EP 93: Elk Hunting Tips/Tactics Q&A with the Epic Crew

Maybe a pre-scout. I think road systems, water, and cows, where are the cows and stuff, but even that changes a little bit. In my mind, I'm thinking draws. More tags, split unit, new hunt. Anything to do with Western big game. Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter and the Epic crew. We got Jeff John, John Peterson, Chris Peterson here. And anyway, coming at you from Southern Utah, kind of exciting. We're right in the middle of our season, been doing some crazy stuff. Haven't posted a lot on social media, because there's specific bucks that don't really want to be seen by the whole world yet, or at least I don't want them to see. So, anyway, but we've been having a good time. Adam's in the field right now. He's working the sheep over pretty hard, and he's pretty relentless.

I'm sure we're going to have a bunch of sheep dying very soon. Not to mention, he did kill an awesome doll sheep there in Alaska, so we've had some good success already. The 170-inch ram, such a giant, very, very, quite an accomplishment. If you missed it, go back and listen to that podcast we talked about, and it was awesome. Yeah, it was. It was awesome, and that story's great. Of course, Jeff's been up to Alaska and had some good times, and I've tried to I'm going to stay in the lower 48 ever since I got my butt kicked on Brown Bears Review this spring. So, anyway, and nevertheless... I've tried to stay down here, too. Yeah, butt kicking continues. So, anyway, before we get started, we do want to thank Under Armour, and we appreciate their sponsorship, everything involved in pretty much everything we do, and we appreciate them.

They make phenomenal gear. A lot of you guys have seen a lot of their people supporting them and hashtagging them And using their gear, it's an incredible western pattern for deer and elk especially, as well as antelope. And guys are finding a lot of success with it and enjoying it. And the new gear is pretty amazing. Not that the old gear was terrible, but the new gear is awesome. Anyway, maybe Jeff, you can enlighten us a little bit. Yeah, they are coming out with some new lines. You're going to see them in retailers already, several of the new items they have online, if you want to jump on and just research some of the stuff before you get there. They're bringing stuff out, I think this next week, they're bringing out a few more items as well. That new Windstopper, the Windstopper jacket and pants, the Windstopper jacket's available online right now.

The pants will be on there soon. They're actually the ones that me and Chris went to the car wash with. So, you know, they call it a Windstopper jacket, but it is, you know, it's a pretty waterproof jacket too. Then the Pro Shell, which in Alaska was, I mean, so valuable. You know, when I went this- Pro Shell is basically rain gear. It's Gore-Tex. Yeah, it's rain gear. It's straight Gore-Tex, hardcore. They've added a lot of new zippers, a lot of new things, like, especially for guides or guys that are working with radios or something like that. They got a radio pocket in their wind stopper jacket. They got, you know, just several things that they've kind of integrated in. The Raider pant, I have had so many people hit me up about the Raider pant. Very comfortable.

It's very comfortable. It gives a little more stretch to it. Synthetic fabric that will dry quickly when it gets wet. Just a lot of great things coming out. New Raider boots, awesome. Several new items that are just great products. We're happy to see them innovating and growing and, you know, trying to really produce gear that is top notch. I mean, truly top notch. Well, they're doing great, and there's a lot of new gear on their website, underarmor.com, UA.com, ridgereaper.com. You can also, you know, once you get on there, you can search for Baron or whatever, and then generally that hunting lineup will come up. So, they also have some great boots as well. So, anyway, check it out, and I don't think you'll be disappointed. All right, we're going to do something special this week. We're going to give away around $1,000 worth of Under Armour gear. Basically

We're going to outfit you for your next hunt. And with the details on how to win that, we're going to turn it over to Jeff. All right, so what we want you to do is, as you're listening to this podcast, we want you to take a screenshot as you're listening. We want you to tag epic underscore hunts, as well as UAHunt, and we want you to post it on your Instagram or Facebook feeds. We'll be able to get those, and from those screenshots that we see come across, we're going to pick a winner. We're going to get you outfitted. Jacket, pants, shirt, boots. We're going to set you up, as well as a little bit of Epic Outdoor Swag too. So, yep, be sure to tag us. That again is Epic underscore hunts is who you're tagging, as well as UAHunt. Just U-A-H-U-N-T. So, super easy. You're listening to the podcast right now, so all you gotta do is take a screenshot of what you're listening to,

repost that on Instagram or Facebook, wherever on social media, and do the tags, and you're entered to win. And we're gonna hook them up. We're gonna do a random drawing on that, and it'll be awesome. If you win, you're gonna be hooked up with all, a whole setup of the new Under Armour gear. So, anyway. Alright, let's get it done by September 21st. Okay, so you got one week to enter, one week to post. Anyway, we look forward to giving away that winner and announcing the winner next week. With that, I guess we just should we just get started in on this podcast? Yeah, we're doing a Q&A. Yeah, let's do a Q&A podcast. I guess Chris is the one that organizes everything and tells us what we're gonna do. He's a little bit bossy that way. And so, with that, I guess, John, you want to kick us off? Yeah, serve us up. First question?

We've got Alex that says, great podcast. Love hearing the stories and experiences on here. My question has to do with field judging bulls and especially want to know what's the number one characteristic you look for in a big bull. Is it a long beam, long fifths, big fronts, or mass? Yeah, that's a great question, and I think we all like that great big back end. Everybody likes this giant big old whale tail, and the whale tail means the end of the beam and the fifth. Yes. You know what I mean? We're talking not necessarily It's actually a long beam, but the way the beam is shaped. And so, to me, that's more of a look than actual score-wise. If you want big score, your fronts, we're talking the first three, that's six points. If the six points are 20s, and the goal is 20s, I mean, for, you know, the guides that are like Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah,

they're heavy into some of these big goals. And they're looking for 370 plus, 360 plus type animals. Yeah, or 380 plus, or 400 inch. I mean, you want 20s. 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, okay? So, if you can get 20s up to your four and have a good fifth, a 12-inch fifth, 15-inch fifth, something like that, and you have a decent beam, good width and mass, you've got a 400-inch bull. You know, 20s is the key. You've got to have fronts. And so, and yeah, you can kind of lay those out and kind of picture the end of their nose and how they curl. A lot of times, you'll have what looks like a long front. They don't curl at all. They're just straight. They're not as long as you think. And so, I think measuring sheds is a big key on, you know, being able to judge those fronts. Measuring dead bulls is obviously nice, too.

And get your hands on these bulls and really understand what, you know, it's one thing to have a great look. He's got a big back end. Well, yeah, but his eighths, you know, his thirds are eight inches long. Or his fronts are 14 inches long or, you know, something like that. That hurts a bull. When you go 14, 14, 14 versus 20, 20, 20, that's a big deal. If you have short fifths, that's one time that's short. That's one time that's short. And a look, an overall look on a back end. And my personal thing, and I'll let you guys jump in, but if they look like they have average to small swords or fours, you know, the fourth time, I mean, it makes everything else look longer than maybe it is. And so, because you're kind of comparing the sword, but if you have a giant sword, a 24-incher, say you have a 24-incher, and the fronts look long, you got a giant bull.

You truly do, as long as, you know, he's not 30 inches wide on the inside or something like that. And so, you know, and he's got a fifth. I mean, you've got to have everything there, but I mean, I look for a sword, then you can kind of base everything off of that. If he's got like a 16-inch sword, but he looks beautiful and awesome, he's got the right shape, he's gonna be a dang nice bull, probably. But it'd be hard to get him much over .350. I mean, it's just, it's just, all that jumps into being able to judge. Yeah, I think another thing that's, for me, one of the hardest things that can be deceiving is the beam length. If you got a super short beam on a compact bowl, he might look giant, because you got all these long points stacked on a short beam. But if he doesn't have that beam length, then you're going to lose a lot on score.

So, like you said, the fronts, I think, is number one. Number two might be beam wings. Yeah, your beams are, it's amazing. So, you could have a, you know, a short beam, let's call it a, the goal is 60-inch beam. I mean, that's a long beam. 58s are great. 57, 58-inch beams, great. 55s, good, like a good beam. You're getting into the 52s, 53, 54, which is a lot what we have here at Southwest Desert. You know, those are short beams. Those are short beams, and you lose a lot. You times by two, I mean, you're talking 12 inches if it's six inches off, you know what I mean, or eight inches off. You're talking 16 inches. And so, right there, you've lost. It's significant. But having said that, we have mass out here, and we have long thirds. And so, you could have like a 60 inches mass is heavy.

That's 30 inches aside. You know, 28, 27, 27's getting to be light. And so, 26, 27 inches aside is light. And so, you can kind of base your mass off of that. If he's heavy, give him 60, you know, on paper. And then... Jason, tell me a little bit about that bull you killed a couple years ago out here. It was a bull that you hadn't guessed within two inches of what he really scored, I think. Southwest desert muzzleloader bull. Just two, three years ago. But people looked at that bull and said, that's a 400-inch bull. Yeah, he was short-beamed. But out here, they have that genetic, and a lot of times you can, you know, and he was, he's 385. But there again, we're talking about that whale tail look, remember? And one of the most photogenic bulls you could ever get. Yeah, and his whale tails are amazing. He's beautiful. Yeah, they are. You look at that bull, and you think 400.

Yeah, but there's a lot more to a bull than his fifth. And yeah, he had rock and fifths. They were awesome. But, you know, there's ones, twos, threes, fours. He had average fours. There's an inside spread, there's a beam length, and there's a mass factor. And so, this bull didn't quite have the mass. He didn't quite have the beam. I mean, so, yeah, he had the look. He's awesome. 385, amazing. I love him. And we can go into that story later on. But anyway, there's a lot that comes into play on score. But I think the key, personally, I like to look at the sword right off the bat. Obviously, we like a well-tailed. It's a beautiful look, but there's so much more to it. And those beams are hard to judge. If you can get, generally, on a big bull, you need to get 29 inches. 29 inches from his base to his four. And then, if you double that, you got a 58 inch beam.

So, you need 29 inches from his four to his end. And when you measure them, a lot of bulls will go 27, 25, 26, 27, 29 to his four, and then they'll peter off. And so, you can kind of say, well, that's not double the length. That's not, you know what I mean? And so, then you can kind of get a feel that's a 54 inch beam, 55, 52s, and you can really tell, You know, and so, kind of keep that in mind. And then, obviously, the spacing between this second and third is critical. Third and fourth is critical. If everything's jammed together, and he just looks like a compact beam, he's gonna be a compact beam. He's not gonna grow on you. And then, when you have compact beams, everything else looks a little longer, and they might be long, but it's hard to make up that difference.

So, anyway, just a few things to think about. Get your hands on them. But I mean, if you have good thirds, you have good fronts and thirds and fours, it's hard to have a bad bull, unless they're just abnormally narrow, or you misjudge the beams. And sometimes you get some great looking bulls with 49 inch beams. That's 22 inches off from a long beam. And so, anyway, to have the perfect bull would be 20s all the way up with a 58-inch beam and a good normal inside spread, which is 40. If they're just an average good solid, they're an 8, 9-year-old bull, an average inside spread is going to be 40 inches, 45s wide, 35s narrow. And so, you can kind of base these numbers, write it on paper, kill them, measure it, and then you'll get better at it.

That's key. There's no replacement in my mind for getting those bulls on the ground and measuring them in person. Just seeing a lot of bulls. It's like anything. If you do anything enough, you're going to get good at it. Judging bulls is no different. You can see them and try to guess what they are, but then if you get them on the ground, you can actually measure it and verify. If you do that enough, you're going to get pretty good at it. That's, for me, the key. That's right. There's some bulls, obviously, when you're talking a half inch per pointless, talk a half inch with six time measurements, one through beams, and a half inch a piece. I mean, it's really easy, it's really easy, easy, easy to be off, even an inch. You're 15 inches off pretty easy. Yeah, and so pretty soon it's like, but, and then you have your gut feel.

This, my gut says he's this, you add him up on paper, the paper says this, and then you throw a little bit of ground shrinkage in there, They're five inches or so, and call it a day, and smack him, you know. And at the end of the day, it's not. Not everything's about score, but those are kind of, everybody has their own look, and what they like a bull to look like. And anyway, so we've killed some long-sworded bulls, and that's pretty impressive. When you got a 24, 25, even a 26-inch sword, I mean, that's world-class. And they're awesome. I mean, there's nothing like them. And yeah, we're known to hunt deer and a lot of other things. We like to hunt a lot of elk too, and we've sure put a few of them on the ground. So, anyway, is there anything we missed? On that question? We talked about lip and legs. I think we crushed it. I think we hit it pretty good.

All right, next question comes from Lee, and he says, I drew a rifle rut hunt in Utah this year. Looks like my hunt opens on a full moon. Is the full moon going to make it harder to find big bulls, or how can I use that to my advantage? Yeah, you know, that's an interesting question. So, generally, this is just my opinion and just my perspective, and you guys are welcome to chime in as well, but that full moon is very bad for deer hunting, unless you're hunting in the rut. But, you know, it's just very frustrating to hunt on a full moon when you're glassing up deer and bedding them and hunting them and killing them that way, because most of their activity is at night. Having said that, during a full moon, we'll jump into deer for just a sec, during the full moon, it makes it to where they're up and down throughout the day more. Yeah. Like they're... Might get up a little earlier.

Yeah, they get up a little earlier because they're bedded at daylight. And they're hungry. Yeah, and they get up for two hours, two hours. It's kind of weird. They get into a real weird pattern. If it's brutal hot, it might be different too. Yeah. And if it's really hot, and it's dark, there's no moon, they're going to feed for two or three hours in the morning, two or three hours in the evening. They have a real set pattern. They lay around a lot in the middle of the day. They feed all night, or throughout the night, off and on pretty heavy. Then they have more of an off and on pattern in the middle of the day, off and on, off and on, off and on. And so, anyway, it could be a challenge. And so, people like to hunt when there's no moon, because the deer are more active morning and evening, and for longer periods of time. For elk, from my experience, you know, Garth and I, my dad,

We were hunting New Mexico, and we had a full moon, and we had a couple of clients. It was clear back in the late 90s, and it was a full moon, and everybody was disgusted about the full moon and stuff. We actually found it kicked them into the rut really heavy, because there was lots of activity at night. And the timing was right. It was the last half of September. They wanted to be rutting anyway. And they're just getting crazy. They're cranked. It's cool weather at night. It's full moon. They can see. And it was just crazy. It's crazy. And then, we hunted them hard in the morning, and they would bugle for the first hour and a half or so, and we'd just get on them and be on them, heavy, really right up front. And then, they'd lay around all day long. These elk could do nothing all day long, because they were busy all night, not necessarily feeding.

I mean, cows are feeding. The bulls are just trashed and carrying on and rutting and stuff. And so, we actually had a dang good hunt. It pushed them into the rut. They rutted hard with the full moon. Sometimes people find, with heavy hunting pressure, that the full moon, they struggle with the full moon a little bit, because these bulls are rutting like crazy, and they feel comfortable at night, and they feel safe, because they're not hunted at night. And then, come morning, they shut up quick, you know, they're not as vocal. Yeah, they're not as vocal. And so, you could experience that, too. But a lot of times, in a lot of years, what's the major complaint we hear, hunting bulls in September? Remember that the rut's off, that there's no rut, that it's non-existent, or whatever. And so, at times, either they're going to rut at a full moon, and it will fill off, but

they're rutting while you're sleeping, you know, or it kicks them in to the rut where you feel like there was no rut one year. It might actually help you. So, it's hard to know how it's going to affect it, but it's not the end-all, be-all. Sometimes, like, when you're hunting mule deer early season with a full moon, that could be very frustrating. It's a hunt-rooner at times, especially in the desert, because it's just hot early season. And so, anyway, drew a rifle rut hunt, you know, I'd enjoy it. I'd hunt it as hard as you can, and I wouldn't let it get you down mentally. You know, and so, anyway, is it harder to find the big bulls, and how can I use that to my advantage? And you're just going to have to be very aggressive, very aggressive early and late. Like, just, you know, those bulls have rutted throughout the night and stuff, and so you

just want to be in the right place at the right time as best you can early. I think it's going to be less of a factor during the rut. Like, luckily, he's got the rifle tag in the rut. Last year, I had a November, so late season hunt during the full moon, and it was a big It's a big deal. I mean, those, you just didn't see them. They were active at night, and they were bedded. They had no reason to be up during the day, and they weren't rutting, so. They're tired. They were done rutting. They're tired. Yeah, post-rut, so they're tired. They wore out, and so, you just don't see them in the day, and it made it really tough. So, luckily for him, he's got a rut tag, and it's probably not as big of a deal. We've seen those early season muzzle hunts in New Mexico be really good during a full moon,

because these elk kind of want to still be rutting. They still kind of don't want the rut to go away. And all of a sudden, you get more bugling activity, because it's a full moon, and they're active, and they maybe remain a little bit active, you know what I mean? Versus if the full moon had been prior to that first muzzle season, they would have wore themselves out. They've been extremely active leading up to that muzzle season and then tired during the muzzle season. So, it's anybody's guess. We've seen everything. We've seen everything in all different variations. And so, every year, it's just a little bit different. A lot of it depends on hunting pressure, and there's a ton of variables that go into what the rut's going to be like and how aggressive it's going to be. So, anything else to add that you guys can think of? No, I think that's covered it.

So, next question is a great one about scouting and what not. It's Jeremy from Florida, and he says, About when do you think most bulls in the southwestern U.S. will be fully developed? Man, we've seen this. This has been crazy. So, we hunted some great big bulls in the past years, and Joshua comes to mind, you know, a 424-incher. He was pretty much fully developed by July 1st. And a lot of these big bulls, July 1st is a key date. These bulls are done at times. July 10th to the 15th, I mean, they are done. You're just, they just finish out earlier than deer. Where deer, deer will gain 50 inches between July 15 and August 10th, you know. Easy, if not more. And so, it just feels, you know, that southwestern U.S., I mean, you know, they finish early.

So, you get those rains in July, makes no difference, really. June, very little difference. Your bulls are significantly developed by mid-June, end of June, first part of July. And that's part of the issue I think guys are seeing down in New Mexico and some of these places this year is, you know, they're greener than green right now. Like, it's, they've had some serious moisture. There's grass everywhere, knee-high grass everywhere, but it didn't hit early enough. You know, it hit, what, late July, August, and by then, they're done. You know, at least the bulk of them are done. And so, you're seeing bulls that maybe have good fronts, but it just petered off on the back end. You know, just not necessarily...they just didn't have that moisture all the way through.

You know, I've talked to guys who are seeing bulls that they've seen in years past, and they're 25 to maybe 30 inches off, you know what I mean? It's just a whole different... Okay. Well, I agree with you 100%. So, anyway, that brings us to... Question from Shane. He says, I'm from Louisiana. Love to hunt elk in Wyoming. I hunt in some high country that's pretty rocky. I'm looking for a boot that does better for me in the steep country in the rocks hiking with a pack. What boot would you recommend for me? You know, I think that Kinetrek Mountain Extreme, the non-insulated, my feet are hot, so I get the non-insulated ones, but pretty hard to beat in steep, rocky country. With a pack, and you've got a pack. For a heavy mountain boot that you need, you need that stiffer boot, you know. It's a great option to go with a Kinetrek.

They're just made more of, they're more of a mountaineering boot, which is kind of what you're gaming for right there. So, yeah, anyway, you might try out the Kinetrek Mountain Extreme Boots. They're built for it. Of course, guys are using them on sheep hunts as well, but it's basically the same type of stuff. Very heavy. There is a lot of extreme country in Wyoming, as well as Idaho, and a few other places that, you know, just requires that heavy, heavy boot. A lot of these earlier season hunts, guys are still in tennis shoes, especially southwestern U.S. in the desert environment, Stuff that's not extremely rocky, they're using a real lightweight hiker. I'm not going to call it tennis shoes, but a lightweight hiker. Anyway, but for that, the Kennetrek Mountain Extremes, I think, would be a great choice.

So, you might go to www.kennetrek.com, K-E-N-E-T-R-E-K.com, or call Jim Wengem, 1-800-232-6064. Super good friend of ours, tell him we sent you. The thing about those guys is you can call, they'll answer your questions. Another resource would be go check out our YouTube site. Just go to youtube.com, search Epic Outdoors, go to our channel, and Chris has got a whole video on where he went up there to their showroom. It's got some tips on how to lace up your boots. Pretty awesome. Tell Jim you talked to Jason that I told him he'd throw on a free pair of socks or something.

See what he says. I'll bet he doesn't. I'll bet he doesn't. But anyway, all right. So, all right, next one's from Chris. It says, I know you guys have hunted a huge amount of area across the West. What are your top three favorite states for hunting elk and why? Man, what do you guys think? Since we're from Utah, you got to have Utah on there, don't you think? Yeah, Utah's tough to get a tag. It's tough to get it done. Yeah, well, the season, if you get a rifle tag in Utah, it's hard to beat. Like, just... Yeah. It's another reason, the downfall of our big bulls. Good and bad. If you have the tag, it's great. If they're rutting, we hunt them, okay? We start pre-rut with a bow. We're not going to give archers a jump on the guns. Then we go with the rifle, give them perfect rut, right? And then now these bulls seem to be actually rutting a little bit later,

That muzzle's been a killer season, been an amazing season. So, we finished them off with a muzzleloader. And if that's not enough, when they're tired, and they're feeding, and they don't like to get up, we'll long range them in the late season. You know what I mean? It is true. Utah is hard on bulls. And we've added a mid-season and a late season. We do everything we can do to kill them. So, anyway. So, anyway, yes. So, yeah, Utah's hard to beat, but at the same time, very tough to get a tag. I think one of my favorite states treated me the best is New Mexico. You can get affordable landowner tags. The drawing odds are tough, but not brutal. There's no point system. You can add and subtract that to your application portfolio pretty regularly and easily without feeling guilt. You know, you always feel guilt when you pull a, you know, I don't really want to spend the money, and

so you start not gaining points for states that you have points in. That's a lot of guilt. I have no guilt adding some subtracting states that don't have points, like New Mexico, Idaho, If it doesn't work for your schedule, don't apply. If it does, apply. Apply with an outfitter if you'd go with normally. The price of an outfitter would be less than a landowner tag in most states, and yet you're buying drawing odds. You're buying down your drawing odds. Kind of like a little bit of a high-priced tag in Wyoming, where generally speaking, the theory is to buy better drawing odds by paying the higher fee. So, anyway, I like New Mexico's key. Nevada's unbelievable. It's off the charts right now. In fact, we sold land on our time for like $4,500, where a guy can kill 330 bulls. And so, that was yesterday, kind of a deal for the membership where we emailed it out.

And part of an Epic benefit of being a member of Epic here. But great opportunities in Nevada. I love Nevada. They allow archery hunters to flirt with the rut. Generally speaking, they do have some rut hunts here and there, but generally speaking, they allow them to rut stress-free and then start clobbering them there at the end of October and hit them hard in November. And so, you know, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona absolutely must apply for a state. We've hunted up multiple times, and they have some seasons you can draw on with nine points. You're not going to hunt giants, but it'll be late season for dang nice You can get an archery tag in 13 to 15 years guaranteed, or maybe even get lucky and draw on the random. And then I would say like Wyoming, it's hard to say these are my top three favorite states, but Wyoming is an amazing elk state.

As far as opportunity goes, I mean, it's really hard to beat. You've got great potential, but opportunity, like where else are you going to be able to get a tag that often and go hunt good bulls? They want good bulls. It is. It's awesome. They got the general tag that still offers great bulls, but a lot of those giant general bulls are coming out of wilderness areas, but still it's worth the price of admission of hiring somebody. And then you can hunt, you know, if you draw a rifle tag in a lot of these units, you can hunt with a bow in September and then finish up with a rifle if you needed to. Wyoming's just a great state. It's a great state. It's gaining a lot of traction for guys that are wanting the 330 plus bulls. We really have a lot of demand and interest. We do a great job in our publication of breaking down the different units.

And there's lots of options. That's what I love about Wyoming. There's lots and lots and lots of options. And for guys, especially right now with a little bit of a boom in the economy, you know, you can maximize some of those points. You know, there are areas on these private ranches that you can draw with four to five points, maybe, and you can get in there and chase 330 plus bulls. Yes. You can draw it often, you know. So, yes, you're buying your way into there, but you have to draw the tag in Wyoming. So, plan on it, book it, go hunt private land, and it's basically the equivalent of maybe jumping another four points. It might take you eight or nine points to have that equivalent hunt in another unit. Go on that private, spend a little bit of money, but you're hunting in half as much time, possibly, too. That's great. There's a lot of theories, and there's no one right theory.

Everybody has their own situation that works for them. Some guys are not going to go guide it no matter what, and they truly want to save a buck, you know, a lot more than a buck, but they want to save some cash and do it on their own, and they get more satisfaction, and there's hunts there for you. There is. So, anyway, let's say that I'm a whitetail hunter from Georgia or something like that, and never gone elk hunting, but I want to start, I need some practice, just where would you direct me? Let's say, I just want experience. Archery or rifle. And so, let's do archery. Where do you want to send me that, you know, I'm not worried about size, but I want practice. Well, we actually have that question down here a little ways, but there's probably a lot of options for a guy like that in archery.

Colorado offers a lot of over-the-counter archery hunting in most of the state, right? Most of the western part of the state. The majority of Colorado is, I don't know, I want to say 75%, but a lot of Colorado is available over-the-counter for archery. And same with Idaho, right? Yeah, same with Idaho. Yeah, rifle as well. And same with Idaho as well. So, archery guy, if you want experience, you can get experience and still be gaining points across these western states. And then there's even easier to draw units in places like New Mexico and even Arizona does have, you know, multiple units that are easier to draw, that aren't known for the giant giants that everybody thinks about when you talk about Arizona. So, there's plenty of opportunities, plenty of options. The one thing that's a little bit tougher, people always say, and I guess we'll just kind of go off on a tangent,

people always say, you know, the hardest thing to kill is a giant muley. Giant muleys are the hardest thing to kill, and da-da-da-da-da. Go kill a 400-inch next year, okay? Go kill a 400-inch bull. Anywhere. I know a guy that's been hunting White Mountain. He's been hunting a lot of the different Indian reservations, as well as the landowner tags in Nevada, He's got several 390s, has yet to kill a 400-inch bull, and he spent the money year after year after year. So, it's very difficult. And then, part of the equation of killing big anything, in my opinion, is hunting them multiple times year after year. So, if you're not successful this year, that tag's available next year, and you can get the job done on a bull you named, or whatever, two or three bulls you named. And, okay, now let's say you're going to go to Wyoming or somewhere, Utah or whatever,

you get your tag, go get that tag again next year. How are you going to do it? You know, it's a lot, seems a little bit more difficult. The barrier of entry is a little tougher, so to speak, if we're going to talk in business terms, of being able to hunt the same bulls year after year after year without really shelling out the major cash, you know. And so, it's just tough. Whereas you can hunt big bucks We have big bucks on our general here in Southern Utah, and you can do it year after year if you do it right. Do a dedicated hunter program, whatever. You're hunting Pine Valley, Zion, Southwest Desert, beaver, whatever. And you can name these bucks if you spend the time, and then you're watching them grow, and then you're smoking them. And so, there's just a... I don't want to say there's more deer opportunity, but I'm going to say there's more deer opportunity, you know,

versus some of these elk. I mean, like I say, go knock yourself down one. This last year, I killed a .380s bull in New Mexico. Chris, you were there. And yet, I can't buy my way into there again. There's no Unwide Landowner tag, and I didn't draw a tag again, right? So, let's just say, like, if I want to hunt one of the bulls that I saw last year, well, I can't. You know what I mean? You can't. And so, it's a little bit tougher. It's just different. It's a different dynamic. And some of these guys are spending the cash and hunting places they can buy landowner tags. And these landowner tags are running 15 to 20 grand. And so, you know, they'll buy them multiple years, and then they kind of get a feel, and they're naming these bulls and working it that way. And so, anyway, just a little bit of a tangent. Well, with that, let's talk about our licensed application service.

And I want to talk to Ames about it a little bit and see what she's working on. Let's bring her in. Alright, everybody. So, we got Amy Duncan in here with us. A lot of you guys know her from Epic Outdoors License Application Service. She's a significant person within our office, and Adam and I work with her heavy, where she does a lot of our data entry and managing and filing of our applications. Adam and I choose the units, obviously, and we do a lot of the applying, or some of the applying. I don't want to say a lot of it, because that's all relative, but it's a lot in our eyes. So, anyway, we appreciate Amy and all she's doing. I just kind of wanted to talk about the Epic License App Service and kind of get a feel for, A, what you're working on this time of year. Everybody's out in the field, but what should they be thinking about?

And, of course, it's going to be time for renewing, getting their friends in, and all of that. And so, we just kind of want to wrap our heads around, like, what are you doing today? Like, what are you doing? So, right now, this is when I update everybody's points and make sure we've got that accurate in our files so that we know how many we've got for next year so that we can pick a unit that, oh, he's got a chance of drawing, let's put him in this unit because he's got the right amount of points for it. I think going into next year, you know, if you didn't draw that tag or that unit that you wanted, maybe you need to talk to Jason and Adam and say, hey, what did I do wrong? How can I fix it so that I have a better chance of getting it this year?

So, you have a lot of guys that hit you direct. They might be intimidated to talk to us or whatever, and they think their questions are dumb, which they're not. And so, they'll talk to you. What are guys looking for out there? I mean, there's a lot of guys that are wanting to draw fairly regular, and they're asking you a lot of these questions as well. They want the big deer, the big elk. They want that dream tag that everybody seems to be chasing. I think making sure that they're actually talking to you or Adam before they do their application. Some of them are looking at, like, oh, last year was fine, let's just do the same thing. Maybe you actually need to look at what you're doing and tweak it, instead of just do the same thing over and over again.

Maybe. Yeah. Like, if you just go after the very top species, year in and year out, you know, it's different than maybe giving us a specific parameter. I want a 330 bull, 340 bull. Yeah, exactly. Like, if you just say trophy, well, 330's trophy, but Adam and I might look at it and say, he said trophy. We're looking at 360 plus or 350 plus. There's a difference in drawing odds. There's a difference. Huge difference. Or maybe there's certain states out there that you can apply for that, like, we save, we reserve Arizona, Utah, Nevada, For the very premium, you know, quality, and then all the while we're gaining points there, we're trying to draw on New Mexico, Idaho, Wyoming. Be more aggressive. Go ahead. Go hunt. Go kill some 330 bulls. You realize what a 330 bull is? Freaking big six. Yeah, don't just waste your time billing points for that big dream tag.

Yeah, unless you've got other plans. Unless you're booking hunts on a regular basis, or you've got other plans. But there's a lot of guys that do want a very customized, Like, if you think about it, if you think about what, you know, well, I had to sit out this year. Why'd you have to sit out? Well, because I was holding for that dream tag. Well, you're going to be sitting out for 10 years. Let's not sit out for 10 years. Let's go hunt. You know what I mean? Yeah, get out there. And let's save for that dream tag. So, also, what we've got going on right now is we're applying guys for points for Arizona Bison. We're also applying Texas Desert Sheep, and then the Point Only. We got Point Points Only that you've applied a lot of guys for. For Wyoming and Montana. Yeah, Montana, that's a new one. Montana closes the last day in September, so the 30th.

So, we're cranking through on those. Of course, you're cranking through, I want to say. Yes. But I'll take credit for that. Let's call it we're, right? We're a team here, right? You get all the credit. All the while I'm in the hills, I've been applying, people. And so, anyway, yeah, Ames is awesome. She's great. She's been just amazing to work with, And very attentive to detail and to our guys' needs. And that's the one thing nice about our licensed app service. Our guys are not numbers, like they're people. They are people. I so love talking to all of our clients when they call in. I get to hear the best hunting stories, and we joke and laugh, and I just love them. You do develop relationships. It's been interesting is you apply guys over and over and over, 10, 15 times, right? And so, you get two application periods or three in Arizona. Like, you get to know people,

you know them on paper, and then you visit with them, and pretty soon you know their kids, and you know a lot about them. I do, yeah. It's great. It's not just a clientele, it's people. And kind of managing the funnest part of their life. Yeah, I get to help them go have fun, and I love that. Isn't that cool? And when they draw tags, how cool is it to be calling back I'm so excited. I love that. That's my favorite. I'm like, are you serious? That's usually the first thing. Are you serious? Yep. I do enjoy hearing that. We know when somebody draws a tag, because, you know, Amy lets us know. Like, it's great. Like, it is exciting when guys draw tags, and so it's like, we get fired up, you know? So, we look everybody up. Not only do we apply everybody, but we look every single guy up and help them figure it out from A to Z. Some of them want outfitters, some of them want self-guided.

List of members who've drawn it, maybe we've drawn it. And so, anyway, it's, and then, of course, that's all going to come back to us in stories and photos. And then, a happy client is a long-term client. And so, it's just awesome. But right now, it's the off-season, but it's not the off-season for Amy. She's continuing to apply, manage your portfolio. And for everybody that's out there, you will be getting a renewal, and it'll update your points, and it'll give you the notes that we have on file for you. And we expect that there'll be some few changes. We all have changes from year to year, and maybe your work schedule changes, or even your financial situation changes, good or bad. And so, we make those adjustments. Or maybe you've booked a hunt, like, two years in advance, and you know what that hunt's going to be during a specific time frame. We keep notes on that stuff.

We know when you're going on your hunt. We try not to apply during that time. And we want you to draw tags. So, you tell us to apply it, we're going to apply it. Like, we're gonna be aggressive trying to get you whatever you're really looking for. So, a guy like that, like, there are some guys that we always laugh because they're doing everything under the sun. A particular outfitter that's a good friend of ours comes to mind, but the dude draws tags. Yeah, he draws. Yes, he does. He's going mountain goat hunting this year. In fact, he talked to me about it yesterday. He talked to me about it yesterday. He's getting fired up. It's fun, man. Colorado mountain goat. It's like, man...

But he does draw. He does draw. He's a lucky bugger. He's pretty lucky. But he does everything. Is there anybody? I mean, we don't have many people that does as many things as him. He does stuff that Adam and I are like, really? Well, yeah, he said it. This guy kills baboons, so he wants it. Go ahead. All right, well, we just wanted to visit with you for a minute, Ames. Thank you for everything that you've been doing and what you continue to do. Of course, there's a lot of our clients that are listening, and kind of, for some that haven't called in, you let you, you know, know that Ames is a valid person. Yeah. With feelings. I have feelings. She's a legit human being, and she is working on your files, and so. Okay, and one thing to just make a note of, in the process of becoming a licensed app member, give us a call. We'll send you an application form.

You will fill that out, top to bottom, give you a breakdown on states, and then don't be afraid to call in and walk through that application with Jason or Adam. Yeah, or you, Jeff, even. You're working with a lot of our guys as well, and so I'm going to throw that out there. But, having said that, we are $100 a state. That includes up to two species. A $50 a state includes two species, $100 for three or more, and $500 max. And so, we're the most affordable, the best value. We're very intimately familiar with We work with the state systems, and we become that way with your applications, personally. So, anyway, for $500, you can do basically everything here in the West and know that it's done right, and we specifically choose the units that match what you want to do. And you guys are gaining the information on the units by the research that you're doing for the states anyway.

It goes so hand-in-hand. You guys are making phone calls, calling biologists, talking to hunters, We're talking to the outfitters in the areas, all those different things. Well, that reflects on our license application side. Yeah. Because we can see where the trends of drawing and stuff are. Well, you know, this one's kind of maybe a little under-applied for. Well, and that goes hand-in-hand with our consultants. You're calling us, and you're talking to the guys that have done the research. It's not like there's assigned consultants, and there's assigned people that research, and all they do is research, or all they do is consult. We're going to do it all because we're researching it all, and so we're fit to consult. We're fit to choose your units. All right, well, let's get back to the regular podcast. Appreciate you, Ames.

Kind of to tie into that license application service, you know, a lot of guys wonder, like, why would I have somebody do my applications? It's kind of personal. It is personal, but so is going to see a doctor. So is going and having your taxes done. They kind of know your social security number, right? They know your EI number, and they're telling you what you can and can't buy. Like, that's personal. Quit telling me what I can and can't do.

Well, you know, you're going to have some major tax burden otherwise. And so, same thing with the license applications. I don't want to change my own oil anymore. But I don't want it just Jiffy Lube doing it either. Nothing against Jiffy Lube. But I'm just saying, I want to know what's done right, the cap's on, I got the right oil, I got the right filter, whatever, and I didn't just... You know what I mean? And so, and it's personal, because it's my truck, it's going to leave me high and dry or not. And it's the same thing with taxes. You don't want just anybody doing your taxes. Nothing against the freaking corner street tax guys, but at the same time, I like to be personal. Guys like, for you, you need to buy a truck this year, you need to buy a camp trailer, or you need to, you know, not spend your money. Somebody that you put trust in to tell you what to do, where to spend your money.

That's what we're doing in License App. Our license application, we're telling people where to spend money. We're telling people where to invest 10 years of non-refundable hunting license fees. And things like that. And then, we're telling people to go with this outfitter. This eight grand is worth it. This seven grand is worth it. Not only that, you got two weeks of your time. And plus gear. And so, it is very personal to people. And we get that. And we understand that. And we don't take it lightly. I think that comparison to a financial planner is pretty fitting. We'll look at your hunting portfolio as a whole and say, oh, you really want a 330 plus elk, and you're only applying in one or two states. Well, we've got a great opportunity over here. You should really consider applying in this other state or things like that.

Yep. All right. I'm done talking about that crap. I'm going to need another monster. I I wasn't going to talk about Monster, and I should give Pepsi a plug because I'm now drinking a Pepsi because I feel guilty having two Monsters. Okay? That's the equivalent. Continue with the caffeine. You have to drink, what, four bottles of water now? I don't know. What was the equivalent? Some kind of ratio we had? Anyway. Sean Hanneman hit me, and he's like, dude, I'm just telling you, you need to drink four bottles of water. I'm like, well, how big? Because if they're big bottles, I'm going to have a problem. We're going to be doing this podcast from the restroom.

It's a great headache or whatever that means. All I know is you gotta pee a lot of it. Anyway, so now I'm on to a Pepsi. I love Pepsi. Speaking of tangents, okay, 150 calories versus zero, but anyway. All right, next question from Mitch. I drew an elk tag September 24th through October 5th this year in Utah. I've been scouting, but am I wasting time? What things can I look for in the summer and early fall when there's an archery season and an early rifle before my hunts? I would personally be freaking scouting as close to your hunt as you can, September 20th to the 23rd, September 15th to the 23rd. Whatever, how much time you got, you scout close to it, because you can't scout the rut unless you're in the rut. That's the same thing with mule deer. You can't scout the rut unless you're in the rut.

You can go hunt mule deer, you know, go scout the winter range right now for like a third season Colorado tag, but yet third season Colorado, it's a whole different ballgame. Right now, you're not going to see any deer. And people are complaining in Colorado about not seeing deer. And, well, what's it going to be like? I don't even know. A good buddy of mine, I don't know if I'm going to hunt my third season with my kid in this unit, because my brother has a muzzle to hunt, and we haven't seen anything. Okay, relax. The deer come out of the woodwork, and literally there's a lot of woodwork over there. And so, you know, it's all going to be okay, and he's going to have lots of deer to hunt. And so, anyway, I think that's kind of the same thing we're talking about here, is, yeah, you can pre-scout.

You're going to see maybe a pre-scout, I think, road systems, water, and cows. Where are the cows and stuff? But even that changes a little bit. So, you can look at things, but don't get all bothered by it. You know, we used to hunt Southwest Desert, prime example. And you could pre-scout that sucker, and it sucks. You know, you're just like, this is terrible. And all of a sudden, when the rut hits, there are bulls everywhere. John, you remember your hunt? Bulls everywhere, right? And you're like, where do they come from? Like, where do they come from? How can they hide? They're freaking yellow school buses, you know? And I scouted heavy before that hunt, but... Did you? No good. Yeah, it didn't. Makes you feel warm and fuzzy. You call it family time, and you know, kind of appease the wife, and tell her you're doing everything for the kids.

And then, really, you never found a bull. You wasted gas. Yeah, we did, you do learn country, and you learn access, especially if it's not close to home. So, I mean, there is something to be said for that, but as far as specific animals or bulls or things like that, no. And they're gonna move. They walk. There's been bulls. We documented bulls, you know, on top of one mountain that rutted on top of another in another state. You know what I mean? And so... 10, 15 miles is not out of the question for a bull to travel to rut, you know? 20 miles, yeah, it's nothing. So, anyway, yeah, you can do it. And what things to look for, I was always taught by a good friend that it's a significant elk hunter. Bulls, when bulls rut, and when elk rut, they make, they trash trees, they trash the ground. Like, you can tell when it, where places are good or not.

So, there's constantly times, even when I'm deer hunting, I'm seeing elk rubs, and you can tell an elk rub from a deer rub. I mean, it's like... Yeah, some blew up instead of... Anyway, it's unbelievable. So, elk like to make a mess wherever they go. They like to be known. They trash everything. And so, anyway, you can tell. You can tell, and those are the things I'd look for, is heavy rub trees, lots of rubs. They pound springs, they pound the ground. You know, it's not hard to tell. When you have a real low dense, low elk densities, you know, it can be a little bit tougher, but at the same time, you know, you can tell, it's pretty easy to tell between wild mustangs and elk. You can tell where they're making tracks. You just got to pay attention. So, anything else? What else? Well, I think this next question, we've covered a little bit, but Waylon's asking, he feels like

Big Bulls and Utah have declined over the past 10 years. What factors do you think have caused that to happen, and what can we do to improve quality? We've killed them. We've killed them. We briefly mentioned that earlier. And that's the thing. My dad always said it, is these days will end back in early 2000s, mid-2000s, when it was just unbelievable. When were we peaked? We peaked, what, maybe 2006, 2007? Yeah, ish, and it was retarded. Having said that, it's like, oh, it's like employees.

You're not going to give them a wage and back off and get away with it. You know what I mean? Like, let's say you've let Utah hunt bulls in the rut with a rifle. Are you really going to change that without a huge shiz storm? You know what I mean? And that's what's going to happen. We've hunted The muzzle, rifle, in my opinion, New Mexico does it right. They can issue tons of tags in October and have a minimal take, but yet give people an opportunity. If you hunt hard, you might kill a giant. We've killed several 380 bulls. I've been the benefactor of that. At the same time, they get the revenue from tag sales. They can sell more tags. They have five-day seasons. They're not allowing freaking 10, 11 plus days, depending on the seasons.

In the rut. They don't let you do that. With a rifle. With a rifle. So, they're getting the tag revenue, but yet still allowing archery hunter, who has minimal take, a couple of seasons in September, to hunt them when they're vulnerable, and then come back in with powder and muzzleloader and rifle hunt in October, November, when the bulls are tougher. Chris, you talked about it. How tough was it versus what it would have been like if you'd have had that muzzle tag in September?

Yeah, it was a game changer. I mean, I was talking to guys the whole time who had hunted just a couple weeks prior to me, and they were in the rut, and it was a completely different hunt. Those bulls just shut up. They disappeared. It was hot weather, and so without the rut, they're gone. Yeah. So, that's what's happened to Utah. We've killed them. Also, Game and Fish, they don't manage for score. They're not managing for score. They're managing for age class. They lump them into ages what they feel, not what we want. Like, I feel bad at Southwest Those should be managed tighter. We give way too many tags. I feel bad about it. It pisses me off, really. I don't just feel bad, I get angry. Well, and you grew up. You grew up hunting that. Yeah, and I love it, and we've been in it. And yet, the BLM won't manage the horses, and everybody blames Game and Fish. It's really BLM Managed Horses.

And the BLM can't, won't, hogtied, whatever you call it, won't manage their horses, but we're managing elk. And the cattlemen, of course, need to be, horses need to be managed, but they won't do that, so we might as well manage elk. And so, we keep cutting down the numbers and our heart on the elk and age group and whatnot. So, it's a very sensitive topic in a lot of places, but knowing what that could be, what was, just is not going to be. And then, too, any time we sell conservation tags, and guides like the conservation tags, Because you can sell a hunt to somebody, to a potential client. When you add money to the equation, significant money, we're talking tags that are 15, 20, 25, 40 grand, 50 grand for a tag, depending on the unit. And then you add teams of good hunters, teams of outfitters, where the hunter's going to make good on that tag.

They're going to kill the best bull in the unit. They're killing them, and multiple of them, right? And it's one thing to sell one or two tags, and another thing to sell multiple tags in all the seasons. And so, I just think there's just a lot of variables and a lot of factors that could come into play. But basically, we're the biggest predator an elk has, and you have to manage predators. And we need to be managed. And it's hard to do it when you've got seasons in place. Now we could kick back tags and go very minimal tags early season, and then kick in with more tags late season and gradually move in that direction. But again, people have been saving 18, 19, 20 points to go hunt these places, and they're going to scream pretty loud. They're going to scream pretty loud. My father and my brother got to hunt because he saved points, and now you're taking that opportunity from me, you

know? And I mean, it's just, it's one thing. It's like I say, you give somebody something, it's hard to take it back. Same thing with whether we're trying to move away from general season deer in Wyoming for the residents. You're not going to take it away from them They're going to kick and scream. And so, it's managing politics. A lot of the game in fish, manage politics versus managing wildlife. Managing wildlife, you don't hunt them in the rut. You don't hunt animals in the rut. You don't hunt them. Even Colorado, hunting third and fourth seasons on Mulder, you'd have bigger bucks if you don't hunt them in the rut. You don't hunt animals in the rut. When you do, you're going to have less potential than what you would otherwise have. What do you think? That said, I love hunting them in the rut. That's it. Give me a third and fourth season tag. Give me a rifle elk tag.

If it was like Nevada, we'd buy three or four. Kill them all. Right? Right. Because if I don't, the next guy's getting them. Isn't that the mentality out there? That is, but although, yeah, you've let more than a couple bucks pass that I thought you were crazy for. Yeah. Hopefully they lived. That one in Southern Idaho last year. Yeah. It was a nice book. And hey, you let one live in Colorado. How about that? I did let one live in Colorado. That's different. That's not a purpose. John? Dead rest. You didn't have to admit that, John. That was open to interpretation until you said that. He went ahead and defined it for us. He went there. I opened the door. Alright, let's move on. Let's go to a question from Lewis. How many of these are we going to do today? Yeah, we'll do a couple more. I recently watched your YouTube episode from Jeff, John, and his son, Kacen, hunting in Idaho.

I have two boys and would like to get them on elk hunts that aren't extremely physical, where they could shoot a decent bull. Where would you start? Well, Idaho's a good one. What was your mentality? Let's talk about your mentality about applying there. There was new opportunities. Okay, yes. And scary, like not tried and trued, but willing to take a chance. Yes, we knew there was issues because we knew there was depredation issues with these elk here. So, we knew there was a problem with bulls here, and they were all of a sudden jumping up the amount of tags. They separated unit 45, unit 52, pulled those apart, made it its own individual hunt. So, okay, so in my mind, I'm thinking, draw odds. More tags, split unit, new hunt. Okay, this is an opportunity.

So, that was kind of the direction I was going. I knew there was good bulls. You know, we'd heard about good bulls even being killed by the fish and game in that unit, like, because they're in the middle of cornfields wiping corn out, you know what I mean? So, we knew it was an issue. So, we knew there was opportunity there. I knew the area just somewhat, you know, familiar with the area. So, I'm like, well, hey, this is a great opportunity. Yeah, you know, just knowing what the potential could have been there. So, you know, that was the direction that we went, you know, and we actually applied. I split us all up, so we each applied for a different hunt. You know, there's three different hunt times. We all applied for different hunt seasons. So, broke it up so we didn't put four people in for once. We meeting your family. Me and my two boys, yeah. And you did that within the same unit?

Within the same unit, different seasons, just... Not competing against each other. Not competing against each other. So, just threw a name in the hat, you know, all the way across. As luck would have it, I mean, Cason drew, you know, if I had to choose again, he drew the hunt that I would probably choose. Your oldest boy? Yep, my oldest boy. How old was he at the time? Fourteen? Thirteen. Thirteen. Thirteen. Yep, thirteen. So, anyway, he drew, I think the odds last year were like one in ten, one in twelve, somewhere in there. I'm imagining they're going to jump this year just from what, I imagine they jumped this year a little bit, just because there was some great bulls killed, you know. But, you know, that's kind of what I'm looking for, for the kids. I'm looking for an area that maybe not...

I'm not worried about killing them a .380 bull at this point. You know, I'm just not. You know, I don't have to have that giant potential when I'm applying for my kids. I want opportunities. So, in applying, I'm going to apply for, like in New Mexico, I might go a 51, 52, something like that. Opportunity hunts, you know. If a guy is looking for a true opportunity to get their kids on, my kids aren't archery hunters, so I have to take that one off the map. I just haven't pushed him toward that because archery takes time. We know archery takes time. I mean, it's brutal. And starting with a September 1st start date on most of these elk seasons, it's hard to pull your kid out of school. I can't even get my kids to go two days in a row. It's hard. Usually, it's evenings. Dad, I can give you this evening, this evening, and this evening. And you're like, duh.

So, that pushes me to rifle, right? Rifle or muzzleloader. And some of these states have kind of a different pool for the youth, for youth hunters. So, you're increasing odds that way in some of these states. Season dates. Even Adam did a late season elk hunt in Arizona, applied very aggressively, knowing that it was an easy draw. And his oldest daughter got an elk tag. And so, it'll be late season, it'll be interesting, it'll be fun, right? Yeah. And that's the same thing with what you're doing, what I'm doing with my kids. And even in Wyoming, Colton's got an elk tag, and come to find out he's not going to be able to hunt very much. Very frustrating to Dad, but having said that, we're going to still make the most of it. But with six points, I knew he'd get it. And so, we're just, we're gaining them points where it makes sense,

but then being very aggressive where it makes sense as well, and trying to get them on hunts. So, lots of opportunities and not that physical. A lot of people talk about wilderness and backcountry camping And all these kinds of, you know, crazy opportunities, and those are great. It's great for kids to backpack and learn how to do all that. But having said that, the lion's share of the hunting out there is not done from a backpack tent. So, lots of opportunities. Next question's from Craig. What's the biggest bull you've ever hunted? Can you share the story and some history on that hunt? Yeah, so, well, this is kind of a couple two-part deals. So, the biggest bull I ever guided, very affectionate toward both of these bulls, happened back in 2000. I found a pair of sheds, 2001, off Joshua. We killed him in 03. We also killed Goofy in 03.

Videoed Goofy in 2001 as well, and he was, we figured, 330, 340. When we killed Goofy, he was 434, it was a 5'8". And so, anyway, he had 28 inch thirds and 27 or 6 inch fours and kind of crazy, really crazy bull. And Joshua found his sheds, didn't know there was any elk in the area, and found his sheds right off the bat. Well, meaning right off the bat, meaning while I was looking for deer, a pair of elk sheds. And that was his demise, knowing we could hunt him late and where he would be late, because that's where they shed. So, he ended up picking up his sheds, and as a 6x7, he was 424, his sheds. So, anyway, and then ended up picking up another set of his sheds that were over 400, and then it was a drought year, 2002. I figured he was 380s-ish, but he looked smaller than that because he was so heavy. He was so heavy, but he looked a little smaller than that.

That drought really kicked his butt in 2003. He came back bigger than ever, and ended up being, you know, 420s again, if he would have had his...he had 10 inches broke off his third. So, anyway, went like 412 or 414. So, Russ Young killed both those bulls, and it was quite a story watching these bulls. I mean, Goofy, we killed, we knew where he rutted, and so we ended up with a landowner tag in Utah. And hunted Goofy, waited for him to come in, and it was a long, long saga there, trying not to let people know where I was at and what our plan was. And hunted him for the year prior. He had a giant fifth on one side, on this five-point side.

So, I'd add a giant fifth, both sides, and it's identical same bull. Like, these thirds are jammed against the fours. I mean, there's no question, 100%, it's the same bull. It's crazy how they change a little bit. And I figured he was 440s in the drought year. So, wherever he summered, it was like a wet spot, whatever, spring. It was a lot of thick trees where I think he summered. And a lot of grass, even in a drought year, because the spring and the wet ground and whatnot, maybe, versus other bulls that were short. They were short fifths. Were there ever sheds found off him? No, never sheds found and looked pretty hard. And so, and other guys, I mean, you'd know about it. It was back in the day when, like, before Utah's boom, I mean, one of the best bulls ever killed in the state of Utah at the time. And so, very significant in people's minds, in my mind especially.

So, anyway, named them, hunted them. For Goofy, we hunted the rut in September with a rifle. Went in, instead of coming in on the normal road, we walked two miles from another road to a GPS coordinate in the middle of the night. And got there to where he would go to the trees. They would feed in the barn and rush to the trees to bed. And you've got to be in front of them. If anybody's ever hunted behind elk, you guys have. You can't catch them. You can't catch them. And so, anyway, we were in place, and in comes some traffic, two or three vehicles or whatever, people hunting. Normal hunting pressure, I mean, landowner tags allow you to hunt public land during the regular season. So, we were hunting during the regular season. And you get pressure, and the pressure of the trucks, the headlights, they just naturally start gravitating toward the trees, and we're in front of them.

Daylight breaks, and Goofy's chasing cows, and we shoot him. It was pretty amazing. It's a life-changing experience for me, hunting one bull, watching him in 2001, 2002, And then, killing him in 2003. And anyway, and then later that year, Russ had a tag, and we watched Joshua leave his summer range, videoed him in the velvet, have his sheds, video him in the velvet, watch him leave and track him down, tracked him for miles. From his summer range, it rained, and it was in the desert, and there was these other bulls. We videoed the other bulls, then no Joshua. And then there's his lone bull track, and I tracked his lone bull track for miles. And he walked in a straight line, walked by the ponds out in the Joshua's, Joshua Cactuses. I mean, this is why we named him Joshua. Walked by the ponds, didn't even get a drink, like just kept on going,

because it was rainy and it was cool weather at the end of August, like August 25th. Jumped him, bedded out in the Joshua's, and he took off to the opposite side of the valley. I jumped up on a set of rocks and watched him in a little dust trail, because obviously in the desert it warms up quick and the ground dries out. I see this little dust trail four miles away making tracks, and gone. He's leaving, gone. Going to parts that I've never seen him in. And I don't know where the nearest cows are. The nearest cows might be 40 miles. I don't know. There was no cows in the unit that I knew of. Never had seen one, didn't have trail cameras Obviously, we didn't run truck cameras back then. I mean, there was no where my options were gone. And so, we had to wait for him to come back to where he sheds. And Russ had the governor's tag and was able to hunt until December 31st.

We waited after Christmas, and we pounded it in November, pounded it, and I pounded it so hard. November, that was the same year I killed that 234 buck. But, you know, I wasn't even going to hunt my tag, and Russ was like, you need to take a break and hunt your tag. And this is October. October, November, December, Christmas comes and goes. We're now down to the last four or five days. Hit like December 26th. December 27th, I think we saw Joshua show up to the winter range with 10 inches broke off his third. And then we tracked him. We blew him from a mile away. He's just very skittish. He's a little British, and there was a light dusting of snow, and we tracked him. And a lion had come in and tracked him as well, so we're tracking him and the lion, and the lion veered off. And then we just ended up tracking him down, and Russ shot him in his bed.

And so, anyway, that was, by then, it was a couple of days of tracking him and playing cat and mouse. And it was December 29th or whatever. So, that was back when I was a kid, and taught me a lot about every animal, every one of these animals. But, you know, Chris, I'll let you tell the story. Maybe that 386 bull, that 6x in New Mexico, that you were on there with me. That was a significant five-day hunt, very significant story, and awesome that Chris was there. Chris filmed it. We were filming for Hunt and Full, our company there. It's on one of their shows, DVDs, I think, isn't it? So, anyway, I'll let you tell that one. It was one of my favorite hunts I'd ever been on. I think it's because we worked so hard. It was a unit that had just barely opened. It had been closed for, I don't know, 20 years or so.

And so, Jason drew a tag, knew that the unit was just opening, and we go out there, and we knew nothing about the area. And so, we were starting from square one, and did the scouting as we normally would, looking at maps, and talking to people who live there, and trying to figure this place out. And it was a challenge. What we ended up doing was we put out some trail camera, trail cameras on some waters out in this flat, thick country in the desert. And there's no way to glass this country because it's so thick and flat, but we had these trail cameras. And we ended up having a giant bull come into the water, and so we knew he's there. But really, like, how are we going to hunt that bull? That was our challenge. And so we tried everything, like anything we could think of. It's sandy country, so we were brushing out tracks at the water every single day. Dragging a tree.

Yeah, dragging a tree up and down the road, and just waiting for tracks to come across to try to figure out where this bull's going, What direction is he coming in from? To try to just figure this out. It came to the point where this bull was good enough, and I remember Jason was like, it's this bull or nothing. We're either going to kill this bull or we're going to go home without one. Because this unit had another area that was up on the mountain where you could shoot a bull. And there were .350 and .360 bulls that we had that we could have shot, but Jason wanted this bull. And he was worth investing everything into. And so, we moved all our stuff out to that area. Slept in the back of the truck. Yeah, slept in the back of the truck. Cold freaking sucker. That was about the coldest I've ever been. Where was Canvas Cutter when we needed it?

No kidding. We were sleeping in the back of that truck, and it was just freezing. Anyway, day after day would go by, because we went out early to scout. And it's only a five-day season, so those extra days were huge. We're hunting, and the season comes along, and we're in like four days, and it's closing in quick, and we're thinking, this is not going to happen. But we just kept after it. We're trying to figure out what to do, and so we pull out the maps again, and we think, well, there's some waters that we have not been to. Let's just go check them out and see if we can do anything else to make this happen.

And it was the middle of the afternoon. I think about, we had lunch, and I think it's one o'clock or so, and we started driving the four-wheeler. We just started driving. We were gonna just do something. Maybe we'd cut a track in the sand. Maybe we'd catch him on water. Something. But we weren't gonna quit. We were just keep moving and keep after it. We're driving along, and we were miles from the water that we had him cameraing on. We come around this corner and look on the four-wheeler, and this bull is standing on the side of the road, rutting a cow. 50 yards. Yeah, 50 yards. I mean, his wanger was hanging out. We're not talking we think he was breeding. He was breeding. He was a little bit dumb in the rut, because he stood there for just a second,

And it was a cluster. Dude, I had a full gun case, latched down, everything strapped down with 14 freaking bungees, you know, all the backpacks on top of that. Yeah, because you can't carry the gun uncovered on the four wheel. Well, all of that is, dude, it's like, where are you going to put all your gear? And Chris is filming, and he's got all his shiz, and I got all my shiz. Long distance optics that you don't need, because you can't see 20 yards. And so, anyway, by the time we got the gun off the bike, the bike stopped, turned off, Then what? Took a shot, and it was probably 50 yards, and we were in a thick country, and that bull just took off into the trees. And we ran. Yeah, we ran on foot as fast as we could run after that bull, and he was hit good, but we were able to get another shot in him.

Jason, I don't know how he did it, but it was just perfect. He dropped to the ground at just the right moment, and that bull was in a spot where there was an opening in the trees where he could see the vitals. And he was able to thread a shot right through there, and that bull came down. And it was just one of those experiences that you always remember because you worked so hard and you thought that it was not going to happen, but we just didn't give up. And it's kind of a testament to never giving up. Just like this last year, Chris, when you killed that bull the last day. Yeah. Basically, the last of the morning. We're basically done. We're driving home.

You know, driving roads works, right? We're driving home and notice a bull outside the window, the bull we've been looking for. And we're like, what the crap, there he is. And anyway, we'll save that story for another podcast. But it is staying, it is staying till the end. It's, you know, and yeah, the end was only five days, but four days pre-scout on top of that, it gets to be a nine to ten day project and a grind. There's no elk there. The unit was closed because there's no elk. Anyway, John, tell us about your big bull out here out west. Tell us that story. Southwest desert. Yeah. That was fun because we had a team there. For me, hunting with people that I enjoy makes it for me. So, going out and, you know, the camp life and the scouting and all that, pre and post, you know, that's what makes it fun and rewarding.

And, wow, I'd scouted that like crazy, but like you said, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't in the rut. And so, I was able to learn a lot, but really didn't turn up anything that we were really going for. And then, everybody else showed up, and we did a big camp. I do want to tell one story. Right before. I was newly remarried at the time. And she's from France. So, I've never been around elk hunting or anything, you know, of the sort. So, when we were scouting one time, we were out and we had camped and we were in the back of the truck, just sleeping in the back of the truck. Well, an elk comes up in the middle of the night, right next to the truck, and bugles. Come on. And she about came out of her skin. So, your wife freaks out. She's from France. She's like, freaks out. She looks up. That doesn't sound like a red stock. She's like, yeah, she thinks, you know.

Anyway, I didn't even wake up. And she's just like, John, John, there's a bull right there. All of a sudden, she's acting like she likes you. Yeah, so she thought he was gonna eat us, you know. I've just never been around it, so that was fun. But then just ate it up after that. You know, just loved the experience. And then everybody, you know, came out. Like I said, it was just fun. One of the other, you know, fun things that happened on that. Not fun for Dusty, but he got hit by lightning. Oh, I forgot about that. And was numb. You know, for days, Dusty. But yeah. Yeah, he got hit by lightning. He was unloading his four-wheeler or loading it. I think it was loading it. And, oh, he's unloading it. Anyway, lightning hit, he had like a metal rack in his truck or whatever. Lightning hit the metal rack and ended up kind of getting him by default, not a direct hit. Yeah, but close enough.

But his feet were on fire. His feet were on fire, and we ended up, we went back to the cabin, we were staying in the cabin. He had his, I'll never forget, he had his shoes kicked off, and like he'd been there all night, and we're like, He's like, oh, you're just enjoying a nice evening at the cabin, huh? You know, and he's like, I get hit by lightning, and my feet are on fire right now. We're like, no way, they're on fire, and he goes, they're burning, burning. Blew through the end of his toes and burned his feet, you know. You can see that. You can see that. I don't know. I didn't say, hey, show me your big toe, but yeah, he got hit, and it was a significant hit on him. So, anyway. I had numb for a while after that, but yeah, that was kind of crazy. Anyway, long story short, we hunted pretty hard, and we were chasing bulls and on them and whatnot, but the bull I finally ended up killing.

My buddy Kurt located just glass, and it was nice because I had a group of friends, four or five of us, and we'd split up mornings and stuff. And Kurt found this bull, and he said, yeah, I think there's two of them, and real nice, probably 360, 350, 360 type range. And so, we were on him the next, well, that afternoon. We were on him, we found him, and I put a, and it's on our YouTube video, I think, that video. But put around him, I thought he was done. We were jumping up and down, celebrating. We all thought he was done. Everybody that looks at him is like, what bullet did you use? Because I'm not using that bullet. But just, I mean, he went down, and I still remember in the scope, just watching him, boom, fall. It's a fall. Even on the video, if you watch the video, that bull is center-punched.

I don't know, a bullet performance somehow. It was an acubon, and I've never had one fail. They're one of my favorites. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what to say. To continue with the story, he dropped, and we thought he was done. We were hugging, and I was so happy. And then, all of a sudden, the bull's not laying there, you know, because we stopped for a second looking at it. And so, Jason's like, run, run! You know, and I'm running up there as fast as I can. There's a running theme going on. There is. And I do run. Hey, people won't think I run, okay? But I was Cameron Haynes in it. You know what I'm saying? You were. And anyway, the bull was gone. And he was bleeding, and he was coughing up stuff.

I mean, we hit some stuff in there. We ran him two miles. And he just went like a tank. So, we let him, you know, be and thought, well, we'll come back in the morning and find him dead. Track him down. We tracked him down, and he wasn't dead, and he was moving. We were tracking tracks. We weren't even tracking blood. We were tracking tracks. And then we had to run him again. And you guys were running. And finally he turned around and barked at us, remember? Yep, yep. And you kind of see it on the video, but you don't, you know, you're running two miles with a gun and a pack and all that stuff. And, you know, Jason had been hunting a lot that year and was in pretty good shape, and everybody else was in pretty good shape. And I'd been working in the office like crazy, and I was not in good shape. I was, felt like I was coughing up blood. John's like, I'm coughing up blood, and I'm like, oh.

I finally caught up. I'm thinking, we're gonna hit the SOS button. Where's my end reach? He barked, and Jason grabbed me and put one in him. So, I grabbed John right there, and he's foaming at the mouth. It was an unfortunate deal, because we earned, he earned, you know, it was not like we took a bad shot and made a bad call and wounded a bull. It wasn't like that. It was a perfect shot. And it hit him in the chest square. It's like, and then, you know, you get to tell him this story, and I've got a few good friends of mine that they know specific animals that have lived on one lung. And when they killed him, they got him, and the lung was black and tiny, shriveled. And the body adapts and lives on one lung. And it's multiple times. So, anyway, maybe it hit a rib, deflected, maybe it deflected off a branch and went in sideways, didn't get the full penetration. I don't know.

You know, after John was done with him, it's like you couldn't really tell. It's not like when we got him, you could make heads or tails of exactly what happened. Anyway, I got him down, and I collapsed and was just trying to breathe. John was hugging the earth. It seemed like you laid on the ground for 15 minutes. I did, I did. But then after that, you know, we just took pictures and taped them out at 361. And for me, you know, it was like a 400-inch bull. Like, really, I was with, you know, all my buddies, and it was just, you know, one hunt of my lifetime. Awesome experience. Well, alright, any other stories we want to dive into real quick? I've got one last question we can go to to finish it up. Alright, let's do it. Should we do one last? Do you have a story? No. Anything else? We're happy. This thing's grinding out. We're gonna need 14 monsters for you then. All right, here we go.

So, one guy, he did say last year I had a bull in a dry desert type unit. That's Paul. It was thick country and really flat. Hunting was super tough. We would see signs and tracks, but bulls were super hard to see and possibly nocturnal. I don't know if it was unseasonally warm weather or the dry climate that kept them from being more visible and active during the day. What suggestions you have in a situation like that? How would you go about finding a bull? So, the bull, the 385 bull in Southwest Desert that we talked about, we worked that very hard. Could have hunted the archery, rifle, ended up with the muzzle, hunting in the muzzle. Worked the rifle really hard, and the way we did it, they weren't talking, they weren't rutting, and it was hot, 90 degrees plus, and so we ran truck cameras. What else are you going to do in the middle of the day?

You're laying around doing nothing, right? Yeah, the elk are not visible. No, you're not gonna go walk through bedding areas randomly. Like, who does that? You know what I mean? And you're not glassing them. They might be up and down a little bit, and you could glass them. But you're really chilling out. Well, we didn't chill out. We freaking ran cameras hard. We ran knowing it was a tough year, and it was brutal, and we'd run 35 cameras in the middle of the day, and we'd check them every day. Because bulls will move into rut, and they need water. Elk need water in September when they're rutting. They're freaking, the cows go to water, the bulls follow the cows, and they rut, and they're social. They're social around water. And so, we ran cameras really hard, and this bull, the bull I killed, moved in September 23rd.

And who knows where he came from, but he moved in, and he kind of stayed there. We would get multiple pictures of him. And so, it kind of gave us the confidence to keep pounding it. Had we not done that, or had the camera pictures of him, he wasn't that vocal. He was a smart bull. And so, we wouldn't have really pounded that area enough to have killed him. It just kept us going, kept us going back, kept us going back, kept us going back. And we worked it and ended up getting a visual on him, glassed him from a rocky knob coming into a chained area, and then he would go back into the thick stuff, really thick stuff. And so, I got to learn his bugle a little bit. Heard him bugle one day, he bugled one too many times. And he was answering me, and he just bugled one too many times. We got a bead on where he was,

and I got up on top of these thick trees, and pretty soon he'd come out and ended up shooting with a muzzleloader. And I don't like muzzleloaders. I do love muzzleloaders, but elk eat muzzleloader rounds like they're grass. I mean, they can eat the rounds. It's not like they got the shock and the foot pounds of energy. They got a big slug, so you're throwing a rock through them, But it's slow, you know what I mean? It's pushing it through them. And so, I don't know what it is, but they, man, he was eating these power belts like crazy. And anyway, ended up killing him, and it was an open sight, even though you can use scopes here in Utah. But that's kind of part of it. I think it's going back to like what you were talking about, Chris, is you do everything you can do, everything you can think of, and you keep going, and you grind it out.

Sometimes it's tougher. They're vulnerable. Every animal during every season, there's something vulnerable, whether it's where they feed, whether it's the country they're living in that's glassable, whether it's rutting, noise, water, the need for water, the lack of water makes it to where you should hunt water. Something, that animal is vulnerable, and you've got to find where they're vulnerable and capitalize on that. And so, anyway, we've learned about We had a lot of elk that year by working all day long. We worked and worked. And then we didn't, too, as we've talked on prior podcasts, not limiting yourself to one part of the unit. We didn't limit ourselves to part of the unit. We worked a large part of the unit and didn't know where the biggest bull would be found. And so, treated it as if the biggest bull could

have been found anywhere, even though we, like everybody, has favorite parts of the unit. And so, anyway, is there anything you guys want to add to that? I don't think we're good today. I think we'll call it good. Let's do a little something-something for Cheston, our good buddy at Phonescope. He's a good dude, and coming out with some new products. Of course, you're going to see him. Yeah, just a constant inventor, the dude is. He's. You know, just coming up with stuff, and now he's figured out how to make his inventions and take them to market and all that stuff. He must like money. He must like money. He's a lover of money.

But he's good at it and makes some awesome products. Everybody has seen our footage, especially the footage from last year from Adam's Hunt on that 220 buck that he killed. If you haven't seen it, go to YouTube, look that up. It's a Henry's Hunt from Utah, and there's a ton of phone scope footage on there, and it's just pristine. It's awesome. But we used the PhoneScope from Chestyn, and you just hook it right up to your phone, and then slip it right onto your spotting scope and get some awesome footage. So, go visit PhoneScope.com. That's P-H-O-N-E-S-K-O-P-E dot com. And he's got, you just, it's really easy to order. Choose your scope, choose your phone, and it spits out exactly what you should order.

Well, one other guy we've got to really send a shout out to is the guys up to Kent's Optics, our good friends up there. They've been out guiding antelope hunters and stuff, the Harrow boys up there. But anyway, if you're looking for any kind of optics as far as Vortex, Night Force, Swarovski, Zeiss, they have it. And they can get it to you pretty quick in most circumstances. They also carry phone scope stuff, too. But anyway, great guys up there. Give them a call, especially if you've got questions. I've sent a couple guys up there recently, had questions. Well, I'm trying to match this with this, and what's my best option for a backpack or, you know, scope or this? Or what tripod should I be using? What's the best tripod? We've ordered our tripods for these guys, and we did it years ago before, you know. Well, you've known them for years. I've known them for years.

You've even done their plumbing. So, they... Yeah, there you go. Every time they go to the throne, they think of you. There you go.

As long as it keeps bringing business in, yeah, do your business, we'll take your business. Anyway, but they're great guys. Give them a call at 435-257-7014. You can also check them out at kentsoftics.com. Great guys. They are. They're great guys, and we'll be sharing a booth with them at the Expo again this next year. They had an amazing, world-class shed collection. Absolute world-class shed collection. And so, anyway, for those of you that are We're looking forward to that. Come visit us. We'll be at the Expo and throw a little shout-out to that. And then, you know, I did want to talk about Red Rock Precision. I killed my bull last year with their gun. It's pretty amazing. It's lightweight. Fantastic job. I think we could still get you an epic series if you asked about it. They're dipping them in Ridge Reaper and QU, I think. You'd think QU is an option right now.

So, great opportunity there to get a Red Rock precision rifle, and it's an unbelievable shooting gun. It's just crazy how good it shoots. And so, we've dealt with Todd Scholle and Kurt Pilcher for many years. Known of them, they're super good guys. They're building a lot of these guys' guns, and people are killing stuff with them. So, anyway, we'd like to thank them for their support, and we love their rifles. And so, don't feel bad about hitting up Red Rock and getting a gun on order. You can check them out at www.redrockprecision.com. I guess we could spell that out. There's guys like me that don't know how to spell. R-E-D-R-O-C-K-P-R-E-C-I-S-I-O-N.com. Or call them at 801-391-7840. And they'll get a recipe for your gun. Build as many rounds as you want.

We usually get a couple hundred if we can, and then they'll have it on file and be able to build you more rounds, or give you the recipe and you can build your own rounds. But great guys, great products, one of the best products out there. So, I guess that's about it. Let's call it a day. Over and out.