EP 198: Colorado Mule Deer Unit by Unit Breakdown

Unit by unit in Colorado for deer. It's on the front burner. The dates move late. Everybody's been talked about. Everybody knows about it. And there is escapement in that country. Got some big deer. Got a lot of wilderness there. Anything to do with western big game. Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast powered by Under Armour. Let's get going, fellas. Here we are in southern Utah. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast coming at you from From Southern Utah, me and Bronson here at the Mikes along with Chris Peterson. Anyway, we'd like to thank Under Armour for helping us out in a lot of different projects. Thanks, Under Armour, and all you do for us here in the outdoor community. Another thing that we need to bring up as we get started is something that we've talked about a little bit in the past,

but this year's a little bit different in terms of all the banquets and conventions. They have been canceled, and a lot of those typically had auctions for tags. We've had a lot of people ask, what happens to those tags in a year like this? Now, through HuntAndFishConnection.com, here, I believe, Sports and Fish and Wildlife, Mule Deer Foundation, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation tags here in Utah are, for the remainder of this year, for 2021, going to be pushed and marketed through that website. Yeah, HuntAndFishConnection.com. HuntAndFishConnection.com. These are auction tags. They're not raffle tags. But they have them for all species. There's turkey tags on there now, there's deer, elk, antelope, bush sheep, goat. We'll just throw them all out there. Cow elk, if you're interested in, fill in the freezer, Carter. Something, yeah. Anything. Something for everyone. That's right.

Even turkey hunters. And they'll be released weekly from now, probably for, I would imagine, a couple of months. So, keep an eye on the website there. You might set it as a bookmark on your browser or whatever. Just check it on a regular basis. You never know, there might be tags on there you'd be interested in. Definitely gonna be the way of the future, so to speak. There's gonna be a lot of tags being sold on huntandfishconnection.com. Alright, well, we wanted to kinda go over a few things. Bronson, a few years back, and I don't remember how many years ago, but we went unit by unit in Colorado for deer. One to 196. Okay. Did you know? That was terrible, and we were never going to do it again, and now here we are thinking about it. I think part of the reason is a lot of us in the office have burned our points in the last one or two years in Colorado. And so...

By talking about it, it'd give ourselves some ideas? Yeah, well, partially, but it also, we burn points... Muzzle loaders and archery ideas. Hey, that is... I'm getting a lot of good feedback from y'all. I don't need any more llama feedback, but I'm getting a lot of good feedback. People think I'm, you know, they're taking their hat off for me just to consider something besides a November rifle hunt. He wants to do a collab hunt where we video it and he brings the llamas. He's already talking about that today. He called it a collab. That might be worth considering. No. What? Gonna have a spitter spitting on you the whole time? No.

Yeah. Huh? No. No. Maybe. Maybe? But your point about bringing up the map and going through them is just simply to talk about maybe where we've been over the years, and not to say, hey, we've hunted everywhere in Colorado. We haven't hunted everywhere, but to show that we're, maybe, just don't be afraid to go hunt in Colorado. There is so many good options in Colorado right now, and not a lot of no-brainer, elite, great. I don't know if there's any, frankly. Just a whole lot of average. Yeah, so when you rattle off a bunch of units, we're not those guys that are built up 15, 20 points. We use them. We use our points often. I got a question for you, Adam. A whole lot of average. Last year.

Is there another way to say that? That doesn't say it. There's a whole lot of average. Last year, he killed what? Killed a buck. Okay, how big was he? He's a good-eating buck. Okay, how wide was he? Just under 32 wide. How many hours did you hunt? Maybe 1.5. Okay, that's my point. That's my point. Could you have done that anywhere else in the western US? Probably not. And a unit I'd never been to before. Yeah, that's my point. Or Archibald had been to.

How close to a road was it? It wasn't far. How far? He was running hard. Okay, how far? Let's put it that way. Probably less than 200. Well, I shot from about 200 yards from the road. He was another 450, so it was 650 off the road. Okay, okay. In a no-namer unit. I'm just saying there's options, there's opportunities, and while we say there's a whole lot of average, I think we're just slightly tainted, A, we've seen what it could be, what it should be.

And it's not that, and it's not probably going to be. And we'll never quit. I think another problem is we answer the phone here at Epic Outdoors, okay? So, our members can call in, visit with us every day. Some do. All for the $100. Okay. We don't charge you more for talking and getting a mag and, you know, podcasting with us, letting us cold call you. We don't charge anything for that. No, we should, though. We should. Well, if we do, Clint Lester mulls us a lot of money. And we should collect. Yeah. I'd take a credit card from that guy. Alright, so, guys are calling in. I have 15 points, 18 points, 20 points, 23 points, 25 points. Where do I go? I want to make the best use of them, and I'm going to call you back after the season and get mad at you if I have a bad hunt. That's what we feel like. They don't say that, but that's what we feel like, because

we take a lot of pressure and pride in consulting. We want them to be successful. We want them to kill a buck like I'm on the cover. You want to use them wisely, and you want them You want to be able to control the weather so they get two and a half feet of snow three days before their hunt. Okay, and some guys are going to go home when the snow starts, and they should be staying. Some guys are going to have sunburn after eight, nine days of straight sun and no weather. That's right. So, all right, so our cover buck, we're going to talk about that. 228-inch disgusting sick eye guards, which are kind of a fave of mine.

You compare that to my buck on page five. Okay. Compare those Iguards to my buck's Iguards. Okay, yours are slick shanks. Turn the page, compare it to Archibald's. His are slick shanks. Okay, but having said that, I mean, that buck's unbelievable. The cover buck came from a two to three point unit. I mean, you know, a guy would, for all intents and purposes, that's a governor buck, that's a buck that would, you know, that's worthy of 25 points. So, anyway, it could happen anywhere.

Definitely can, and does. Obviously does. More often than not, that way. A 2 to 5 point year than a 20 plus pointer. Unit 44 killed like one 200-inch that I heard of. Maybe. Or was it high 90s? I mean, a great deer. Let's say we heard it was 200, let's call it a low to mid 90s. Probably more realistic. I mean, that's just, and that's one of the best units in the state, traditionally, for years and years and years. Alright, so, these applications are due April 6th, and that's why it's kind of, our magazine just came out. I mean, it's been on the web for a while, the e-mag version, but as far as the paper mag, people are getting it. It's the March 2021 issue, third issue of the year. We produce it every single month. This particular issue covers Colorado all species, as well as Idaho sheep, goat, moose, and Montana deer and elk.

Don't know that we're going to talk a lot about Montana today. No, not today. Maybe another day. Today, let's, I mean, we're going to start getting crushed in the office on consulting deer units in Colorado. We have a lot, but it's on the front burner. The dates move late. Everybody's been talked about it. Everybody knows about it. That's why I'm going a different direction, and I've said that. Yeah. And Jason doesn't think I'm in it. Well, I mean, there's a difference between good intentions and a liar. Hey. No. I have good intentions. But there's bucks. But there's late season bucks to be had. Yeah, but there's early season bucks. I mean, there's velvet muzzleloader bucks in our mag. There's another velvet. Velvet. Then there's late season bucks. Then that guy, right there, that big old typical. Disgusting. Look at him. Jason Newby.

The head cut off. Disgusting big deer. Yeah. All right. So, anyway, we have spent a lot of time in Colorado. We spent the better part of the last 15 to 18 years. Jesus, even went out on Pinyon Canyon at 142 back in 1996. So, done a lot of hunting out there, and you know, anyway, just pretty awesome. Had some great experiences, had some not so great experiences, ate our tags, all of us have. Chris, you've ate a tag or two, huh? Yeah. Slept in the back of trucks. Oh, months. Months. If you added it all up, it would be months. Months. So, anyway, there's some definite opportunities out there. Some of the better known units, Bronson, let's talk, let's say 44 Gunnison units, which would be 54, 55, 66, 67, 551. You know, 44 at Eagle, we hear a lot about, but let's just talk, should we just talk Gunnison? Should we talk quadrants of the state?

Sure. How should we break this down? At some point, I mean, while we do have experience in a lot of these units we're going to talk about, like Jason alluded, it's over 15 to 18 years. So, if somebody's going to call me about my 43 experience, it's been a minute. Oh, yeah. Like 13 years, 14 years? Yeah, that's right. 15. That's right. There's three generations of a deer that have been born and died since I was there. So, I mean, I can't tell you where to go. The hot spot within a unit like that is, but I can tell you the public land, breakdown, all that. But yeah, we can talk about however you want. But I think we also talk to a lot of hunters, and we get a really good feel for what's going on out there in the big wide world of Colorado. We should do a 30 at some point in the podcast, just for fun. Do a look at the map, and in

30 to 40 seconds, you have to be accurate. Rattle off the units you've personally hunted. No. No, I mean, it'd be kind of fun. No. Why? I don't know. Okay, well, where do you want to start? Let's do quadrants then. Okay, I don't know. Well, alright, so let's just start over. Should we start over here on the Utah border? Okay. I don't know. We could do that. We've hunted 21, 40, 61, 60, 70, 71, 711. 72. Have you spent time out there? No. I've driven through that many times. Some of the bean fields and different things. We've got a lot of friends that have hunted it. Yeah. Lots over there.

So, there's a lot over there. So, 21, let's just start 21. Some stuff's come and gone, it feels like. 21 was, and it still takes a grundle of points. It just, and well, how about 30 to the south of it? Okay, 30 is, I took it out of the mag this year. Took it out. Yeah. For a lot of years. Can you remember, can you think of the last big buck killed in 30? I'm sure somebody's gonna call us on the podcast now. Please do. Email Jason at EpicOutdoors.com. Hashtag, this is a unit 30 buck. Please do. But I'm telling you, it seems like it's disappeared. 21's disappeared. And if you talk to a lot of people that are intimately familiar with the Bookcliffe side of Utah, with the tags, a lot of the general feeling is they've been given a lot of opportunity, a lot of tags on that side. It's kind of gone both sides of the line right there, and quality has moderated.

I hate that word. It's like a hidden gem. I hate that freaking word. I hate it. But anyway, has moderated. But what does that mean? There's a lot of deer in 21. People are going to have fun. If you're looking for 150 to 170-inch deer, you can have a blast. You're going to drive around and see lots of bucks. And it's truly a drive around and glass and enjoy the scenery and see lots of deer. But you've killed multiple 200-inches there. Okay, yeah. And that's been, that's kind of like what I was saying about 43. Has that been 10 to 12 years ago? I was on 10 plus years ago, and you know, yeah, and it was an awesome experience, right? I mean, 34 inch, 207, great buck off Oil Spring Wilderness, Texas Mountain Country. But anyway, that is, you know, and back then, I guess, this is part of it, back then, when I was hunting it back then, it was a has-been unit to the locals, the local outfitters.

They knew it was already not what good it was, but we coming from Utah, we're like, whoa, what have we been missing? Okay, I don't even know this unit. There's a big buck. And he's dead. Yeah, and he died. And then we killed another buck that was 212-ish. Remember the same, almost exact same thing when I went to 61? It was almost the same thing. It felt like I was two to three or four years. Dude, you turned the AC on on the way home. You shot the buck and turned the AC on. It felt like I was two to three years after its, I can't even really say its peak, but people were starting to send a... How about those pictures of those dark horn monsters that we still have in our mind?

Yeah, and I shot a 207 buck. He's kind of a white tail looking side, big weird frame. And I was ready for a grind. And I've never, driving home, I don't know, it was 75 degrees, third season or something. It was crazy. And that unit feels like it. After that, really bottomed out. Now we're seeing and hearing maybe some better things. They've cut tags. They've had some recent burns. I mean, over 10 to 15 years, you've got to remember, units come and go and come again, you know, or go again. And that's what I wonder, with this one, it's had tag cuts 110, then up to 120, 115, 100, 90, just to quote on the third. I mean, when you have that, it's very tightly managed compared to other units. Then you've got a burn in 2018, you've got all this feed, it kind of opens it up, it's glassable and whatnot.

It's kind of been off the radar, and so even though they're issuing this many tags, I mean, you could say, you guys could argue and say, well, there's 90 tags. There's 90 tags no matter what. If it's on the radar, off the radar, whatever. But there's a different caliber of hunters going to these Wazoo units that are up and coming. You could give, let's talk about Gunness and some of that country. You give a certain finite number of tags, it's quantifiable, but if you dish those out to hardcore hunters, or you dish them out to, Just guys that are looking for 160-inch bucks. It can change the quality, change the dynamics. Well, I think it honestly, we talked a little bit about that with Mike Duplan when we had him on, is people, increasing over the last 15 years, have viewed Colorado from, especially non-residents,

and even a lot of residents, as a trophy deer state, and that's how they go there. They pour a little bit more into it than just, hey, I've got an Idaho general season tag in my pocket, I'm just going to go up there and have a good time and crush a three or four point if I see one. Yeah. They go there, they put a little bit extra time in, hike further. There are just not a lot of people go to Colorado with the intention of just filling deer tags. I'm not minimizing the people that do have that mentality. I'm just saying it feels like a very directed, hardcore mule deer driven state. It is, and I think if you issued those same season dates in Idaho, you would have that same pressure. You know what I mean? When you're hunting, I mean, until November 7th on a second. Let me... What? What if we had November 13th to 19th in Utah?

What if we had a general dates on those? What would we have left in our state? What would we have left if we had a second and third season, and a fourth in Utah? I know. Chris? Nothing. Could we even hunt again the next year? Let's just say we went to the late season muzzle order dates of November 11 with rifles in Utah. You know, we have that late season muzzle very tightly. Yeah, we flirt with it now with five to ten tags, and we're nervous about that. Okay, let's do hundreds of tags, and then the next week, another 500 or 200 tags on a third, and then let's throw 30 to 50 fourths after that around Thanksgiving. It's almost a miracle Colorado can still produce what it can produce. It's a testament to it being the deer factory. It's the deer factory. Yeah. No other place could withstand it. If you can hunt it like they do, and still have any chance to produce these kind of deer,

anything, any unit that has hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of tags over multiple seasons, and I know everybody's going to say, hey Utah, you give 85,000, you killed some bucks like that. Yes, but we have a nine-day rifle hunt in mid to late October. That's right. With, you know... October 31st now, and we're thinking that's exciting. Yeah. And Colorado, to add to on top of it, what do they do to make it tougher for you in second and third season when you're hunting deer? Ah, let's just throw a flutter with elk hunters there. So, let's just make game running, I mean... And that might help them. It might help them. It probably reduces... Hunters are messing up hunters. Yeah, there's so much pressure that there's an overload, and there's less success. And let's sell bear tags over the counter, too. I mean, you know. I mean, serious. Yeah. I know. I know. So, all right.

So, 21's overhunted. If you want to go there, great. You'd have a great experience having said that. I can't think of the last 200-inch. Last year, I heard there was a 195-inch killed on the second season. I didn't see a picture of it. 22 borders it. I've hunted it. That's killed a great buck out of there. Stars fading. It is, but it was fading when I hunted it in 2018, and it's killed a good one. But then, you know, anyway, been there since. It's got... I love the units. I love those units. I like them. They're awesome, and you see plenty of deer. And there is escapement in that country, meaning roads with thick, thick trees.

It's amazing. Yeah, it saves deer, man. It does. You've hunted a Bronson? I mean, all that country on the north and west side of the unit is just a lot of thick trees, unless you get next to Highway 64. But having said that, there's a lot of escapement, but there's a lot of take. There's a lot of hunters, there's a lot of take, and guys are good at killing stuff. So, anyway, that border's 21, and was incredible. There's got multiple guys out there killed multiple 200-inches there, year to year to year, and then it's just, you know, time's gone up. It goes a little bit. Yeah. Unit 10, incredible opportunity there, super tightly managed. Kind of back in the day, Bronson, it just plummeted, and as a result, they just restricted the tags.

These guys are talking about a lot of, you see a lot of bucks. Not killing or seeing a lot of 190 to 200 inches like you'd think you'd see for waiting the amount of years. I mean, it takes to draw. I mean, geez, it takes 18 points to draw second season tag there, Carter. I know. Second. I know. But you gotta realize there's... And my wife has the points to draw, and I've half thought of a planner there. Yeah, just because it's unique. I mean, meaning, how are you ever gonna go there? You're never gonna probably find a lantern tagged if you really want, or they'll be real expensive.

Elk tags are on a draw, you're not over the counter, and you've got 25 total tags on the second season. How awesome would that be? Just a great experience, right? Third season's taking 24. 24 points? Yeah. Well, there's also a few great bucks, and obviously, when you have that few tag numbers, it's a big unit, and it borders 21, it borders 22. I mean, it's big country in there. It does have quite a bit of private, and I think that's got some good bucks on it, too. So, it's just, yeah, it just kind of helps these bucks get a little age on them. So, anyway, we've hunted 11 to 11. Probably shouldn't go there. A lot of... It was a terrible experience. Well, if you're a screwed... It's screwed. Why is it so bad he didn't go to Colorado last year? Well, you know we're not kidding. You know, I know you're gonna listen to this. And I did that with him, and he holds it against me.

Well, you more or less talked him into doing it. Well, let's try it. It borders all the good units. Yeah, we did, but it, and you saw a lot of deer and a lot of bucks. The country's incredible. But just, not a lot of age on your bucks, right? I think they decided to dang near double the tags. The year you drew? Yeah. Yeah. Not good. No. Moving, I guess if you want to just keep slightly moving a little bit west, just get into the little bit further east, the 34, 25, 26, 35, 36 clusters. Okay, I've spent a lot of time in the 35, 36. You spent a lot of time in 25, 26.

34, I hunted 34, and 35. All of us have. Yeah, you have. You and Mackenzie hiked in there. Yeah. You were going to take horses. Did you? Yeah, we were going to. We didn't end up taking them, and after the fact, I wish I would have. Really? Mm-hmm. Well, just to get away a little bit. There's not a good trail system in there. There's not like a good... How would you bear... Is there? No, there's a few spots. It was just one of those things I thought it might be borderline too late to get into the high country. But once I got there, I realized there's a lot of kind of middle ground that I could have accessed. Because what happens, I feel like, in 35 is there's so many people. Anything that's close to a road, you're done. Like, there's people everywhere. Didn't you have people shooting over top of you? Yeah, we had a buck. What's a bullet sound like that?

Another one. They shot over top of our head. Duck, Chris, duck. It wasn't a good experience. Not when you got your girlfriend there, you're trying to keep her safe. Well, that was another time you and John about got shot. But anyway, that was an elk hunt. You had an elk hunt. I forgot about that. That was up in 18. We will move that way in just a minute. But these units that we're talking about here, these are not, you wouldn't label them as trophy units, but they are capable of it. They're in the best counties in Colorado. Honestly, 35, 36, if they managed, that would be the number one unit maybe in the western United States. That being said. It's a deer factory. The feed's unbelievable. Go ahead. That being said, a couple years ago, what kind of deer did people from the office kill? Yeah. You killed a two-twelver?

Two-twelver. Kurt kills 189 inches that we've seen from the highway. I mean, just shot illegally, everybody. He shot illegally. Kurt got off the bar ditch and smashed it. And the game warden pulled up. Well, yeah, the game warden pulls up. We had to take off our arm. I'm like, Kurt, the hunt's over. You killed one. Tag it. Let's take off our orange, because it was like right next to a main road. And you feel like all the yuppies are judging you, you know? I'm going to get out and hurt you. Harass. You know what I mean? Harass me. I don't want to be harassed. Speaking of harassing, remember that buck where we had the jingle bells? The lady with jingle bells pushed that buck? Yeah. We still smashed that buck. We had a buck bedded, and a tree hugger lady walked in between us and the deer with

The bell ringing a bell. We videoed it. Yeah. That was- With the one intention, right? She wasn't looking- She wasn't- That wasn't her- Her dog didn't come to- Her llama didn't come when she rang the bell. She hadn't lost it. She saw people in orange, and she wanted to scare the deer. Why does it not come full circle on those people? Why? You never know. Anyway. But having said that, Bronson, we were talking about the good zip codes. Yes, that's a zip code. That border's 44, dude. Yeah, and what's the difference between north side of I-70 and south? Well, a deer- Deer numbers in 44 suck, okay?

But tag numbers. There's nothing on the south, on the north. Good crime. They act like they care about 44. Don't you feel like if they cut back tag numbers on 35, it would be every bit as good as 44? It would be nothing like it. Last year, 640 tags. The year before that, 800 on the third. 25, 26, got some big deer, got a lot of wilderness there. It's generally a lot of tags. 26 is heavily private land. They pour the tags to the unit, and it's not a hard one to get either. 34, way too many tags for how many deer are alive there. And 34, I felt like when I hunted there, it was tough. Access is very tough. A lot of it's cliff face. Canyon-y. Canyon's cliff face. There's like two access roads. I mean, there's more than that.

And you think you'd get into a place where, like, if I just put it for effort, I'll see a bunch of deer. No, you just don't. You put for effort there and still don't see deer. Yeah. Sliding a little further east, you got the mega monstrosity of the 18 cluster. How many frequent tags are in there? Okay, lots. How many thousand? There's incredible genetics there, and there's big country. There's more public land country. There's a lot of private. 14. There's more public than you can hunt in the season. 14. Another one of those units. You've been there, too. Yeah, another one of those units, if they cut tags a little bit, it would be incredible. Yeah, and we're not saying, we understand. We see the units that are low tags, and sometimes they still can't produce and hang on. High tags mean high deer numbers, too.

They generally do, and that generally does mean that. But if you can, I think you guys both spent some time there on a fourth season before, maybe Chris on the third, but John, I don't remember a couple times. But the pressure relaxed on the fourth season, if I'm not mistaken. Oh, yeah. Fourth was great. It wasn't like you're by yourself, but it was dramatically different. You got a couple All hunter tags versus 1,400. That's true. The downside is sometimes, and this was the case when we hunted it, the second and third have a better hunt. You're clean up. You're hunting after everybody got done because whenever the snow hits, that's who has the best hunt. And what's the tendency? I've said that on several units this year that have deer that early migrate or move early or show up on winter range early. By a fourth season this year, you're running a big risk of what do you got left.

What do you got left? You're hunting gut piles. What do you got left, and you got five days to do it in? Bronson, I think, wasn't there, I can't remember, were you on that fourth season when there was three days of blizzard? Oh yeah, that was me, yeah. In 25? Was it 25, 26? Yeah, it was. I can't remember. It was one year, it was eight or so years ago. It was three out of the five days you were. It was either the first day or the second day of my hunt, I saw a giant. And it was a white-out blizzard, and I let it, it got dark that night. Couldn't do it. The next day was a white-out from daylight till dark. And that was, so I found it, I actually found it on night of day two, day three was a wide out, day four was an off and on, in and out wide out, and then it left me, day five was clear as a bell. And you smashed one. A different, my backup buck, he was a six by four, but he

was right over here in my back pocket, I had him in my pocket. So, I shot a six by four in Gunnison one year. I think this was similar situations. Was it? Did you misjudge that buck? No, this one's a good one. I shot a different buck, a four by four. Oh, that you misjudged? That was not quite as good as that. That you walked up, and you're like, wow, this wasn't what it looked like from- I did that. ... five, six hundred yards through a quakey stand when you're threading one through trees, and you're on your gun for 30 minutes waiting for it to, you know, get in the quakeys. So, what, what, let's, learning, learning, learning curve here. What caused, what do you think, why do you think that you misjudged that one? Was it just accidental and you don't know what happened? Because I know what happened to me. Well, you were 80 yards. I looked at mine at 100 yards with 15s.

Mine, I think I was... Don't do that. I think mine, I had it in a rifle scope too long. Okay. And it was dying. Well, it was at 10,000 feet, if I'm wondering. Oh, yeah. And you had to hike your guns out. And I'm in the trees, but I'm alone. I don't have anybody else there. And so, I'd seen the deer go in there, and then it gets up at feeds, but it's like parts of the deer, it's in a quakey stand. And if you're hunting Colorado enough, they still think they're hidden in quakeys. When you get snow on the ground,

The leaves are off. They're gone, and you can see them, but I was just waiting, and I was literally 30 minutes, and it got to the point the slack was out a little bit, and it was like I was just on the gun too long. Well, as soon as I had a shot, I was like, there's my shot. I think you were thinking like 29 inch or whatever. I thought that was going to be a 185, really solid buck. That was the third season, or maybe it was the fourth, I don't remember. 18 cent turned to 15 cent. I don't know. I never named him, but he definitely did get a name after I got him. Okay, okay. I didn't name him before, and he definitely did get a name after. Remember, you were talking about 2005, and I think, was it 2004 that you had fond memories you killed a giant? I can't remember. That was a 43 hunt, yeah. Yeah, and those were-

The first 200-inch. Yeah. Well, in 2005, I misjudged my buck. So, think about this, the most amazing era in my lifetime. And I'm in Gunnison, one of the most amazing places on earth in my lifetime. 54, I don't remember where you were. Yeah, 54. And I glassed up this buck with 15s. And I'm young. I'm young, and I had a lot to learn. Kickers. Yeah, I had a kicker, too. Double eye guards. Whatever, at base of point, I don't know, is the biggest three and a half year old I've ever seen. And I walk up to him, I'm like, oh. Anyway, having said that, I learned what not to do. Don't glass bucks with 15 BTXs or whatever at 100 yards, because you're gonna shoot them. All right, so that's... You got a story, Chris? Oh, yeah. Whoa, let him pipe up. Also, don't let someone else judge the buck for you when they want to go home. Oh! Yes! I remember this one! I don't. Tell me. Oh, yeah.

So, I was up on top of this mountain, and someone else was with me, and apparently they wanted to go home, and they were glassing this face. And I get a call, because I was up in sales service, and so was he. I get a call, he's like, I got a buck you need to come look at. And I said, well, how big is it? Because that's a long hike down there. I don't want to hike down there if it's not a big buck. And he's like, oh, it's a 180 buck. And I'm like, alright, well, I'm looking for something special. So, I'm gonna wait. Well, I go back to Glasson. Now he knows he's got to pour it on harder. The next time the deer stands up out of his bed, he's got to... I go back to glass, and it's getting close to when you typically pack up and head home because the deer are bedding. And he calls me again, he's like, I really think you need to come take a look at this deer.

And I'm like, well, how good is he? Because like I said, it's a long hike down there. I don't want to go if it's not a significant buck. And he's like, well, it's definitely, definitely over 180 and maybe close to 190. And I'm like, okay, well, if that's what it is... He turned it up. He turned it up a notch. Yep. If that's what it is, I'm gonna hike down there. So, I hike down these cliffs, and it's one of those that you're like, I don't even want to hike back out of here. And I get set up, and the buck's bedded, and I can't see it. And so, of course, we decided... He tells me he's gonna do it. He's gonna bump it. He's gonna bump it. Well, A, because he... If you wait till dark and you kill it, then it's... You're not getting home that night, so it's the next day. So, he's thinking, we gotta expedite this.

I'm just gonna go in there and bump it. And if I bump it, Chris is gonna have to dump it before he gets to judge it. It starts running away from him. It's gonna look big. And I was above where I had a good command of everywhere that that buck could go. And typically, they're just gonna stand up and run 50, 60 yards and look back. Look back. Well, that's exactly what happened, but it happens fast. If you don't take the shot, then the buck's too far away. And you're the guy that didn't get it done forevermore. Yeah, exactly. So, I'm like, well, that buck's gonna stand up. As soon as it stops, I'm gonna dump it. Well, it jumps up, exactly like Adam says, and it's bounding away, and it looks pretty good. It was a beautiful typical... Plus, you had a guy on the glass that knew what he was doing. Exactly, and I know he knew what he was doing. And it was a beautiful buck, but I dumped it.

As soon as it stops, I dumped it. And I walked down there, and it was a little bit sad, It was such a pretty buck, but it was just super young. Another year, it would have been amazing. It had deep forks and big eye guards, and it was just an awesome buck, but young. So, anyway, there's another... What did you learn? That's what I learned. Put your eyes on your own buck. Even if somebody knows what they're doing, don't always trust somebody else's judgment. I like it. Yeah. I like it. I like that. Yeah. But it's also... Good lessons. But there's still things that are going to come up again when you're by yourself, and your neck's so when you've been trying to thread a needle for 30 minutes on a deer in the Quakeys. At some point, it gets personal with that animal. It's true. Were you on day five? No, because we killed Aaron's deer the next day.

I think that was day four in the evening, so it was late. Of a five day. Yeah, and the next day, he freaking smashed a great buck, more or less out the pickup, rutting dough. I mean, like, crushed, got out, and, I mean, literally. Bacca! Like, okay, yeah, that went good. And there's a fine line between taking enough time to judge an animal and losing the animal because you weren't fast enough. You don't know what you got until it's gone. That whole premise. Exactly. I mean, you never know when you should have until it was too late. Like, I should have... That 350-yard shot, broadside, that was the shot I should have taken Because he looked pretty good walking away after that. I've had bugs that look good walking away. Alright, so one thing I want to talk about, Bronson, we talked about 44 a little bit.

This is just a great example. You know, 44 fourth season, I mean, we're talking it takes 24 points. 25% draw with 24, okay? Third season, if I remember right, it was 21. It was a percentage with 21. Here it is. 33% with 21. Okay, second season. Okay, second season, we're talking... 9, 10. Right here, seven points. 14% with seven. And so, at times, we've seen the second season. I've hunted 44 second. Yeah. I've been on there in the third. You know, but we've seen the best hunts occur on the second with a snowstorm. And so, that's kind of the case with 44. There's a lot of thick timber in that unit. The upper elevation stuff is still thick. It's not like it balls off above tree lines, so to speak. And so, that country's really tough archery and muzzle. Really tough. Yeah, I'm not looking at that as an option for me this

year. No, but guys do say, hey, why not hunt the best unit in the state, archery and muzzle? Why wouldn't you do that? At least got some age on it. I mean, people haven't killed good They have. They have. But in general, the thick, early, when deer are more in a summer pattern, quote, visible, there's units that definitely play into that hand a lot more, and that probably wouldn't be one of those on a consistent year-after-year basis. I mean, yeah, you can go there just because they manage very conservatively, turn up an awesome buck at any time, but generally, archery muzzle, you want the ability to glass, bed, spot a buck, bed him. Above timberline type stuff, or maybe a high desert type stuff.

I think a 61 or a 61 or something like that, which got a lot of oak. But anyway, there's, you know, that second season, taking seven points, guys look at that, that'll probably jump to 10 or 11 points. I mean, you know, just because of the onslaught of people looking to apply this year with the late season dates. You brought up a point that we get, we're getting asked a lot, is the effect of point creep. What's that going to look like this year? And I've got my thoughts, but what are your thoughts? Well, I just like to... I think... Adam and I do get this question a lot, and a lot of times, it's predicated upon tag numbers. Number one, absolutely. And I've had a few people even not really understand that it's a preference point system and predicated by applicants that year. They become combative, not just disagreeing with you. They become combative.

They almost say, well, how many points is it going to take this year to draw? Like the state arbitrarily picks a number and says, that we think is going to take nine this year. It's totally a product of how you apply. And I know that for a lot of you who listen to this, you might think, well, yeah, duh. But I've had a few people explain that to me. So, it took seven last year. With the late dates, how many is it going to take this year? Not understanding it's totally at a relationship of who applies this year with their points. And that's the deriving factor. When you have four non-resident tags, which in a lot of cases there are, four, three, ten, whatever, you can just have just a few applicants come over and it changes everything. Yeah. You know, from either applying points only or other units last year. I mean, so...

Yeah, you look at a unit like a, I don't know, let's take a 35, 36 third. Okay. 640 tags, 200 tags to non-residents last year. It was a 30% draw with zero points. Would it surprise me if it was zero, if you needed a point to get it this year? No, but it's not going to jump to three, four, or five points. That's because you would need hundreds, a hundred new applicants with points to change it. Yeah, and so that's not going to happen. Five or ten people aren't going to. Now you look at unit 10, third, I mean, it's hard to, maybe that's not a good example. It is. Well, it is. There's 15 tags, only four non-residents. So, let's say a group of four from, you know. Wherever. I was going to pick one of the fifths. I about said Kentucky, but I don't have anything against... I have one friend in Kentucky that I know, and that's Jarrett Dooling, Dooling Stone Outfitters.

But let's say a group from Kentucky wants to come, and they've been building points for 26 years, and they want to burn their 26. And they jump in this year, okay, they're going to get whatever they have. And there's going to be guys saying, yeah, but I had 24. And how come I didn't get it? You guys said 24, and that's what it just, it doesn't take much to change these things. This was a reflection of what it took last year. Remember, it's a preference point system. They start at the top and start divvying out tags layer by layer until they simply run out based on applicants. Yeah, guys with high points have preference over guys with less points. There's no random draw. We also get questions from people in Colorado on Deer and Elk. Say, hey, well, I just want to put them for the best unit. We'll get them the last three or four days, just in case I get lucky.

There is no getting lucky on deer and elk. You know, you don't put him for 44 third if you have three points. There's no, I mean, it's nothing going to hurt. You're going to get a bonus point, but there's no random portion of the draw. I think it's just understanding the point systems, how to apply. But, you know, part of this too, remember, these are last year's draws. You had one point less than you have right now. Another big factor. When you applied. So, let's say it was, I don't know, unit 10 third, we can't beat up on it anymore, so let's just do it. Nobody's, quote, favorited. Everybody, you know, it's a 24-point unit, so what are we going to do to hurt the odds there? So, let's talk about it. Last year, those guys that applied, and drew, they had 24 last year. If you have 24 this year, you had 23 last year.

So, you may not get it with 24 this year. Yeah, and so, I think that's a lot of, you know, a lot of what happens here. Of course, there's also some self-fulfilling prophecy going on here. People look at what it takes, and if it took five or six points, guys with less The scientists aren't really looking at applying there thinking they might have a chance. Let's talk about that. People thinking they got to come in by the skin of their teeth. This is a year more than any other, I contend, that don't... If you want to go hunting, pick a unit and go hunting. Don't think... If you've got 11 points and something took 10 last year, that's a good option. But if something took 7 or 8, that's a waste of your points. Don't think that. And if it took 10 and you have 11, there's a chance you're not going.

That's right. That's right. I had that talk today with somebody with four seasons on the brain, and I'm like, you can't bring up something that took more points than you have, let alone anything, you know, where you're at. Something that took 15 points last year, you've got 12. Don't even think about it. On a fourth season. A lot of that's going on. We know guys with 15 points applying for seven, eight point units. Second season. We do. I'm just saying, and multiple guys, not one or two. We're not even singling out one or two. No. If you're in a 15 point tier. And I'm not faulting them one bit. They're going hunting. They're booking their vacation right now. Cover buck came from nothing units. I'm just saying, and that's what we're saying. We're saying is if you have 15 points And you burn them on an eight-point unit, ten-point unit, twelve-point unit, you didn't waste a single thing.

You're going to probably go hunting. That's right. And you can count on it. Now, if you have your 15 and you put in for a 13 to 14 pointer, you're breathing hard until the end of May to find out whether you got it. And then, good luck playing the leftover list game this summer. So, let's do this. Let's burn it up. Let's burn it up. Let's talk about these units real quick, give a quick rendition of what we think is happening, super quick. And let's just cover some things. A lot of these are questions we're getting on a regular basis. I'll go until I need a breath, and you freaking take over, okay? All right, so I'm going to take a strip. Let's talk about the Wyoming border just for a minute. You get the planes, okay? Up here, so we've got units 201, 1, 2. I mean, two's got a lot of just wide open country, not high densities of deer, and a lot of just average bucks.

I always feel like two has incredible potential because it's a giant unit. It's one of the biggest units in the entire state, and there has to be bucks dying of old age. However, I hardly ever hear of one. Well, partly because there's almost no tags. So, hardly no tags, and in a giant unit. I'm just thinking, I want to be a hero someday and go hunt it. Having said that, I don't know if I have the guts to do it.

So, anyway, not one we look at heavily. I do have a friend that hunted there. They sell 40 or 50 bucks. Had a good time, but it wasn't next level potential. Unit 1, tiny little unit, got private in it. Does have some freaking great bucks. The locals keep it quiet. There's also private, and they have access on that. That helps them. There's also Monument in there. There's bucks that kind of have a little refuge and get some age. There's great potential there, but it is a different unit to hunt. 201 has great 180, 190 type potential, and borders at 102 and Wyoming. I mean, there's some great things about that country right there. I guess I need a breath. Okay. Do I have to go south or east? Wherever you want. We've talked about a lot of the stuff just south of there, the 10, 21, 22, 30, 31, 40, 62, 70.

It feels like those units, the 40, 61, 62, I'm not going to lump 70 into that. It still feels like 70, 71, 711. It used to be a really popular place to just go crush four points. They're still good for that, but man, it doesn't feel like they're killing many 175, 185 type deer out of those units right now. Almost everybody you talk to hunting the 70, 71, 7-11 on the public land at least are not having quite as good of hunts on the older deer. Now, 61, 40, 62 feels like, I'm not saying monumental, but a definite trending upward. They used to be, it feels like, 10 years ago, 15, hotter, went through a spell, they were just kind of there, and it maybe feels like they're trending back the other direction based on what we're seeing, hearing, and, you know, multiple. Multiple people. I don't know if we go to southwest or southwest corner, a lot of private down that way, reservation.

Not to say that some of the 72, 73, 741, 711, 75 stuff don't have good deer. They do. There's a lot of movement in those deer. The 75, 751, 74, 741 deer, a lot of those are drifting south, right? 77, 771, a lot of those are the deer 78 that drift south into New Mexico to bee country, late. A lot of those deer you don't hunt repeatedly the whole hunt, they're on the move. But they produce some big deer, dude. I've hunted 77 for elk a couple of times back in the day, archery elk in the Winterman Uch wilderness. Saw some great bucks there, definitely capable of it. It just feels like the lower elevations of those units get tied up on private, or they drift onto reservations, slash, even across state line. I hear you on the private stuff. Well, let's move up to the Wyoming border again. I'll keep going.

Got four, five, 161 country. I've been in all that country right there, the 161 stuff. There's good potential in there. There's been some really good bucks taken in the four and five country. There's some private you're dealing with, and public, And then those bucks are also tend to migrate with time into Wyoming, especially as you get closer to 161, 6, 7, all that country. You're having a lot of movement. Yeah. Even the telemetry studies are showing they're moving in the first part of October sometimes. Mid-October, a lot of it depends on weather and stuff. Those seasons are pretty awesome in the regard of tag numbers, especially as you get further east. There's lower tag numbers, very conservatively managed. And then, you know, late season, if they're in Wyoming, there's no real late seasons in Wyoming, and so they're protected.

So, we're seeing a little bit of an older age class buck, but it's not like next level genetics like, say, Eagle has at 44. Or numbers because of the deer, I don't know, 80%, a lot of, some of the biologists will tell you 80%, 75, 80% of the deer are moving to Wyoming to winter. So, with whatever stays, that's why you have such low tag numbers on third and fourth season, is there's a lot of the deer have left the state.

So, good quality, but low tag numbers, I would say very volatile in terms of point creep in that area because of those low tag numbers. Low tag numbers, yep. And I hunted early season in some of that stuff, too. I think you've hunted it back in the day a little bit later. Anyway, there's, you know, we know there's good potential in there. It's just a totally different hunt. So, anyway, good potential, older age class bucks. Yeah, not used to deer. Too much snow can be a bad thing. You're not used to that in Colorado. Too much early storm in that could be a bad thing. It could potentially in something like 161, 6, that country, 16, be too much of a good thing if you get too much of it before third and fourth. Too much of a good thing.

Alright, then we'll just go a little bit south. We got 18, 28, 37, 371. We've talked about a lot of that already. I've hunted some of that. Chris has hunted it. John's hunted it and whatnot. Lots of deer. There's a lot of country that just does not get hunted. I hunted out of Granby even, and some of that stuff, there's a lot of country that just doesn't have pressure. And then there's a lot of country that has tons of pressure. It's amazing to me. There were so many people, yet we were still seeing bucks. I didn't see next level bucks, but you go out every day and it was a great hunt. All things considered, it's a super fun hunt, high deer numbers, also high numbers of hunters. Got to be prepared for that. Okay, as we move a little bit further south, we're talking the 501, 50, 500 stuff. There's good potential in there.

Had recent burns. You know, there's guys going in there and hunting 150 to 170 inch type deer. Rarely do we hear of something special out of there, although we know it's possible. Decent access, some private. You know, it's a decent hunt. My son drew a tag in there. We ended up not going yet. Another conflicting tag. But anyway, definitely something for a lower point guy. Having said that, just doesn't feel like it's got next level potential. So, sometimes we tend to not maybe give it even the credit it deserves.

Well, and we're from Utah, and so what I mean by that is we have to drive through how many other units to get clear over there to the front range versus somebody maybe in the Midwest or Eastern U.S. they're coming and want to get past the plains and stop on somebody's front range unit. That country you're talking about, 5501, some of that. Those are units they might look at because they get to them first, where we have to drive all the way through Colorado past a bunch of great deer units to get to them. So, it factors into my decision anyway, I guess.

Of course, yes. Having said that, also some of this country, we've talked about 35, 36, all the potential it has there. Obviously, you know, it's been overhunted. We have seen tag cuts. There's potential for some of that to change. We'll see. But for now, it's not producing near what it once did or what it's capable of. And then 44, 444, Borders 44, there's good potential in there. It does have big chunks of private in there. But guys have had decent hunts in there. It's really, you know, quite a bit easier to draw than, say, the world-renowned .44. So, anyway, potential in that country, and then just south of that, Bronson, that's your famous .43. A lot of people talk about .43 muzzle, archery, earlies, lates, private download. You know, there's just a lot going on there.

A lot of dynamic. A lot of early high country wilderness hunt has an early rifle hunt and a muzzleloader hunt that's popular. And then, it does have a fair amount of private land down low, which is something you need to be prepared to study your GPS, land ownership, map, phone, whatever, on the late season hunt. It's no question about that. South of there, I guess, we get a lot of calls on Gunnison. I mean, all the Gunnison cluster, we've talked about them earlier. But I guess the current state of them had pretty mixed reports last year. And it wasn't the same on all of them. The 66, 67 felt like they underachieved compared to the year before. They seemed like they had great hunts. You were there. Yeah. You were there. I mean, you saw it firsthand. You were in 66. Yeah. I was there with my son. He had a tag. We saw a lot of bucks. Just didn't feel like next level bucks were missing.

And people we were talking to in 67 and a lot of hunters since we talked to, they were saying the same thing. And the year before, Jason, we saw how many deer come out of 67 that were 190 plus solid, great deer. Just a lot of older junk bucks and younger bucks. Younger bucks and older junk bucks. I don't know if that best described it, Chris. I think you hunted there last year. Yeah, I hunted it. And we saw a lot of, you know, 150, 160 bucks, 164 points that people were bringing in, a lot of three points. I saw a lot of deer. There were days you'd see hundreds of deer, but just like you said, nothing next level. I think the best buck I saw was probably mid-170s, and I hunted my guts out for seven days. The whole second season pretty much. I hunted hard. And last year, some of the better bucks we saw came off of those same dates.

It was the best country in the state. It was 66, 67. 67 may be the best unit in the state in 2019. The year before. Yeah, and then feels like... 2020 was nothing. That's right. Feels like maybe 54 and 55, I don't want to put them on a pedestal, Jason, but it feels like they had a little bit better reports come out of them this last year than the Southern Gunnison units. Yeah, a little better reports. Having said that, it's, you know, everybody's still waiting for it to be that next level, be the 2019 that, say, South of Gunnison had. So, anyway, definite potential in there. We get a lot of questions. It's a lot of fun. There's good access in a lot of that. There's quite a bit of private in parts of it, 66, 57.

554 has it, and, you know, all of them, really. But, for the most part, we've had guys ask about 551. Of the five Gunnison, 54, 55, 66, 67, 551, that seems to produce the least amount of big bucks that we've seen. And this has been over the course of 15 plus years, 20 years. Now, I'm sure there's a guy that knows about specific giants and might refute that. Having said that, honestly, it's produced the least amount as any of the units down there. Yeah, and it still feels like it does, you know, underachieved compared to those others. We have a lot of questions, Bronson, about 53, 52, 521, 63, 64, 65. I mean, we have a lot of questions about that country. It's been good. It's a good, definitely, you know, provides good hunts for guys. But it's hard to quantify those units, like, you're not, it's not gonna make, it's not gonna, you're not, you know,

it's nowhere we would send somebody that's gonna kill a 200-inch or how. However, there have been a few over the years. Yeah, it does fill in recent years. A 53 has been a heavily popular unit, public land unit, and it just feels like it's slipped and slipped and slipped. Now, 63 has a lot more private land, and so generally, I think we've seen a few better deer come off of that. A lot of them maybe are tied to or very near on private property. To some extent, the 52, 521 as well. If you get a lot of weather, those deer will move to the lower elevations of 521, 52, and that's heavily private land as well. So, 64, 65 to some extent as well. I mean, they have a lot of private land on lower elevations. So, late season hunts, you know, you might, unless you have a place to hunt or some access. More escapement in there. Tougher. Yeah.

That's right. We've also had like the 52, 521 as you talked about. I mean, there's private in there and whatnot, But there's some nasty, gnarly country, and there's just some escapement. There's a few older bucks, and there is definite big potential in there. But I rarely talk to a guy that hunted it that is looking forward to going back. That's kind of like the 41, 42, 421, the Grand Mesa. Giant numbers of tags. I mean... Good genetics. Probably the last 300-inchers come out of there. I mean, it was one of them. I mean, it's like, just goes to show Colorado can crank bucks out, but that's a unit that just tags poured to it, an opportunity hunt. You know, just an opportunity hunt, but it doesn't mean something good can't happen.

That's right. So, anyway, now let's go to Sawatch. Sawatch is basically, you know, south and a little bit east of Gunnison, and just right over the mountain range, basically. And it feels like Gunnison, they'll have die-off. They'll have heavy winters. Like, Gunnison's high elevation in and of itself, the town. And then you go over to the mountain, Swatch is high elevation, too. But for some reason, that mountain just shields it from the heavy snow. On the rain shadow, yeah. And you just, you get that whole Alamosa Valley. And all that country in there does well. They winter well in there. That country, though, the habitat does not look like deer habitat. It's a lot of yellow grass and trees. I mean, it just doesn't look like, that's not like gorgeous bitter brush, cliff rose. I mean, that's just the way it is. A lot of it goes from dark timber to the yellow grass.

And I think that is one of the benefits of some of that higher country. It would be super hard to hunt, but it does save some deer. And so, there is a chance of having some older age class bucks because they can hide out in that timber until late. Some of the best bucks in the state were killed in that country last year. And so, anyway, we know there's older age class bucks. It doesn't have the genetics, again, that say some of that Eagle Country 44 does, 35, 36. But they have older deer, and they killed a number of really good deer. There's some private in there you're gonna have to deal with a little bit, but there's so much public. A lot of good access, very easy to hunt, great potential, you know, but you're gonna also weed through, Chris, how many? 150, 160 inch deer. Yep. Just a lot of smaller deer. Maybe that's the case everywhere. Yeah. You know?

You got some of this country, Bronson, like this 82, 86, all that. No, thanks. No, I'm just saying that's a brutal range. I know. It's got some high country in it that years ago produced. That's right. Years ago it produced. Giant. And it still can. It feels like they do have some early high country stuff there. Frankly, if I was looking at a bigger If you had a bigger deer, I would probably look at those, just to be able to scout and hunt a deer earlier. It feels like... You would look for a bigger deer within those units, look at the early seasons. If I had looked at those units, yeah, I would look early, wouldn't you? I mean, personally. Yes, yes. Either that, or I might even consider, if you could draw the fourth season. A fourth, maybe, there. A fourth, this year where it's so late, you might have some of those timber bucks coming down.

And it is so much country from high to low there. It feels like a lot of range for deer to be caught up. If it's just a little bit of snow, they're not coming down. But yeah, so I'd say if you got a crushing snow, and it feels like those deer in 82 and 68, 79, 80, 81, they'll rut a little later in that valley. They do. They don't rut as early as other parts of Colorado. So, just because it hits November, everybody's like, ah, where's the rut? They still won't rut. I tell guys that I had a 79 fourth, and I saw zero rut until the very last day, and it was barely. There were three points on the does. And at 68, I killed a buck that was lip-curling, but it was on the fourth, dude. I mean, they do not, they do, and that's what I guess back to 21, 22, 10, up in Meeker. Oh, they rut early. They rut early, dude.

Well, and the Boatcliffs deer right across from Utah, they're rutting in the end of October. Yes. They'll start rutting. And remember, I killed that buck up there in 22, in 2018. Totally stupid. The first few days into November, I don't remember what it was, but within the first week. I'd have to look. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good rut. Dead rut. And there is no rut down there. So, there are, we talk about that to guys on the phone. I mean... This year, you might see it third season more so than you ever have on a third and fourth, potentially. But it takes a lot of points to draw those units in the fourth. But that's just something to keep in mind. All that country has a lot of high country on the east side of the Alamosa Valley. And it just comes right down to the foothills. Well, it's straight down.

That's right. It's kind of like the Wasatch Front, but maybe even on steroids more, right? It just goes even higher. But it looks like that in terms of, and then just drop. Now, there's not a million people at the foothill living there like there is in the Wasatch Front. I'm not trying to put it that way. The Wasatch also doesn't have 14,000 foot tanks. No, it doesn't. It goes higher, but also, it's very unpopulated. It doesn't have a lot of people there.

Well, it's got some sanding. It's some Badlands stuff out there, but like you said, there's a limited amount of winter range considering where they're all coming from. I don't know how to say that. There's a lot of open flats, too, but it's, you know. Anyway, okay, so you mentioned the late dates and how that would help 82 in some of that country, and you're 100% right. Conversely, we have a new four season in Unit 40, and we skipped over that a little bit, but those deer, Bronson, we know this well. Where they want to go. Dude, they go to Utah, a lot of them, at least on the west half of the unit, they'll migrate into Utah, and by the fourth, they might be in Utah. Done. Third, they might be. Well, yeah, and you're looking at, that's a unit. Like we said, five, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, that country, moving into Wyoming is another option. Probably... You got some of these 75, 77, 78.

There's a few of those with the super late dates. It may seem great to be hunting deer that time. You may be hunting tracks. I mean, you're going to have some deer, but you're going to be hunting trails that have left. You are. Just something to think about. You run that risk. I would be very cautious. There are certain people, I've talked it out of people this year on some of these units we've just thrown out for that very reason. A, you've got to remember the fourth season starts the day before Thanksgiving and goes till Sunday. It's a short five-day window. You're giving up your Thanksgiving and your family, and that may be great. Maybe you're taking your family, but a lot of people, when you tell them when it actually, the fourth season is, they're like, oh, I can't do that. I've got plans over Thanksgiving. Okay, we're done. Thanksgiving overrides that, and maybe should.

But it's also, you've got to think about this matching up the right unit. Now, there are a lot of units in the central part of Colorado with a lot of high country that, if you can draw a fourth, you could potentially hunt a buck that nobody's hunted all year long. It was a timber dweller, Chris. We've taught a lot of units, a lot. So many units in Colorado like that, and that's definitely possible in a year like this. But having said that, most of them take so many points to draw. Sometimes, I mean, let's take 35, 36. We bashed that one to death. It's a 15-point unit for a fourth, and you can draw it with zero on a third. Zero on a third on a year like this. So, I mean, are you gonna burn?

I mean, you run on that risk. I mean, for me, mentally, we get asked this a lot. Where do you burn your points? Well, I generally have a philosophy myself. You two, I guess, because we talk too much to each other. But I try to use my points somewhere where I only can draw certain tags. I'm never going to be able to find it. You can't fly your way in. I can't find a laner tag, and we don't buy expensive laner tags, but if you can't find one ever, the only way I'm ever going to hunt a unit is if I burn my points there. And that's what we've done the last couple times we've burned our points. And if you can, for me, it's kind of like those guys that can hunt the same time on an early muzzleloader or the early rifle with the same dates. You can go with zero to one point, or you're going to burn ten with a rifle. It's hard for me to burn ten with a rifle when I

I can go with zero with a muzzleloader. Now, I know you have a long-range rifle in your hands, but it's still mentally hard for me to burn 10 points where I could go with a muzzleloader the same seasons at the same time. I agree 100%. It's hard. And so, you want, with the points, you want preferential treatment. A, if you go fourth, the nice thing is you've got all the elk hunts are on a limited draw then. It's nice not to have over-the-counter elk hunters. And you have limited deer tag numbers. So, that's what you're getting. You're buying with your points. So, that's what you're getting on a 35. And you get a little bit later season dates, but they're cutting off a couple days. So, I don't know. Then, so we've covered a lot of that. I mean, it just, we kind of ground through it. You got the Eastern Plains, we have outfitters that work out there.

You can get landowner tags through those guys, or they're easy draws, meaning five or less points. You know, some of the late season, the December 1st, it has to take a little bit more depending on the unit. I've had a lot of that country down in the south, the very southeast portion, We mentioned that. 136, 137, 143, hunted some of that. 142, obviously, mentioned that. But we're having outfitters and guys all the way, all the way, clear up through the entire eastern portion of the state, doing well, depending on the unit and how their ranches are managed. And, you know, quality seems to come and go a little bit. The earlier seasons, these guys, they got wide open, wide open ag and whatnot, where they can glass and see them. It's not necessarily better in the rut. Sometimes when you go the December hunt, you're dealing with a lot of broken bucks.

It's just right at the end of the rut, and then you've got archery in November, and whatnot, and well, even longer than that. But anyway, you're dealing with the archery rut hunts and whatnot. Guys are doing well out there. If you get the right outfitter, you got a lot of wind, you bet them, you stalk them, you kill them. And they're also, the early rifle hunts are doing really well. They're catching them before they're broke up, and they're glassable. I'd say guys that want to go guided, that's a great option. If you got points, you want to go guided, get a tag. Even if you don't have many, many points. Everybody thinks of the December 1st rifle hunts when they go to the planes that want to hunt then, but a lot of times, they're broken up or they're tougher to kill sometimes. Sometimes that late October hunt was zero to two points.

Another thing to talk about, you mentioned outfitters, Chris. Oh, I knew we were going there. We have to talk about it. Why is Colorado so hard to find an outfitter? BLM and forest permits are just a problem. That's the way that they allocate BLM and forest permits to guides and outfitters is as unlike any other state. It's criminal. It really is. It's criminal. It's not like other states where you can have an outfit or an outfittering business that operates in, you know, 10 to 20 units or more throughout the state, you know, Utah, Nevada, Arizona, and have guys that they hired that they do these three or four units, and these guys do these two or three units. You get your areas in Colorado, and you can buy multiple areas, and there's a few people that have two or three areas around the state, but they still do about three units.

And it's unbelievable. They don't issue a statewide BLM or individual BLM permits all over. It's more like a concession. A Forest Service permit is more like a concession. And if that guy takes over-the-counter elk hunters, and that's what he's done his whole life, and he doesn't really specialize in deer, maybe he doesn't even take deer hunters. Yeah, because he can take elk over the counter and book them nonstop, but the deer take 10 points. I don't want to deal with guys and points. I just want to take my elk, guys. And they value elk. They come from back in the day. They kind of value elk. They're bread and butter. Guys from the eastward come to elk. That's why you go to Colorado, for the numbers, right? And so, it's a tough state, and I guess just to maybe not belabor a dead horse, but if you're thinking of using an outfitter, it might already be too late.

I don't want to squelch your hopes and dreams, but the predictable nature of when you know or very on the verge of drawing a Colorado deer tag allows you to book a hunt with an outfitter and know. It's not a Nevada random chance. If you have 15 points and you're going to apply for a seven-point unit, go ahead and pay that outfitter deposit. Yeah, you're going to go. But if you have seven points and it took seven points, probably wouldn't pay that outfitter deposit. And guys have been doing it for the last year or two, Carter, because they've been seeing the dates I'm going to book for 2021. And this happens for, I know we're switching to elk, but it happens for elk and other things because of what we're talking about. 61, 40. Finite numbers of tags. That's right.

You know when you're going to draw. Guys are in line in a queue, basically. You're going in 2021. I got all my guys for 2022 booked. It's very common. And now, there's always a few people that maybe mess up applications, don't draw, they should have drawn, whatever. But it's a tough state. Fortunately for a lot of Colorado, if you've hunted mule deer enough, it's a great state also. There's a lot of options to just go draw a tag, take a camp, or stay in a motel, do your hunts, base it up, and just do public land hunts. It's a blast. I love hunting there with my kids, you know, my wife. We have a great time over there. It's just awesome. You get to see a lot of game with ease, so to speak, with ease. They've got great season dates that allow them to be somewhat vulnerable, easy to find, easy to glass, kids are seeing game, and tags are easy to come by.

I mean, there's not a year, if you want to hunt Colorado, there's not a year you can't go. That's the bottom line. And simply put, you can apply for second and third choice tags, fourth choice tags to get a leftover and still gain a point. If you don't draw your first, if you draw your second through fourth, you're going to gain a point and you get a tag. Later on, you can turn it back for a refund. I mean, there's options. And so, you should always hunt Colorado. I guess that's the point of this. Wanted to kind of go over everything, because we're getting ready to consult on it for a solid 30 days. 30 days, pretty heavy. One thing we get asked quite a bit in Colorado, too, is, you know, I'm going to apply for it, and can I withdraw it later on? You can't. We got that question a couple times this week. You can withdraw or modify your application up until April 6th, then you're in.

Some states allow you to do that later, you know, after that deadline for a period of time. Colorado's April 6th. If you apply and want to change it, you can do that. The other thing though, this year, Jason's kind of nice. They moved the draw results up about a week or 10 days maybe. It used to be about 5th of June or something like, first week of June. That played into Wyoming, deer and antelope draw, and Idaho, right? And people would not have their Colorado results back in time before they had to apply for those, which are normally, you know, June 5th in Idaho or, you know, May 31st, June 1st in Wyoming. This year, it'll be May 24th through the 28th. They basically do one species a day. They don't always tell you what order they're doing it in, but they got what? Deer, elk, antelope, bear, moose, right? Yep, they'll all come up. They'll just come up one at a time.

One day. We're all checking, checking, checking. Anyway. And so, you're gonna know that before some of those other states. Wyoming deer. Wyoming deer and Idaho deer are great, kind of last minute. June 5th. Get them applied. So, that's another, I guess, bone we got through. Yeah, it's kind of cool. I think it's great. So, everybody in this room. On the heels of, say, Arizona elk, who's still not charging my car. Are they charging yours, Bronson? No. I don't think they have a computer that can do it. Well, they may have a computer, but they don't have a programmer that can make it happen. I don't know. They don't have computers talking. They're struggling for a minute. The computers aren't talking. We like Arizona. We like the people there. We work with the Game and Fish. Having said that, it's a little bit tough this year to get results out and get the cars charged.

Well, they're just forcing us to use their portal system, and I just think it was just a little getting the cart before the horse. Having said that, we should be knowing results soon, and you guys as well. We want to talk to you. We also, you know, if you draw a tag, we can help you find an outfitter, speaking of Arizona, or any other states that come out. Or we can also send you a list of members who've hunted your unit in the past. We have a membership experience program here at Epic Outdoors for those of you that are paying members. Yep, that's all included in the $100 membership as well. So, use it. If you draw a tag, give us a call if you need a member experience list or an outfitter suggestion. We've vetted them, we've used them for years, we know who's producing them, we know who's continually on top of their A-game. We sell optics here at Epic Outdoors. If you need anything,

Swaro, Vortex, Leica, Zeiss, Six Hour, give us a holler. Our prices will not be beat. Bronson and I, Wyatt, Devin, any of us can quote you a price on optics, and like I say, there's nobody out there that'll do better. So, anyway, give us a holler. We've got a lot of stuff in stock. We've stockpiled some legit, serious optics in-house to be able to help service our membership. Meet the COVID demands. I also want to give a quick shout out to MOA Rifles. They've got an awesome setup. Yeah. I used a little Sheila myself, and she's a shooter, tack driver. Love it. 6.5 PRC, great packing gun.

I think it's funny. Why don't we ever name guns boy names? Gus. Well, is it kind of like an old truck? Is it an old Betsy or something like that? Yeah, it's never a boy name. Never Chuck. Here's my Jeep truck. Maybe it is, but I don't know. Yeah, meet Chuck. I did have a client that'd say, oh, meat in the pot. I always wish she speaks. Meat in the skillet. There's meat in the pot. Meat in the skillet. I've heard that. I don't know. Anyway, talk about Sheila. No, I did. Awesome. Awesome rifle. Well-built. Bob Beck and the guys up there know what they're talking about. Build you a great rifle. Check them out, MOARifles.com or call them 541-526-1820. Check them out. Also, we got our good buddy Cheston Davis. He runs PhoneScope and Pyro Putty. He's a good dude over there. He's just continually making new items and going crazy over there.

Keeping up with all the different phones that are coming out. By the way, I got a new 12. I had to learn how to use phones all over again. Yeah. Why? Because there's no home button. Just little things like that tick me off. Have you got a phone scope for it yet? No, he says he's making me one soon. So, anyway, he's a good dude over there. Phone scope guys, we know a lot of the different employees. They're serious hunters. They know what they're doing. And, you know, anymore, we're all videoing through our phones. I mean, that's how you, if you don't video, it didn't happen. So, anyway, Phonescope, P-H-O-N-E-S-K-O-P-E, or go to www.pyropuddy.com. You can Google these things, search them on Instagram, Facebook, I don't know, 14 other apps, probably, and be able to purchase products from them. Super good people, great products, stuff we use every day.

Last shout out we want to give is to Vortex. We're also a dealer for them, as we've been mentioning. They've been a long-time supporter and advertiser for us here. Not only for their optics, but they're also ramping up their tripod game. And we've got some of those in stock. Some of their carbon fiber backpacking, like their Summit Carbon 2s. Got those in stock. Got some Ridgeviews carbons. And if you're looking for a tripod to upgrade or for whatever application, give us a call. Check us out and we'll give you a quote on the tripod that you're looking for based on backpacker. We ordered some of those Summits knowing they'd be in high demand. You know, Bronson, we've got a lightweight backpacking-type tripod, which is exactly what this is with the Summit Carbon 2. But it's not made anymore, and it's 15 years old, and if the leg breaks, we're screwed. Yeah, that's right. We're done.

Anyway, that comes with a head and a plate, all inclusive. I mean, we're talking much under $400 as a whole package. They sell it as what they're calling a kit, and it's awesome. It's small, it's compact, it's light. We've already sold multiple kits, sent them out the door. We had them. We didn't even have them priced in our shop. And I'm like, holy cow, people are calling on them. I think it's super hard to find a backpackable tripod that's

It's worth having. You'll see if you got a March issue of the magazine yet, or it's on the e-mag, you can see the inside back cover. You'll see an ad for the tripods there, but you can also go to Vortex, V-O-R-T-E-X.com as well. Find out more information about them. Probably not a column. Look at the specs, weights, all that, you know, all the weight sensitive guys. Weight sensitive. Well, pack. I like that. Yeah, for when you pack. I'm not talking about your body weight. Everything's all about weight. Everything. Huh? Cutting off toothbrush handles.

We're talking rifles, tripods, it doesn't have massive gear. I don't know, everything's about weight. Cattle. Cattle. Cattle. Cattle weight. What else? Steaks. Everything. Everything's about weight. Hey, all right. And the older I get, if it's in my pack, weight matters. Weight matters. That's right. All right, we're gonna leave with that. Weight matters, everybody.