EP 197: Getting in the Game with PNWild

The old-time guys that I looked up to just said it wasn't possible. There's somewhere that's these dear dine of old age. Glassing tips and techniques. Everyone just says glass, but what is truly glassing? Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Welcome to another episode of the Epic Outdoors podcast. This is Chris Peterson, as always, brought to you by Under Armour. We want to thank them for their support. Today we've got something a little bit different coming your way. We had the guys over at the PN Wild podcast give us a call. We did a podcast with them. They wanted to quiz Jason about big mule deer, big elk, and all things Western big game. We decided to share that with you guys today. It just provides a little bit different perspective into what we do here at Epic Outdoors. We thought you'd enjoy it. Take it away, guys. Well, today, I know we say it every time, and I think it's just like a broken record now, but a couple very special guests, Mr. Jason Carter and Chris Peterson from Epic Outdoors.

We're going to chat about Epic and kind of hopefully dive into mule deer. I'll just kind of curl up in a ball and listen to Jason talk about giant mule deer, I guess. Thanks for jumping on, guys. Hey, no problem. Thanks for having us on. Yeah, guys. So, Jason and Chris, you guys want to introduce yourself and kind of let our listeners know, our audience know we're primarily, you know, Western Washington, and I'm sure we have listeners all over the place. But primarily, we got our group is our main group of listeners is probably from the Washington State, and you guys are down in Utah and kind of just cover the entire West looking for big critters. So, if you could, just introduce yourself to our listeners and kind of give a background leading into what you guys do for a living over there at Epic. You bet. So, Jason Carter here, Epic Outdoors, currently at Epic Outdoors.

We own Epic with a couple of good buddies of mine. And anyway, been just hunting for years and years and years. I grew up southern Utah, went to college in northern Utah, graduated in finance, but kind of odd, never did much with it. Just loved killing stuff. So, anyway, my dad was a game and fish warden and biologist and whatnot, retired after 20 years. And so, I just grew up with that background, and we hunted all the West, all over, all kinds of states, you know, as I was growing up. So, anyway, we went into a business. He started hunting fool over there back in the day. And anyway, I jumped on board within, I don't know, less than a year. Wasn't it, Chris? Yeah. Less than a year after I graduated college and then just cranked on that. Fast forward 2012.

You know, we ended up separating family business and whatnot. I cranked with Under Armour. We did Ridge Reaper. Chris was my videographer there. And he accompanied me on virtually every hunt I did. Oh, what was it, Chris? 2012 through? 15. Well, that was the show, when the show ran. Yeah. 15. So, anyway, we, I don't know, we did 15 to 20 western hunts. And Chris was over my shoulder. And, of course, he hunted his own stuff, too. Got together with my partners, John Peterson, Adam Bronson, 2016. We started Epic Outdoors. And, which basically, we just help guys get tags, man. We apply people. We talk about all the western states, drawing on skill percentages, best units, do a ton of research. Chris is here as well. Chris, you can kind of lead off on your stuff here in just a sec. But, to lead in, Chris, here at Epic Outdoors, is responsible for all of our digital stuff.

Continues to video, take photos, deals with social media. He's a killer. You know, accompanies us on a lot of hunts and whatnot. A huge asset here at Epic Outdoors. So, anyway, go ahead, Chris. Yeah. We just, I've been around for quite a while. It feels like 2007, I believe. I started there at Huntin' Full as well. And, left also in 2012 and started filming the Ridge Reaper show with Jason. And, it's been a fun ride. That's awesome. Yeah, I remember, you know, Huntin' Full got its name. Garth had Huntin' Full pinstriped on the sides of his truck. And, my mom and I were sitting around and we're like, we're going to call this place Huntin' Full. Guide to Western Big Game Hunting. So, anyway, it used to be, they used to call it the newsletter. And, Carter's Hunter Services. So, anyway, that's going back a long time.

Yeah, so your guys' family has just been, it sounds like, just involved in the hunting industry. Maybe not the industry, but just hunting from a very long time. And, it is kind of like a family affair. And, you guys just fell in love with it. And, now it's how you guys make a paycheck, which is incredible. Well, and it pretty much always has been. We did, we were making game calls and selling them to Cabela's and Bass Pro Shop, Sportsman's Guide. I mean, we're talking 80s. And, that was with Huntin' Full? No, that was way before that. Wow. I didn't even know that. Way before that. Yeah. So, look up Garth Carter Hunter Services. We sold, I don't know, like 31 different SKUs, like diaphragms, rattling bags for whitetails, electronic grunt calls, electronic trapping lures. Wow. All kinds of stuff.

So, yeah, it's been, I mean, and there was, you know, a lot of contacts and relationships built with the buyers over there. A lot of these different companies and whatnot. And so, anyway, then went to book and hunts. I mean, I was in college, a summer job working, booking hunts for Dunn's Magazine, just booking as a booking agent. So, I mean, this goes way back. Wow. So, anyway, a lot of history there. Yeah, that's crazy. Very cool. I actually, that's how I first started. I found when I started getting into big game hunting is actually I found the Ridge Reaper television show. So, whatever happened, that just obviously, like, just fell apart or didn't happen. And I've tried to look up for DVDs because I was like, oh, my God, some of those episodes were just incredible. I'd love to rewatch those because that was, I don't know what now, probably eight, nine years ago.

But I figured, like, oh, I've reached out a couple times to even Under Armour, tried to find the DVDs on their pages. And that show was amazing. So, that's why I was just trying to find some DVDs and stuff. Well, yeah, when you mentioned Fall Apart, I mean, it's not, it's kind of by design. I mean, they, we cranked on it. It was awesome. You know, had a huge response for it. Really set up a lot of showcasing of their products and whatnot. But with YouTube coming on and social media heavy and whatnot, there was just a cheaper way to do it. So, you know, you can go on the Outdoor Channel, pay for airtime. You got to deal with all these supplementary incomes to be able to offset some of those costs, production expenses, all of these things. Or you can just film yourself and go on YouTube. And you don't have to be dealing with it 22 minutes.

You can, you don't have to be dealing with all the parameters that they like to put on you as far as ethical killing, what they think is ethical on the Outdoor Channel versus what I want to put on YouTube. Yeah. I want to put whatever I want to put on there. Yeah. You know, and they want to put on what they want to put on and they can control it. And then when there's no, you know, less money involved, you don't have to deal with other people and other partners. And that gives you freedom. Yeah. And so anyway, you can still go on there. They're still, you know, as far as I know, they were putting out other things with other athletes. They were, of course, they're dealing with fishing. They're dealing with all kinds of the big game hunting, not just Western big game. And so this allowed them to spread the budget and allow them to showcase all kinds of things.

And with big corporate companies, you know, you're dealing, you got to answer people and budgets answer to people. And so, you know, there was a large portion of the budget allocated to Western big game when that was their focus. And then as people change and they change and whatnot and evolve and different things and technology evolves and whatnot, it just evolved. And it was kind of a natural evolution for myself, you know. Absolutely. Everybody thinks you want to be videoed. I mean, you know, I didn't harvest certain game animals because of the video. And it's not because of Chris. It's because of, you know, maybe there's four other Chris's there. Yeah. All of which I didn't grow up with. Like Chris and I, we can hunt together and kill stuff. But when you're dealing with a camp of it and it just changes the dynamic of the hunts. And it served its purpose. It's awesome.

We still have a relationship with those guys at Under Armour. And they still support Epic Outdoors heavily. They're, you know, an integral piece of what we have going on here. The, you know, with that particular, you know, the Ridge Reaper series, that served its purpose in time. But it is a piece of history. However, you're not going to get the episodes. They won't come out with those on a DVD or a downloadable form. I don't see that ever happening. I've, we've tried to have it. They own the rights to that. Yeah. I do have them. But, you know, they're for me and my family and whatnot. Dang, that was cool. I mean, I loved the show. It was very awesome. Did you have a hand in the, in the pattern that Under Armour came out with? The Ridge Reaper pattern? Or was that kind of out of your, did you have input on that?

Well, I remember we were out in Maryland and, and Jason was out on the front porch with their camo designer. And, and he definitely had a hand in it and kind of gave him his opinion on, on what they could do different. And it kind of evolved. There were a few different patterns and it eventually ended up being what it is today. Wow. Yeah. They, I mean, I'm an opinionated guy. Sure. And so, and that's the only way that's Under Armour. Those guys are very opinionated and that's why they're very aggressive. Those guys are still good friends of mine today anyway, but we're all very opinionated and aggressive. And that's what, that's what makes good companies. Absolutely. Good, good products. You know, they didn't accept no for an answer. You know, whatever the situation was. But when they came out with a course, I'm going to voice my opinion. I want them to be successful.

If they're successful, we're successful. I'm a big fan of that Under Armour, that camo pattern, but I've never tried it to tell you the truth. Yeah. Me neither. Well, so you're just saying it looks good and you want to wear it. Yeah. No, it looks really good. I love the pattern for sure. I wear Under Armour for like working out and stuff, but I've never worn their like hunting gear. Yeah. Well, you should try it. Totally. Yeah. I imagine if their workout gear is good, it's a cool piece. I feel like we always, you know, there are some Western patterns out here, most of which were friends with these guys in the industry and whatnot, and even partners with some of these different clothing companies. I do like the Baron camo. It was just a natural here in the West. And I think, I mean, people, I feel like, and it's not like a fashion show out here, but I do feel like that people will wear it.

If the camel pattern's awesome, you know, the product can be awesome. It can be good. It can be less than good or whatever. People still wear it. People like the pattern was infectious, contagious. People liked it. Yeah. They gravitated toward it and, and, uh, their gear has come leaps and bounds and it's, it's awesome. And, and, and, you know, you definitely ought to try it. But having said that, it is an awesome pattern, especially for here in my kind of country, Chris's kind of country down here. And, you know, the, the desert arid portions of, you know, Utah, Nevada, Arizona. They also do have the forest pattern. So that's more fitting to where you're at. Yeah. And they've, uh, evolved that this year, kind of, uh, put a new spin on it. So if you look for that, that's probably something that would fit for your area. Yeah, absolutely.

Took it up, took it up there to Alaska on a black bear hunt and whatnot. And we were just in the middle of jungle type terrain and it was incredible. And, and, and I'm not just saying that cause, cause they pay us. Uh, it's, I mean, we do a lot of things, you know, for free and, uh, we're not just you know, we're not just paid, although we, everybody needs money to live. Yeah, absolutely. It's, uh, you know, it's, I mean, they're, it's a significant product. It's great camel pattern. They make great products. Yeah. While we're on the subject of camel, I had loved to hear your opinion about it. Do you think it makes all the difference in the world across, uh, the species kind of for like, say archery elk or, uh, archery mule deer? Do you think camel has a huge, uh, say in whether you're going to be successful or not?

Oh, debatable. Yeah. I think it, I think it does like on archery and things like that. I think it does. It's just like, you can, you know, if you were looking out there, you could, you know, you can see a dark blob or you can see something that kind of, kind of meshes in. Um, if you're in the rut for mule deer or something, I mean, dude, people are killing big deer with bright orange. Yeah, exactly. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And so I think it just depends if you're going to have a close encounter, you know, obviously, I mean, people are wearing, uh, you know, face nets and things. I mean, you know, I mean, it's, they, they work. There's no question. And sometimes it just takes the shine off your face or whatever you want to, whatever your opinion is. Yeah. Um, but having said that I've been close to animals without camel. Um, but I, I do feel like it makes a difference.

And even if it's just, even if it's largely a mental difference for me, if I feel stealthy, you know, uh, then I may act a little more stealthy, you know what I mean? And it just placebo effect, whatever. But it, I do feel like it makes a difference. Now, obviously you're in the rut with a rifle in Colorado or something. I mean, I hate orange. I hate it. I'll crest a Ridge and every animal will look at me. I know, I know why that happens. Um, you know, but, but having said that, I, I, I do think it makes a difference, but I'm not saying it makes a difference in every scenario. My, my dream is to kill a freaking monster and, uh, you know, plaid and take an old time photo, throw the gun in the rack and not extend my arms for the photo and just, you know, have it be a freaking slot. That's funny. You know that I just finished your podcast.

Mike Dupland and you guys were talking about the fisheye effect. Yeah. Yeah. You see everybody, everybody does it nowadays. Like you tilt that nose forward and it grows another 10 inches wide. Oh, a hundred percent. Well, yeah. And if you tilt your, your phone a little bit and whatnot, but I mean, everybody likes to, you know, likes their photos to look good. That's normal. We'd print good looking photos. It's like that. We're in the business to print good looking photos. Yeah. Um, it's maybe gone a little too far. I mean, you know, when you see a before and after this, here's the deer alive, here's the deer dead. It's, it's shocking when you've got a, you know, a 23 inch or that's now, you know, you know, looks like he's 29 or 30 and it, and it's, and then they legitimately look monster and they're not necessarily, but I think that's everything. And that's women doing it.

There's apps made to make them look good. There's apps made to look for everything in the world. It doesn't even matter. Not necessarily hunting. It's just morphed into our industry and it's can at times can be offensive. You know, you've got a guy that killed a legit slob, 210 inch, whatever, you know, four by five was sick mass. And, and maybe you've got a, a deer that's 183 inch or whatever great buck in its own right, but can, can look 220 or something. And it's legitly happened. That's what's going on. But having said that, I mean, guys, a outfitters like to book hunts. You're not going to book hunts on, you know, you know, taking a hundred percent realistic photos at times. And then you've got other outfitters doing it. And so you've got to compete. I understand the outfitting industry. I also understand hunters want to look good. They want their animals to look good.

I get all that. I mean, we're, we're no different. Yeah. That's what social media is. It's just everybody's highlight reel. Yeah. It's crap. Social media is fricking crap. I mean, you know, nobody's going to post and say, I suck today. My hunt sucked. I sucked. I had a bad day. Yeah. Yeah. The highlight reel, man. Right. And so anyway, it's, it's all good. It's just, it's just gone a little far. And I think everybody, everybody feels that way, but it's not going to, it's not really going to change. Yeah. So on the topic of big bucks, would you guys say you're mostly known, you as hunters, mostly known for mule deer hunters? Well, maybe, but I don't know. You've got Adam in our office. He's my partner. He's, I mean, he's guided a grumble of freaking desert sheep. I don't know, maybe over a hundred. You know what I mean? And he's killed a slam. I've technically killed a slam.

I mean, I've killed a real light fan and sheep. I want a freaking dark, good looking, gorgeous, you know, stone sheep and killed a couple of deserts and whatnot. So, I mean, we've, we've spent our time doing other things, killed multiple three 80 plus bulls and, and, and whatnot. I would love to kill a 400 inch straight six, um, you know, for bull, but it was pretty freaking hard to do. And guys that guys say, you know, killing a book non-typical is the hardest thing in the world to do or killing a whatever, you know, go try to kill a book bull. Go try to do it. Go put one in the book. You know, you can't even hardly get tags. Whereas deer tags are plentiful. You can get deer tags. You can go hunting mule deer. I, I, I went, I had seven deer tags last year. Okay. You can't hardly get seven elk tags unless you're just truly doing an over the counter. Oh, that's pretty, pretty tough.

And one of the things, if you look back, uh, Jason guided some extremely big bulls, um, back when he was guiding a lot, um, one of them, what was goofy for 34, 34, five by eight at four 34 and a, what state was that? Yeah. What state were you heading in Jason? That was Utah. Okay. Don't look at those photos. I look like I was 15, but anyway, that was back in, you know, uh, 2003, 2002. I videoed that bull and it was in a, uh, 2002 was a drought year and he's freaking bigger. Uh, giant fifths on both sides. It's 2003 the next year, you know, one inch fifth on one side is a five point on the one side went four 34 and then the same hunter killed a four 24. But anyway. Yeah. So I'd say, I'd say Jason is known for mule deer, but it's not like he hasn't killed his share of, of big elk and other species too. Other species. Yeah. It's just dude. So why mule deer Jason?

Like why did it, was it because primarily growing up in Utah, they didn't really have the elk until later, uh, or was it just something about mule deer that just did you in? Like, why do you focus? Well, I mean, I always 35 inch eight by eight with triple igards pipe mass. I mean, that was what I always wanted. And when you, and when you, you think about these deer about the time I became capable and let's just say, let's just say early twenties, you're starting to become capable. You can get lucky prior to then and you can get lucky, but you're just starting to become capable. It takes another 10 to 15 years to really figure it out and get rolling. But it was, it was tough. And back then it was before social media. You've had a few of the magazines, trophy hunter Eastman's. I got them both. You got to look at, look at some of these deer and it was a, let's call it the high,

the, the Instagram highlight reel on paper. And, and you look at that and, and you saw them, but I'd never seen one in my life. I've never, I look at these deer cover photos, story photos, things like that. And then the old time guys that I looked up to just said it wasn't possible. It's not possible. And, uh, you know, that was the good old days are gone and, and whatnot. Uh, and I just kept saying to myself, there's somewhere there's these deer dying of old age. There's somewhere they're dying of old age. They don't all get killed. Yeah. Where are they dying of old age? That's where I need to be. I need to be where they're dying of old age and where they have potential with genetic. And, and then I can need to go and guide in places I can go back for myself again and again and again, because you, you're learning.

So, you know, I, when I, when I started guiding and whatnot, um, I, I started heavy. In Nevada. And, and it's because there's landowner tags and you can draw a little easier than the Arizona strip. If I just go guide on the Arizona strip where they make giants, it feels like every freaking day, you know, that's fine. I get to guide these guys, but I'm gonna have one tag of my life. You know what I mean? And so, yeah, I get to put my hands on other people's deer and I get to, and that's cool. There's, I'm amazing deer there. The guides are first class. They know what they're doing. They're hardcore. They're aggressive. I have all the respect in the world for those guys, but it just wasn't for me. Cause I knew the end goal, the end goal was not to guide for the rest of my life. The end goal is Jason wants to kill giants. And although I'm guiding because I need to is supplemented my income.

It helped me grow, help me learn. And I got to do it with a, with a checkbook that was from my guide business and it helped my marriage stay intact. And you know what I mean? And so I got to go scout with a company checkbook because I had clients and that helped me be out and spend the time out. And so anyway, I did it out there. There's very conservatively managed. Once in a while, you'd see a freaking giant. It's an hour and a half from the house here. It's managed. It's, it's tightly managed. Some of the best units in the state are close to me. Whereas Utah is over the counter general back then and not necessarily managed. And I'm not going to get a Ponce got tagged very often. And the Henry mountains wasn't the Henry mountains back then, but, but Hey, that type of hunt wasn't realistic, but Nevada, I could make it happen with time.

If I spend enough time, I spent enough years in a row, I can kill them. And I, and I, and I killed a lot of 200 inches in Nevada and guided them. And that was all because of that. So, you know, I mean, that's kind of what, what made me and maybe the concentrating on mule deer was the fact that they were rare. They're still rare, but we get to see the highlighted reel on Instagram. And so we don't think they're rare, but they are, you know, and, uh, compared to the thousands, hundreds of thousands of tags out there, you're seeing 20 amazing deer or 30, you know? And so anyway, they're quite special. And I think back then I just was like, how am I going to get my hands on deer that are just before they die of old age? How am I going to get my hands on Coke can bases and triple eye guards? Yeah. So since you said it first, you said the magic number, you said 200.

So how many bucks over 200 inches have you killed?

Gag. I don't want to talk about that because people, I don't want to, I, you're not tooting your own horn. We're just curious. No, I don't want to talk about it. I don't, I don't want to talk about it. You know, I actually have, there's clients we have, they, you know, and they're competitive guys. We're all competitive. Every guy's competitive, but anyway, Jason, so it's just crazy. Well, John, so John, Chris's brother, John made me add them up one time we were doing, we're trying, you know, getting Epic up and going. And we had, we, of course you got to advertise and, and talk about accomplishments. People don't want to affiliate with somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about. Part of that is your hunting accomplishments. You know, you can be the best businessman in the world, but if you haven't excelled in the field, he wants to hear what you have to say. Exactly. Yeah.

You know, so anyway, but it's, I've, I've killed over 20 for sure. Cool. So, you know, low twenties. That's crazy, man. Before we get too far away from just the title of Epic, I'd love for our listeners to kind of get a better idea. So if someone, is it a subscription based thing or is it basically just a member on a group or how does someone go apart of being, becoming a part of the Epic Outdoors? And then what kind of services could they expect? So right now is a perfect time for people to kind of dive in. Did they, we missed the, the Epic draws though, right? There's, those are all done, wrapped up. Yeah. It's done and over with there, but as far as our membership drive. And so anyway, I'm going to take a drink of this green monster. I'm going to let Chris take over for a minute. So we have a yearly membership.

It's a hundred dollars a year and our members have access to full-time consultants, which to me is the most valuable thing that you can have. If you're thinking about putting in, in any unit, in any Western state, you can say, well, I've got seven points, let's say in Colorado. And you, you've got a, cause Colorado is coming up here shortly, but you can call in and ask somebody who knows and say, Hey, I've got these seven points. These are my expectations. Um, what do you think would work best for me? Or maybe, maybe it's a guy that likes to hike. Maybe it's a guy that's, um, archery only things like that. And you can run that past somebody who knows and who does it for a living. Yeah. The consultants are able to help guys and kind of tailor what they need. And that, that to me is the most valuable part of the membership, but we also have a monthly

magazine and we'll break down all the States and go through and, and just teach people. So for instance, you, you, you mentioned earlier that a lot of your guys were new hunters. Yep. And to me, this is, this is an invaluable resource. If you're a new hunter, you can go through and look through each state in the West and it will tell you all about each state, how their draw process works, um, how their point systems works, or if they, if they have a point system. Um, and also the rules and regulations, things you need to know, things you need to be aware of. And then they'll go through and pick the top units in for archery, muzzleloader rifle. And, and you can go through and select what you think fits for you. And each, each unit has a little description, tells you what you can expect and gives a breakdown of how many points it takes to draw. Um, typically, and you can just learn so much.

There's so much information there and I don't ever apply without looking at the magazine. I work here, but I still, every time I apply, I go back to the magazine and I, I select, okay, what are my top three choices? And I'll go through the magazine and I'll look at each one of those choices. And I come up with a better decision and say, okay, this is what I think. And then I'll take that over to Jason and Adam and I'll say, Hey, this is what I'm thinking about applying for. What do you guys think? And then I'll get their feedback from there. It's just a, it's just a great resource. Absolutely. And that to me is the core of what we do, but we also have a whole bunch of other species as well. So it's, it's a, it's not just mule deer or just elk. We can, we can go in there and look and say, I'm, I'm really want to draw on a sheep tag or a mountain goat or moose. You guys cover multi-species.

Oh yeah. Yeah. It's all things Western big game hunting. So we have landowner tags. We have a booking agency. Basically we got Devin here in the office. He'll, he'll deal with guys that are looking to book hunts with guaranteed tags or maybe it's on the draw or whatever. And so he's constantly maintaining openings with our outfitters. We got Wyatt here. He's dealing with licensed app service. So we apply guys kind of like a tax accountant does your taxes. Yeah. Um, you, you're still liable for the tax burden. You're still liable for, uh, everything that goes on, but maybe they just file it for you. We choose units for guys that want us to do that and we file it for them. They'll get their own tags. They get their own refunds. They get, if they want to go self-guided, that's fine. Whatever's best for them. So Chris mentioned we're monthly. We are monthly December through June.

Then we're bi-monthly in the fall. And that was by design. We came from, you know, uh, back in the day where we were doing it every single month. And in the fall, there's not a lot going on. And I mean, there's some point only deadlines and, you know, Texas and maybe Arizona bison. There's a few things going on, but that we capture that in the bi-monthly. Um, but we're out in the field and that's the one thing I think, um, I don't want to say sets us apart. There's a lot of good, good dudes out there in our industry that are working hard and consulting and, and, you know, you know, know their portion, whatever they've done. They obviously know what they're doing. Um, but having said that we're in the field nonstop, this is all we do. We live for it. Um, on personal time or work time. I mean, Chris, you know, he didn't talk about all the things he kills, but he kills a ton of game.

He's killed some big deer, big elk and whatnot. And, and yet he's, he's kind of behind the scenes dealing with the social stuff and, and all the digital stuff and whatnot. And he talks about coming and visiting with us, but there's things he's doing. And he ain't telling us about, I promise you. So he's got a whole agenda going on. So that's all good. It's all good. Yeah. Well, while we're on the topic of points and stuff, just for, um, fellers like Bob and I, who, you know, we have, uh, less than 10 points in Washington cause we're just getting started, but around the West, like we haven't even started in some States. Is it even like at the point system we are right now? Is it, I mean, I don't want to say, is there a point, but is there a point for, you know, like me and Bob applying for sheep out of state and are, are we ever going to catch that?

Or is it basically just don't even waste your money and just go for Idaho? Go ahead. Yeah. Catch it, catch it. That's definitely a relative term. And lots and lots and lots of people ahead of you guys. Having said that, like I drew Arizona desert, 22 points, uh, on paper, I shouldn't have ever drawn it. I got, I got lucky. There's every year we have members that draw stuff with a lot less points than that. And so I think if it's something that's important to you, then by all means you should do it. However, there is the term throwing good money after bad. Um, so to speak, maybe, maybe there's some things you don't do. You know what I mean? Yeah. I've drawn an Oregon sheep tag. Didn't require any points. My odds were like one in 409 or something. It was a first year John day, you know, was open for us to apply for a kill a Cali. Gotcha. 174 incher. Dang. Yeah. Yeah. It was awesome. Right.

But I should never have on paper. I should never, never, uh, drawn that tag. However, I applied for it. And sometimes I tell people not to apply for Oregon. How, but I drew right. So I'm walking proof that that happens. Um, having said that, I just think there's some, there's some States that don't make sense. I've got the max points in Montana for sheep, right? I want to kill. I want to put my hands on 190 plus inch rim. How else am I going to do that? Yeah. Um, you know, I'm not going to ever buy one. I'm not going to ever buy a tag, a governor's tag to go do it. So I do it. That's my name in the hat. There's guys out there that, you know, their mantra is you got to have your name in the hat somewhere. You get, if your name's not in the hat, you're not going to draw. Honestly, it just depends on your budget. It depends on your wife, you, it depends on what's important to you.

Everybody's different. If yeah, everybody's different. And what I do doesn't necessarily mean you should be doing it. However, um, if you're applying Nevada for elk and deer, you should be doing sheep. You know what I mean? Like it's, we're talking, I mean, less than 20 bucks and you're in same thing with, uh, whether it be Utah, Arizona, whatever, you don't even have to front the tag fees. So why not? Right. All the while you're gaining points and, and it's not, you just never look at those are things you do and you don't say, you don't say, when am I going to get it? You just say, I'm going to apply again. Right. I draw, but I'm not planning on it. And you make plans in other places with deer and elk and things you can control. And, um, and then when those tags come, they're gifts and, and, uh, you're thankful for them and you make them bet, but you make the most.

And so I'm, I apply for moose and goat and sheep and elk and, you know, I hunted elk last year. I mean, in, in Arizona, and that's another thing, like there's things guys would say, well, Arizona elk, you know, I don't have 20 plus points. It doesn't make sense. You know, yeah, it doesn't make sense for the early rifle bull in the top three units. You're right. That doesn't make sense. But there's a lot of things you can do to go hunting in Arizona. I went on a late archery, generally takes five to six points to draw it. I point boosted my buddy.

Uh, maybe not the smartest thing I've ever done. I like my buddy, but it wasn't a great hunt, but you know what I'm saying? I mean, I could have used those points here in three, four years. I'd have a great archery tag and maybe an up and coming unit. Some of these units were researching that maybe aren't known for giants, but I'd be able to go. So Chris, Chris had an Arizona tag. Yeah. And I, I only had seven points, but it's, it's one of those. I, I went for a late season tag. They're easier to draw. Yeah. And it was, it was on a historically good unit. My hunt, my hunt didn't turn out too great, but I was able to go on elk hunting. And by the last day I, I did see some bulls and had I been able to do it again, I would kill a bull. Yeah. Just lessons learned. But I think as far as you saying, is it worth it? Yes, it is.

I think you just have to be selective and find out what's best for you. Yeah. If you're not going to, if you're not going to get in the game, of course, you're not going to, you're not going to draw anything. Exactly. Um, and if you wait five more years, say I'm, I'm behind right now. Well, five more years, you're going to be five more years behind. Totally. But if you get in, if you get in now, it's kind of revolving. Yes. People are drawing every year. So that pool is thinning out to a certain extent. So if you get in now five years down the road, you're going to be five years ahead of everybody that's getting in today. Well, and life change, life changes. Like you kind of got to look at it. Like I may not really care right now, but am I going to really care? Care someday. And you're going to wish you had those points.

And so, you know, as, as your tastes change and things you want to do and accomplish and you guys, maybe you guys smash a couple of great bucks and you're like, well, I kind of been there, done that. I love it. But, and I'll take a great tag when it comes, but man, I really wish I had some goat points or sheep, or maybe, you know, you concentrate on some elk or whatever. Yeah. You're going to wish you had those points. Like, and, and so we're gaining points. I'm gaining points for stuff. I don't really want to do this year. I don't really want to do them. Yeah. But, but having said that, when the opportunity arises, I learn of something awesome or that I think could be awesome. I have the points to do it and I do it. And so because I was gaining points for the past five, 10, 15, 20 years, I now can capitalize on something. I didn't even have the knowledge.

It really existed, or maybe it didn't exist, but fires changed the unit or whatever. And now I want to go in that particular state that I've never wanted to go in before. And so I think it's more like just preparing. You just prepare. You just don't know. You don't know what you don't know. Exactly. Exactly. What are the, some of the, what are some states that you would think are like absolute no-brainers if anyone is just trying to get in and get a name in the hat and a couple of good states that have decent opportunity to just go experience new things? Well, I think, I mean, I think Colorado's a no-brainer. I think Wyoming's a no-brainer. I went and smashed a good bull with my son. He had six points. I mean, you know, for Wyoming, got to go, you know, kill a 320s or 330 bull. I didn't even measure it, but, but it was awesome. Yeah. It was an incredible experience in the Bighorns.

And, and I got to go up in there, hunt a bunch of bulls with him. I didn't have a tag. I mean, he did. Yeah. And, and it was awesome, but I didn't know when I started him that this is what we were going to do. Absolutely. But I think it's a no-brainer. That's a state you can kind of look, you can project the odds and, and make things happen, make, make them happen. They, you know, you can always draw a random tag, but you can make things happen too with, with points. And so, you know, the Wyoming elk deer antelope, no-brainer, Arizona, no-brainer, Utah tough for non-residents. It's tough, but you know, it's not that expensive to apply. Yeah. I think that's a no-brainer, especially some of our general hunts. Yeah. Didn't like a giant just get smashed on the, on the Wasatch, like in the late season? Like, oh yeah. It was here in our office.

I mean, they scored him in our office and went high two twenties. I mean, he, and he's 36 inches wide or 37 inches wide. I held him, you know, I held him. I mean, the dudes are hard, those dudes are hard hunters, man. Yeah. Those, those guys have made it happen over and over multiple times and they know what they're doing. And again, I think it's a testament, A, they're driven. You know, B, they're hunting the same place over and over and over. Yeah. And they're able to use that knowledge again and again, name bucks, hunting specific bucks. Yeah. All of that, that's kind of critical. You want to, if you want to do it on a regular basis and they're doing it in a, in what most people would consider a less likely place to do it in. Exactly. And so, yeah, I think that intimate knowledge, it's 10 minutes from their house.

They get to, they get to hit it hard and, and hit it right behind their house. So anyway, I think that's a no brainer in my mind. I, I think Nevada is no brainer. It's tough. There's very few elk tags. Yeah. Very, you know, for all intents and purposes, the sheep draws, drawing odds are brutal. Having said that, I've, I've just, I've hunted Nevada a lot. A lot of it's on landowner tags. Some of it's on draw tags. Um, killed a 249 inch tag on a draw tag, muzzle or draw tag. Chris was right there. Chris filmed the whole thing. Um, you know, open set muzzle or like there's just, you know, there's things that occur there. My, you know, I killed a net two 34 out of Nevada. It's my first giant and it was 2003. Um, it was just a draw tag. It's like October 9th. I was by myself, you know, uh, long story on the deer anyway. But having said that, I mean, I shot him when he went down.

I was just, I kind of hooped and hollered for like five seconds and I felt weird because there was nobody around. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so I'd be crying. Yeah. I just, ah, well, all right. I'm, I'm fired up, but yeah. Good. Wiped out. You know, but anyway. What do you think about like Idaho and New Mexico? These, like these actually truly random states. Are those worth someone named them? I freaking love them. They're, they're awesome. I killed a moose up there in Idaho. Am I known to be a moose guy? No. These guys give me a hard time about moose. Yeah. But having said that, uh, you know, there were some stratified two week seasons. First year they went to that. I drew a November tag and, um, back in the day, 2007, then I went down to Arizona and killed the best buck of my life. Uh, right after that back to back hunts.

But having said that, I've also killed a two 20 buck up there and in Idaho, um, drew a super tag. Uh, and you know, and I drew a super tag for elk too and ate the tag like, and by the way, I eat a lot of tags. But anyway, um, having said that, I've hunted the general up there, uh, seen some great, seen, you know, good bucks, not great bucks, but seen good bucks and hunted up there multiple times. I will always apply in Idaho. My best, uh, a couple of my best bulls, Chris film, Chris filmed them both. I killed a couple of three eighties down there in New Mexico and draw tax. And, and, you know, what, what can you say? How awesome is that? Yeah. Okay. You know, I mean, what would a three 80 cost you here in Utah? You know what I mean? You guys may have watched some of these online auctions or hunting fish connection. I mean, they're legit prices, man.

We're talking the price of a brand new vehicle and to, you know, to go and they're going to walk away, hopefully with something three 80 plus. And I think that's part of this game of, of applying, you know, I don't know if you want to call it the poor man's way to, you know, to trophy animals, but it, but it's a way that we can all do it. You guys can, everybody can do it. Kids can do it. Exactly. And, and, uh, I love New Mexico. New Mexico has got game that's not named. You know what I mean? There's just a lot of good animals spread out and low populations of people. You don't have, you know, salt lake cities and yeah, you know what I mean? It's just right. Seattle bud. Yeah. Crazy up here. I'm going to assume you guys don't apply for Washington. No, but it actually is cheap for the kids on cheap and stuff like that.

So we do, I mean for that, but nah, not for a really, really big sheep got killed this year on the, on the once in a lifetime. I want to say over 200, but that might be. No. Well, you guys, you guys have legit animals. Um, no question, you know, but having said that, you know, you got a squared point system one, that's brutal, uh, well established. The drawing odds are unbelievable. Non-resident wise, just maybe probably not the smartest application, uh, to submit. Having said that we do it for guys. Um, but, but anyway, I think part of this and, and I've had relative, I have relatives that live in Washington, but, um, part of this is, you know, you guys just for hunting in general, fishing, you guys, you guys do have a lot going on for guys that just like to hunt. Yeah. But as far as, yeah, I mean, it's incredible. It is. There's, there's a lot going on. Yeah.

But not a lot of like, you know, of the trophy, you know, uh, mindset for say a Rocky mountain elk or, or, um, mule deer and things like that. I heard you guys' podcast on the desert unit and whatnot. You guys spent a hundred, an hour and a half on, on one, one unit, right? Exactly. Yep. Okay. So we're, I mean, we've got, you know, 10 of those, you know, or whatever. And so there's lots of places to spread out and start applying in other places. However, of course, if you're local, you're resident, you should be doing those things. Yeah. But, but if you want to hunt regular, you can do this. That's, I guess, our point of our business. There's things you can do. State lines are somewhat imaginary for the most part. Uh, if you're willing to drive a little bit and, and, and, uh, risk, you know, the value

or the cost of going out and doing something out of state, I think you'll have a great experience, especially if you're prepared. And that's what we, that's what we specialize in doing. Definitely. And, and that's what we've kind of started in the last couple of years as we, you know, progress through our, um, our career of hunting, if you will. But Bob and I, and, and, uh, another friend of ours went to Idaho to chase elk in 2018. And this has kind of grown since then. So we've been to Colorado back to back years. Now I went to Wyoming and shot my first antelope last year and we're definitely getting into that game, but you just feel like you listen to so many podcasts and, and so many, um, people talk about the broken point systems as our children come in and then get to say, me and Bob want to start in Arizona.

It's like almost, it feels like there's no, there's no point in even trying cause we're never going to catch these Colorado max points is what? 26 or seven this year. Yeah. You're not going to. So, so what? So you're not going to. Exactly. You're not going to hunt two 10 and two a one for elk. You're not going to hunt them. Yeah. But that's okay. Yeah. There's other places to go. There's other things to do. We had a 384 inch bull killed on over counter tag. I'm not saying that's going to be you, but I'm saying there's other things you can do. Um, there, there's just other things. Lots, lots of deer tags. So the, our cover bucks killed with just a unit that just took a few points. I'm talking way less than five and I'm not going to get away, give, give it away. But I'm just saying, I'm just saying like, there's things you can do.

You don't have to, if, if all you did was go into it with the mindset of, I'm never going to catch the best or the highest point guy. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead and give up, you know? Yeah. But having, having said that, like I've drawn a lot of tags and guess what? My points get reset to zero. My points get reset to zero, but now I'm applying for Arizona Rockies, right? Cause I drew my desert. So I'm just saying, um, you should be applying and then the, maybe the point systems are broken. Let's just say they're broken. Yeah. There's always a way to beat the system. There's always something for you. There, there just is. And, and every state's different. How cool is that? Yeah. There's states that don't have point systems. There's states that have preference. There's states that have bonus. There's states with a mix of, you know, half the tags go to maximum point holders, meaning

the guys that apply that have the most points, not max, but people that apply. And then the rest are divvied out on a random draw with more names in the hat, depending on the, how many points you have. All of these systems are awesome because it gives you opportunity and you get to play them all, but you have to know how to play them all. You have to know them. You have to know how many choices on your application really matter. You know what I mean? And all of that comes into unit selections, hunt selections, weapon types, understanding how the seasons affect vulnerability and, and make it to where, you know, you have the best odds at killing something special. And so all of that goes into account when choosing what to do, but that's what we do. That's what we do. I mean, game animals, a lot of guys just say, well, if I can just hunt the Henry's or if

I can just hunt the elk creeks or if I can just hunt this bull, what season do you want on those? How many points do you have? How many tags were issued? Did that one single tag for non-residents went on a random draw that maybe you shouldn't select that even, you know, so there's, there's a fine line of mixing what, what, what's realistic to draw and then the best seasons to kill that animal. And sometimes what's good for you isn't good for your buddy because maybe you have more time to scout in the summer, or maybe you need a rut hunt because you don't have time to scout. And all of that, all of that is, is what makes every single applicant unique and not every, every single guy has a different application strategy. And it kind of takes applying everywhere to make everything come together and have a few opportunities. Absolutely.

And I think that's, that's the most important part about why I was like, want to push people towards what you guys do with the over there is for a business is because you can talk to these people and tell them like, if they feel like I do, you could just like, you just talked to me out of it. It's like, Oh, I better start getting applied everywhere because like you said, if you're not, if you're not applying, then you're, yeah, you're absolutely not going to draw. So I want to, I want to get lucky. I want to go, I want to draw crazy tags and go shoot a sheep one day or, or, or a big giant bull tag or something like that. Or, but yeah, you said, yeah, you're not going to draw these, the best units in the States. Yeah. You're too far behind. We're 25 years behind in some of those Western States, but you know.

The sad part about getting lucky, the sad part about drawing that one tag is you get to hunt it once. Yeah. You get to hunt it once. And when you're done, you kind of, you know what you would do different next time, but there's not going to be a next time. Not a next time. And so that's what I'm saying. Sometimes, sometimes it's a curse to just do the best of the best. And we've got guys, I mean, daily 23 points for deer in Colorado, 22, 24, 25. Some of them are still scared to draw. And when they finally go, they might not see a buck over 180 inches. Yeah. And, and yet you got guys smashing freaking giants or Chris has done it multiple times on, on weird units and whatnot. You know, and I've done it multiple times on a regular, on somewhat of a regular occurrence. I get to go, I've, I've hunted Colorado. I'm not going to say every year, but dang near every year for 15 years.

And, and you know, whether it be a turn back tag, a draw tag, I don't have any points right now. I don't have any points because I get, I use them. I use them regularly. And so anyway. Yeah. I look at it like you, you, you've got to develop a system. So we always talk about long-term and short-term plans. Plans. Yeah. So every state is different. Every unit's different. Some, some units take a lot of points. Some units take very little points and you just have to look at each state and say, okay, what do I want? What are my long-term goals? What are my short-term goals? Me personally, my long-term for a great unit, I'm applying in Arizona for trophy, trophy, right? Yeah. Colorado. I try to make it every year and I'm, I'm going on more of a marginal unit. Usually sometimes units that take zero points. It's like this year I have no points because I drew last year. Yeah.

I may pick one that I can draw with zero points or second choice, but I'm going to go to Colorado or I'm going to look at picking up a landowner tag. Sure. There's always something that you can do in, in almost every state like Utah. Yes, we have the premium units that are almost impossible to draw, but you also have general units with, and even as a non-resident every three, four years, you can probably draw a tag. So I look at that, um, develop a long-term plan, find out the states you want to get in for a big, a trophy draw, and then find other places that you just want to go and, and hunt regularly. And those areas that you can hunt regularly, in my opinion, are maybe more valuable than, than the long-term trophy units. If I lived up in, in Washington, I would be, I would be hitting Idaho every single year.

And I'd probably be looking at some of the Northern Nevada units and just learn them, try to get in there, figure out what's going on. And those are places that you can go back to and they're not that far from you. Exactly. Yeah. You know, no, that's, that's a great advice, man. That's kind of what we're, you know, learning here is that, you know, it's, it's hard as heck to, especially we're, we're, you know, full-time nine to fivers and, and getting out and scouting as much as we can. And we spend a lot of time in the field here in Washington, but we're, we're based on the West side and, you know, driving to, let's just say like, let's just say our premium elk unit would be the blues down there in the Southeast, you know, for elk or something. If we did that, that's just go across the border and hunt elk every year over the counter.

I mean, technically over the counter, but you know, in Idaho. And so we're, we've thought about doing it several times of, you know, just dedicating multiple weekends throughout the summer, taking, you know, three, four day weekends, go down there, scout a couple of units out, and then just keep hammering it every year. Until you learn it and you can start taking, you know, good bowls out every year, but it's so hard with, you know, it's so when you're on the outside looking into what you guys do for a living, just applications and all that stuff. It's intimidating learning the West, learning the different States, learning, you know, what the point systems are, which ones are the, maybe to stay away from, which ones to absolutely, like you said, absolute no brainers are those States. And it's like, okay, well it's the time is now. And you just like, you totally nailed it.

If you're not going to get in now. And then, like you said, you're back to zero when you draw those tags. So you're right there with me. And I guarantee you, you're still applying. So it's, we would be the same. So it's, I ain't quitting. Exactly. Yeah. I ain't going to quit. No, that's a great way to look at it. Yeah. I'm not a quitter. Yeah. You guys a quitter? I'm not quit. No. You know what I mean? Absolutely, man. That's a great way to look at it. And go ahead, Chris. It is, it is overwhelming, but then again, you have so many tools out there nowadays to learn, right? Yeah. So you have services like Epic Outdoors for a hundred bucks. I mean, a hundred bucks is nothing anymore. No. Yeah. You go to the gas station and spend $75 filling up your vehicle. Yeah. So a hundred dollars and you have access to someone who can give you personal consulting. You have member draw lists.

If you draw a tag, you can call in and say, Hey, I drew this tag. Do you have anybody who has drawn that tag before that I can talk to? We'll give you their number. You can call them and lots of people. Yeah. The database has thousands of people in it. And so Chris is a hundred percent right, but it's not, I'm not going to make all your hopes and dreams come true. I'm just going to give you a heads up on what I think are good opportunities for you to make all your hopes and dreams come true. You know? Yeah. That's what we're going to do. We're going to tell you what's available and, and, and let you know of the opportunities that you might not be thinking about. You learn one thing, it's worth a hundred bucks. And, and that's the way, you know, that's the way we look at it. Um, so anyway, I don't, I don't even want to talk about our business anymore.

I mean, I, I just, I'm fired up about hunting and I, and, uh, I think we're, we're here to help guys and let's leave it at that. But I mean, there's just, there's just a lot of, there's a lot of opportunities. And by, by being on the cutting edge, by, by applying, by doing all these things, that's provided us the opportunities. And I've spent some money on some landowner tags and that, and I'm not buying landowner tags to stay on somebody's private land. I'm buying unit wide landowner tags at times, depending, depending on what I want to do and what I feel like I can afford. And then I'm, I can, I guarantee you, I'm, I'm set up enough now. And that means I'm getting old that I have enough points. I guarantee you, I have a full schedule for the rest of my life unless Biden takes away our guns. You know what I mean? I, I have, I have a full schedule for the rest of my life.

I've got more opportunities with me and my kids than I can do. And I'm turning, I'm turning down opportunities. I'm applying not to draw tags because I've already got a schedule and I haven't, and that's not including a purchased landowner tag. So I'm just saying, as things get going, as you, your knowledge increases, whoever's listening out there, as your knowledge increases and you start realizing the opportunities that are out there, you'll be glad you had the points. Just get the points. Even if you apply points only, just get them. You don't know when you're going to need them. And unless hunting doesn't mean that much to you, if it's a casual thing, no problem. We can help you with a hunt here and there. Not a big deal. But if it's something you want to do on a regular basis, it's just got to get in the game. You got to get in the game. You got to know how to play it a little bit.

So, yeah. Well, I think that's a, I think that's a no brainer from my end now. Okay. Let's transition really quick before we, we jump off here. How about Colorado and the crazy season dates? Is, are you going to have to owe their Mr. Bronson there 500 bucks or is he going to go? I know him anything. I promise you. So, you know, I tease him and we always, we're in the office of course. And I mean, we can get excited about anything. They just, I mean, we're, we're writing the magazine and doing the research and whatnot and talking to guys. Um, and so as we get going, we know, we know we've missed out on archery muzzleloader hunts in Colorado. We know we have. Sure. Because we use that state as our November hunting experience. I mean, there's not a lot of tags available to go hunt deer in November. You're not supposed to, it's not good management to hunt rutting mule deer with a rifle. Yeah.

And, and so generally speaking, a lot of States have gone away from that, uh, with the exception of like Nevada, we'll go till November 5th and just let people just start flirting with the rut. Yeah. And then they'll give the deer break or in some of these desert units. Yeah. You can hunt the full month of November, even in December at times. Um, but those are on say in large part, uh, it's not a hundred percent true, but in large part they're in, you know, arid units with low deer densities and just allowing people a chance to kill something, you know, cause otherwise without a November hunt, they may not see much. Um, and so there's, there's, in Arizona off offers rut tags with a rifle on the strip, but you know, they're very careful and don't give a lot of tags out. Um, you know, same thing with the Kaibab, they have early hunts and late hunts, but generally

speaking, not good management to go and smoke deer with a rifle, any number of tags, you know? And so, and so having said that Colorado offers lots of tags in and around the rut. Um, uh, but they also are a deer freaking factory. Yeah. Like that, that place can put out some numbers and, and, and we've seen them and I call it accidentally mismanaging. And, and I love it when States accidentally mismanage and, and maybe give out less tags than they actually could. Um, but at times when they do that with a unit, you're going to see a surplus of older deer. Yeah. And, and at times that's happened and that, that happened, uh, as we've talked about on earlier podcasts in roughly 2004 or five and six, there was an abnormal number of older deer on the landscape. And, and people laid down some freaking giants because they're vulnerable in the rut and they, they were mismanaging.

They weren't giving as many tags out cause they were careful. They went from an over the counter system to a limited draw system. And they were so careful cause the public beat them down so bad. They, they were scared to, um, manage the other way. They wanted, they wanted to bring the deer back. And so, and they did. And it was incredible. And then they, they increased tags, increased tags, increased tags over time, uh, to maximize opportunity. Generally speaking, game departments don't like to let animals go to waste. They don't want to, they want them in your freezer. Yeah. They don't, they want to, they want to have all the dough's bread. They want to manage somewhat properly, but they also want to take advantage of the resource. And that's part of you and I browbeaten them for not giving us for the drawing odds being so tough. You know what I mean? Yeah.

So, I mean, we're, we're, we're ticked. The drawing odds are bad, but then we're ticked because they're given too many tags. Yeah. You know what I mean? We're always ticked. Exactly. Hunters in general. You know what I mean? Yeah. People are ticked here in Utah because the general isn't managed for giants because we know what some of these general units have the capability of producing, but you can't have it both ways. And we've got a lot of the hunting public that misses going out with their family every single year. They always went out and had deer camp. And so there's a lot of those guys that miss out on not having over the counter tags anymore. Having said that, so you, so you try to manage game and game and fish. I, my heart goes out to them a little bit. They're managing socially. They're not just managing for the animals. They're managing you and I. They're managing the animals.

They're trying to make a little bit of everybody happy and nobody's happy. And, and, and so, you know, at times it's easy for me to say, and I had a big, long conversation with the main guys at Colorado. And he says, you know, I mean, what would you do? I said, it doesn't matter what I do. It doesn't even matter what I do because, you know, your public has done what they've done for how long it's ingrained in the social system. Yeah. You know what I mean? I think, I don't think you should hunt deer in the rut. I don't think you should do it. And, but having said that people have looked forward to it for years. They've banked 25 points for it. 20 points, 18, 17, 16, whatever. Yeah. Thinking that that rut hunt's coming up and they've been waiting and you would have a huge bunch of gnashing of teeth if you change things that monumentally.

So I tell him the only thing you've got to work with is tag numbers. And I think you should take units that are special, have special genetics, can produce numbers. Maybe they're not quite as vulnerable to a winter kill, whatever. And take that group of units, several units, whatever. And I named a few and say, maybe we give less tags here. Maybe we just, maybe we do take pride in a few units and then, you know, allow opportunists to apply in other places and, you know, not let deer quote go to waste. I don't think there's anything wrong with allowing a few deer to die of old age here and there. I, I like it when that happens. I like seeing something reach its maximum potential. And I think exactly. Yeah. In a way that is pretty cool. Exactly. It gives a hope that like, yeah, I want to know that there's, there's that giant out there,

you know, not just going to go see threes and fours and not knowing that they have, that's why that's so fun for us going to Colorado last couple of years. And we, like you said, it's, you can never hunt deer in November, you know, in the, in the prime rut with a rifle in Washington state, unless you have the quality tag. So going to Colorado, it's a special thing, just getting to witness that. And, and like you said, it's a deer factory. Like we're having two, three, 400 deer days. And you're like, this is absolutely insane compared to what we're used to here in Washington. You're laying down a shoot the three first three point here in Washington in Colorado. You're like, okay, there's, there's a couple. You are, but I've also, you know, I was listening to you guys' podcast talking about the desert, you know, and one of you guys, I don't know, I don't remember which one of you, but one

of you said, you know, ask the guy, biologist for all intents and purposes. I didn't, I don't listen to the whole thing, but I'm just paraphrasing. Yeah. So basically, do you think we're, we could give more tags and have more opportunity because there's X amount of deer and we went through the numbers and you went through how many, you know, are older deer and how many, all, all of the population, the dynamics within. Yep. And could, could we utilize this resource more?

The answer is yeah. I mean, you could. Sure. But having said that, that's the only unit you guys talked about for the most part. Yep. And so why not keep it special? Absolutely. It's not, it's not, just keep it, keep it special. It's kind of cool. You got a place you guys are proud of. Yeah. And that's what we talked about. If they did hand up more tags, that would just lessen the experience for the guys that were to draw it. Right. Exactly. You did say that. You did say that. And it would, because you know, there's not as much access. Say there's one major road, whatever, and it would lessen the experience, but trophy quality would lessen the trophy quality and it would lessen the experience as a whole. That's what I think is special. It's nice to, the Arizona strip has a place they can talk about. Yeah. They get to talk about the Kaibab. What a factory.

They get to talk about the Arizona strip. Unbelievable. Second to none. Yeah. There's other places that are like that. We just don't manage like they do, you know, and the Kaibab, I would say, could be managed tighter. And I think they're going to start with that. So, you know, having said that, the strip is managed extremely well. But if you manage the whole state like that, I mean, A, you can't run a budget. B, there's a lot of people out there that like to go hunting and have family traditions. And so there's just, it's not socially, you're not socially capable of managing like that, but it is nice to have a place that you're proud of. This is our shining star, right? Yeah. That makes total sense. Yeah. And so, you know, Nevada has that. Utah has that. It'd be nice if Colorado, Colorado has units that are known for it, are known to produce it.

But, you know, every state has their challenges. I mean, they've got winter kills. They've got rifle hunts. They're a deer factory. But at the same time, one snowstorm, even on the second rifle, can wipe out a bunch of big deer. Yeah. Well, now we've got wolves too, Colorado. Yeah. You've got wolves coming. And, you know, I mean, hopefully that takes a while to grab hold. Yeah. But, you know, you don't know. I mean, I don't know how many they're going to dump in there. Yeah. But we've seen our government spend money on a lot of crazier things, you know? Yeah. So, anyway, I just, it's kind of cool. But part of it just in the industry, like in the way, you know, Chris and I and Adam and the guys here in the office is you see something trending. You see them cutting tags in certain places. And then all of a sudden you see a little bit older age class show up.

Part of the Colorado thing, he says, you know, he says, on paper, we're showing things as good as ever. We've got a good number of older deer and things are normal. I said, well, when you say that, are you breaking it down into three and a half, four and a half, five and a half, six and a half year old bucks? Well, no, we can't because we're just viewing them. And I said, I know that. I contend in 2004, five and six, you had an inordinate amount of six and a half year old bucks. And right now your first year four points are probably considered mature. And so right now you have less of those six and a half and more of the three and a half, four and a halves. And I think that's the difference in quality. And he says, well, I've seen a difference in quality. I don't see the quality of bucks I used to see. And I said, but, but on paper we're doing good.

And I, and, and yeah, I agree with that. That's where the human element comes in of being able to quantify it using reason. You know, humans are capable of reasoning and saying, yeah, it's on paper. It says this, but my eyes don't see it. You know what I mean? And what does that mean? And it's okay if it doesn't see it, if you're managing for it, if you're managing for mediocre or average, okay. There's a lot of units that are managed that way. Yeah. Yeah. We've been talking to a game warden, uh, in a unit in Colorado where we're hunting third season. And she even told us flat out, right. You know, we don't, we manage for opportunity here. You're not going to see the big one eighties, one nineties. They're very few and far between. And they're just honest. Yeah. She was saying, if you see a, I mean, this is, this is, you know, definitely don't take her word for it or whatever.

But she was just saying, like Bob said, this is a, we're in a zero point unit third season. So you know which ones they are. And she's like, if you see a 140 inch four point, you better, you better shoot it. You know, obviously there's two hundreds that come out of there. One eighties that come out of there. We've seen a handful in the last couple of years, but it's like, that's not what they're managed for. Those are the, those are the freaks that make it through those units that to get to the age class where they're mature. And that's what the biologists and game words are saying. If you see 140, 150 inch four point, that's, that's a great buck for the area. And, but think about it from their perspective. They got, they're stopped. Call it 30 times a day. They're stopping 30 people a day, whatever. Right. Yep.

At some point they're tired of answering the question from non-residents because we made the trip there. Yep. They're just shooting them straight. Hey, here's the deal guy. You're, you're not going to see what you want to see. Yeah. And, and he's, but having said that I was in, I was in 18 third or 18 fourth. Actually, John was there. John had a tag. I found a mid one nineties buck, uh, got John on it and, and it was an awesome experience, right? And this is in a unit that is super, super easy to draw. Okay. And, and everybody can go look at the odds and whatnot. And they give a crap load of tags. Generally speaking, the world's going to say, you see 140 inch or you dump it. Yeah. And, and if you want to go home with one, maybe you should, but having said that it's got good genetics and there's been some big bucks taken out of there. They're going to say that about every unit.

They're going to, they said it about 21 unit. 21 used to be incredible. You know, 21, 61 and one 42 opinion, Kenny army base. Those were, those were kind of the, the, the known trophy units years and years ago. And I hunted 21. Everybody was down on 21, 21 sucks. It wasn't near what it was. You know, and I smashed a 34 inch 207 and it was down. It was down, but there was, there's still a few out there. If you asked the game warden, he would say, don't pass 175 incher. Yeah. And he's right. If you want to go home with one, don't do it. But having said that, there are a few. And my, and my dad, you know, killed a 212 a different year. And I killed one with a big old dropper. Like they are down, but it doesn't mean I'm going to stay home. They're still there. It doesn't mean you should stay home. Yeah. There's a few of them out there. Yeah.

And, and so I'm not going to ask the game warden what, what he thinks. I may, I may bend his ear a bit, but I'm going to let it make, you know, make me have a bad attitude. Change your hunt or change your attitude about what you're expecting or what you're expecting to see. Yeah, totally. You get a hunt rifle in the rut. Yeah. Like that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. Right. And on a year like this with these exceptionally late dates, that's why Adam Bronson's going to do that. Yeah. He's, he ain't going to be an archery and a muzzleloader this year. However, however, next year or the year after, after another layer of bucks gets taken, he may, he may do that. It's not as important. And this year, as late as ever, I contend he'll be there. I'm going to be there. Chris will be there. Everybody's going to be there. And, you know, that, that makes it a priority.

I still have guys with mid twenties points that are got other things going on that are important to them. And they're going to, they're going to save them. And they're just crazy. Nothing in the forecast says big deer coming. Nothing in the forecast does. It would have to, it would take an exceptional change in management, delay in wolves. It's, you know, some, you know, light winners for seven years in a row, whatever, depending on the, depending on the unit. Yeah. So anyway, we love Colorado. I, I, I wish there was, I wish I could say there was, you know, but having said that, Kay, last year there were, there's a unit that killed four or five over 200 inches. Like, I mean, within all the seasons, I've got guys going muzzleloader and archery every single year, zero points. And they're smashing 190 and 200 inch deer. I know who they are. They don't know.

I know who they are, but I do, I hear, and they meet people in the field and those people call me and they're doing it on a regular basis. Cause people, and people that kill big deer on a regular basis or draw on a regular basis, aren't telling the world about it because they want to continue to kill big deer. And, and so anyway, there's things that are happening that the world may, may not know about and, and whatnot. And that's what keeps us going back. And, and so anyway, it's again, why do you gain points? Well, maybe you want to hunt a two or three point unit because your buddy went and left a couple of big deer and started to learn the area and you're glad you started applying. I don't know. Yeah. You know what I mean? So it's super exciting. What's exciting. What's exciting about Western big game? Everything's different.

There's always something we're learning something all the time. I've been in the industry my entire life. I'm not a young guy anymore and I'm learning stuff every day. You should see my magazines. I write in them nonstop and we have a membership of people that are good hunters and they, I, they're awesome. And they, and they pass on what they see here and there. Not specific units. A lot of guys are quiet and that's, I totally get that. I don't even necessarily need to know necessarily, but I, but it's awesome. We get the photos, we get the stories and it gives you confidence that there's hidden gems. And I hate that word, but there's, there's things out there that you can be doing. So. Yeah. I think those little hidden gems kind of motivate a lot of folks do though. So those are neat. It's a game, man. It's a game. Exactly. And it's, and it's a blast, right? There is nothing.

There is nothing like Western big game. I mean, and I hate to get into the whitetails too much or I'd probably be flat addicted. You know, the sick eye guards they got. Oh yeah. Mass and what I'd just be, I'd, I'd lose it. Yeah. They're, they're pretty critters too. It doesn't like me, man. Well, I don't know. Anything big special, you know, I, I, I got lucky and harvested a big ram in Arizona. It went like 184 inch Nelson. And I, and, and in a unit that, uh, you know, technically on paper is not supposed to produce them. And it was the first year they offered two tags. So non-residents could apply for it. Just little things going out on a limb. Yeah. That was my once in a lifetime tag. I went out on a limb and I was so fortunate to, to take a great ram. And so you just don't know, you know, you got to take some risk here and there too. I think I'm good at that.

But having said that, and Chris can attest to this, I've ate a freaking lot of tags. I've ate a lot of tags. So yeah. Tell me I'm wrong, Chris. No, you've ate some tags. I would imagine if you're kind of waiting for that next level that you've eaten, uh, quite a few. I like to learn on, you know, what my kids are doing. I've hunted, I've been able to hunt with them on units that I wanted to learn, but didn't necessarily want to burn my points on. There you go. And so, you know, and so I went out. Yeah. Hit the, hit the big horns in Wyoming. Uh, you know, some of these units in Colorado, uh, Adelope in Nevada, you know, my son, Sean, and he also drew a 121 deer tag. I mean, just things that are cool. Yeah. That I want to go, I want to go learn. Yeah. Check them out. Yeah. It just helped me. It just helped, helped a lot. Yeah. Build that database. See where you want to go back. I like it.

I don't know. Yeah. Well, I think, uh, I think that pretty much covers an RN. I know we went over your, uh, your suggested timeline. So I apologize there, but you kids stop. Well, I don't care. Let's get rambling. Dude, dude. I ain't going to let you guys get a word in edgewise. I got some things to say tonight. You got me loaded on monster. I like it, man. That's exactly what we wanted. That's the best conversation. Get a guy talking about what he's passionate about. And that, uh, that's what we like around here. And we're, well, there's, there's a lot of theory. There's a lot of theory to the hunting. And, and when we look at what's on paper and in the magazine, like Chris said, it's one thing to look at the odds and stuff, but then there's a lot of theory. Why, why go here? Well, maybe the burn's three years old.

They've had a few tag cuts and we're just hearing little rumblings or whatever. Like there's just, there's theory behind some things and capitalizing on things before maybe it's truly manifested itself in the quality that's available. Yeah. You know? And so some of that takes part in taking chances, using the points that you didn't know why you were gaining them, you know, things like that. Yeah. Mid, mid conversation there. I sent you guys a message. Why don't you pull that really quick? Um, it's just a big old giant bull. Um, I sent it to the Epic Instagram. It was, uh, actually we drew a quality elk tag a few years back and we had some game cameras pulled and, uh, we killed, we killed like a three 10, we killed like a three 10 bull. And then we go back in to pull game cameras. And this is what we saw the next day. Wow. Isn't that incredible? Sick bull. Yeah.

For Washington or anywhere really. That's pretty good. Yeah. Oh, it's sick. What do you think that is? We've, we've heard so many guesses, but I'd, I'd trust your judgment. I mean, he's, uh, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's got incredible thirds, incredible swords. So here's my gut. When, when a bull has big swords and everything else looks big, he's bad beans. If he has, if he has, if he has, yeah, if he has, yeah, I mean his beams, but Jen, I mean, he's great on the fronts. I mean, you're probably 19. I mean, you just add them up on paper. 19s and 23, 24 inch thirds and a 21 inch four and a, you know, 14 inch fifth and 52 or three inch beams and you know, 29 inches mass, 23, 30, 30 inches of mass and a 40 inch inside. I mean, you can just kind of add him up. He's probably something significant. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. What are you guys thinking? I don't know.

I, we've never even seen bulls like this, man. We like, we scouted this area. I mean, all summer just grinding it. And then we had, you know, dozens and dozens of bulls on camera and then mid rut, you know, we checked this camera that he showed up on this one camera and gave us an absolute show. We have videos of him bugling and just all sorts of cool stuff on September 17th. He shows up and that was the only picture we had of him, uh, throughout the whole year. And then, uh, that's it. But I don't know, man, I would say 80s. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. He appears on paper. He's three, three nineties, upper three nineties. So I'm going to just say like 19, let's just say 19 plus 19 plus. I mean, those thirds are disgusting. Uh, you know, 20, I say 23, but I'll bet you they're 25 or something sick. Um, and then, uh, you know, a 21 inch sword and a 14 inch fifth and a 53 inch beam and 29

inches of mass. I mean, that's 178 times two is three 56 plus, uh, you know, an average spread down here would be 40 inches. I mean, you're at three 96. I'm just, that's a significant, that's a significant bull. You can have, you, you can have a fault. If you don't have a fault on a bull, he's freaking governor class world class. Yeah. So you can have a fall and get a, and still have a giant and, and let's say he had a shorter beam than you want. Okay. That's one point. If he has a short front end, that's a short six points. Yeah. You know, generally speaking of front end your first, second, thirds, that's a lot of points that that bull's got a good front end. He, he's not super curvy up front, but he does, you know, easily roll out to the end of his nose. And then you got big, big thirds and you got a big four. I mean, that's a big, pretty, some crazy remote country too.

It's like backpacking eight miles in. That's another thing I think people miss out on is, is sometimes I put more value on a Henry mountains tag. I killed one of my deer, right? So I killed one of my deers, Brutus, 250 incher with a bow. Okay. Chris filmed it. He hunted for two years. Okay. Honestly, my dad should have killed it, but he, you know, he wanted a different tag that was not a general tag. It was a more prestigious tag known to produce better. But he knew about an animal that was on a general tag and over the counter because it was over the counter for him. He didn't have any value. There was no value placed on the tag. If I can get that tag every year, it's not, not really a special tag. I would rather go to the Arizona strip. Yeah. I'd rather go to the Henry's. I would rather go somewhere special. Right. But this is an Arizona deer. This is an Arizona strip quality deer.

This is an Arizona or a Henry mountains deer better than the Henry, Henry mountains would produce nowadays. And so sometimes you got to hunt the animal, not the tag. You got to hunt the animal. You guys know about a specific giant bull. I don't, it don't matter if that's a, that's a governor bull in a lot of different states. Absolutely. Hunt the bull. Don't worry about. On the, on where that picture is taken. That is a, that's a quality tag. So that's a 15 point unit. But it just raised the topic. Another. Absolutely. Of interest, you know. Oh yeah. Guys put value on. Sometimes guys put value on points and tags instead of an animal there. I already know about, if you know about an animal and it, and you can get a tag there, like even though you don't think you can kill it, even though there's going to be a lot of pressure from maybe it's a general area. Try. Yeah.

Don't, don't let somebody else hunt that animal. Like try to kill it. Yeah. Like put, treat it. If you, if I treated some of these general tags, like it was a Henry mountains once in a lifetime, I would smash more giants. Myself. If I treated it like it was an Arizona strip tag. If I treated my backyard as an Arizona strip tag. If I put that much emphasis on it and that much dedication, like I'll never get that tag again. I'd smash a giant this year. No, that's a good way to look at things. That's the way it works. That really is a good way to look at things. Well, you, uh, you good there, Bob? You got any more questions for him? I know we got a boatload of questions, but we're way over on time. So I don't care. I mean, if you guys, unless you're hungry, I mean, you can throw a couple out there. I don't know. Hit him with a couple there, Bob.

I just think a lot of our listeners have wrote in saying, you know, what's, uh, like, what are some tricks and tips you have up your sleeve for a harvesting mature mule deer? Like what's your go-to? Like you have like some, uh, how would you explain? How do you kill those big bucks, man? Well, we glass a lot. Um, you know, we glass a ton. So we, we got a lot of open country down here and there's some, some places I'm not going to go because I don't, I don't feel like it. There's techniques that I'm capable of. Like if I have to go in the thickest country in the middle of Oregon and Oregon's a 16 hour drive for me and, and I don't have the inner knowledge or something to make something happen. I may choose a different unit in Oregon. That's maybe it's the Steens cause it's desert and it's a little more open and I feel at home not seeing much. You know what I mean?

Cause I've hunted Nevada and some of these low, you know, low density areas and just throwing it out there. I mean, low density areas are accidentally mismanaged cause game and fish doesn't know how many animals are on the landscape. And so generally speaking, they give less tags than maybe they could. Okay. So you have a few animals dying of old age. So anyway, just a little tip. That's a good tip. Yeah. But having said that, um, there's a lot of guys that like the thick stuff. I mean, or they're just for example, but, but not me. And so maybe that's for some guys and there's some guys that are dang good at it. I talked to a region one guy up in Montana, smashing great bucks. I don't for a second think I'm capable of going up into region one and smashing a great buck, you know, and I've killed a few great bucks. I just don't, it's not my style. It's not my thing.

I don't have the local knowledge. And so I like to go in places where I can glass. Maybe I'm hunting the rut in Colorado. Um, or I start to start venturing out of, um, my comfort zone, but in stuff that feels comfortable. Yeah. So, you know, maybe out of my comfort zone would be a new unit, but the, but the terrain is comfortable to me and works for my style. Uh, whether it be, you know, deer vulnerable because of water, lack of water, desert areas. Um, I used to hunt, I started hunting the desert because nobody hunted the desert and maybe because of Ridge Reaper and, and other things, people podcasts and whatnot. And I'm not talking about just mine, other people. Yeah. Maybe the desert became more popular to hunt and now it's tougher to draw and, and people are learning how to hunt these places. And, you know, back in the day without social media and things, people didn't know how to

do those things as much or didn't have the confidence to keep going. Um, you know, and so anyway, but my style is to hunt lower densities and, and, and then you got to pass them. You know, it's okay to pass deer unless, and obviously if you need to feed your family, I'm still learning that part.

Yeah. You got to pass the forkies. I don't think. Somebody was teasing somebody about forkies. That's Bobby. Yeah. I don't see Bob pass on many animals there. Forkies aren't, but forkies aren't bucks yet. Nope. I was telling people forks are for eating deer, not for storming. But Hey, you know, whatever. This one, this question is a pretty good one, but I'm going to ask Chris, uh, this is for Jason, but, uh, I'm going to ask Chris, uh, what do you think he does that nobody else does? He's willing to eat a tag that most people aren't willing to eat tags. They say they are, but they really aren't. Yeah. And if you look at, you look at people who've killed a lot of big animals, they've also eaten a significant number of tags. Yeah. Um, and that's, that's one thing he's willing to hold out for the chance that that monster is there somewhere.

And we've been on, I can't even tell you how many hunts we've been on and we've spent, man, I remember one, we spent 30 days straight. We were after one buck and 30 days in the field. But, but if you're willing to spend 30 days for that one buck and not kill. Yeah. Then maybe you're, you've got a chance of killing a big one. Man, that's a lot of mountain houses. How was your gut? No kidding, man. Uh, guy gets stuffed up here and there. You know, and that's, I, I, we, we did, we hunted for one specific buck, but, but those are also the, like the highlights of Chris and I's time in the field when we did kill that buck or whatever it, I mean, that, that's living, man. You hunt one buck and if you can do it a couple of years in a row, if you're lucky enough to be in a spot where you can get the same tag multiple years, whether it be, let's call

it the wassage front, whatever those guys that's hunting like that's hunting. You can kill. Oh, everybody can kill and you can go out and feed your families. And I think you should. And it's a blast and it's great for families. It's great for bonding. It's great for being in the hills. But when you take it next level and you hunt one animal down, I mean, that's living. You're just ruined after that. You're ruined. And Chris has done the same thing in Colorado. I mean, he shed hunted and he's hunted up multiple seasons and he has hunted the boundaries of it in other units and he's done everything and, and he's followed specific bucks year to year and videoed them and it consumed him. Yeah. It consumed him. And, and then he didn't get to take that deer home. One of his buddies did. Oh, he got him. How big was it? You know? Yeah. But, but having said that, it's, that's hunting.

He'll never forget it. I'll never forget it. And, and Chris, some of these animals that I'm on, Chris, Chris feels a part of that. He, oh yeah, he was there. He, his job was to film, but it's consuming. Yeah. It's consuming. Yeah. I'd say that's the other thing. The other thing you asked me that, that Jason maybe does different. Yeah. A lot of people have a lot of different hobbies. A lot of people watch football and watch NASCAR and Jason, Jason lives for hunting. The, and there's the amount of dedication that goes in that nobody else has. Yeah. If you're willing to put in the time that he puts into hunting, you're going to kill some animals. Yeah. And that's just, people aren't willing to sacrifice the other luxuries of life and the other things that they want to do in their spare time. They're just not willing to do it. And that's, that's the one thing about him.

If you're willing to put in that kind of time, you're probably going to do okay. Yeah. But he puts in more time and more thought and more research than anybody I know. So that's, that's where it comes from. Yeah. I have a, I have a good wife. I was just going to say, I don't know how you're still married.

Hey, I got the best. That's awesome, man. No, that's the absolute best. Yeah. That's serious stuff right there. Do you have, she takes pride in that. Like, um, my best animals are at the house, right? And you'd think they'd be in the office. Right. But, and I mentioned, so chief's my biggest buck. Arizona. How big is he? He's 275. Nets, nets. It's bigger than some bulls I've killed. Okay. Well, Rosie's or I don't know, whatever. Maybe Rocky's too. All right. So anyway, she, um, I, I mentioned, Hey, you know, uh, you know, we kind of did, we brought on a new consultant here at the office this week. And so I'm, I was moving offices and I've been in that office. I don't know. It feels like 15 years in this particular spot. And, um, so I'm, I'm, I moved offices and I just thought, you know, how to bring chief down. And he's on a pedestal mount, a sick mass.

I just, I love the deer, everything about the story, the everything. And she's just quiet. She didn't, she still hasn't responded to that. And so I'm not taking chief. I'm not bringing chief down to the office, but she takes pride in it. She takes pride in it because she gave, she sacrificed a lot too. Yeah. When I was out learning something because I didn't know anything, you know, in the early 2000, I was just, I was trying to figure it out. I was tracking bucks. You're supposed to, people were tracking, right? You track. And I had to learn how to track. And I was tracking them in all times of the year, tracking to learn them and, and learned the J hook. And I learned coming back on my track and I, you just learn, you learn feeding and bedding and you just learn stuff. Right. And I'm out there doing it and she's raising a family and keeping things together at home

and we're making no money and, and, uh, you know, putting in a yard with guide money and this and that. And, and just, she sacrificed a lot. So when I'm successful and she sees that she gave up a lot for that. And so, you know, you walk in, in my house, you got to, you know, my deer from Southern Nevada two years ago, staring at you and a deer from Colorado. And then in the corners of my, you know, the one I talked about in Nevada, my first giant all looking at you and it's just special. Hey, it's special to me, but it's special to her too. And that's, I mean, anyway, you don't find that very often in women. I think Chris has got one. She's probably a better hunter than Chris. We're going to find out. But anyway, find, find a good gal. Absolutely. Those of you that are. Jeff and I have a pretty good support system as well. So it definitely helps out a lot. Absolutely.

Not each other or women. Yeah. Yeah. Actually both. We sleep next to each other quite a bit too, but at home. There you go. There you go. Hey. Yeah. We got some good ladies at home taking care of that. That's right. Looking after the house. But one last question and we're eating up time, but I think this is a good one because anyways, I'll just get right to it. Glassing tips and techniques. Everyone just says glass, but what is truly glassing? Like when you think of glassing, is there anything that I actually, you probably know what I'm talking about. Take it away. I know what you're talking about. Yeah. I think it's important to, you got a glass and you got a glass in good areas, right? I mean, you can go out there and just shotgun it. But until when you start really understanding where you need to be, I can, I can drive through a unit. This point in my life, I can say, I like that.

I don't like that. And it, I don't know what it is. It might be bitter brush. It might be, um, escapement, whatever. Um, you can look at country and just say, you know, I like this. I feel like this is big deer country. I need to glass this. And, and then a lot of times, you know, um, when you're glassing, sometimes you need to glass into the sun. And, and with that, as you know, if you're glassing into the sun, you're also looking at the shady side of trees and that's where they're going to bed. You know what I mean? And so there's just things like that to, you know, there's strategic glassing and then I'll glass, I glass really hard, of course, morning and morning and evenings. But when there's a full moon, I mean, these deer will be bedded at daylight. So they be, they're bedded at daylight cause they've spent up all night feeding up and down all night.

And generally they're bedded at daylight and then they may get up an hour after daylight or two or three hours after daylight. And so I'll spend longer times glassing in the mornings on full moons. If it's a dark moon, I mean, after two, three hours in a lot of this desert stuff, sometimes 30 minutes, but two to three hours, you're done. And I'm, and a lot of guys will sit in glass and they'll continue to look for the antler or the flicker, flick of the year and things like that. I don't do that as much. Um, I do that if I've got a specific animal in a forest forks, Chris, I mean, we're dealing with forks. Right. And so we had a buck in Nevada, same thing. You can glass him. He's up and moving. Uh, you're going to see him when they're up and moving. Generally speaking, if, if you've got good glass, you're on a tripod and you're, you're gritting it, you're, you're working it.

And, and then at times you'll lose them, but you've got them basically, you know, basic, the basic acre, two acres that he's, that he's bedded in or whatever. And you might pick him up when he decides to rebed, they're going to lay down. But just like you and I, you roll over and bed, you know what I mean? And so he's going to get up, work around and you might catch him and whatnot. And that'll help you know where he's at for an exact stock or whatever. So, so anyway, I don't look for a flicker of an ear or an antler unless I'm on a specific buck and I've already seen him. Cause I probably, if I didn't see him up walking around, I don't know. I just don't have the confidence that I'm going to, and I'm going to be tired for the evening. Um, maybe I need to go out and check water. Maybe I need to track off water. Maybe I need to hit a different vantage point, whatever.

But, but, uh, from the same vantage point, I, I'm probably not going to continue to glass looking for just a piece of an animal. If I didn't see the animal I want all morning, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Having said that, there've been a lot of guys that are successful by sitting behind doctors and looking for a, for a piece of an antler and ear flick when they didn't see anything all morning. So I'm just saying, but that's just me. I, I run and I, I like to, I like to move. I'm, I'm aggressive. I'm very aggressive in my approach and, um, I'll sit in glass for two or three hours, but it dang sure better be where I need to be to, you know, to keep my attention. And I don't have to see an animal to keep my attention, but I have to know he's there. Uh, whether it's trail camera, whether it's, I know the history, I know the animal, I know

the area, whatever, you know, I'm fine to do it, but if it's not working, I'm going to change it up. I mean, Chris and I did, we remember that three 80 bull we were hunting down in New Mexico and these same tactics for deer work for elk. We're down there. And I mean, we drug around this water hole. We did not know this thick country. We did not know where this bull we'd get him on trail camera. And then we would never hear him. We'd never see him. And this was an area where there's 10 elk or something. And so finally, Chris and I, I've got pictures of us. We're dragging a big old dead cedar tree around this water hole to figure out what the tracks of him coming in and out of water. And we would track him to know basically the country he was in. And there was a water, a little old, you know, water tank, um, from a well that held water that

what puts you 30 feet in the air or 40 feet in the air. And we would glass off that sucker cause that was the highest thing around, you know? And we actually ended up, uh, seeing that bull right off a freaking two track road off the four wheeler, did a smash and grab and walked up to, walked up to this bull and it was the bull on choke cam. I mean, you know what I mean? And so, uh, you know, anyway, you just don't know what tactics are going to work. And I didn't know how we were going to kill that bull. I had no idea how we're going to kill that bull, but it was the bull we wanted. And it was a five day season in New Mexico. It's all they had was five day seasons on their firearm hunts. So it worked. We got lucky, but we took a lot of risk. We hunted another big bull before for the first day or something. And then we moved out to the desert, slept in the, was it the back of the truck?

Freaking cold. And, uh, just slept in the back of the truck and put all our eggs in that basket, figuring I was going to eat a tag and, you know, kill a 386 inch six point. You know what I mean? So you just don't know what's going to work.

We have no idea. Let me explain it. Let me explain it. Yeah. It sucked. It sucked. And we got lucky. That's, that's what happened. Okay. Anyway. Yeah. For a lot of that too. Just never on the 386 side of the end. We don't get that story. That's why you go to New Mexico. But anyway. Yeah. We're going to start playing, right, Bob? Yeah, for sure. I think so, man. I don't know. Chris, am I missing any? Well, another one. You mentioned it, but it's changing perspective. I remember one specific deer in Nevada was that, I think he was like 240 ended up, but we knew he was there and we sat on one hill for like seven days and never saw the deer. Wow. And then on like the eighth day, we decided to hike up a different ridge on the opposite side of the basin and we glassed the deer. Went down and killed the deer. Yeah.

But the deer was there the whole time and we were glassing the area he was in the whole time, but he was just back over a hill that we couldn't see him. So you glassed for seven days, never saw him. Went back to the place on day eight and killed him. And that's stupidity, doing the same thing that's never worked day after day after day. You know what I mean? But I knew he was there from the summer. We had seen him and had trail cams and whatnot, but could not freaking come up with this deer. Yeah. And how this is the best vantage point there is. It was the best vantage point there is. There was no better vantage point. We felt like we could see the world, but there's a hundred little draws with a backside that we couldn't see. Yeah. And, and so again, in our younger years, when we're still learning and we're still learning today, but I look back on it and I'm thinking, you're an idiot.

You should have walked over there, you know, sooner than you did, but whatever. It worked out. Yeah. You know, yeah. You got to spend eight days in 110 degree weather, you know, and it, and it was a grind. Was it not a grind? It was a grind. It was a grind. So yeah, that's, that's like you said, Chris, I think the thing that sets you guys apart and it's both of you, obviously you guys are there a lot, but just willing to grind it out and bash your head against the wall for eight days. And then just like the epiphany. Oh, let's, let's go check right there. And then on day eight, you guys do it. So I don't think part of, I think part of this too is like, if you scouted your guts out, let's just say you've scouted your guts out. You feel like you, uh, know what's there. You've got your hit list and then guys that give up on day two and just, they're just going to go hunt new country.

What's the chances you're going to find the buck you want. If you've scouted your guts out throughout the summer and you haven't found a buck in this other country, what's the chances you're just going to randomly come across one of these bucks that you want. Yeah. So slim to none. So you need to hunt what you know, you need to hunt where, you know, they live. Even if it's terrible and it's a grind day after day after day, you have to continue to grind unless there's a lion or something crazy. And that's happened. Most likely that deer's alive. He's just beating you. He's beating you right now. And you've got to figure it out. Um, you know, one, one last story. I knew you guys probably ready for bed. No, but anyway, I'm teasing you. I'm ready for bed. Um, anyway, um, I had a, you know, I used to back in the day when I was young, I'd hunt the mornings, hunt the evenings.

And in the desert, there's no other reason to hunt in the middle of the day. I mean, I'd go back to camp, chill out. I had a client. He was, he, and he's a great guy called the other day. I'm going, we're still really good friends. And he smashed a great buck with me. But he, one day he's like, why do we go back to camp? Why are we going back to the motel? Whatever. Right. We had out of motel times. We hunted back to camp. We were in a camp trip at that time. Why do we go back to camp in the middle of the day? I said, you don't understand. Like Nevada's terrible. In the middle of the day, nothing's going on. Let's do something. He's like, let's do something. I'm like, okay, and it goes back to this theory that I just told y'all. Hunt bucks you know about. And otherwise, you know, don't go learn new stuff, right? But this was, this was before trail cameras.

This was before 35 millimeter cameras and whatnot. And I said, and I said, okay, fine. And I got ticked and we got in the truck and we just would get at each other a little bit. And I'm going into this country and it was new country for me. Hey, there's no trail cameras. You can only scout so much, you know, you only glass so much. And a lot of that country where we were at was flat and thick and with a few burns. We're going through it. And I'm, I'm, and the only thing I know how to do in the middle of day is track. Um, and so, you know, cause the deer generally bedded. So I've got my head out the window and I see this freaking giant track, like just a giant. And he's coming in. It's obvious. He's coming in and out of this burn on the tree line. And, and, and, uh, I'm just like, there's a freaking giant track.

And, um, the next morning we were set up right there coming in and out and we smashed a great buck and it was the bucket had to be the buck. There's it's in low, low deer density area. And all of that came because we were driving around the middle of the day looking for tracks. I'm just saying there's things you can do. And you, sometimes you feel like you're wasting time, but just do something Colorado in the, in the middle of the rut, deer rut in the middle of the day, go out, just be out, just be out a lot. Spend a lot of time, right? Sometimes it's hard and sometimes you want to go back and take a nap or whatever, but just be out. Sometimes you never know what it's going to bring. Um, but don't leave. I guess I don't, I want to leave with this is don't leave bucks you know about.

If I'd have known about another, you know, giant or something like that, I, I would have probably stuck with it. But we were at, that was a, that particular year was a drought year and it was just, it was just a tough year. And so anyway, didn't know what it was going to end up, what it was going to turn into. And it turned into a great buck and a great ending. And we were heroes and all as well. Right. But, uh, wouldn't have happened if, uh, if he wouldn't have got on me and you just learn, you just learn as time goes on. There's a lot of mistakes. I've done all the years and I continue to do. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, uh, I mean, I think that's it. We got a bunch more questions, but we'll, we'll, uh, we'll leave those for next time. Thank you guys so much for, for joining us and, and talking deer. And of course, uh, applying around the, uh, around the, the West there.

How many States are left to apply for? Maybe that's how we'll leave it right. There is what the majority of States are left. Okay. So, I mean, you know, this, this will be out after, uh, the Utah deadline and whatnot, but the majority of States are left. You've, we've done, you know, Wyoming elk and Arizona's, you know, elk and antelope's done and whatnot. But generally speaking, Wyoming sheep, goat, moose, uh, but generally speaking, the majority of stuff's left. So everybody should be applying. Yeah. I've got plenty of time. Yep. Why don't you want to tell everybody where they can find your business? Okay. You can go to epic outdoors.com. Give us a holler at four, three, five, two, six, three, zero, seven, seven, seven. Don't send a fax. We don't accept fax. No facts and pages. Nope. It's all done with that. All right.

Also follow us on social media, epic underscore hunts and also epic underscore optics. Perfect. Oh yeah. You guys do, uh, uh, dealers for all sorts of optics, correct? Yeah, we do. We're the best prices out there. If you guys need something, let me know. If anybody out there needs something, give us a holler, give us a try. It doesn't hurt. It's just a phone call, but we do sell optics. Um, it's kind of a natural. It's what we've made our living doing and, and whatnot. So anyway, if you're looking for something, absolutely. It's a holler. It's a good time of year to be, uh, dialing in equipment and getting ready for spring bear. So yeah. Alrighty. Well, thank you guys so much. And, uh, thanks everyone for tuning in and listening to this episode and we'll catch you next week. Thanks guys. Thank you.