EP 194: Applying in Utah and New Mexico

That's about two months earlier than the regular draw the end of May. Drawing odds are generally two to four times better, we say on average. Yeah, they've been super aggressive on the harvest and bringing those number down to think compliance and management objectives. Anything to do with Western big game.

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All right, hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson coming at you from Southern Utah. Just starting to open up a monster. Bronson, we got purple ones open right now. Yes, yes, that's the afternoon series. Morning, nothing but white. Afternoon, purple, gold, pink, whatever. But we're not in a rut. No, we're not in a rut. Anyway. Been a minute, Chris. One of the last couple podcasts we did, you announced your big announcement. Congrats. Sounds like June sometime still. That's awesome. You guys still together? Yeah, for sure. You still happy with her? Yeah. She's ecstatic with you? I think so. Couldn't be better? I'm doing as good as I can. Yeah, for sure. You guys are a match made in heaven. Everything will be great. Do you know when you're going to actually seal the deal? Looking like it's about the second week of June. Yeah. Remember? You never pinned down. No official announcement.

Ever. Ever. Yeah. Sometimes. No, there will be an official announcement. Okay. I didn't know if that had to be. We just want to tell the podcast listeners in case they want to show up. Do a drive-by. You know? Yeah. COVID wedding drive-by. They can probably do a drive-by. This might be post-COVID. Might be one of the first post-COVID weddings. It might be. You never know. And here in Southern Utah, I mean, there's a lot of non-mask wearers. I mean, it could be open to the general public. You never know. It probably will be. Might have these Texans that are freezing coming to Southern Utah. Are you going to perform at your own wedding afterwards, like a concert afterwards? You are? No shit. We're going to have a big old shindig, yeah. Come on. What can we bring? What kind of food? Not going to be a normal reception. Not going to do a stand-in-line thing. Hug and do all that.

We're going to do a concert, have a bunch of music. And then just talk and yak. Are you going to pay other singers to come so you can be out in the audience? And then you'll be on stage too? Any idea who that's going to be? You probably don't even have to pay. I'm not sure about the details yet. Mackenzie's probably in charge of that. I know she's got at least one signed on, one other band signed on. I mean, if anybody can get the job done, it'll be her. So, yeah, when it's ready, we're going to announce that. This might be a festival of epic proportions. Yeah. With a wedding on the side.

Well, anyway, it's pretty awesome. Gives us something to look forward to, Chris. Yeah, it'll be fun. We're old enough now we get to live through other kids.

Anyway, that's kind of cool. Well, we've been getting a little bit of storm here and there. We haven't been getting hammered. Bronson's all wound up because we don't have six inches at our house. But we live in the valley. I've been grateful for everything we've been getting. Me, for one. Okay, which isn't much. You know what's bad? When I drive to the office and there's literally a sixteenth of an inch of snow covering my truck and Jason gets there and he's all excited. Where have you been in the snow? I says, my house. No, well, you live a little higher than I do. Well, what, 40 feet? Yeah, about 40 feet. I mean, that's how bad we are. It's less than a quarter of an inch coated onto my truck. And Jason's eyes light up as if there's Chia Pet coming on. Chia Pet's coming on. No. And I look at the radar and it's telling me to be happy. Well.

Because there's lots of snow and flurries and rain in southern Nevada, southern Utah, northern Arizona. Arizona's a hole. New Mexico's a hole. You're a hole stopping around. San Juan's not bad. Even western Colorado been having pretty good. But it feels like right here where we are in western, southwestern corner, we've been getting stuff underneath and over the top and we're missed. Right. But we don't like to hunt here anyway. Well, meaning we love three points of three points, Adam. Yeah. It looks like a storm every single day, but we never get anything. Yeah. I know. But anyway. Whatever. It's all good. What are we going to talk about today? I guess let's talk about calendar. Usually we kind of talk about imminent deadlines. You know, deadlines. What's on the calendar? What's coming up? Well, what is coming up is A, the Nevada Guide Draw, B, Utah, C, New Mexico.

I mean, there's some things coming on the calendar. Those are probably things we talk about. So. A little excitement in the air. Every time we get a, you know what I mean, the Arizona deadline for elk and antelope came and went, we are done fielding those calls for a minute. Kind of. Until the draw results come out. Yeah. But yeah. We do have the Nevada Guide Draw alert. We want to tell everybody if you are a rifle hunter and you're going to go guided, you might as well jump in on the guide draw. You can only apply once, you know, per year for deer. So if you do the guide draw, you'll get a point. You'll use your points if you were to be successful in the draw. But anyway, that deadline is March 8th. So you can apply right now. Basically, it was February 8th, March 8th, 2021. You would go into the guide draw with an outfitter. We have great outfitters that we work with. We can line you.

We can even help get you applied or whatever you need. And you'll go in there. You've got five choices on the application. All five are valid. All five of which, if drawn, will take your points. And it's only for, again, rifle, mule deer. And then the main draw will be after that. So one big benefit I think people maybe forget about until you explain it to them. And then it kind of maybe puts them over the edge is when you apply with somebody in the guide draw, you'll find out by the end of March with your draw. That's about two months earlier than the regular draw the end of May. Why is that important? Well, one, your schedule. You can plan around it in a lot of the other states. If you do end up drawing a tag, you know sooner and you can plan around it. But the other thing is you book with your outfitter earlier. And there's been on occasion. Choice of dates. Yeah.

Better choice of dates perhaps. Or sometimes when you get to be the end of May, certain outfitters, because of some landowner tags and the guide draw, maybe they're close to being full. Or the main, yeah. That's right. And they can't book too many in certain units. In the main draw. In the main draw. So you get a book earlier. So there's some definite benefits. If there's a highly probable chance you're going to hire somebody anyway, you should do it. So give us a call if you're interested. Devin, any of us guys here really can help you get set up. Steer you to what portion of the state that probably meets your goals. If you only want the very, very best, then that might put you down in southeastern Nevada. But if you don't, there's a lot of units in Nevada, Jason, that have good odds in the guide draw. If you just want to hunt $160 to $175, lots of good odds units. There are.

There are lots of them. And we work with a lot of different outfitters. So anyway, it's awesome. The drawing odds are generally two to four times better, we say, on average. We just throw it out there as an average. We've crunched the numbers 14 different ways. And it's the truth. They're better. As long as you're dealing with the rifle hunts. The downside is you're going to have possibly some unsuccessful draw results early. I like to, I don't know, put those unsuccessfuls down the road a little bit. But hey, like you said, at least you know. It's just a bummer. I'm still batting 1,000. Okay. All right. It's just guys are like, I was unsuccessful. And you're like, oh, well, I still have hope for me because I haven't applied yet. Yeah, but your odds are five times worse. Slightly odd. I know. But it's still, it's just a mental thing. But anyway, we're big fans of Nevada.

If there's anything we can do to help you, let us know. So as we keep cranking forward, and we're just going to skip through these quickly, you know, we have all of this information online. If you're a member, you can log in with your credentials there at epicoutdoors.com. Check out the e-mag versions. Get a lot of information that way. You can call us, things like that. This podcast is free. You get free info. And so we're going to just cover it briefly. But as far as the in-depth information, that's what you get for being a member here at Epic Outdoors, which is $100 a year. All right, Bronson, start us off. Utah 2021. Yep, the deadline to apply in Utah is March 4th. If you're not interested in applying for the hunts this year, just want to gain points, you have an extra two weeks on that. March 18th is the deadline for points only. Results will be out the end of May.

Utah had some increases for non-residents in their license fees. Instead of $65, that went up to $72 for adults. Deal breaker. Not too bad, but they also went up $5 on every species. But it's kind of interesting. We added it up for some of these guys. You do nine or ten species or counting general deer and all of them. We used to get away with talking about a bingey. Now it's a bingey and a quarter, a bingey and a half, somewhere in there. Yeah, it's bumped up a little bit. And I guess a couple Hamiltons in a bingey. You're asking me to go back. All right, keep going. Remember presidents. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. The only one I remember is Trump. No, Trump. Lincoln? All right, keep going. What's a Lincoln by you? I don't know. I don't know. Okay. Well, anyway, so Utah's, the fees went up a little bit for non-residents. That started last summer.

The permit fees also went up a little bit if you're successful. But most people, if you're successful, draw on a Utah tag, you're fine paying them. Utah, as a general rule, have really great quality huts. Quality deer, quality elk. That's why they're very tough to draw. We don't have enough limited entry deer units, frankly, to spread out all the limited entry deer hunters. So the odds are bad for deer and elk in Utah. They flat out are bad. They're bad for sheep, deer, elk, bison, moose, goat, everything. And that's right. They're very, very tough. What do you think? Do you think Trump will ever be on a dollar bill of some sort? I think he deserves it. Huh?

Jangling around in everybody's pockets, the Dems included. How cool would that be? All right. Well, let's keep going. I don't know. Just a little reminder. Okay. I'm going to bet. Trump reminder. That's what I will put. I will bet a Lincoln. No. I'll bet you a Lincoln. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. It's not going to happen. I'm just going out on a limb. All right. Well, anyway, you're right. They're super tough to draw. You know, the one thing about it, residents have to choose species. We can do deer, elk, or antelope, and then we can choose one of the ones in lifetimes. And so we get basically two species in a general for deer. You know, the non-residents, they get to do everything. Spoiled. They do. It makes you feel good, but everybody's doing that, right? Everybody's growing points in all the... Yep. There's a lot of people with antelope points, though.

There never used to be a bunch of people with antelope points because nobody would pick that when you had to choose between deer and elk. The residents, you're not finding a lot of people with antelope points. They draw within five years. Yeah. We can go to our neighbor state, you know? Wyoming. But... Kill them where they make them. A lot of public land in Utah. Very few units on our limited entry stuff. Do you have to worry about private land being a big detriment? We have great outfitters in all units, so if that's... If you're going to hire an outfitter, full speed ahead. But if you're a self-guided guy, a lot of great opportunities. It's probably worth mentioning, the only tags you can really plan on drawing in... Unless you've been vested for 15, 20-plus years are the general season deer tags. It's kind of a unique system.

Utah, whenever they went to a unit-by-unit deer approach and quit selling general season tags over the counter. They never merged the limited entry and general season deer points into one point system. Like Colorado, they got one, right? They don't do that. So they allow you to build points for both, but they draw the limited entry deer tags first. And if you're unsuccessful, the very last draw is the general season deer. These are opportunity hunts. Having said that, we hunt general deer almost every year ourselves. Some years, Jason, I guess, with varying degrees of commitment based on our own schedules, and I don't want to seem... Very low commitment. I don't want to seem unappreciative. Well, we are unappreciative. At times. At times. Because it's just like anybody in the backyard. We get it. Just the way it is. You just don't appreciate what you got in your backyard.

But having said that, we do get general tags here in Utah just to have them in your back pocket. And it has resulted in several 200-inch deer. I mean, there's legit opportunities, right? It is. We've got friends that will take these general tags over, say, even a Henry's, especially because, A, it's their backyard. B, they're following deer year to year to year, and they know it so well. That's right. But just the only reason I really emphasize that is a lot of people say, when am I going to draw Utah? When am I going to draw Utah? The answer is you might not ever draw some of these tags. But the general season is something, if you can ever work it in and view that for what it is, an opportunity, fun hunt, with maybe a chance to get lucky and kill an older deer, that's what they're there for. So keep that in mind. And that's Utah in a nutshell.

Tough drawing odds, but great quality for sheep, moose, goat, bison. Lots of once-a-lifetime opportunities. And deer and elk are obviously very well-known. Average to decent antelope. But how would you? Yeah, I like it. You know what I think? And we are. There's so many opportunities in Utah, and we are blowing through it. You know, they've given all kinds. I like to call them SKUs. I don't know. Why do we call them SKUs? I guess we've had. It's like hanging on a shelf. Well, there's all these different new products coming out from the different optics manufacturers. And so, anyway, new SKUs are excitement. Well, there's a lot of new SKUs. You've got bison. All these different options for bison. Changes all the time. How about hams for elk this year? Okay. There's a SKU. That's a SKU. And it spreads everybody out. Now you've got applicants and all these different things.

And, you know, Utah is unique. Your first choice is the only thing that matters. And so, when you go in for a particular SKU, you're not going in for the rest of the SKUs. And so, it helps drawing odds when you have lots of SKUs to choose from. And I think, you know, we've been talking about it, Bronson. And, you know, it wasn't very long ago when we were kids, we had like three or four sheep hunts to choose from. And one, you know, bison hunt or at least one bison unit with a couple of choices. Like, there is not – it wasn't that long ago. No. And things are way different now. There's a lot. You look at bison and goats, incredible. And even the sheep. I mean, moose are kind of – I don't know. They went down for a while. They're maybe coming back a little bit now. Well, haven't changed collectively over time. But goats, off the charts. Bison spread out.

Henry's, book cliffs, bursting, right? Hunter's choice. Cow. Rockies. Everything. Deserts. I mean, there's a lot more options. And then, like you said, you alluded to it in the elk. The deer, the only real thing in the limited entry deer world that's probably changed a lot is they are drawing what they call the late season muzzleloader hunt, which is, you know, November 3rd, I believe, to the 11th this year. Yeah, November 3rd to the 11th, and it's available in all of our general areas. And so now that's a limited entry hunt in a general unit that normally on the regular general seasons is a general season preference point. A whole different draw. Yep. But to hunt a little bit later and flirt with the rut, November 3rd to the 11th, that's a limited entry hunt you can put in for them. Now, most of them for non-residents have one to two tags. Almost nothing. Almost nothing.

But they haven't really caught on super yet, but well yet. But, I mean, they're a good opportunity. They're a notch above the generals, no question. Well, and this year with those late season dates going until November 11th, we'll never see it later. And that could catch some snow and different things, rut. And mark my words, there's going to be some big deer killed on these. Although we could never tout it as being a super high quality opportunity. Keep in mind that general season rifle hunts end on October 31st. So you've got, what, three days? Is it? It's not, I mean, you've got three days in this muzzleloader hunt starting after general season rifle hunters just got done. But it does extend until November 11th. But I think you and I have killed some big stuff over the years, and season dates have meant everything. Well, season dates and pressure. One, two, three, five days a week.

Pressure. You're dealing with, most of these are five, ten, maybe 20 total tags. Hardly anybody. The pressure is gone, and what happens? You see it in Colorado between the second and the third. Pressure relaxes. Feel it. By the third season, they're standing around ready to take a bullet. It feels like in 24 hours, their life has changed. They're just calmer. They come out of the woodwork, and then they start to rut, and they're really going to be rutting on this season. And I don't know why we're spending so much time on this particular. Other than it's something new. Well, and I think there's some hidden, God, I hate the word gem, like hidden gems. But anyway, there's opportunity there for somebody that wants to take a little bit of a chance. Okay. Nuggets. Nuggets. But anyway, for somebody that wants to take a chance, it has six, seven, eight, ten points, whatever.

What have you got to lose? And we throw around ten points like it's nothing. Honestly, it is kind of nothing. In Utah, it's nothing. It's like 50 grand the other night on the expo tags. Yeah. 50 grand. Everything was 50 and up. It felt like. Tell me. Tell me I'm wrong. It was crazy. Crazy on the prices of tags. And that's the way we're talking about points. I mean, 10, 15, 20 points is pretty much a regular occurrence. It doesn't mean what it does in a Nevada or a Colorado. It does not get you. I think we talked about the general, and I want to reiterate, this is how you justify the $72 hunting license and the $15 app fees or whatever. It just makes it to where, yeah, it does cost you that. Yes, you can get a twofer and you can make that $72 license go work for two application periods, whatever. But also, this can justify it.

You could find a private land hunt or a guided hunt or whatever and come in and hunt 170-inch type deer, maybe 180s, 160 to 180, let's call it. And, quote, make it worth it. Get a good value out of spending your $72 license fee. Yeah, because, frankly, there's other states like Nevada that you're not getting anything out of. Arizona, your license fee at least, if you want to go hunt the over-the-counter archery, get something out of that. Some states people make it maybe makes you apply for a state because you get something out of it every two, three, five years in Utah if you want to do the general. Just keep it in mind. Once in a while, I think, you know, like Idaho, for example, people try to, I want to make good use of that hunting license. And I kind of, that little phrase of throwing good money after bad comes in mind.

Like, okay, you want to make good on it, so you go on an over-the-counter hunt, and now you've got a grand in groceries, gas, wear and tear, time off work, whatever, just to make sure I make good on this 150, 170, whatever hunting license. So, I don't know. You can't. I don't know what that is. You can spend 150, and then to justify it, you spend another grand is what you're saying. Just to make sure I get dang good use of my hunting license. I don't know. The hunting license anymore across the West, that's just the price of doing business. You're going to spend it. The states are going to keep it, and that's just the price of applying. So, you non-residents, you get a point for everything. Us residents, we get two points, one for deer, elk, or antelope, and then one for one of the once-in-lifetimes, and then general, the general deer.

So, anyway, that's their way of keeping people's drawing on good. There was some gnashing of teeth when they went to that change a little bit, and it just kind of appeased the residents so we wouldn't have us all competing with us all. Yeah. Non-residents, I think they did it. They were afraid that you weren't going to pay for the license if you could only get two points. They give you eight or ten points, kept you doing the license. Makes you feel good to be stacking up points, but everybody's stacking up points. Yeah. So, anyway. And you should be, too. All right. Moving on. Let's talk about New Mexico. New Mexico's such a great state in many respects.

That didn't sound compelling. Well, I was just wondering, like, okay. Well, I love New Mexico. You love New Mexico. We've all killed big stuff in New Mexico. But, you know, they're being kind of run by the other political party. And right now, there's just things changing. Trapping's on the cut list. I mean, there's some things that are changing. Oh, yeah. Even since we went to print with this magazine, what has it been, maybe a month ago? Yeah. Maybe not quite. But, wow, there's a lot that could potentially change. And, obviously, we'll maybe mention it now. I think we did it on an earlier podcast. Jump into it. Stuff could change. You know, the potential guide draw, regular draw split right now. Non-residents, I guess, in essence, are getting up to 16% of the tag. 6%. Even though residents can apply in the guide draw, too. But, yeah. Essentially, yeah.

10% set aside for guided clients, the majority of which are non-residents. And then 6% in the unguided pool. They're looking to do away and just combine it to a 10% draw pool. And that sounds good in some regards. If you're a resident, sounds good. Maybe not fair. If you're a non-resident that doesn't go in the guide draw, you think, yeah, that's only fair. Well, now you've got to realize you've got all 16. All the applicants are in one pool. So, it's going to really get hard to draw tax. Well, and change is hard to swallow. That's just plain and simple. You've got a guiding industry that's made a living off of working with their clients and conditioning their clients that we apply in the guide draw. And that gives you better odds. And that's just for people like us that, you know, are going to go guided in my particular area or whatever. And, anyway, change is hard.

And we'll see if that shakes – how that shakes out. It's not looking super great for the outfitters. But, having said that, you know, we're still fans of New Mexico. What we like is being able to go in some of these units. You can find a hidden gem, our favorite word, a hidden gem, in about anywhere at Bronson. Like, we've both killed 380 bulls in New Mexico in weird units and public land. And some of which are self-guided. Some are guided. Guide pull or whatever. We've participated in all that. Well, and there's no point system in New Mexico. So, we really – I view, and I think you do as well, we view New Mexico sometimes differently every single year when we go into it. If we feel like we've got a tag somewhere that's going to take precedent over anything we could apply for in the elk world in New Mexico that year, we swing for the fence. We only go for the best.

You know, you've alluded to that. You've done that some years. And you apply not even thinking you're going to draw. And then, boom, you drew something. Just – you've got three valid choices in the draw. They'd look at your first, second, and third choice. All are valid before they go to the next applicant, so to speak. So, it makes sense to put a pipe dream one down, you know, as your first choice or so. And if you get lucky, great. But we like it from that perspective and that everybody has a chance. I will get more aggressive in the years that I think the moisture is really, really good, especially for elk. Let's face it. From an elk and a deer standpoint, it crushes the state from an elk standpoint. You know, the deer has a very few units that are really known and proven for great deer.

But elk, when it's a good year, it seems like all over the place, you can pull a big bull from a lot of different places. A lot of different places. I agree 100%. So, yeah, it's definitely a state that we're looking at. We're glad to see this moisture hitting it. Recently, we went into this winter super dry. And it appears things are changing up a little bit. We hope that continues. So, anyway, you've got to apply. There's no point system. Everybody's on the same playing field every year. So, we have a lot of clients that just want points some years. And they'll just opt out of for New Mexico. Like, well, and that's what you should do. Anybody that doesn't really want to go there, don't apply. Save the money. So, anyway, $65 hunting license to apply, non-refundable. And then you've got to front the tag fees.

So, you know, before Bronson, when you applied, you didn't have to front the tag fees. Nor did you even have to buy it once drawn. Yeah. Kind of crazy. Yeah, it was weird. Well, I drew deer tags, what was that, 10 to 15 years ago. Yeah. And stuff tight. Well, I remember my wife and I were going to have a baby. And it was not going to be good for me to leave right then. Yeah. And I didn't go validate the tag. And I just, all you're always out with a minimal application fee. And they tightened that up. Well, yeah, they lost revenue. And I have taken some significant tags and didn't use them. And I've made some bad choices along my little hunting career. And that can be a byproduct of New Mexico not having a point system. You never feel like you're protecting points. No. Like, oh, I've got to get something out of them.

No, you feel like I've got a freebie and either I can use it or I can throw good money after bad, go there, get a divorce, and half my assets. You know what I mean? You just, right? Right? So there's no making good on all these points and really putting value on it. Having said that, there's a lot of game down there that don't have names. So, you know, you've got 380 bulls that haven't been seen by 14 people. You know, Shed's picked up since he was, you know, a year and a half or whatever. And so there's a lot of surprises. And it's fun, man. I've got to tell you, like, it's been a blast. You've killed a barberry sheep down there. They've had, I mean, we've applied for Oryx and Ibex, never have. We've threatened you and I to do a dual application this year for Oryx. I don't know if we're going to come through on that. Oh, we're doing it. We've never really had the major itch to do that.

I don't know why. They're kind of cool animals, but everybody says they're incredible eating, but we just haven't had the bug. The French love horses, and I hear it's horse meat. That's what I hear. And they say it's amazing. Huh? I'm telling you, I ate Oryx when I was a kid. Did you? Oh, yeah. My dad killed one. It was like lion. I ate a lion. It was freaking amazing. Yeah, it was. Kind of like that stag we've been eating. That thing's gross, by the way. But anyway, kind of a fun. We really do like New Mexico. We've got a lot of friends. Even within the game and fish, they're super helpful and like working with them. We apply for sheep, elk, deer. Antelope, it's pretty tough. They did change some things up, split up some units, which split up the tag numbers and less tag numbers. Basically, with the guide draw, it kind of made it to where,

if there's less than 13 total tags, there wasn't a non-resident. You had to apply in the guide draw. Yeah. It's a little bit like Arizona in terms of planning on drawing a antelope tag down there. I mean, it's tough. The odds are bad. But I've had a lot. There's some youth hunts down there for deer and elk and different things, even sheep. But, you know, that's all listed in the publication and online as well for members. But anyway, my kids, I've had. We've taken our boys down there. Two. Both your boys and my boys killed my boy's first buck. Colton, I know, killed his first buck. Yeah. I don't know about Sean. Colton was nine years old. It's any age, as long as you have Hunter Ed. And Sean, he killed his first archery buck in Unit 2B. Yeah. I mean, it's been good to us. And they have some really unique set-aside tags, not just reduced price, which they really don't have reduced price.

Like set-aside seasons. But they set them aside for seasons for elk that are earlier than the regular adults, earlier into October where you're flirting with the tail end of the rut still, as well as some late season around Thanksgiving, rifle youth deer hunts. It's kind of wrong, really. Like the kids are spoiled. If John was in the room, he would have the mic right now. Well, no, he wouldn't because we'd take it from him. But he has a – John goes against the grain on everything we talk about. Well, no, we've talked about this stuff. Just a little moral problem with the kid jumping in the head of a line. Okay. When it comes to hunting big game that he wants, that John wants. I know. I love John's perspective, although it does give me a little riled up. But having said that, like, for example, Unit 2B has a youth rifle hunt. I mean, we're talking with dates November 20th to the 28th,

and they killed some freaking slugs this last year. And it – you know, you've got adults that are watching kids have cream of the crop. And I – you know, it's just hard to stomach. That's all. You've got kids hunting the best – Well, basically the rut. One of the best units in the state in the rut. Not just, hey, here's some – like, because there's a lot of other youth seasons throughout New Mexico and a lot of other units. But when it happens in one of their premier units, it's just – you notice. There's a – And why give them the best of the best? Like, honestly, honestly. It gives them a false view of what hunting is. Oh, Dad, he says – I don't want that four point. For the rest of their life. He doesn't have eye guards. That other buck we saw, saw cheaters out each side. Dad, I want him. I don't want that. He's a slick four with no eye guards.

These kids, we're making them into trophies. And the dads are way excited as well when their kid draws. Like, anyway, pretty impressive. It's fun to tease about it a little bit. We're all about youth opportunity. Don't want to – Don't take it the wrong way. John, we just – Just don't give them the best of the best. That's all. Anyway, whatever. Anyway, so there you have it. And then, of course, Barbary Sheep, there's things to apply for. Pretty awesome. There's plenty of opportunity down there. And then they've just got some over-the-counter stuff, too, if you found a ranch or whatever. Or if you want to go, just give us a call. We can definitely hook you up. And then you've got Ibex and Oryx, and we cover that as well. Pretty tough on especially those – or the Ibex. Rugged, nasty terrain. And the qualities come down.

Yeah, they've been super aggressive on the harvest and bringing those numbers down with in compliance and management objectives. And it's the age of the old, old billies. There's not – they're not there right now. But they're cool animals. Don't get us wrong. I hear the snakes are plenty old down there. Big. If you hunt October and that archery hunt and your belly crawling through rocks and stuff, be ready. Yeah, you're going to see a Mojave green. I don't know what they have down there. Nasty. Gnarly. New Mexico black. I don't know what they call them down there. They just look like they'd hurt somebody. But anyway, and I don't like surprises. I just don't like surprises. But anyway, pretty fun. Pretty good opportunities down there in New Mexico. Again, no point system. Apply only if you want to tag as we're wrapping up that state. Definitely huge fans in New Mexico.

We've got, like I say, they're supportive of us. We're supportive of them in large part because they've given us good tags over the years. And there's always some little hidden gems for everybody that applies. Every once in a while stuff just comes out of nowhere. Absolutely. Chris, you've even partaken in a couple of those elk hunts. I mean, just kill some good bulls. And every year is just a new year. No points needed. And getting lucky is all that matters. Smash and grab comes to mind when Chris goes to New Mexico. Huh? Huh? Huh? Did you draw back to back? I did. It's probably my favorite elk state just because most of the other states, like how often can you actually go? Oh, I know. Well, you guys have each drawn, you've drawn about three good ones. I don't know. I've had some landowner tags, dude. But I've drawn one, but incredible one. Great one. I mean, an early rifle first choice.

It's like, that doesn't happen, but it did. So, anyway, pretty cool. So, one real quick shout out to one of our sponsors. Want to do that to MOA Rifles. Great, great rifle builders. Bob Beck and his crew there. Got a 6.5 PRC. Topped with a Zeiss V6. Love it. Check them out online at MOARifles.com. Or if you want to have a private consult, you're thinking of putting something together for a specific hunt you got coming up, give them a call at 541-526-1820. They also make a variety of other shooting products, bipod shooting rests, things like that. But MOARifles.com. If you want to get in on one of those shooting courses, they're booking right now. They just opened up in summer. So, if you want to get in, you probably better call sooner than later because they fill up fast. Do you have to wear a mask and social distance? No, it's outside. Outside. Oh, yeah, that's right. But it is.

Yeah, it is. It is Oregon, so I don't know. Private ranches. I don't know. Out in the middle of nowhere. It's a pretty awesome experience, really. Yeah, definitely. You're going to learn a lot. Definitely not a COVID-rich environment. And the number, again, to call them on that is 541-526-1820. Okay, right on. Get in on a course. Get in on a rifle. Anyway, you know, another shout-out here. We want to throw a little shout-out to Pyro Putty. You know, saved your brother's life, by the way. Yeah, I think we talked to him on that on the podcast. Yeah, pretty. Along with their arcing lighter. Yeah. A little electronic lighter. A little electronic lighter. Versus a little flint, you know, normal cigarette lighter that when you get rolled down a river for three minutes, they don't lie. Pyro Putty. You can go check them out at pyroputty.com.

Super good people behind the product and incredible product as well. It's lightweight. They've got the summer blend and winter blend. And I've got it. I've got it in every door panel, Bronson. You know me. Got the Epic Knife, Pyro Putty, and a bottle of Advil. And Tums. And Tums. That's right. I was raised on Advil and Tums. Old Tavits diehard. Yeah, but anyway. So, awesome people. Pyroputty.com. You'll need to get you some. They make great little gifts. Christmas gifts. Of course, that's a ways down the road. Birthday gifts or Father's Day gifts or Mother's Day gifts or Valentine's Day. St. Patrick's Day is coming up. They probably have a green blend. In fact, they think they'd have a green blend. Past President's Day. We were going to celebrate Trump again. And anyway, we just. Blew by that way too fast. Yeah, just kind of didn't. It wasn't much of a holiday for us.

But anyway, pretty awesome products. And next up, Bronson. Want to give one more shout out to another one of our partners here and another brand of optics that we cover. And that's the guys at Vortex. One of our last podcasts. You can dial back one episode, I believe. And listen to the podcast that we did with them about some of the new products coming out this next year. But VortexOptics.com. V-O-R-T-E-X-O-P-T-I-C-S.com. Great products. Great price point. Got some really new, cool optics going to be released soon. That should be in our hands soon. We'll probably do a big podcast announcement when we get it in our hands so that, you know, we've got a few new things we're going to carry that we've never had from them too in terms of glassing. What? How about some of their tripods? Oh, yeah. We talked about them a little bit. That's right.

So we'll do a big announcement when we get them in our hands so that if you want some, you're looking to upgrade, give us a call and we'll be getting right out to you. We're all about the SKUs, man. All about the SKUs. We sell this stuff. Give us a holler. We'll make you the best deal ever. So anyway, pretty awesome. You know what I was thinking when I'm looking at these monsters? Remember? It doesn't go really well. I can't sing it very good. Chris, maybe you can help us out. What? We built this business on Monster.

Say it. Can you make it go, Chris? Give it a try. Just give it a try. I'm not going to try that. Chris, give it a try. You know what happened. I don't remember that. We built this place on. Is that REO Speedbagging? Who was that? I don't know. I don't remember. Chris will play it. There's people laughing at me now. I know if it's not them, you're laughing and say, yeah, that's such and such. But that came into my mind. I don't know who it was. But anyway, Chris figured out what before. We built this. Starship. Starship? Starship. Why was I thinking REO Speedwagon? I have no idea. They're kind of that same sound flair. The shout out of all shout outs. Well, yeah. We got another exciting hunt giveaway. We're going to be giving away some exciting hunts here in a couple of weeks. We're getting down to the last, what is it? About 10 days of our winter 2021 epic hunt giveaway. Membership drive.

We've got a Yukon stone sheep for this fall 2021. Alaska doll sheep for this year 2021. Nevada mule deer. Nevada mule deer. Guided hunt. So, you know, that's one of the wars that are shooting. In 231 with Greg Crowe, New Mexico Acoma Reservation Hunt, Choose Your Weapon, Archery Rifle or Muzzleloader 2021 finishes off. As well as a lion hunt with Pine Valley Outfitters, winner of 2021, 2022. Super good guy. We dealt with him a lot, and it's incredible. We also have the Texas Barbary Sheep Hunt with High West Outfitters. We booked for him a Wyatt Kill, a freaking giant, 35 1⁄2 incher with him. He's got properties that are incredible. He sent us pictures, Bronson, just recently of just a ton of rams. Loads of rams. Like 50. I don't know. Anyway, and we've also got a wolf hunt. Idaho Wolf 2021-2022 with Hard X Outfitters. We've had him on the podcast.

He's legit, basically touting 100% opportunity. Now, I don't know what it is about wolves. They do something to you. They're kind of like coyotes. They're hard to freaking kill. They're just tough. You've got to have everything right, and you've got to have your crap together. People lose their faculties. They do. When they get them in a scope and stuff gets short-actioned. Hearing them. They're seeing them. Short-action bullet shells fall on the floor of the magazines. That's right. Stuff's coming out. That's right. Anything you've heard or anything that's happened to you, that usually happens on a wolf because it's a rarity actually get one in your scope. But anyway, when it happens, it's kind of like you know it's all going to come down to something real fast. It's an incredible trophy. I hate them, but I love them. I've killed a couple, Bronson. You've killed a freaking alpha male.

Monster of all monsters. What an incredible trophy. I mean, it's hard to even see them, let alone kill them. You can enter to win by either mail, phone, or online at epicoutdoors.com. You know, you can join your buddy. If you sponsor your buddy, you get a free ticket in for any of these hunts, two or three friends, family, whatever. Of course, you can buy your way in as well. As far as one ticket's $25, $100, $200, and $500 packages. And we're giving away $13,000 in the most amazing optics ever built by humans. It's incredible. That's right. Got until February 28th. So if it gets down to the wire by the time you listen to this, you're probably, you can jump online. Like I said, epicoutdoors.com or give us a call, 435-263-0777. If you've been listening to the podcast for months, weeks, months, years, whatever, and have never joined for a reason, maybe this is that reason.

Get your name in the hat for one of those hunts and still get, you know, the February magazine out there and continue on through the rest of the state applications this year with all the state magazines. You're not going to miss a whole lot. So, yeah, it's coming up to a close here in about 10 days. I don't know. Was this a boring podcast, Bronson? We went high level, I guess. You mean 30,000 feet a little bit. But we go fast, and I think we've reiterated why. I mean, if we went line by line, unit by unit, hunt code by hunt code, and drawing on by drawing on, people would tap out. That would be, you know. Did we even freaking cover Oregon? No, because it's not due until May. We'll do that later. Even though it was in this magazine. That's right. Okay, so just to let you all know, we also covered Oregon. Yeah. That's not due until May 15th, so it's all as well. Don't sweat it.

Haven't forgot you. Just we got a little bit of time. We love Oregon. We love our partners in Oregon. They know it. And anyway, you can check it out in the magazine as well. But, yeah, it's not due at the moment, but we will crush it. About the time we start thinking about it. That's right. We've killed some stuff in Oregon. Yeah. Been there on a lot of different hunts. Each had sheep. Yeah. Deer, elk, whatever. Yeah. You know, some not-so-great hunts, too. I've had that Applegate muzzle. That didn't go on that one. How that tag tastes. And then I went on an over-the-counter rifle in the Applegate. Anyway, tell you all about it someday. You know what some guys are asking for? You know when somebody's a diehard mule deer hunter, when they want to hunt the subspecies of mule deer, the black tail, so much they go back, after eating their tag once, they go right back to try to do it again.

You know you've got a diehard mule deer hunter, Jason Carter. And I do the research on it, and everything tells me I was stupid. That I should have taken advantage of that tag. It's the world's best tag for legit- You mean the muzzleloader. Yeah. Yeah. The most legit opportunity of real, pure blood black tails. Okay. And we're not black tail fanatics, so I know I might offend somebody by saying this, but had you- They're not big mule deer. Is that what you're going to say? Had you put your heart and soul into that, and you overachieved, what would you have on your- What would you be looking at every day at your house right now? A significant black tail. One 25? One 30? Significant black tail. What's that? I don't know. What is it? But I'm telling you, you are offending people right now. I know. I probably am. Because they are as passionate. I know.

Have you ever seen more passionate people, the coos deer fanatics, the black tail fanatics? I know. I know. They are fanatics. Fanatics. They also, they get up there, they hybridize over certain places. And so, I mean, I'm not saying an apple. It's hard for us to get excited about it. Because they look like mule deer, not a pure blood black tail. They do look distinctly different. They got the body of a mule deer and the antlers of a great big coos. I don't know. I don't know. But having said that. So, I'm just trying to make you feel better about blowing your 10 points. Just because we weren't raised there. Wherever you're raised is what your values are. That's right. You know. We were raised in the heart of big mule deer country. And that's where our values are. Yeah. Having said that, we like to kill about everything. Anything that walks, we're killing it. If it's big, we like it.

We've talked about that before. Two points and spikes. I do get excited. Antelope, mountain goats, whatever. Dude, I was getting excited. So, crushing the data for Colorado. And we don't want to talk about Colorado. We weren't even supposed to say the word Colorado. But Colorado moose, I'm freaking kind of halfway excited about some of the opportunities over there, Bronson. I've just done it. I've got some questions for you. It may be in a few weeks when we talk about the Colorado overview. Just don't embarrass me online. Plus. Okay. I won't. But I'd like to know if you're still excited two weeks from now, even though today you are. I don't know. I mean, it's just like you. You do some research on some. You did a lot of moose data. And you added back in my moose unit in Idaho. I read you the hardest numbers of like 11 dead moose. And about. By force.

I didn't want to hear about six of them. Oh, yeah. We're over 45. Yeah. And then when you hit 58, I was like, huh? 53. Yeah. Whatever. I mean, where does 58 come from? Did you just throw that? 53 and something. Maybe 53 and some eights. I don't know. Oh, no. But that's a legit Shiraz. Okay. Okay. Yeah, it is. And you know, it must be just less wolf predation going on. Things like that. I don't know. We wondered that because we saw wolf sign when we were there in 2007. And then it feels like, but a lot's changed. You hunt them now. You can trap them. I don't want to pretend. I don't know off the top of my head the trapping laws for up there. But multiple laws. Oh, yeah. You can trap them. And not tag one. Like not just one a year. Like I think you can. So maybe that's having an impact, I guess, is what I'm saying. Lots changed, though. You know, these states are changing like crazy.

We've even now to where they don't just give over-the-counter deer tags. You know what I mean? Like they do, but there's a certain amount of them. A lot of them. Like what are you talking about? Idaho. Like how do you know specifically how that works and how many are gone and left? I don't know. I might have picked one up. Yeah, me too.

So anyway, I'm just saying I want to make the best use of that. I've heard of the hunting license. Yeah, so we're going to buy a trail bike for $1,500 used on KSL. Yes, that's the trail bike capital. We're going to buy that. We're going to drive up their gas, food, groceries, all that, and we'll be in it. And a wolf tag for $31. Maybe two because if you see one, you're going to see a pack. That's right. So pretty soon, let's just call it 50. With the bike, you're in it, you know, $2,500. To make good on that hunting license. That's right. To make sure I get the full value. Good money after bad. But anyway, having said that. It's about the memories and experience. Oh, yeah. Tell Janet that. Anyway, yeah, there's a lot going on here at Epic Outdoors. We appreciate all y'all out there. There's a lot going on in the States.

We haven't, we've unpurposely ignored some of the subjects because they're controversial and everybody has an opinion and no opinion is perfectly right. And there's things we've alluded to them. Although I think ours are right. Whether it be Utah, whether it be Montana, whether it be some of the things we alluded to in New Mexico. So if and when they happen and they get passed, that's when the implication, all right, this is how it's going to affect you. This is what you'd be prepared for this year. There's things that can morph. There's percentages that can change, like in the Montana bill, which already has changed in terms of being proposed. So we'll just see what happens, happens, and then we'll have to react. That's what we're good at, reacting. People do want our opinions at times, and we give them when they ask. But, you know, anyway. We will. Just, I don't know.

You never know about some of this stuff, right, Chris? That's right. Sometimes it's best to say nothing, Bronson. All right. So are we going to end with, we built this. Is that the Alison Krauss song? We built this place on monster. You say it best when you say nothing at all. No. No. So we're going to end on that. No. Well, I have just, stuff comes to my weird brain. That.

Build this business. Build this business on purple monster.

That's our little anthem at about 4.30 every morning. It's just another Sunday. We don't usually work Sundays, but anyway. Anyway. Don't like to. Don't like to. But sometimes you don't. You got to do things you don't like to do. All right, fellas. That's better than leaving on Alison Krauss. Nothing against her. That's just a little. She's all right. A little flowery. That song. I mean. It's a little. We're not playing it. Let's put it that way. That's right. All right. Doesn't end on a good note. Okay, everybody. That's something you play for Valentine's Day, not on our podcast. How was your Valentine's Day, by the way? Good. I think it was on a Sunday. So it was pretty. We actually went out to sushi. Sushi on Saturday. It was great. It was awesome. Yeah. And Jan and I had a great day. But anyway. All y'all out there. Chris, did you have a good Valentine's Day? Yeah. Yeah? Yeah.

Do anything air shattering? Chris always blows us away in thoughtfulness. I didn't do that great this year. I went to. Well, you'd already landed the proposal, what, a week or two prior. So like. For all intents and purposes, you're married now. She gets what she gets. Don't throw a fit. I piggybacked on. I am who I am. The engagement. She got me some tools and stuff. She did? Geez. Wow. She just doesn't want you to use hers. I took her. Yeah. I took her to sushi. Did you do? Do you eat sushi, Chris? Yeah. No way. Yeah. When? We never see you there. Well, when on Valentine's Day. Well, good. All right, everybody. Hope y'all had a good Valentine's Day. Hope you celebrated Trump on President's Day. And everybody needs to be applying in either the Nevada Guide Draw and or New Mexico and or Utah. We'll talk about Oregon later. Peace out. Peace out. Peace out. Peace out. Thank you.