap, this is him, you know? So anyway, and then shooting. And then on the way back to the truck to drive clear around to go in and retrieve him, on the way back to the truck in the dark, I find the other shed. You know what I mean? And so it's like. That's what just reminded me when you said about Nevada.

Like, you get deer in places like that. And there's places like that in Utah that just, it's just deer range. They'll have some, it'll get them going crazy, but then they'll kind of hone back in and they're in their, you know, bedroom, living quarters, so to speak. The densities are so low, you know, in those areas that there's not really competition. So they find their spot and they. What I can't get over is how many pieces to the puzzle different people have. And so one person has sheds to a specific buck. Another person knows where he summers. And then the person in the middle or both of them are trying to figure out what each other knows to put all the pieces to this deer. What does this deer do? Two beta fish staring at each other in a fishbowl. I love the beta fish. I love that. Just like, ah, who's going to give first? Who's going to show me? Ah, come over to my house.

And then if I give him a little info, is he going to give me the right info? And then. Let me show you some velvet footage I got from last August. Okay. Little does you know if the deer's down dead. You show me, I show you, you know. Just a little. So anyway, but hey, good questions. You know, I think too, time. You know, the younger you are, the more time you have. The older you are, you have less time. But maybe a little more, you know, financial means to do things. And so there's always this tradeoff. But I think kids that are out there aggressively hitting it on the winter range have a better chance than you and I. You know what I mean? But we, there's things that we have that just come with age and a little bit of wisdom. Bonus points. Yeah. Yeah. We have point layers. Case in point. No, Logie Bear actually has freaking legit points. Yeah. Your dad was good. Your dad was good.

I know. He did what we did with our kids. But you're one of those. You're reaping rewards. You're so much. You're on the verge of drawing an Arizona elk tag this year that you thought you might have a chance. Yes. A legit. Put you into the 20s. Yeah. Put you into the 20s, I think, right? Yeah. Or high teens. I don't know what you're right. No, yeah. I'm in the 20s right now. Yeah. Anyway. All right. Let's see. We have this guy that's asking us to do this voice of one of our clients. And I don't know. This has to be a plant. Yeah. But I'm just thinking. Jason has zero followers and zero posts. I know. I don't know what it is. But I'll do the voice. I'm going to ask you the next question in this voice. Just so we can suffice that. We can check it off. Just so you can scratch it off. All right. I don't know. I better be able to understand you. Adam, this question is for you.

How widespread is the Alaskan sheep population decline? Is it as bad as some people make it sound? All right. Back to normal Jason voice. I'm over that when I check that box. I would say, yeah, in our lifetime, it is as tough as it ever has been. And not just in the obvious areas like the Alaska Range, which they've closed down, you know, hunting in a lot of areas. But, I mean, the Brooks Range is tough. And part of it is because when you close an area down, now there's pressure. Whether that be non-residents going other places, obviously they can only book so many spots. But even if residents of Alaska know certain places got hammered, annihilated, it's natural. If you go out there and scout, even if you don't have a super cub, word on the street, or if you do have a cub and you're not seeing anything, you're going to go look somewhere else.

So, it's naturally that Brooks Range, Wrangles, you know, other stuff, Ta Keatonis, they're going to take the brunt of that pressure. And, yeah, I've not seen it this difficult in my lifetime, flat out. So, you know, the shortage of doll sheep openings in Alaska is also another testament to that. Very few outfitters have openings. Those that do, not always, but a lot of them have had somewhat marginal success rates in recent years as they've had their own struggles, even though their areas are open. And, you know, they don't have a quota in Alaska. It's not like, you know, the stone sheep in BC or something where the government tells you how many you can kill. And that's how many tags you can kill in a three to five year period. And they have kind of an annual, you know, this is how many we take. Not like that in Alaska. So, there's got to be a lot.

And a lot of times, I'm not putting it all in the outfitters, a lot of times they don't know until they go hunt a year after the big winter. They're like, oh, geez, yeah, this is, they took it hard. But we're dealing with a lot of maybe four to six year old rams and a couple squeakers, seven year olds flirting with being full krill. And it's hard. And then every year it's hard to get out of that because as soon as those small cohorts of rams get seven or eight in full krill, they're getting killed. Because, let's face it, these hunts are $35,000, $45,000 in Alaska now. And, you know, you don't just go home and try it again next year. I think it goes back to the same thing with the scarcity of mule deer, scarcity of sheep, the scarcity of anything and everything. Stakes get higher. People want them more. There's a more concerted effort, more emphasis.

Get one, I got to get mine before they're all gone, this perception of that. But winters come and go and things, you know, they'll bounce back. They will in time. You need a, you just need, you're going to need, you know, several years of moderate, really good lamb production. And then you got to fast forward seven to nine years after that before you start seeing them show up in what you'd call a legal ram age for Alaska. And by that time, who knows what costs are going to be like. Because, yeah, it's a little, it's just one of those realities of life. It's like houses right now, vehicles right now, price of sheep hunts right now. Everything is like so crazy higher than, higher than we, it exploded faster than anybody was prepared to accept. Not just stone sheep, but even doll sheep to some extent.

And it's outpaced the, the, the, I don't want to call it the dream, but I guess the dream of a lot of people that want to hunt sheep. It kind of surpassed, you know, what most people can bite off. My first one we booked for 7,500. Yeah, mine was 5,000. The next one was 6,000. Yes. I mean. Yes. And I know those weren't that long ago. They were in the, mine were in the 2000s. Okay, mine was 1996. But it was, but at the same time, we've also had inflation. Yeah. Things are different. It's natural. Things are different. Yeah. But, but nowhere near what they're at. The last five years. Yeah. Accelerated. Yeah. And COVID also played into that with Alaska. Alaska, as Canada was shut down for that, let's just call it two years. They did open last minute on the second year of COVID. And some people came in, but it was really too, they didn't have the number of non-residents yet.

And so during those years, whether it be doll sheep hunts, whether they be caribou moose, whatever, every hunt available in Alaska could get booked. Right. Because that's where you could go as American. You can go to, you could go to Alaska. Alaska, you couldn't get into Canada, you know, at all unless you're, you know, it was closed. And then even when it opened up, then you had the vaccine restrictions. Some people were like, I ain't going there. So Alaska just accelerated. And, and it's, and then you have the shortage of sheep on top of that. So there's still not, not been a correction. There, there won't be a correction either. A lot of people ask us some of these things that were coming down, I think goes down to what you're saying. There's just, but sheep are, it's a finite resource.

Mule there, hopefully we have them in such higher numbers collectively throughout the West that if we can string together some good years, have mild winters in the winters or the states that have hard winters and that being their limiting factor. And you have in the, call it desert Southwest states, you know, string together a bunch of years. We have good fawn crops for three, four, five years in a row. And then there's, feels like there's more plenty to go around. But I know I, yeah. And I hate to go back to Mule there, but it just feels like, it just feels like, you know, that the game and fish agencies are losing the, the, the, the people are giving up. Like the hardcore hunters are giving up the, the, the, the fight of, of, and let's just call it trophy, but it's, it's more. Just having a good, a good solid age structure. Yeah. It's just. And so you give up because you've never win.

You never win. They always win. And then they want your help when we come to fight and fighting the wolf battle, or they want your help when it's coming to fight this or that, or, or guzzler issues or, or projects or whatever the case may be. And they can't understand why, you know, oh, this is just all we've never been able to get along. We can game and fish gives up too, you know, or whatever. And it's just, it's like I told one of our local guys, like, you don't always have to be right. Like you don't always, it doesn't always have to go your way and it doesn't always have to be us against you. Like it's okay if there's a differing opinion than, than just selling the maximum amount of tags. And, and so anyway, then I think what happens is they say there's a silent majority of people that want to just go hunting. But where are those guys? Why are they so silent?

If they're so, and, and because you know why they're silent? Because they're not passionate. The passion is what creates the, the people that are willing to work, willing to put in a guzzler, willing to think outside the box, willing to hate, help a state agency, willing to, you know, work together. The silent majority is just, they're just weekend warriors are going to hunt a week out of the year and go back to their regular life. And we need those guys to hunt. We need them. We need their voice. We need to show that there's a pro, pro hunting, pro hunter, you know, aspect to it by, by the droves. There's hundreds of thousands, millions of people that are pro hunting, but the, but the heavy lifters are the people with passion. You know what I'm saying? And that passion, have you not seen it wane a little bit? Like people are like, getting browbead a little bit too much.

Maybe some of those passionate people. Maybe. Yeah. All right. So let's see how wide, let's see deer and elk archery open the same day. What do you target first? If you pattern the buck and bull both. So what do you, what do you target first? A hundred percent. The deer. I mean, it's just everything we've been saying today by accident. That question teed it up. I mean, it's been teed up. Yeah. So hard to kill a deer, even when you know where one is and living, let alone when you have to get lucky and kill one. So absolutely go after the deer. Did it say archery? Yeah. Archery. Okay. Deer, deer, deer, because later in the archery season, what happens with elk? They start screaming their guts out. You can find him again. But if you got him patterned. I know. But if you got him patterned, you want to kill that bull before he leaves the wallows. But you have both found.

I think this thing says you have both found. Which one do you pick? Yeah. Depends on the biggest, how big they're, like if I got a 400 inch six point. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm just saying. Let's just say 220 inch mule deer. I got a general deer tag with a penguins lake elk tag. They don't necessarily open the same day. I think they're kind of talking that you had a good one of both. A shooter of both. Let's just call it shooters different from everybody, whether that's 175, 190, 200 plus, 210. Yeah. A shooter of both, mule deer every time because sometimes pressure alone will make him go dark. And anyway. So is that your. So that's my final answer. Well, and is it because you. I know how much days you're going to have to put in to hopefully kill it. Sometimes they happen fast, but sometimes they don't. And with an elk, you might kill. I've killed elk in 15 minutes before.

Okay. Okay. I say that. That did happen. For all of you people. Why don't we talk about that? For all of you people that are laughing, I'm not that good about elk. This is. Well. I just. I'm just saying. Like Wyatt says they're big yellow school buses. You don't have to be. No, that's not true. That's not true. I just had to throw it out there for fun and get some of the. Collectively. Collectively. Let's just say. Let's just talk about that story real quick. Arizona unit 27 years ago. I think we already talked about it. Adam Bronson rolls in. 27 is kind of a rugged unit. Rolls into my. In my civvies. You know. You drive in eight hours or nine. Nine. Whatever. Ten. Your hush puppies. Well. The slippers. Slippers. Probably didn't have hay dudes back then. But whatever. Levi. Call them Levi's. Denim. Get out. Drop the tailgate. You know. Get my. You know. Get my bow case. You know. I had a.

I don't know. I had a camper show. Something on a truck. Dropped it. Got my bow out. You know. You got to put your quiver on. Your bow. Get all dressed in camel. Get your hunting pack. Whatever that took. Okay. Call it 20 minutes. Hiked up the trail. That I was there on. And I'd seen a good bull in the area about 10, 15 days early when I was down there. A really good bull. So I was going there in mine to try to glass up that bull that night. I like it. Walked about seven to ten minutes uphill up this trail. And it was really windy. Heard what I thought was I busted an elk. I thought I ran into a herd elk. I just heard branches breaking. And you know. When you hear that in your elk country. You figure you blew a herd elk. Yeah. Or a wild cow or something like that. But I kept hearing it over and over. And I realized. That's a. And it was really windy. So I mean you couldn't hear very well.

It was a bull raking. Just destroying a tree. And I was in a thick. Thick kind of pine. You know. You know. Combination. Ponderosa slash. You know. Cedar. Forest. And I. So I knocked up. And what do you do? You start walking as fast as you can towards. Like when you hear two bulls fighting. What are you going to do? Rush them. Rush them and try to get it to where I can't see the color of my vehicle. That's right. To where. For some reason. And. I always think. I. If I can see my vehicle. He can too. Yeah. And he doesn't need to see my vehicle. That's right. And you want to get so close that all five of your pins only take up about three inches on the elk. That's right. That's right. That's what you're trying to do. That's what you're trying to do. And that's what I. So I start. And then all of a sudden. As I'm literally fast man. Last of the Mohicans running through this forest.

It's probably within a hundred yards. So it's not like I had a long ways around. But I am. You know. I'm knocked up. And I'm. I'm going. And then I heard it stop. And so when it stops. You're like. You got to stop. You stop. You can't. You know. Now it's silent. Now there's a stalemate. Yeah. Yeah. For 30. Maybe 60 seconds. But probably only 30 to 45 seconds. It's quiet. And I'm like. Okay. He quit. Which way is he going? Is he just standing there? Has he got a headache? Do you shove a stick through his eye? What. You know. Whatever. But he was tearing this place. Place apart. So I decided to let a little cow call go. Back behind me. You know. I had a grunt to cow call. That thing. Within point. One second. Bugles. And he had actually been going the other way. And he ran me over. Basically. Ran right in. Coming straight on. Quartering toward me. Hit him right behind the shoulder.

But he's. He's coming straight at me. With a little bit of quarter. Hit him right behind the shoulder. But angled all the way through him. And actually came out. In his hind quarter. That's how far quartering he was. And ran down there. Died 100 yards from my truck. Ah. So. I love it. The color of my truck. You know. He didn't know. What was your. It was. That wasn't the orange one. Probably. What did they call that? Was it? Pan slash pewter. I don't know. Oh yeah. That was the truck. Grayish. Silver gray. Brown. Whatever. But anyway. A minute ago. It was a fun. So. But I've said that before. Like when I hunted mule deer. In Nevada. Killed the buck the first night. A couple years ago. And last year. I said the whole time. The law of average is going to catch up to me. And it sure as crap did. So I'm expecting that in Arizona this time. The law of average is you hunt.

Well you've got to say it because. That's reality. That's reality. People are kind of dissing on the unit. And it has. It isn't. It isn't what it once was. But. But. I'm excited for you to go down. When you draw a random. That's only been. I don't know. Six. Seven years ago. Yeah. So like you're just a mercy. You draw a random tag. You just go. Go. Hunt hard. Have a blast. It was a gift. Pretty awesome. We'll take it right. But I'm teasing. We take the gifts. We would take it. But. Totally teasing that. Hey. Elk take 15 minutes to kill. They don't. If it happens once. Then that's just a good story. I've killed. I've killed. What's funny is. I killed a. Big deer in Nevada. In one day. The first day. And I was like. This can. I was booking hunts for the next five years. As if. It's going to be one to five day hunts. You know. And it's like. Has not happened since. It's what it feels like.

Especially with a buck. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. And that was an archery buck in my office. But yeah. Pick your. Pick your. Pick deer. I'd pick deer. You'd pick deer too. Even though you're trying to ask me. Probably. Thought provoking. Well. I question. 406 point. Blah blah blah. You know. You're just fleshing me out here. But I do. Wyatt does do. Wyatt had an interesting. We had an interesting podcast where Wyatt. He teases about not caring about elk. Could care less. Big yellow school. But totally diminishes the value. And we know that's not true. He's in. There's not a bull killed. He doesn't know the history of. Figures out the history of it. Has connections or whatever. Like he's into it. He just got frostbit one too many times. That's all it was. In January. And so it's easy to talk about him in a warm podcast room. Where you're like. Nah. I don't want to leave this room.

I like it right here. Yeah. So much so that I. Didn't he pick Wasatch early? I mean. Come on. Come on. Not going to happen. No. Not going to happen. He went up and hunted Wasatch for moose. With his dad or something. And I don't know if you get him to go back. Although they had a great experience. I don't know. All right. Let's see. Where. I don't know. These are just kind of good questions. I think. Let's dive into the youth for a sec.

Maybe just to. Okay. Yeah. Change it up a little bit. All of our kids are no longer youth. So we've got. I guess you'd call it experience. Logan. You don't. You don't have any kids that you know about. Right? No. None that I know about. You. Logan. Come on. Don't phrase it that way. I know. Exactly right. I just like teasing a little bit. But. All right. So what age did you really take your kids hunting? Not just. And maybe we'll let Logan start this off. What age do you remember that you were. Your dad took you hunting. Not just trick rides. Or quick glassing. Or I'm going to. You know. Go out on a Sunday afternoon. In the name of. You know. Being with the kids. And having some family time. When did you actually go hunting? I mean. My earliest memories are. Setting trail cameras. Out west with my dad. So that was pretty serious. But that's. That's not what he's talking about. I remember.

Like probably. Probably two hunting seasons. I really went and walked with them. And before I could hunt. So that would make me like 10. Yeah. About when I was 10. I was walking with them. And glassing with them. And riding the four-wheeler. And doing whatever. So. Yeah. 10. 10. That's about right. Out west is different. For. You know. You folks. Like in Texas. Or the south. Your kids. They can kill stuff. Whenever they can. Six or eight. Whenever they can see through a rifle scope. Pull the trigger. So it's a little bit different out here. There's legal. I guess they don't have to have a tag. To go. But Jason. Both you and I took. At least one of your boys. And one of mine. And we went to New Mexico. And they were like nine. Nine. You know. Oh. Yeah. That was Colton's first rifle buck kill. What's that? What Logan? When did we go to Arizona? That was my first hunt.

And that was way before. That was nine. Well you had. What did we do there? I can't even. That javelina. Oh. Did you hunt javelina Jason? Yeah. Okay. So. Bump the brakes. Bump the brakes. I thought you said you never hunted. Bump the brakes. Thanks Logan. He was into it. Thanks Logan. I appreciate that. So this new 6.5 heavy gun. Who better else to chime in on the dimensions of that caliber? We went down there and then we came home. Okay. It was a quick trip. Why? It was terrible. It was just snow. It snowed on us like crazy. But yeah. I had to have been like nine then. Yeah. I didn't know that was your first trip. Hey. Logan. Me and you go back. We do. Yeah. Way back. I like it. First one where you went with the grown man out of state and all that. Right? A serious javelina hunter. You wanted to call it and say grown A man. Yeah. But anyway. Yeah.

So Colton was nine when we actually harvested. Yeah. And I'll never forget that. That was. We stayed in a little pop-up camper in the back of the truck and it was like negative five at night. It was terrible. Yeah. Yeah. Ty was the same thing. Actually he shot a coyote before the deer. And to this. His deer was a forky. It was just a buck. But he killed a coyote. That was New Mexico unit 23. Yeah. And it was when he was nine. And I think maybe one of your other kids had one that year. I don't know if Colton and Sean did. But we got. They might have been leftover tags. I don't remember. I don't know. But we saw a spiked up by two. And that was the best we saw. Well except remember driving in we actually saw some off the road. But I think the season wasn't open yet. Yeah. It wasn't open yet. A year or two. And then the kids were like. Yeah. Let's go back and shit that one.

I'm thinking it's a thick pine forest for miles. We went and looked. I think. But it was like. What are you going to do? What are you going to do? There's no deer. Yeah. Right. But anyway. That was. But I think just before that. Not much before that. You know. There's certain hunts. You can trail them along. I remember taking Ty around. You know. On the Zion. Hiking them way harder than I should. And you kind of find out every once in a while. Like. Okay. How much is your kid capable? You don't know how much he's capable of. Until you do. Do. A big death march. And I remember doing one of those with him. And he was. I've got pictures of it. He's probably what. Seven or eight. Just a big. Long. Little loop day. Guide. Or scouting for sheep. But. Yeah. Nine. So nine. Nine. I guess. And that's. I took mine. Maybe. I took mine. I remember Sean. I took a little too early.

And it's kind of one of those heart wrencher stories. You know. He. He just. We were hiking. We were out there in Southwest Desert. And I was scouting for elk. And. Anyway. There was this big knob. And we'd gone in on a. Fatcat motorcycle. Okay. No helmets. No nothing. Just doing what dads do. Right. Living our best life. And. He's in front of me. And we're just. We're going up. And I grab. You know. I've got my backpack on or something. Anyway. We start hiking the hill. And I'm just owning this hill. Like you do when you're. You know. A young dad. And. And I know in the back of my mind. Like. I'm going to wait for Sean. I'm going to wait. I'm going to wait. And all of these things. And I was just like. Anyway. We're hiking this hill. And. You know. Anyway. At some point. He calls my name. And I. And I go back to him. You know. And. And I. I'm keeping track of him. Just. Just like.

You know. A dad would. And. He looks up at me. With these great big alligator tears. And it almost. It just kind of. Puppy dog eyes. And he. No. He just says. He says. You know. Are you going to. You know. Would you. If I can't keep up. Would you leave me. Like. Would you just. Would you just leave me. And. And I was like. I would never. Leave you. I mean. I wouldn't. And I. And I guess it just kind of. Really hit home of. Don't get too far ahead of him. Even though you're keeping an eye on him. The vulnerability. The vulnerability. The vulnerability of a six or seven year old. In the. In the big wild. And that was. And that. That thought is what bothered him. Not the fact that he thought. I. You know. Yeah. I'm not keeping up on my dad. It's just. If. Well there's a hundred days. I wonder if he left me. Or if he got too. Would he. Would he just leave me. Would my dad leave me. Like.

Like. You know. Like. And my first off. Is like. How could you question my love for you. And so. There's all of these things. As a young dad. Of. You don't. Do you trust. Do you not trust me. How could you question that. And. And I would never leave you. I'd actually. Carry you. To the top. You know. And. And it just kind of. Made me realize. The vulnerability. That kids could feel. In the hills. You know. Is. I would never. Leave him. I would never leave him. You know what I'm saying. Oh yeah. And I've had. Some pretty interesting talks. In tents. Pitch black tents. Winds blowing. Noises outside when they're little. Kids. Kids mind go a million miles an hour. They're convinced. It's this. That and the other. Bears. Lions. Stuff that you're like. You know. If you weren't here. I'd be sleeping under the stars. You don't want to tell that to them. But like. You're in a tent. Just.

You have a little bit of it. Yeah. But. I remember. I remember being vulnerable. Yeah. Like. I mean. So. When we were young. Bronson. Did you. Did we have cell phones. Or any way. Of communicating. And so. You're always in the back of your mind. Okay. We have janky trucks. Remember. Carbureted trucks. Back in the day. You know. Similar to what. Logan's probably driving now. Actually. You're not. You're driving a Wazoo. Freaking F-150. But. But. It's in your mind. That dad's not going to make it back to me. He could have a heart attack. He could. The truck. You're just a kid. Kids just. Kids minds just go. Yeah. And. And my dad. We're going to raise tough kids. And so. You're going to sit here. Meet me back at this road. With no GPS. We didn't have GPS. We didn't have phones. We didn't have radios. So you're going to sit here on the road. I'm. I. Where I drop you off.

Is where I'm going to pick you up. Okay. And he wants you out there. Wherever. I was a human trail cameraman. A tree stand. Or whatever. And I'm going to pick you up. This spot on the road. And. The first hour goes by. And no dad. Right. But. It's because he's on the other side of the unit. Or whatever. Didn't really talk about all those details. No. Well you'd be here. I'm going to be an hour and 20 minutes after dark. If you'd have said that. You might. But. But you. Maybe he did. But you're like. Just a kid. Yep. I'll be there dad. Don't worry. And then I'm sitting there. And then reality sits in. And you sit there next to a tree. How quiet does it get? Do you not hear everything? This is the LaSalle Mountains where it's full of bears. And you're just a kid. So you don't know that. Well. There's been. As far as I knew. Never been a bear mauling in history. Never been a black bear.

Yeah. Mawing in history. Except for now we hear about Arizona. And now black bears are bad. But. It never happens. And so you're just like. Here I am. You know. This three foot ten. You know. A eighty two pounder. You know. And it's just a big. My flashlight batteries went down. Yeah. Bugling. Elk bugling fighting. Which is really cool. But then there's also. When it gets really quiet. You think you hear and see everything. Anyway. And so. I'll never forget too. Sean. I took him on a deer hunt in Nevada. And we got video of it. Oh I remember this one. It's so cute. It's like. He was probably. Yeah. A little older bit. Yeah. Ten or eleven. But like. He couldn't hunt. He couldn't legally hunt. He wasn't twelve. But I remember this. And Jason. I killed a deer today. Yeah. I was like. I killed a deer. Was it a good one? Well you know. It was one of those. Sean was with me.

Mercy kills for Sean. Oh yeah. And so anyway. He was like. I was like. Should I shoot him? He goes. Yeah dad. You need to shoot him. You know. A little lisp that he had. And anyway. He was. You know. He's got a cheater dad. You know. And then. Anyway. We go up to the deer. We kill him. And it was just good for him and I. And then. Walk up to the deer. And he goes. He thought. He was protected. Huh dad. Like. I mean. Just the awesomest memory ever. That's all recorded. And so. Kind of a family little thing. He didn't think we could see him. Did he dad? Yeah. He thought. He was protected. So anyway. Hunting's awesome. But I would say.

Early. Just remember. You know. As you're a young dad. And you're crushing a hill. Or something. And these kids' minds go crazy. And just take that into consideration. But I would say. Take them. Six. Eight. Ten. You know. As early as you can. But. But again. They're. I think too. Be impatient. Of. It's. You're not gonna. You might not be able to. You know. Hunt. The. The way you hunt. Yeah. By yourself. Or your buddies. Yeah. And. And don't force feed them. More than they can chew. Yeah. I would say that too. Let them. Let them. Give them little bites at a time. And. Foster it. Foster what they like. Take away what they don't like about it. Whatever that is. Until. You know. If you force it. Force it somehow. Sometimes. Kids just say. I don't want to go anymore. I've heard other people tell me that. And there was times I would say. I remember specific times when he took me a lot.

Like we were trapping. We were doing all the. Wildlife stuff. DWR stuff. And whatnot. And it was a lot. Like there was times I was like. I hope he doesn't invite me. Like I don't want to go anymore. Like. You know what I mean. But. I think there's just that period of time. I'm glad. I'm glad that.

That I didn't develop other.

Aspirations in that time. When we. When I wasn't so enthusiastic. Enthusiastic about it. You know what I mean. Like I'm glad we're. Yeah. Hunting. Yeah. Well we didn't have as much. Back then frankly. I mean. To. I call it distracting. We had athletics and sports. But I mean. Didn't have phones. Didn't have iPads. Had a TV. That you had tinfoil on the antenna up top. Just to get a. Salt Lake channels. You know what I mean. It was. You made your fun. It was a different era too. I mean. So many of my friends growing up. Of course growing up. You grew up Moab. Most of the time I grew up Monticello. So it's like small town. You walk out of your house. And you're doing. Something cool. And. But everybody's packing BB guns. And both. And all that. It was just. What you did. It was fun time. Simple time. Yeah. Simple time. Yeah. Bring those times back. You know what I mean.

Bring those times back. But. All right. Well. Let's see. Bronson. Yeah.

190 heavy. Three point. With a lot of mass. 28 wide. Three inch high guards. I mean. This guy's really prescriptive. I'm shooting that deer right now. I can tell you. Okay. Or a 60 inch. Orcs. Okay. They don't make them. No. They don't make them. The deer. That's a cool deer. 190 plus. Three point. Heavy. Wide. Whatever. 190. Yeah. They don't. They don't make. Well what about a netbook? I don't have one of them. Netbook. I don't have one of them. Geez. No. Neither do I. Anyway. So all right. We're taking the deer. How about that? That's great. Well it's easy to say. You've killed Norix. I haven't. I'm taking the deer. Absolutely. Pretty easy to say for me too. All right. So how can we as hunters stay aware of hunting issues prior to them almost being taken away? Or maybe hunting issues prior to them actually occurring. Disapparing. Yeah. I don't know if he's talking about.

I don't think he's. Just hunting issues in general prior to them actually coming to fruition. So. It feels a little hard this day. I mean if you're just on a. You know. Obviously most people are most passionate about their state that they're resident in. That's normal. That's whatever. But it just feels like just applying in that state. And you check the box that says keep me apprised of. Or whether you don't check the box. They still email you all the time about public meetings and stuff like that. And so. I don't know how. It doesn't feel like in this day and age with social media. Even if the state doesn't alert you. Because they don't want a lot of people. You know. To come protest the wolf stuff in Colorado. The hunters groups in a state like that. Were very good about spreading the word. And sportsmen rallied. So. I guess the simple answer is. Yeah. Unless you. You know.

Don't have an email. Don't have social media. You know. It's hard not to know about things when they're coming. At least proposes. Or proposals. Or hey. Five year season structure. And other changes coming to Colorado. That was so documented. They do it like a year. Year and a half in advance. Like I don't know how you. Can miss a time to input on that. Or go speak up on that. And that's just one example. Utah has the same thing. We have public meeting processes on the regional level. Then the statewide level. I know most other states. Nevada has cabs. And the wildlife. I mean. Arizona. They all have commissions and boards. And some of them of course are. You know. What we don't like. Are the ballot box initiatives. That just get. You know. Enough signatures. That they get something put on the ballot. And then you have to really react fast. By November or whatever. To rally the troops.

To not let something pass. With usually just a simple majority. But. Those ones are the hardest ones. I think moving. Moving in. In the future. We're seeing them in other states. You know. When it comes to bear and lion. Hunting with dogs. And whatever. You know. It just. Those probably aren't going away. Makes me grateful in Utah. That. You know. Whatever it was. 25. 30 years ago. We had some laws put in place at the time. That made that much more difficult. Wasn't just a simple majority. Not just a 51%. 50. Yeah. One vote over majority. Prop 5 it was called. Back in the day. Yeah. Makes me grateful. At the time it probably didn't seem as monumental as what it does today. Even Utah's demographics are changing. Just like. Like at Colorado. What's happened in that state in 20. 30 years. Unbelievable. You know. Arizona. New Mexico. You know. And so. New Mexico's seen huge changes. Yeah.

A lot of these Idaho's seen it. You know. We're just. We're just seeing. Seeing changes. Stuff. Stuff isn't staying the same. We're seeing population growth. And with population growth. And urban. Urban. Urbanization. And the places where most of the people live. You know. Frankly. That's where your big voting base comes from. And a lot of those people. Not all. But a lot of those. Are not quite as in touch. Or in tune with the. Quote. Way of life. Or the way. You know. You know. When it comes to say. Wildlife management. Whether it be game animals. Or predators. Or whatever. How it's been done forever. And what's been. Working. Or at least. Working in balance. In terms of. You know. We hunt predators. Up to a certain level. To help. Keep them at a certain level. For wildlife. And mitigate. You know. Agricultural. Livestock. Issues. And all that. Don't. Don't need you coming in here.

And putting a ballot initiative. To stop. And any. Any feasible way. To hunt mountain lions. In our state. Like they've done on the west coast. So. And. You know. So. Short answer. It feels hard. To not be aware. But I guess. The ballot ones. Are the ones. That are going to come out of nowhere. And then sometimes. You don't have enough time. Or money. Or all that. To stop. And stop it. Like the wolf thing. In Colorado. You know. Now they've been better. On the second rounds. Of some of those ballot. And it's just. Very. You know. But that first one. Came. Came hard and fast. Then it barely passed. I think too. Is we need to. As we become aware of them. But whoever's making people. Aware of them. The groups. And what not. Is make it. You know. Simple answers of how to. To help. You know. And then. Is your money being used wisely? You could go fight this fight. And you go broke overnight.

And it may. And make no difference at times. And so you're like. How is. How. Can we really help. And really make a difference. In the people's money. And time. And voice. Is used well. And used wisely. And so. Maybe. I think just a little transparency there. Do we take on this huge. Giant. Whatever. Wolf fight. Or whatever it is. Or. Is there a better way. To fight that fight. As we go along. And I think too. The cohesiveness of residents. And non-residents. So Colorado has a set of issues. Arizona has a set of issues. Utah can have a set of issues. Or California has a set of issues. And it's really easy to say. Well I don't care about California. They don't care about me. We get one non-resident elk tag. Total. Total one. In the entire state. Through the draw process. And it could be a cow tag. So does that help me. Care about California. You know. Well. In the big picture. I should.

Because those things. Could be coming our way. Where I really don't care about California. Today. You know. But I. But I should. And so. Anyway. I think the. I think there's more. To these resident. Non-resident issues. Than just. Well. You know. We're going to. You know. Ding the non-residents. We're going to keep doing OTC. In Wyoming. And we'll just keep cutting. The non-resident deer tags. In general areas. For residents. Like. What does that tell us? Just tells us. They don't want us there. You know what I mean? When in reality. Yeah. I get it. I. I like to have the whole unit. To myself too. Here in Utah. But at the same time. We need. They need the non-resident funding. They need the non-resident voice. They need the non-resident. Support. And so I think these. The. The. You know. I mean. I think there. The. What do I. What do I want to say here? The. Participation. Of. Helping.

Each other. Is deeper. Than just. We should just do this. Because we're hunters. I think it's also. The affection we would feel. For certain states. And the appreciation. That certain states. Would have. Reciprocity. Reciprocity. Yeah. A little bit. When. You know. There's certain things. In certain states. That we have a really hard time with. That it's a little bit hard to. Overcome. At times. Huh? Rally. Yeah. When. When they do ask for your help. When they've demonstrated. In other situations. They. They. They don't value that. So. And there's been some strong examples of that. But it's. That's a hard. But I guess just. What. Staying on top of it. Yeah. And. The social media. Makes it easier. Yeah. And you got organizations in the state. Even if you just got on their email list. We get. I don't know how many emails we get a day. And. 90% of them I swipe. And delete. But.

When I see a headline or something like that. From something like that. You know. You're going to have to put up with a little bit of. Over. Over. Notification. On every little thing. From either. Sportsman's groups. And or state agencies at times. But if you want to stay informed. You know. All state agencies have. Have stuff. You know. On their. You know. You know. Website. And their commission. Wildlife board type stuff. To be able to track meetings. There's only certain meetings of the year. That usually deal with. You know. Predators. And or big game. Other stuff. Time they deal with fishing. You know. Things like that. And if you. You know. Don't have to be involved in every single. Meeting at every single time. But. Yeah. It's hard not to be. Not. Not to know about something this day and age. And I guess if you. You know. Depending on the state you live in. I guess. I. You know.

There's some states. Like we feel. Like. Let's just take Nevada for an example. We feel an affection for Nevada. But we also deal with their. State agency. They're managing for 30 to 35 bucks per hundred does. They. They actually have made hard decisions that cut into revenue. And are taking care of the animal. Knowing that at some point the animal will take care of them. And. And proper management will all come around. And. You know. Hopefully droughts will end. And things like that. But. I feel like they care about what the non-resident thinks. Even though we're limited. You know. Obviously. All states have non-resident limitations. But. But I do feel like that there's more of a relationship there. More of an appreciation for non-resident funding. In a state like that. And. Yeah. And. We talked about it before in the podcast. How few of elk tags they have. Deer tags they have.

Antelope tags they have. They have. For a. A limited resource. The driest state in the nation. Very limited. And that non-resident funding is monumental. And. Feels like they. Maybe everyone in the state appreciates it a little bit more. But I mean. There's other ones. I guess since we're calling out certain things. There are other things like. The Wyoming wilderness law. On one hand. You get that. That. Most non-residents. You know. You can go up there. It's your family. You can fish. You can do anything you want. But the minute you have a big game tag. You can't cross the line into a wilderness area. And that's. For a lot of people. That's tough to deal with. I would say all non-residents can't swallow that. Even if you're going to hire somebody. Yeah. Even if you're going to hire somebody. You know it's not right. I'm forced to do it. Intuitively. And then.

So then the next battle comes down. And then the. You know. Call it. The outfit. The guide association. Are saying. Hey. We're the only people that are fighting for non-resident rights. And this and that.

The time. Because there's other laws. And there's other things that you will die fighting for. That prove that you're not. You're not pro non-resident. Yeah. But there are situations that they do fight for our quotas. Because that's. Yeah. It affects their revenue. Yeah. And that. Yeah. But you can't. You can't say we always. We're the only ones sticking up for it. Well we've had some pretty hard conversations. Frankly. Jason. You've been privy to some of those. Discussions. With outfitters in Wyoming. Yeah. That we've maybe severed some relationships with. Because of their stance on certain things like that. And that's a matter of opinion. But I mean. Well and I think if an outfitter is doing a great job. He's naturally going to have enough clients. He doesn't have to force people that want to go to the wilderness to book a hunt. I just. So I have a hard time.

I think people should be able to choose.

Yeah. Nevertheless. Nevertheless. They get to choose. And that law has been contested. And I'm not going to lead the fight on that one. Like I know. I know how it's going to end. And it's unfortunate. So there's some injustices that just are going to occur. And so. But. But anyway. I think that affects our cohesiveness as hunters. I just feel like that. Whereas Nevada. I'd do anything for Nevada. We have friends in Nevada. Yeah. There's some things. We can't kill. We cannot trap bobcats in Nevada. Okay. You know. Come on. You know. But. But. But. But okay. That's a law that's been there. I don't know. Ever since I was born. Probably. Um. But. When they talk about guzzlers. My heart goes out to them. Yeah. When they're. When. You know. If we. If we can help them in some way. We. Give them a lot of press. And a lot of time. Uh. Podcast wise. Or whatever. Like. I mean. We would. We. We.

We believe in buying their non-reformable hunting licenses. Like. We believe in. In buying a hunting license. Just to support the state. And get. And gain points. Um. Feeling like it's going to a good cause. And so we're gonna. And I bring that up. Because here's the last question. Is. How would limiting Nevada to three unit choices. Instead of five. Affect the draw odds in the state. And. And I would even take it further. Let's do one or two. But. Yeah. How would that affect the odds. And I mean. This is. Let's just talk theory. I guess. We don't. We're not going to run some kind of a. Mock draw. Algorithm. An algorithm on it. Well. If you start at the very. End of. End of one. Spectrum. You've only got. Usually like four. Sometimes five. California big horn sheep units. In the state. Right. What do 90% of non-residents do? Every one of them. They apply for them all. Yeah. Okay.

Then you move to. Say the next one. Let's say desert sheep. Is the next most restrictive. You know. Mountain goats. They have one. So I just kind of skipped those. But. Next you get to desert sheep. And let's say you have. 15 to 20 units. That you can apply. Apply for as a non-resident. That year. 90% of people. Probably apply for five. Sure. So of those 15 units. When you. Now have 90% of the people. Applying for five of those. That's. That's a third of the unit. You can apply for a third of the units. In the state. And you just end up having overlap. On top of overlap. Now. Not everybody does the same five units. I realize. Somebody. Sticks to the top. Two or three. Then goes to some better odds. But let's limit it to. The principles in place. Let's limit it to one. Just. Like you. Let's do an extreme. Extreme example. To really illustrate the odds. The change in odds.

Now you've got to really have a discussion. Jason. You. And you're. You're. You've killed a couple desert sheep in your life. Been lucky to draw Arizona tag. And Utah. Through the point system in Utah. You probably are going to be fairly restrictive on. There's been recently. Jason. Maybe you and me. We've also discussed. Is there even a tag you really want. And I know that sounds crazy. And spoiled. But we've seen Nevada. In it. Before this drought. Heyday. Where 175. 175. 180 plus rams. Were just unbelievable. We killed some big rams together. So. Some years. Like. Yeah. You. You feel like you might. Could kill a book ram. Well. You have 183 inch. Already. Nelson. I. Might not. Same subspecies. So. You. It's. You're going to probably. If you do anything. You're going to pick probably one of the top one or two units. Well. And I. And I haven't.

I'm one of those guys that didn't fill out all five choices. But I'm just saying. But. But the principle is you're going to pick one of the top one or two. And that's it. You're not going to go for the better odds units in the state. Right. The other people that need a desert sheep. That just want to kill a ram. A good. Any representative. Let's just take the McCullows. Because it's considered to be. Yeah. One of the top two or three. Non-resident. That will be available in 2025. Yeah. And so. I do 263. And then I call it a day. Right. Which I'm not going to do one or two others. But 263. And they would go to my name. And if it's full. You're done. They go to the next guy. You're done. Whereas I could have possibly have drawn my second or third or fourth. Or even fifth choice. I've drawn fifth choices multiple times for deer in Nevada. Yes.

And it's because you rank them in order of what you feel the significance. Or greatness. Or difficulty. Or whatever. And sometimes it's just a lesser weapon. It's just. Yeah. It's an archery hunt in the same unit you're putting in for muzzleload or rifle. Or a couple units. But you've just eliminated yourself from all four other units from competing with four other people. If you put one unit. Yeah. And the same thing goes for deer. All right. Now you've got to really decide. All right. I usually put archery hunts for maybe my third, fourth, and fifth choice. No. But now you've got to decide. All right. Are you an archery? Do you want to hunt archery? You want the best archery? I would. I'd probably do that. How serious are you, Bronson, about archery? Or how serious are you about muzzle? Or would you just accept your fifth choice as an early rifle?

Those are questions now you're going, what do I really want? What do you really want? But for me. Maybe your early rifle is your number one pick. Yeah. You actually do want to tag on a wet year. So I'm willing to go for the odds. And my first and only choice that's, let's just say, under a one-choice option scenario might be one of those that you were willing to accept, not the absolute gold. But in a five-choice scenario, you're putting the gold down every time. Yeah. Every time you're doing 241, 245. First choice. Muzzle first choice is what I do. I love that season. Maybe late 220s or late 130s or 231. But if there's only one choice, are you doing the late 130s? I'm not wasting my, that's a waste to me to put one of those choices down. Now you're not a valid applicant. There's one valid applicant that is not in the draw for a 130s late. Yeah.

Or a 220s late or a 240s muzzle or whatever. You're going for archery on 240s or 231 or whatever it is. It might even be in the north part of the state because it's wet this year. I don't know. You just simply people, you just look at all the other states where you have to pick one. Like Utah. Arizona, you get two. But same kind of premise. Yeah, Wyoming. All right. You're not going to draw something second choice unless it's undersubscribed. So what do you really want? Yeah. That's what you do. Idaho. Yeah. What do you really want? Colorado. What do you really want? Colorado, you can draw second choice. Yeah, you could. And same in Wyoming. But only for undersubscribed stuff. Only if it was 100%. Really, the first choice is what counts. And so let's talk about that. Yeah. Like, what's your application going to look like? Well, look at our magazine.

What are the archery and muzzleloader odds for deer in all the units in Colorado compared to the third, second, third, fourth rifle? Astronomically easier. You know, in the very best units, you can draw with almost every one of them five or less points for archery and muzzle. Almost. There's a few exceptions. I'm talking even like 44 or Gunnison. All of those. But if it was a random draw, which let's talk about 2028, there's going to be more of this, and Colorado offered three choices versus the one. Oh. I would put in, like, if I'm getting a random, I'm doing 44, and all three choices matter. Yeah. 44, fourth or 44, third. 44, fourth or third, whatever one. That would be my second. And then something. And my third might be 44, second. Or maybe, let's just say it's a 21 or a 40. Yeah. Something you definitely want to take. Or a Gunnison or whatever, right? And so all three choices matter.

Now I'm a valid applicant in three choices versus one. That's right. It's really easy to mentally. Without putting an exact decimal point to how better your odds are, it's very intuitive to see how much impact it's having. And we've kind of hinted to this, pretty aggressively hinted to this to Nevada. But let's just say they want to, you want to continue to have non-resident funding and people spending money for application fees in your state, which are, they're no joke. If you do all species, plus you do some silver states or whatever, very easy to be over $300 non-refundable. Yeah. And over $200, even if you don't do silver states. Just for the regular. If you don't do the silver states, you're at $240 easily. $155 or whatever for license and $15 to $20 per species after that. Per species. MPIWs or whatever.

And so let's just say from a resident perspective, let's not even care about the non-resident. Who cares about the non-resident? I'm a Nevada resident. I can do all five choices. I live in Reno. I am now doing the 240s because it's known to be the best in state. I'm going to do the very upper echelon, top two or three picks. And then I'm going to accept something close to home. Okay. Now, if you have only got one choice, this is the extreme example, so it's really easy for people to see it mentally. If you only have one choice, you're probably going to do something close to home. Yeah. Okay. Because your family can enjoy it. You can enjoy it. You can go sleep at home at night. You can hit it really hard. They have very liberal season dates, especially archery. So now I get to enjoy this versus traveling all the way across the state.

And probably hunt something you don't really know as well, but you've heard as good and heard as the buzz. And maybe you have some friends that have hunted. Yeah, exactly. Whatever. But you don't hunt it regularly, even the very best, just like sheep. Right. You're going to put in for the units down by Vegas because they generally is where the biggest rams in the state come from. And then you're going to jump up to those ones out, you know, east to Fallon. Or, yeah, the 180s. 205, 207, 12, 11. Whereas maybe if you only had one choice, you would hunt next to Fallon because you live in Reno and it would be a natural. Yeah. So I think there's some obvious examples of how it would help residents too. Yeah. And if you do make 240s deer as your first choice or an Ely elk or something like that, then great. You get to choose that.

And the guys that really want to hunt close to home are making that their first choice. And now they have better drawings. Better drawings. You know? And so I think, yeah, there is a finite number of hunters. The number of actual hunters applying is the same. But there's less, each hunter has, you know, less overlap and a less of a presence in five different options in the statistics. That hunter is less of a statistic by five times. He's contributing to drawing odds in five units instead of one unit. Yeah. So if non-residents had the callies, you brought up the callies. There's generally four options. So we have the callies. Are you going to do the rough stuff in the Jackson? Not everybody's going to do that. Right? A couple people will do one or two. But a lot of them are going to go to the best of the best and call it a day. Do one choice of the best of the best.

Some people are going to go to the worst and just do the worst unit, which has less quality, a less perceived quality, or, you know, a tougher hunt physically or whatever it is. And so. But the odds, if you look at the odds for the callies units, they're pretty similar across those four. Oh, they're, yeah. I mean, the word 90%, I threw out 90%. I haven't even analyzed it. I call it 80%, 90% of people just put in for all four of them. Yeah. No. Again, so these podcasts are very, they're generalities. Don't hit me with the 77.2% fact of applicants apply for all four. We have people like they'll listen to us and they take it so literal and just, and it's, and maybe even judge us to a degree. And it's like, we're just talking. And we're just talking like normal people for a minute and just spewing. So that's our opinion on Nevada, I guess.

I mean, I don't, I can't give you a statistic, but it makes, and all those scenarios we just threw out, it's very logical to see how, you know, swinging for the fence occurs in one, two, three, four choices. And then you got other people willing to put down what they're willing to accept for say a fourth and fifth. You're just going to have less competition for, for the tags you really want. Now, if you're a best of the best, yeah, you're still odds are going to be bad, but you choose to put in for the best of that. I think it's a natural, I think it's a natural state. You want to do, you want to make drawing odds better without changing tag numbers and without changing applicants. That's a way to do it. That's pretty hard to do without changing those two variables. But here's an idea. Yeah. Go to one. That's right. Go to one.

And it's hard when you've done it your whole life because you've had the wish list. But even Jason, even the 240s rifles odds are going to get better. Because why? The people that put it now is their first choice. Because people in Reno that want to hunt next to home for residents are not going to be applying there. Or me. Or you. If I choose up some rifle hunts now just because, if I put a late hunt, I'm not going to waste my chance. No. But it's my only chance. You call it a waste because the draws are still going to be tough for us. They're still going to be bad, but they are even going to get better. Yeah. People will leave those units to pick their one choice somewhere else. But it goes back to people don't like change. We've done five choices since the beginning of time. My parents did five choices. I'm going to do five choices. And so it's hard for residents.

And so, hey, develop your system. We'll play by it. It's all good. We support you. That's just an option. I think it's a valid option. I think you should be considered. But, hey, one last one. Just a fun one. Yeah. Okay. Favorite CD to put in the truck while road hunting. Okay. The word CD. The little initial CD. My oldest daughter remembers that. Colton probably does, too. You probably have CDs in his age. I did it in mine. I'm thinking it's SiriusXM. Or say podcasts. Or say podcasts. Or whatever. We stream off our phones. But it's... CD? No. I don't know. Y2 country. How about that? Yeah. The highway. I like the highway. I end up going to Y2 more. Highway's a repeat all day long. It is a repeat. I go to Y2K and it's just good stuff from when I was maybe raising kids and younger and a broader. I don't like the song. I'll click Y2K. Yeah.

It's a 20-year chunk instead of the last basically two years and six months. You're not doing Garth Channel or whatever else? No, I don't. What about Fox News? I've got my favorites. I did it. It's all three of the Fox. Business, the regular, and the headlines. And I'm ESPN. I have ESPN. I'm number 80, 81. And if I've got games on at night. And, yeah, I'm one of those guys that if I'm traveling and there's a golf major. If I'm on your own, I'll listen to golf on the radio. Yeah, I'm one of those guys. Okay, okay. So I'll make one admission. I don't have CNN saved as a favorite, but I love to listen to it once in a while. It's just kind of low. I just love it. They're called crazy. Well, it's fun. I don't even think you could call it news anymore. They're so mad. I don't listen to it, but after the election, it was fun to go listen to for that few days

after because it was like their life was coming unwound. And I'm like, yeah, think about us for the last four years. Like that's how we felt, you know? All right. I'm way past that. Politics. Did you scratch those off? We've got lots more to go through. We'll have some of these with the other guys. So many more. But we appreciate everybody that's sending ideas in. Some of them are thought-provoking. Some of them are just fun. And they're all good. So we appreciate the input there. We do have a few others that are probably going to turn into either singles, podcast episodes, the whole thing that are pretty big, and or maybe combine a couple of big ideas that we're poised into one whole podcast. Keep sending them in. It's awesome. This stuff's thought-provoking. Brings up some old stories and whatnot. It's just awesome. Sometimes we... Gets us through the off-season, too.

Ourselves included. Sometimes Adam and I sit at the table and we're like, what now? Jeez. What rant do we want to get on now? Whose feathers are we going to ruffle today? But anyway, also, just a little shout-out. We're wrapping up our membership drive. It's been awesome. We appreciate the support. These are just world-class hunts. We'd encourage you to get your name in the hat. You should at least have a name in the hat, if not five or ten of them, if not more. Anyway, doll sheep in the Yukon. We're doing the Yukon moose with Dueling Stone. Super good people. Again, as a reminder, elk in Utah, elk in New Mexico, Nevada, mule deer, Utah mule deer. Antelope in New Mexico, gear packages, 10,000 toward a hunt. Just a ton of cool stuff that's really fun. It creates an excitement around here. It creates an excitement within the membership.

Also give you a knife, headlamps, things like that for a certain level of participation. So we'd love to have you support us. And I'd love to call you up, put you on the podcast, and announce that you won. Very well, probably, Logan. After people hear this one, the next podcast we do will probably be the winners. Yeah. Right? That's pretty much where we're at, right? That's pretty much where we are. So the next podcast you're listening could be you. Got to get your intros in by March 3rd at 1159. Well, of course, that's a Monday. We'll be here in the office that day. But if you don't get them done, you're going to have to go online to epicoutdoors.com, buy them online. We will be here Monday on the 3rd all day if you're one of those procrastinators. But we'll be here. Or you can go online. Hope the next podcast is full of fun. Oh, it's going to be fun.

So anyway, epicoutdoors.com or 435-263-0777. We're open Monday. You're going to hear this Sunday night. You've got 24, 36 hours. I don't know, somewhere in there, 24 hours to get your name in the hat. And we'd love to see it in there. So anyway, from all of us here at Epic Outdoors, we appreciate your support. And we're going to keep these podcasts rolling weekly. We promise, one way or another. Sometimes it's hard to get in the podcast room here, Bronson. We break away from our desk. It's hard. But we're going to do it. We've committed to it. And it's good. It's good for us, too. We've got a lot of rants going on in the office because that's what we do when we're discussing mostly application strategies and what we're personally going to do, which hopefully gives you guys a few ideas on what maybe you might think about doing. All right. That's enough for now, Bronson.

Let's call it a day. Let's face it. If your goal is to kill big stuff, you need to draw quality tags. Quality tags are typically hard to draw. To increase your odds of drawing good tags, you need to apply in multiple states. That's where an Epic Outdoors membership can help. For only $150 a year, you get access to our consultants, our online tools, and to Epic-approved outfitters and members-only optics discounts. With unlimited access to our team of consultants and access to the Epic Outdoors magazines, applying in multiple states is easy. No more worrying if you're applying for the best areas, no more applying for a unit where there has been a die-off, and no more missing opportunities where you could be in the field and not sitting at home. Go online at epicoutdoors.com or call us today at 435-263-0777 to find out how you can become a member today.

Kuyu is the most uncompromising camo on the market. Their new Guide Pro series is the toughest, most comfortable camo you will ever own. Check out their new additions and shop men and women's camo now at kuyu.com. That's K-U-I-U dot com. Kennetrek makes boots for every hunt. Applying for tags in multiple western states can be time-consuming. At Epic Outdoors, we have you covered. Whether you want to expand your hunting portfolio or simply ensure that you never miss a deadline again, the Epic Outdoors licensed application service is exactly what you need. It's like having the best CPAs in the finance world do your taxes. Let the best hunting application gurus in the world do your tag applications. You'll never miss a deadline, you'll never apply for the wrong unit, and you'll never apply for a unit that's having a die-off. Your time is valuable. We do the work. You draw the tags.

Epic Outdoors licensed app. 435-263-0777. If you want a bow from the best manufacturer there is, look at Hoyt Archery. With the addition of the new Carbon RX-8 and the Aluminum Alpha X, Hoyt has reimagined what a bow can do. Hoyt bows, where 70 pounds feels like 60. Call us to order yours today. 435-263-0777. With Fierce Rifles, every detail matters. They are hands down one of the best rifle manufacturers in the industry, and they never seem to stop making new innovations. If you want to get serious about your long-range shooting, call us to talk over your options for your next Fierce Rifle. Epic Outdoors is an official Fierce Rifle dealer. Our consultants know their whole line of rifles inside and out. 435-263-0777. Epic Optics is an authorized dealer for Swarovski, Leica, Zeiss, Vortex, Leopold, Kawa, Sig Sauer, and more.

Here at Epic Optics, we are committed to getting you the best deal for the glass that fits your needs. Go to EpicOptics.com or call in to speak with our consultants who will fit you with the perfect optics for your next hunt. 435-263-0777. If you're looking for your next hunting property, look no further than St. James. St. James are the experts at all sporting properties across the West. Their team of agents will spend the time getting to know you personally and find out which property out of the hundreds they have listed is perfect for you. If you've always wanted a property where you could hunt and fish, go online to StJamesSportingProperties.com or give them a call at 855-711-7577 to learn more. Vortex makes optics for every occasion. Whether you're a long-range shooter dialing in that perfect shot or an archery hunter in need of an easy-to-carry optic without sacrificing quality,

Vortex has you covered. Head over to EpicOptics.com or call us to learn more about your Vortex options today at 435-263-0777. From top-of-the-line hunting blinds to game calls that can't be beat, GSM Outdoors has you covered for whatever outdoor equipment you need. For all of their products, head over to GSMOutdoors.com to learn more. Thompson Long Range has perfected the art of simple, affordable long-range shooting. If you don't want to calculate ballistics or adjust your turrets before making a shot, a Thompson Long Range system is for you. Simply range, place the hash mark for that distance on the animal, and pull the trigger. They make top-quality rifles and host a shooting school that will leave you confident in making shots out to 1,000 yards. Visit ThompsonLongRange.com to learn more about purchasing your next rifle or booking your next shooting school experience.

The crew at Epic Outdoors trust StealthCam trail cameras to get us through the scouting season. StealthCam is the leading trail camera brand because they never stop innovating. Check out their brand new line of trail cameras, including the Revolver 360-degree camera, at StealthCam.com. Epic Outdoors is an official StealthCam dealer. Call us to order yours today at 435-263-0777. PhoneScope changed the game with their digiscoping innovations and have remained the top phone-to-optic adapter on the market. Check out the incredible new Carbon Pro PhoneScope now at PhoneScope.com. P-H-O-N-E-S-K-O-P-E.com. Outdoor Edge is the knife that we all use here at Epic Outdoors. Whether it's a replaceable blade or fixed blade, you will not be disappointed with your Outdoor Edge knife. Head over to OutdoorEdge.com and check out their brand new Razer VX knife today.

Epic Outdoors is proud to be an official Zeiss dealer and optics partner. When it comes to top-tier quality, Zeiss has been a leader in the industry for generations. If you're in the market for new optics, give us a call for unbelievable deals on Zeiss products. Giving you the highest quality and durability out there without breaking the bank is what makes Zeiss so good. Check out our website, EpicOptics.com, or call us at 435-263-0777 to find out which Zeiss optic is perfect for you. Epic Outdoors is now an official CVA Muzzle Loader dealer. If you're in the market for a new Muzzle Loader, our staff can go over the different options that you should consider. CVA Muzzle Loaders are the go-to Muzzle Loader for Epic Outdoors and crew. We've definitely got our favorite setups for Western Big Game hunting in stock.

Call us today at 435-263-0777 to find out which CVA is perfect for your next hunt.