EP 46: Mule Deer, Lions, Elk, and More with the Whitaker Bros.

And no one really knows what is there as far as deer. I love big mule deer. You guys love big mule deer. Three different angles I'm trying to get choppers. How can I save my brother's life? Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter here with the Epic Outdoors podcast. We got another podcast coming at you. You know, before we get started, I'd like to thank Under Armour for sponsoring these podcasts and working with Epic Outdoors. We're doing a lot with them and we sure appreciate their sponsorship and support. They've got a lot of cool products coming out, a lot of which have just been unveiled. And so anyway, you might want to visit underarmour.com, check out the spores, go down and click on hunting and see what's out there. So anyway, we do appreciate them. We've worked with them for many, many years on different projects. And anyway, they're an awesome company, a great group of guys. And just want to shout out to them how much we appreciate them and looking forward to the future.

So anyway, as we get started here, I've got Josh and Jason Whitaker on the line. These guys are extremely hardcore hunters. I can say it and maybe embarrass them a little bit, but they're some of the most hardcore hunters I've ever met. These guys are incredible, right in the prime of their life, killing stuff and guiding a lot of hunters. They've got a lot of different things going on. They're acquiring other guide businesses as well as a very successful business of their own. And just owning the West, especially Colorado and New Mexico and who knows what else, but we're going to get into that with them. And old Mexico as well. So I've just got a vast amount of experience between them in Western big game as well as lions and bears and who knows what else. But, you know, for their age, I don't know anybody with more experience.

And just been a pleasure to know these guys and been around them and just developed a huge amount of respect for them. So Josh and Jason, you on? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. So anyway, I know you guys are very humble dudes and, you know, probably an intro like that, you may agree or disagree. But I do appreciate you guys and I do look up to you and think the world of what you've got going on. Likewise. Thanks for having us, Carter. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. You bet. And so let's see. I want to get into your background and kind of how you guys got started. I feel like I need to do like 14 more introductions because I just can't tell people. I can't tell people, you know, enough of how much experience you guys have. You guys are a very, you know, important guest to me to have on the podcast. Awesome. You guys say it the way it is. You're very straightforward.

Your clients love you for it. Trust what you have to say. And so anyway, I know, you know, I knew a little bit about you guys. I don't know how many years ago it was, maybe four or five years ago-ish. You know, I met you guys up at the Deseret when you guys were guiding some hunters for those guys. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, sir. And it was interesting. I mean, of course, you guys are quiet and you're always, you know, a little bit reserved when meeting new people. But anyway, I learned right off you guys were the guys that knew your stuff and were, you know, doing a great job for the clients you had. And your reputation preceded you a bit as far as, you know, what everybody thought of you and how well you guys, you know, are doing at killing stuff. And so anyway, give us, with that basic introduction, maybe give us just a little bit of background of where you guys were raised.

Like, who are you guys and what you did when you were young and how you got to where you're at today? Well, you want to start, Josh? I guess. It doesn't matter. Well, we're originally from North Carolina, Tar Heel State. But we moved out west when we were eight. And it's kind of funny that how we got started hunting. Nobody got us into hunting. When we were little kids, like six, seven years old, our dad back home, some of his buddies showed up one time and they had like four white tail does in the back of an El Camino, of all things. If you can picture that stacked up like cordwood. And because our dad was not a hunter, he killed one deer in his life. And that's it. I mean, was not a hundred. But we seen this when we were little kids. And Jason and I were just like, we were hooked in awe when we seen it. Yeah, we were just hooked. And you were hooked on the El Camino and does. Yes.

That's what got us. All right. All right. So don't judge Carter. So we started, you know, as little kids with Red Ryder BB guns, just out, you know, doing our thing. And another deal that got us rolling, like in the trapping world, we were very much believers in trapping. We've done it our whole life. We absolutely love it. And we were at a yard sale when we were little kids with our mother. And we seen these two five-gallon buckets that said animal traps. So we go over there. And they're these one-and-a-half-size coil spring traps. And we begged our mom to get us a couple. They were like $2 a piece. So she bought two traps. And Chase and I, we took them home. And, man, the rest is history, I guess. We didn't have a clue what we were doing. We didn't know a trapper. Never been around one. But we just went out. And we've always lived in the country, everywhere we've been.

And so we was blessed in that aspect, just being able to get out literally from our door and go explore. And that's kind of literally how we got the bug. I mean, we got it at a very young age. And we've just been part of it ever since. So you buy, you get these traps. I mean, where are you at location-wise? Like, what are you trapping? We are in Colorado. Like the eastern plains? Yes. And so, you know, you get these traps and you're out trapping. You're trapping fox, coyote, bobcat. I mean, anything, everything? Yes. All of the above. All of the above, pretty much. I mean, we first started with skunks and red fox. That's what we started with. And then, you know, once we got our hand in and started learning stuff, we just, we went to pretty much all the fur bearers that we could possibly, that was in our country. Wow. So. So you guys are self-taught. You're 10 years old.

I don't know, 9, 10-ish? Yeah. Yeah. Around there. And just, you're out trapping and killing stuff. Just, I mean, that's it. Just you two learning how to do it. Yes. Yeah. Just on our own. And we just became obsessed with, you know, reading sign and just exploring together. You know, we'd just, we'd go out and spend all day just looking at sign and just being kids, you know, in the outdoors. And that, and they just, that's how we were, got started. Wow. That's crazy. And Josh, what were you going to say about your dad? Well, our dad just, he was not a hunter, trapper, nothing. I mean, he was a farrier and he trained horses and all he eat, sleep, and breathed was being horseback and, and which we're pretty much the same way. I mean, we've been raised horseback our whole life and, and we're, you know, we're very much

into that, all that stuff, but we just, gosh, for, for quite a while, Jason and I literally just learned stuff on our own, just being out experiencing it on our own, you know, and then, you know, a few years later, we, we got to meet some older hunters and, you know, they kind of took us under their wing and, and, you know, helped us along the way. But, wow, that's crazy. Well, I know, you know, back in those days, that's, well, let's see. I mean, you guys are, that's like 25 years ago-ish, right? Yes. Maybe a little more. And so, I mean, back. Yeah, we're, we're 38 now. Yeah. And so back in those days, there was giant mule deer roaming the plains. I mean, there still is depending on the place, but, but I mean, you guys, it was probably pretty incredible, you know, but you didn't know it, you weren't old enough to know

what, but, but I'm always thinking mule deer, so I guess that's what's going on. Yeah, well, that's, that was our first. On the game side of it, that was the first passion we had was, was big mule deer. And, you know, back in the day, Carter, the talk was not score, it was how wide he was. You know what I mean? The 30-inch buck was the, that was the thing. Holy grail. And so that's, and that's how we got started with, with mule deer, because we'd be out horseback in the middle of nowhere and we'd jump a big old buck and it just, we, we grew to love it from then on. Well, and back then, you guys are probably developing relationships with landowners. You're, you're, are you down in that southeast corner, like Trinidad country? Yes, just north of the Trinidad country. Yeah. We grew up, but still southern. Okay. And so you're learning, you know, you've got probably access.

I mean, back then, you know, landowners weren't as, I don't know, they're pretty protective nowadays, but I mean, you know, back then you probably had free reign of a lot of country, you know? Yeah, all over. Yeah. Yes. Geez. Yeah. Nobody ever said anything when we were kids. We just, I mean, everybody where we lived knew us, obviously, and we just, heck, we went anywhere we wanted to. Probably driving trucks at 10 years old, doing whatever. Oh yeah, of course.

So, all right. So you're, now let's go through high school and how, like, keep, keep rolling with me on what you're doing and how you're developing your business. So, so after school, we, we started guiding right after school and the guy that got us into guiding was, his name's Ralph Pagnota, still a dear friend. His son is actually one of our top end guides, one of the best guides and legit guys in the country probably. And, uh, well, Ralph got us into guiding and so right out of school, we did it. But our first experience actually taking somebody, um, was one of our dad's friends from North Carolina. He came out and we were 16 years old and it was just a friendly deal. It was one of dad's buddies. We told him we could get him a 30 inch buck, you know, and we were just a couple of 16 year old punk kids, you know, but we knew where some good deer were.

And so he came out and we just went, all went out as friends. And on the third day of the hunt, we killed a, a 31 inch five by five. And that at that moment, that's what created the monsters right there. That, that is what the dream right there. Yeah. We knew into us. We knew from there that early of an age that this is what we wanted to do for a living. Wow. So what about the horse thing? Were you thinking about following in dad's footsteps a little bit? I know you guys are still into it. Of course, I see everything on Instagram, but, um, I mean, were you, or was it just, yeah, maybe we'll do a little horse and a little and rodeo and then, and then, uh, hunting as well, or. It was a little of both. We knew we were going to be doing the horseback thing forever because it's just who we were. But as far as career wise, we knew what we wanted to do.

Um, and so we just started pursuing it early on and it was a really long road getting there. And, but we were fortunate, you know, to run into some really good hunters and a lot of doors were opened and we didn't get to where we are now, uh, uh, by ourselves. I mean, we had a lot of, a lot of help along the way. We, I mean, we ran into some, you know, some heavy hitter guys that were just incredible hunters. And, and so we, you know, guys like that took us under their wing and, and we, we were just a sponge. I mean, we watched them and learned from them and seen how they did things and, and, and we took that into our, uh, business and, and how we got started. And, and so it was just a, so it's a long story how we, how we got going, but yeah. And it's hard to quantify. It's hard to quantify like, yeah, this is what led to this and this, but I can see it. You guys, uh, you're twins.

Um, and I think we may have covered that, but just so everybody knows you guys are twins and, uh, well, which one of you guys is older than the other? I am Josh. He's old. Oh, okay. 24 minutes. All right. So that makes me the boss. That's right. That's right. So, uh, and so were you always tight? I mean, obviously, you know, I, I don't always, always tight. Okay. Cause I don't even have a brother. I don't even have a brother. I can't imagine, you know, having somebody to do everything with, you know, it'd be pretty amazing, but I know a lot of brothers don't get along as well. So. Yeah. We've always been really, really close. Um, well, as far as we can remember and, and it's, it's never changed. And that's, that's one good thing we had is we would, we could push each other, you know, and if one of us done something stupid, the other one would call him out on it and vice versa.

And, and so we just had each other to, to push each other and, and, you know, go into this deal together. Cause we all, we've had the same interest in the same love for it. So we capitalized on that. Yeah. And so. Wow. And so tell me about your business. Let's say a couple of years ago, I know you guys have kind of gone crazy doing all kinds of things now, but like the basis for Whitaker brothers hunting is, I mean, I know you're doing bear line, but I don't know how much versus, you know, the deer and the elk and the different States. So kind of give me a rough of where we're at. Well, now the majority of our, our hunts are probably mule deer, elk, and antelope. We probably have more of that than anything. What Josh and I like to do the most probably is hound hunt lions and bears. Um, but that's the, the least of what we do with clientele.

Anyway, we do a lot of it on our own and whatnot, but, um, with the clients, uh, our operation is mostly mule deer and then probably antelope and then elk and then down the line. Okay. So, and then, you know, like when we first started guiding, we were, we were always guiding for other people and, and it, and we got to the point where, you know, it's like, gosh, you see things you don't like. And you know what I'm talking about, Carter, with the, you know, the dishonesty and the overselling stuff. And, and so we just, we, we made it a point to start our own thing. Even if it was tiny, we were going to try to do it the way we wanted to do it and keep it legit. And, and so we broke out on our own and, and then in the last, what bro, probably six or seven years, we've just slowly started expanding and.

You know, and it's just been, it's been unbelievable how, how the expansion has been the last few years and we took on a partner. One of our best friends in life is named Mark Peterson and, you know, Mark Carter. Yeah. And so, I mean, we sat down and, and talked about it and decided, you know, let's, let's go, let's expand. Let's try to, to make the best legit outfit there is in Colorado or wherever we are. And, and so we're just continuing to grow and it's almost like we, we can't be satisfied. I mean, I, once you get to, to seeing clientele successful and stuff, it just, it becomes a sickness. I mean, you just cannot get enough of it. And, and so we're, we're continuing, continuing to expand and trying to expand anyway. It's really hard, but the stuff we gathered up, we've cut way back on hunters, like what most outfitters would do. We're doing half that on the same amount of dirt.

So we're having to expand to get to, you know, to make it work financially. And so we're getting pretty spread out, but we have a, a great team of guides and we got an office lady now that's just bomb proof. She, she takes care of us for sure. And, and as so does our staff, I mean, we have a great staff and so it's just, it's really working out. Well, and it, and it does seem that way. And I know I haven't dealt with Mark a ton, but from what I've seen of him and I'm, I'm a pretty good read of people. I'm extremely impressed with the guy. Yeah. Mark is, he is an excellent partner and he's hungry. Like we are, you know, Mark is a, he's a no settle type of a guy. And, and that's just, that's the way we are. We just, we just don't settle. I mean, we were always striving for more and, and I think to really hit something the best it can be, you have to almost obsess over it.

And I mean, I know that's, some people take that word differently, but I mean, Jason and I have kind of obsessed over our operation. And I think doing that is, is why it's where it's at today. I really do. Yeah. No, if any, anybody that's extremely successful has lived for their business and sometimes that is, that's less than healthy. You know, sometimes we let fam, we got families and all, I mean, you guys know all that, you know, and, but, but at the same time, it's a cutthroat business. People are willing to guide people for nothing just for the neuriety on Instagram or social media, you know, Facebook or whatever. Exactly. And I, and I can't wait to visit with you guys about that. But, um, you know, that's the truth of it is people are willing to do stuff for nothing and, and, and you're competing with that and, uh, and you're competing with, you know, empty

promises and stuff on your leases, people, you know, hitting up your landowners. Yep. It's just a cutthroat world. It's tough. And, uh. It sure is. Yeah. So, but you guys, I mean, you know, you'll keep grinding it out and there's no question you'll be doing it till the day you die. I have no, no question in my mind. We sure hope so. And so, uh, tell me about the lions and bears. I know, I mean, I know you guys love it. That's the biggest, uh, outflow in a business. I mean, lions and people don't make money on lions and bears. You basically feed your dogs. But, but tell me a little bit about the, how you got into that and the addiction to the hounds. Yeah. It's, that's kind of another funny story, how we got started. Jason and I, we've always just, we don't love hunting one thing. We pretty much love hunting everything. The lion deal. I mean, we just wanted to kill lions.

And so we just kind of looked into it. Save the deer. Yeah, exactly. Save the deer. They're hell on deer. So. Yeah. Uh, but I got in the back of a magazine called fur fishing game years ago. Yeah. And I found an ad of some people in South Dakota selling some Walker hounds and I called them and bought a dog. Drove to South Dakota, picked it up. And that's literally how we got started with dogs. And. Wow. Boy, has it changed since then? I mean, we just, we went through many, many dogs, lots of breeds and a lot of train wrecks. I mean, so many people have the wrong conception of lion and bear hunting with hounds. They think it's just, it's not fair chase. It's just, just a pop-up simple deal. And it, that's as far from the truth as, as you can possibly get. Um, we, for the first, you know, few, quite a few years that we were doing the lions, um, we were just snow guys period.

I mean, we, we sat around and waited on snow when it snowed, we were out. And we finally got to the point where, you know, just through talking with people and reading and, uh, we got really, really intrigued with the Southwest line hunters. Uh, the bare ground guys, we changed up our whole way of hunting. I mean, we, we had to change dogs. I mean, some of our dogs just, they literally could not do it. They just didn't have the nose for it. Um, it's just been years and years of trial and error to try to get it right. Um, we've still, we're a million miles from, from conquering it, but we're still, I mean, we're putting a lot into it. Um, and now we pretty much what we wanted, our goal was to just be versatile houndsman. You know, we wanted to be able to, to hit snow country and have success, you know, wherever it might be.

We just wanted to be able to go there and successfully catch game with our hounds. And, uh, it's just been just the fun with that has been unbelievable. Unbelievable. So how many dogs have you got? We've got right now, we've got counting some young stuff. We've got 14, 14 dogs. Well, and we usually, we never run more than eight at a time. Um, and rarely do we, do we run that many? Yeah. We normally don't run a whole lot of dogs. Even eight together. But yeah, we, uh, yeah, I mean, it's just a, a big passion. It's, it's all about the dogs for us. Uh, we love training them. We don't buy broke old dogs. We, uh, we train them, we raise them up and train them ourselves. Um, you know, we've got some stuff out of Nevada and Arizona, you know, that we get young and then raise it up, train them ourselves. We, we hunt horseback a lot, muleback. We free cast, you know, hike canyons on foot.

We hunt from snow machines, um, track rangers. I mean, we, we try to cover every basis there is. Wow. That's crazy. It's an amount, it's an amazing amount of resources that goes into bearing lions. You know? I mean. Yes. Yes. They should be $15,000. I mean, people can't believe the dog food and the vet bills and just the overall, you know, breaking down equipment. Oh, it's the hardest thing. It's hardest thing on trucks ever, ever. It is. It is. And, but we just, our, the goal was just being more versatile, you know, and, and, uh, we have a high respect for all types of line hunters. You know, the guys in the cold country of Idaho and Montana. I mean, them guys, the tracks that they deal with and the weather that they're in is, is incredible. I mean, people just have no idea. It's brutal. And then, you know, down in Arizona, you know, catching them in 80 degree weather.

I mean, it's all just, it's all amazing and it's all very, very cool. Yeah. And you guys are doing the same thing. I've seen some of your posts and different things of letting the dogs cool down and just a lot of, you can tell it's just hard on everything. Yes, it sure is. So, and so, um, you know, there's not a lot else going. Of course you got that late, you got that late rifle, you know, on some of those premium tags on the planes and then I guess you're jumping to Mexico. I mean, you guys are cranking even in some crazy stuff in Mexico. Yes. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about that. How did you get going in Mexico? I mean, I can't believe some of the country that you're in, of course you killed an elk down there. I didn't even know they had elk in Mexico. Well, we didn't either till, gosh, it wasn't eight months ago or something, whatever it

was, I can't even remember now, but we knew there was elk there, but high fence elk. Um, there's some places in, uh, I can't remember what state it is, but they, you know, there's some high fence operations that, that, that kill them. But as far as free range, we had no idea. Yeah. And we just lucked, lucked onto this deal through a good friend of ours, Hugh Fidel. And, uh, so we, we capitalized on it and, and decided to pull the trigger on it and went down there and had just a insane hunt. It was crazy, unbelievable country, really big country. Um, took a great bull with, with a longtime client and friend, Art Pierce. And, uh, it went really, couldn't have went better actually. And then, and Josh ended up getting bad hurt with a knife. So, yeah. So I want to, all right. So let's, let's come back to the knife. Cause I can't wait for it.

But tell me like, how did you trust that there's big enough bulls? Is this guy showing you sheds? I mean, you know, and I know Art, like Art's been in the industry, I mean, ever since I was in diapers. I mean, this guy has done everything and, uh, and he loves the coos deer and he loves that desert stuff. At least that's what I picture him in with the cowboy hat on. But, you know, it just, but just tell me like, how, how do you trust that there's good enough bulls for you guys to take a chance on this? Well, we, there had only been one elk killed on this place. Um, they just, they issue tags for two years. That's it. And yeah, this was the second year. There's never been an outfitter do it. And so, but the guy we were dealing with is very savvy and very honest. I mean, the guy is super legit. And, uh, so what he says, you can take to the bank.

So we just picked his brain for a month at a time. And he would kind of tell us what he thought was there and whatnot and what they're seeing trail cams or whatever. And, and, but we didn't go into this deal looking for a giant bull. We went into it looking for an experience and, and art art is a numbers guy. Art likes to kill big stuff. And especially elk and coos deer and everything really, um, art loves to kill big stuff. But he went into this deal going thinking, you know, okay, well, we're actually going to be hunting free range elk in old Mexico. So how cool is that? That's yeah. How cool is that? He said, I'm not going to really worry about the size. It's all going to be about the experience. So, so we, we jumped on it. Jeez. All right. So, and I know you and I've talked about the odd species of mule deer down there. Tell me a little bit about that.

I mean, you guys are on, I mean, you guys are like on cutting edge of this stuff and I've been going to Mexico for, I don't know how many years, but it's crazy. The envelope you guys are pushing to, to learn new stuff, species, all kinds of stuff. Yes. I mean, it's all about the adventure for us. And we've been, we've been going to Mexico. This was our 17th year in a row, uh, hunting Mexico. And, and we have slacked up a little bit just due to having families. Now I have a, a three-year-old and a, almost a six month old and, and man, I just being away from home, it's just not for me anymore. And so, and that, you know, there again, that is one reason why we have expanded our U.S. operation the way we have is so we can be closer to our families. And. So are you both married? You're both married now? Yes. Yes. Both married to Italian women named Renee. Come on. Explain. Get serious.

I mean, yeah, that's, that's Jerry Springer stuff, but yeah. Jerry Springer.

Oh, dude. Well, I remember, let's see, which one of you guys got married first? I, Josh, Josh. So Josh gets married. Um, and if I remember right, you were like, the, the wife was like, basically felt like she had to marry you both or it wasn't going to work. Right. I mean. Yeah. But I had to divorce Jason before I get married. Okay. All right.

I remember that when there was, I remember that. And so anyway, well, good. Yeah. Families change things. I know, you know, I've got kids going everywhere. So, um, all right. So, and then can we talk about this mule deer thing? A little bit of an odd species down there that you guys were in on? There's been, who knows how, how long Tiburon has had mule deer, but they, they never hunted them for years and years. I mean, forever. They just never hunted them. And we caught wind that they were going to give out cell tags. Um, so we, we ended up getting, I think two or three of them and three total up until, up until we hit the Island. There had only been what, from what we know, two Americans kill mule deer on there. Um, and in recent years, I mean, they, they hunted it, you know, many years ago in the seventies,

I heard Americans hunted it quite a bit, but in, in recent years, there had only been a couple prior. Okay. And so we, uh, we took a couple of our main dudes on there, our main clients. And, and we had a, had a really good hunt. Um, we took, well, we actually ended up taking three cause Josh ended up getting a tag as well and just killed a, a stud deer, killed a high nineties deer on there. And, and it was just so, it was a very unique experience because I mean, it was almost unheard of, you know, and that Island is. It's massive. It's thick and, and no one really knows what is there as far as deer. And, and so I, yeah. Like could a guy kill a two 20? I remember, you know, absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Guy can. There was a giant deer killed on there after, after we were on there last same year, wasn't it Josh? Yes. It was like, it was a two 20 year. Gee, see, this is what I mean.

Like what, what's really on there. Do they have sheds like two 30, two 40? I mean, is there just crazy mass? Yes. And we've, we found a pile of sheds over the years on there and, and we found some good ones, but, but there's a, there's a sheep guide from up North that was hunting sheep on there. And he found one and Josh and I seen a picture of it and all, all the picture was, was it was just the shed and then the background. So we automatically start looking at the background to try to figure out what side of the island it was on. Yeah. Where did this guy find this shed, you know, and just stuff like that. But, um, no, it, who knows what's on there. It's. So the shed, how big, so how big was the shed? Don't veer from that. I don't know as far as score wise, but I bet there was, there was probably at least a dozen scorable points on it. Um, it was just a giant non-typical. Yeah.

It was a freak freak. So what do they call this subspecies? What were you guys calling it? Sheldoni. The Sheldoni. And, and did, I mean, are they just inbred or what's the deal? I mean, you're on an Island. I, I don't know. It was weird because the deer Josh, Josh shot on there. It looked like a normal mainland Sonora deer. I mean, identical, but the deer that our clients killed, they almost had a, a smaller, yeah. Like a black tail. You know how, how beautiful a black tail is. Yeah. They had that type of Cape. They didn't look like a real desert-y looking deer. And so that kind of threw us for a loop. We couldn't really understand that one. And we still don't really. But so I don't know. I think just for the fact that they're on Tiburon, they just made them their own subspecies. But how they got there, I don't know. But they're pretty much just a desert mule deer. Yes. Yep.

But there is some funky genetics there. I mean, we've seen some crazy stuff, some drop tines and hooks and hangers and you name it. I mean, there's, there's a lot of, a lot of funky genetics there for sure. Man, it's hard not to live there for that. You know? Yeah. You would have a fit there, Carter. Yeah. You would lose your mind there. It's brutal, tough hunting. I mean, you can go days and days. And I see a deer. The first sheep hunt we ever done there, I think in, in the, that whole sheep hunt, I believe I seen one doe, the whole sheep hunt. I mean, it is low, low density, but, but it's, I don't know. It's just, it's a grind, but it is fun. But just like anywhere, if you put your time in, you could narrow down those deer. And, and I think a guy, if you, if you hit the peak of the rut there, I bet a guy could, could have a pretty, pretty jam up good hunt there. But it's unbelievable.

Like to me, low densities, I don't know. That's just my thing. And then you end up. Yep. A couple of trips pretty soon. I mean, I don't know. And they can't get away from you. Right. Like they can't swim that far. Yeah. They can't swim that far. And we, if we grew up hunting low density mule deer. So, I mean, it's. Yeah. A lot of people get discouraged when they go a couple, two or three days and not see a deer, but it just doesn't bother us. I mean, we just, we just roll on with it and keep digging. That's like the Utah general right now. You know, days without seeing a deer. Yeah. That stuff you hunt is the same exact way. Jeez. All right. So, well, we're going to have to go in depth, you know, off the air. So, we'll, we'll visit about that a little bit more. But tell me. All right. So, you're hunting elk in, you're hunting elk in Mexico, caping it out or whatever.

Tell me a little bit about it, maybe from both perspectives, Josh and Jason. Well, we had killed this bull at a really bad, real kind of a steep hill. And I was underneath him. I cut around the front leg and I was, I just went up to the back of the front leg for the, to cape it. And I was going along the brisket. And I had my right leg down, you know, down below me just because, you know, because the hill was so steep. And my left leg was up, you know, just level with the angle of the cut I was doing. Proper. My knife slipped out and I jammed it in my thigh. And just, you know, just an accident deal. I mean, I've used knives my whole life. But it was just a kind of a freak accident. And when it first happened, I didn't, you know, none of us panicked. I thought, well, shoot. I knew immediately I was going to have to have stitches because it was big enough.

But where it got real was we absolutely could not get it stopped bleeding. And, and I mean, it was, it was pouring out. And when I put pressure on the cut, you know, we could get control of the bleeding. But if I let off just, just a little bit, I mean, it was, it was just pouring out both sides. And I just down one side of my leg and down the other. And I mean, it was just like, golly. We, so we waited and kind of hem hauled around on what to do. And I couldn't hike off because I, it was bleeding so bad. I just, I was kind of stuck. And so I had Jason, we, we carry in reach. And so we hit. Just tell me what kind of knife, what were you using? It was a Havalon Piranha. So you're a razor. And is it the long, the, the longer pointy blade or was it the blunt nose? It was the long pointy blade. And buried it in there? I don't know.

I mean, I, it happened so fast and I immediately pulled it out. So I, I mean, I. Jeez. I'm sure it buried it, but I just, I don't, I don't know, to be honest. And. Makes me queasy just thinking, just talking about it. Oh yeah. It was bad. Yeah. And so I had Jason hit the SOS button. I mean. Like you guys can't get it stopped. It's you're talking half a court cup cups of. Yeah. We, we were thinking, you know, he could bleed out on the side of that mountain. And so we immediately went into survival mode and. Cause it, it just would not stop. And with hard pressure, we could stop it. But if he let up at all, it would just gush out. So we thought, well, I mean, we didn't know if he hit the moral or, or what, you know? So we were just, especially me being his twin brother and as close as we are, I'm freaking out and I'm trying to stay calm.

And so I just go into survival mode to, you know, how can I save my brother's life? You know, so, so I went and I, I, I contact in reach, I have my phone and my in reach system with me. And, uh, so I finally get ahold of them and we're going back and forth and, and it's just nothing's happening. They're, they're, their response is very slow. At times it would be 20 or 30 minutes. And, and. And they didn't give us. Yeah. And they, they did not give us word for over two hours after I cut myself. They, we never did. You know, I'm waiting on an ETA for a chopper, just waiting and waiting. They're like, well, we're, we've contacted so-and-so we're trying to get a chopper to you. And so we're just waiting and waiting. And so then I, I, I, I'm thinking, all right, well, this is not really working. I'm going to go to plan B.

So I immediately, I call my, I text my wife on my in reach, um, mainly just for morals or just support, you know, because my wife is in the medical field and I figured she could help me. And so I contact my wife and I contact Mark, my buddy, Mark Peterson and Grant boring. Cause they've been in some pickles before and they've, they've dealt with ripcord and ripcord, uh, got Mark out of a bad spot one time. And, and, uh, so I'm hitting up Mark and Grant and they're, they're working on their end. My wife is working on her end. And my buddy, Cade Bambro from Utah was in Colorado. He, he and his brother, Matt and hunting deer. Well, they just happened to run by the house. And so Cade gets on the phone and calls his wife. She's in the military. Well, they get, she long story short, they get ahold of the, of the embassy U S consulate. Yeah. Yeah.

And so they're going to try to send, they contact Monterey. They're going to try to send a chopper as well. And I've got three different angles. I'm trying to get choppers to, to us to save Josh. And, and as soon as I got an ETA on one, as soon as I got an ETA on one, I'm just going to cancel the other ones. Cause I, I was desperate. I mean, I was, I mean, all we had was prayer. I mean, we're in the middle of nowhere. And so we really needed to help. And, uh, you got, you got a belt, like a leather belt around the city. Yes, I, we did. Well, after I ended up getting, Mark got me in contact with a ripcord. Um, cause the in reach just, it was not happening. And then they ended up telling me that they were unable to get a chopper. They were going to send a ground crew. And I thought, well, Josh will be dead by the time a ground crew gets to us. Cause we were so remote.

I mean, we flew into the ranch. I mean, there, it would have took them who knows how long to get there. And so Mark got me in touch with a ripcord and immediately the ripcord guy, you know, tells me step-by-step, you know, how to do the tourniquet and, you know, I mean, just walked me through it and pretty much made me do it. He kept, you know, asking, you know, please verify that you did this and you did that. And so, you know, we followed the steps and, uh, but after, and the in reach or a ripcord would have sent a chopper, but after in reach failed us, I thought we got to get Josh off the mountain. So what we did was we splinted his leg, wrapped him up and I put his backpack on and cinched it down. And I got behind him to where I could lift up on his pack. And, and we just eased down the mountain. He had a couple of walking sticks and so we just, it took us a while, but we finally,

finally got to the road, a two track that we could get a pickup to him. And, uh, and at this time, you know, we were communicating with some guys that were down on the two track from the ranch and they, uh, they had the plane ready to go at the headquarters. So, so we, we jump in the truck and we load Josh up and we motor to the headquarters and, and load him up. And then it's like a, it was an hour flight. We flew directly into Del Rio, Texas. And, uh, And how many hours is it from the time you, um, it was over five. From the time I got stuck till we got to the emergency room in Del Rio, it was over five hours. Five hours and still bleeding or willing to bleed if we let off. Could not let up at all. But even in the emergency room in Del Rio, even with that tourniquet, um, they would pull the, pull the pressure off and it would still bleed.

So, um, geez, so I went in there, I mean, we're, we're bloody. And I mean, I got Josh's blood all over me. I, we're still in head to toe under armor gear, you know? And I mean, we, people are staring at us like what in the world? You got elk hair on you. Yeah, exactly. So, so I go in there, they let me in and I talked to the doctor and he goes, well, I don't think it's life threatening right now, but it's limb threatening. And cause he looked at it and he immediately told Josh, he like, whoa, he said, we can't handle that here. Uh, we're going to have to fly his San Antonio. And then when I talked to him, he said, you know, it's definitely limb threatening. And so we're going to fly your brother. We have another patient that needs, uh, flight for life to San Antonio, but we take your brother is more serious. So we're going to send him first.

And, and so right there again, you know, I'm freaking out again and praying and crying and, and the bad part was I had to drive a rental for almost three hours to get to him because they wouldn't let you in with him. No. And, uh, so they took off and well, I took off before they did. And so long story short, we ended up, they flew him into, uh, San Antonio military medical center, uh, the trauma unit. And they, they worked their magic there. I mean, it was just, those people were unbelievable. And as soon as I got there, they immediately let me in. Um, there was no way of fans or bucks about it. And, and they did a bunch of tests and whatnot on Josh and, and CT scan and, and everything just came back good. And we were just, it was a miracle. I mean, everybody said we were very lucky and, and, uh, just God was good to us. You know, he got us off that mountain and got us into good hands.

And so miss, miss the femoral, but yes. Other significant, uh, yes. Vessels in there. Yes. We hit some big, some veins. They said, and that's what the, why it was bleeding so bad was the veins that, that I'd cut. And, uh, but I didn't get into like cartilage or anything. And that's what they were worried about too. Cause I guess, you know, you cut into a joint, they it's the infection is so, I mean, you have a really good chance of getting an infection. And when they got, they were raising this, they were still concerned about infection. And, uh, so they wouldn't close it. Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's an open wound right now. I mean, I have to pack it every day, um, which is excruciating just, you know, it's an open live wound and I got to shove gods down there with, with tweezers. I mean, it is. So for a couple of days, you know, we were stuck in Texas, uh, and I was the, the gauze guy.

So I would, Josh would go and wash it, take a shower and get it as clean as he could with water. Cause we weren't supposed to use anything in it kind of just let it heal on its own. And, uh, then he'd go lay on the bed and I'd put my headlamp on and get up there and, you know, clean it and try to get as much of the gunk out of it and whatnot, and then stuff it with that gauze and the way they taught us at the hospital. And, and then, cause we had, we needed to leave that, that gap open cause they, they were worried if it closed, there could be some serious infection. And well, I don't get that. I would think an open wound would get infected. I don't get that, but I don't either. Well, and what's weird is they don't, yeah. And they don't even, I'm not even on antibiotic. Um, they said, don't use any medicine and I'm not on any antibiotic.

So it's kind of weird, but way weird, but they know, I mean, they know a million times more than we do. And so we've been following their lead and I, and honestly, I think it's, it's working like a charm. Cause since day one, I've, I've been doctoring it after we got out of the hospital and, and, you know, I'm always looking at it and looking for infection and there is zero sign of infection. So it's, it's working. Thank God. Dirty Havlon. If yours looks like mine, you've got a 14 animals still haven't cleaned it. Yeah, exactly. You got the clean blade, but nothing else on that knife's clean. And so I don't, I just, man, you're so fortunate. Very fortunate. Jeez. And so when was day one? Like, when did this happen?

Oh, it was the 20th. Yeah. Jeez. October 20th. October 20th. Today's 25th. You're talking five days. Five days. And it's still not closing up yet. Oh, not even, not even close. It's like, man, I figured it would be halfway closed by now, but it's not. So. You're going to have to give your brother the guide wages that you're costing. Well, I wouldn't go that far. That's five words, but in poor art, man, he was just, I, I, we, on the mountain, we pulled, I don't know if Josh pulled it off or what, but I heard art go, oh my God. And he had this sickest look on his face. Oh, he's done probably. Yeah. When he's seen it and, uh, yeah. Cause there was a major blood clot already starting to, to form there. And it, it just, it was awful. And, uh, geez, but at the time, I mean, it was. But luckily with pressure, we could stop the bleeding. You know, otherwise, I mean, I had to bled out quick.

It's not like it bled nonstop for seven hours. It didn't. I mean, but every time the pressure was released, it was, it was coming out. Well, so I got a hundred questions, but I don't know how more of us haven't died on the side of a hill. I can't tell you how many times my knife has slipped and I've, I've got scars all over my hands. I got a few and, uh, you know, just my knee or something. And luckily I've never done anything crazy, but I don't know how it hasn't happened to us more. And I know it. I mean, it just is what it is. And these Havons are not just the Havon razor knives are amazing. I hate sharpening knives. I love razor. Yeah. Cause I'm no good at it. So I'm good at it either. Mine, mine end up like round, like my barrel. You know what I mean? Exactly. So, uh, I'm always going to use it. They're amazing tools, but they are, they can be deadly. Yeah.

And so tell me, I always thought it was not rocket science. I'm gonna wrap that belt around there until I can't, until it hurts. And that's going to call it a tourniquet. Is that not? I mean, how does a guy do it out there? Give me a quick run. That was it. We had the belt I was wearing actually has holes all the way. I mean, from the buckle to the end. Okay. And so I could just, I could pull tight on that thing and almost, you know, completely cut the circulation off of his leg if I wanted to. And so that belt was just perfect. And it was just a belt that I've been wearing for years hunting. And that's like a blessing in and of itself. Like I'm going to freaking, I'm going to go borrow some holes in my belt right now. Yeah. Oh, it was, it's perfect for that. And hopefully I'll never have to use it for that again. But at that time it really helped.

And so you mentioned the guy gave you step-by-step, like basically what were the steps? Um, on, on location of where to get, where to give the, put the tourniquet. And as far as like pressure, uh, he told me, you know, it's going to be very uncomfortable. You have to make it uncomfortable, um, to stop the blood. And so what we did is I followed his lead on it, the ripcord guy. And, and so when we, when we headed off the mountain, I really sucked it down tight. And then I told Josh, I said, when we get to the bottom and get you laid down, I'm just going to slowly start easing it off just so you can get some circulation to the rest of your leg. And which, um, I didn't know what I was talking about, but it just made sense to me at the time, you know? Well, and the spooky part was coming when we were coming down, it wasn't, I mean, after

Jason tightened the tourniquet to, to begin the trek off, it wasn't a hundred yards down the hill. I was on a stump. I mean, I couldn't feel, couldn't feel nothing from my knee down. And that was, you know, it was kind of spooky. I mean, I didn't freak or nothing, but it just, man, I just, I didn't like it. And like when your arm falls asleep from laying on your arm, sleeping. Yes. Yeah. I guess we, what did we, I think we stopped three, two to three times. I sat down, we put pressure back on the cut and then we was, you know, we took that belt loose, just, just a little bit, really wiggle my leg, you know, just to get that circulation going. Cause I wasn't sure how long your leg could go without circulation before you damage something. So I was just pretty nervous about that, but. You basically, you need to be above the cut.

I mean, you're, you know, did he tell you to clear up near your crotch? I mean, we're. Actually like, uh, way up for sure. Above high on your thigh, right below your growing area. Yeah. Yeah. Is, is where it needed to be. And you stuck your leg above your knee, like above your knee in your thigh.

Clear above. On the inside. Yes. On the inside. Yeah. Yeah. And what were you going to say about Mark? He gave me different directions on where to put the tourniquet, but I can't say that. Okay. So you, you can imagine.

All right. All right. But no, the ripcord guy was, was very helpful on that. And that's, I mean, he, that's one of the first things he did was, you know, walk me through on what to do. Just for people that don't know what ripcord is, like what it, give me a quick rundown. What is it? It's a, it's a service that if you get into a bad bind somewhere, they will come in and rescue you. And I never dealt with ripcord before, but I mean, and they got Mark out of a pinch at one time and, and, uh, he swears by him. And, uh, and so that's why, you know, we, we desperately hit them up and, uh, and they came through on that end of it and they would have sent a chopper. But by that time we had, we had committed to go down and get on the plane ourselves. Um, cause in reach that it was not happening with them. So you feel, even though you weren't a paying customer, ripcord was coming through and you

feel like they would have come through. They would have showed up. Yes. Yes. We feel yes. And, and at the time we didn't know that, uh, Cade had actually got a chopper. A Mexican chopper was actually headed to us. And then when I sent everybody the message on my in reach that the, that we had got off the mountain and we're headed to the plane, um, Cade contacted the U S consulate again, and they had that, that chopper turned around. So they had, they had one coming to us. Um, but at that time I did not know that, but, um, till it was till, you know, till we were already committed and going down. So geez, crazy. Any, uh, thoughts or words of wisdom now that you've experienced it, what to tell people something like that happens? Um, honestly have more than one way of, of communicating, of communicating with people and, and to be set up on something like ripcord.

Um, because you never know what's going to happen. If I, if we wouldn't have had a connection and if we couldn't have got to the plane, um, who knows. Well, he'd have lost his leg bare minimum. Yeah. Yes. And so you can never be too careful. Um, we both have the in reach system so we can text family and whatnot. And we, we also carry a sat phone and I'm going to do both forever from now on. And, uh, yeah. What do you, uh, how long, how, how long would you let up pressure on the tourniquet and then cinch it back down? Or, you know, where did they say it was good? You did that. Um, they, they never really said, I never even told them I was doing that. Um, they probably wouldn't have been for it because they're, you know, they're in, you know, survival mode, just like we were. But at that time, since Josh could get the blood, you know, under pretty good control with

hard pressure, I figured, you know, well, maybe I'm, I'm allowed to let up on it a little bit just so he can get some blood to the rest of his leg. And so it just, that was a decision I made and I didn't, um, I don't know if it was the right move or not, but, but we decided to roll with it. Yeah. Everything's fine today. Thankfully. Um, but thank God. Oh, it's unbelievable. So, uh, I have, I've only seen like one post on social media. You guys anti-social media or what? No, we just, we don't really get into the personal stuff much on social media. We just, we don't like that. I don't know. I've every once in a while, I'll post a picture of my pretty girls or something, but yeah, my daughters and whatnot. But, uh, no, we, we use social media for, for the business and whatnot. And, uh, but as far as stuff like that, I just, but at the time, Carter, I, we could

have got epic pictures and video, but, but in the back of my mind, I was thinking I'm not going to take pictures and video my twin brother's death. Yeah. I can, I get it. And so, I mean, I was, I was a wreck that, that entire deal really, really bothered me and it still bothers me to this day. And so at the time, you know, I'm just, I was just a mess. I mean, I was praying and crying and I just, I couldn't fathom the thought of, of losing Josh, you know? And, and so, no, we, we took very few pictures and, or we could have had one heck of a story, you know? And, and, but I just, I wasn't about to do that. I just couldn't. You don't care about it. Nothing matters. Elk in Mexico, weird beer, nothing. I was completely numb to everything and everyone else around me, but, yeah. Yeah. Uh, saving him. Man. It's unbelievable. All right. So from this elk, I want to talk about your elk.

Tell me about this giant bull. Let's, let's talk about it. This New Mexico bull. Um, I mean, you may not want to talk about it. I kind of do. It's pretty big. I don't know. Give me a little rundown on it. Um, this bull, we named him Carl. Is it after a client or? No. Bad client? Good client? I can't even, who knows? All right. We just come up with Carl. Okay. But, uh, no, this bull, we had been, we've, we've chased for two years. And the first time we ever knew he was in the country was a trail cam pick from, from summer of 16. And, uh, we had him on trail camera and he was going into a nasty little, little steep, rammed out little Canyon to a spring and watering. And, uh, I'm surprised he would even go in this Canyon. Cause it was a really, really small tight Canyon. Like he's vulnerable in there. Very vulnerable. Very. Uh, so, but he went in this Canyon.

We only got a few pics of him and then we never got another picture of him till October 3rd. Wasn't it? Uh, I think so. And we started hunting with, with clients October. I still remember it October 7th. And the last picture we had of that bull was October 5th. And we hunted that bull hard. Josh and I both with guys for five days and absolutely got schooled. We never seen him. Um, the sign was a little agey. Where we were at. I just, it was, we just got our, no, we got our butts handed to us. Um, all the pics we had of him. He was always solo and never with cows, but in the October 5th pictures, we had third to the fifth, he looked a little gant. So he looked a little run down. So we thought, well, he's been writing. So next, the following year we decided, okay, if he's still alive, if no one killed him, we need to hunt that country earlier.

So we decided to go in there this year in September and with our clients and try to kill him. And so this year we started getting pictures. We, we got a picture of him. What was it? Josh, June or July. Yeah. And same spring. It's like same spring. No, it was actually the same tank that we had him on in October. In October. Okay. And he'd been bouncing all over, uh, getting pictures of him, but we had never seen the bull alive. Like with our eyes. Never. No, no glass and knobs or is it just flat and thick? There is, but it's, uh, a lot of that country is flat cedars and you know how that is. It's a nightmare. Yeah. And, uh, not really any good, good places to look into. And, and, uh, but we did, we glassed hard for him. We, we still hunted. We, we did everything we could to try to locate him that year and kill him. And, uh, we just, we got schooled and never seen him.

Is there enough, is there enough other elk? Like you, you clients can kill other bulls or are they going home empty, frustrated? We, uh, no, we, it's tough. That was a, it's like a Tamron Island deer hunt. Yeah. We seen, uh, that week. Uh, five days of hunting. We seen two bulls. So guys that are hunting him know the drill. Like it's, you're either going to hero or zero. I mean, yeah, they know. Yeah. It's all in. That's, that's how we have learned not to have disappointed hunters. It's all about how you sell the hunts. Yeah. If you go tell them something different than what the hunt really is, then you're going to have disappointed people. And, uh, so these guys, uh, they knew the drill, they knew the low density. They were all for it. So, um, but anyway, we never killed him. So this year we went back in September and before the hunt, I located him with cows.

He had, I think he had four cows with him, which in that country's a herd. And, uh, so we knew we had him located and we, we figured all year, you know, okay, the cows are going to bring him out of the woodwork. Cows are going to get him killed. So we need to hunt him during the rut. So that's what we did. And opening day, we come really, really close to getting him. Uh, the hunter's bow, bow string came, popped off the cam when he drew and, uh, made an awful noise and spooky elk. And it was just a nightmare. So are you calling him in? Are you calling him? I mean, no, no. Is he snuck in? Snuck a pin on him. Is he bugling a little or just? He, what was funny is he would rarely bugle, but when he did, it was the most awful sounding raghorn squeal you've ever heard. I mean, he, he, it was pathetic and, uh, and you couldn't really hear him good.

If he was any kind of distance away, you couldn't hear him. He just, just a little squeal to him. But, uh, these low density areas, like hunting a few of them with the elk out and crazy desert stuff. They don't, they don't, they don't, they're not talking to anybody else. There's only four bulls there, three bulls there. You know what I mean? They don't act like normal elk. No. You got to hunt them like deer. Yeah. Yep. And, uh, so that, that was our, you know, plan of attack. And, and so Josh and, and a good friend of ours, uh, Eric Schluckerberg has been hunting with us for years and years. And, uh, they, he's the one that had the, the bow problem. And, uh, so the bull spooked, I tried to, I was gosh, across the canyon from him and I watched it all unfold glass. And, and I tried to keep tabs on him and, but they went up in this nasty thick cedar flat and I lost him.

Well, that evening we kind of thought where they were going to be. So we, we tried to hunt him and never turned them up. And, and what was it, Josh? I think the third day we got on them again. Um, we watched them rim out. They went into that thick spot. And so we moved in there and we sat up there all day that evening. We moved in, I could hear him working cows. And, uh, so I, we threw everything at him, uh, calling wise. And he started to come and, and then he just, he just quit. He came to about 80 yards. We couldn't see him, but we could hear him. And, uh, cause the cedars were so thick. And then he just, he turned around and literally left his cows, turned around and, and left his cows and walk away. And then that was it. And, uh, so we hunted him the rest of the hunt and we turned him what four, four times that hunt. But yeah, never could get close to him.

And, and so, and prior to this, prior to all this, I, you know, we had some extra tags for that area we were hunting. And I, I just asked, cause I don't get to hunt a whole lot. And, uh, and we knew we weren't going to commercially hunt that particular place during the rifle because of our experience the previous year. And, and, you know, I just didn't think it was, you know, a good commercial. Yeah. You got a 3% chance of killing them. Yeah. More unhappy guys, even though they think they can go without seeing elk. It's hard to. Yes. And so I, I told, you know, I asked Josh and Mark, I'm like, do you guys mind if I take one of them extra tags, you know, we're just going to eat them. You know, we're not going to use them, but I mean, I would love to, you know, try to get a chance to hunt and, or they're like, well, yeah, you know.

And so, but the bull, the bull was moving back and forth from, uh, two different ranches. We have them both leased, but so we had two clients on one and then I was hunting the other one. And so we went into it thinking, okay, if he's on this ranch, the clients are going to try to kill him. If he's on where he has been, I'll try to kill him. And so either way, you know, I told Josh said either way I could care. I'm just, if a client kills it, it'll be one of the greatest days ever. Yeah. You know, for the business, great, good for the business. And that's just the type of outfitters we are. And, uh, we're all about the clients. And so the, the day before the rifle hunt started, I located him like two miles into where I was hunting. And, uh, so I thought, well, you know, he's on the place I'm hunting. So here's, you know, here's my chance. I'm going to try to try to get him killed.

But long story short, I located him the next morning and, and was after him all day. Um, couldn't get him in the morning. He beat me to the trees and, and that, that evening, uh, I actually lucked out and got him. Like just went in the trees with him or when he came? No, no, he, it was really muddy and where they had went over the horizon where they actually went. We had never hunted that particular place and we'd never seen the elk there. And so, but they were very trackable cause it was, it had rained a lot. And so I thought, well, I'm going to try to track him down. But I, when I got there, the wind was a little iffy. Plus I was on a roll. I was going over a roll and I thought, well, if they don't smell me, they might see me. So I didn't, I didn't feel real comfortable about it. So I backed out and then I circled around like a mile or more, uh, way to the East.

And I thought, well, I'm going to get the wind right. And I'll just steal hunts kind of work to where I think they're going to, they went in. And then I'll just sit there all day. And, uh, so I did that. And, uh, right before dark, uh, they came out and, uh, I was just in the right place at the right time. And, and, and got to kill him. So it's unbelievable. So what did he end up? Three 98. I cabled him at three 97, seven. Jeez. Unbelievable. Well, he looks for 2430 in the picture. He does. And on hoof, Josh and I were thinking, you know, he's three 80 because we thought, well, he's, he's, he's not really long beamed and, but we didn't see, and we thought he was a little spindly and, but we were wrong. His, we nailed most of him, but his, he has an 18 inch fifth, a little over 18 inch fifth on one side.

And then he's got a kind of a squiggly G six on one side that you can't really, it's kind of hard to score. And he was a little heavier than we thought as well. So he actually ended up bigger than we thought. So it's awesome. So just tell me, look, what's your guys's opinions on these giant bulls? I feel like I like hunting low density areas, Nevada, New Mexico, even some places in Utah, but it feels like, you know, there's giants in low density areas, mostly because people don't hold out because they don't see anything. And when they see one, they find, they kill it or, or, or they don't find elk or game and fish doesn't really know how many are there. And so they manage, uh, for giants, not knowing that maybe on accident, just, I mean, are you guys finding that, you know, or? Yeah, there's, there's not the, of course, genetics has a lot to do with it.

And age has a lot to do with it, but, um, I mean, a lot to do with it, but in this country, it's just not, it's very low density. So therefore you're not getting, it's not getting hunted a lot. You know, there's not a lot of bulls taken out of that country. There's zero cows being killed. Um, and what's weird is the population stays the same. I mean, you would think it would be, it never gets better. No, it just, it's kind of staying the same and, and there's nobody killing cows and it's just different. I mean, it's kind of like the low density deer stuff you hunt Carter. I mean, it's, it's like, it's always been low density and it will always be low density. Yeah. For some freak reason. Cause elk are prolific, you know, it doesn't make sense. Exactly. So I don't know. It's, it's a head scratcher really. Yeah. Well, congrats, man. It's a freaking awesome one.

Well, one of the boys kills one, you know, it, like you said, you don't get to hunt much for yourself and. Oh, it was just a, it'd be a great day. I still go fondling every day. That's awesome. Still, when I'm home, I'm, I'm, I'm handling it. You're helping with gauze and fondling elk. Exactly. Feeding with dogs. Exactly. Cause I never thought in a million years I'd ever have a chance to take something myself. You know, like that. And so it, it was pretty humbling. Well, before, uh, before I forget, I do want to, I love big Mulder. You guys love big Mulder. Um, let's just talk about the Colorado in general and maybe give me a rundown on the plains. Just teach people something about the plains. Like, um, it's obviously got a great reputation and produced in the past. I don't, you know, you don't hear tons about it now, but there are still giants being taken.

I just kind of wanted, you know, your guys' opinion, what you, you know, uh, tell people to do or any advice and, and, uh, how hunting's changed there, good or bad. Just kind of give me a rundown. Well, I think, I think the plains, you can almost compare the plains to Sonora. Back in the heyday, it was incredible. And, but people started taking advantage of it and overshooting deer, you know, looking too many hunters and Sonora is the same, but actually it's the same problem everywhere, Carter. Not just Sonora and not just the plains or wherever. This is a problem all over the West. Um, people are just, they're overbooking it and they're taking too many animals and they're not letting the age class get up. And so that, I think that was a problem in the plains for years. Um, the places, I don't know how it bounces back the way it does, but it, but it just, it can bounce back.

Mule deer is a fragile species, but it seems like out there, I mean, you, I've seen those, that country just get pounded by outfitters and, and local hunters and stuff. And then it seems like the next year a toad shows up. So, I mean, it's famous for that. And, uh, so what we've tried to do is tweak the whole thing and, and we're trying to take half the hunters, everybody else would take. So, so the hunting just gets incredible. And, and we're trying to get the age class out. And it is definitely on the rise. Yeah, it is on the rise. You're seeing the results of, of. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Not selling everything. Yeah. And that's tough as an outfitter because you lease a place, you got to pay for the lease, pay for your guides, pay for everything. And then risk possibly losing the lease to the next guy that comes along because land, a lot of times I'm fine.

I find you got some landowners that are loyal, but you got land, some landowners that aren't and just go with the next, you know, $5 higher bidder and you'll lose that lease. And so all you've done is save deer for the next guy. So it's a tough dynamic. It's, it's a never ending battle to be honest. And certain leases you can, you can do all right on others you'll break even on. And then the next one you'll lose on. So we're having to balance it out throughout the entire operation to make it financially, you know, justifiable to do. And so it's, it is a battle the way we're doing it. And, you know, but that's why when we went into this deal, yeah. And when, when we went into it, we thought, you know, how can we, our biggest deal was we want to be different. We want to do it different than anybody else has. And to do that, we had to cut our numbers.

And so when you cut your numbers, it cuts your money in half. And so now we're just trying to expand here and there to, to make up for cutting that lease in half or managing that more and this and that. And, and. Antelope hunters. Oh, make it up in other places. Yeah. And a lot of, a lot of guys never capitalized on antelope and we're freaks of antelope. We love it. And clients love antelope. And so that's a part of our business that we have taken very, very serious. And, and it's been, it's been something we've really pulled the trigger on the last few years and it's just going great. Our antelope operation is, has really taken off good. Yeah. And antelope are prolific and a mature, they mature earlier than a big old mule deer, you know, doesn't take quite as long. And I think that's awesome. And, you know, it's, it's hard.

I've often said, you know, you can't, I mean, you can't commercialize mule deer and have giants. It just is, it's a hard thing to do. You can't, you almost can't charge, charge the clients enough to take half the clients you should be to grow big deer. Yeah. And, and so. And they're, and you can't overcharge because. Yeah. Because in your sense. Yeah. You can't give them, I mean, it's, it's just a tough, it's a battle. I mean, but we're trying to figure it out. The overall outlook on the planes though. I mean, you guys are obviously, I mean, I see you send me pictures here and there, but obviously on 200 inch deer in and year in and year out, not everybody, obviously, but just some of your top end deer still producing, still got great potential. Yes, absolutely. And are you guys doing the whitetails to any whitetails or. Yeah, we are.

We got some great whitetail leases and we got a couple, couple of bombers on trail cam this year. So we're hoping we can locate those deer here in a week or so. Well, all right. So, I mean, I'm not going to keep you forever, even though I've got a hundred questions, but tell me, just, just a funny story. Just give me something. I know you guys have experienced everything. There's nothing you haven't experienced. And, and, but just give us, give us one of your more fun hunts or something crazy that happened client wise or. Gosh, I don't know. I had a guy, I had an antelope hunter this year. He froze up with me trying to get over a four strand barbed wire fence. It was pretty classic. The guy literally panicked. I couldn't believe it. He's, you know, he's from the city. He's never hunted out west. He just, I mean, straight city.

And this guy freaked out trying to get over this barbed wire fence. And I'm standing there, I'm like, I'm like trying to walk him through, like on the next step on getting over this fence. And he's just, he's cussing. He's wide eyed. He's freaked out. I'm like, no, I've said, don't swing, you know, your right leg. You know, he's straddling it. Oh, he's worried about his giblets. Well, and, and he's, he's trying to get over the fence. He's trying to swing his, his right leg. So he's trying to go over it, like facing. And I said, no, put your right leg, go behind you. Like you're stepping off a bicycle. And he's like, he's just like, I can't do this. I can't do this. I'm like, yes, you can just step over it. And he just, he's, he's just freaked out in the, in the best part. And I, I had to laugh. I couldn't hold back is in the midst of this.

He's just swinging back and forth on this top wire. Well, the damn top wire clip comes off. And I mean, now he is like waving back and forth like crazy. And he hung on. I'll give him that.

It was, it was unbelievable. I just, it was hilarious. It really was funny. Jeez. That's awesome. Well, anything else you guys want to visit about? You wanted to hit up the social media thing.

Yeah. Let's have it. You know, we probably don't want to go that route, but if we have to, we will.

Let's hear it. Go for it.

No, social, social media has changed hunting. Don't you think? There's a lot of things have changed. Big time. I think it has. Big time. For good and bad. Yeah. For pros and cons. It has to do it. For sure. Well, the cool thing is I got to see what you guys are doing. You're not going to text me every little thing. And so, you know, and you guys are seeing what we're doing. And I mean, there's, there's a lot, you know, keeping up on it and stuff. And then of course there's people that are crazy on there. Oh yeah. And it's just getting worse. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the hunting is, it's always been a passion for, for most of us in a livelihood and a lifestyle and whatnot. And it seems like since social media took over, it's become the cool thing. Right. It's like status.

People are, people are more worried about their image than, and what it really means and what, why they're really out there doing it. Well, people are hunting for the, for the selfie now. You know what I mean? Like I went out today and I mean, it's just a lot of that anyway. There's a lot of legit, legit hunters out there doing it. And we all, we all have to do it. You can communicate so much to so many people in one post. You know what I mean? Yeah. Just like your elk or just like the knife stick or all of this kind of stuff. I mean, you know, you're not, you're not thinking of the 200 people that you really care that know you're, you know, and so without social media, some of those people get left in the dark. It's kind of, it is, there's a lot of good to it, but you know, of course there's abuses and we all have to deal with that too. Yeah. So.

And there is a lot of good in it and we, we use it a lot for our business. I mean, it's good for exposure and. Yeah. And everything else. Um, as far as flat, just booking hunters, I mean, it's never really produced a whole lot for us over the years. And, and how I don't know, but yeah. Um, but yeah, there is definitely pros and cons to it. Well, I just, uh, I want to thank you guys for being on with me. I mean, there's just a, we could, I want to do it again. Um, absolutely. We appreciate you having us. Yeah. It's, you guys are amazing. You got a wealth of knowledge and. Likewise. Yeah. Anybody, how to, how can people get ahold of you if they want to go antelope hunting or any, anything. Our website, um, Whitakerbrothershunting.com is probably the best way or. Messing us on Facebook or Instagram. Um, that's probably the, the best, the three best ways to get us. Okay.

Um, and then, you know, the office numbers on the website and whatnot. And, and, uh, cause Josh and I at times are really hard to get ahold of. Um, but our office lady, Amy, she's, she's just golden and, uh, she's great to work with. Clients love her. So that, that's the best way to get us. And in the off season, of course, you guys are willing to visit with people and help them apply and do all kinds of stuff. Yes, absolutely. Okay. Well, I sure appreciate you guys. It's awesome. It's been, I, I just have a ton of respect for what you guys are doing. And I, I love the bluntness. Of course, uh, didn't get into too many crazy details here on the podcast. You guys are very opinionated like I am and, and very aggressive, but that's what makes good hunters and good outfitters. And so I, I have a super appreciation for that. So thank you very much. Thank you, Jason. Very much. Okay. You bet.

And Josh, get better, man. Jason, you'll have to pick up his slack for a little bit, but I'm sure you're used to that, huh? Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

All right, guys. I appreciate you. Take care. Thank you. Have a good one. Thank you much. All right. All right. All right.