EP 40: Mule Deer Success with Jason Carter and the Rich Outdoors

You know, you can buy the most expensive tag in the world, but you have to have the experience to back that. You know, all these different seasons have different techniques. I'm only thinking about what the deer is doing and where my next move is. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter here with the Epic Outdoors podcast. This is an interesting episode. Cody Rich of the Rich Outdoors asked me to come on and just, you know, visit about Mule Deer. And he's got a lot of Mule Deer following. And anyway, so we sat down and recorded a podcast with him and just visited about everything Mule Deer, archery, muzzle, and rifle. And so anyway, we thought we'd share that on our channel as well. And he'll be doing the same on his. And so anyway, just encourage everybody that's listening to podcasts, that likes to listen to podcasts, go listen to the Rich Outdoors. He's got a wide variety of guests on there and good guys within the industry. And so anyway, appreciate Cody getting a hold of me and cranking one of these episodes out.

And so anyway, as always, Under Armour sponsors all of Epic Outdoors podcasts. We appreciate them and their sponsorship and working with them on the various opportunities and different things that we're doing here at the Epic Outdoors. And so anyway, with that, let's dive into this podcast. All right, Jason, welcome to the podcast. It's good to have you back. We had such a good time last time chatting. I don't even think we really got too deep into Mule Deer hunting last time. We kind of just DSed the whole time. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I felt a little wallered out time we got done, but that's what these podcasts do. They make you stretch and do it in a timely fashion and take you from, you know, tons of different topics and just off the cuff, but I don't really remember what we did talk about. So it'll be all new to me.

Perfect. Well, welcome to Muley Monday. I'm ready to kind of pick your brain and hear some good stories on mule deer hunting. You're definitely one of the experts that I look up to as far as being able to put big bucks on the ground consistently. So I'm happy to, you know, get some advice from you. All right. Yeah. Happy to visit a little bit. You know, of course, there's a lot of guys that are getting the job done out there and whatnot, but maybe if I can give a couple of guys a tip or two, then, you know, or at least some energy to get out there and get it done, then great. Then we've succeeded. So what's on the docket this year? I mean, you got your bucks already picked out. You got your hunts planned. I mean, how far into this are you? Yeah. There's, you know, for me, you know, the scouting just kind of never quits. And so, I mean, there's some definite good deer.

You know, I've always liked to hunt Nevada because it's an August 10th opener. And you kind of, you know, waiting for the Utah. It's a whole nother nine, ten days generally, you know, to start on their archery season. And so Nevada is just one of those I like to start with, and everybody's excited. It's kind of like running trail cameras in May. There's no real sense in it, but we all kind of like to get started early. And, you know, even some of the bucks will still be growing in Nevada. I've seen them, you know, put on literally 30, 40 inches from August 1st to August 10th. Some bucks just blow up and go crazy on you. And so, anyway, scouting will never quit, really. I mean, I use that August time frame. Even during the season, you know, I'll continue to run trail cameras in glass and hit new areas and whatnot to, you know,

to maybe we kill a buck that we find in August, even mid-August in September or whatever. So, Nevada, I've got Nevada deer tag, Utah deer tag, Colorado, New Mexico. My kids have got Utah, Colorado, New Mexico deer tags. And so just got quite a bit lined up. Super excited for this year. Yeah, I mean, now you've got kids that are that age where they're going to be killers themselves. And so you have a lot of tags in your pocket, so to speak. Yeah, it's not, you know, sometimes people like to think it's the doom and gloom and tags are just impossible to come by. And, I mean, I've got kids with three deer tags, you know, they can't even take off, you know, a couple of days of school to, you know, let alone, you know, fulfill those, you know, and do justice to those three tags. And so it's really not. There's tags out there for everybody and anybody that wants to hunt.

And, you know, our kids are living proof of that, especially if you're willing to cross a couple of state borders, you know. Yeah, you hear that a lot that, you know, everyone complains that there's not good tags. But there's tags that just require some more work than other tags, I think, is kind of the case, so to speak. Yeah, and I think you've done well on some of your different guests on your podcast, kind of going through that. And there's a lot of people that have proven that to be true, you know, with hard work. I mean, we're going to have to get out of the gym. We're going to have to slow down on the protein powder and go out and scout. But guys that are willing to scout and work at it and put forth a good amount of effort, it's just like anything in life. You're going to see the results of that, you know. Yeah. The number of days in the field is just huge.

And I think that's underrated and underappreciated is how much time guys who are successful really put in the field. You know, they're not – I mean, the most important thing is to be out there because that's the only way to really get good at this, to find bucks you're not going to find, is just number of days in the field. Yeah, and that's – and it may or may not be for everyone. There's a lot of guys out there that just like to enjoy a good hunt. And I've had guys that, you know, come up to me and be like, I just don't even aspire to do what you do. I don't even really want to be out in the field more than a nine-day season or a five-day season. Like, I'm kind of happy when it's over with and go home. And that's okay too, you know. There's a little bit of something for everybody. But for the guy that does want to, you know, work hard and whatnot, if you think about your hunt

and that's – you know, all these different seasons have different techniques. And, you know, if you think about your hunt and you hunt smart, you know, with the season that you have or the weapon you have and then coupled with just time and you spend that time wisely, you're just – you're going to do well. You can't help but do well and have opportunities. And as long as you can make good on those opportunities and close the deal when the deal presents itself, then, you know, guys are going to do well. And the guys that do well consistently, you see that. But there's common, you know, factors that they all share. And those are some of them. Yeah, it's like everything's a little piece. You know, scouting is this one little piece. You know, shooting a bow is a little piece. It's just one piece of the puzzle. And being able to make it happen.

And with stalking and understanding deer behavior and all these things are just little pieces to the puzzle. And you have to kind of have them all to be really successful in the long run. Is that right? Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think you're dead on there. Like, you don't have to be the best at every piece. But you need to be proficient in every piece. And you're going to, you know, if you didn't have the scouting piece, there's going to be times. You go on enough hunts, you're going to get lucky. And we all know guys that are lucky. And I've been lucky. And like I said, I've said it in the past, I take it every time it comes around. But, you know, to be able to stack that luck, to be able to stack your odds and to kind of force your luck is what I like to do. And you do need all the little things. I've said it time and time again.

Some of my friends, some of my friends you can be brutally honest with, is, you know, what's holding you back is the little things. Like, you're screwing with your range finder. The, you know, the Swaro EL range. The button's on the left side and you're a right hander. Like, you know, there's just dumb stuff that will cost you deer. And when it costs you deer, it's not worth it to have it. And so if you can kind of, you know, minimize loose gear, minimize gear you're not familiar with, all that. Just, I don't care if it works for everybody else or what's popular with everybody else. What's popular, you know, what works for me is what works for me. And everybody's different, you know. And you just got to really be able to use the gear that you have on your person and your truck. And, and know it intimately.

And, and then, you know, coupled with scouting, coupled with area you like to hunt, what drives you, all of those things. And if you get everything, you know, lined up, then you're bound to be successful. It does seem like the attention, the, the attention to detail is what separates, you know, the good from the great. Do you find that you try to use new gear that's going to be more efficient? Or are you more comfortable with gear you know very well? Um, well, I mean, we all, new gear's good. I mean, you know, they've made some changes and some things that have helped over the years. And angle compensating range finders. And, you know, all kinds of just new stuff. I like new, new glass. You, you know, you got clearer glass than we've had in the past. And we used to think, you know, those old Zeiss 10x42s and, you know, kind of revolutionized glassing.

And then, and then, uh, you know, now those, you know, you look like, it feels like you're looking through, you know, Coke bottles, you know, nowadays when you look back through them. Yeah. Because, because things have come so far. And, and, uh, and so it's good to, it's good to be on top of it. But having said that, like, I killed some bucks with, you know, a Hoyt, you know, back in the day in year 2000. I had a year 2000 bow. I don't think you need a new bow every year because it's cool. I really don't, you know. And my bow manufacturers might hate hearing me say that, but, you know, we don't wear a bow out. I mean, come on, you know. And so I think it's important to be proficient and to, you know, if you have six months or eight months to work out that new bow and work out the kinks, then great. But don't be changing your gear in July. Just don't do it, you know.

That's so true. So when it comes to preparation and you're talking about gear, like what's your preparation going into this time of, time of year? Or are you, you know, using all your gear? You practice shooting with all your stuff on? Like, I mean, you're kind of in that point where you've kind of done it all. You've used all your gear. So you're probably pretty comfortable with it. But I'm just curious what your preparation this time of year looks like. Well, I mean, you want me to be honest or tell you what we're supposed to talk about? You know what I'm supposed to say? I want you to be honest. Honestly, I'm going, I'm scouting every single day. So I'm not even using my gear. I mean, I'm using my, you know, glass. I'm using tripods and stuff. But I'm not getting out, you know, stocking shoes or socks or all that.

All that I can do in 30 minutes before it's time to walk out the door or I've got my trailer loaded with it. So anyway, I don't, it's, it's, I'm, I'm, I'm just scouting every day. Like, I'm just not, you know, I want to find the next buck. I want to find more. I want to, you know, it's almost like, you know, opening season. Like, I'm, I'm dreading opening day because I feel like I'm not ready because I want to scout more. And, and it's just, you know. So anyway, I'm shooting. I shoot every day. This, you know, when it gets really close. I don't shoot every day the rest of the year. Or, you know, I'll shoot, I don't know, it'd be good to shoot once a week maybe. But right now I'm shooting every day, but I'm shooting broadheads every day. You know, and, and I'll just shoot, you know, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, whatever. And shoot one shot at each one, wrap it up, then go scout.

And I, and I spend a lot of gas money every day. Lots, lots and lots. Come into the office, clean off my desk, head back to the hills, head back to the hills. It's every day. It's just a grind every day. No, that's, that, I think that's so huge. You always talk about buy tags, not gear. And I think the same could be said for gas. Like spend your money on gas and time in the field and not particularly the gear. The gear, I don't know that it matters. Like it's, it's important, but it's not as important as just number of hours looking through glass, being in the field, being in the area, on knowing the area. Like you said, like you really start to feel it. You're like, you don't have enough time to look or to, to, to figure out the unit. Like that's where it should feel like you're in crunch time. Yeah, that's right. You're a hundred percent right.

I think the, the gear is awesome and we need it and, and it helps be successful. But, um, you can't buy scouting. You can't buy, you know, success per se. You can kind of, you know, it helps and working out helps in the gym and stuff. But, you know, spending three hours and taking selfies in the gym, does that get you a 200 inch or it just doesn't, you know, now, now, if you're hunting region G or region H, but guy needs to be in shape. I totally get that. And some of that high country in Idaho, I totally get that. 90% of our deer hunts of a mule deer. And if we're talking mule deer today, um, you know, I mean, let's just be honest. It's not going to be that physical and that aggressive. Now, some of the guys on the Wasatch and whatnot need to do it.

And, and if you are concentrating on deer and that elevation and you're having 3000 foot elevation gain every day and working crazy, then that's important. Like you gotta do it. You gotta work out. And, and, and I think everybody should work out and I think it's a good lifestyle. I think everybody should scout more. I think it needs to, I really think that's where the success, you know, you don't, you don't see people, you know, Greg Krog, for example, is a world renowned, you know, mule deer guide. He's an outfitter. And of course he does well in anything he does and, and hunting elk and whatnot. I don't see workout gym selfies with that guy, but, but I promise you he's in shape. I promise you he can get the job done. And he, where he's putting his time is scouting where I'm putting my time is scouting where you look at, at, um, some of the guys that consistently get it done.

And, and, uh, you know, even, you know, guys like Steve Alderman in Idaho. And we all have them in our localized areas of guys that get the job done. You're not seeing those guys in the gym. They are in the gym, but that's not where their priorities lie. Where their priorities lie is, is getting phone scope footage of deer or comparing this buck to that buck and shed hunting and finding more water and finding more, you know, areas that they like to feed and learning habits and patterns and immersing themselves in the deer. You know, if you immerse yourself in the gym, you're going to do well in the gym and that's where your, your success is going to be. And that's good. Like I'm good with that. But if you immerse yourself in the deer, you immerse yourself in that elk hunt, um, you know, and do the preparation that that hunt needs, then you're going to be successful.

And it's the same thing with gear. Same thing with everything. You can't buy your way into these animals. Sometimes you can, like you can buy better tags and maybe that unit is managed a little tighter and the tags are expensive. And so it gives you a better opportunity at that one 90 plus deer or something, but man, you know, some of these very top end trophies are, are just deer than an elk and whatnot are, are, are, uh, just a product of time and, and hunting specific animals for multiple years and things like that. You know, it's funny. I think you're a hundred percent right on the, the gym, the, the time in the field and all that stuff. I, I will say like, if you're going to have fancy tags, you know, you can buy the most expensive tag in the world, but you have to have the experience to back that just because you have a nice tag doesn't mean that you can just go kill a buck.

Cause he's going to be standing next to the road, maybe once in a while, but you still need those experiences and you still got to build those, that expertise around it. You know, that's just time in the field, number of hunts, you know, how many hunts did you go on before you were able to kill consecutive 180 inch bucks? It takes a lot of hunting, a lot of experience, a lot of time in the field. And that's, that's, you're so, you're so right that that's what people need to focus on. And granted to each their own, whatever, whatever you want your experience to be. If you want to go backpacking in the high country and that's what you want out of a hunt, then great. You know, and if you want to go to the desert and that's your experience, like everyone has their own experience that you said.

Um, I think people romanticize about how, how it should be done more than like just hunting where the deer are and not where you think they should be. Right. Yep. Yeah. And, and, uh, and that's, and it's all good. Like, and that's what drives them. And, and to lead a healthy lifestyle is good. Nobody's going to argue that. Um, having said that, like some of these sheep outfitters, like in Canada and Alaska, like, and they'll work out in the gym. These guys are working out in the heels like that's where they're, they're grinding it out. And some of these other guys that are scouting Wyoming's high country or Colorado's high country or Wasatch here in Utah or Idaho. Dude, these guys are animals and they're there, but they're, they're out scouting and they're hiking that mountain. And, and some of us, you know, uh, don't have the time. And, and I totally understand that.

And, and we have jobs and there's a lot of families and there's so much that takes away from, from what we do. And so if an hour in the gym is what they do and that kind of helps their preparation. I totally understand and respect that. And, but on Saturdays, Fridays and Saturdays, Saturdays, Sunday morning, whatever guys are, can get away, you know, then it's my recommendation. You know, take that time in the heels, backpack in whatever. And just that scouting time. There's just nothing that can help a guy more than, than that, in my opinion. No, I think you're right. It's like, it's like anything you want to do something. You want to be something, look at who's there and who's doing what you want to do. And so I've always looked at like outfitters. I'm like, well, what do outfitters do? What does Greg Kroge do?

He spends all of his time in the woods and, you know, he's hiking the mountains. If he's going to go hike, he's going to do it where he can see deer. And so I always look at someone who is where I want to be and mimic what they do. I mean, you can sit there and people can give you advice on whether it's life, hunting, whatever, fitness. I mean, you can sit there and people will tell you, here's what you should do. Here's what you should do. But look at the people who are where you want to be and mimic what they do. And it seems like the most logical answer to me. Totally makes sense. And, and everybody has a different lot in life. So, you know, Greg, if we're going to talk about Greg for a minute and I, and I have a lot of respect for the guy, but, and we're good friends, but, you know, guys like him have made a life doing it and a lifestyle. And that's how it provides for his family.

So he's, he's in a fortunate set of circumstances where seven days a week, you know, he's thinking about it and working toward helping his clients, doing the scouting he needs and all of these things. And, and, and the next guy may not have that. He may not be able to be an outfitter, doesn't have the personality for it, doesn't like it that much, doesn't, um, outfitting is a hard life, you know, and, and it's not made for everybody. And so how, so, but he's got to look at those things and say, what can I do to incorporate two or three of those things that the successful guys are doing and incorporate them into my 15 hours of, of scouting a week or, or the, you know, whatever the time that they can allocate to their passion. And, and, and the rest of the time I work, I've, I'm a CPA or this or I'm that or whatever they do.

And then, um, you know, and then just incorporate those things and, and take a little bit, glean a little bit from everybody, but we all have our own personalities. We all have things we like. We all have country. We like to hunt. And, and, and if you incorporate some of these things that have, you know, been proven over the years, uh, and are successful tactics into whatever routine it is, whatever your lifestyle is, it'll help you. And, uh, you know, it's for me to say what will make a certain person in a certain geographic area successful is, is not necessarily, you know, I'm not necessarily right. What do I know about people's personal lives and things? But there's just things we call incorporate. And I'm always, you know, looking at other guys that are successful and that I have respect for. And, you know, what are they doing?

But, you know, and may incorporate some of those things if they make sense or fit me, but some things don't fit me. You know, I don't, I don't spend a lot of time behind Dr. Optics and long range glass. I do 15s and I have a pair of Cowas, um, but I don't use them that often. You know, I use the 15s all the time. I don't use the 35, 40, 50 power optics as much as a lot of guys. And there is no doubt they're successful with it. Um, they've proven it, you know, but I have different things that I like. I mean, different tactics that way. So, so that's interesting you say that because I mean, you would like, from what I said, you know, look at who is successful and what do they do and mimic that. How is that different or how do you adapt your own tactics? Is it just because you want to cover more ground or like what makes you more successful at 15s over say some big guys?

Well, um, I just, you know, all my, I'm, it's just everybody's personality is different. I move, I move a lot like to, so some guys will sit down and glass one hillside, right? And they'll glass, let's say the hillside's three miles long and, and a half mile or a mile high and they'll grid it. Right. And so they'll take, you know, they'll take a big guy type bino and they'll grid it, you know, side to side or up and down. And they'll get across that thing twice in two and a half hours. You know what I mean? And I'll take, I'll take a pair of 15s and glass the same thing, but I'm looking, I'm trained for movement more and color variation. And so, you know, I haven't ever, I haven't felt like those are quality of glass is what my 15s are. And, and they're getting better and better and better. And then, and the new swirl stuff is pretty amazing, but I'll, I like to glass faster.

I'll cover that hillside 20 times, you know, maybe more, maybe 30 times in a sitting. And, and it's because in my opinion, there's a lot of crevices and crannies and trees and brush and whatnot that they might not, you might not be able to see them as slow as you can glass. And you're looking for an antler tip, you might not be able to see them. So you got to cover it 20 times because when they step out, you have a better chance of crossing them and, and noticing that color variation or whatever. And so anyway, I'll, I'll crush it, crush it, crush it, crush it, crush it. And you see different animals each time because there might not even be in sight, but if you only cover that hill twice, you know, the chances are they were out of sight both times. You know what I mean? And so it's, but it's just my personality. I'm a mover. I'm, I'm just moving.

And to, um, and so it's just a faster, a faster pace, even if it's glass and, you know, I'm a faster pace than maybe the guy sitting next to me, but it doesn't make it right or wrong. It's just my personality, you know? And so anyway, um, for me, a big, heavy lugging, you know, slower optic, I mean, I'm more, I'm more speed and clarity of glass and the color is just extremely important to me. And, and like the old doctors, I couldn't look through them. They weren't, they're not clear. Even the doctor lovers will tell you, but it allows them to look longer distances and there's good things about that. Um, I just never really, I guess I just never really got into it. And so anyway, but that's where all of our personalities are different. All of our tactics are different. I mean, I, I'll put a set of tens on a tripod all the time, all the time in my vinyl harness.

There's a, you know, a little removable tripod adapter on my tens. I'd say 50% of the time. Cause when I stop real quick, I throw them on a tripod, I'll glass for 20 minutes and then move on. And tens on a tripod versus tens handheld are amazing. The difference. It's amazing. And so anyway, just different. It's just different. But, uh, but having said that glassing works quality glass, you should have the highest quality glass you can afford. And those are proof. That's a proven tactic. Now, how you glass, what you glass with exactly all that may vary depending on your personality, what you like, your personal preference. Yeah, no, that's so true. So true. It's interesting to hear that you use tens over fifteens or fifteens over anything else. It's, uh, you know, you hear so many people just talk about fifteens aren't good enough. Fifteens aren't good enough.

And then, you know, someone like yourself is super successful and covering ground. Are you moving a lot? Like, you know, feet wise, how many miles a day when you're scouting, just out of curiosity, how many miles a day do you think you cover? That just totally depends. Yeah. Um, you know, it just depends. You know, I, I, if I'm in an, you know, if I'm in an extreme arid environment or, or if it's something, uh, depending on how thick it is or if I need to move. Like some of it, um, like I've got a couple of my favorite places that I, that I pound pretty hard. I mean, there, there are multiple canyons and in the canyons curve, there's a lot of curvature in them and whatnot. And so I'll rim it out. Like I'll come out to the edge of the rim. I crush it for 20 minutes, go move back.

So I'm not on the skyline, come down another, uh, 400 yards, come out to the edge of the rim, crush it and just keep working like work in that country. But, you know, I wouldn't move a ton. I, I mean, a mile is a lot in a morning. It's, I really like to set up and glass. I really do like to set up and glass. It's just, but your glassing will change. You know, if you're glassing for a coos deer, you're going to be slower looking for, it's a lot smaller target, a lot smaller antler. You, you, you know, your glassing tactic would change depending on what you're glassing for. I mean, with an elk, it's, I mean, they're yellow school buses. You know what I mean? You're, uh, you're basic, you're gonna, it's not so hard to see them, you know? But, but having said that, there's a lot of thick country that, uh, you don't, you know, you're, you do see a piece of,

of a bull or, or an antler or whatnot. And, and so it just only depends on the terrain that you're in and your tactics will adjust and change. And that's what I think. I think the biggest thing, you know, in success of, of all of these guys is tactics change. Like it's one thing to, you know, I'm a glasser, I'm a glasser guy. And well, I'm a tracker guy and I'm this, I think a guy needs to be able to do a little bit of everything. Kind of like being, you know, proficient with a wide variety of gear and all your gear is the same kind of thing. In my opinion with hunting, if it, if it requires tracking, uh, then track, you know, at least know how to track, track, spend some time tracking. So you're proficient at it. So when it's game day, you're good to go, you know? And then, but I'm, do I always track? No, you know, I don't. I mean, I really don't.

I only track when I have to, but at least to know how to do it when it's time to do it. If it's long range glass and be able to long range glass, I can do that. I've got, I've got good glass for that. Uh, don't do it a lot, but I can do it. You know, if it's short range glass and if it's just, um, whatever, any, anything, you know, if it's covering the numbers, some of these hunts and we can talk about whatever you'd like to talk about today. But I mean, some of these hunts are rifle rut hunts in Colorado or Idaho. I mean, we're not sitting down and glassing in a chair for four hours on one piece of real estate. We're not freaking covering the numbers. The higher, the more bucks you can see, the more country you can cover, the better chance you are of killing, you have of killing a big deer. And so it's a numbers game on that. Now, um, having said that, that's true.

In any case, the more bucks you can see, the better off you are, but they're not movement. They're, they're not out like rutting and just covering the big doe groups. You're, you're looking for solitary bucks and it's a lot tougher. So you'd sit down and glass and in, in earlier season. So your tactics change depending on the season, depending on the time of year. And, um, and so be able to adapt and counsel yourself. You know, uh, this ain't working. We got to change things up and well, how are we going to change it up? Well, we're going to do this. And I talk to myself all the time. I talked to Chris Peterson, my videographer. Uh, he's been on a lot of my hunts with me. I'll turn to him and be like, dude, what do you think? Now I don't always do what he, what he thinks necessarily. Like I'm pretty, I'm pretty opinionated too, but I value his, he brings a different perspective

and maybe he's thinking of something I'm not. And we've killed deer because of his insight to what we've, to our situation, you know? And I think just being able to change, being able to adapt, be able to do anything that is taken, uh, and act on it and, and run with it. So, yeah, one of my goals as a hunter is to be very well-rounded and it's easy to get complacent and, and kind of stick with what works because you found success in it. And a lot of guys will do this like with area with something that, you know, they'll find success and they don't want to not have success. So they keep doing what they're successful at, which inevitably makes them not very well rounded. I think one of the reasons you're so, so good is because you're very well-rounded. You have the ability to hunt late season bucks, to cover ground.

You have the ability to find bucks early season, you know, find a big buck and stay on them. And like, there's all these things that I think being a well-rounded hunter makes you that much better in the long run. Yeah. Uh, you know, maybe, and, and I, I don't think a lot about that, but a lot of it is our childhood experiences. You know, I was always taught, my dad always taught me you hunt, you know, elk in September, deer in November. And so, you know, and that's true to a degree, but, but if you, you know, it's good to hunt. I like that mentality. Yeah, I know you're an elk hunter and I think, and I, and, and that's awesome. And, and, and I love a deer hunt in the rut. Like, I love it. Who doesn't like lift curling bucks and to see the game and to, and the excitement and, you know, a frosty morning and all that is just awesome. It's bad management.

You know, it is bad management to hunt deer in the rut. Like you shouldn't be able to hunt deer in the rut. And, uh, and so States have gotten away, gotten, gone away from it. We used to hear in Utah hunt over the counter muzzleloader hunts in November. And we talk about it often because I love those days. And, and I took them for granted. I was a kid. I was freaking 16 years old, 17 years old. And, and we, uh, saw some amazing things, you know, bucks fight in a literal two minute fight with two great bucks. And, you know, you got a muzzleloader in your hands and stuff. And so you get to experience some of those things, but we've gotten away from it. But, but anyway, um, having said that, the more I've gotten into muzzleloader and the more addicted I've become, I've learned that deer are vulnerable in September. They're vulnerable in August.

Um, I wasn't always, I, I, I've archery hunted and, and shot a bow since I was just a kid. My, my first compound bow, I mean, I wish I still had it. It was a carol bow. And, um, but anyway, um, I have fond memories of that, but I wasn't just a diehard archer. I, I, I did love muzzleloader hunting and I wanted to set some world records with a muzzleloader when I was a kid. But anyway, I realized that wasn't probably going to happen. I didn't have it in me at the time and, and it wasn't, it wasn't good enough. But, um, archery, muzzle, rifle, being able to utilize all three weapons and, and, uh, and then go out and, and if you're archery hunting in August, there's tactics for that. If you're muzzleloader hunting, depending on the time of year that the muzzleloader season is, there are tactics for that. If they're rifle hunting in October, that's tough.

And you're going to have to use every tactic, but, um, and then, and then you got, uh, archery hunting in, in January in New Mexico, that's back to, you know, rut hunting. And so, um, there's tactics for all of it. And, and I think, you know, as more addicted I've become and the more addicted your listeners are becoming and, and it's kind of a craze. People are excited about them again. Uh, it feels like there's just a lot of emphasis on muzzleloader and I, and I love that, but they, but they also need to be good with all weapons. Now, if there's just a diehard archer and you paint yourself in a corner of, I'm an, I'm an archery hunter. That's who I am. Um, I never pick up a rifle, then that's great. And there's certain tactics for that. And you might be able to get away with not being good at a wide variety or proficient, not good, but proficient at a wide variety of tactics.

It might be, I hunt velvet bucks. Uh, this is where I like to hunt. I, I only hunt this geographic location and then you become the best or, or just become proficient or whatever, you know, your time allows and your personality. Uh, and, and you'll be able to get away with that and you'll feel, and your life will be fulfilled because that's what you like and you don't want for anything different. You know what I mean? And so our circumstances are all different. Our personalities are all different, but anyway, um, I don't know, a lot of rambling there. So. No, you're good. So what's the hardest hunt you've ever been on? Or I guess the most humbling hunt. Oh, you didn't even let me prepare for this one.

Um, oh, better that way. Okay. So. Candid. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, I hunted, um, I hunted deer we call buster and I, and, uh, probably the most humbling hunt, toughest hunt. Um, I was being videoed, uh, with Under Armour's Ridge Reaper series, um, picked out a specific deer and keep in mind, like we're doing TV and that always, you know, everybody talks about that changing. It changes the dynamic and it does, it does change things. You got more people in the field. You're trying to put on, put off a good production, but I, I'm not really willing to lower my standards in a case or two. I did, uh, for the benefit of TV. Um, but for the most part, uh, I stayed true to myself and I want to hunt the biggest animal I know of. Well, buster was the biggest animal I knew of. And we've got a Nevada hunt. I'm archery hunting.

I've got a lot of pressure with everybody there and trying to put off a good show. And this is a freaking old deer. He doesn't put up with nothing. He waters in the dark, he's by himself and, um, he's traveling a lot further than I thought he was. And we would come up with every freaking deer that came into the water. Every deer that we had on trail camera, we found except for buster. And, um, you know, there's a 200 inch deer that I wasn't hunting and we could have stocked him. We had him at 150 yards. We, you know, but he was thin horned. He had great genetics. I wanted to let him live. He was going to live unless we killed him. There wasn't anybody else messing with him. And so all of this kind of played into the fact that we're going to stay on buster. And, uh, anyway, we grounded out. I'm telling you, I'm talking 20 days.

Have you ever like just hunted 20 solid days in 95 plus degree weather and grounded out, never quitting? You know what I mean? Just never quitting and not seeing saw him one time. Okay. I mean, just, can you do that? You know? And it tested me like it tested me, man. And at some point, um, I had to throw in the towel, you know, I had to like, give it up. Like productions going home. Videographers are going home. I'm, I'm freaking ready to be done. And, uh, anyway, um, ended up, we did. What keeps you going in those moments? Like what in, in, in moments like that, obviously that one is special circumstances with video and everything like that. But say you're, you're on a hunt and you're, it doesn't matter if it's 10 days or 15 days, everyone's going to have their point. What, what keeps you going? Prior successes of, and putting my hands on an animal that is otherwise untouchable.

Well, always when I was a kid, I looked at, um, you know, we'd look at deer and Eastman's magazine or whatever magazine you'd get your hands on. Um, back in the day and seeing these, I call them prehistoric giants, you know, they just, they don't even look like mule deer. They're a different species and, and points going everywhere. A lot of, you know, you, you know, some of these bucks are historic out of Oregon or Idaho or, you know, here in Utah or wherever you're hunting. And, and the knowledge that, you know, knowing that everything's stacked against us this day and age, these are the times back wish you were born in the sixties, all of these things. And I'm like, no, I want to put hands on my hands on those kinds of deer in the 21st century. You know what I mean? And, and so I think it's just, I know where a deer like that is. In fact, he's within three miles of us right now.

And somewhere, you know, somewhere he's bedded under a tree chewing his cud. And, um, he's a prehistoric looking deer. He's mid 30, 36 inches wide, you know, 12 points on one side, seven or eight on the other side. Um, heavy as your forearm, you know, just picturing that knowing put, wanting to put your hands on him. And having been fortunate enough to put my hands on a couple of just stud deer, you know, you thirst for it again. And, and, and the fight, the 20 day fight or the two year fight, like there might be a two year quest or a three year quest on some of these deer makes it better. Like when you, if you finally do, and I never did get to put my hands on him by the way, but if you finally do, uh, finish that, finish that story. There is nothing like it. I, I, I mean, other than your kids shooting their first deer and watching, uh, your kids succeed.

That's the only other thing I can compare it to is, uh, is just the culmination and the emotion of it and being wrapped up in it. And it's something you wake up every day thinking about and, and whatnot from the time you first find him scouting to the time you're hunting into after the season ends and you still think about him, you know, that's what keeps you going. Um, to me, that's just what keeps me going. So. No, that's, that's so true. And I think, I think you're absolutely right. The prior success, having that success, having that struggle and then the success is huge. And I think that's what so many people lack. A lot of people getting into hunting. If you don't find early success, it can be very, very, very hard. And you go into these things and say it's 95 degrees, even for five days. You're like, what am I doing? This is ridiculous. You talk yourself out of it.

And I think you have to go through that struggle. You have to go through those fights and failures and successes to know what that potential feels like. And when you've been through the hard times, you've 20 days into it, and you finally put your hands on something you've chased and worked so hard for, you know what that feeling is. And I think so many guys getting into mule deer hunting or elk hunting, whatever it may be, they, they have those struggles and it's easy to talk yourself out of it. I mean, you can be the, you can be completely mentally tough. You can be a total badass on the mountain. You can run a hundred mile marathon, but there's something about the struggle of not seeing a deer for five days, 10 days, whatever it may be, that that's really hard to get through. And I think a lot of guys talk themselves out of it. And, and you're a hundred percent right.

And so could I have done, and you can think about this for yourself too, but could I have done that hunt with that enthusiasm for that long time, 15 years ago? You know, no, there's no way. There's no way I'd have given up. And that comes with time. It's just like my brother-in-law's, you know, went up above town here and, and went up on the Panguitch Lake, you know, and saw tons of deer and it was exciting. Like it's exciting. And, and his kids are excited and, and all that. Now, now let's say he takes his kids out to my home, you know, and, and luckily we were seeing some bucks, but that's maybe even a bad example. Like Southwest desert takes his kids out to Southwest desert where they come from Northern Utah. They're used to seeing deer. That's what gets them excited. And that's what gets all of us excited.

We all like to see game, but, um, and, and, and he gives them their, you know, first introduction to actually packing a gun in the field, coming from where they normally see deer and take them out to Southwest desert. And you see, you know, two deer a day. Okay. That, that, that is gonna, I would venture to say, ruin that kid's appetite for hunting, uh, unless he was raised in that environment. My kids don't, don't even know how to spell Aspen. You know, they've never seen Aspen trees, right? I mean, my kids are with me in the desert and I've raised them in the desert. And, uh, and, and I've got lots of deer within 15 minutes of my town of town here, you know, but we go to the desert because, you know, that's where I like to go. And, and, and so, and that's where we spend a lot of time.

And so I ask them all the time, like, do you guys want to go up to the high country or you want to like, that'd be foreign to them. They don't want to, they love the desert. There's scorpions, snakes, scorpion, snakes, coyotes. I mean, there's so much little game that they just love and, and appreciate. And so anyway, just take somebody's, you know, a first year hunter or second, third, fourth year hunter and go out. And, and I think it's important to see game. But as you, as your experiences increase, your knowledge increases, maybe your dedication toward trophy may increase or may not. But if it does, it'll allow you to be able to stay in the game longer. It'll allow you to accept daily failures and, and not hate hunting. You know what I mean? And that comes with age. It comes with time. It comes with years and all of that.

And so like, uh, you know, um, new, new hunters, you know, shouldn't, shouldn't go out on a hunt with me necessarily. You know, although some of them I go on, I'd love it. They'd hate it. Some would hate it. Right. But then some of them in Colorado or Idaho, I'm hunting rut hunts. They would love it. They would love it. We see 300 bucks or 400 bucks. And I do that too. Like I like those hunts, you know, but, um, some of that, just that time in the field allows you. I mean, a lot of these guys, um, everybody likes a good run and everybody likes seeing a game, but some of these guys are, are used to the daily failures. Aren't failures. They're just, they're just, they're just adjustments. Okay. I've been on that now. I didn't see much. I'm going to adjust. I'm going to change. I'm going to move. You know what I mean?

They're not, they're not failures, you know, but some, some people, and I've been with them and even clients, it's hard for them. Today was a failure. This whole hunt's a failure. Pretty soon I'm going to go home to mama, you know? And, uh, and I think we got to just got it. Time will help that. Um, having said that you can't just tell people to change and you can't tell them to buck up because it's, it's not. Yeah. It doesn't work that way. They, they're not going to have fun. They, they need a different experience. Well, it's the same with like kids. And then, you know, this, I'm sure this happens with you and your kids. You're at this point where you've had all those failures. You've had so much success. You know how hard it is to push. And, and I think that a lot of people with kids have a hard time, you know, their kids aren't going to push this hard, obviously.

And so, you know what it takes to be great and it's hard not to push that on your kids. And so like to make it fun, like you do talk about keeping it fun for your kids, um, because their, their inherent toughness, if you will, or, or being their will to kind of suffer faster, get through the suffer fast. It's only going to come with time and experience. And so you have to like, like starting over a little bit and you have to work through that. And, and I think that's true with even new hunters, you know, say, say I'm, I'm a hunter, been doing a long time. And I, my friend wants to come with me. It's like, you have to kind of back up a little bit and not put them through so much. And everyone's life experience changes that.

So if, you know, if you have, you've been through struggles and other things, there's guys that come into hunting and can totally manage to complete suffer fest because they've been through a lot of that stuff in other aspects of life. So, I mean, it's all relative. Yeah, it's all relative. And, and as time goes along, then they can accept more. They can learn more. They can take in more and learn and understand that it's just really not failures, you know, and, and can, and can change and mold and adapt. And pretty soon they become proficient at what they like to do. And it's just like my kid, Sean, I got a kid. He freaking lives for hunting, lives for it. That's the only thing the kid thinks about. And, and, um, he would quit school. He doesn't want to go to college kind of kid. He's really good with hands on, um, and just lives for hunting.

Well, he won't, you know, I'm going to make a living hunting like my dad. Well, you just don't make a living hunting. Hunting is, is the, it's the poor. I always say it's the poorest industry of a professional sports of any professional sport. Um, it's very, very tough, you know, aside from being an outfitter or going about the traditional way. And so, and I've guided and continue to, and, and, uh, and it's good. And that's a natural way to, to, uh, kind of fund your budget. But anyway, he, uh, as he's going along, this kid continually talks about it, continually talks about drive, drive, drive, drive. And I'm like, and I've never talked to him about it. I don't really want to push him to that because it's a life of misery. You know what I mean? It's tough. Yeah.

And I want him to, I'm like, you should make a lot of money and just hunt for fun, kiddo, you know, and, uh, do something awesome and be awesome at something else. And then just use this as kind of a passion on the side. And anyway, finally, one day he's just grinding, grinding on about it. And I can tell it's not going to quit. This kid misses a lot. He misses, he shoots every birds and this and that. But, and, but he misses, you know, he misses a little bit. And I'm like, finally, I just said, Hey, Sean, um, you know, part of training to hunt and, and becoming is becoming proficient. And, you know, you're okay with a miss. Like you're okay with it. Instead of saying, why did I miss? Like, why did I miss it? I'm like, I'm, I'm watching you and I'm thinking, Hey, you need a dead rest. Okay. So you, you missed that bird. You need a dead rest. You're not taking a dead rest.

Why didn't you take a dead rest? You know, why didn't you? What about your gun? Is it not set it in? Right? Like, let's talk about this. And then, and then, uh, and then I tell him, I'm like, you want to make a living in hunting? And he's like, yes. And I'm like, let's say I missed deer like this. And I missed elk like this. Do you think I would be making a living at hunting, putting on a Ridge Reaper TV show, all of these other things? Well, no. Like, you're right. People don't pay you to miss. And so I've got to minimize that. How am I going to minimize that? I'm going to try to make every shot count. And you've got to make every shot count. If you're going to shoot that rabbit, like, make it count. Don't just shoot at him and then not wonder and then not think, why did I miss that rabbit? Well, you've got to think. My gun's off. My rest is off. I jerked the trigger. What did you do?

What did you do? And let's minimize that and let's start being lethal and making them count. And then when a deer's in front of you, you're going to be lethal. And it changed him. I mean, unbelievable, the difference that it made in his life. But and that just comes with experience. It comes with time. It comes with different experiences you have in the field. So, yeah, it's funny you're talking about that. I remember as a kid, I had a bolt action 22 and there's nothing I wanted more than a semi-automatic. Like, that was the cool thing. And I would get a bolt action and I'd only get like 10 rounds. But inevitably, that made me a much better shot because I wasn't just flinging lead all the time. And so having the bolt action, even back in the BB gun days, I remember it was like I had a little daisy and it wouldn't give me a fancier gun.

You know, you had to really put the stock on and sneak up and, you know, all these things that kind of like build up to it. And that's what makes you a better hunter. You know, you were talking about that. You were talking about that. That made me think like the difference that I found, you know, is like guys who are very successful walk through every scenario in their head a million times. It's like you've probably gone through the scenario of how the stock looks 20 times before you ever make that stock. Is that something you do a lot? Well, like let's say we're glassing a deer and, you know, I always like to wait until they're bedded. Generally, I like them to be stationary. So I can hone in on a place. I can work the wind. And so I'll usually wait until the wind comes up for the day. And so it's usually in a solid direction.

In the morning, you'll have a lot of swirling as it's trying to come up and you get a little bit of thermals and the morning's burning off. And so, you know, you'll get that swirl. So I'll stock them a lot. And especially if I can see embedded, I'll stock them a lot right in the midday in the hottest part of the day. And usually the wind's a little bit steady. You get a 5 or 10 in your face or whatever. And you can get the wind in your face. So anyway, and then I'll go through the scenario. I'm going to go to this tree, go to this rock, go to this. Or if he's just feeding and you're trying to beat him to bed because when he beds, he's going to be in thick enough trees you can't see him. Then, and you're not sure where he beds, then you can't stock them. If you don't know where they're bedded, you can't stock them. Or you shouldn't.

You know, if you walk in there, you're going to blow them. You blow deer. You know, it's not a good situation. And they change and adjust their habits. And so, or can for the short term. And so anyway, you know, you may be, you may stock them while they're feeding at times. And especially if you glass them right up, right off the bat. You know, you got within two hours. You know, two hours are going to be bedded. And so anyway, you'll run those stocks through your head. The final details I never really run through my head. Every freaking stock is different. And so you can't run them through your head. You just, all I know is on my body is my range finder. It's right here. This is how the fastest way I can get to him. You know, your wedding rings may shine in the sun. You take it off. You take, you know, you've got stuff that glares. You're a wrist watch. Whatever.

And so you've got, you know, may have camel gloves, a camel face mask. Your face is going to be sweaty. It's going to be shining. And then the wind. You've got a wind checker. How fast can you get to it? Double socks or a sneaking type boot on. And all of those things need to be in your pack. They need to be readily available. And then, of course, we're just talking archery here. But, and then the final details of, you know, you watch their body movement. If you're close enough, you can see when their ear flickers, if they think they're onto you, their buddy. You don't know which, maybe they got up and rebedded by the time you get there and their buddy's facing you. And now we're going to have, you know, it's going to be crazy for a minute because the buddy's going to jump up and that's going to cause, it'll be tense. And so you just never know. I never run those fine details through.

I always run the course, the basics of the stock. Yeah, you're, you're making those plans and you're going to know where to go and where to be. But that final movement where you may, you may wait until he stands up in two hours. You might be sitting there within, you know, 40 yards of him for two hours and with the wind in your face. And then when he stands up to rebed, cause the shade moves off the tree, the sun's changing position. And, um, he's going to stand up and he's going to rebed and that's when you're going to kill him. And, and so all of those things, you never know. You just never know. Yeah. I think it's great that you, how much you put a system into, and I think it's very important is having a system for your range fighter, your smoke, your, your everything, your socks, like all these things, like they need to be second nature.

And I think that's one thing I've like, my range finder is always in the same position. I always do this, this, and that's like, here's what I'm going to have. And so I have that system. And so when you get into those, when I get into those situations where I put that stock on, it seems like I don't have to think about all the little things. I'm only thinking about what the deer is doing and where my next move is instead of thinking about where's, you know, how am I going to grab my range finder? How's my bow? Is my release out of the way? So it doesn't click on my range or under all these little things. Like those are need to be just systematic. Yeah. Systematic. That's right. A hundred percent. You can't, you know, loose clothing, loose articles of whatever, just stuff. It has to be, it just has to be, this is my gear every day. This is my gear. I get up, I wear this bino strap.

I wear this, I do this, and I do this. And you're not screwing around with new stuff. It just needs to be very systematic. And guys that are, that do that and they have, they have it down are killers. And, uh, you know, they, they blow stocks, man, tons, tons and tons more than you'll know. Nobody wants to admit failures. You know what I mean? And so it's okay. You're going to blow tons of stocks and you might blow tons on one deer and, and it's okay. You know? Um, but, but, you know, try to minimize that as best you can. And, and that's. And also like you were talking about with Sean, it's like when you, when you blow a stock, think about it. How did, what went right, what went wrong? Like, how could I improve? Like, man, when I, when I say I blow an elk out and the first thing I walk through every scenario, I'll lay in bed at night and just think about that one time this happened.

Like, how would I do that differently? Think of like, just run through that scenario again. And then like, try to try to think about how, why, why it went wrong and how I can fix it the next time. There's a hundred percent. You beat yourself up over it and, and, and it's good. You need to beat yourself up. Like, like there's times I've tracked bucks. I'm tracking bucks and, and I get it. We're two or three or four hours into the track job off of maybe a water or something. And we're on his track and I know we're getting close, but I'm wore out. I may dry from water, this or that. And so I might rush it and I know I'm not supposed to rush it, but I rush it. I miss him. I miss seeing a piece of him at the base of a tree or something. And he catches me before I catch him. He blows and I've just wasted. Maybe it took me five days to get to that point where he actually came into water.

I'm on his track and I'm tracking him down. And then I blow it because I can't, I can't give it an extra breathing room of 10 or 15 or 30 or an hour or two hours that it needed to really make that effective and to not blow him like it did. And, and I find that in, in lots of things, like lots of things. I'll, I'll be, I'll be stalking a deer that I know I bedded him. I bedded him at the base of this tree. And then you get there and he's not there. Well, he's re-bedded, but he's probably close. I start to second guess myself. I think, um, I, I blew him. You know, I stepped on a stick 10 yards, 10 yards back and he must've heard it. And then you quicken your steps. You start to, you know, scan, you're moving, moving a lot, right? You're getting lazy, totally getting lazy. You assume there's a 70% chance he's bounded away and you didn't hear him.

And then, and then he stands up five yards to the side and staring at you and then bounds away. Because you were freaking lazy. Take an extra 30 minutes. Check it out. Like he just glass it, glass it with your tens at 70 yards, you know, and just, but slowly glass it, like glass it as if you think he's staring at you. And, um, and, and I've ruined, I don't know how he's there. I always like to say he's there until you know, otherwise assume he's there and treat it as such. And you, and, and I've done that. That's my, that's my personal, that's my personal problem. Is, is cause I'm a mover. It's my personality. And I get there and it didn't happen. He's not at the base of that tree. And, and then I'd let it, I'd let it affect the rest of the stock. I ruined the stock. And now I'm five days into getting another stock like that. And so anyway, there's, it's, it's a challenge.

It's, it's always different. And you're always learning no matter how many deer you've, you've been able to harvest and different variety and options. I mean, we'll learn more this year. You know what I mean? That's right. So I got a follow-up here. I guess the final one is, um, so I have an early October tag in Oregon. You know, what advice do you have for me as having an early October tag other than hope for luck? Yeah. Yeah. You need to be lucky on that one, buddy. But, uh, no, I would say like early October. So I personally find that, um, a lot of their summer patterns don't change a ton if it's really early, if it's really early October. So you're going to have like scouting would do you well, you know, you're going to scout early October, still hot. They still probably going to need water. Um, and so, you know, they like their home range and whatnot.

They're not thinking about rutting any of that. So you're going to have the, where they are in the velvet. They're very patternable. They feed a ton and then they strip their velvet. They start to get smart and, but they're still there, but they're smarter. Um, it's something, something with losing the velvet. And then in October is the smartest time a deer is in his life. He got, they're killable and patternable and whatnot and very vulnerable and, and in the velvet for a hundred reasons. And then, uh, you know, with the hard horn, they're not thinking about the rut and they're smart, but yet they can also, um, it's not so hot. They can change waters. They can change areas and stuff. And, and so bumping them is more critical. And so I would say like you're scouting to do good. And then you're going to be glassing a lot.

And, uh, you know, basically that same country that you, that you scouted them in, but toward the end of October, then they start to stretch their legs and it's a lot cooler days. They don't need water as much. They might, uh, their home range might be five or 10 miles versus three. You know what I mean? And, and, uh, anyway, and you might get a little early road activity toward the end of October. And so anyway, um, but early October hunts are hard. That's no question about it. October 15th be the worst time to hunt a mule deer, you know, um, if you could choose, you know, October 15th, October 10th to the 15th, just stay home with mama.

How's that? Uh, that's good advice. Well, appreciate it, Jason. Thanks for jumping on and give us some quick tips and, uh, best of luck this year. What else you got going on? I mean, you got some big hunts this year. I mean, the kids got tags. What else you got going on? Yeah, kids got tags. Um, I've got an elk tag in New Mexico. Um, I love to hunt elk too. And, uh, anyway, we've got a lot of different things going on here at the office. Um, of course, you know, we're affiliated with Epic Outdoors. We own Epic Outdoors here and, uh, you know, we're, we're constantly. How's it going? I mean, you finally got it pumped out. I mean, I think last time we chatted, you were just getting to that point where it was going to launch. So now how's it going? It's awesome. It's amazing. Um, huge response. Definitely not going anywhere.

Um, we've, we basically do that monthly publication December through June and then bi-monthly from, uh, you know, the remainder of the year. So nine total issues a year. It's a hundred bucks is all. Um, so they get the magazine. We cover all the Western states, the drawing odds, kill percentages, best units. And then we consult with guys all the time. And so I'm still coming into the office, doing all that, clearing my desk and taking care of guys. And, uh, anyway, and then we, of course, you know, we have a licensed application service and we fill out guys applications and, and choose the units in a lot of cases where, you know, they trust us to kind of get hunts that they want. Of course, a lot goes into the relationship with our clients and knowing what they want and, and choosing units that best suit their needs and, and trying to get them tags. Our, our goal is to get tags.

Like you need to get your clients tags. Um, it's not a good business not to have tags, not to have any hunting opportunities. But having said that, the last thing you want is to send guys on hunts that may, you know, may or may not suit their needs. And maybe, you know, not everybody's, not everybody's needs are mine and not everybody's needs are yours and, and everybody's unique and different. And that's what we, that's what we do. And so by researching the magazine, Adam and I, Adam Bronson and I, you know, do, do 95 or plus percentage of all the writing of the publication and the research. We also actually put our hands on every application for all of our licensed app clients as well. And so not only, you know, we're doing all the research for our members and for the magazine and for ourselves, but then it also translates into choosing units for people that are actually

having to supply them. And so anyway, you can kind of check that out on epicoutdoors.com, you know, epicoutdoors.com or feel free to give us a holler. So there's not many guys like you and Adam that have as much experience anyway. And in the, in the tag game and just the time spent in all the units. I mean, that's, that's definitely, I think where your advantage is is you've, you've put the time in on all these units and you know, these hunts inside and out. Yeah. And to say that, you know, we've been to every unit, that's just not true. We, we haven't, but we've spent a lot of time, even in Oregon, you know, I've been in juniper, when aha steens, you know, trout creeks. I mean, we spent a lot of time. I've hunted blacktails over in the Applegate, but just, you know, we've hunted mountain goat. We both killed a lot of sheep. I killed a sheep in your state there, Oregon.

And of course my desert here in Utah and we're applying and gaining points for ourselves all across the West. And so anyway, you know, it's not just deer, although I love deer, you know, I do love deer and there's no question. Definitely hunted a lot of elk, killed some great bulls, sheep and mountain goat here in Utah. And just experienced a lot of different things, hunted coos, deer and whatnot. And so, and Adam, you know, he's a sheep guru and a very prominent outfitter here in Utah and prides himself on, on finding and killing and harvesting some great sheep. And as well as he's got the mule deer bug, he's, he's guided some clients to some amazing critters. He's killed 200 inch deer himself and, and elk hunts, you know, killed a 360 bull in Colorado last year. Just a wide variety between all of us.

You know, we got Chris here in the office, John in the office, Jeff, John, who's my brother-in-law is now working for us full time. You know, he's killed sheep and deer and elk and, and experienced a lot of things. And so we just got such a great crew here at Epic Outdoors. They couldn't be more proud of the team we've got assembled here. Well, awesome. And you got a podcast out. I mean, you guys got your own podcast. Anybody who likes this podcast, definitely go check out Jason's podcast, the Epic Outdoors podcast. Um, that's on iTunes, it's on everywhere else as well. Yeah. Stitcher, iTunes, Google play. I mean, you know, you can find us a lot of different places. You can play it right off our website, epicoutdoors.com. But, you know, and I appreciate that, you know, Cody, we've, you know, I, I sure think a lot of you have, um, you know, we've talked about sponsoring your podcast.

Of course, we give you a lot of, uh, props for what you've built and, uh, the guests you have on. And, and I learned from these guys. I love it. I mean, I'm out there, I drove, quote, I don't know, 600 miles yesterday. And, uh, what else you do? You're going to listen to podcasts, you know, that satellite radio, that's pretty much all there is for me. So, you know, I got a lot of respect. I love it. I got a lot of respect for a guy that's at your level and is still willing to learn. Um, I've talked to a lot of guys and I, you know, I've noticed that there's, there's guys that are still learning and then there's guys that think they know it all. Um, and so I got a lot of respect for a guy that's at your level and is still learning the game. Well, and I, I appreciate that. And it's, um, you know, I don't, I don't know, I don't know level wise, you know, I don't ever think of it that way.

I just put in a lot of time and I'm so fortunate. I've got the, I've got the, all the stars are aligned. I've, I've been fortunate to, to make a living at it. So I get to, you know, spend a lot more time doing it. Um, and a lot of it came from, you know, having a loving wife that lets me pursue my passion. And, you know, when I had a normal job that was, you know, had hours and comp time and vacation and we didn't take vacations. I, I guided clients on my vacation time and she allowed that. And, uh, and so I got to learn even when I didn't get to hunt for, for say, you know, get paid to be in the hills. I still got to be in the hills with any and all extra time to learn and keep learning and keep developing that passion and whatnot. And so there's been a lot of, just a lot of stars to align to, to be able to put these deer on the ground.

I don't know that it's a level as much as just time, dedication, the stars aligning tags and, uh, being able to adapt, like do, do some of the things we're talking about with attention to detail and being able to adapt. And am I the world's greatest tracker? No, do I love, I love tracking. No, I do love it. But, and I've got some crazy stories on track and maybe we can talk about some other day, but, you know, but just, you know, and researching like I'm, I'm paid to research. So, you know, I know the best tags to get and I know how to get them and I'm kind of on that cutting edge and, and that's what we do for our clients too, you know? And so I'm, I'm in Colorado, I'm in Idaho. I'm in, I'm not just hunting the desert right here by my house, although I get to scout it all summer. Or I'm doing all these other things too.

And, and I've killed great bucks in other places that didn't take two months of scouting, you know? But having the right tag helps and, and capitalizing on your points and, and putting your name in a lot of different lotteries and, and planning on some hunts depending on the points you have and whatnot. And developing that five, 10, 15 year plan is just imperative. Even mule deer require 20 year plans. Now you just don't get some of these tags, but once every 20 plus years. Um, but having said that, are you waiting? Are you just going to wait for that tag? Are you going to go hunt? No, Cody, you're, you're hunting this October and you're going to hunt next October. Yep. But, but while you're doing that, you might be preparing for an Arizona hunt someday. You might be preparing for that Colorado hunt once every three years, you know, four years, five years, whatever. Very true. Very true.

It's having a little bit of everything. Yeah. We're very successful. Keep doing what you're doing, Jason. And I appreciate your time so much. We're definitely going to have to do a podcast on tracking. That's something that I want to learn more about. Um, and that would be awesome. So keep doing what you're doing, Jason and appreciate everything. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. Yeah. Let's, let's do it and, uh, appreciate the friendship. All right, everybody. It's time to do a little giveaway here on the Epic Outdoors podcast. This particular podcast, we're going to give away a membership to the Epic Outdoors magazine. Of course, this is nine issues a year. Um, talks about all the Western states, drawing odds, kill percentages, best units, as well as consulting whenever you need it. Um, you know, and a lot of other things that we offer.

So $100 value, it's what we charge for a yearly subscription. We're going to give that away. Uh, to enter to win, you'd go to epicoutdoors.com backslash podcast. On the right hand side, there's a podcast giveaway entry form. On the podcast code, let's do Epic Magazine. E-P-I-C-M-A-G-A-Z-I-N-E. Enter your name, email, phone number, hit submit. One entry per guy. We'll give it away here in a week. It'll be good for 12 months from the time we give it away. So anyway, we're excited to do that. Of course, we want to thank Epic Outdoors for sponsoring this giveaway. And, uh, anyway, we're excited to have one of you out there as a free member. We sure appreciate you listening. Thank you.