EP 73: California Hunting and a World Record Ram with Jake Franklin

Big game hunting opportunities in California. He was old, he had a gray face, and he had a couple more chips, and he's broomed off like an inch on both sides of his horns. The random draw is done first, which is unique. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Adam Bronson here with the Epic Outdoors podcast, here today powered by Under Armour. Appreciate them being our title sponsor of our podcast. And all their support that they've given to Epic Outdoors from the very start. Make a great variety of camel in the UA Baron pattern, which is one of our favorites for the West. So we appreciate them. You can also watch some of our gear reviews and stuff on our Epic Outdoors YouTube page. But I want to thank Under Armour for that. Also want to give a shout out to one of our sponsors, a longtime supporter of us at Thompson Long Range, Scott and Mark Thompson. We've been affiliated with them for a long, long time. Some of our first long range guns. When long range was kind of becoming the thing, we were involved with Mark and their shooting system there.

And we appreciate their support of us, in our opinion. Very simple setup there. They're great about explaining their setup and their process with individuals as they have you at their course. Put your gun together, mount your scope, load the bullets, chronograph it, take it to the range, and you can just kind of simply gain the trust and confidence in the rifle that you're putting together there. So great, great family. Thompson, T-H-O-M-P-S-O-N, longrange.com. Or you can call them at 435-713-4248. Very knowledgeable. Very willing to help answer questions and maybe set you up with a course and time to come see what they put together for you. Today we've got a great podcast. Jason's actually up north. He's in Alaska hunting brown bear. So flying solo here today. Good luck to Jason up there. He wanted to be here.

Got a special guest with us here today, Jake Franklin with Kika Guide and Outfitting Services. How are you doing, Jake? Very good, very good. I appreciate you guys having me on. Hey, you bet. And Jason wanted me to make sure you personally knew that he wanted to be here. But he's doing, I guess, funner stuff today probably than sitting in an office just talking about hunting. He's getting after it. So appreciate you being on with us today. You know, Jake, I've known you for probably, I don't know, I'm guessing 10 years or more. We probably met in Reno. Sheep so. I imagine it's where we first met. And so, but maybe for some of our listeners, you are based in California. And that's what the topic for this conversation, this podcast is going to be on today is big game hunting opportunities in California.

If you're interested in applying in California and want more information about it, we cover it in our June magazine, which is actually online. If you go to your member account, log in, you can view the e-mag. The hard copy of the magazines are done being printed and are in the mail as we speak. So they'll be coming to you soon. The deadline to apply is June 2nd. So got just over a month there. Jump online now if you're eager to get checking it out. June magazine. And call us if you have any questions. Give us part of your background, Jake. Where you're from, where you've been throughout your life, how you got interested in hunting, and what influences kind of helped you get into it and whatnot. Yeah, yeah. So to make a long story short, I don't really come from a hunting background. You know, my dad hunted, you know, birds and the occasional deer hunt.

But I didn't come from a hunting background, so I wasn't born into outfitting or guiding. And I didn't even know that that was an industry growing up. And even through high school, I didn't even realize it was an industry. But I was raised very rural. I lived up in the mountains at 8,500 feet. You know, it was like 35 minutes to the nearest small town that was like under 30,000 people, you know.

And we grew up on a kid's camp. My dad was the camp director. And so we taught inner city kids how to ride horseback. And so I was kind of raised in the outdoor world and raised around horses and livestock.

And kind of teaching people how to live, you know, outdoors like that. Yeah. Kids especially that probably, those kids probably had no exposure to that. You were their only experience to something outside of the urban jungle, so to speak. Yep. And so we had all boys and girls clubs would send their kids up. And then the parents could come up and watch their kids ride horses and see what they learned that week and see their shelters they built and stuff. It was a pretty cool way to grow up. No, but how I got into hunting was actually in high school. I worked as a fishing guide on Big Bear Lake, both fly fishing and trolling. And I worked for this captain, I guess you'd call it. Like I was just a deckhand. But the captain I worked for used to be a rep for like a bunch of different outdoor brands.

And he's like, man, Jake, if you like this fishing guiding so much, you should look into hunting guiding.

You know, I had a background of like, I was pretty much raised in the wilderness, right? And my dad was on the search and rescue team. And I've been very savvy with outdoor skills, kind of being raised that way. And the guy's like, you should look into it, you know, and I was probably like 16. So I started to look into it. And then I saw that they have this thing called hunting guide school. And I'm like, me having no idea, right? Thinking if I want to get into this, like that's probably something I should do.

So I actually went independent study and did my high school quicker, tested out and finished high school, graduated, and then went to Montana to wilderness guide school. And I spent a few months up there all while working on a degree in wildlife management. And then I thought it was way too cold up there. To be honest with you, I was like done with the cold weather. And so I came back home. And right then when I came back home, I joined the search and rescue team in our local mountains. And somebody mentioned, oh, yeah, you know, there's this outfitter that does hunts up here. And I'm like, just tuned right in. And I'm like, there's an outfitter, like where I grew up in the warm mountains of Southern California. And so contacted them and then ended up being at the time like a legendary sheep hunter. And so I kind of fell into it and then started hunting.

And that's when I kind of started cutting my teeth in the sheep world. And California at the time was a great place to, you know, get a bunch of sheep under my belt. And then I started doing, you know, a bunch of rams in Nevada. And then people started like, you know, they started to like hunting with me. So then I started traveling all over, you know, Canada and Mexico and everywhere hunting sheep. And so in 2014, we started our own business with kind of like key notes on what we could see done better and more efficiently and have a more positive image. And so we ended up doing that and it's going really well. And that would be Kika, you know. Kika guides and outfitting services. So you mentioned sheep and that's what, that's probably, like I said, it's probably been 10 years ago when I met you first individually. And that's what I most normally associate you with.

But you've obviously, you know, throughout your life, you've hunted, you know, as you got more into hunting, you hunted the other species in California. And so how would you, let's talk just a general, you know, 30,000 feet overview of hunting in California. And what are some of the highlights and drawbacks? And then we'll dive into each species real quick. Yeah. So California, in general, people kind of overlook it and say, oh, you know, it's, you know, a liberal, liberalized state. And, you know, there's not much hunting to do or whatever else. It's pretty overlooked that if somebody was to set their goals on it and was able to draw the tags, of course, I think there's like booting crop quality in seven different species. So that's pretty hard to say, you know what I mean, for a lot of other places. We have all three kind of elk species.

You know, our Rocky Mountain elk, there's probably a 400-inch elk killed every year, whether it's down on Tahone Ranch or up in the northeastern zone. The Roosevelt's, we kill, you know, Boone and Crockett Roosevelt's every year. And the Tule elk, obviously, every record there's ever been has been in California. California dominates the record book in the Tule category. Right? Oh, we're the best. That's right. Hands down. No one even comes close. That's right. Yeah. But it is very unique. Three remaining, I guess we'll call them elk subspecies. And that's one of California's highlights, you know, for those that are chasing the North America 29 or whatever, they have to make a stop in California. There's no way around that for the Tule. They can get a Roosevelt in Oregon, Washington, B.C., places like that.

But it is the necessary stopping place if you're after that and a lifelong hunting goal. So it does make it unique. And blacktails are handy too, right? Sure, exactly. Similarly. And some guys will tie in their Roosevelt or their Tule elk with a blacktail, right? And then they can knock two things off on one hunt. Yeah. In California. And then the deer, you know, a deer is super seasonal, just like anywhere else. But for us to get the really big trophies, we need those migrations later on like the Rocky Mountain type deer. And in the more northern units, right? Yes. Because like once you get further south, we start mixing with like, I don't know if it's recognized yet or not, but that Baja blacktail down in Mexico. Yeah, all the subspecies you guys have, I guess. So just get the further south you go, everything gets smaller in general. Yeah. Deer wise. So. Yeah.

Closer to the equator, right? Mm-hmm. So. Well, yeah, there is an abundant opportunity. You know, obviously from a non-resident perspective, just it's a little bit harder to justify if you've not already been applying for years and have maximum points, you know, buying the hunting license and then the application fees. You can rack up a couple hundred bucks on that if you're doing, say, deer, elk, antelope, sheep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The difficulty with the non-resident is they can only draw up to one antelope, up to one elk tag, and sheep up to 10%, which currently equates to one this year for 2018. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, all of those species have preference point draws that, you know, could potentially influence that. But the random draw is done first, which is unique. You can read that in the regulations. So, you do have a chance, but it's not a set-aside.

And so, for some people, that's hard mentally to apply for something that's not a guarantee, even that a non-resident isn't going to get a tag. Yeah. And, you know, with the $200 upfront license slash application fees. But regardless of that, we have at Epic Outdoors a lot of residents of California, obviously, that live there, hunt a lot of the western states. And so, we get a lot of calls from residents about even their own state. Of course, a lot of residents are dialed in, know where they want to hunt, apply for their own units. But from a magazine standpoint, it's, you know, we cover, you know, everything from whatever perspective. In this case, the residents are a very, very important tool for them because we do have a lot of members. And so, we'd like to break that down today. And let's just start with sheep, I guess. You didn't really mention that, but I knew we'd get there.

Let's talk about California desert sheep and kind of the current status. Not a lot of changes from last year, 2017, to this year. Give me your general thoughts and then let's maybe just break down, go through each unit real quickly and talk about some specifics there and the hunts that you've done recently there. Yeah, perfect. Real quick, I'll just touch on what you said about the non-residents and sheep. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a non-resident has drawn a sheep tag in California in a few years. Yeah, and that's what I mean. It's not guaranteed. Yeah. So, you're applying for something that you could get, but there's a lot of residents applying and a lot of residents with a lot of points. And so...

Like, if you were a non-resident and you had max points in California, your odds, you know, like, I think it's been like 2012 or 13 since there's been a non-resident that's hunted in California. Yeah. And so, if you have max points, you almost have the same odds as a California resident with max points. But you need 16 points, right? And it depends if they do the random draw and, you know, a tag gets drawn, boom, your max points, you're not even in the draw. So, anyway, it's something to consider. It's not a no-brainer. For max points, it's hard for me to tell anybody to quit. I probably can't do that. But to start up now fresh, it's very hard for me to tell non-resident to do that. Yeah, I would agree with that. For sure. Anyway, I'll touch on some units.

Right now, I'll just kind of go by, like, the seasons, right? So, we have a hunt that starts in August. It's really early for a desert sheep hunt. But it's the high elevation hunt that's there in the whites. And the whites have, as far as hunting goes on the White Mountains, the weather is very, very, has a huge sway on pretty much if people are going to kill rams or not. And the rams will actually be down in the trees if it doesn't get a lot of moisture. And then you mix that with somebody going up there and never being in the White Mountains and having to park your truck at 6,500 feet and hunting at 13,000 feet. Yeah, it's totally brutal. Climb, yeah. And you're unique. You are permitted to use pack stock and horses in that, which is unique, right, for the whites hunt. Yeah, it was. I did that last year with the hunter, if I'm not mistaken. Yep, yep.

It was a big process to get the ability to go up and hunt off horseback. But we did it this year and were able to pass over 40 rams and make sure that we were shooting the exact ram that we wanted. And I've been hunting it since 2008. And it used to be you had to be a crazy person to pass a legal ram in the whites because you're so on edge and you're pushed so far. When you actually do get to the ram in there, realistically, like if you can glass proficiently, they're not that hard to find. But just getting to them is, I mean, unreal. So, you know, you could top out and they could be down at, you know, 9,500 feet on the opposite side. And so you've already come all the way up and there's no water and then you have to hike down the other side. Like you just can't do it, you know. And the statistics for the kill, you know, ratio or whatever in that unit shows that.

I think there was three years they didn't even kill a ram in the unit, you know. And there were some really, really keen hunters that hunted it. But, yeah, and it's been the demise of a couple outfitters as well, right? Well, it's just not the typical. I mean, we're talking about Rocky Mountain and Bighorn style hunts in some states, you know, like maybe Colorado.

Southern Wyoming. Yeah, a few parts of Wyoming, but even then, or New Mexico, you know, Latir or Wheeler Peak, places like that where you're, you know, Pecos Wilderness, 12,000 to 13,000 feet. Now we're talking desert sheep, which really doesn't change other than the fact that most people, especially if you're a California resident, you probably live within 500 to 1,000 feet elevation. Yeah. Most of the state. I mean, that's in general cases. So that's very hard to prepare for. And that's what you're talking about. Hunters drawing these tags. And even with horses. Yeah. Your horses are probably blowing up there, aren't they? They probably have some pretty good. Yeah. Yeah, it takes a long time to get anywhere up there. Yeah, but anyway, you guys killed a great ram, B and C type ram this last year. So it's, and 40 something rams on a hunt is incredible.

You can't ask for more than that, but that's a unit definitely that you're going to have to, is maybe not for everybody. It's the best way to put that, you know. Yeah. If you have, you're getting older, you're going to maybe have to put more, even though you got the horses, like you said, there's some places you may have to bail down straight back up another side. That, you know, it's not all horseback jump off the horse and they're standing around ready to be shot type thing. Yeah. Right. Right. Absolutely. It is pretty handy, though. You can get into some places in the whites where the sheep have never seen a human, right? And so it's, they have a curiosity about them. The whites is a different place. Yeah. And always has been. Anyway, moving on. So then all of our other seasons start in December, the first Saturday in December.

And kind of the oldest and the most timeless unit that's not open this year would be the Old Dad Mountain Range. And we had a disease that killed off that species. And then next to that, you have the Marble Mountains. So those are the two longest standing sheep hunts in the state. And the marbles has gone downhill quite a bit. And it's actually been kind of heartbreaking. The disease that hit the old dads touched the marbles as well. And it infected the same amount of sheep, but the sheep didn't die off. They all got sick. And they've kind of been struggling with lamb recruitment. And I think that was in 2013 that we had that die off. And we still haven't had lamb survival in the Marble Clippers. And then it's kind of putting a max on the age class of the rams because they have that disease in them. And when they get older, they're starting to die off. Yeah.

Well, and you're not replacing the rams the last three or four years with lamb recruitment. So what you've got on the ground right now that are in that, let's say, six to nine-year-old range of rams is kind of what you're going to shoot. It's something right there. And not a lot of, you know, maybe, you know, outliers or things like that that can really, unless you get a, you know, a really stud young ram that slipped through the cracks, survived. And he's going to start, you know, coming up through the ranks without a lot of other competition and things like that. But overall, still producing nice rams. It's always been known to produce some mid to upper 170s. But from what you and I have discussed, you're toning that down slightly. Not on outside, you know, still get a chance to put a Crockett caliber ram. But not looking over the numbers of rams that you used to.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And we pulled a, you know, I think it was 172 and an official 169 or something like that in the book. But, and I really feel like that was the top end, you know. We picked it apart and hunted it really hard. So, where it used to be, you know, there's so many sheep and it's so hard to walk past a book ram. You know what I mean? And to keep hunting and to keep looking when there are so many sheep. But you always kind of figured there was some mysterious ram in that unit somewhere. Yeah. And you're just not feeling that quite as strongly. No, not at all. But it's as hard as you're hitting it. Well, contrast. And what's interesting. Go ahead. Go on. Yeah. Go ahead. I was going to say that, so the marble, they open up the clippers, you know, after they opened up the marbles. Because they noticed that the rams were going back and forth.

The same thing kind of happens to the south, or I guess it'd be the west. And they go across to the south bristols. But what's always been really interesting to me, like when marbles were in their heyday, the marble clippers were in their heyday. They opened up the bristols. And we shot one of the first rams out of the bristols.

And we thought this ram was going to be some giant big ram. You know, he'd come around and flips out. And historically, we're at like 15 to 16 inch bases in the marbles on an older ram that looked like this. And when we shot him, we realized it was almost identical to like the old dad genetics, which are a lot smaller genetic. Where the ram was pretty, it was, they score a lot smaller for some reason in the south bristols. And that's kind of me touching on the south bristols really quick. It's a super mellow, mellow, mellow mountain range with low sheet densities and small rams. Mid-160s top end, but 150s and 160s caliber rams. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Contrast those two with, we'll talk about one that's on the upswing. Seems like the Clark Kingstons up there bordering Nevada, 262, has really been coming on strong the last few years. Yeah.

And the funny thing about the Clark Kingstons is it's kind of, you know, like our, gosh, it would have been. So three or four state records ago was from the Clark Kingstons. That range has always produced and there's always been sheep there. But if you were to go to the Clark Kingstons and look at it, you're like, wait a second. My unit goes all the way, you know, all the way to Pahrump, Nevada, you know, all the way up there and all the way down to the 10 or the 15 freeway. And I mean, it's gigantic and the mountains go up to like 7,500 feet and there's timber and there's, I mean, it's a crazy, crazy, crazy mountain range. And really all I think is happening is, and nobody really knows this for sure, but I think the ram, the sheep numbers are getting so high that the sheep are actually spilling out into the easier places to get to and closer to the roads.

Because those rams have always been there and it's always been a great unit, kind of a sleeper unit. But now, you know, people are going in and seeing rams without an outfitter, which is almost unheard of, right? Yeah. Not as many units in California as that, is that easy to do, but it seems like it has. And with, you know, 170 to mid to even upper 170 potential there. So great option, great option for that. And the Kingstons haven't had a ram killed in the Kingstons in like 20 years. And it's the same size as the Clarks. And so there's untouched sheep there, you know, if a guy's ambitious enough. So that's a cool, cool mystery unit. And then what am I missing here? There's, oh, we can go further south and down into San Gregonio and the Oricopias.

So for some reason, and it goes back into the 80s with San Gregonio and the Oricopias, we have a genetic in there that's unlike Nelson eye sheep. You know, they are Nelson eye sheep and they're tested as Nelson eye sheep. But they're... They're just the kings down there. They're the kings. Yeah. Yeah. And San Gregonio has a lot of vegetation. I mean, like it goes clear up to 11,000 feet. There's pine forests. There's everything. And the sheep are through it all. And they brush all year. And there's creeks and rivers and everything. And then on the complete opposite end of that spectrum, if somebody was to go to the Oricopias, it's the most barren place you'll ever see. You know, I take pictures of rams all the time. And people are like, what are they eating rocks? And I'm like, oh, no, there's just...

And I tell them about this grass that grows under the rocks that, you know, it's almost like they have to flip the rocks to eat, you know. But both of them have the same quality type rams with Oricopias edging them out slightly. Yeah. But... Well, and, you know, I know the San Gregonio has always had, you know, because it has the wilderness and that misnomer has the ability to have rams that, you know, skip a year or two from getting discovered. But the last several years, it seems like, from talking to you, some of those sheep have started to use different parts of that unit, not even the more remote places. Some of the more easier parts of that unit places. So, it's not one, even though it's labeled San Gregorio Wilderness, it's not a true backpack wilderness, you better eat your Wheaties or don't even apply here type unit. No, it's not.

But what's cool is you can take it to that level if you want it.

But there's no need to. I mean, there's really, really incredible rams that have moved out and you can hunt from a nice wall tent camp and glass every day and, you know, little walks up to where you can see the rams and everything. And if you're an archery hunter, San Gregorio is probably the top unit for archery hunting right now. Why would you say that? What makes it conducive to that? Are the rams more tolerant, if you can use that, of people or just the density of sheep or a little bit both? Yes. And then also include in there where the sheep are and where they have been is extremely cut up. And so, you know, you're 80 yards from one ridgeline to the next, to the next, you know what I mean? And so, you can kind of parallel them and then come over on them almost anywhere.

And then they are, there is, they push a lot of backpacking and hiking right out of Palm Springs there in the range. And so, they see a lot of people. Yeah. That's always helpful. Yeah. It's definitely the archery zone right now, I'd say. And definitely 175 to even 180 potential there. Let's quickly, before we dive into the oricopias a little bit more and about, you know, your awesome ram that you turned up there, let's talk real briefly about the Cady's. Oh, Cady's, yeah. And then we'll finish up on the oricopias. Cady's seem to be one of those doing well, high harvest rates, kind of a unit. The way I would describe it is people of all abilities and all that. You can put as much into that as you want. You could get luckier and shoot one on or near an ATV or a 4x4 type road. Or if you want to get out and get after it, there's that type of terrain too.

And definitely got Boone and Crockett type potential, 170 ramps potential. Yeah, absolutely. It's a very, very, very big unit. And it's one of the only units that's not in a wilderness area. And so, there's a lot of like four-wheeler trails, side-to-side trails. You know, you can drive your vehicle around it in a lot of places. But that being said, you're still out in the middle of the desert, right? And so, like the Cady Croppers, like the Cady Mountain proper area is so big and so vast. And there's no roads and no way to travel it. And there's rams right in the middle of it. You know, it's like pretty much a backpack style hunt. But also on the other end of it is a guy that can't get off his four-wheeler because he's older and, you know, took him 25 years to get the points he has, you know? Yeah. There is rams that you could shoot near roads.

Seldom are they the, you know, book rams because those have kind of been through a little bit. Yeah. But a nice ram still nonetheless, 160 plus. Great rams. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This year, I think they killed a 167 right next to the road. So, which was handy.

Yeah. No, the Cady's is fun. I really like the Cady's. It resembles Nevada a lot. And the horns are very Nevada-y. It's like a true Nelson sheep. They're just bright yellow horns. And to get a big ram there, they've got to be long, you know? And they've got to be pushing 37 to 14 inches. Not a giant base, so they've got to have some length to go with it all. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, no, it's a fun unit, though. I enjoy it. Well, let's talk about a special ram that you were involved with. I know you guys helped your client harvest it last year, but it didn't start. It wasn't just a ram that you found last year on a hunt. Very special ram. We're talking about the ram that Jason Harrison, the owner of QU, was able to harvest last year with the statewide tag. So, tell us a little bit about that specific ram.

When you first knew of it, found it, laid eyes on it, what you thought of it then, and how that whole saga unfolded over the next however long it took before he was able to acquire a tag and then punch that tag last fall. Yeah. And we've obsessed about that ram for a very, very, very long time. And we've kind of got a whole backstory on him going back to 2012. In 2012, Chris Harlow and his crew were in the Oricopias and hunting, and in the spot where Goliath lived was a low 170s ram that was super, super, super young and super big. Like, you know, I mean, not super, super young, but a young ram. Five or six or something, which is super young to be that big. Yeah, five or six. And he had a huge drop and tipped right out and just, and they told us about it. And they're like, man, this ram is like, we obviously aren't going to shoot him, but he is super impressive.

And so he was kind of under the radar where like nobody would shoot him. And so you weren't really hunting him or noticing him until it would have been 2015. That summer he came in and to the waters in the summer, he, he doesn't water hardly ever came into the water at summer and we saw him and then realized that he was going to be the new state record. In 2015, he would have been, you know, close to the same score as he was when we got him. And we kind of figured him out that summer. We got on him in October of that year and watched him for, we got him on, on him on October 20th and then lost him on November 2nd. And so that's what, 13 days we were on him and actually ended up being those 13 days in 2015 is what kind of led us to kill him this year. Because of the fact that you, you're like, he's disappearing.

He's not staying on this spot, this part of the mountain range, whatever we have to start. We have to solve that end of October riddle, if you will. Where does he move? Where's he going? Yeah. Is that what you mean? And then, and what we had done is we pretty much cleared. So after he disappeared, we cleared all the normal sane places, right? Like the normal places for sheep. We cleared all those over the course of like 20 days, probably, or maybe more. Is this where you're trying to kill him with a client or you're just trying to wait for the regular? I don't know if you had to draw a hunter that year for statewide tag. Were you trying to kill him at the time or were you? We had the statewide tag that year and the season started November 4th. So we lost him two days before the season. And then we spent about 20 some odd days looking for him.

And then the day before the general season opened, we ended up shooting another ramp. Gotcha. Because we didn't want to lose, you know. Your number two ramp. When you hadn't seen your number one for a month, you're like, well, we're going to kill our number two. He's 180 plus. But what we learned is that he didn't go to the normal places, right? Because we had a solid crew. You pounded it that year and you're like, he is not here. Yeah. Yeah. And so we were looking forward to the next year because we thought we could get him. And then we didn't get statewide tag or the draw tag. There's only one draw tag. So you just set it out and probably got pictures of him again during the heat of the summer. Occasionally a couple of spots. Yeah. Like he's alive. He's bigger than ever. Go out and watch him, right? And take pictures through my spotting scope.

And I chewed my nails right down to the freaking stubs, you know. I'll bet. Every day I'm like thinking, oh gosh, it's the day to day. Nothing I can do about this. I'm just looking at awesomeness. And that's all it's going to turn into is looking at awesomeness. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And so anyway, that season ended and I'm like, oh my gosh. And then Jason, we had told Jason in 2015 about him. And he told me, he's like, that ram is going to be my ram. I have no idea how I'm going to get the means to get the tag. And I have no idea how he's going to make it till we're able to. But that's my ram. Yeah. It was just crazy that it ended up working out. And he got the tag. And he normally came, the ram Goliath is what we call him. Goliath. He was, uh, he would come in like July 20th to water to start kind of running around. And this last year he didn't show up and didn't show up and didn't show up.

And we're going, oh my gosh. And then it was like August 7th or something. He walked in in the middle of the night, just like he always does. He walks in from the North in the middle of the night, smells the water and then walks off. Doesn't even take a sip. And he's a total badass. What a stud. Yeah. What a, yeah. I don't need that liquid. I'm just going to go eat rocks and cactus, you know? Yeah. Just eat cactus. And, and so we are all excited. But when he walked into water, he was sunk in this year and he was old. He had a gray face and it was like, and he had a couple more chips and he broomed off like an inch on both sides of his horns. So you're like, all right, this, we better do something this year because he could tip over at any moment. Yeah. Yeah. And then, uh, it was a hell of a summer. And then, um, I got in there kind of like, I mean, it was, I got in there October 2nd.

And you still can't hunt till first week in November, right? Yeah. I got in there by myself October 2nd and, uh, I didn't have help in there till like the 20th or 20th. No, it was the 25th. I think where I got backup and I was just in there by myself and clearing you groups. And, um, this year was the hottest October we've had. Uh, and so it was a hundred degrees every single day. Um, and I was backpacking and it was just the gnarliest month of my entire life. And, uh, I mean, really it was hardcore. And you're a tall, skinny guy to begin with. So when you're sweating your guts out for 20 something days, you don't got much left to Jake Franklin by the end of that. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, my hands are blackened from the sun, you know, at this one time, quick story, um, I had gone out and I was just hiking, hiking, hiking, hiking, hiking. And I was getting tired and tired and tired.

And all of a sudden I kind of had gotten myself in the bottom of this valley where I had to get up and out of it. And I was going to camp on that ridgeline the next day. And all I could think about was water. And, uh, I was just getting tired and drinking all my water. And I talked out that night and, uh, I had one water bottle left, you know, um, I was, I called my wife on the satellite phone and I'm like, Hey, you know, I'm, I pushed it a little far. I don't have water. Um, you know, and I don't think I have enough water to get back to my truck. I don't know what to do. And she's like, well, you're hydrated now. Right. I'm like, yeah. She's like, well, pee into your other water bottles, you know, and, and just in case you have to use it, you know, it's better now than when you're super dehydrated and gnarly yellow and stuff. And, uh, so I did.

And, uh, I didn't end up having to drink it, but that was like, that was the story of my October. It was brutal. That's the motivation to get to the truck is I got to make to the trucks. I got water there. Cause I don't want to drink what I'm carrying in my back. Exactly. Exactly. And, uh, I was thinking like, Oh, maybe I can put like my powdered sugar water drain, you know, it's not, it's not going to cover that. It's not, no, no. Anyway, super glad I didn't have to use it, but I was, I told that story, you know, I'll come back around to what I was doing and the reason I was doing that. So normally with our sheep here, um, and I would, I would argue like other sheep everywhere. Um, once they go into the rut and that, um, temperature that they're rutting at, they won't snap out of it, um, with sheep until that changes. Yeah.

Um, so like with the Rockies, like that November, December frigid freezing cold until that changes, um, they won't snap out of it. Same thing with our desert sheep. If it's so hot until it has that first cold snap, like serious cold snap of the year, they won't pull off the use. And, uh, just watching. So did you finally get that? Did you finally get that late October or November? You never got it. He just stayed. Never got it. It was screaming hot the entire time. And then I think it was like November 2nd or well, anyway, so it's screaming hot and I'm like, he's with you. It's like all the mature Rams are with you. He wouldn't leave. He wouldn't, he's with you. And so that actually ended up costing me why I was there for 33 days before we killed him. Cause you kept thinking he is here this year because that hasn't happened. He's gotta be, I'm just missing him.

I'm gonna go back through him again or whatever. I'm gonna go back through the use. I'm gonna go back through the use. And we had this Ram we call patent, you know, that has the same patterns as Goliath and as well as black Bart, another Ram. And, and we're like, they have these patterns and they're with you. It's like these Rams are with you. And so, uh, I just kept making everybody circle to use and circle to use. And, and, um, finally we drive around, uh, and as one King and I couldn't get a really good look at, and I knew that that was our first day of Jason's hunt. We're going to walk right down that Valley. It's the only place that he could be, um, with use and in the unit. And, and that's what I'm thinking in my head. Right. And so we walked down as 12 miles, fricking Jason's little kid cash was with us the entire way. Super gnarly.

I mean, elevation changes climbing and, oh, it was brutal. So we did 12 miles and got out late that night, got back and, and I'm sitting there at dinner going. He wasn't there. Yeah. He wasn't there. So now you're like this. So now I'm going, well, he probably either left the unit or he's by himself or he died. Really weird. Right. Something's weird. And so Jason's like, Hey, well show me this places that he could leave the unit. So we just drove around the whole entire unit. Right. And, uh, there was this area that we're driving through and there's quail on the road. And then we started noticing everything was kind of greened up and, uh, it's kind of just a secluded off little area. And, uh, I'm like, man, there was a monsoon that came through here, right? Something hit here a few weeks or months ago.

So I, I, I picked my binoculars up and the coolest thing, like I'm going to write a story about this picture that Paul bride, the photographer took. So I pull my binoculars up and right in the middle of my binoculars is a broken open barrel cactus. Um, and it's, it's not yellow. Mile or two out there? Probably two or three miles, two miles probably. Uh, but they glow, right? Oh yeah. It's just like a white dot with a red ring around it. It's like a sheep butt at two miles. It might as well be something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's just a red hint right around it. And, um. You knew the only thing to do that was sheep or eating that for dinner, busting it open. And you're like, yeah. And it wasn't yellow yet. So I knew it was in the last month. Right. And there's deer don't bust them open. You use hardly ever bust them open. But I'm like, okay, there's a ram here.

Like there's a ram that we haven't found and he's here. And so I had two guides that were out backpacking really deep in the main mountain. And, uh, I was like, when they get out, you know, I'm going to put the whole crew on it, but tomorrow. So it'd be the third day of Jason's hunt. Let's just surround this little tiny, uh, area and it's Canyon chopped up and we call it the Canyon lands. Um, but you know, let's surround it. And, uh, we'd, nobody saw a ram all day. It was the slowest day ever, you know? And, uh, nobody saw sheep and everybody's questioning me and except Jason. Jason was like, he's in here. We're going to stay here until we kill him. You know, it's like, that's always fun. That's always nice to have your hunter saying that. Cause it's usually, I mean, I've been with a lot of sheep hunters myself.

When you're not finding your target and you know, in your gut, based on experience and whatnot, what's different about the situation, why you should stay or why you should move. Yeah. It's hard to sometimes convey that to someone else. So that was, that was probably good to hear. Jason's the kind of guy too. He's, you know, he knows how hard you're working. So anyway, you stick it out next day comes. Next day comes. And then, you know, I just send my guys out through this Canyon chopped up country and, and put them on a couple little high spots and then we surrounded it and went in, uh, Jason and I just hiked right through it. And then at eight o'clock that morning, kind of everybody, um, saw the Ram at the same time. Um, you know, it, it was, everybody's freaking out. Like game on. And he had a few girlfriend, had a few use. Yeah. That's, that's what was cool. Right. He was with use.

And what had happened is the use had just kind of migrated to where the monsoon had come through. Um, and he was, he was rutting still. He was point curling his lip and chasing the girls. Like it's just, just, I mean, there was only four of them. Um, and it's just, wasn't, there's never been used there before, you know, it's Ram country. Wow. That's a neat story. Yeah. Broken. It was crazy. And if it wasn't for that broken, you know, barrel cactus, you, I mean, you might've looked there, but you might not, you might not. No. Yeah. I might've just kept driving and, and what it was. So I pulled up my, my glasses right on the hood of my truck and Jason was right next to me and the photographer was in the truck and I saw the broken open barrel and I'm like, Oh my gosh, there's a broken open barrel. I just dropped my binoculars and put my head, my head in my hands, you know, cause that was

my 32nd day there, you know? And this, I knew at that moment, that's, that's a probability that this is the missing Ram. Yeah. Wow. So you've got it. And he got the picture of my head, my head in my hands just going like, Oh my gosh. And then Jason's just glued to his binoculars. Yeah. But the picture, like it's, it captured so much. That's telling. Yeah. It did. Yeah. It was, it was cool. So you found the Ram and you're obviously able to get in on it that day and whack him and he's, he's a legend. Um, and there's no two ways around it. He's a legend. And anybody who's probably, you know, alive or has a pulse in the hunting world has seen, uh, pictures of this special Ram that Jason was able to take, uh, with Jake and his crew. Um, official measurements, I believe 191 and seven, eight gross and netted official 190 and four eights.

Um, I believe about five inches, uh, maybe a few eights more than that, but about five inches over the state record. Is that right? A little over five or five and an eight. Yeah. Which is, which is significant. I mean, a one 85 is an absolute monster. A one 90 and four eight Nelson, uh, desert bighorn. Um, I, I don't know. I'll go out on a limb and say, I don't know that that will ever be a record. It's a world record. Nelson and I, um, state record, California. I don't know how, I mean, I know in Utah, we don't got them. That's never going to happen. I guess you can't say that about Nevada or a few places in Arizona that have produced, you know, low to mid one eighties because that's, doesn't seem like that far away from one 90 and four eights, but it might as well be 15 inches. You know, it really is something like that.

So it's, and, and what's crazy is when you hold a sheep, that's one 85, like I, I hold a ram that's one 85 every single day in my house. Like I have, you know, I guided the old state record, you know, back in 2011 and I have his replica in my house and the difference between a one 85 and a one 90 when you hold them, it's, it doesn't even make sense. It's a little bit like in bears, like a, an eight and a half or nine foot brown bear to a legitimate 10 foot plus brown bear is not 12 inches in length. It's, it's girth, it's, it's hundreds of pounds. It's, it's, it's hard to, hard to fathom and sell. They're both laying there next to each other. But, um, what a, what a cool story. What an awesome story. And for an awesome guy, you know, Jason, um, being the owner of QU, he's been from day one. Uh, we've known Jason for a lot of years, um, ourselves back when he was with his former

company as well. And, you know, he's been always a supporter of Jason, uh, Carter and myself and the guys here at Epic Outdoors and everything that we've been a part of. And so we appreciate that their gears incredible, especially from mountain hunting type, um, gear, uh, packs, gear, all that. We support, uh, QU because they've been with us from the very, very start here at Epic Outdoors. And we appreciate Jason very deserving. Um, he obviously went all in to some extent. Um, this is a ram, um, I'm hunting and, uh, you know, when you, it's pretty volatile when you got one ram of this, um, magnitude and caliber alive. And like you say, maybe he's tipped over. Maybe the rut took it out of him. Maybe you got a cheap shot and broke a back hip from another ram. You never, you, all these things in 30 plus days are probably going through your mind as you're just tearing apart one unit.

It's not like you're tearing apart nine units in the state looking for a shooter ram. You're looking for one sheep and, uh, that's taxing. I've been there, done that. Nothing like, uh, on a caliber ram like this, but hats off to you. I know what, what that took, um, um, you know, in some extent without having witnessed it myself, but I, I know, no, how hard you guys worked at it and congrats. That's a special, special sheep. Anything else you want to add there on, uh, on Goliath? Well, uh, I just wanted to touch on, and, and I don't know if you saw like the Kuyu spring letter. Um, they had me, you know, kind of give a sum up of my hunt with Jason. It's Jason was your, what every guide wants as a, as a guy that hunts with you. Um, he was so determined and he represented everything that we want to represent as hunters.

And I think that that's so cool that he happens to be one of the leading brands in the hunting industry right now. Um, and that's the person who's running it and he's has his hands on it. You know, it was unreal hunting with him. Like I put a quote, I'll just read my quote really quick. I have the catalog right in front of me. Being on the mountain with Jason and his son, Cash, I was reminded of the importance of our time of field with the ones that we care about. Kuyu not only provides hunters and guides with the best gear that keeps us comfortable and performing at a high level, but they are the role models for our great industry while guiding Jason for his desert bighorn. It was inspiring to see how the hunt was as much about teaching his son our traditions as it was about him completing his grand slam.

And I couldn't be more supportive of Jason because of the person that he is and who he was when we hunted with him. It was unreal. Well, anybody that knows Jason, you talked to him at the booth. Although as the growth of Kuyu has happened, obviously he's not maybe as accessible. He doesn't come to the shows for all four days and stand around trying to take orders, him and Brennan and, you know, Sean and the crew. He's a busy, busy guy as most CEOs of businesses are. But you pick up on his, he's not willing to settle for almost, whether that be in business wise or, you know, performance gear and all that. He's very driven. And he's very motivated. Comes across very, very easily when you get to know him. So, great guy, great story. And just an incredible ram. I was able to hold that in my hands at Reen at the Sheep Show with Jason as he recounted part of the hunt that you did today.

And just a super, super ram. So, congrats to you and your crew on all that. And it might just also now take time to put a plug in for organizations. You know, I know California has a Wow Sheep Foundation chapter. But the Wow Sheep Foundation national chapter, as well as all the chapter and affiliates, great organizations. I know. If you're a sheep hunter, you probably get it. If you're not, I know you're probably like, why do these guys just ramble about sheep and so much? It's just hard to explain. I've invested 20 plus years into my life into sheep research back from graduate school to being a biologist and now as a guide and all that. And it's just, it is, they are consuming animals. And organizations like the Wow Sheep Foundation and putting money where their mouth is and to keep and put sheep on the mountain is what they're all about.

So, we encourage all of you listeners to be involved with organizations like the Wow Sheep Foundation or your local state chapters or both. And to put money back on the ground, sheep are intensive to manage. They take a lot. They don't take care of themselves normally. When they're left under themselves, they don't usually always fare as well when they have intensive management and disease research and water developments and surveys or lion removal or all of the above. And so, get involved. WowSheepFoundation.org is their website. And we're big supporters of Wow Sheep Foundation here at Epic Outdoors. So, feels like we could keep talking forever about sheep. But there are, like we talked about earlier, there are some other species in California. Yeah. And maybe, I guess, most notably, I'll maybe just summarize antelope real quickly

and then we'll dive into maybe the elk and the deer, Jake. But antelope, you know, are some big antelope found in California up in the northeast corner of the state. That's where they're located. Very, very tough to draw tags. Again, non-residents can only draw up to one of those. But if you draw something good, you know, like maybe a lassen or one of those tags up there, you've got a chance with the right conditions. And if you know what you're looking for and how to judge antelope to maybe kill an 80, 82-inch plus buck. Your thoughts briefly on antelope. Tough to get, obviously, but a quality hunt. I mean, when you compare the number of antelope tags in a lot of the western states, there's really hardly anything in California. But they do have them. It is an opportunity you can apply for. Gotcha. So let's talk about elk. We talked about it earlier.

As far as public land hunts, that northeastern hunt for Rocky Mountain elk, in this case, is the only one. It's very exceptional. High quality, definitely 350 to 375 bulls with even some better potential. But let's dive into maybe the tule elk, which I think, correct me if I'm wrong, it's probably what you've spent most of your time hunting, especially recently. Isn't that right, Jake? Yeah. Yeah, we've hunted a few tule elk every year now. I'll just touch on something really quick that a lot of people don't know. And I don't know if it's listed anywhere. But on California's website, the Siskiyou unit is listed as Roosevelt elk, where a lot of that unit is the wrong side of the five, and so you can't enter them in the book. Yeah. So that's something notable that the Siskiyou unit, if you're looking for Roosevelt elk, for North American 29 probably wouldn't be your best unit.

And we found that out, obviously, with the lines. But we had shot a 381 right on the other side of the five a few years ago. So it's kind of— They lump them in as Rocky Mountain on that side. Yep, yep, absolutely they do. So it's a big Rocky in the 381. If you're concerned about that and a purist and all that, then it's something you might have in the back of your mind. Yeah, so otherwise the Northwestern unit is probably the most notable Roosevelt, correct? Yeah, and that's where the world record Roosevelt was shot. Yep. Okay, very tough odds. Private land issues up there on some of those units there, other than the marbles, which is not to be confused with the other marbles we were talking about earlier. There's no Roosevelt elk down there in southeastern California down there. We're not talking about those. Hunting the marbles a few years ago, and that's a hard mountain range.

That's a hard unit. Or it can be. There's some private property you can go hunt. But if you wanted to go do a wilderness hunt, like hiring a guy to pack your stuff would be ideal, right? Yeah. Mountainous, thick. Yeah. Hopefully the rut kicks in or, you know, anything like that that can help you in that thick stuff. Yeah, absolutely. So, Northwestern, you're going to need some private land access to do well, or get lucky on a very small piece of private land that, you know, 20 to 150 acres that sometimes elk move into some meadows. You get permission. You might get fortunate that way. But public land hunting there is very limited there, wouldn't you say, Jake? Absolutely. Yep. Yep, for sure. And jumping into the Thule, there's kind of a wide range of units. You've got units in the Owens Valley, which are, well, not probably, some of the best hunts in the state, no question.

And the best public land options in the state. Let's break some of those Owens Valley units down real quick. Obviously, they have the multi-unit archery tag, which is probably, if you hunt with a bow especially, probably the best, one of the best public land Thule hunts. I mean, we'll talk about Grizzly Island. Obviously, that is what it is. It's, you know, it's high success hunt for big bulls, terrible drawing odds. But so we're kind of going to ignore that because it's very well known. It's where that, you know, they'll have an auction tag or so a year there. But down in the Owens Valley where you've got public and private open prairie slash upland type country, probably some of the best public land units in the state there, don't you say? Yeah, yeah. And somebody who is a keen glasser and understands really breaking country down with glass can really, really excel in the Owens Valley.

It's not so much where you're down or you can be if you prefer it. But, you know, you back out, you get your spotting scope out, you glass, you know, five miles in both directions and you find the elk groups and then you go in and stalk them. Now, if you're going to do that and you have that Owens Valley multi-zone archery tag, you're going to be stalking, you know, some elk that scratch at the world record, you know, which is 326. You know, you're going to be hunting 300 to 320 inch bulls with that tag. And the hard thing about the Owens Valley is those elk are either in the Tule's where it's really, you know, eight foot tall grass essentially, or they're out in the desert. And it's like two and a half foot of sagebrush. Open. You don't get a lot of cover. It's different. Most people, this species of elk, that's how they've adapted. That's how they live.

And it's, you know, we think most Westerners think of mountainous, north slope, cool, dark, you know, hell holes, you know, things like that. And this is, could be the more polar opposite of what we're talking about. Yeah. 110 degrees out, they're laying in the sun. Yeah. Like that's what elk were hunting, you know, and, and the more open, the more safe they feel, you know. Almost like antelope. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And, and they were in the whole California prairies, you know, all up through the central valley and everything. They're like a prairie animal. Right. And so it's, it's kind of funny, you know, you say, well, like that archery hunt isn't an old man's game.

And, and you're like, oh, well, it's all flat. Well, it's flat. Yeah. But when you're stalking, you have to crawl for like a mile sometimes. And that's brutal. And that's gnarly. You know what I mean? They're just bedded out in a, in a field. But you can get to them, but you have to crawl on your hands and knees. Yeah. Let's talk about some of the, you know, the, the multi-zone archery being in the rut August, you know, early to mid August. Um, let's talk about the individual subunits for both, whether some muzzleloader and, and rifle hunts there that you really like, um, for, for, for tuli hunts there for people to consider applying for. So your, your muzzleloader independence hunt, I think there's only one tag in there this year. Um, but it actually touches, I think it starts September 8th this year.

Uh, and so you'll actually catch the tail end of the rut and, and, and, you know, you'll have more bulls that haven't broken off yet. Um, and it's actually probably, I, I would really, really like that hunt. Uh, independence unit is kind of, you're kind of sandwiched between the Tinamaha unit, which is, there's always going to be elk there. There's always going to be a nice elk there. There's great glassing. And then when you go further South, you have the lone pine unit, which has the most elk highest concentration, you know, uh, and you're kind of sandwiched between the two. And then when you go further South, you have the most, you know, the bulls might be out of the unit. Um, and so the elk hunting is a little bit harder in that unit and, and you can actually have days where there might not, you know, the bulls might be out of the unit. You know what I mean? Yeah.

But, uh, they'll be there and you'll kill one. They'll circle back through and all that. Just they're nomadic roaming. And it doesn't take, take long to move very far when you're open in open prairie, you get bumped by a couple of hunters or something like that. Or I guess in this case, you're not talking about very many hunters, but you know, something bumps them a cat. Yeah. Cowboy driving through or something like that bumps them. Um, yeah. But the Valley is almost a hundred miles long, right? Yeah. From, from the South, you know, the furthest South point of the lone pine unit all the way up, you know, Bishop's not open this year. You could hunt it with the archery tag, I think, but, uh, you know, it's almost a hundred miles of Tule elk country right in there. And it's only six to eight miles wide the entire way. So it's just a strip of elk.

And, and when the, you can look at a map of the whole Valley and when it, when the, there's a river that runs right up the middle of it, when it kind of fans out and you have this big fan of grassland, that's pretty much where your elk are going to be all the way up. And each one of those big grass patches is essentially a different unit, you know, being the Tinnemaha or the West Tinnemaha or the Bishop or the, um, Goodale this year. Um, the Goodale is actually focusing on a herd that goes in and out of alfalfa fields. Yep. Um, but, uh, yeah, that the Owens Valley has a spot for me because you have 14,000 foot peaks on both sides of you. And, you know, the tallest peak in the United States or the continental United States right there, Mount Whitney. And on the other side, you have White Mountain peak, which is where we hunt sheep.

And, uh, you know, so you have 14,000 foot peaks on both sides. And then the valley bottom, you know, in the widest part, maybe 20 miles wide. No, it's not that wide, maybe 11 miles wide, you know? Um, and so you're kind of sandwiched in this incredibly beautiful valley and hunting Tule elk. So you have, you have the, the Eastern slopes of the Sierras and, and that elk herd. And then you go over, you know, over the Sierras. Over to the West. Central Valley. Yeah. Yeah. And, and then you get more of your classic iconic Tule elk zones. Um, like La Ponza, I feel like is the most classic Tule elk zone there is. The public land that's on La Ponza, um, there's hardly a tree on it. Uh, so like if you draw and you don't want to pay for trespass onto public land or private land, you have this American ranch that you can go hunt. And, uh, there's not a bush on the place.

It's just a prairie, just flat rolling grasslands. And the elk are just right out there in the middle of it. And, um, and talk about getting, you know, really, really difficult getting to them. Well, and if they get bumped there and go to where they got a little bit of cover, which is on the private land, then you're kind of handguffed to some extent. And one thing about that hunt that we've known as we've talked to some other hunters, as well as I think yourself is due to the fact that that that hunts later in October, you generally can get a lot more broken bulls by then. Um, and so finding an intact bull that you really like and all that is tougher than doing in those earlier August and September hunts. Yeah.

The ideal thing to do with the La Ponza tag is if you had the financial ability to be open to, you know, private property, you just kind of drive around and talk to people in glass and then find the bull that's still connected. Yeah. Figure out the land that you've gone and then see if you can really trespass. Starting off the door. There you go. Yeah. So. Yeah. What about, I know that, uh, that Cache Creek unit from a public land standpoint is a very good option for people as well that maybe aren't, aren't willing to, or aren't able or willing, whatever the right word is to, to pay trespass or don't want to do that. Or just want to do hunt on their own. Um, yeah, that's a good option to not as easy to get around, not as roaded, things like that. The classic rolling lower mountain type hunt. Explain that a little bit to us. Yeah. So there's a road.

Um, it would be the Eastern side and the Northern side of the unit. And it makes an L and that's the only access you have is off that one road. And you'll see there's, you know, a few hundred yards, a nice flat, truly elk country. And then it goes right into the mountains. Um, and so you could pretty much like you could get an elk in those areas. You got to be careful, you know, not to push them back into the wilderness, but a guy, um, similar to when we talked about like the Clark Kingstons for sheep, a guy could make that as difficult. As he wants, essentially, like you could hike 10 miles in, um, and be super remote and find a big bull and shoot it, you know? Um, but it's all, you know, mostly public land. And if there's a small amount of private, there's like an orchid or a vineyard there. And, um, there's a couple other things, but it's a, it's a, it's an interesting Tule elk unit.

Uh, most of it burned and those bulls will actually go out in the burn. Um, and so glassing, it's, it's closer to a mule deer hunt. Yeah. Great spot stock style hunt. Yeah. Later hunt as well. I think it's in October if I remember right. Yeah. But they don't break as bad in that mountain range. Don't, not as, not the density of bulls probably like some of those others have to just tear each other apart. Right. So. Exactly. Yep. Anything else, either other units or anything else notable, um, that you want to point out about, um, California elk before I do want to ask you about, um, getting tags. We're talking about the draw, obviously, and that's very, very difficult, but, but California also has PLO tags and also some auction tags available, which, um, for 99% of people that ever hunt Tule elk, um, you know, especially non-residents, you're probably going to have to go that route.

So talk just briefly about that. Um, and, and maybe not just about Tule, but they've got them for, for Rosie's as well. So. Yeah. Yeah. So our, I'll just touch on like the governor's tags or, or sorry, fundraising tags, um, in California, they sell to a year every year, and then it's on a three year cycle, um, on how they rotate those tags and the three tags that they issue for to be bought. At an auction, it would be the Grizzly Island tag, the Owens Valley tag, and the multi-zone tag. The multi-zone tag and multi-species tag actually allows you to hunt, um, three different species of elk in California. Yeah. Anywhere. Yeah. Um, yeah. Well, not anywhere. So it's limited to the Northeastern unit, the Northwestern unit and the LaPonza unit. Oh, I got you. Limited on the Tule. The other two, you get to hunt the best units for Roosevelt and, and obviously the only one

from Rocky mountain, but. Yeah. So you get the best row Roosevelt area and you get the best Rocky area and then kind of, um, a good, but not fantastic Tule spot. Now they were talking about changing that to where you could hunt the rut in LaPonza in August. And if they were to do that, it would be the best. Incredible. Yeah. Um, you know, last year they, and then how that rotation works is, um, every third year one of the units gets off and it just rotates. So this year we didn't have the multi-zone and we had the Grizzly Island and the Owens Valley. Next year we won't have Grizzly Island. We'll have the multi-zone and Owens. Gotcha. Now, when it comes to, let's say Roosevelt tags or, um, Tule tags through the private landowner system. Let's talk just real briefly about those, um, the rough price ranges that people are looking at. These aren't cheap hunts.

Um, they're not, you know, they're limited in number. And when you're talking Tule, you're limited to California. So, I mean, I know we've got outfitters that we help, help book hunts for their represent. We don't get huge demand. Um, mainly the people that are trying to knock off that check mark off the North America 29, but talk with us just in general terms about what somebody, um, what's better, uh, better be prepared to pay for the best, you know, the Tule PLO or the Roosevelt tags. Yeah. So your Tule elk, um, if you were just looking to get a species, you can find cow tags for 3,500 to $4,500. Um, that's nuts. Yeah. Yeah. For a cow. And then, uh, better be good eating. Yeah. She better, you know, have a bunch of fat. Right. But, uh, and then your, your, your, your management type bulls, which are like mature bulls, but raghorns, uh, you're going to spend 13 to $15,000 on those.

And then your trophy bulls are going to be 20 to $30,000. And your character drives those as high two hundreds to, you know, you know, 270 to 320 type bulls. I mean, right. I mean, that's kind of what you're talking about on trophy. That's where you're talking on. Yep. Yep. You know, right at Boone and Crockett to, you know, 320 is pretty much where you're at. And then as far as the Roosevelt for a nice bull elk, you know, it's hovering right around 19 to 20 grand. Yeah. Um, great trophy potential. Um, you know, it's probably not, not the place. And I mean, just being frank, there are cheaper Roosevelt hunts in say Oregon. If you just are trying to get the species, um, Roosevelt elk, then California, California is better for the top end trophy Roosevelt. And that's probably the best way to put that. So. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Like there's, you know, quite a bit of like Kerry Jellison's guy, quite a bit of like 330 type bulls, you know? Yeah. He's killed some giants. We, we did have him on a podcast last year and he's done very, very well. So, well, just, just want to point that out. I realize we're not talking to every single listener there about it, but, but that's, they're not cheap. Um, they're unique. Um, but there's a way to bypass the draw if you've, if you've got the means to do that. So. Absolutely. Absolutely. So that kind of knocks out probably the high points for, for elk. Let's, uh, wrap up with, with deer and we'll primarily just talk about the mule deer, you know, the black tail. Um, you mentioned that earlier, got some great black tail in, in California. The majority of those are going to be hunted for real trophy deer are going to be hunted

on private land and easy to acquire tags and things like that. With regards to mule deer, um, we're talking about draw area. So let's talk about the areas you, you'd like to guide in, um, the areas that are, in your opinion, the better trophy producing units right now in the state. Yeah. And, and, and the, and just the whole, what we're, the reality of what we're talking about when talking California deer, we're not talking, talking about good potential with the right conditions and migration and whatnot, but, but these aren't all slam dunk. These aren't more 90, 200 inch slam dunk deer hunts. They're, they're not. So let's call them what they are, but let's still break them out from as far as the best of what California has to offer. Yeah. Yeah. So our Northwestern part of the state, um, say from Reno, Nevada up to the Oregon line, uh,

has really, really, really been coming through lately. Um, the trophy quality has gone way up. Uh, there's probably a handful of deer that are 185 to 200, you know, killed in that area every year. Um, and I think it's just a move of the herds that live in Oregon and Nevada have kind of seeped over into California. Uh, I do think that that's an extremely limited amount of time that that's going to be happening. Um, and it'll sway back a little bit, I think, but, uh, other than those like generic desert type Northwestern units, um, all of our specialty deer zones are migrations. Yeah. Um, we have, you know, the Doyle muzzleloader, which they're migrating off the Dixie wildlife refuge. Uh, and then you have the whole Sierras on both sides. Like you have Anderson flat, uh, starting those good tags as an archery tag. And then it goes to youth tag. And then it goes to the rifle late season tag.

Uh, this last year, uh, no moisture came and those bucks never came down. And so people were shooting for meat. It was a tough year in California on those migration nuts, you know, to some extent like the Round Valley and the, uh, Andersons and, you know, the good L, which, you know, seen better days as well, but it was, it was tough in those units. It wasn't, they didn't produce, it was not the year to, to draw on that takes a crystal ball. And even when you do get great conditions, let's say you do get it. What, what should be a normal expectation for those hunts? Let's say you get a normal, even a better than normal, you know, snow load earlier, just prior to those hunts. Yeah, me personally. Um, and, and like say our outfitter, if I drew the tag, what we're going to be looking for is like a really special, like a, we're going to pass everything.

That's not 170, um, or 30 inches wide is kind of where we go and where we base it at. Now, if you drew the tag and that's a good year, you know, this year that would be top end, um, by far. Um, and that's in the units, you know, you have G3, you have G39, you have G37 over the other side, you have M3, uh, you have the Bass Hill archery. Um, those units are like kind of the migration tags with leaving out a couple smaller ones, but, um, that's kind of what I'd be shooting for. If I drew those tags, I, I wouldn't let 170 inch deer walk. Yeah. That's just kind of keeping it real. Um, you got some, some bucks too. It seems like California is kind of prone to some wild, crazy looking bucks on occasion. Some squirrely genetics coming out of some of these units that, um. There was that buck in Muley Crazy this month that was 220 inches that was shot here in California on a youth tag. Yeah.

So you get some of those, you know, maybe deer that, you know, that one scored, but other deer that are big and old and kind of squirrely looking and things that maybe don't rack up a score like a traditional 190 frame with a bunch of trash in a Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho type state. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We had a guy this year who just wanted 30 inches. Like that was his main goal. And so we shot this, you know, buck that scores nothing essentially, you know, but he's 30 inches wide. Yeah. You know, so the guy's just tickled pink, right? Yeah. Um, it's. What do you. California. Yeah. Go on. Yeah. What do you feel like? I mean, obviously the weather is going to play the biggest role into making these hunts better than, better than maybe just very average deer hunts. But, but what's your overall thoughts and the status and outlook for 2018? Not a lot changed.

It didn't look like in regulation wise. Um, but that's from my perspective. So. Yeah. Um, I'll, I'm going to touch on the regulation change here in a second, but, um, 2018, this would be our, this would be year three of a late winter. Uh, and so those big migration deer, uh, haven't been shot in a couple of years and they've been able to get that maturity on them. Uh, and so, you know, rolling your dice on a year like this year would be a good year to do it on those migration hunts. Cause if that weather does change, you're going to have a few years growth on those bigger bucks. Uh, if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. What was, uh, what you did want to make note of a change at some time you alluded to Jake? Yeah. So the state of California went into these three year cycles. So essentially the laws they make one year, they have to hold that for three years before it can change. Yep.

And so, you know, like what we were given on the Eastern slopes this last year of the Sierras, uh, they cut the tags back 50%, um, to kind of slow the buck harvests down. Well, now that's in effect for three years. So they killed 350. This is year number two. What's that? Yeah. This is, this will be the second year. This is year number two. Yeah. Yeah. They killed 350 less deer last year, uh, than they did in 2016. So 2017, 350 deer less killed on the Eastern slopes of the Sierras. So it's not a huge area and it'll be, you know, the same thing this year and then the same thing next year. And then they'll reevaluate. Yeah. Before they have the potential to bump them back up. So, which is not a, is not the, I don't know. It might be good for two, three years from now, but, um, you know, most every other states we're talking about adjust tag numbers on an annual basis.

And that's just a very unique thing about California keeps drawing odds, you know, stuck or stagnant, you know, not a lot of up and down, you know, you're kind of left with what you got. Yeah. Like, I think this is our last year being stuck with 19 tags in California. So next year will be the first year. You're talking sheep? Yeah. You're talking about sheep. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's the same for Tule elk, deer and sheep, right? And so sheep were at the end of our three year cycle. So look next year, potentially new units, you know, new regulation change, maybe three units in a unit where there was only two tags last year. Maybe bump up 20 plus and then non-residents could draw up to two of those. So that's, that's happened a few years. I think one of the previous three year cycles or the one before we were able to get a couple of them.

So, but like you said, now you're down in the high teens, but only just one. But, well, I appreciate the perspective on deer. I know you take some cool bucks. You tip, um, there are ways obviously to get tags as well. Maybe just briefly go over the open zone and golden opportunity tags as means to a drawing you can draw. Uh, and, and how, how do those two tags differ and also different price? Yeah. So there's two different tags you can buy at an auction type setting. Uh, one would be the open zone, which allows you to hunt any zone that's currently open within the state of California, um, with the means necessary or with the means that's required by the state. So if it's a youth hunt, you have to be a youth hunter. If it's a muzzleloader hunt, you have to use a muzzleloader archery, so on, so forth. During the season. Established in the rigs. Yeah. Yep.

And they have three of those, uh, tags that they sell in California every year. Um, it bypasses the drawing process essentially. Yeah. Uh, for the unit you want to hunt. And you can hunt all the different units. So you can go hunt, you know. Bounce around. Yeah, you can bounce around. It's, it's kind of like a governor tag other than you have same season dates as all the draw hunters basically in those units. Yeah. And then there's the golden opportunity tag and there's five of those. And you can hunt the entire state. I think it's from June through the last day of December. And, uh, there's, you can only hunt areas where there's hunting open at least once a year. Mm-hmm. Um, but you can hunt it all year. At least one season open it then. Yeah. Yeah. If it's an archery hunt. Okay. You're good to still use any weapon during that long season date.

Um, you can, yeah, you can hunt all year essentially. Uh, as long as the deer have horns. Yeah. Um, through December 31st. And, uh, hunt it with any weapon you want, wherever you want to do it. As long as there was a deer season somewhere. And, you know, most of those guys who buy that tag are waiting till the end of December when all those deer migrate out of the mountains. Yeah. And they're hunting for, you know, most of them are looking for a 200 inch deer. Yeah. What are the differences in prices on the golden opportunity versus the open zone tax? The open zone hovers around 15,000 and, uh, with some sway, both directions. And the golden opportunity is right around 35,000 with a little bit of wiggle room on both things of that as well. So again, which has gone up significantly, right? The open zone used to be like 8,000 and the golden opportunity was 15 to 20.

Um, and we started killing some big deer in California and now that's gone up significantly. Yeah. Well, again, not cheap. Um, are some opportunities there maybe when compared to what you'd pay in other states for landowner tags, Nevada, uh, maybe the best in Utah or Colorado may some, you know, they're obviously a lot more in some cases do get very liberal seasons. The upside may be very big being that you can hunt to the end of the year, but, um, anything else noteworthy regarding deer that you want to throw out there before we wrap this up? Uh, no, not really. Um, we do have an emerging herd, um, down in the very, very, very southeastern part of the state. Uh, we're growing a bigger Sonoran herd. Uh, there's some of those genetics and deer coming up from Sonora. They act like Sonoran deer. Um, and so keep an eye out, you know, um, in the next couple of years, there'll be some

really big deer shot down in the southeastern part of the state. Cool. So real dark horns, light bodies. Save a trip to Mexico. Yeah. Yeah. They live in the bottoms of the washes and eat cactus for a living, you know? So. Gotcha. Well, hey, Jake, I really appreciate your time today. We really do hear all of us at Epic Outdoors, um, been good friend to us here and kind enough to take some time with us, breaking down a state that for a lot of people maybe isn't as popular, but I'm sure there's a bunch of residents that have probably listened to this today and picked up something, if not just been entertained by the story of Goliath or whatever else. So we really appreciate your time, uh, that you've given us today. So. Yeah. Anyway, thanks a lot. And we'll do it again soon. Sometime. Thanks for having me guys. And, uh, yeah, thanks for everything. Okay. You bet.

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