EP 47: Hunting Giant Bulls with Hoby Gartner

You know, we've had a couple of close encounters. Your area has some of the biggest bulls in the state. I think a little bit of sacrifice right now in the long run, you'd get back in time. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter here with the Epic Outdoors podcast. We've got a special guest on with us here today from Idaho. It would be Hobie Gartner of Deadline Outfitters. Super good dude, good friend of ours. Before we jump into that, I want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring this podcast. They're doing a lot of great things, have a lot of great gear. I've dealt with them in the past in many different aspects of the hunting industry, including Ridge Rupert TV show, which is now on YouTube. And you can go check out some of those new episodes we've got on YouTube versus the Outdoor Channel. We used to be on the Outdoor Channel. It's now moved to YouTube. Anyway, I want to thank them and their support with us on the podcast as well as in the magazine. And just appreciate their support for Epic Outdoors.

If any of you guys have any ideas of people you'd like to hear from, email us. You can email me at jason at epicoutdoors.com. Give us some suggestions of people you'd like to hear from. We're always looking for good dudes in the industry to talk to. On this podcast, we're going to give away a Ridge Reaper Extreme Modular Jacket. It's a $300 value, made by Under Armour. And to register to get this jacket, you'd go under our podcast link under epicoutdoors.com. Go into the podcast link and in the code spot, put EPIC JACKET. Type in EPIC JACKET. You'll be in the drawing for a free jacket. $300 value. It's a Ridge Reaper Extreme Modular. It's one of my favorites. Lightweight, super warm. It's an awesome piece. While we're entering the winter, well worth getting in there and getting in on that giveaway. We've also got a YouTube video out featuring the Ridge Reaper Extreme Modular Jacket.

Go to our YouTube channel. Be the EPIC Outdoors YouTube channel. Watch that video and you can see all the ins and outs about this particular jacket we're giving away. Hello?

Hey, what are you doing? Oh, I don't got much going on today. I got to do just a bunch of get ready for my lion hunts coming up. So I'm making sure all my snowmills are running and stuff like that. Well, yeah, I appreciate you spending some time with us today. I just kind of wanted to go over, you know, everything that you do. Kind of tell us a little bit about yourself and how you became kind of the guide that you are. Of course, you're there in southern Idaho. But how did you get to that point? And, you know, a little bit about your childhood growing up and being in the outdoors. Gotcha. Well, you know, I started working for United States Outfitters about 14, I think 14 or 15 years ago for George Tolman. And I dreamed about being a guide since I was probably 9 or 10. And I was lucky enough to know a guy named Daryl Nunez.

And when I was about 18, he told me he'd hook me up with a guy out of New Mexico and went down there when I was 19 and met him. And they let me start working for him when I was 20. I worked for George for about, I think, three years. And he introduced me to a guy named Jeff Burwell. Okay. And he owns Alaska High Peak Adventures. Okay. And he told me that fall that maybe he'd be needing me the next fall in Alaska. He said, I'll call you. And I said, yeah, well, that'd be awesome, but we'll see. And sure enough, he called me in the spring and said he needed me in the fall the next year. And I had to do an apprenticeship with him. And that started my Alaska career. So what does apprenticeship mean? Does that mean packer, like you just pack all the, you're just a freaking strong back? Yeah. You know, basically just kind of learning the ropes and. And abuse you.

You know, kind of have to do stuff. Just abuse you physically. That's right. And we did. You know, the first year I was there, we didn't have enough horses for me and another guy to ride. I walked everywhere, you know, and was happy to do it, too. We walked, walked hundreds of miles that year. In the tundra? Like just out in the tundra? Yeah. Yeah, we were, we were a lot in the tundra, you know, to the bottoms. And then, you know, obviously a lot of shell, shell-hiked peak ridges and, you know, through, through everything. But I think I started that year at 190 pounds and I finished at 162 when I got home. That's unbelievable. Unbelievable. It was. Probably the first time I'd ever got my butt kicked hiking in my life. And I went to Alaska and got schooled for the first year and a half and then I figured it out.

So when you're out there, like, is he telling you, you know, you're going to be a packer, but I want to, I want you to watch the guide. And of course, you're going to learn how to judge these animals. I mean, what kind of, how does he go about doing that? Yeah. So I got to work under some really good guides, especially Jeff himself. And, yeah, I, I just basically paid attention and seen what to do. And, you know, I mean, to me actually, sheep hunting is definitely not the, not the hardest, not the hardest hunt maybe to figure out, you know, come from the top and have your, have your wind right and make sure you're not peaking too high. And the hardest thing I thought for me was judging. Yeah. You know, judging them sheep, there's a lot of things to, to watch for. And I slowly, but surely got pretty dang good at it. But, uh.

You're trying to judge age and age and length and full curl or not. And you're within a half inch or whatever. Exactly. And, you know, to be legal in Alaska is, is full curl or eight years old or double broomed. And, and most of the time when we shot Rams, I made sure it had both of them, two, two out of three, you know. Did you ever, did you ever shoot one? You were kind of half scared to walk up on it. You know what? I knew 110% on every one, but I still beat the hunter there by 20 minutes every time. You know, I mean, you know, I never actually even had one that was close. And I've been pretty fortunate. I've been on, uh, 41 doll sheep hunts and 38 of them we killed on. Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. And, you know, as, when I went to Alaska, the, the dream since a kid was to be a, a brown bear guide. You know, I always thought that would be what I really would live for.

And it turns out, you know, that was probably actually my least favorite to, to guide in Alaska. Of course, the, the 15 seconds of shooting time is, you know, quite the trail of bear hunting. But the setting and waiting for hours on end wasn't always the funnest thing for me. But what, what surprised me became my, probably the, the funnest thing I've ever hunted in my life was the dull sheep. Wow. So I, and go ahead. Well, just, I've just, I got so many questions. So I'm just thinking about these brown bears. I mean, did, did you, how many of those did you guide? How many did you kill? Did you close, close encounters? I mean, any cool stories on that? Yeah. You know, we, we do have some pretty exciting stories. I should have wrote some of these down a little bit more, but you know, I've never kept track of how many brown bear hunts I've been on. Probably around 25.

And I'd say 90% of them were that we killed on. Pretty good. Yeah. I mean, it's, and it's, it's, uh, bears to me are probably the hardest thing out of anything to judge, you know. And, and especially a lot of them big boars, they come out right at night and everything looks bigger in the dark and, you know, a lot of stuff to pay attention to. But, um, you know, we've had a couple of close encounters where, uh, we just about got eight a couple of times. I mean, I think for the first, probably the first seven years I worked there, I used a 338 as a backup gun. Um, and we just about got munched a couple of different times that we ended up killing bears that, you know, uh, that were already wounded and hit that died, you know, 10 feet from us. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So the client wounds a bear and now the apprentice gets to go in first. That's right.

You know, and it's, and it's, it's really, it's really hard to take a client in the, in the field. You never know how somebody is going to react, um, in a, it were scary situations. I mean, I think you'd be the toughest guy in the world and, and still be a little nervous going into the, you know, Southeast Alaska is probably the worst place to wound a bear. There's like a jungle in there, you know, there's blown over trees, roots sticking up all over the place. It's, it's a nightmare to wound a bear through there, but that's the game. And geez, and so, I mean, about getting munched, is that five yard encounters? I mean, 10 yard, 15 yard? Yeah, we, so we, we'd shot a bear, me and my boss actually one time that was, we'd, it'd already been hit by the client two or three times. We'd each shot it once a piece and, um, we ended up shooting in the dark.

You know, we, what, what happened is we, we, the two of us went in there after it had already been hit X amount of times. And, um, I was leading the way most of the time and, uh, we got right to where I thought the bear was going to be. And we're on about a 30 degree angle climbing in there. And, and Jeff jumps in front of me right at the end there. And, um, this bear stands up and he just starts running down the mountain and Jeff held his ground really good. There's not much I could do. It was, it was between two big, huge boulders where he was coming off the, off the mountain. And Jeff shot him about 10 yards from him. And he ended up veering right of us and coming over a cliff. And, you know, when bears are hit, they normally roll really good. And I figured I'd roll right to the bottom.

Well, when he came off that 10 foot cliff, he, uh, he just grabbed all that vegetation right there and held right there. And he was only about seven feet from me. And I had a scope on, so I just pointed the gun center of his back and center of his body there and shot him right through the back. And he rolled all the way to the bottom of the mountain then. And I thought, Oh, there we go. That's the end of it. Well, we got down to the, got down to the alders, big patch alders. And we get down there and I'm listening. I can hear that son of a gun, um, breathing out one lung, going back up the mountain, you know, a little, little farther to the right of us and up higher above us again. And, uh, you know, I, I told my boss, I told Jeff, I said, Hey, uh, he, he's up here. So we start following this.

We're on a ledge and we ended up realizing we're on the same ledge that he was taking the whole time. There's, there's blood going over these rocks. And as we're walking along, you know, Jeff's been blasted so many times. He can't hear that bear breathing, but I can't, I know we're getting close. And now it's, now it's pretty dark. It seems darker than what it is because we're in the trees. Yeah. But, um, you know, we, uh, end up getting, getting in there pretty close. And I want to stop right there and see what's going on. And Jeff says, just a little farther, just a little farther. So we're sitting on about a, there's maybe about a 20 foot cliff above us. We're sitting on about a eight foot ledge. And then there's about 20 feet underneath us, you know, and, and this bear is on this ledge somewhere with us. And we, we, uh, he says, nah, just a little farther.

So we crawl under this, this tree that's growing out of the cliff here and we get on the other side and I tell him this as far as I can go. And I know this bear is just right here. I mean, I'm, I'm talking so quiet. My lips are in his ear, you know? And, uh, anyways, this, I pick up this rock and I, and Jeff holds my gun wearing it on our knees and, and Jeff holds my gun and I throw this rock off this cliff as far as I can. And, and just like I would have imagined happened as soon as that rock hit, that bear came alive and, and he came at us just as hard as he could and made it a God awful roar. And, uh, we ended up shooting three times and, uh, we ended up, he probably died about, you know, eight, eight to nine yards from us. And, uh, it was just dark enough in the trees that that muzzle blast blinded us.

And I couldn't see, I just remember, you know, kind of blinking my eyes a million times trying to, trying to see again. And, uh, you know, all of a sudden I feel my, somebody tugging on the back of my shirt says that that son of a gun ain't dead now. He never will be. We'll come in the morning, you know, and we came back in the morning and he was, he was standing, he was right in front of us. And we just didn't even know it that night, you know, we got out of there and, you know, that was, that was my last real close encounter with the three 38. And, you know, we had two years ago, I had another real close encounter of, uh, we're looking for a wounded bear and bear charges that charged me that wasn't wounded. You know, he'd actually just, I must've just scared him out of his bed and he looked at me and I, I turned around and I already was ready for a wounded bear.

And so I had my scope down on one power and, and, uh, I thought he was going to false charge and he, he went to go right and he faked right. And he just came and I, I shot him, I shot him at 12 feet and he, I shot him with a 458, 500 grain bullet and he stopped right there. Wow. But, uh, I shot him right through the, right through the, right next to the nose, through the jaw and into the shoulder and out the back. And, uh, he just, he rolled to a stop, but that was, uh, that was really close. Holy cow. That's crazy. Yeah. I'd probably like doll sheep hunting too, if I were you.

You know what? Then, then times when you make it through it, there were, there were a lot of fun. I mean, I see how the guys get addicted to that dangerous game. Yeah. Yeah. It's just fun to make it home at the end of it. Yeah. Well, and it makes for a good time with the client too. Something they'll never forget ever. That's right. So, and so, um, and, and you, so you were in Southeast, were you down there by, uh, you know, Sitka or where were you at on that? You know, we were, we're outside of, you know, a little ways. We were actually based out of a place, um, or close to that was, you know, we stayed on about a 50 foot boat and then we take skiffs to the shorelines and hunted like that. And a lot of times just, just waited for it. The bear, big bears traditionally can't come out of the same spot at that time. Uh, you know, to look and, look and breed, look and the mate at that time.

And, um, every year the same spots, big bears come out of it. So it's kind of a waiting game. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. That's awesome. And so then you, and, and so did you do any moose or was it mostly sheep and bear? You know, I did a lot of moose. I probably did somewhere around 20 moose while I was there. Um, and, and moose was a lot of fun. It was only at the end of the season, you know, we'd, we'd already been there for 40 days. So, you know, you're, you're tired by then, but it, it was a fun change. You know, the moose, the moose hunt, at least in Jeff's area was not, um, not probably as hard as a, as a lot of Alaska. You know, he has a really neat setup where we crawl up on the hillside and call and you could see him coming from a long ways away. And, uh, it was, it was a really fun hunt. You know, one, I'd like to go back and do, do myself someday. Yeah. That's great, man.

Well, good. And so over the course of time, how long were you in Alaska? Or did you just guide Alaska while you were there or were you coming down to the lower 48 as well? I was still coming back to the lower 48 for about, uh, about five years there that I was still working for George also on the rest of the season. And, you know, so for, I think for about five years, I had a guide license in seven states. Oh, okay. Cause I know George was, he was everywhere. I mean. He was. Yep. I mean, it was Kansas or New Mexico. I mean, I think their headquarters were in New Mexico. It seemed like, uh, yeah, it's out of Taos there. And I, I did a lot of hunts in the Gila. I guided Arizona. I guided Kansas. I, um, guided Nevada for them. Uh, I, we, we kind of traveled everywhere. I mean, I don't know if you knew this, um, Jason, but you know, my, my wife had cooked

in all my camps since we started since day one. Really? And yeah. So we were, we were a valuable team. You know, we were, it was, they let us go a lot more places cause they needed to cook and they needed to guide and, and we were willing to go wherever, you know, and she was, uh, such a trooper to do it. You know, when she started this, you know, she obviously started it as my dream, but it didn't take too long to turn into hers. You know, she, she loves this. That's awesome. Wow. So how did, well, how did you meet her? Did you meet her in, in, uh, guiding or did you meet her prior to that and introduce her to hunting? Yeah. That's a little more how it went. We've, uh, I've known Thasha since the fifth grade and, uh, we started dating when I, she was 15 and I was 16 and we've been together ever since.

And this year we're celebrating her 15 years being married and yeah, it's been, that's awesome. She's been an amazing asset to, you know, obviously the business, but to my life. I mean, she's, she's been the ticket, you know? Yeah. So let's see, you said about, uh, when you were 20, you kind of started USO ish or whatever 14 years ago. I'm thinking you're around mid thirties then years old. Yeah, I'm 34. I'm just about 35 this next month. Okay. That's what I had you pegged at. Well, good. Um, all right. So, and so how, I guess you started with George, you went up to Alaska and then you're still working with George. So you're just gaining a ton of experience, lower 48, seven states, seven different guide licenses. I mean, you're just, you just, I mean, jumped in both feet. That's it full time. I tried. That's, that's what I've done. Don't get me wrong.

A couple of them winners, I framed and did whatever to pay the bills and make ends meet. But yeah, but you know, this was, this was the main goal, you know, and I felt very blessed. I worked for two great outfitters and they both had a lot difference, um, of opinion or strategy, how to do stuff. Um, but it was, it was great to see both sides and learn to pile from them. You know what I mean? Um, you know, George is actually a really hardcore hunter. I mean, I will hand it to him and he, it probably took about a year or two before I even met George. I worked under another guy named, named Travis was my main boss. And, but it wasn't until I met George that I realized what a hardcore hunter he was. I mean, George, a hunt as hard as anybody, you know, and, uh, I sure he never misses a week of guiding personally himself, you know, and I always respected a lot of that from him

and he did a lot of things, right? I mean, I, I learned a lot of good stuff from George and, you know, working for under Jeff Burwell, it's, you know, Jeff's the guy that will, um, spare no expense, whatever it takes to have a successful trip. And, um, you know, that taught, taught me a lot. I mean, and he'll, he'll do, I mean, we break an Argo and, uh, the hunt, hunt's going obviously the next day he, he'd fly back, uh, to Anchorage, buy a brand new Argo and he'll be there in the morning by the time we get there. I mean, just whatever it takes. And, and that, that sure taught me a lot. I mean, it always comes back when you do it, do it the right way. Well, and that's the best thing about being an outfitter guide is justifying all the purchases of hunting gear. You know what I mean? That's right. You're nonstop justifying everything.

Everything you buy is, is fun and exciting yet you're using it for business. So it's awesome. Yeah. Sometimes I have a hard time explaining that to the wife, you know, she gets tired of hearing it. It's for the business. It's for the business. Yeah, that's right. Well, she made money cooking, you know, it's like buying a new pot, honey. Just like buying a new pot. That's all it is. Oh, that's right. Of course they don't believe that. She finally got me back. She has her fancy trailer and her, whatever she wants cooking, she don't even ask. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. Well, good. Well, that's an interesting side of George. I know, you know, of course there's varying opinions. He's made quite the waves in the hunting world. Of course he was big. And anytime you're big, everybody knows you and they form an opinion whether they know you or not.

And, you know, I know, I've known that personally, you know, and dealt with some of that. But interesting because he made quite a change. He did, he was, he got into the outfitting business and became giant, you know, before there were giant outfitters. I mean, he was kind of a pioneer in the industry. And then, of course, he, you know, was famous for fighting for non-resident, you know, hunting rights, so to speak, and, and took on Arizona Game and Fish and a few other states. And, and some of that seemed to backlash. People didn't, you know, jump behind him as much as I thought they would or whatever. But, but anyway, interesting to see from a sub guide, quote, sub guide perspective on George and his hunting and his hunting abilities and his, and his enthusiasm for it. Oh, he is. He absolutely lives for it.

I mean, you know, George asked me one time, you know, he, he don't really get the sheep hunting like I do, you know, and, and Alaska, you know, he, he told me one time, he says, I cannot believe you're hunting sheep there instead of guiding every single week for elk. I mean, he, he loves, he loves what he does. And, and he's very, he's very good about it. But the, the, the passion is there. I mean, I, I, I developed a whole new respect for George hunting around him. And I didn't hunt around him a lot. I probably spent all six or eight weeks maybe with him, different, different weeks hunting. But it was always the same guy that showed up. I mean, the first guy to leave and the last guy to get back every single day. He put everything out there every day. Yeah. Well, he ran a bit. He was quite a businessman, you know, so interesting stuff.

And then Jeff, you still stay in contact with Jeff and he's still cranking? Oh, yeah. And I still work for Jeff this fall again. You know, we did, I did three doll sheeps with him this year. And, and, you know, we, I go to Reno and meet up with him and help him on his booth every year. And, you know, I'm just, not just a boss. He's a, he's a great friend of mine. That's awesome. All right. And so then bring us to, bring us to Idaho and, and Nevada. How did, how did that come about? So, you know, I guess the big thing I looked around and I, I, I just a little bit of the personality that I, I, I really do look around and see how everybody's doing stuff. And I realized that I could take something from each one of them guys I work for and I could do it, I could do it just as good or better in some ways, you know? Sure.

And I wouldn't necessarily say I'd done it better, but, um, but better for what you like, you know, better for you. Exactly. What, what worked good for us and what was important to me, you know, I mean, one thing that was important to me is we kept this, this business family based. I mean, my kids are in camp every single week. My wife's the cook every single week. And, uh, we, we make that very important in our camp every week. And, and, you know, some guys may not, uh, care for that, but them guys don't hunt with me. Um, I, I have a lot of guys that hunt with me every single year, but that's why they're there. They love that. The whole family's there. They love, they love how passionate we all are about it. And, uh, you know, most of these guys are texting me and calling me throughout the whole year, seeing how everything's going.

And, and that, that's what, that's what I wanted in this business. I mean, obviously if you're doing this business for money, you probably should have been in another business, you know, you're doing it for the experience in life. Yes. Yep. Yep. But, um, you know, I, I was, I was very, very fortunate. I found, uh, I found out if we had my favorite unit close to my hometown. I, I grew up in, in Filer, Idaho there. And unit 54 was one of the units that I always hunted with my grapple as a kid. And I personally never drew a tag, but he drew one often. And I went with him, um, hunted with him until he was 83 is when he drew the last tag up there. And, um, I didn't even know who had that unit. And I, I approached the guy that had it. I knew he didn't, he didn't really, um, push that outfitting business real hard. So I thought maybe I'd have a chance of purchasing it.

And, um, the guy was, I caught him on the right day. I mean, I believe in fate and this was definitely fate. He thought he had a heart attack the week before. And, you know, he says, you know, Hobie, I, I do think I'm to the age that I'm ready to let somebody else do this. And maybe I need to do something different. And he ended up agreeing to sell it to me. And we made the purchase and everything actually in the long run, he had more tests done and he didn't have a heart attack. It was something else. And, uh, I don't think if he would have known that at the time that he just told me that business. So I'm pretty thankful for that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's, uh, you know, sometimes things, it's just timing is everything, no matter what business you're in. And that's, you know, that's been proven true a hundred different times.

Houston, even the people that I know, but what I think's interesting is, is what's a little different. Well, I mean, same in some States, but is that Idaho has basically concessions similar to Alaska where you can buy in and, and somewhat not compete with very many other outfitters. Whereas like, like, like for example, here in Utah, anybody can get a forest use permit. It's getting a little bit tougher. Anybody can get a BLM permit. Anybody can get a BLM permit and you can guide in any unit you want in the state. Whereas Idaho, that's not the case. Tell me a little bit about that and we'll expound upon that. No, that's exactly right. I actually, so unit 54, I have the forest service and the BLM permit for all guiding in the unit. Nobody can compete. You have a monopoly in 54. That's right. Yep. And the good thing that I will say about it is I believe that it, it, it probably in the

interest of the public and everybody else that doing that keeps a guy very honest. I mean, if you're out there and you're not being a good representative of the outfitter, as far as ethics and, um, attitude and everything out there, small little towns, um, you're never going to last. You know, so I, I believe that when they can only point the finger at one outfitter instead of 30 outfitters, um, it makes a guy do the right things. And, and, you know, we really, really try to be as good as we can. Um, I feel like it's a privilege to have that permit and we go out of our way to make sure that we're, we're doing the right things on the mountains. If that's, um, not, not trying to rule the area or, um, you know, if we see people with bull and tires or whatever, you know, out of gas, where we just do whatever we can to help them.

And I think that you get that in a, in a permit kind of like what we have, you know, Nevada is a little different across the border. And I, I do guide there also. Um, I kind of choose the select tons that I like to do. It's a little more competitive and, and a lot more people racing the bulls. And, um, it's just been nice to not have quite that. And, you know, it also, Idaho to me is pretty drama free. I mean, we, uh, we don't really have very many problems ever on the mountain, you know, and I, a lot of that is you got, so you got, you know, people are drawn tags and there's different people drawn tags every single year. Uh, there's no point system in Idaho. And so you've got guys that are, it's just a random draw. Uh, and so there is no drama because you don't have guys that have specific bulls thereafter and competing with you. You don't have other outfitters competing with you.

You don't have clients every single year with one outfitter and then competing against clients of another outfitter. I can totally see that how, how that's drama free and some not maybe totally stress free because just guiding in and of itself is kind of stressful, but, but I can totally see what an awesome opportunity that is having a concession like that. It is. It's, that's, that's the most enjoyable part about it. Um, you know, I mean, we, we're not a huge outfit, you know, I take 20 to 35 hunters, maybe a year between there. And, um, so we're not so big that we're ever dominating an area. I mean, I think a lot of residents don't even hardly know that we exist up there. And that was kind of the idea, uh, just to kind of blend in and we're taking a few nice animals out of there a year and, uh, just, just enjoying it more than, um, trying to, trying to do absolutely as much as we can.

Yeah. Now, now, now when you're going back to what you say, it makes you be honest and take care of your clients. It almost would feel the opposite to me. No, you can't be touched. There's no other competition. I can charge you what I want. I can do what I want. I mean, is there some of that on, in some of the different concessions or could game and fish or outfitter association boot you and take your permit from you? No, they, they, you'd have to really mess up for him to take the permit and you could definitely take advantage of the situation if you wanted to. Yeah. Um, but that, that ain't us at all. I mean, we, you know, talking to a guy on the phone, um, I'm more about the experience that I'm going to have with that client than I am how many, how much I can get out of them. Yeah. You know, I mean, I talked to a guy that, that's been working hard his whole life to come on one

of these hunts and you know what, he's $500 for making the cut. You know, I'm, I'm pretty good about working the deals. You know, I want to see them guys be out here and them guys are so enjoyable. I mean, they come out here and they've never been in the West before. And the whole time they're, all they're doing is looking around. I mean, sometimes I got to tell them, Hey, we're looking at a big deer here and they're, they're looking at looking at the country and they just can't believe it. And, you know, that's, I appreciate that a lot because I think us living in the West, we, we forget how lucky we are to be out here every day. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, I try, you know, when I'm in the office doing a podcast, I don't forget about it because I'd rather be on the Hills right now.

I mean, I've had, I've had a, you know, we just got out of the, just got out of the Hills and now we've been in the office and, and I'm already wanting to be out in the Hills. You know, I'm in the office so I can be in the Hills. Yeah. So yeah, I try not to forget about it. And usually they get about a six month reminder, you know, when we're out, when we're sitting here in the office, but, but we are researching the things we love to do and continuing to make plans and help people apply and whatnot. But one thing I think is interesting, you know, and, and, and it's, I don't know how long ago, how long ago did you, did you pick up this concession?

2009. 2009. Okay. Just so happens your area has some of the biggest bulls in the state for both moose and elk. And I just find that interesting. You, you, I mean, if it were me, I would want your concession because you've, you're a little bit removed from the wolves. You've got giant bulls. You've got both giant bull elk, giant shirus moose and, and, and the potential for state record both in both categories. Plus you're coming on to some big deer. You're in the right location. I know you've, you've had bigger deer in the past and, and there's great potential and, and, and maybe you're seeing a little bit of shift into some better quality than you've had in recent years. But tell me a little bit about that, what it feels like. I mean, it's just gotta be a great feeling to be guiding some of the best critters that's taken in Idaho. It has. It's been, it's been an absolute dream, really.

You know, my, my lifetime dream was to, uh, to guide a 400 inch bull, especially in the state of Idaho. And, uh, you know, so far we, we've done it. We've done it twice. It's all actually now, but we've, we've knocked on the door several times and, you know, the first, I'll never forget the first, uh, 400 bull that we knocked down. We were hunting a muzzleloader, um, hunt with, uh, Shelly Sayer. Yeah. And she made a tremendous shot and we, we, we were hunting an animal that, you know, I never actually told any of my guides what we were hunting until the day before, because I just knew it was something, it was something special. Yeah. And I, I'd stayed on that. I found that, that bull the first time when I, I was taking my, my, my little girl cadence out with me. And I think she was three years old at the time. And I remember I said, I said, that's, that's a big one right there.

And I let her look through the scope and she was having a hard time obviously seeing it. Finally, she's like, I see it. She said, I said, that's a big one. And she said, yeah, that's a baby. You know, she showed me with her fingers how tall it is in the scope, you know, she's three inches tall. Yeah. And I said, no, that's a big one. She said, it's a baby. You know, I, I just laughed. But you know, that, that whole thing was, I'm not going to lie. It stressed me out. I wanted that bull so bad. Um, and everything didn't go perfect. You get it, but we finally ended up with it. And like I say, Shelly did a great job and that bull ended up going, uh, four 16. And, uh, it was to walk up to that bull is at that time, the best moment of my guiding career. For sure. Wow. So four, is it 416 inch gross or? Yes. Gross. Gross. I'm a, I'm a gross guy. I, uh, you know, I always say nets are for fish.

Yeah. So what, uh, how many points did it have? Six. You know, it had, it was a six by seven mainframe with a cheater, you know, and actually this year it's on the front of front cover of King King's calendar, which was pretty, pretty neat, but yeah. It's awesome. An Idaho public land bull on the cover of, you know, King's calendars. It's pretty impressive. I mean, usually you're, you know, you got the Arizona, of course, Utah has been known for years where, you know, we've seen better years than we've got now, but in, in New Mexico, um, you know, I mean, usually you've got these kinds of bulls coming out of those places and Idaho bull, that's pretty, pretty impressive.

Well, we, we thought so for sure. And we still do, you know, we were fortunate this year, we killed a couple of really nice bulls again. We took a three 81 and then we took another four Oh four this year. And, uh, I, you know, I'd actually found at least one that was quite a bit better. And, uh, he, he slipped away from us. Actually, I hadn't seen him since, uh, the day, I guess, two days before that muzzleloader hunt opened this year. And I'm pretty sure he didn't get taken. I think he just, uh, did what he, what he always does. He slipped away. Yeah. That's crazy. So are you, uh, have you been finding since 2009 when you, when you started in there, I mean, are the bulls getting better or was it great when you first walked in or how, how's the, I know their management, I've talked to game and fish. They wanted to give a bunch more tags.

The public wouldn't let them through surveys and whatnot. They figured that out. And they're, they're under utilizing that herd. Their, their bulls are dying of old age in there and it's killing game and fish. But of course the hunters want it. They like to have a place they can go and, and see giants. That's right. And that's very weird for Idaho to think, think that. I mean, I, I'd actually talked to the Nevada or sorry, I know fishing game about it. And, you know, they, they reminded me that this unit is not all about me. And I, I, I said, I, I know this, but I talked to a lot of people. I said, you know, do the survey. And they did the survey and, and they came back and said, uh, unbelievable, but you know, you were right. And they, they do feel this way. And that I know has always been an opportunity state.

And so for, for the public to be 90% on one side that we want to grow 400 inch bulls, it was amazing to hear him say that. Wow. And, and, and, and, you know, as far as what the quality is doing now, I'm telling you, Jason, we're just getting warmed up. I mean, Idaho has done such a fantastic job, um, managing these bulls. And, you know, we've had, we had a good fire. I can't remember if it was seven, seven or eight years ago, but we had a big fire that, that took out about one third of this unit. Um, and that's just made it tremendous elk country. Um, I mean, it's just growing back really, really well, big tall grass. We've had some great years the last couple of years as far as springs. And, um, I, I really think, you know, I look around after the, all the hunts got done here the last two weeks and pretty excited about what's left over. That's awesome.

So, um, you know, and what I think is awesome too, of course, Idaho is known for wolves and, and it's really hurt game and fish a bit, you know, especially people's mentality of the elk herds and, and big game herds as a whole, just because of the, of the wolf population. But I think, I mean, you're out of the, of the bulk of that. I mean, you're way South and, and I think that's quite a blessing for you, your guide business, you know, the area, the animals, everything. No, it really is. You know, we hear the talk of seeing, you know, people seeing wolves. And I think in, in the whole time that we've been out there, we might've seen one suspicious track ever. And for all we know is somebody left one of their sheepdogs behind, you know? Yeah. Um, we've, we've never seen one up there and, uh, you know, we're hoping to keep it that way.

I know we've got some pretty ambitious wolf hunters around this area. And I think if it starts to be a problem, I think, I think there'll be a lot of people to try to fix that problem. Yeah, for sure. Tell me, tell me about some of these giant bull moose. Like, um, again, I got so many questions, but you know, um, were they always giants? Have they just been coming on? And then, you know, how you're hunting them, trail camera in them, how you scout them? I mean, just tell me about them a little bit. I know you've got absolute monster bulls. Of course, you're following bulls from year to year. Just start talking to me about some of those bulls. Yeah. You know, we only had an idea really of how many bulls we had by what I kept track of in the winter. And a lot of times I weren't seeing the bulls as much as I was seeing their tracks when

I was lion hunting the whole time and I, I started trying to pay attention of, you know, we got this many bulls over here. We got this many bulls here. And, and, you know, we were seeing them a little bit more than anything. We were just seeing a lot of tracks. Yeah. And so we've been talking with the fishing game and the commissioners a little bit about what we have up there. And, you know, the funny thing about moose, I think is, is boy, they live in the thick stuff. They eat in this thick stuff and they're just, if they don't want to be seen, they don't have to be. Yeah. And we really had no idea of how many moose we really had until we, you know, until we started really hunting them. And I do do a lot of trail cams. I'd say that's probably half of our success in there, but we spent a lot of time on the

mountain just looking because some of them water holes that they're, they're going to, it's not as, it's not an everyday. I mean, they still, there are some moose that I call potato chip bulls that go to the same spot every day. Yeah. But then you got the other ones that are more like a mule deer and they don't make any sense what they do. And, uh, one of them bulls that were like that is the one that Karen Moss shot with us last year. Yeah. And that, that moose just, I, I told, I told Karen before she got here, I said, this thing is not predictable in two and a half months. I've seen it six times on the hoof. And a lot of times I looked for that thing once a day when I was out there. So probably at least four to five days a week, I look for them, you know, spend an evening or a morning looking for them.

And, and if it wasn't for trail cams, there's a lot of times that I would have thought that thing left the country or died of old age, you know, and just, it, it was really tough. And I think, I think Doyle was kind of doubting, doubting that's really how it is. And, and, uh, you know, when they showed up and found out that exactly what that bull was like, um, you know, Doyle, so that's just about as hard as, as shooting any big mule deer that he's ever hunted, you know? And, and there, there's a lot of residents around here that don't really think this hunting is quite like that. You know, they think it's, uh, it's just a bull, you know, moose hunt. That's, that's easy. But some of these moose, they just don't show their shows. You know, there's another bull that we'd almost shot the first year of this open. And we ended up shooting another one that looked exactly like him.

I'm almost positive. They're twins. And I call that bull, the twin, just, there's a little reference on them. And, uh, the other bull that we ended up shooting, I thought was just a touch, touch better. Ended up being this, the state record, um, that Brad Visser killed with us. And, um, you know, this bull now we've only seen three times on the hoof, four times now on the hoof in two years that the twin. And, you know, I, I think that bull is just starting to maybe go downhill. He'll, he's still very, very impressive looking, but he's, he's starting to round off and not have as many points now, but still, uh, you know, a 50 plus inch moose that has, uh, 15 inch wide paddles and 40 inches long. I mean, he's really impressive looking huge front. Wow. That is unbelievable. So, um, I hate to deviate from, let's just talk about, um, how big this bull is.

Do you feel like he's better than the state record? Do you feel like he's better than Brad's bull or, or what's your opinion there? I mean, obviously they're twins. Yeah. Close to it. I think, I think that bull this year still would have beat, beat Brad bull. I think that bull was a, was a, probably a net mid one 85. Um, but you know, to tell you the truth, I have three or four bulls like that right now. Um, and they haven't been easy to keep track of. I mean, they've, uh, some of them have disappeared for a long time and, you know, some of them didn't show up until even after the season this year. And, um, we have some huge potential. I mean, uh, you know, I've hunted with some guys that have hunted moose all over the place. Uh, one of them guys, it's an absolutely fantastic hunter is Dirk Eddie. Yeah.

And as Dirk came and he, he drew a, drew a tag a few years ago and he hunted with us and he'd come scouting with, with me several different times. And he kept telling me, cause he's a, he's a moose fanatic. You know, this guy's hunted moose everywhere. He just, he just loves them. Yeah. And he kept reminding me every day of how spoiled we are to talk like a one 55, one 60 bulls, just a small bull, you know, just full. And, uh, we, we don't know any better. This is the only place that we've got a hunch Irish mix, you know? Yeah. And we, we are very fortunate to see what we, we've been seeing. And I, I don't see it going away anytime soon. And I think the way that the fishing game is managing it right now, um, we should be shooting big moose for, for however long, you know, it, it, it's one thing about it. Everything changes.

And you, and we always thought that about Utah bulls that our big, big bulls would never go away. And, and they did, you know, and so just, I'm just saying, maybe it won't, maybe you'll be the exception, but just, you just really need to enjoy it. You know, you know, exactly. Um, one thing I do worry about is just like any area, you have your strong genetics and you have your weak genetics. We do have some weak genetics in here. You know, um, we have a lot of, uh, bulls that have them fronts that just have like a one dagger, you know, even though them can turn into huge looking bulls as far as scoring, them are not scoring bulls. They, you know, we have a bull right now that's probably 55 inches wide that just has daggers on the front and he's a huge, awesome bull, but he's just not going to score. And the, the, the bad thing about that is you have a hard time getting a guy to shoot

one of them bulls or want to shoot one of them bulls. And that bull is going to be the bull that does a lot of the breeding, you know? And so that is one of the ways I think that you start to lose your overall good genetics. What's an old bull? Like what's their lifespan? You know, them, them bulls can live to be 20 years old. I think a lot of these old bulls that were, I think I'm, I'm guessing I turned the teeth in and stuff last year. Um, and the last couple of years on these moves, just for our own personal records, just to know what we're, what we're doing. But I suspect some of these bulls are, are, are 12 to 15 years old. Wow. In their prime. Exactly. But you know what I'm finding and we're really keeping track. I do files on all of these bulls to just try to see year after year. But the goofy thing about bulls is they, uh, these moves is they take a long time to get big.

And when they decide to fall off, they just drop off. They can turn into a four year old looking bull in just a matter of a couple of years once they peak out. Wow. And, uh, that's all, that's not me reading the book. That's just my own personal experience finding on these bulls right here, because some of, sometimes they're almost not recognizable the next year. And it's such a shame sometimes because it's like, oh, we missed that one. We missed him. And now he'll, he'll never, he'll never be big again, you know? Um, but to have a, a high end area, you're going to have some of them bulls that just die of old age, you know? And to a point that's kind of neat too. It's really neat. I mean, I want to hunt where deer die of old age. I want to hunt where elk die of old age. I mean, that's, that means you're, you're in the right area. You're going to kill a monster. Yeah.

If you've got feed genetics and they're dying of old age, I mean, what else can you expect? And with your burn and the way that unit's built and your predation, you know, limited predation for them, like it's, it's awesome. I mean, you know, so you miss a few, but you're still, you've got other ones coming up through the ranks that you're getting to hunt. You know, like you said, you got three or four that are giant that are alive. Yeah. So, you know, that's a, it's been a, it's been a lot of fun to learn about these. You know, we, we hunted them in Alaska. We, we're not always necessarily actually, for the most part, we're not hunting score in Alaska. We're, we're hunting big bulls, you know, big fronts wide, you know, is it over 60? Is it 65? 65, you know, I wasn't really ever wrapped up in score there. It's just big is big.

And here that's been, that's been probably one of the funner things for me. I love scoring these bulls on the, on the huff. I figured out some ways that, you know, I've been maybe lucky, but I've got within an inch of majority of the bulls that we've killed scoring them. And that, that's been fun. I mean, I'm, I'm a little obsessive about things and, and some of them bulls I've probably scored 200, 300 times, different pitchers, you know. Well, yeah. And a normal guy that tells me that I'm like, the only way that's happening is you're tranquilizing bulls and scoring them.

But I believe you. So that brings me to the next section. I want to talk about how to score them, what you're looking at. I have no idea. I'm looking at moose. I mean, I, I, I have no idea. You can tell one's a big one, but tell me about the, the score system. And how you're judging them. How are you judging these bulls? That obviously, I mean, that close takes a train down. You've got to put your hands on a lot of them, but then, you know, what you're saying, a 50 inch with a 15 inch wide paddle and 40 inches long, like, just tell me what makes up a big bull and how you're scoring them. Well, the biggest thing on that I, that I think on a bull moose is, is the length, just like a main beam or anything else is, is you got to, you're the highest palmation in a, in a straight line all the way to the, the front, the fronts and the farthest palmation on there.

So if you have a bull that has big, long points, but it don't palmate very far on his front paddles, he, uh, he's not going to, not going to score as good. You want that palmation to go out in front of him as far as he can. Plus on the back, you can have them big, high points, but if they're not palmated all the way to the top, you're going to lose there too. And, and, um, then you got, you got the width of the paddle and you go center mass to center mass mass around the back of the paddle. And then you get your base measurement and for each side, and then you get, or your mass measurement, excuse me. And then you get a point for each point longer than it is wide. It has to be over an inch long, but it has to be longer than it is wide. And each one of them is just one point. So even if you have really, really long points, that can be an impressive look, but you're,

you're not going to get the score for it. Yeah. You want the palmation and one inch points. You'd rather have that palmation go all the way up through and connect those points. That's right. Exactly. And there are certain bulls I call cheater bulls. You know, they don't always have to be the biggest looking moose to score big. You know, sometimes you get where they just palmate way out there and they're just a double. But if it's palmated out there, they, um, you still get that length all the way to there. Yeah. You know, one of the ways that I, I've been as close as I have been is I'm, I'm taking similar bulls. I have a lot of sheds I got from Alaska plus some that I've picked up here. And if I don't have a bull that I think looks like it, I'll go down to our local horn buyer at Ron Holtz at Bonafide Antlers.

And, um, he'll, he'll let me go through all his stuff and I'll find a bull that I think a lot like him. But cause you gotta, you, you know, I know. You gotta put your hands on them. You gotta put, you gotta put the tape on them. That's right. I mean, some of them, if you're questioning at all, but I mean, I have a pretty good, you know, I, I know, you know, the distance between the burrs on a moose is, is almost always seven inches. And so I can scale them out. So I'll take a picture of a bull, a video or whatever, still shot it. And then I'm going to get it as squared up as I can, make sure we got the right angle on it. And then I'm going to do a, uh, actually scale it based off in between his horns. Um, so I got my seven inches there. So I'll take it up and I'll, I'll say I measure 10 inches across the paddle, but I know that

he has a pretty big bit, uh, dish in his, in the bend of his, um, horn. And I'll go find a bull that's similar to that. And I'll say, oh, well, he gained in that dish, he gained two inches. So now that's a 12 inch wide paddle. Um, and then I'll, I'll, I'll go on the mass. The mass is almost, almost always seven inches, seven and a quarter, maybe seven and a half on the mass. So the mass is not a big factor. And, um, obviously the points are the easiest ones to count, um, as far as the tines. And then I'm just going to do that, that length. And the length is sometimes the hardest because the, how, how a bull dishes in the bottom, you, you pick up so much, let's say as a, as a line of sight, that bull has his head down and I can see from the top of his palmation to the bottom of his palmation, I'm, I'm getting 36 inches. Well, or, or probably more realistic would be 28 inches.

Well, a lot of times on that bend, I'm going to pick up 12, 12 inches on the bend. Wow. And, uh, depending how far he comes out and how curly is, I mean, it makes a huge difference of the, if he's a straight up and down paddle or if he has a huge bend in it, you know, so all them things got to take into play. And the easiest thing that I got is, is a lot of, a lot of sheds that I can go, go mess with till I got it figured out. Jeez. That's crazy. It's, it's quite in depth. Um, and you're lucky enough to be able to put your hands on some of these bulls. You just got to put your hands on a lot of good ones and, and then, and then figure it out like you're doing what's your, like, what's your goals for this? Like for me, I'd want to, I mean, you know, I mean, I'd, I'd want to produce the world record. I'd probably, you know what I mean?

And you can, like, it's obvious you've got that potential possibly at some point. Of course, it's going to take the right bull at the right feed, the right year of his life and the right moisture year and the right genetics. But, um, like, what's your goals? What are your goals for, for especially elk and moose in your country? You know, I think for the moose are, we have a very good, um, chance of, of taking the world record muzzleloader bull. Um, that's, that's a record that, um, don't quote me on this exactly, but I think it's, I think it's one 84 and, um, I think five 16th. And I, we've already beat that bull once before we just shot it with a rifle instead of a muzzleloader. Yeah. Yeah. And we would, we would already own that record right now if we would have been able to do that at that one, but there'll be another, there'll be another chance.

You know, at the time I might've been just a touch bummed, you know, because, uh, you know, as a, as an outfitter, you gotta, you gotta know that your chances of touching a world record is, yeah. It is. Very rare. Slim to none. Yep. It is. Yep. And, and I, I thought about that a lot at that time. Um, I'm not, I'm not at all about record kind of guy, but on the other hand, it would be really neat to be a part of one. Yeah. No question. I really think we got a great chance. I think I need a guy that's, um, very serious muzzleloader hunter and that, that is willing to pass some of these, um, great bulls because, uh, it, it's not quite as easy as I think a lot of people would think, you know, you have a 180 bull that walks in front of you. I mean, the thing is just amazing. I mean, especially when you think we're, we're in Idaho hunting these moves.

I mean, I remember when we first started shooting, we shot two of the first year, we actually shot them about 15 minutes timeframe apart from each other. And they were the first two moves to ever come out of that unit. And it was, it was, it was amazing feeling. But as I sent them out to a lot of my friends, um, and past clients, you know, they, they barely responded. Oh, neat, neat, neat. Well, they all thought we were in Alaska, you know, and once the word got out that that was Idaho moose, you know, it was a different response, you know, and, uh, you know, that's, that's just been such a, such a fun thing to be, uh, be a part of, you know, and, and, and a lot of these guys have shot these moves with us. They just couldn't be more appreciative. And, uh, you know, this has almost been a, just the ultimate dream for the majority of these guys that shot these big bulls with us.

That's awesome. You know, we've, we've, as far as the elk goes, I, I think we have, um, I think the, it's, it's endless possibilities that can happen on the elk. It still takes the perfect bull, the perfect genetics. Um, as you know, that there was a huge bull that was a gross score or four 22 straight six that got killed out of my unit a couple of years ago. We didn't, we didn't know about four 16 or four 17 or something net. Yes. It was absolutely unbelievable. And you know, the truth is I, I had pictures of that bull that was sent to me and you know what, he was so massive and so evenly spread all the way across. I knew that bull was well over 400, but to tell you that I thought that bull was four 22 gross, I never in a million years, but. The, it had some amazing things going for it. It had a 16 inch main beans, but the main thing is every point was just crazy long.

And he, like you say, he was so uniform that it was hard to tell that he was quite that big, you know? Well, and he, I, if I'm not mistaken, he's the world record, uh, typical archery bull, isn't he? I, I, I don't know if that got finally in there or not. You know, he, he was, he was broke. Yeah. Um, they did find that point. And I don't know if that actually made it into, um, Pope and young for sure, but I think it is an SCI. That's what's crazy. I mean, he, I know he broke off the back end of his, after his sword time and the, and the, and the guy, we both know him goes back in and finds it, tells everybody he's going to find it. And he does. Yeah. And, and, and, and, and, and, you know, that, that, that individual, that individual is a unique guy, but you know, I have a text on my phone that says earlier that day, probably where was the last place that you knew of him.

And, uh, you know, I didn't even have time to respond. I was actually hunting that day. And I, I got back and, and 45 minutes after he sends me that text, he shows me the horn. It's unbelievable. How do you find a horn like that in 45 minutes? Only that lucky guy would ever do that. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. There are some people that have questioned if that was the right fit or the right point. Well, let me tell you, that bowl is so big. It was the right point. Yeah. It's a perfect fit. It's undeniably the, the, the exact fit, you know? It's. And, uh, yeah, you know, I guess you lucky you found it, you know, I mean, I might've made buttons out of it if I would have found it. No, you wouldn't. No, I did. Nice handles. Um, tell me, all right. Tell me about some of the mule there. I know you've got some good mule there, uh, opportunities there.

And I just want to briefly go over those. I know, obviously you're some, sometimes when I talk to you, you're, oh, just, you know, there's better potential and you're not, and your unit's not meeting that, um, you know, due to management and whatnot, but let's talk about that. Well, I think, I think there's, there's quite a few things going on here. I mean, pressure, like everywhere else, and it's not always just hunting pressure, but you know, this unit 54 is a very sought after place for recreational, um, biking and everything else. And I think pressure in general takes a huge, uh, toll on the, on the deer doing well. I mean, if they have an area where they're not bumped every day, I think they would drive a little bit more even, um, no, not, not talking about the, the hunters, but the hunters are definitely a, one of the bigger issues we have.

I think that the elk has taken a, a toll on some of the areas. I mean, you know, I, I believe that them, this is my own personal belief, but I, I believe the elk don't mind and the deer don't mind being around the elk. But when it's that rut time, it, them deer just ain't going to put up with the noise and the, and the running around all day. They just get out of, out of dodge, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think there's just been so many things to happen here. I, I, I do believe that we need to cut some tags. I think that, you know, unit 54 is a deer factory. It's, it's an absolutely amazing deer place, but we got to get the more mature bucks back in the unit. You know, I just finished up on a, um, late deer, deer tag. And, you know, we did find quite a few 180 deer, you know, but we were looking for the next step up.

We were looking for a 190 and, um, it just, it wasn't, it wasn't in the cards for us. This year. I mean, we shot, we shot a nice deer, but not exactly what we were looking for. And which really kind of surprised me because, you know, the October season, we took some really nice deer this year. Actually we took a 184 buck and then we took a 189 buck. And I really figured this late season that we would have a slam dunk 190 plus. And, um, that, that wasn't the case this year. Yeah. Well, I know an Adam's boy drew a tag and went up there and, and hunted some of that country and, and it was a lot of fun, but same kind of thing. Never did see a giant, but didn't, didn't spend a lot of time in there. And of course, didn't know it, doesn't know it like you guys do, but, uh, but a lot of fun, you know, and plenty of game and whatnot. So.

Well, and that's one thing about this unit is a really fun unit, uh, to hunt it, you know, good and bad has a lot of roads in it, but, uh, it's not a, a real, real physical hard hunt, but it's, uh, it, it still has a lot of deer in the unit. It would take nothing to bring this, this unit back. Um, I just think it needs a little, little different management. Um, and I don't think it has to be forever. I think a little bit of sacrifice right now in the long run, you'd get back 10 times, you know? Um, and I think we're, I think we're, um, a couple of years maybe away from seeing, seeing a serious change. I know the fishing game have put out a lot of, um, a lot of surveys to possibly change maybe the way that they, that they do some of this. If we're going to turn more into trophy hunting, I think that Idaho is becoming more of a trophy

state than, than the fishing game is recognizing right now. But I do think that's close to changing. Yeah. Well, it's hard when you're, you know, the budgets are tough and, uh, you know, to cut back on tags, which is a revenue generator. And I mean, there's just, of course, that's a whole nother podcast. So, you know, I know there's ways around that and to fix that, they've just got to be willing to change and they're not, you know, it seems like. But I do think that we probably have the right commissioners in there right now. We have, we have some really awesome guys that are commissioners right now for Idaho. And we have had the last few years. Yeah. And I, the nice thing is these guys are hunters. They, they care. They're not one-sided. Um, they're putting a lot of time in. And I think what we've been seeing with these guys right now is, um, they want to make a

difference, they want to make a change and they're, they're willing to, um, you know, there, there's no money to be made as a commissioner. So some of these guys that are, are doing what they do and putting so much time in it, my hat's off to them because it's a lot of time that these guys are spending and they're doing it for the whole purpose of just trying to make Idaho better. So I think that's pretty amazing. It is. It's awesome. Um, well tell me, I mean, is there, uh, changing gears a little bit? I mean, your most memorable hunt or the favorite personal hunt that you've, that you've been on?

You know, I would say my most, oh, my, maybe my most favorite hunt is it would probably be between two. I, I'll, I'll give you two quick stories here. You know, I, I, I wasn't real close with my dad when I was younger and, uh, we never really did much together. And when I was 15, he took me, took me hunting. I drew an elk tag in unit 49 and it was obviously an over the counter deer tag. And so we had a hundred deer at the same time. And, you know, we, uh, probably had the best time that I can ever remember the best time I'd ever spent with them. And, and, uh, you know, to share some of them experiencing it. And I shot a, I shot a rag horn. I was 15 years old and sure. And at the time I thought I, I thought I shot the world record, you know, kind of, kind of, you know, but what a great time it was. And, you know, to me, that's, that's what the hunting's always been about.

It's been about experience and relationships out in the field and, and just, uh, yeah, be able to enjoy the outdoors or to somebody that you, that you care about. So, you know, that hunt meant a lot to me. And, you know, another one, my, my wife drew a tag, she, she drew unit 54 for elk. Oh, I don't know what it's been. Well, I think it's been about seven, seven, eight, seven or eight years ago. And, uh, you know, she drew that tag as a 3% draw. And, you know, I've been 16 years without drawing a tag. So I might've been a little bitter, but we were still pretty, pretty excited about it. Not going to kick her out of a cook tent though. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. But, you know, the first day out, we found 27 bulls and this is, you know, we've been to Africa before and she'd hunted a few animals there, but this was obviously a different, different hunt for her.

And, uh, we really hunted hard. And like I say, we found 27 bulls that first morning. We found a bull that was between, uh, 316, 365. And I kind of left it up to her if she wanted to shoot it. And, you know, I, I kind of wanted her to shoot it, but on the other hand, I, I did want to keep hunting, you know, and, um, you know, she, she, she, she said to me, I said, it's up to you. And she says, you know, if I, I'm going to pass them. And if I ended up killing a 320 bull in the last day, well, so be it. And you know what, that's what ended up happening. We killed a 319 bull, uh, oh, about five days to the last day. But, you know, we hunted some great bulls in between. Um, he was actually five months pregnant at the time. And I found a bull right on the border. That was about, uh, I knew he was over 380 and he was only about a mile from the Nevada border.

And we, we had about 15 minutes of light lap. I said, all we got to do is run down this hill and catch him when it's coming, coming across the saddle. And, you know, we had a little bit of problems getting pregnant for about five years. And she looked at me and she says, I ain't falling for no elk, you know, and I was trying to be good. I was trying to be good. And I just gritted my teeth. I said, oh, all right, we'll, uh, we'll come back tomorrow. She ended up with a cold and was, was, didn't want to risk, you know, being sick with being pregnant. And, and, uh, we didn't get a gut, get out there for about seven days. She was sick and opening day of Nevada season, they killed that bull on the line and it was 383. Oh, but, but that's how it goes. I mean, it gives us something to talk about. I remind her every once in a while about it. Yeah. Well, you know what, what an experience.

Yeah, it's an awesome experience. And there's some things in life that's just more important than a bull, you know? You know what? And that was, you know, put score to the side just for a minute. You know, that bull, I've never seen a hunter more proud of the shot that she made right then. And she did it right. And it was a different feeling for her than on our Africa trip. And, you know, she realized that how hard that she worked for it and what it took to get it done. And, and, you know, we, we obviously quartered it up, packed it out of there, just the two of us. And it was just such an experience for us. I mean, like I say, me and Tasha shared our lives together on everything. And it's fun to share, for her to share some of them passions with me, you know? So that's, that's probably my favorite hunt. That's awesome, man. Well, that's awesome. Well, we're kind of out of time.

I just want to thank you for spending some time with me. You know, I've got a lot of respect for you, Hobie. You've, you've, you've, I don't know, I don't want to say revolutionized, but you've sure changed a lot of people's outlook and hunting in Idaho for the better. You're, you're doing it right. You're, you're killing some giants and, and your hunters are happy. I hear, I hear from them. I talk to them all the time. And, and of course I visit with you quite regular and, and I've learned a lot from you. So I just want to tell you how much we appreciate you. And, and it's an honor to visit with you on our podcast. No, it's awesome. I sure appreciate you inviting me to do this. And, you know, I sure have a lot of respect for you guys over there too at Epic. So thanks. You bet. So anyway, any, any of our listeners want to learn more about Hobie, it's Hobie Gartner

there, Deadline Outfitters. I believe it's DeadlineOutfitters.com. Isn't it, Hobie?

Yes. Okay. So DeadlineOutfitters.com. I had you pulled up here a minute ago, but it talks about all the different hunts and whatnot. So anyway, appreciate you. Good luck for the rest of the year. Of course, it's about over for you. I know it's kind of over for, for most of it, except for a little bit of lion hunting and, and, uh, and different things, but, uh, good luck and everything else you got going. Well, thanks a lot for that. Appreciate that, Jason. All right. Talk to you later. Okay. Bye. Here at Epic Outdoors, we produce a hunting magazine, nine issues a year. The first six issues are state by state research driven, uh, issues, breaking down the states, the drawing odds, kill percentages, best places to go, whatever your goals are for that state, whether you should even apply for that state or not. Coming from January through June, we break those down.

The rest of the year we go every other month. Very informative magazine, a hundred dollars a year to get you that magazine, as well as the ability to call and consult with us consultants, develop a strategy, bounce ideas off us, things like that. Yeah. So, so with this magazine, you know, it just is covers Western big game hunting. That's what we specialize in. That's what we stick to. So the Western States, Canada, Alaska, Mexico from a big game hunting perspective. So a hundred bucks a year. And, uh, and it should be everything to do with Western big game hunting. We also offer a full service license application service. If you're too busy, you find yourself missing deadlines or you travel a lot with your work, missing deadlines in some cases will put you years behind. Um, drawing a certain tag that you're after. We offer for a maximum of $500.

We'll handle all of your Western state applications. We'll incorporate the information you give us. You can be as interactive with us in picking your units as you want. Or you give us a criteria. We can pick your units, match the weapon type, species, states, all those types of things that you're looking for. We do that for a lot of guys. We help them draw a lot of tags. If you find yourself, like I said, too much, uh, going on in your life, whether it be business or travel or whatever, you miss deadlines, consider calling us for your license application service, uh, uh, needs and be glad to help you out. With our license application service, of course, one of the big things besides just, uh, applying and, and submitting your, your license applications is the people doing it. So Adam and I, we touch all the applications and we actually choose the units for you depending

on what you're looking for. And that's a big deal. We've done this for many, many years as well as for ourselves. And we've hunted all the Western states. We have quite a bit of experiences with everybody here in the office. And this is what we've done for a living for a lot of years. And so anyway, we feel like we offer, um, some of the most knowledgeable consultants and, uh, and the ability to really choose accurately what you're looking for. So you don't, you know, waste your points or waste your money and especially waste your time in places that don't really suit you. And so anyway, for like Adam said, for maximum 500, we, we can do anything and everything. Everything that pertains to applying for Western big game.