EP 55: Keys to Hunting Success with Randy Ulmer

Take a spot, use the right pen, make sure that you know the yardage. I shot and the deer blows out of there. You've waited your whole life for this moment. Anything to do with Western Big Game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter here and Adam Bronson with the Epic Outdoors podcast. We got a special guest lined up for you today. It's a guy that we've had a lot of requests for us to interview on our podcast. And it's a guy that I have a ton of respect for. I've known him since basically I started hunting. Same with Adam. Anyway, we're way excited to jump into this podcast with him. It's Randy Ulmer. As well as killing many giant bucks, bulls, and everything else he hunts, Randy was inducted into the Bowhunters Hall of Fame approximately 20 years ago. And as recently as 2016, he was inducted to the Archery Hall of Fame. So, I mean, the credentials behind Randy are endless. And I know there's a lot that we can learn from him. Of course, you know, we could probably have a 10-hour podcast with Randy and still not,

and still be taking away things that would help us in our hunting careers. And so we're super excited to get into it with him. But before we get started, I do want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring these podcasts, as well as some of the different projects we've got going on. They're a super great company. They've supported us for years and years, and we appreciate them. And this is the time of year that all the different conventions are going to be taking place. People will be gathering, prepping for next year's hunts. Here in Utah, we have the Hunt Expo. It's one of our biggest conventions of the year. It's a time where it seems like the entire state of Utah gets together, as well as surrounding states, and just visits about hunting. A lot of booths there, a lot of different tags to buy. There'll be tags to apply for.

There's a bunch of different conservation tags that are available for $5 a piece, and you can come and you've got to validate them in person, and then it's a good excuse to come around and visit with everybody at the booth. Speaking of booths, we're going to be at booth number 2845. So the Hunt Expo will take place February 8th through the 11th, 2018, and on February 10th, there at the Hunt Expo, there is also a meeting with the Full Curl Society, February 10th, and they will be giving away 10 sheep hunts fully paid, so the winner's not even needing to put up a small fee. There'll be three stone sheep hunts, five doll sheep hunts given away, as well as a desert sheep hunt and a Rocky Mountain Bighorn. And so, anyway, it's a great opportunity for guys to apply, basically, for hunts that otherwise cost lots of thousands of dollars. And you can sign up.

You can get tickets at www.fullcurl.org. And a great opportunity for guys to win some hunts. There'll be 10 hunt winners in the room February 10th during the Western Hunting and Conservation Expo. As we get started here, I'm going to let Randy talk. We got him on the line with us, but, again, I do want to introduce him a little bit further. Randy is somebody that's killed, I don't know how many deer, over 200-inch type deer with a bow, but it's numerous, maybe as many or more than anybody else I know. And he's a class act. He's known in the industry for being just one of the best archers to have ever lived. So, as well as Mueller, he's killed amazing elk. As we all know, we've seen giant 400-inch bulls that Randy's knocked down, seems like, year after year after year. So, anyway, really appreciate you, Randy, being on with us and taking a little time with us here today.

Well, thanks for having me. I'm honored to be with you guys. You bet. So, maybe tell us a little bit about yourself and kind of how you got started into this hunting career that you've got going. And, of course, all your shooting competitions. And I just, I don't even know where to start. There's so much depth behind Randy Elmer. Well, Jason, I think I started out a lot like you. We came from, well, I came from a really small town in eastern Arizona, Taylor, which no one knows where it is. But a very small community and, you know, grew up kind of out in the country and had my first bow when I was six years old and just shot that and shot that and shot that hunting rabbits and birds and doves and quail and that sort of thing. And it just progressed. I came from a hunting family. We hunted every fall, mainly for me. We never really were trophy hunters at all.

And my brother and I started bow hunting in our teens and, you know, just had a great time with it. And so, bow hunting has always been my passion. My dad didn't really bow hunt at all. We all gun hunted. And when Rusty and I, Rusty actually picked up the compound first and started hunting. And then I started the next year and basically been going ever since. And bow hunting is what started my target career, actually. I joined a bow hunting league. And Rusty and I, Rusty's my brother. And we had just shot together. We'd never, we'd been self-taught, shot together for years. And really didn't know if we were good or bad. And then when we joined the bow hunting league, we found out we were actually pretty good. So, we started shooting competition and it kind of just went from there. And so, just self-taught pretty much? Or is it something, I mean, did you have lessons from anybody?

Any books back then that you guys read about, about how to hold this thing or let the string go? Actually, completely self-taught. We went into a little store and bought, well, he bought a compound. Then I bought a compound the next year. And that year, we upgraded arrows. We were very poor back then. And so, we bought one dozen 2219 arrows, which are heavy as rocks. And we just practiced in the sand dune all that summer. And by hunting season, you know, they started out at, I can't remember, their black or dark olive color. And by the time hunting season rolled around, they were completely silver from the point to the fletching because of being shot through the sand so much. We'd worn off the anodizing. And that first hunting trip we did, you could shoot cow elk back then. And, oh, by the first evening, I'd shot all six of my arrows.

Gone back and found a couple of them straight over my knee, shot them again, and I hadn't hit anything. And that evening, I was out of arrows, and I was begging Rusty to give me an arrow. He said, I'll give you some tomorrow, but why don't you come hunting with me? So, anyway, he shot a bull that evening at about 35 yards, hit him way back. And this bull wandered over about 30 yards and just fell over. He had hit the descending aorta way back. And we both looked at the bull and go, oh, man, this is magical. We've never seen an elk drop with a rifle that quickly. So, anyway, we obviously were hooked. The arrows were probably doing 150 feet a second, or I don't even know back then. Yeah, maybe. And, you know, those bows, well, it was a rainbow. We really couldn't shoot over 30 yards because there was no range finders. You just had to dance. We were new to it.

So, it was just, I mean, it was so much fun. It was just so much fun being out there chasing. Were you guys in high school? Was that roughly the age, 16? No, we were just out of high school. We were in college. I got you. Not today or anything, Randy, but, like, what year are we roughly talking? We're roughly talking about the late 70s. Okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Now, you've been at this a while.

I mean, just. I don't like the way you laugh when you say that. No, no. I just mean, like, it just shows how much depth. Like, you've seen everything. You've seen everything from the old Easton game getters. Clear back. You know, I had a Carroll bow back in the early 80s. Me, too. I shot Carrolls, too, when I was, you know, 10 or 12. Well, you know, if you still had that, it'd be worse than that. I know. And you know what? I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. And they actually, you know, and I love the bow. But, I mean, as far as once technology started changing and I, and it was, I believe it was like hand-painted. It had bright, bright green aspen leaves. You'd brightest green aspen leaves paint from top to bottom. Like, that's all I remember about it. I remember mine had a matte black riser, but the limbs were black, but gloss, the highest

gloss, like the worst bow hunting bow look you could have. It was a great looking bow. And I shot, you know, shot, you know, first deer and elk with that bow. It was, you know, I'd tape it up and all that, but I just, I was wondering when I went hunting. Why did they make this solid gloss, you know? Yeah. That equipment, it was good because it made you hunt a long time before you killed anything. Oh, yeah. So, you got your bow hunting skills down. Oh, yeah. There's no doubt about that. The bending the arrows over the knees and, oh, that's close enough for, you know, what I'm hunting. We've all been there, done that back in that day. And so, did you, as you were going forward in your early youth, I mean, were you still trying the gun or using the gun a bit? I mean, you know, I know your dad, you mentioned your dad was kind of a rifle hunter, but you

guys, did you guys hunt with a rifle also or just pretty much just be addicted to the bow? I kind of switched over fairly quickly. And that's not to say I didn't use a rifle, but I think mostly, for the most part, by the time the early 80s rolled around, I was pretty much a dedicated bow hunter. Now, Rusty, my brother, is a coos deer fanatic. And, you know, to quote him, he said he would use hand grenades on coos deer if he could because they're so hard to kill or find and kill. No question. He still hunts. The only thing I think he hunts with a rifle is coos deer, but he pretty much hunts coos deer every year with a rifle. But no, I transitioned fairly quickly. Now, my family, like my wife and one of my sons, still hunt with rifles. I got nothing against it. I actually, it's kind of a nice change because, you know, you guys have both been there.

You guys have been bow hunters, each of you, for at least 20 years. So, you know that, you know, you bow hunt long enough, you get so frustrated. You know, just like, man, if I had a rifle, you'd be dead. And you go out there and your kid or your wife or your buddy has a rifle and you're going, oh, this is going to be so sweet. We'll be home by dinner. Well, and I've had, you know, I actually had a guy that professes to just be a bow hunter, strictly a bow hunter. And he came up to me and I'd killed a wolf in Idaho. And he's like, you know, I'd love to kill a wolf. Like, I would love to kill a wolf. But he said, I just resolved that I, to myself, that I'm not going to kill one because I can't kill one with a bow. And I just thought, man, kind of a bummer, you know, like go kill one with a rifle or what, you know what I mean?

If you want a wolf to, but to box yourself into that corner, you know. Well, you know, it's, and it's, it's, you know, sometimes I think, because I've analyzed that myself because I think my brother's going to Mexico to hunt coos deer. And in that country, it's pretty much impossible to kill one with a bow. And I thought, you know, it would be fun just to go down there and hunt with a gun. And then I analyzed, what's my reasoning behind not doing that? And I think as much as I hate to admit this, I think as a bow hunter, you know, and especially if you've, if you've had just a little bit of notoriety or all your buddies know that you're, Hey, I'm strictly a bow hunter. I really think it's peer pressure. I think why, if I want to go shoot a coos deer in Mexico with a gun and go have fun with my brother, why don't I?

And, and, and I think, you know what, really it's because I'm afraid of what other people will say. And at my age, that's a terrible, that's a terrible thing to say. Randy, if you want to shoot a gun, if you want to shoot a gun, you should go shoot one. Cause quite frankly, everybody knows you're the number one archer that's been raised in the last 30 years. Like it's not a competition. It couldn't taint it. I don't, I don't. If you've listened to a podcast have not said what I just said to you. And it's, and it's true. Your, your success. Uh, yeah, I mean, it's proof of, of what you've done. And so anyway, I just think if you want to shoot, you should be able to, but I, I totally know what you mean. We all do things out of peer pressure. Sometimes we're shooting long range. Um, even if you're shooting long range archery, you might not profess to do it, but I know

Randy, I know you can shoot 150 yards. You, but you might not come out and print and say, I shoot 150 yards. You know what I'm saying? You're willing to shoot 150 yards. But as far as the targets you, you, there's no, I mean, you have to be able to shoot that far. Cause you're, you're, you look at the competitions you're winning and, and what you're doing. And, and so those are fine lines that you might not talk about, you know? Well, you know, here's the deal. And, and, and most people assume that I shoot at, at things at long yardage because, you know, because of my competition background. Here's the deal though. And you guys know it's cause you guys are both very accomplished bow hunters. Um, yeah. Say, say, you know, I, and I do shoot at 120 yards at home. Yes. However, and you know what? A hundred, well at 120 yards, I'm very proficient.

However, in a hunting situation, there are so many things that can go wrong. That deer can take a step. There can be a gust of wind at 120 yards. I don't care how good you are. Your chances of wounding an animal are extremely high. And I spend, oh, this summer I spent 45 days scouting for deer. And so I find, I found two really big bucks in my scouting. And, uh, and, and that's pretty much the same every year. And so I've got this deer that I've invested in both of those deer I'd, I'd followed. Now, now one of those deer, uh, a really good friend of mine in Colorado, Steve, uh, Wintry had found the year before on a sheep hunt. Uh, but anyway, that that's neither here nor there. I spent 45 days scouting. So I find this one deer, follow that deer, been following those two deers, those two deer for two years. Okay. So am I going to go out there and shoot at that deer at 80 yards?

And even at 80 yards is, uh, I consider when I shoot a deer, I want, I want at least a 90% chance that not a mall, I'm going to hit him, but I'm going to kill him and I'm going to kill him now because otherwise if the worst thing I wound him, he's gone. Or if I scare him, you know how these eight year old bucks are, um, you scare them, you know, it's going to be another four days before you see them. So my limit, I have a very hard limit and that's 60 yards. Cause if I don't get within 60 yards and he's standing broadside, there's no wind. Um, I'm not going to shoot because I, I've got so many days invested in that deer. You'll just wait another day or two or five until it comes together. And you know, you know, one thing when I was younger, I always thought, well, this is the only time I'm ever going to see that buck.

Cause he's so brilliant because he's got big antlers that I'm never going to find him again. I need to do something now. And as you know, both of you know, that deer is not going to disappear. You know, he may disappear for a day, sometimes two or three of this deer I shot this year disappeared for four days, but they're going to come back. You're going to find him. If you're the only one hunting him, you probably are going to get another. If you've got 45 days invested in him, why not invest another four? Yeah. So anyway, I got off tangent a little bit there. No, that's perfect. I've got real strong feelings on that. Well, I think it's awesome. And I think it, you know, it's, um, just a test, a testament to your ethics and, and whatnot and why you've been so successful in doing what you're doing. It's not a testament to my ethics. It's a testament to my greed over big bucks.

Well, it's kind of reversed probably when a lot of people think most people would think when you get within 80, you better let one fly. Like that's your only chance of killing a deer where you have a different philosophy of, you know, as long as you're, you know, that you're the one hunting the deer and it's you and him, so to speak. If it's not right, back out, let it, let it try to happen tomorrow. The next day, eventually you're going to get your break and your wheelhouse in that 90% zone, as you called it. And he's going to, he's going to be in trouble. And on this tangent, when I went off on that, you were capable of shooting that far, anybody, most bow hunters that are capable of shooting that far, tell people that I'm capable of shooting that far. That's all they do. People assume that they're going to shoot that far.

And, uh, and if there's anybody that's capable of shooting long distance, it'd be you. And, and yet, um, you know, a lot of times you're not willing to do, to, to take those shots. And I think it's awesome. I think it's great. So, so Randy, after, I guess, through your college years and whatnot, I know you're a veterinarian. I know you, uh, uh, that's what you've done, I guess, for practice and profession and whatnot. Did you stick around? You've been in Arizona most of your life and, and that kind of, I mean, I know you're there now still. So did you always kind of, after college, come back, stick there and that's where you've based your roots? Yeah. After, after veterinary school, I went and did, uh, some work at Texas A&M, uh, you know, postdoctoral work there. Um, and then I came back here and started practice.

Uh, and yeah, so Arizona, my family's been in Arizona here for, I don't know, four or five generations on both sides. So this is kind of our home and, uh, you know, Arizona, a lot like Southern Utah, Arizona's got a lot to offer you. Oh yeah. You know, I feel blessed. Of course, everyone's kind of, uh, partial to their home, but I feel really blessed here. We just have so many outdoor opportunities. Uh, you know, like you guys do in Utah, there's just, you can hunt so many species and you can just go out and have fun. And, you know, we have, we have a nice year cause we can, well, you guys are kind of the same way right there. You can be down in St. George where it's warm all winter. Um, and, and, uh, you know, in two hours you can be up at 10,000 feet and we're the same way here. Big variety. That's right.

Well, it doesn't hurt that, you know, you got giant bucks and bulls and rams and everything else in your home state and, uh, you know, drawing tags, you know, no waiting periods on your help tags and all those little things are nice benefits if you're a serious trophy hunter and then you live right next to states like, you know, Utah, you know, New Mexico, Nevada, which we all know you've spent a lot of time in and yeah, nothing wrong with where living in the, in the Southwest. Well, no, you know, within 10 hours of me, I can hunt in New Mexico. I can hunt in Nevada. I can hunt in Utah. I can hunt in Colorado. And, and, uh, it's, you know, it really isn't, isn't bad at all. And, you know, I couldn't have picked now there may be a better time in the future, but I doubt it, but I couldn't have picked a better time to have, you know, if, if you

want to be a bow hunter, uh, to have, uh, been born and raised in Arizona, which, you know, up until 10, 15 years ago was the best state to kill big bull. Now you guys have kind of took that, uh, crown for, for the last 10 years, but, but really, you know, uh, you couldn't have lived in a better place to have opportunities at truly giant bulls than, than having, uh, you know, been raised in Arizona. Yeah, there's no question. And, uh, and, and still, even though, you know, we do have some good animals here, we, it feels like a once in a lifetime tag to be able to hunt some of our units. And so Adam and I, and everybody else that lives in the state have, have a tendency to be looking across the border a little bit and really, you know, trying to get tags in Arizona, trying to get tags in Nevada or going into Mexico. And, and so that, that is, what's nice about being centrally located.

You get to look around, but you know, and guys like you have, have spent your time out scouting and you've got a lot of opportunity. It just feels like you got a lot of opportunities in your home state to be able to draw fairly regular, even, even the easier to draw units have giant bull potential for guys like you that are putting in their time. Oh yeah. A couple of, I mean, you talk about what they call limited opportunity areas. You know, if you want to go into one of those areas and you know, well, and you're willing to spend, you know, three or four weeks in there, there are some giant bulls. Yeah. And now we, our, our game and fish department has, has started managing a little bit more for opportunity. Well, a whole lot more for opportunity. So it isn't as good as it was even five years ago. And especially as good as it was 10 years ago and 20 years ago, as you guys well know,

well, you guys keep killing big bulls in New Mexico. I don't know how you're doing it, but, uh, New Mexico, New Mexico. With rifles. Well, archery a little bit too. Yeah. Yeah. That is one way I've limited myself, but no, but you guys kill, you know, I mean, and other people kill some big bulls still in New Mexico, but 20 years ago, I mean, you guys remember, uh, there were just really good bulls over there and it wasn't that hard to get a tag. And of course they've changed their draw system as you guys well know. But so it's almost impossible for a non-resident to get a tag, you know, unless you buy that landowner tag, but there's, they've, I think they've kind of overdone that long landowner tag and the system. Cause it seems like there's too many, but anyway, it doesn't seem like quality is there like it used to be, but in Arizona, you know, if you're, if you're not particular and, you

know, I've kind of got a different philosophy and you guys are probably, well, you're always five steps ahead of me, but some of these units that people, okay, 15, 20 years ago, people would, uh, would, uh, uh, you know, just draw a tag and go on for the opening weekend and then come back on the second weekend. And that was it. Well, now it's so hard to get a tag and, and all these trophy hunters put in for this specific units, you know, nine, 10, three C one, whatever. And, um, they, they hunt the whole season. Yeah. All of them hunt the whole season. Yes. And they're all looking for a trophy bull. So my, where I'm going with this is some of the lesser units, you know, the unit four or five, six, sevens, uh, eight, you know, they don't get pounded by the trophy hunters. They're just the guy that wants to get drawn every three or four years. Yeah.

And you know, there are some monster bulls in those units because they're not hammered as hard by the guys that really know what they're doing. Well, and so anyway, you can draw other tags that were you, uh, we'll look at, uh, didn't, didn't, didn't you go down Adam this year or was it last year? This year I hunted for 15 minutes, unfortunately. It was all. You know, well that, that, that shows you how good your state is on air, but that really pisses me off. Well, Hey, it's after some of these years I've been through, I, I took that and ran as that bull was coming in, basically trying to run me over. It was almost self-defense. I just said. I'm probably not supposed to say what unit, but didn't you, weren't you 27? 27. Yeah. It was like a gift the whole time. My son was 16 or 15. I took him down there. We hunted the solid two weeks and never saw a bull as, as big as one.

Well, we finally did on the last day and, and we ran two miles and he actually killed it at seven yards. But my point is with his bow, but my point is we worked our butts off in that unit and you stroll up and, and the elk probably thought, Oh geez, that's Adam Bronson. No. I better just go, I just better go commit suicide. Yeah. Whatever he did. I'm glad it happened. Yeah. It was, it was, I've never had something like that happen to me. You know, I'd been down there scouting for, you know, a week or so prior to that and got the lay of the land, but just one of those, if you do it long enough, something like that is going to more or less jump in the back of your pickup and say, I'm going. Oh yeah. Just like that, whatever, that 90 inch antelope jumped in your back of your truck. Yeah. I don't know. That's a good point. That was with a rifle. Randy, where are you coming up with these?

Don't do that. That was a rifle. I had a rifle, you know, that's cheating. Remember? That was a, yeah, that was a special bow. That was a rifle, but. The long bow. But he, you know, that 27 has gotten better with the burn and everything else that's going on there. You know. Oh my gosh. Well, it, it, uh, you know, if I, and I think I know probably the general vicinity of where you hunted just because of, of your description. I mean, I grew up right there. That's where I grew up. Um, and, uh, you know, the, the elk have, have kind of moved down and around and into all that country. And everyone wants to hunt up in the, you know, in the aspens and the, and the fir trees and, and, you know, you drop off a little bit and you get away from the people and, and, uh, that burn went all the way down there. And that feed is just fantastic.

And, and I, I'm sure you put, well, no, you were only there for 15 minutes. You should see some of the coos deer in that country. Trust me. I saw a couple. I'm going back. He sent a video clip and I'm like, really? I'm like, look what I said. And then the, here's the thing about it was when I was down there scouting. So it would have been early September, the over the counter archery hunt was on. And I hear I, the first animal I had in my 15s, there's this coos deer. And I'm like, okay, I should have got a deer tag because the hunt is on. You can run up to spring or grab one. And I thought, you know, I've only killed two of those in my life with long range rifles. What are the odds I'm even going to, yeah, I'm kidding myself. Let's just keep looking for elk. You know, that's what I told myself. Oh my gosh. Well, you know, the interesting thing is that's where I grew up hunting mule deer.

And when I was a kid, and there was a lot of mule deer. And when I was a kid, you shoot a 160 buck. That was a big buck. That burn comes through. And all of a sudden, there are 180, 190 inch bucks running around in that burn. It is unbelievable. We've seen it. We've seen a few trail camera pictures. Well, and then, you know, you've seen it, I'm sure, Randy, in all your other states. You know, whether it be Utah or Nevada. I mean, you get some of these wild forks and fowls in two to five years after. When that feed's just enough mature, man. It's rare that a burn doesn't produce big animals. It's rare. Well, you know, that's why in June I'm out there throwing matches. You are not. I'm just chatting. But, you know, it doesn't really hurt. Well, it does hurt your feelings, especially if homes are involved or timbers involved.

But that juniper country in Nevada, it doesn't hurt my feelings a lot. Let it all go. To hear about a burn over there. The juniper country swallowed up so many big deer that we never see again. And I just, I don't have any affection for junipers. No. None. That's right. Well, let's talk about Randy. And Adam, we're the hosts of this. I don't understand why Randy's putting you on the spot talking about it.

Yeah. Let's talk about some of your giant bulls, Randy. They talk about certain kinds of envy. Right. Right. Whatever. I see you guys' picture and I get antler envy. Well, it's like we all are. I mean, Bronson shot a stone sheep. I don't know when you shot that. It wasn't that long ago, I don't think. That was a rifle. That thing was a hog. That was again with a rifle, Randy. You probably got one of those just like it with a bow. I don't care if it was with a howitzer. We need to give Randy a long-range rifle and make him go with us. We need to break that myth of, hey, I can't do this because of what others will say. I spent, geez, I spent, like I said, 45 days up in the high country this year. You know, I'm not a spring chicken. And most of those nights, you guys know how it is. You're up there and you're sleeping on the ridge.

And, you know, when you get to be a little older, you wake up in the morning and things are a little stiff. And you're going, you know, road hunting down in Mexico, sitting on a high rack with a high-powered rifle sounds really good right now. Yeah. I know. So you guys might see me with a smoke pole here at some point. Yeah. Well, that'd be good. Open sight. Well-round you a little bit. Open sight, round ball, black, flintlock, right? Maybe you've got to make it just as hard, as primitive as a muzzleloader can get. Yeah. Let's talk about some of these giant bulls, Randy. And you don't have to say specific numbers, but I don't know how many giants you've killed, but it's been a lot of them. And you've done it in multiple states, not just your backyard, but you've done it in Nevada and other places.

And so just kind of let's go through that a little bit, like, you know, calling them versus just spotting stalking them and not calling them. Or how are you doing it? Like, how does Randy Ulmer hunt giant bulls? Besides, obviously you're scouting, but once it comes to game time. Well, and, you know, you talk about elk scouting. And to be honest with you, I used to scout everything, and I used to scout everything as much as my schedule would allow. And I've become maybe lazy. I like to use the word efficient. I don't think scouting is going to do me any good. I don't do a lot of scouting. So let's say you draw an Arizona elk tag. To be honest with you, scouting does you very little good. Yeah, they're going to rut. It's going to change. I found that the bulls I found in July or August, early August, weren't there come September. They were somewhere else.

And now it's been proven with these guys that put out all the assault and all the trail cameras. You know, they'll have a trail camera picture of a bull, say, in Unit 9, right up by the park. And then they'll kill him in the early rifle or the archery hunt. And, you know, he'll be in Unit 7, which is, you know, 35, 40 miles south. And it's happened over and over again. So my point is we're talking about elk and big elk. And what I've found is I go up. It depends on, you know, the season changes every year, as you guys well know. It kind of moves a day back every year. Yeah. And so depending, I don't really start scouting until the 1st of September because then the bulls are probably going to be in the place they are. And I go out and I'd really like to spend a lot of time out at night listening.

And then if I hear what sounds like a good bull, I'll try to memorize the bugle and then look at him in the morning and try to figure out, you know, if he's a big one, then I've got his bugle memorized. And then I can hunt him. And that's actually how I've killed a lot of my big bulls. But that's my – and you also talked about do I call, don't I call. I called – I used to actually enter a calling contest back in my 20s and early 30s. And I was never any good at it, but I still entered a calling contest because I wanted to get better at it. But my point is I used to call and call and call and call, and I would call in good bulls, decent bulls, calling decent bulls. But I'd never get – those big bulls just didn't respond. You know, and you hear about guys calling really, really old age-class bulls in, but mostly it's on private land or Indian reservations.

Or they just get one that's particularly dumb. Or maybe they're just a lot better caller than I am. But when I started calling, as soon as I stopped calling, I started killing big bulls. And that was my number one – I guess my number one thing that just kind of opened my eyes and go, oh, my gosh. So I don't – Making too much noise and calling too much. I pretty much – I have never called a big bull in. I've never killed one of my big bulls. I just – I mean these guys are 9, 10, 11, 12 years old. They've heard everything. They've seen everything. And, you know, 90% of the time or more than that, if I hear a call, I can tell you if it's an elk or a hunter, even a good cow call. And if I can tell, can you imagine what a big bull, an old bull that's been shot at a few times? So anyway, I've completely quit calling. I don't call at all.

I carry a reed in my mouth, though, to stop a bull before I shoot him, but that's it. Well, and what we've found too is we've thought a lot about it is, you know, if you're a trophy hunter like you are and you're looking for a particular animal or a particular size of animal or whatever, you'd have to call in 200 bulls to find the kind of bull, you know, that you're willing to kill, especially a guy like you that's killed, you know, every kind of bull there is. And so, you know, versus you glassing them and working the country that way. And so you just can't call. There's not enough time to call that many bulls in, even if you were calling in older age class bulls, which, like you said, is nearly impossible.

Well, yeah. The problem is, is when you're calling, the vast majority of time is you are going to spend your time on the bulls that answer you. And the bulls that answer you aren't the ones that you want to kill. So you're working these other bulls. And again, I'm talking about, you know, heavily hunted or at least fairly heavily hunted public land. You're just not going to get the bulls you want. You know, it's interesting. Well, for instance, my son killed a really nice bull in Unit 1, oh, three years, two years ago, three years ago, with a muzzleloader. And, you know, and I'm always preaching to my kids, as you are, this is what you've got to do. You know, you're trying to, of course, they don't believe any of it. They don't think dad's anything special anyway. So, but, you know, it's kind of funny when they have listened to you and they actually spew some of it back at you.

You're like, oh, my gosh, you did listen. And we're hunting these elk and there was, oh, geez, it was a really good year. And there were 10 or 15 bulls bugling in this basin. And we're, you know, in there two hours before light and we're following the big herd. And all of a sudden, one of the kind of the groaners, I'll call them, kind of separated out and went up to the left. And all the other elk went up to the right. And so I'm following all the other elk and my son says, Dad, you've always told me when there's a bunch of bulls like that and one of them separates out or right before dawn. And he said, and if it sounds like a good bull and he's not bugling very much, you follow him. And I thought to myself, but I just wanted to get him an elk. You know, I wasn't really worried about a giant. We followed that other bull and he only bugled and just kind of groaned every 15 minutes.

Once it got light, he almost shut up. But anyway, to make a long story short, we got up on that bull. And it's one of the biggest bulls I've ever seen in my life. I mean, a net, a net, net 400-inch bull. Come on. Oh, yeah. Well, here's that. That's the good part of the story. The sad part of the story is we were in this Aspens, you know, those baby Aspens after a burn. And, you know, they're a 10-feet haul. And it had been raining all morning. And I actually had the muzzleloader in a plastic bag, a black plastic bag. And when we got close to that bull, I took it out. But we were still going through those Aspens. So that bull came out, stuck his head out at 10 yards. It's looking all around. So I got to look at every point he owned. And every point he owned was pushing 20-inch. He had 24-inch for us. I was dying. And finally, he stepped out. And my son took aim at 10 yards. And click.

That's why you hunt with a bow. That's why you hunt with a bow right there. You would have killed him. Well, there you go. I've never had a powder get wet on a bow. Yeah. That's right. Wow. So he got away again, obviously. It's kind of funny. You know, you teach your kids certain things. And, you know, believe it or not, occasionally they listen. Well, I was going to ask you. You know, you describe, you know, normally not hunting. And some of our archery elk hunts in Utah, and a little bit Nevada. I think it's the 25th or so of August. Our hunts in Utah start early. They're 28 days long. But they're really early. And we're really high on hunting the opener for the reason you described earlier. You can find a bull before he leaves within that maybe first four to seven days of our archery hunts.

But as you described, in a lot of units, in a lot of states, you don't start hunting them until September. Do you find yourself, and maybe it's hard to do a quick analysis, of the giant bulls you've killed. Are most of them alone? Or they got some cows in whatever number, and you're just simply slipping in their bedroom quietly, not calling, and killing them that way? Or are they truly alone, and they just haven't really got rutting hard yet? Here's what I've found, and it's happened to me over and over again. And I tell myself this is true, and then I'll quit believing it until I do it again. And it really is true. But what has happened with me is exactly what happened with my son. And, you know, you guys probably know because you've hunted so much, but it's very, very difficult to do. The first really big bull I killed, the first 400-inch bull I killed, I was – that's a long story.

But I knew there was a giant bull in there because my buddy had seen it the year before. And then I talked to another guy that had seen it. I mean, it's really a special bull because its inside spread is like 50 inches. I mean, it's a wide bull. Actually, its inside spread is 55 inches, 56, something like that. It's unbelievable. But a really big bull. Anyway, I followed this bull from before light, just his bugle. And, again, other bugles were going on, and all the other elk went another way, and he went a different way. And, anyway, I got – long story short, I got in front of him. He came by me at 35 yards. I shot him, but then when I shot that really big bull, that Nevada State record bull, same thing. You know, I'd seen that bull – well, to start off, you talking about scouting bulls ahead of time.

This is before I – well, not that I know what I'm doing now, but I really didn't know as much as I think I know now. And I went up there in Nevada, and I scouted and scouted and scouted and scouted and scouted, I mean, before the season. And I had three bulls located that I thought would go blue and crock it. I mean, this is in the heyday of Nevada. And they were all up high. You know, they were all way up high and different – in different places. You know, they were all within 10 miles of each other. So I thought, well, I'm going to go after that one and then that one and that one is not my number one, number two, number three. And, you know, this is – oh, it would probably have to be like the 25th of August, I'm going to say. I could be wrong on that date. But by the time the season started, like five days later, all three of those bulls had absolutely disappeared. And I was like, wow.

So, you know, that scouting did absolutely no good. And I talked to the game warden in that area. He said, yeah, you know, he sees bulls, those same bulls. And they'll be on one mountain range in August, and they'll be on a different mountain range running in July. You know, 25 miles away. I mean in September. So anyway, but where I was going with that is during that hunt, I think it was a 21-day hunt. And I had seen a really big bull midway through the hunt but hadn't been able to get on him. And so I found him again. I found a whole cluster of bulls bugling, you know, three hours before light. And so, again, I – this one bull had a particular bugle, and he separated out about an hour before light, separated out, and went a different way. He would only bugle every 15 or 20 minutes even though it was dark. And he kind of had a groan.

And so I thought, you know what, I'm going to follow him. And so I followed him, and he would only bugle every once in a while. I was in the real thick pinyon junipers. All the other elk had bugled and gone the opposite way. Anyway, to make a long story short, I ended up sneaking up on that bull and killing him. And he was that one that ended up being the Nevada State non-typical record. So then my point with all this is what I have found is these old, old, old bulls that are dominant. And this is – I mean there's nothing scientific in what I'm telling you right now. It's just my feeling. I think what they do is they're so dominant that they go into the cluster at night. I call it a frenzy. They go into the frenzy at night, check all the cows. If there's a cow in heat, the other bulls will either fight him, but he can take that cow.

Or they've already fought him in the past, and they know just to leave him alone, he gets that cow, takes it off. And that has happened so many times to me. Well, this year, my same son, Levi, had another Arizona elk tag that kid gets – well, you guys know the system. He was the youngest grandkid on both sides. So he's got so many – he's had seven – Mentoring tags and stuff. He's had seven Arizona elk tags. Geez. Yeah. And he's killed seven big bulls. How old is he? Anyway. How old is he? He's 18 right now, and he's got seven bulls on his wall. Well, the last two bulls he killed were 397 and 391. Come on. Oh, dude. Oh, trust me. It drives me crazy. Chip off the old block right there. Well, no. He's just – he's got something. He's got something special anyway. He shot four arrows at elk in his life, and he's killed four giant bulls, and they've all died within sight. Oh, my gosh.

But anyway, my point where I was going with this is – well, that bull he killed this year would be 391. It has about 12 inches broken off. It's fourth. Anyway, he followed this herd of elk. Same thing. First thing in the morning, there's 20 cows maybe, one 350 bull, and then there's this really big bull. Well, the big bull pulled right out of the herd all by himself, walked a mile and a half, and Levi trucked along right behind him. And the kid's really sneaky. I mean, he was in those elk – he was in elk all morning until whatever, 8 o'clock in the morning, never spooked an elk. And the big bull goes into a cluster of juniper trees, and Levi sneaks in there after him, and I'm thinking, oh, this is not going to end well. Because, you know, I figured the bull was going to bed. And when they bed, it's so hard to sneak up, but they don't have anything to do to look for you.

And I'm up on a mountain two miles away maybe, maybe three, and all of a sudden I see that bull come squirting out of those trees. And I thought, that's what I knew was going to happen. And it was second to the last day of the season. And I watched that bull go about 40 yards, and all of a sudden he just started wobbling and tipped over backwards. I'm like, oh, my goodness. But my point is, is he left the herd. Yeah, yeah. And he was bigger and stronger and just a much more dominant-looking bull anyway than that other bull. And then that night again, they'll go back in and do it again. I think those older bulls, they're not going to waste their time managing a herd of cows. No, they do what they want. I mean, that's a lot of work. Yeah. That's not what they're really after. I can see what you're saying. They pretty much do what they want. Exactly. You mentioned scouting. Oh, go ahead.

No, no, no. That was my whole point is that these bigger age-class bulls just, you know, they come in, they take what they want. And if what they want's not there, they'll leave. They'll come back tomorrow night and see if it's there yet. Crazy. You mentioned scouting, you know, and spending a lot of time early and whatnot. There was a time in Nevada I drove by you.

And I think you were on a main road, but you were in a chair glassing with the big eyes.

Oh, yeah. And I'm sure you remember the exact time I'm talking about, but because you've done it so many times, you know. But tell us a little bit about that as far as your glassing techniques and just spending time behind the glass. Well, my wife thinks I have an obsession. I'll let people. I'll let people. You can have my bow. You can have my truck. You can have my quad. You can borrow anything. You can't borrow my wife, but you can borrow almost anything I've got. But you can't touch my optics. I've been an optic fanatic for, oh, geez, 30, 35 years since the size 15 by 60s came out. But I love optics. It's just fun. I mean, that's what I spend all my summer doing is just sitting behind, hiking and then sitting behind binoculars. So, yeah, I've pretty much got every good binocular that's ever been built. And I don't hardly ever get rid of them either.

And what they've done in the last few years has just been phenomenal with the optics. You know, you guys have all the different optics. You know what I'm talking about. It's just phenomenal. But I've got everything. I mean, you know, I've got Swarovskis. I've got Lycas. I've got Doctors. I've got Koas.

And I'm sure there's a few name brands. There's a ton of good stuff. My wife threatened to cut me off. I said, hey, you know what? This is one of my only obsessions other than hunting. So it's good. And they're related. Yeah, they can't handle it. What I spend all my extra money on. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, good. Is there... So let's say a guy wants to do what you're doing. I mean, which is impossible. But let's just say a guy wants to, you know, do his best to kill a big bull or whatnot. What would you tell somebody? Like, what would you tell somebody, this is what you need to be doing? Obviously, applying in the West and whatnot. But is there some kind of advice you'd give people? Yeah. First of all, I think the most important thing is... Okay. I'm just going to talk bow running right now. Yeah. But let's say, okay, you want to kill a big bull.

And really, I think bow running is probably one of your best bets if you can become proficient. The last thing you want to do is... Let's say you're an Arizona resident. Okay. It's going to take you 15 years to draw a really, really good unit. Well, the last thing you want to do is go there and either hire an outfitter or go on your own and not know what you're doing. So, my advice is go hunt in as many states as you can. Become a good elk hunter. Yeah. And in the meantime, start accumulating. You know, get some good application services. You guys know any? That can... We'll want. Yeah. Put you into... Oh, by the way, congratulations on your first year of your magazine. Oh, thanks. The anniversary. That's great. Yeah. But anyway, put in for his... You know, put in for these states. Put in for Nevada. Put in for Utah. Put in for all these different states where you can get a good tag.

And then when you are able to draw it, you're not going to be novice. And I see this in Arizona. These guys wait for 10 years to get a tag. And they really don't know what they're doing. Yeah. And not because they're stupid. It's just because they don't have any experience. Your experience is the only way to teach. And yeah, you've got to fail a lot of times. Yeah. I spent 20 years chasing elk for... Well, 15 years chasing elk hard before I finally shot a big one. It's because I didn't know what the heck I was doing. And you know, it seems easy when you're watching... Well, when you watch you guys on video. But it's not easy. It's really not easy. And then last of all, if you get a good tag and you truly want to shoot a big bull, you can shoot a little bull. Yeah. You know, I mean, if you want to shoot a 350 bull, which I think is an incredible elk... That's my problem.

...then, you know, you're going to have to pass up a ton of 310 or 300 to 320 bulls. All right. So let's... But what if we want a 400? How do we... We're going to have to pass up the 350s, which are phenomenal bulls. To be honest, a true 400 gross, officially scored gross bull is so rare. I mean, I will bet you in the state of Arizona... I'm not talking about what you see on social media, but I'm talking about an officially measured to our 400-inch bull. Yeah. It's so rare. I mean, it's so rare. Really, I think the odds are so far against you. Yeah. I really do. I think it's almost a... It's almost a fantasy. And it can happen, obviously, because, you know, it happens to people every year. But those bulls just don't hardly exist. If you do want to shoot one, first, you better become very good at hunting elk. And then you'd be better be able to either...

And even, I mean, landowner tags, there really just aren't any... You can hunt a private ranch, but even on a private ranch in Utah, a 400-inch bull is so rare. I mean, really, it's almost a unicorn. It's just... They just sometimes happen. Or you're hunting in a spot. Like you said, you get a tip from a buddy, he saw one, and then all of a sudden, boom, you or one of your family members draw the same unit. And you have a starting place. One thing leads to another, and you've got to hunt a specific animal. One or two elk, and that's what you're hunting. You're not hunting elk, you're hunting an elk. Yeah. Exactly. And you better pass up every elk, and what's going to happen is you're going to see a 360 bull, and you're going to, you know, you're going to fold like a taco, and you're going to shoot it. That's me. I'm the taco folder. That's me.

Yeah, you've got to pretty much, you know, to, you know, take the entire season off, plus a week before, whatever, and just live there. Which is just not possible for most guys. And then, and then not be the taco. It really, do you, do you want to, okay, let's say that there is a 400 bull in your unit, and let's say that you have a 10% chance of killing that bull. Now, in a, in a unit that has a 400 inch bull, there's going to be, let's say 10 or 15 in a decent sized unit, bulls that are 360 plus. Yeah. Okay. Do you want to take, and let's say the biggest bull you've ever killed is a 320. Yeah. Do you really want to pass up all those 360s? No. Would you have a 70 or 80% chance of killing at that 10% chance of killing a 400? That's where you really get into a dilemma. Now, I grew up in Arizona. I got completely spoiled because I got good tags and when there were, were those kinds

of bulls out there. And so for me, it's a different question. If I go home without a bull, you know, so what, you know, so what, you know, one of us, somebody in my family is going to get an elk tag and we're going to get some elk meat. So that's not an issue, but, but, you know, but for somebody else that's never killed a bull that they really could be proud of on their wall to, to wait for a 400 is kind of foolish in my opinion. And it's like, yeah, but it's also like if somebody were telling you right now there, you got a, there's one bull and there's a 10% chance and, and listed it out for you. You wouldn't even hear that, Randy. You wouldn't even hear it. You're going to be like, I'm going to take the 10%, give me the tag, give me three weeks and that's where I'm at. I'll take my chances. You know, and that's what I think guys did that. Yeah, but I'm psychotic just like you guys.

Well, it is psychotic, but the psychotic guys. Most people aren't as nuts as you guys. Oh, yeah, you. And I am. It's just, it's not natural. It's by the grace of God, we're not in the crazy house. Well, we should be, but, but it's, that's why guys like you are doing what you're doing. And, and there was guys for mule deer. I had, I always wanted to kill giant bucks and, and you know, I had some of the, what I would call mentors, you know, tell you, you know, it's not the eighties. It's not this, it's not the sixties, fifties, whatever. And, and it's not possible. And I just kept saying to myself, like, they're dying of old age somewhere. Like they're dying of old age. I'm not going to take that for an answer. And, um, anyway, and so it does, you just. Well, you are, I mean, if you, and Melissa, since you started talking about yourself, let me talk about you a little bit.

No, you, no, seriously. Nice segue, Jason. Brutal. No, no, no. You are, you are a phenomenon. You're, you're not natural. Um, because what you've done in the last 20 years, uh, with a bow, well, with any weapon, really that the deer you killed are just, it's just not, it, it really, you could, you could, you know, you could say, no, no, we're talking about you right now. But the thing is, is, is really, you can't, you know, you asked me about 400 inch poles, but you can't take, say a 20 year old kid, however you were old you were when you started shooting those monsters, you can't take a 20 year old kid right now and, and blow smoke up his skirt and say, you, you could do this. He can't. It's, it's like, I mean, it's like taking a kid off the high school basketball team said, you can be Michael Jordan. You know, you've got a special set of skills.

You've got the time you're working in the hunting industry, uh, variables, you're good at kind of everything. And you have the time and you live in the right country and all these different skill sets that you have, it's just, you know, it's, it's kind of like winning the lottery to be in the position you're in and have the skill set you have. So, you know, again, going back to that 400 inch bull, I just, I just, it, it, it just, I cringe a little bit to, to, uh, to, to, to have someone wanting to try to do that. Uh, because I just hate to see him disappointed. Well, I want to try. Jason and I talk all the time. I want to try, but I got to give up Mulder and I got to decide when that is for 20 years. And it might happen once in 20 years. It might. Yeah. Like that's going to happen. But you know, you live in Utah and, and, and you have connections and you know where those bulls live.

And seriously in Utah, uh, I believe that if you waited long enough and, and got a good tag and I think your odds are probably better in the bow hunt than any other. Well, I don't know. Not in Utah. You guys season days suck. We got an early archery. Yeah. Yeah. Your season days suck. Yeah. But, uh, I think it's possible there because, you know, I say all your limited, well, I'd say, and you guys know this better than I do, but I'd say the top five or six or seven units that you got to have the elk have 400 inch bulls every year. Yeah. It's like, it's not like it once was kind of like when you were talking the heyday of Arizona, the heyday of Nevada, like early 2000 in Nevada. I mean, there was nothing like it. And you remember that like it was yesterday. Um, and it's good here. It's just not as good. And, but you're right. They're still killing one or two on each unit a year.

And speaking of which I, you guys have to tell me where to go. Cause I can draw any unit right now in, in Utah, uh, except San Juan, I think. And I may be close to the San Juan. So we'll talk later about that. You don't want that one anyway. We'll talk later. Yeah, we can do it. We know a good outfitter. Well, we, and we, and we, uh, you know, you non-residents can put in, we can't even put in for out. I was looking, I don't know. I just got on. So I started social media about two months ago. I had a young kid who got me started on Instagram and oh my gosh, that was the worst thing I ever did. All I did was look at Instagram. That's addicting. You thought you were addicted to hunting. It's nothing to be addicted to your phone. You know, I hope you guys realize that you make every other hunter in the West out there feel inadequate.

I mean, I've hunted for 40 years out West and I've had my fair share of success. And I look at, well, shoot, I look at Adam Bronson. In two months, he hasn't posted all of his giant buffs. I remember. I remember when they started. How many giant sheep did you guys kill this year, Adam? Well, we're talking about you. We're talking about you. I'm going to pull that card right now. We're talking about Randy Omer. So I remember within a month or two ago, all of a sudden, oh, Randy's on Instagram. And it was not daily, multiple times a day, giant after giant after giant. And we knew, and we can't keep up with, and we're still proper to the point, you still haven't used all of your material. So you're not even caught up with what you've already killed. For example, five days ago, Randy Omer's account, Randy Omer, posted three monster bucks

three monster bucks right there with a bow, all with a bow. And I'm sure he still hasn't pulled out all of his giants. And he's 89 posts into it. We still haven't seen the good stuff. I have to tell you a funny story. A friend of mine, well, the same friend of mine, Steve Winery, his son had an Arizona Unit 1 tag archery. And his dad was working, and he couldn't come down. His brother was working, couldn't come down. So he's down here all by himself. He's a young kid. Well, young, he's like 20 years old, very experienced elk hunter. But just first time on his own, really away from not having anybody to help him. So my son could only hunt on the weekends. He started college. He wants to go to med school. And so he could only hunt on Saturday and Sunday. So in the middle of the week, I drive from one end of the state to the other to go help my buddy.

And so I'm sitting there, and he's just always looking at his phone. He goes, look at this picture. Look at this picture. Look what they just got in Utah. Look what they got here. I'm like, oh, this is so cool. I said, you know what? My son's opened a Facebook account for me, whatever, six or seven years ago. But I never used it. And I said, can you teach me how to use Facebook so I can look at all this stuff? He goes, he said his exact words. Facebook's for old people. He goes, you've got to get on Instagram. He says, also, you don't have to talk to anybody on Instagram. All you have to do is look at pictures. I said, hey, that's more along my intellect there, looking at pictures. I can do that. He hooked me up on Instagram in about 10 minutes. And so I just started posting a few family pictures. But mostly just what people really want to see is just your hunting pictures.

We're all like, here he is. He's found it. Well, every day we pull it up. Of course, like every single other hunter out there. And we're like, all right, who's killing what? Because we're going to the office, strapped to an office desk. And just wondering who's having a good time out there. Well, I wonder how many productive hours in the American economy, how bad the American economy has suffered because people are looking at pictures on Instagram. I know my personal workload has gone way down because I spend all my time looking at your guys' pictures. All I know is Adam and I get the same amount of work done now in two good work hours that we used to get in 10. So we're pretty proud of ourselves, really. Not only do we get the same amount of workload done, we're also scrolling Instagram eight out of those 10 hours. As we started in on these giant mule deer, let's transition to that.

First, I want to know what your favorite animal is to hunt. Second off, I want to know how you're killing all these giant bucks, the stalking. I know you've sat with bucks within 40 yards or who knows what. We're going to hear the stories, but for eight plus hours, rainstorms, you've experienced it all. And so I kind of want to transition into that. But first off, what is your favorite animal to hunt? Oh, definitely mule deer. Now, if you ask me that, it's been my favorite animal to hunt since I was a kid because it's really what I started hunting, mule deer and elk. But, you know, our family, just like you guys, back when I was a kid in Arizona, you know, we got off school opening day of deer season, which was always on a Friday. And so, you know, we grew up hunting mule deer. So it was mule deer. But when I started bow hunting, I hated mule deer.

I hunted them more than anything else, but I hated them. Because they win. All I ever got to see was their ass running away from me. And for 20 years, you know, I figured out elk. Not that I figured out elk, but I've kind of got a little bit of a handle on elk 15 years before I got a little bit of a handle on mule deer. And so for those 15 years, I would have, if you would have asked me, I said, well, geez, elk is my favorite. Well, mule deer was still my obsession, but I hated them because I couldn't kill them. Well, I could kill a buck every year. I just couldn't kill them. I couldn't kill an older age class buck. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's why you want one more the next year. That's what it is about mule deer. And then you factor in the whole scarcity, for lack of a better word, all the states that are harder to come by than they were in the 70s and 80s. And so it just.

Which is part of the addiction. Yeah. It's really part of the addiction. What you can't have is what you want the most. Well, anything that's rare is valuable. And that's not original to me, but it's true. Anything that's rare is valuable. And big mule deer are rare. But. And especially difficult to get. And you can go buy a big elk. Where?

Well, no. On regular. Where? What's happening? You guys must be making a lot more money. No, I just want to know where. So we have something to look forward to. You can go to the Wallopi to have a soup pie. Yeah. You can go to the San Carlos. But even those, Randy. I know guys go every year and they're shooting 370s. And maybe it's because they're not willing to. They're the taco they're folding. You know. Maybe they're. Maybe it's just because they're not willing to eat a tag. I don't. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know either. But, you know. Like I say. Well, you know. When you say 370. You guys are very jaded. At 370. Is it John? No, I know. You start talking about a 370 bull. And you're talking about the state record for that year. I know. Yeah. We know. Yeah, I know. But just that 400 inch goal. But let's go back to mule deer. So, you hate them. But you love them.

And it's part of the game. It's just the more you get your butt kicked by mule deer. The more you want to hunt them. And put your hands on a giant. And so, when did you. Just let's go back in time a little bit. When did you get serious about mule deer? When did you harvest your first giant? What do you remember? Well, I was really serious the whole time. But they didn't know that I was serious. Because I didn't hurt any of them. But no, I think I shot my first. This is almost a shame. Because I grew up in Arizona. But I killed my first really good buck. In Utah. On the book cliffs. Book cliffs, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And it was only because he was really dumb. But that was in the 90s. And then, you know, once you shoot a nice one, you kind of get a little bit more obsessed. Because you think, oh, I can actually do this. And you actually give yourself false hope.

But really, it kind of cascaded from there. I started focusing more on them. And I kind of learned a bunch of things that I, well, you know, you guys have been through this. Well, your learning curve is a lot faster than mine. But you kind of do this. You make the same mistakes over and over and over again. And you can't finally figure out. You know, you're just like, really, am I this stupid? I have to make that mistake. I can't do that again. Again and again before I finally figure out. You've got to stop doing this. So really, it was by reducing, not doing, not making all the mistakes that I used to make. And gradually, you're like, okay, you can't make all those mistakes. You can only kill a buck if you do this. You can only kill a buck if you don't do that. And so it was a really gradual, long learning curve.

But then once you learn what you can't do and what you can get away with, all of a sudden it becomes, it doesn't become easy never, but it becomes easier. Yeah. So you're, and you're, you're primarily, you talked about your optics earlier, the spot and stalk. That is your, that's your bread and butter way to hunt mule deer. I mean, that's, I mean, that's how we hunt mule deer. It's how I like to hunt mule deer. I like to have, not that you're in control, but I'm not a, I'm not a tree stand hunter. I did it when I was a kid a few times, probably because my dad knew, just told me, stay here. And he knew he could find me again. You know, if I didn't get out of the tree or the blind, but yeah, spot and stalk, having a unit where you can use your optics, hopefully watch a buck until he hits the dirt. And then it's game on.

That's how you, I mean, that's your, it seems like that's how you're hunting mule deer, right, Randy? It is. I shot one mule deer out of a blind. I've never sat a tree stand. You know, for me, hunting's always been my fun. You know, it's sometimes it seems like it's not fun, but it's always been my fun. So, and one of the things, to be honest with you, if you were to take away my hunting or my scouting right now, I would probably, for just for big deer, I'd probably let you take away the hunting. Because I get to spend, whatever, 40, 50 days scouting every year, and there's no one in the mountains. You got it all to yourself. It's beautiful. There's no pressure. And then hunting season comes along. It's all public land. And it's like, oh, my God, here, you know, here we go. Yeah, we're off to the races. And then it becomes a little bit of a competition. Yeah.

But no, that's how I love to hunt, because I just love glass them up. I love the country they live in. I love the physical aspect of it. I mean, almost every deer I kill, well, in Colorado, almost every deer I kill, you know, I backpacked in, and, you know, I'm by myself. Or, you know, I got my nephew, Zach, on the other ridge. And he's the one you really should be interviewing. He has killed some giants. He has. In the last six years, he's killed six bucks. If you average their scores, there'd be well over 200. And he is a stone-cold killer. But anyway, but we always hunt together. You know, I have the luxury now, and that was one of my goals in life, is to be able to get work and family positions so that, you know, I can spend so much time scouting. I finally positioned myself where I get a lot of time scouting.

So I go up every year in Colorado and, you know, try to, you know, I really spread myself out. I always like to, I like new country. I like exploring. And so I spread out and look at all these different units and try to find out. If I, we try to draw tags, but, you know, you can always turn them back in Colorado. And then, and then if I find a big buck, try to get a landowner tag in that unit. But I always try to find two big bucks. And I have for the last, whatever, six, well, since Zach started hunting, was able to get off and start hunting with me. Six years ago, you know, we found, I found, we've killed, geez, you know, I found two big bucks every year, and we've pretty much killed them. And, you know, Zach's, Zach's kind of benefited from that. But I told somebody this year, I told several people, I said, you know what, you know, it's time to hand over the torch.

I mean, he's kind of, I think he's, I hope he's not listening to this, because I'll deny every word of it. So you guys coerced me into it. But I think he's, he's probably the best shot in Arizona right now, competitively. And so he can out shoot me now, because I'm getting a little wobbly. He can out shoot me, he can out hike me, he can out glass me, he can, he can, he can out stalk me. Yeah, he's the predator. The only thing he, that I have over, over him is I have patience. He has none. And, well, I shouldn't say that. He's developing patience, and he'll probably get better at that. But I've got much better patience than he does. Well, and speaking about patience, tell us about, just give us a couple of these stories.

I know, and I've just heard through the grapevine, so I want you to verify, but that you've literally sat hours upon hours upon hours on bedded bucks in Nevada and different things. And maybe a little bit on how, how, is it easier to kill these giant bucks in Colorado? I mean, Nevada kicks my butt, but I love it, but it's hard on me. And so I want to know the difference, because I haven't been arching in Colorado. You know, I would like to see your trophy room if Nevada hadn't killed your butt, kicked your butt. Me too. Me too, and I have a good one. Because I know I see the deer you've killed in Nevada, and if that's kicking your butt, then you are completely spoiled. Well, I just want to know, A, I want to know, what am I missing in Colorado? And not that I'm, but what are we missing? No, Colorado, I'm always hunting the rut, Adam and I are.

Physically, you know, if you, if I was to give, like, let's say if one of my good friends said, you know, I want to really kill a good deer. Yeah. And he could go to Nevada, where you and I hunt, or where you used to hunt, or I try to hunt. And he said, you know, should I go to Colorado, or should I go to Nevada? I'd send him to Nevada every time. Yeah. And here's the reason. Colorado is incredibly physically demanding. And not only is it physically demanding, it's mentally demanding. Because, you know, we don't realize, those of us that do this all the time, we don't realize the, let's call it the fear factor. It's not really fear, but it's the, it's the getting up in the high country, and then, and then just the overwhelming feeling that people get, and they just want to go home. Yeah. Especially if it's physically demanding, or if it's wet and cold, or if they get hungry, or whatever.

Yeah. In Nevada, you know, for the most part, well, you're pretty much going back, middle of the day. It's a long day. In your trailer. You got the air conditioning on. A hundred degrees. And, you know. Air conditioning's freezing up, now it's blowing warm air. It's just, it's a miserable cycle. Yeah, damn it. You know, dadgummit, the ice melted in the cooler. Yes. My sodas are warm. Every time. Of course, you guys don't have beer in Utah, I know. No. No, we don't. No. Anyway. You forgot the snakes. You forgot the snakes. Nevada is just a hunt, and, you know, you can go over there, and a lot of units in Nevada, you know, you're going to find a 180 buck. Yeah. You're just going to find one, and so you're going to, now Colorado, you take the same guy, and you go up there, and you say, okay, we're backpacking in, you know, we're going to backpack in until we get one.

And, you know, it's going to rain on in your 12,000 feet, you know, there'll be a skip snow every once in a while. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, here, sleep in this one-man tent. Which I don't like tents. Yeah. And so, but just, he's going to get altitude sickness. You know, well, about half the guys end up getting a little altitude sickness. Bronson, he is trying to keep us from going to Colorado during the archery season. No, you guys would do great. I'm talking about, you know, I'm talking about your, you know, your average human beings. You know, you guys are kind of like superheroes. And you've got superpowers. Getting deep, yeah. And so, no, but anyway, no, Colorado is just tough. Now, there are a lot of places. Like, a couple years ago, I found a buck down in the sage. And, you know, I drove down the highway. I got out of my truck. You hunt them where they're at.

I must go up half a mile that day. Yeah, you hunt them where they're at. If he's going to let you hunt them half a mile off the road. I don't care. I don't care. You know, I found, I did find that deer. And a friend of mine was driving down the highway. He'd been at the bar. And at 2 o'clock in the morning, he was driving down the highway. Come on. And almost hit this deer. And he knew I had a tag. He called me up and said, man, there's a deer on the side of the road. Anyway. Did you kill that deer? I did. We could only find that deer every few days because he's in some thick stuff. And he was pretty smart because he lived close to civilization. But, no, you talk about hunting where you find him. I mean, I have no problem. I have no problem sleeping in a camper. I mean, I've been there, done that. I don't need to freeze my butt off. I don't need to be miserable and hungry.

I'm just kind of greedy for big bucks. I'll just hunt them wherever I find them. Let's talk about your tennis shoes. Every time I think about Randy Elmer, I think about tennis shoes and stocking giant bucks. What is he thinking? That's what. You're the first one. That's what I mean. And then after about 10 giants, I'm like, I'm going to get myself a pair of tennis shoes.

So how did you come across that idea? I haven't had a pair of tennis shoes on when I've killed a deer in 25 years. Really? I'm always in my socks. Oh.

Okay. All right. Just all the kill pictures. I was, I've always been a, well, until my, tell my frequent knee surgeries, I was always a long distance runner. And actually until my late forties, I was, you know, we did those 24 hour adventure races competitively. And so I've always been kind of a mountain runner. Yeah. And, um, so when you, if you stick a boot on my foot, I feel so clunky. Yeah. The only time I'll ever wear boots is if I, if, if I think there's going to be snow and snow that actually stays because, you know, if you, I always, my tennis shoes are always oversized. So I can get a couple pairs of wool socks in there and really, uh, a couple pairs of wool socks and snow for a half a day is no big deal. Yeah. So I don't, unless I think I'm going to get sustained snow, snow that's going to stick on the ground. I always wear tennis shoes. It's just, I'm so much more nimble.

I can go so much faster. And as you guys well know, especially if you're hunting now, sometimes you've got to really skeet out to get it done. And, and, uh, I was watching that video of you guys. I don't know when I think it was Chris that was, uh, hunting, uh, an elk. I think it was in, uh, Nevada with a rifle. It was a John. That was John in Southwest desert. Yeah, we ran. And you guys are running through the woods and you were smoking it through the woods. And I thought, man, they could run a lot faster if they had tennis shoes on.

That's so true. So how many pair do you take on a typical hunt? You can't just take one. Oh my gosh. Uh, now you're getting into my, my, you know, you're invading my privacy now. This is the secret sauce. Randy, Randy, we have not mentioned. I've got 15 pairs. And here's the reason. How many? What? 15. I can take 15. On a hunt. I have an action packer, Ben, one of the big ones. And it's full of tennis shoes. And there's a reason. And what's that? It's full of tennis shoes. It is full of tennis shoes. They are all black. XA. The same model. Everything size. So you just find a right and a left every morning and you're gone. No, no. Because here's the deal. Nothing stinks more than your feet. And, and, and these guys, and you guys may be guilty of this, but, um, you know, hunting elk, well, hunting mule there too, but specifically elk, their noses are incredible.

And, uh, you know, I see guys, uh, you know, they put a fresh clothes, set of clothes on every day or whatever. And then they put the same old boots on and they put the same old leather belt that they've been sweating on for six years on. And I think, oh my gosh, are you serious? You can sniff their belt. And it smells like rancid sweat. Well, anyway, here's the deal. I don't wear leather belt. I don't wear leather or anything, but, um, I have a fresh set of tennis shoes for every day of an Arizona elk hunt, which is 14 days. Brand new. And, and so what I do is every day I've got fresh tennis shoes. I've got a big bin of socks. I have fresh socks. I have a fresh set. I have a 20 sets of camouflage clothes. And, and so I don't have to go into town to do laundry in the middle of the hunt. He's like one of them wives that, you know, when they have a closet for shoes, a shoe closet. Yeah.

Randy's got that for his hunting tennis shoes. He's might be one of the only guys that, that his shoes outnumber his wife's shoes. Yeah. In the closet. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point, Bronson. Yeah. You're, you're. Women are known for shoes and stuff. I keep the thought. He's got several addictions. I'm listing them out. We got hunting. We got optics. Now we're into shoe addiction, sock addiction. I keep my heels and my pumps in the back part of my closet. I don't want my friends to see. Jeez. And so are they new shoes? Or let's say you get a pair of shoes. Are you washing them? Are you putting some kind of, you know, baking soda on them? What are you doing? Well, no, no. What I do is I, you know, I wash them with Tide Free at the beginning of the season. And then like after the end of one hunt, I'll take them all and put them in the, you don't

want to put them in the dryer, but I just, I wash them in the washing machine and I take them out and put them on, on the patio or the sun shines and let them dry that way. And then, and then every morning when I, when I, I, I get up, I actually do put probably three or four tablespoons of, of baking soda in each of my shoes before I put them on because your feet just generate a lot of smell as you guys look at the sweat. You're talking three or four tablespoons. That's a lot, right? Oh, it is. Okay. It is. I mean, and it actually seeps through. I mean, you can see it kind of crusting on the outside. Just kind of permeating the shoe. Just comes. Yeah. Permeating the shoe, you know, especially if there's dew on the ground, you'll see it. So if you need to, if you're early one morning and you just put a fresh pair of tennis

shoes on and you want to check the wind, you just kick your foot up in the air and a little bit of that powder floats out and you just check it. That's a good point, bro. Hey, dual purpose. It's my wind checker. Yeah. There you go. There you go. That's taking it to the next level. Okay. So you've spotted a buck. You bet him. Do you stock them before you, before they bet? I mean, just, I know what I like to do, but let's hear what, let's hear what you like to do. Glass of buck up. You know, it's, and I know you hate this answer, but it's situational. Yeah. Backing up a little bit. Yeah. One thing that I do that, that, that, that I get arguments with people over and over again, not arguments, but they disagree with how I do it. And I'm kind of a one trick pony. I really, it's taken me so long to kind of figure out how to do it that I don't want to

vary my routine very much because I know what works. But the one thing that I do is, you know, I used to say, okay, years ago I said, okay, it's going to take me 20 stocks to kill a mature bull buck. Then, you know, it's gone down and down. And one, the one thing where I'm going with this is the one thing that I do now that is probably one of the most important things I do is I don't stock a buck unless I'm almost certain I can kill it. Now, now when I say I'm almost certain, so many variables come in, you know, you spook a doe or whatever the wind changes. I mean, but, but given, given that circumstances don't change, I don't spook a deer, another deer, a hunter doesn't come over the hill. I don't stock a buck unless I'm fairly certain I can kill it. And again, that's for, that's because I'm lazy. I, I don't want to wait two or three days for that deer to come out again.

Um, and I've, I've got so many days invested in that particular deer. And that's one of the hardest things that has been for me to teach Zach, uh, is no, no, we're watching him this morning after that deer right now, you are not doing this. You're not doing that. Uh, and that's why I say patience is so important, but so, so. Really, I wait till that deer is in a position and, and, you know, that really big non-typical I killed in Nevada, you know, whatever, 10 years ago, um, that deer would not get in a position when, and he was, well, he's really big. And so, and he was, you know, on the edge of a burn. Um, and I knew if I spooked him, he'd probably go on the thick stuff and I'd never see him again. So I, I laid on that deer for four days. Uh, when I say laid on it, I was just out there in striking range, you know, within 300

yards or however far I thought I could get away with him, not smelling me if the wind changed. And I just waited and waited and waited for him to get in a good position where I thought I had a really good chance and killing it. Finally, he did. He finally went into a place where I could kill him. And I, I, uh, zipped in there. It only took me about 20 minutes to get in there. And I whacked him. Um, that's my point. You know, if you're hunting one deer and if you got him to yourself, obviously if, if a bunch of other people are hunting him, you might have to take more chances, but this particular deer and, and, uh, most of the deer that I'm hunting are far enough back in that I don't have a lot of competition. So, um, you know, I, I, I, I usually am extremely patient. Wait for the deer to get worried. Just whether it's, you asked me originally, whether I wait for him to bed or not.

It depends. It depends on whether they're, if they're bedded in a place where I can slip up on them and, and, uh, I think I can sneak in on them and shoot them in their bed. I have no problems with that. Yeah. Um, I have no problem with that. However, uh, if, if, if, you know, if they're not in a good position, uh, you wait for them to get up to feed and then you wait till they feed in a good, into a good position where you can get within 70 yards or something and wait for them to get up and feed. And maybe they move toward you or come toward you or whatever. No, I'll never get that close to a deer and wait. Without knowing you're going to kill it. Yeah. Without, no, without knowing, without. The wind's good and he's, you can kill him right where he's at. Well, that's what I, I mean, yeah, that's what I mean. I've killed, you know, the deer, some of the deer I've killed.

I mean, if you've got a solid wind, that's not going to change. I, I, I personally get that close. Yeah. Well, I've, I've just had too many bad experiences where, yeah, the wind's perfect, perfect, perfect. And all of a sudden, you know, in the mountains, especially well in Colorado, you can't do it because you're straight up and down and you know how those mountain winds are now in Nevada. You know, you're hunting more in the desert in Nevada where the winds are more consistent because you don't have those really big mountains where the wind will come around. And, and, you know, it's kind of like a, I compare it to a, you know, to a stream. You see a big rock in the stream and the, the, for a long ways past that rock, the, the water's kind of swirling around. Now, you know, you get a flat with, with no structure in the bottom of a stream and it's just going to flow smoothly.

And where you're, where I'm seeing you hunting in Nevada for the most part is kind of more desert. And it's not as likely. Yeah. The wind's going to be more than likely in the middle of the day, be steady. And it's not that case. Sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes it's, you know, on perfect high pressure systems, it's a lot harder because you swirl a lot more, but if it's, you got, sometimes you're on the end of a front or, or right at the beginning of some kind of front coming through and you just get that real. 20 mile an hour. Yeah. And then they're dead. Like you've, you've really got a great opportunity there. Of course stuff happens and you bump a boat, a doe, excuse me, or something. But anyway, those steady winds like that can, can sure help a guy. Oh geez. Yeah. Then you, then you've got, then you've got time and, and that's what usually screws

something up for me is if I'm too close to a buck for too long a period of time. Yeah. Their senses are just too keen all the way around to, you know, something's going to go wrong. One of their buddies is going to get up and walk over to you or a doe is going to move in, you know, or, or an elk's going to walk over there or a horse, you know? Yeah. A hundred percent. Is there any other tactics you use when you're, when you're, uh, archery deer hunting, killing, killing these giants? Um, you know, a couple of simple things, but, uh, I think they're important is, is, uh, especially, you know, when you're hunting in steep country is using a, uh, a, uh, a, um, range finder that's tilt compensated, uh, because, you know, up until they kind of, until they came out with those, uh, it was really difficult and guys would always miss it, shoot over deer all the time.

And so I always carry a tilt compensated range finder and I will never shoot at a deer, um, without ranging it. The last deer I shot without ranging it, probably shouldn't say this on a podcast, but I, uh, I had bought one of those, uh, I think it was Rossi that only went down to 32 yards, 34 yards. That's a Swarro EL 10s. Yeah, exactly. I had one of those and, and I thought, geez, if I can't range, if I can't tell, you know, what a deer is it, you know, 31 yards. Yeah. I agree. Exactly. There's something wrong with me. So anyway, I had shot this buck and, uh, I thought I'd made a pretty good shot on it and I had, it was, it was a good shot, but I was, I could still see him. He even went and bedded down. I thought, you know what? I just need to go shoot him again. So, and it was in a great position. He was bedded down and I could come up with this little room rocket. Oh, geez.

I figured 20 or 30 yards, something like that. So anyway, I, oh, I, uh, I snuck over there and I tried to range find with my Swarov skis and it wouldn't give me any distance. So I thought, well, geez, you know, it's, it's, it's under 30 yards. I'll just use my 20 yard pen. And I, I still to this day, don't know what happened, but, uh, I put my 20 yard pin on him. And so that's, this is the only time in whatever, 15, 20 years I had didn't use range find on a deer. And I thought, well, geez, he's gotta be 20 yards. And you know how it is when you're looking straight downhill, it's really hard to judge a yardage. So put it right in the middle of his chest and shot and, uh, hit the ground right in front of him. I thought, are you serious? For some reason, either the range, I probably, I was trying to, you know, how you peek

your head up over the, the, the hill and, and, and it was hitting five yards in a rock or something. Yeah. Your, yeah. Your range finder is actually hitting a rock five yards away. So it's not registering. Well, the deer was probably 35 yards away. And, uh, anyway, so my point is with that, well, he just jumped up and he was sick. So he jumped up, stood there. I got to shoot him. But, uh, my point is don't ever shoot a deer. And I'm talking about ever with, without range finding, without range finding him first. So that, that's one of my big tips because people get excited and they think, oh, geez, I got to shoot him right now. I don't have time to range find. You're much better off taking the time. Cause even if he does, you know, walk away, you'll get another shot at him again. And you might as well use the technology that we have to your, to your benefit.

How do you, uh, how do you control your nerves on giant animals? Like who told you I control my nerves? Well, I don't know. You're killing, you're killing them. You're killing, maybe your nerves aren't in your fingers. Maybe you burn those nerves that run to your fingers and your arms. So you're not shaking too bad. But tell me about that. Like how, how, how, how do you make it happen? If I were going to, if someone were to come to me and say, you know, I get really a fever really bad and how can I cure it? Well, you can never cure. Well, I suppose some guys can, I can't, I still get a little nervous, but really it's not, if you start telling yourself, I'm not going to get nervous. It's, you know, you can't control your emotions. However, what you can do is learn to shoot well in spite of your emotions.

And the way I did that is, is, uh, by shooting tournaments, you know, I shot tournaments for 20, 30 years. Uh, and you know, when you're shooting in world level, world level competition, you are just as scared as you are when there's a buck, when you're shooting that last day or that shoot off or whatever, and you're still going to be very nervous. But what I've found is, is you can actually teach yourself to, to be extremely nervous and still shoot well. And, and, you know, I, I know that sounds counterintuitive, but, but you really can. Um, but it takes a lot of practice. And, and what I would suggest to people is, you know, go out and, and shoot competition. Uh, you know, you don't have to be good to shoot competition. You can shoot competition, not be very good at all, but you've got to make the competition count.

You know, whether it's betting your buddy 10 bucks on a shot or whatever, you know, you have to, there has to be something at stake and it might not be as, as intense. It is when you're shooting at a big buck, but it still teaches you how to perform, uh, even when there's a lot of pressure. And that's the bottom line is, is performing even when there is pressure. And once you've taught yourself that it becomes a little more instinctual. So everything is, is happening. Whereas a lot of guys, they just melt down because they haven't practiced anything that, that, uh, creates that same sort of anxiety. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to duplicate that anxiety. Yeah. Well, you can never duplicate that particular anxiety, but you can get close. Certain anxiety. You can have the same sort of things and you can burn. Okay.

And then, then it becomes really, uh, like with a target archer shot, you know, you got the, whatever, five, 10 steps of, of shooting a good arrow. And when you go through those steps in your mind as you're, as you're shooting, um, really, you're going to be shaking a little bit more, but as long as you, you can actually shake quite a bit. I know because I do it all the time. You can shake quite a bit and make a really good shot. Yeah. If you maintain good form and the problem people have is they don't maintain good form when they are nervous. And if you can maintain good form when you're nervous, you can still make a good shot. What, uh, since you brought up the steps, I mean, can you just blurt them out real quick? Like what are the steps to shooting a good arrow? Well, you know, everyone has a different series of steps, but you know, for me, I've shot competition for so long.

I kind of skipped the first few steps, which is put your hand in the bow the proper way, you know, uh, you know, uh, uh, draw the bow back a certain way. And then of course you anchor those steps have become, and for guys that have shot a lot, those steps are kind of, the steps that are extremely important to me are, are you shooting the right yardage? Do you know the yardage? Are you using the right pin? And, and I know this sounds simple, but I have used the wrong pin. I have not picked a spot. I've shot at the whole animal. So pick a spot, use the right pin, make sure that you know the yardage. Okay. If it's, let's say it's 43 yards. Okay. Are you using your 40 yard pin? Yes. Is it gapped one third of the way between your 40 and your 50? Yes. Okay. Those are huge steps, huge steps. And lastly, I tell myself patience, patience, because what happens for me, and I'm imagining

it probably happens for most people is you get a 200 inch buck in front of you and there is some sort of anxiety deep within your psyche that wants you to shoot because you've waited your whole life for this moment. And that buck's going to run away. You just know he's going to run away. Something's going to happen in the next three seconds if you don't get that arrow off. So they yank the trigger. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's, it's, it's those steps plus patience, patience, patience, squeeze that trigger, patience, follow through and you're done. Um, very good. But you know, those, it sounds very simple, but it's not when your brain's on fire. Yeah. When you're sitting here and in December, they're good to talk through. And then, uh, you got to do it because in August when he is staring at you and he's about ready to swirl, you're right.

You have to follow him still because your, your body takes over from your brain a lot of times. Well, and I've found that you spend, you spend three months scouting and, and hunting and, and whatnot. And it all leads up to one moment. You know, it's very important that you've got those steps down, like what you're saying. Just that's, I mean, you've got months and a lot of gas money and tag money and anything else that goes into the hunt hinging on, on, uh. Execution. Execution. Well, exactly. And, and, you know, you asked me what's important. And, and one thing I didn't mention, I mentioned just briefly as patients, one of the, this is going to sound really silly, but one of the things that, that I do, uh, and I think one of the things that's helped me a great deal is, uh, when I'm hunting, I actually have this

little saying that I use over and over and over again that, you know, I tell myself and, and it's silly, but it's patient seldom goes unrewarded. And, you know, with mule dare, especially not so much with elk, but with mule dare, especially, uh, I can look back at, geez, almost every big buck I've ever killed. And think how patience has, has allowed me to kill that buck. And then I can look at all the ones that got away and I can see how a lack of patience caused me to screw that up. So, you know, just, you know what, you do not have to kill that buck right now. You do not have to kill that buck in the next hour. You don't even have to kill it today. You don't even have to kill it tomorrow, but something inside of me just screams that I got to get this thing done. You got to get it done. He's right there. Good grief. He's huge.

He's been what you've been waiting for for the last five years. Yeah. I want him now. And you just have to make yourself be patient. Don't do anything stupid. How have you found, Randy, some of your bow hunting styles or methods, how do they change from the different states you're hunting from the strip to Nevada? Maybe they're somewhat similar in those states, but from there to say Colorado, Ohio country, I mean, you know, it's easy to say, kill them where you find them, you know, all those types of things. But there is quite a few differences. And how do you, how does your patience change or does it, depending on, you know, the terrain and where you're at and all that? Well, we'll take, we'll take, well, let's just take Nevada and Colorado. Okay. In Nevada, what typically happens is your buck, you're finding your buck early in the morning. You know, you're hunting in the, in the summer.

It's hot there and those bucks might be out for five minutes after it gets light. They may be out for two hours after it's light. But one thing, and you're oftentimes finding them a mile or two away. So, you know, I'm talking about patience now in Nevada, in those situations, you find one of those bucks out in the burn, you know, and he's, he's a hundred yards out into the burn and you know, he's going to go back into the pick junipers and that's it for the end of the day until the end of the day. Well, patience goes out the window right there. You're running to the tree line. I'm literally running as fast as I can to get in position. And then, and then once I get in position, you know, in the edge of the trees, and then all of a sudden you click from, you click from, you know, a hundred miles an hour to a crawl. And then, and then all of a sudden patience comes into effect.

You know, you kind of have to know when to run and, and, and, and when to crawl. And, and, uh, that's hard because once you, what's really hard for me psychologically, anyway, mentally is, is okay. I've ran all the way down here. Let's say it's a mile and a half. I've got down here. Dad gum, he's still out there. He's still out there. And then just to go boom. To like, okay, I got to move like the hands of a clock right now. Cause I'm actually where he can might see me through these trees. It's really hard to make that transition. Then you talk about Colorado. Now, Colorado, a lot of times, uh, where I'm hunting, the deer might just go into a little copse of trees, or they might go up into some rock, uh, or occasionally they'll bed right out in the open. And so now it's a different game. You've got, you know, you've got all day to kind of, to get over there, get in position.

And, you know, one thing that a lot of people don't realize, and you guys know it, of course, but a lot of people don't realize, you know, they get up in the morning and they go out and hunt in the morning. Cause that's when the deer are active, of course. And then they get up and well, they go home and take a nap. They don't do anything at noon. And then they go out again in the evening and hunt in the evening. Well, I don't know if it's because hunters only hunt in the morning or the evening, but you know, if you spend a whole lot of time with older age class deer, you know, you're hunting say one deer and you're watching him all day, or at least you're watching the country he's in all day, it is remarkable how much time these older age class bucks spent in the middle of the day up and feeding. Feeding. Yeah. Nobody's out there. They do.

Nobody's out there and there's deer standing right out in the middle of the open. And you didn't even see him that morning. Cause he wasn't in the open. And it's like, seriously, why didn't I know this 30 years ago? No, it's true. For the last 30 years I've been, I've been, you know, I've been sleeping in the shade when these big bucks are out feeding. So anyway, my point is when I'm in Colorado, I'll wait. I'd say half the, I'd say a good half the deer or more than half the deer I've killed in Colorado. I've killed in the middle of the day. I just get on them, sit there. I don't get on them, on them, but I get within striking distance. The winds are so variable up there. I don't ever get to where, depends on how long it's been since I've showered. Like I've been backpacked up in there for four to five days and I smell like an old pair of gym socks.

I, I, uh, I won't get within 500 yards of them, but, but, you know, if, if, if that's my first day out and I showered that morning, I'll get within 300 yards of them. Um, but then I'll, I'll, I'll be close enough to striking when they get up, they'll get up. You know, usually not before 10, but 11, 12, one, somewhere in there, they're going to get up and they'll feed for a good half an hour at least. And boy, they're so vulnerable because they, they're so relaxed. You know, they, they've had, they're, they're in some craggy place. They've been able to look at all the country for the last six hours. They've been bedded down and, and they are just so relaxed and they stand up, they start eating and, and they don't even look around there as much as they do in the, in the morning. You know, they just, they just kind of, yeah, there's nothing here.

I'm just going to eat and there's no hunters out at that time. Yeah. Yeah. And they're vulnerable. Just like you said, I think what you're saying is a hundred percent true. A hundred percent. Absolutely. Seen it. Yeah. That's crazy. And so what do you think you're, I mean, a third of your bucks you kill in midday, half your bucks. In Colorado, I'd say that half of them are from 10 o'clock to say three o'clock in the afternoon. So let's say you don't. And a lot, and you know, that, that may not just be because they're up and feeding at that time. Half of it is in Colorado. It takes you so dadgum long to get to where they are. You spot them and you know, it could be a, it could be a four hour hike to get over to where they are. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And so you just happened to get over there and that's, you know, you, you're finally over there and that's when you kill them.

Yeah. That's crazy. You got any crazy, crazy fun stories for us, whether it be hunting bears with Tommy Hoffman or, or. You know, Tom is a known liar. I hope you realize that. Oh, we know. Okay. Well, we just want to give you the opportunity to set it straight. I'm glad Tom's the only one you talk to because I've got a lot more stories than that. Or Dirk. I don't know. We got to. This is a, okay. Tom Hoffman. For those of you that don't know Tom Hoffman, he's like my bow hunting hero. He's, I think he's killed every sheep in the whole world with his bow. Just a really good guy. Anyway. So Dirk, he had to invite Tom Hoffman and I up to Alaska. He goes up to Prince of Willow, the island to hunt black bears. I had never hunted black bears. I thought, you know, something I'll do when I'm old. I'll sit in between the stand and the black bears. And I'm this hotshot target archer, right? Yeah.

And anyway, so I go up there with Dirk and Tom. We have all sorts of fun. I mean, we're catching. Oh my gosh. You're eating crab legs every night because you're, you know, you set out crab pots in the morning and, and we're eating halibut. We're catching halibut. We're, we, Jack Frost, Tom and I hiked out into this lagoon. You got to hike out this place where they used to have an oyster bed. We're plucking these oysters that are, oh, they're 12 inches long. And, and, you know, we're frying them up in butter. And it's, that, that's not part of the story, but it's a very cool experience. But anyway, where you're going with this. No, you're talking about us. We're not talking anymore. Tom says, Hey, can I bid you in here? Let's go up this stand. I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. No problem. And so we climb up in this, this tree stand, you know, we motorboat out there, you know, in the ocean.

And then we climb up in this tree stand and, and, uh, Dirk had been up there, you know, for several weeks and he had been baiting. And so we're sitting in this tree stance, 10 yards from this bait. And, and first of all, first of all, it was very cold. It was very cold. And this, he's already setting up the story for the excuse. For the end. We've heard a couple of versions. They were very close to each other. So kind of reminds me of George on Seinfeld. It was very cold. Do they know about shrinkage? No, that's not where I'm going with this, but it was very cold. Okay. And so anyway, I'm sitting in this tree stand. Tom is in the tree stand directly above me. I mean, his feet are kind of, you know, at my head and, uh, and, uh, this big bear starts coming in. We can see him coming in for a while and he's a big bear and, uh, he's basically eye level with us.

And then he has to kind of come down this little hill to come to the bait. And I'm just like, Oh God, this is a big bear. He's right there. You talk about buck fever. But I did mention it was really cold. Yeah. So I started shaking and I'm sure it had nothing to do with how big this bear was, but I am like shaking, visibly shaking. And this bear comes in and he's 10 yards away. He's positioned perfectly. His head's in, you know, heads looking straight away from us. I draw back. It's 10 yards away. I thought, you know what? It's kind of getting dark. I'm going to shoot this bear right in the heart. So, you know, he'll die within sight.

That was the plan on this. So I can't lie about it now because it's documented. But so anyway, I shoot and I have a man. I nailed him. And he runs over the hill. Tom goes, uh, I think he missed. I said, Oh no. I, are you serious? No. Miss? No.

Anyway, we, we get down there. Myer's. Blood perfect. Yeah. Yeah. And well, and what no one told me and I sort of realized, and I did, I got another story for you. Like this one. I, uh, I didn't realize, and this is my excuse. And I'm, this is my story and I'm sticking to it, but I didn't realize they had like six inches of hair hanging down in the spring. And I aimed like six inches above his, what I thought was his belly lining shot right through there. Anyway, my shaking had nothing to do with it. And I know, we know Tommy and Dirk and no one knows two. I don't know how long that's been since that happened, but I'll bet that comes up often when you guys are. It might be daily. It might be. I had, I had brown hair back then. That's how long ago it was. Those guys are characters and they are not going to let you. Forgive that. That was before angle compensating range finders. Oh yes.

There's a hundred excuses we could come up and help you with. I did not, I did not have a range finder with me. So I thought it was 10 yards. It could have been 12. It could have been 14. There you go. Once again, you've got to always use the range finder. Always. Always.

Anything else? Anything else? Those are good ones. You know, we got tipped off on that one a little bit because I didn't know if Randy Ohmer ever missed. We do not have time enough to talk about all my misses. Yeah. Speaking of which, does Randy Ohmer miss? You know, yes. The interesting thing is, is, well, I'll tell you another story. The very first time I went elk hunting with a bow and arrow, I had a six point bull coming up the ridge, walking right at me. I stepped behind a, which is a four foot ponderosa pine in this elk. You know, I come to full draw on the cell, walks out, stops at 22 yards. I stepped it off afterwards. And we're right on top of this kind of knife edge ridge. And I shoot. And I saw my arrow go four feet over this elk's back. And I could just still remember to this day, that arrow just sailing through the blue. Jeez. And I thought, what in the world just happened?

Yeah. And I know what happened now. I just lost it. But, but yes, if I miss, yes. Yeah. And the, you know, I told you, my brother and I had six arrows, uh, six air. I think I told you when we first, when we first, yeah, we had 22, 19 arrows. We had six arrows each. And the first day we ever went elk hunting, uh, this before, uh, this the year before I shot at that bull, but I shot it. Well, I shot it more than six cows, but I shot six at six different cows, my six arrows. And they were all within 30 yards and I missed every one of them. I mean, good thing is I missed them clean. And it was so bad that I actually went back and found two of my arrows and went hunting. You could legitimately blame it on the gear back then. I was going to say finger tap and a finger glove. Might not even had a glove. Might have been bare fingers. I don't know. You know, yeah.

And I think the sun was in my eyes. The wind was blowing. Yeah. You're hungry. You're thinking about Daniel. And I think I had the beginning of, of, uh, Parkinson's or something. I don't know. But yeah, it was not, it was not pretty. Well, you, so yeah, Randy's missed a lot. You guys have done about everything. Tell me, didn't you develop a broadhead there years back or. Well, yeah, my, my, uh, my brother and I, you know, we've always been accuracy fanatics and, uh. Uh, we, we kind of independently had came up with some ideas for different broadheads. Cause we wanted a broadhead that would really shoot straight. Yeah. And, and so many of these broadheads, uh, they just have way too much structure. So anyway, we came up with some, some pretty darn good ideas. And my brother, uh, took, took one idea, which is mostly his idea. And, and, and he, uh, he refined it, refined it, refined it.

And we were kind of talking about maybe doing it together, but I, I told him, you know, I've always avoided being like in the archery industry because I've seen so many of my friends that have, you know, you, you, you get in the archery industry and all of a sudden you're, you're, uh, you're, you're hobby becomes work. So anyway, uh, Rusty took it and, um, developed it. And, uh, still to this day, I think it's the best broadhead ever built. Um, I still, uh, I still use it. Um, and he, he, you know, Rusty's a retired dentist. He did not want to, he did not want to be involved in the manufacturing process. So he, he let, uh, Dan Evans, uh, take it and, and, and work with it. And, you know, Dan, of course, sold his company and there was a lot of other things that kind of went on. So it went out of production.

But the good news is, um, I can't tell you exactly when and, and, and, but very soon you'll see the head out again. Really? Uh, yeah. That's awesome. Is it still going to be called Ulmer Edge or is that not known yet? You know, I doubt it. I doubt it. Um, because it's, it's, uh, it's going to be manufactured by another company and, and, but it will be, it will be the Ulmer Edge. The same broadhead. Uh, I actually killed my two deer this year with the prototypes. Wow. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Good deal. So, so it's, it's really good. Stay tuned, I guess. Yeah. Now, now I just have to, you know, I, we don't have to do this on the podcast, but Adam, you, you, you, you kind of pissed me off again in September or no, I guess it was August when you shot that deer. Oh, I don't know. It was like a hog. I don't know how shooting one deer can make you, I don't know how shooting one deer can

piss you off because that's your two or three. I just had a question. People were to get pissed off. Wouldn't we hate Ulmer by now? Oh yeah. I mean, oh, by the way, I shot both of my bucks. Okay. And he's not shooting 160 inch deer. With the prototype. With the prototype. So I had to test him out. So I tested him out on 200 inch bucks. 220 inches. And by the way, I'm pissed at you because you killed, you killed one of my bucks and I could have had three. I mean, this is unbelievable, Randy. What, no, what, what was the mainframe on that buck? I, that's the question I really had for you. I, cause I looked at the mainframe on that buck and it looks like it's 210 inches. Not quite. He's, he's low 200s. Uh, he's 221, the total gross, but doesn't have big eye guards. Yeah. His eye guards are very short, you know, inch and a half.

His eye guards cause he's got all that stuff hanging off the sides. Yeah. You know, and so. I'd rather take the eye guards and hang them up off the G2s. Yeah. Personal AG3s. I've got an eye guard fetish. Yeah. So. Really? Yeah. Oh yeah. I like big eye guards too. You know, it's an interesting thing. All the big bucks I killed, I don't think before I killed them, I could tell you how long their eye guards were. Yeah. I could tell you every point they had, every sticker they had though. Yeah. So. No, it was, it was a fun trip. No, that was that. Of course, Jason and Chris and everybody was there to. To film it and be there a part of it. It was. Oh, you got it on film? Oh yeah. Yeah. It was. The hilarious part. Well, I don't know how much I want to tell about Adam's story, but the funniest thing about it, he's like, he comes up and you, you guys can have this archery deer hunting.

Oh, we're talking about the nerves. After he shot the deer? No, the deer's dead. The deer's dead. And I'm, I walked up to it and I'm just, I'm trying to get my jaw up off the ground. It was one of those, it was one of those days, the first day, it was one of those days you described. It wasn't right. I got about 70 yards of the deer. Yeah. And he fed into those jungle aspens you're talking about and there's no, nothing you're going to do. That was it. Backed out. Backed out. And went back in the, in the general zip code that night. Um. Did you have any competition? No. No, but there was just. People around. There was activity because that. People driving around. I mean, you just have people scouting for Buffalo, scouting for muzzle, scouting for rifle. You just have activity. And pretty soon they realized, oh, there's the, there's Jason, Adam, the epic guys.

What are they hanging around here every day for? And so there's that. But as far as like, if guys were to see you in Colorado, you'd probably be like, there's probably a good one here. You know, at some point we got to do a podcast on that. Yeah. Like how to go incognito. I listened to a podcast you guys did. Excuse me for interrupting you, but I got to get this in. And, uh, you know, Robbie Denning, I don't know if you remember the podcast, but you were interviewing me. He just wrote that, that good book. By the way, that's a very good book. He wrote, uh, and he was talking about, he was talking about this recurrent dream that he had or nightmare. He's just giving me grief. He's trying to fucking come up there. See you sitting there in the truck. Here comes Jason. Pulls up Jason's car at the trailhead. He's just giving me grief. No. Yeah. We've all had that dream.

Well, yeah, but you know, you think about it and you think about, uh, you know, especially you, cause you're involved in all the different aspects of the sport. And when they see one of you guys's face, it's like, Oh really? There's two, there's, they have a, they have a negative thoughts because they think, Oh God, he's going to shoot the biggest deer in there. And then they have positive thoughts. No, they don't. Oh. He's in here for a reason. He's in here cause there's a really big deer here. So what I do is I park my truck in a different spot and then I borrow it by this. Do you? Yeah. We've, we've left trucks in spots overnight to smoke screen. There's, there's no, it's all, it's all above board and I'm not ashamed of it either. We've smoke screened it when you had to, whether we're guiding a client or hunting something

ourselves, uh, get dropped off at the trailhead, you hike in and have someone just go park your truck over there where you think everyone wants to be. You know, that would be a good podcast for you guys to do is just how to be stealthy. Well, we'll have you back on. We're going to do it with you. Cause we know you've got to have some tactics. You've got to have some tactics. I've often wondered what the penalty is for putting another state license plate on your own vehicle because you know how they view non-residents like Wyoming hate Utah guys. Colorado does not like Utah guys. I don't want to have a Utah plate. I don't. Do you know what everyone in Colorado calls guys? Utahds. Utahds. Utahds. Yeah. I know. We've heard it. I know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I call Adam that. Adam calls me that. Yeah. So. All right. So, yeah. So Adam, we're walking up to this giant buck.

Oh, so we got to tell a little bit more because of, you can't just say I'm sick of hunting big deer because that sounds very spoiled, but it had been one of those days that at the second day at daylight, boom, barely, I could see the deer before you could barely even see. And so it was one of those game on from daylight and it was, you know, one of those all day long, you're, you're close enough, very stiff, strong South wind. So you got close. I was in position. And then. I mean, you're not, you're tight with it. Yeah. I mean, within 80 yards for 10 hours, the stiff wind, probably closer than you want. I know. All right. He moves the right way. He's dead. And, uh, wind could swirl. Starts coming, coming down rain and hail a few times. Fast forwarding. You just, all that anxiety throughout all the day. Finally comes, he stands up and he feeds right to me.

And this is one of those times you didn't have to, I didn't have to range him. He was 20 yards. You should always range him. I know. But I knew it was, I knew it was top pin low. How's that, Jason? Yeah. Top pin low. All right. Okay. So, you know, I just want to know, Adam, you must be really close to the Lord. He is. The reason I say that is because you walk out in Arizona 15 minutes. You know how many, you shoot now a giant elk. This was Adam's year. You go up there and you have a, you have a giant deer walk to you. You know how many times I've had a giant deer get up and feed? Never. Towards me in my life. Never. Never in my life either. It's one of those times he fed away all day long until he got in thick trees. And he's out of sight from me, all the spotters, everybody. And I just had nothing but do just to sit where I was. And I had it happen to me once.

Randy, if you hunt long enough, it'll happen. Yeah. Once.

Adam and I both had it happen. Keep hunting there. Keep hunting, Randy. It'll happen. So fast forward. I shot and the deer blows out of there. You know, we see blood going everywhere, but it's getting dark. And I could tell it was a little bit, maybe like you described one of your deer a bit ago. I need to get another arrow on that deer because I didn't want to leave him overnight, even if he's dead right there. Got rain. It's velvet. Coyotes are going to destroy the velvet. You know, I'm just thinking, I'm like, I got to, it's one of those, you just made a judgment call to press a little bit. You didn't have an hour and a half to wait or hour or whatever. And so after 30 minutes, and there's a lot of blood, you know, I came up to him and he was, he was alive, put another arrow in him.

But just the whole emotion of all that, after tracking him and you're trying to beat daylight, you kill him, you sit down. And I know you've been there. You just want to sit down there and just throw your hands up like, just the elation. And I just almost was like, yeah, if somebody would have offered to pack my bow off the mountain that night, I almost would have said it's yours. No, five bucks would have bought that bow. He's like, this archery, I don't know how you do it, Carter. I'm done. I am done. And then an hour later, he's like, you know, I've been thinking. There's a couple of archery tags. Oh, yeah. It was just, it was a moment. It was the anxiety. I don't manage my anxiety that the target panic, the whole closeness, you know, hearing your own heart literally beating out of your chest. And that's probably what drives us to do what we like to do so much.

But that, that just overcame me. Well, and Adam's killed 200-inch deer. But, but one like this, having a 220-inch deer, walk up to 20 yards, it does something to a guy. And, and, and in slow motion over, you know, 20, 30 minutes, he's feeding my way in thick, thick oak brush. And so there's, I can't shoot him. I can't shoot him at 40 or 50. I'm only going to shoot him at 18 or whatever he pokes out at. So it was just one of those moments. But you know what, Adam? I'm just to go back. The, in, I'm going to get, I'm going to wax a little philosophical here. But one of the things that drives us to do what we do, I believe, is that we don't have a lot of true, strong emotions in our life anymore. You know, before, you know, thousands of years ago, we had fear. We had anger. We had all sorts of things, warfare. In our modern, comfy existence, we don't have that.

Those emotions that you experience right there are overwhelming. They are, yeah. And for people that haven't done, you don't get it with a rifle. You don't. I mean, you might, but it's not the same. No. Because you would have shot that deer as soon as you saw it. Yep. Those emotions that you experience, I mean, and, you know, Carter will testify to this. Once you've experienced that, and when you're in the moment, it is almost overwhelming. You just want it over what you've said. No more of this. I can't stand it. My heart can't handle it. Yeah, that's what you feel about. But you know what? Next year, you're going to be going back because you know what? It is a rush, and you're going to want it again. It is an emotionally.

You will not experience, you know, unless at the birth of your child or the death of your father or whatever it is, you will not have those kinds of emotions hardly ever in your life. You know, and like Jason said, an hour later, we were talking about what archery deer tags we're going to draw next year. It was just the, you know, that whole flood right there. It finally happened. You're wore out, too. Watch the deer for two, three, four weeks, day, light till dark. You know, just the whole investment that was into that, that specific deer. I had no other deer I wanted to hunt. If I had to go to a plan B, there was not a plan B that I really wanted. I mean, there was other 200-inch deer. Yes. It's a good unit. But yes, but not a deer that had your heart set in. Yes.

Yeah, when do you have that much on the line, that much time invested where a moment, in a moment, you can either blow it or you can have success or you can blow it. Yep, that's right. You know, other than, you know, making the winning basket and on your high school basketball team for the state championships. You know, when do you ever have that much on the line? Only one five-second period. Yeah, there's, they pass you, they can pass you by pretty fast. One thing I wanted to ask, Randy, kind of a two- or three-part question. A, do you ever kill enough giant bulls, enough giant bucks, and what is left on your list that you haven't accomplished that you want to? You know, obviously you'll take another 240-inch deer. I mean, and I get that. So is there something you really want to accomplish that you haven't, or you just want to kill more giant bucks and bulls?

You know, when you ask if you've got another, if you've got an, if you get tired of shooting big deer or you're going to quit shooting big deer, you know, we'll go back to the shoes analogy. Ask my wife if she, you know, she's got 40 pairs of shoes. Ask her if she's never going to buy another pair of shoes. And if she buys a pair of shoes, don't ask her why she bought another pair of shoes, or she's going to look at your collection of meal deer. Yes, yes. No, no, you know, it's, God, it's just, you guys understand it, and most of your listeners understand it, it is in your blood. It's, you know, it's what I, it's what I really look forward to. And, and the one thing that I'm looking, that I want to accomplish is, I took Zach, I, you know, Zach's dad wasn't into hunting. And he's, Zach is my sister's son. He's my nephew, for those of you that don't know.

And, and I've been hunting, taking Zach hunting since he was seven or eight years old. And, and he has just turned into a phenomenal hunter. And he hasn't been able to hunt mule deer with me. My, my sons, Jake, my son's a rifle hunter. He's really never got into hunting with a bow. But Levi, my youngest son, is, is, you know, real serious elk hunter. And, and, you know, elk hunting here, you know, has been not easy. It's been relatively easy. And we can usually get it done fairly quickly. Although the last couple he shot on the last day, my goal is to take, and Levi has never been able to go out of state with me. And there are very few tags in Arizona where you can go shoot a really big buck that, and, and plus scenery, like you can get in Colorado. My goal is to teach Levi, and Jake if he wants to, but I don't know if he has a desire, to have Levi go with me when he's out of college.

And be able to go on these late August, 30 September, uh, high country mule deer hunts. He goes scouting with me every year. And so we really end up looking at them. And, and, uh, this year I got a real cool video where he's stocking up on these big bucks, you know, before, you know, in August. Yeah. Just stocking up with no bow and he gets really close to these deer. And he was so excited and I was so excited. So my goal is to get him a really big buck with his bow and he's phenomenally sneaky. He's a phenomenal shot. He shot competitive archery for a while. And, and, but really just to have him up there with Zach and I doing it together with us. Cause really I need, what I really am trying to do is, you know, as I get older, I'm not going to be able to get up there in those mountains.

There's going to, you know, you hate, you hate to think that it'll ever happen, but there's going to come a point where I'm not going to be able to do it anymore. And Zach's going to need a new partner. So what I really like is I'd like for them to partner up and continue, uh, slaying big mule deer. Yeah. So does that mean, so you've deer and elk for you is fine for the time, but there's nothing else. You know, whether it be the sheep or, you know, you're, I mean, you're obviously very focused and we know that. And that's what I think almost everybody associates you with is giant bulls and mule deer, which not a lot of people that do both of those either. That's a lot. I'm not trying to. One of them is more than. More than most people can handle. So, but you know, you've, you, I'm sure you've hunted sheep and then different things and a bunch of other animals, but, but you're not nothing.

You want to go redo and still go north. Like I've killed, well, I've killed one and three quarters slams, uh, sheep slams with my bow. Uh, well, actually, um, you know, one of those, one first dog sheep I killed was with a rifle years and years ago. But, um, so I really don't have a desire. If I draw, what I really want, if you guys can help me out as Montana sheep tag. Okay. Yeah. So there's a, that's probably not going to happen, but, uh, no, really I was before my kids got old enough that they started hunting. Cause man, when they started hunting, I kind of timed everything perfectly for my kids. And, uh, back then you could actually apply your kid for a bonus point, even though they weren't legal to hunt. Oh, I did it. And so by the time my kids were, my kids were 10 years old. They had 10 bonus points.

Plus grandma and grandpa, mom, both grandmas, both grandpas had, uh, points to men or to them. And so those kids, I mean, when they started hunting, I mean, they had bison tags, which is impossible to get in there. There's a lot of sheep tags in there as long as they had elk tags every year. And so my hunting went from, from purely a selfish endeavor to like, are you serious? I got to pack out another frigging elk for you guys. Um, now they're in college. So, but my point was before they started hunting, I had, uh, you know, almost completed my super slam with my bow. And, and, uh, really what I've been doing the last few weeks is kind of looking at the few animals I need left and figuring out, which son I was going to take on each of these hunts. If they want to go, I assume they will, uh, of that remaining hunts I, I need to do. So, uh, you know, they're kind of obscure things.

They're like, I need to shoot a, uh, well, I need to shoot three caribou and I need to shoot a, uh, a rose of elk. So, you know, things that, that aren't that difficult, you know, relatively. Just got to make time and, and put, not hunt a mule deer. Yeah. It costs you a mule deer to go do those. I find that out. I am not going to. That's one thing I will not forego. You know, people ask me, well, geez, why haven't you ever been to Africa? And I'm like, I, I really, I, you, you gave me an African safari or, or, or, and said, you can't hunt Colorado high country this year. I'd say you can take your Africa safari and stick it. Well, besides that, there's not enough prototypes of that Omer edge to, to go to Africa. You'd have to have, you'd have to have 40, 200 broadheads. Well, I personally don't have the space in my house for, for any animals.

And, and, and where am I going to put an elephant or a giraffe? I'm not sure. Yeah. Yeah. No, we get it. Well, good. Well, is there anything else, Randy? I mean, we've taken up two plus hours of your time. The only thing I want to say to you guys is man, congratulations. You, you, you guys, you know, for those of you that just listened to these podcasts, uh, and, and I wasn't put up to this, you guys have got to, you know, Jason has been helping me with, with stuff for these 20 years. Jason, when did you guys start? A little over 20 years ago. Yeah. I mean, we were even working on those book cliff tags that we were talking about. You and I dealt with clear back when he's, I think you built my dad a bow. I built your dad, well, your dad wanted to get a little more serious about archery and he said, build me a bow that I can't break. I said, okay.

So I built him up a bow with a sight real close to the riser and a arrow rest that he couldn't bend with a rock. And, uh, you know, and I, I think he did well with it. Yeah, I think he did. I think he's guys doing a phenomenal job and, and, uh, God, you really need to look at their stuff. Uh, the magazine and congratulations. Your magazine has been out for what a year now, a little longer than you. Yeah. Just so we did. So we started last December. Yeah. We started the magazine December ish. And then we, we listened to podcasts starting probably in January, a month later. And then we decided we had to do a podcast just because there was guys like you that we needed to learn from and, and that the world could, could glean some valuable information from that. You can't really put in a story format, you know? And so we, you know, podcasts are great.

Cause you know, I listened to them when I'm doing, when I'm running or, or, or riding my bike or driving. It's, it's great. Yeah. Yeah. But no, you guys are doing a phenomenal job with the magazine. It's looking really good. Well, thank you. We sure appreciate it. And, and, uh, and of course it's always nice to see, I'm glad you're on Instagram. Now we can see what you're killing on a regular basis without, uh, searching you out and quizzing you. You know, we get to stalk you Instagram, Insta stock. That's it. That's it. So, uh, but you know, I've been, we've been following you around for a long, long time and, and, uh, you're just a killer and there's so much that the hunting world can learn from you. We'll, we want to have you on again, but we just want to tell you how much we appreciate you taking time out of your schedule and, you know, for a guy like you to, to be willing

to entertain our listeners with us here for a couple hours, just kind of special for us. So thanks a lot, man. We really do appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks. And congratulations on all your successes this year. Uh, you know, I, I've seen more of Adams and I have for you, Jason. Oh, it was a terrible year. I'm not picking on you by not, not pulling your horn, but, uh, you know, Adams been, uh, you know, he's kind of be cliffed you a little bit this year. I just hate it. One out of 20 years is not like, well, that's, that's about what the ratio is here because it was finally a year where everything lined up for us. We had a great year, took 12 sheep hunters and just took some great rams and, and, uh, it was also a year I, you know, with Epic making up, I, I actually guided less, um, variety. I took plenty of sheep hunters, but wasn't spread out as much all over the place and had

some more time and had these tags that I could dedicate some time to. Had some points built up? Like Arizona? Yeah. Arizona. This was coming. It was the year I knew I was going to go this year. The archery dates were going to kick late. I had it picked three, four years ago and just some things like that. Yeah. You don't get, you know, that was four, 12, 14 years in the making. So pretty funny. Adam comes in the office. Yeah. Yeah. Adam comes in the office the other day and he's like, guys, I've got a problem. We're like, what do you mean? He goes, I got four deer at the butcher shop.

Well, and there's already been about four put in there and two out. I think I have to call this unfair because, you know, guys like Jason and I, you know, we're kind of, we're uneducated hacks. And, you know, a guy that has a degree or actually two degrees, don't you have like two degrees in wildlife management? Probably a master's in 14 different degrees, you know, or 14 different subject matter. Is it right that a guy that's that well educated, they shouldn't, they should ban them from hunting. Yeah. You know, because they just know too much about wildlife. It's just not right. I needed to do that to learn something. I wasn't just going to be picked up on my own. I had to go to six years of school to figure something out, I guess.

Guys, I really appreciate you having me on. No, thank you. It's been great, Randy. Thanks a lot. We'll do it again for sure. We'll think of some new topics, but that incognito stealth mode is going to be one of them next time. Sounds good. All right, Randy. Thanks. We appreciate you. We just want to let everybody know, we've got a lot of listeners out there that aren't a member of our service. We produce nine magazines a year. It's monthly, December through June. Talk about all the Western states, drawing on skill percentages, best units, and break it down for applying across the West. We're also available to visit. We help guys develop short-term, mid-term, long-term hunt strategies, application strategies, as well as helping you buy landowner tags, hunts, and all kinds of different things that deal with Western big game hunting. So anyway, a lot of podcast information out there.

Of course, that's free and fun to listen to while you're traveling. But if you want the detailed information, join Epic Outdoors on epicoutdoors.com. It's $100 a year. And we get to visit about hunting. This is the time of year when we're not actually out in the field much. We are in the office 24-7, it feels like, and just cranking it out with a different magazine and visiting with guys over the phone and talking, hunting, and getting prepared for the fall. If you need another reason to join, right now through the end of February, if you join, we're giving away your choice, a doll sheep hunt to be entered in to win a doll sheep hunt or a mule deer hunt with us, the Epic Crew, or an elk hunt here in Utah with the Epic Crew. For anywhere that joins up until February 28th, you're entered in that. Or if you refer somebody, if you're already a member and you refer somebody that joins,

make sure that you let them know to tell them that you joined them. You'll have another name in the hat for that. There's no limit to the amount of times you can be entered or the amount of guys you can refer. But there are no way to buy tickets for this. So joining a membership or referring to somebody that does is the only way to get in. So EpicOutdoors.com, you can join online or give us a call at 435-263-0777.