EP 289: Q&A Part 3, Epic Dating, Mule Deer Growth Patterns, and Reopening Old Wounds

Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour.

Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, Devin Archibald, Josh, Paul, John Peterson. How y'all doing today? Doing good. Logan. Not to forget you. I was wondering if you were going to get me. How the heck are you doing, boss? I'm doing real good. Tell us about the dating life. In Southern Utah. Really? Why not? Why not? Dude, are there any hot broads here in Southern Utah? I thought the dating life goes on pause from like August to December. It's hunting season. You just can't get married from August to September. Oh, okay. Then your wedding anniversary is. I don't think nothing's on pause for these. Just put them through the seasons, bud. That's right. Make sure they go through the season of two or three. Devin did that. Oh, yeah. Tested it good. Then he got married right before the next season. Yeah. And then you find yourself 20 years later.

They don't even care if you make up for Thanksgiving anymore, Logan. They'd rather not have you there. Me and my wife had a verbal contract. Really? Yeah. We agreed to 90 days. 90 days of hunting. She could handle. Hunting, fishing, and gathering? I blew through that the first year. Wait. It was a cause for a timeout. The first three months? 90 per year? Well, 90 per year. Oh, okay. I don't know what counts. Hunting. I don't know what counts. Who counts? 90 days? Does she count or you count? Well, I mean. Does she still count? I'm sure she counts. Does she still count? No. Well, you know. I've seen her. Do they have a clicker or do they just say, ah, why? No, she counted. She counted for a little while. Yeah, but not anymore. Not 27 years later. I don't think she does. You're almost up to 27 years. But I don't really want to answer it. Here's the answer. I know she knows.

I know she knows. My office is right next to her. She has a drawer. I'm like, oh, is Jason coming in today? She's like, no. Calls out this little silver thing. And I see it go. Puts it back in the drawer and slides it shut. Kind of like that. So I'll try and keep an eye on that to let you know where you're at. She's awesome. We've had some healthy discussions. We're like the clickers at Disneyland or somewhere. Yeah. 90 days. 90 days. We sold verbal contracts. Do hold up in the court of law. Okay. If you want to lose 75% of your assets after you get married, violate that verbal contract. We'll just work on getting a higher number. Because here in Utah, you're going to get 75% boss. All right. Well. Okay. Should we get going? All for the fun. You never did answer that question. I know I didn't. But is it going? I was trying to weasel my way out. Is it going? Or is it? Yeah. It's good.

Is it idling? Dating life's good? Idling or going? It's going. It's going good. Whoa. Have you had a few bites? Whoa. Are you trolling? That sounded more like it's going good. It does not. That is not. Are you down deep for the lake trout? Or where are we at? I don't even know what that means. I don't know what it means either. I don't know. Just don't hit the carp. No, I mean. Whatever. Don't hit carp. Just stay at lake trout. I just don't know. Are we up at the kid's pond and just getting the easy ones? Or what are we doing? I don't think I can. Are we going for the gold? Or what are we doing? I don't know what any of these metaphors mean. Bluegill? Just the easy ones? It'll bite a bear hook? We go up for birds. By the old severe river carp. Logan's in trouble when a girl goes on a date and asks her if she's a bluegill. Are you a bluegill? Just avoid the catfish, brother.

Don't be catfished. Don't be catfished.

Have you ever been catfished? Yeah. Really? What does the urban dictionary say catfishing is? Well, there's different kinds. You could be catfished. You could think a girl is or looks one way and then she's not. Okay. Or else. That's what I always thought. Or it could be a fictitious person. Yeah, that's not catfished. Or what? You could be talking to a man? The old man tight tail. One time I was on dating apps and I matched with this girl and she was really pretty and we were talking and we had orchestrated to hang out. And it was a dude. I pull up to the apartment and one of my best buddies from Minersville comes out of the door and gets in my truck. He says, I'm Samantha. I'm ready to go. So he had created a fake profile and was talking to me. To trap you. Yeah. Did he know it was you? Uh-huh. Did he know it was you? He was trolling you.

He did it just to prank me because he knew that I was. I don't know. He might have said that he was just pranking you, but he might be a weird dude. Test in the waters. He might be a weird dude. He's my roommate now, so I hope that he wasn't. Now they live together. Moved in. It was so fun. It was a perfect match. It was a great day. It was a perfect match. We're bowling in it. That dating apps. Had a pastrami burger. That dating app knew what it was doing. That didn't have the intended effect. In fact, they now participate in synchronized bowling. We've lived together for two years.

Logan. I meant that I had forgiven him for catfishing. Got me a sturgeon. If your potential girl says, I love 200-inch deer, you're talking to a dude. If they say, hey, my future husband is going to be able to hunt 180 days a year without any problem. That's not real. Don't take the bait. That's a sturgeon. Okay. I'm speechless. Jason, next time you ask this question, you better be prepared for the truth. Okay? There's some wild stuff. That's what I like about the Marshalls. They can't lie. They can't lie. It's going pretty good. Yeah, really? Thanks for asking. He matched up with the dude and they lived together. And now they're catfishing. They're a catfishing pair. Catfishing. Probably catfishing chicks. Who knows? Who lives with the dude that catfished me? I mean, wow. Play some music or something. This is a made-for-TV movie. Hallmark. Jeez. Hallmark should be calling. That's right.

I'm going to give you five bucks. I should pay for this entertainment. This is a good idea. I do take tips. Oh, my gosh. Wow.

Well, moving right along. Let's move into part three of Q&A. Moving right along. I like it. You want to thank our sponsors for kicking off here? Thank you to our sponsors. Thanks to Under Armour. They sponsor everything we do. We appreciate them. We also appreciate all of our sponsors that support us here at Epic Outdoors. We have them on the podcast here and there with dedicated podcasts with them and talk about all the things they're doing. We're going to have a few of those coming up here shortly, namely a few gun companies, a couple of gun companies, as well as PhoneScope. Looking forward to having them, talking to them. Seeing what all they've got going as we get started here in the hunting season. It is August. Don't forget Match.com and Farmers Only or whatever. Logan, tell me what the top dating app is. I just, the last one I was using was Mutual. I just deleted it. Did you?

You got catfished one too many times. Yeah, I just got sick of it. Too many carp on that side. So what's the next one? Do you use the farmers? No. No, people.

Nowadays. Nowadays.

Nowadays, the kids use Tinder, Bumble, and Mutual. I would say in Utah are the most popular. It's kind of like forums, you know. The forums, whoever came out the first and was really followed, they just, they have a following. Like the 90s or so. Here's the test. Did your roommate make you delete the app? Whoa. No, but he strongly suggested it and threatened to move out. He asked me why you need an app on my phone anymore.

It's an open relationship. I love it. Should we get on to some questions? Let's get on to something. Hair starting down the road. We talked about my wife. We talked about my wife. I'm just kidding. She's calling. Can we talk to her? Yeah. Yeah. We haven't talked to her in a while. You're on your own. Hey, you're on the Epic Outdoors podcast. Let me care for what you say. Hi, Jenna. I'll call you later. No, I got a question for you. What? Do verbal contracts, when you first get married, when you get married and you have a verbal contract, do they hold up in the court of law? 27 years later.

If they do, you're in trouble. And what would I be in trouble for? A lot of things that we verbally contracted that you didn't hold up for. What do you remember that we contracted about? That you wouldn't have more than 90 days. No!

Hey, have a winner. I don't think you've kept any of those.

Hey, babe, we're going to talk a little bit later.

All right. All right. Appreciate you. Talk soon. All right. Bye. Jeez. Jason, she's driving home. You can get your assets right now. You guys help me hide a few things. I can hold on to some of your cash. Oh, no. No, no. No, no. Oh, no. Oh, grief. That was mean. I don't even know if that's fair. The truth hurts, boss. She's not forgotten. You answered. All right. Let's move on. All right. What do we got going on here? Here's the reader guy. Question reader guy. Cameron underscore Corley says, do big bucks move often following best feed or do big bucks stay in a local area with average feed?

I think it depends on a lot of things. You know, depends on the predation in the area. Do they, or the pressure of hunters, like they'll, they'll go on average feed if they feel or in a safer environment. I agree. I think, I think where they live is where they want to live unless something really, really disturbs that. Yeah. Predators, too much hunting pressure or people. Or the other thing is then the biological go out. You get too late into the year, they're going to move because of feed, you know, but that's, that's kind of migratory related. We're talking, let's say from June to September, they're going to, they're going to stay in their core. That's my, that's my, that's my two cents. Whether the feed's good, bad, or whatever. We'll say July. July, I'm not going to say June, July, July to September. Yeah. Yeah. And it's totally deer dependent.

I've found a deer that have lived right next to each other within a mile of each other. And one will migrate 70 miles and the other one stays and lives that mile his entire life. Doesn't matter what it looks like, the feed, the pressure, whatever. He lives in that one mile square. Knows it, lives it, that's his home. And he's eating healthy enough. And makes it to eight years old. Like you can't, you can't be killed. Like they just, depends on the deer. So it just totally depends. If they feel safe, obviously. And you got, you know, good feed. What, I mean, if all you had to do is eat, drink, and be merry. You know what I mean? You're going to go where the feed's good. You're going to, as long as you feel safe. But there's avoiding people, predators, all those others. And water distribution sometimes do. Yeah. In years. So that can make them do a crazy thing. Who knows?

I know Cameron's out in the middle of a lot of that desert country. And, you know, anyway, it's a good question. But, man, you can find them anywhere. I learned that wherever you see a coyote, you can find mule there. And it's the most. Some of that stuff's moonscape down there. Northern Arizona stuff out, you know, across the Navajo Reservation, whatever. There's deer out there. And you think there's no feed, but they live. You know what I mean? Are you saying coyotes and mule there can live in harmony? No. I don't think so. Harmony's plus or minus. Okay. So last podcast we learned magpies. You look for magpies. And this podcast we learned you look for coyotes. If coyotes exist, which they exist everywhere, mule there can exist. I contend that. I've seen under the Vermilion cliffs. I mean, you know what I mean? There's some places you're just thinking. There shouldn't be deer here.

There shouldn't be deer here. In the Navajo places, there's a lot of those. No self-respecting deer would live here. And they do.

Not much near the springs because that's where the people are. Yeah. And they eat the deer. But, you know. Yeah. But anyway, they can and will. All right. Moving along. Dmensch54 says, how to prepare for Colorado unit 21 second season. Never been to this unit. Yeah. Well, if you can go early, I think you can learn the road system well. You know, and you get cranking. But those deer, they do migrate a little bit. On that, you know, that south end of the 30, 21 boundary, they'll summer and then they'll migrate north. You know, they'll spill off both sides. But the 21 deer will migrate north. And anyway, how do you scout a migration? You know. And it's not a major migration. But I think to prepare for it is get a comfortable truck seat because there's a lot. Two-track roads and oil and gas roads. And just lots of that. You're covering so much country. Just.

It's not about who can hike the farthest. I mean, there is some of that oil spring wilderness. And some of that stuff is definitely hikeable. And there's plenty of that. But you want to cover the most country you can, I find, in a lot of these. Yeah. Just learning where you can get access where you can't is huge. Yeah. Yeah. So, this is one of those you would go two days early. You know, you'd go two days early and crank. I don't know. Anybody have any, very similar to 22 or something. Anybody have any other thoughts on how you'd prepare? Six to eight seconds would be similar. Those are, we'll call them kind of high desert-ish type units that time of year. They're not, there's no 10,000 foot plus country in 21 or 22. So, you know, you don't have to eliminate that stuff. If it's, it's pinyon juniper sagebrush. Yeah. A lot of two trackers.

Could be hunting some resident type deer that don't go anywhere too. Yeah. Some of that stuff. Well, yeah. So, there's river bottoms. But a lot of that has got some private in it. But those deer that live there year round, and there's some legit. It's, it's fun. It's one of the funnest units to hunt. It's so fun. And this year, yeah, I guess, I don't know. Some of that stuff may have got hit a little bit with some of that winter stuff up that way. It did have a hard winter. So, you may, I wouldn't go expecting to see tons and tons of deer. Not saying they all died, but in this year in particular. They didn't all die. But, and there is, it is known for seeing quite a few deer. But like you said, you just, we just don't know the full effects of what that looked like. You know what I mean?

What do you got, Bronson? Nothing. Oh. Next question. Sounds good. I like it. Marty M721 says, what type of training do you guys do prior to fall? Devin does tough runners. Devin? Yeah, I'll do a Spartan race. Yeah. Yeah. Stuff like that. Not I said, Adam.

I golf. Hey, that's, how many steps you get a day? 18,000? I do a lot. We're cranking. We're hacking. And I like to golf, and I walk. I walk golfing. Me and other upper 40s dudes that need a little extra burning. And it doesn't do much. But I, admittedly, I train harder than yours. I have something early, like a sheep hunt or something up north. Like, I can't just show up. But I like hiking the mountain. I know that's really old-fashioned. But, I mean, I like using my boots. And I like up and down, up and down. You know, that. You know, you use different leg muscles going steep up. Then you do steep down. You got to use them both. When I feel like I need to, I'm not a go-to-the-gym guy. I have everything in my house that I need to do it for. And I like to work out when I want to work out with any weights or free stuff. In my house, I'm not going to the gym.

You're never going to see me ever with a selfie. I have a Stairmaster. I have a Stairmaster at my house. I got those. The Glorified, whatever it's called. Whatever. The new ones are called. I got them a couple years ago. Yeah. By request for Thanksgiving or Christmas. Thanks. Yeah. Look at my head. I have a Stairmaster, elliptical weights, whatever. But everything's at my house because you're never going to see me with a selfie in a gym. I promise that. Yeah. But we're out in the hills a lot, running cameras, hiking our guts out. Josh, you were hiking the top. Glassing. When I would work to Henry's hard, just the glassing knobs that you'd hike to there would get me in shape. I'd have a month hard of scouting. And, of course, that was in my mid-30s to 30s, 40s. It's getting a little different. Yeah. But, anyway. I think you touched on one about the downhill.

That's really hard to be ready for. Yeah. You've got steep downhill. Yeah. And running. Different parts of your plots. I've ran a lot before. One year I ran a lot. And I thought I was going to be a hero. Yeah. Running doesn't do anything for you. And I've guided marathon runners and all that. It's not the same. The only way to be ready to hike is to hike. We had a marathon runner guy do the Frank Church. And, I mean, it was like he wasn't even ready for it. Use a lot more of your butt muscles and stuff like that, hiking. And all that. Then you do running. You know what I mean? You lose a lot more of your legs, calves, hamstrings, all that. But, anyway. I like to hike with weight on. That's probably my favorite. That's what I do. Yeah. I've done that, too. I get on with an Stairmaster with a pack. Yeah. You know. All right. Moving on, Nick. I guess we're. Turn the page. Yeah. All right.

Matthew underscore five says, how long do you scout a new area before moving on? Not seeing the size of buck you want. This totally depends on the area. Like, if you're in an area that you know is full of deer, but it's thick and tough and there's a lot of different classing knobs and one, I'm just going to take you a little longer, if you're just, if you're in an area you can see really well and you feel like you're seeing 80%, you know, in a morning, in an evening, in another morning or something, I'm freaking moving. You know what I mean? But a lot of guys, they, I'm a running gun. We can go around the table. I'm a run and gun. I hit so hard. And if I'm seeing 70% or something, I'm freaking on the move. There's some guys that want to see 100%, bed it all out, and then move to the next area. Sometimes you don't have enough days during hunt or scouting season to do that. Yeah.

Or, but one thing I will say is when you find a buck, whether you've seen a trail cam, a picture of him, you've seen him one time. I lock on and don't leave. And now you go back five times and don't see him, still don't move. It's totally different, but I learned, I learned from that. I'm like, I've been here five straight times and haven't seen this deer and I know he's here. And so it's hard, it's easier a little bit to spend a little more time in another area than that you haven't seen him the first four times. You're like, well, there's gotta be something here. Sometimes you have a gut feeling. Sometimes you're wrong. A lot of times you're wrong. Sometimes you're right. It pays off. So you gotta go with your gut depending on how much time you have prior to your hunt, how long the hunt is. You got a five day season.

You can't just grind a glassing knob out unless you know something there. Right. It's hard. You gotta keep moving. Push the pace. Yeah. So I push it. I push it personally. Devin, what do you do? Same. I would rather risk missing something and cover more area. Another thing I'll do is if I go back to the same spot a second time and I see all the same bucks I saw the first time, I'll hit that even faster and I'm moving on. Like, hey, there's no... But then I look back at Buster and I think I see him all. I see all the bucks he was running with. I actually could have killed a few of the better bucks he was running with, but he was the one long range and had I not known he was there, I'd have moved on, never thought another thing about it. So you learn stuff, right? Yeah. And we do miss the big ones, but what were you saying? It's like... Oh, I just... You always say, don't, like...

Don't watch a deer you're not gonna kill for 25, 30 minutes. Yes. You just gotta go. Don't. I mean, you're not... He's not gonna grow in front of your eyes. If he's not what you really want, move. Yeah. Especially in the summer. I mean, minutes. I mean, I've seen a lot of bucks this year. Just, I had two, three minutes left. One more spot and there he was. Yeah. So, I don't know. Minutes matter, especially in the early season. Minutes matter. Wow. That rolls off the tide. That's pretty good. I like it. Minutes matter. Gives me anxiety. I love it when I'm out there. Like, I gotta go. I gotta go. I gotta go. Especially in the summer months when it's getting hot and you're like, I only got until 8, 8, 30, and then it's done. 10 hours of heat and misery. It is misery. Now you can't even check truck cameras in the middle of the day. You're gonna drive around and look for buck trucks.

You shoot your bow for 10 hours around camp? Yep. So, no. No. Get stoved up. Kind of panic mode, but I love that. Okay. I like it. Josh, what do you think? Yeah, I don't, I guess the trigger for me was just when you start feeling like you're seeing either the same number or the same deer, same buck, then it's time to go. But there's obviously, just like Adam said, I know there's areas and you have to look at the same deer and the same bucks, unfortunately, because there is something there that you know of. But if you haven't found that something, then yeah, just keep going. Tell the buck on the Henrys that way. I once found the deer August 1st, would see him about every two weeks and I'd go look for him every time. And it was two weeks before the rifle hunt. I had a client coming in. Hadn't seen the deer. Still couldn't see the deer.

I mean, we're talking eight or 10 days of glassing there. Opening deer, day the deer steps out right where we've been looking. We're pounding. 245 inches. It was worth staying for. I knew he hadn't moved. And he was right there. That's the problem I have is if you have one target buck, one target buck, and you don't find him, and you can't find him, what are you going to move on to? Like, you've scouted all summer. You have one target buck. Like, you going to just randomly go find another one? Like, so for me, even though it sucks, you've got to. Just like Buster. 28 or something. Yes. You said, like, he's big enough. Like, he's consuming you. Yeah. That's what you want to hunt for. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, so I can move on. And what am I going to do? Probably not. Stumble on to another 220, 30 buck. No. No. 230 is 34 or 5 inch. Fight mass. Well, fight mass. Keep going. Cheaters.

Extra guards. And just a butt belly. Anyway. All right. So anyway, there you have it. So yeah, I guess everything kind of depends. But I feel like a lot of the successful guys out there have a attention deficit disorder. Like, they're very fast and the calm collected. There's something to be said for that. There's something. The guys are really successful. The calm collected guys. But sometimes I think sometimes to a fault, they can be too calm, too collected, too methodical. And it just feels like the guys that are hyper and crank hard tend to have a little more success on average. I'm just, this is a gut feel. I don't even need to take surveys or nothing. I'm just, I'm a gut feel. You guys feel that way? I think she put a poll on Instagram.

All right. So when this comes out. Do you take Ritalin before glassing? Do you have ADD and do you feel like it's, maybe that's, maybe that's one positive from the ADD disorder. Or while you're glassing one spot, as you're glassing, you're already thinking I should probably be over there. Yes. That's my problem. I think guys are always thinking. There's too many places that you want to be at one time. But those kind of, those type of personalities are always thinking. They're just thinking outside the box. They're not content. And I don't know. Sometimes I wonder if it doesn't help them a little bit. All of a sudden you got three tires at work, one truck wheel that's flat. Those guys are always a wreck. They're fun to be around. Tell me, so Josh, question reader guy, social media guy, I guess we'll do that poll when this comes out. How about that? We'll do that.

Interesting to see the wording of that question. See if we lead you to the answer the way we want it to be answered or not. Any surveyor, any quality surveyor knows how to do that. All right. Keep going. Start a question with a statement. Has everybody answered? Did everybody answer that? Yeah. John, same kind of thing. Yeah, I don't know if there's a right answer. It just depends. Gut feel. Sometimes you're one way, but like you said, it depends on what you've seen and what the situation is. Yeah. All right. I like it. Okay. KBS 406 says, do deer that are grown out further than others in an area stop a few weeks earlier?

Yes. Deer do. There's some three to four weeks different in deer growing. We see it every year. They killed a 280 in Nevada August 1st. And we have deer that are 40 inches from being done. Yeah. Others. Yeah. And that deer could have still grown just a little bit. Some of the guys that were standing there said, you know. It looked pretty done. Yeah. It did. But he's like, put on another five inches or something. Yeah. You know what I mean? There's other deer that are going to put on 30. You can see bucks that are running together. And you think the little one is just whatever. And then all of a sudden, August 10th, he's bigger than your first deer. Do you remember Pipes? That deer we hunted in Nevada. And we ended up killing him with a guv tag. Anyway, he went 227 or whatever. But he was always early every year consistent.

That deer specifically was the first deer that was finished that I ever found every single year. In, like, July 1, he'd be 205 or something. Like, I would be like, he was just mind-blowing. It was every year I could count on him being the most developed deer of any of the other deer I ever had. I was just going back. When I was going through trail cameras and putting photos in folders and all that, I was looking back at previous years in Nevada. I've got to show you this buck when I get back to my computer. But it was July 3rd or something. Just towering developed buck. Like, that deer doesn't exist this year in Nevada on July 3rd. It didn't exist. No. And it's just shocking how sometimes year to year. But all things being equal, I do think there are deer that are always earlier than other bucks. Right? Or always later than other bucks.

But like you said, then there's some environmental factors that factor into it. That might set everything back roughly the same. But still, that deer is still more ahead than others. Whether he was an early fawn or a bigger fawn or whatever makes him that way. Versus another deer that was, you know, born later or whatever and is a little bit later. But you go to a place like the Henry's or places where there's a lot of bucks that you get to see a lot of deer. You see the wide variation. You'll see deer that are three to four weeks difference in developmental. And the ones that are ahead, they just stop earlier. Well, it's the same as deer shedding. Sometimes you've got 200-inch bucks that hold them until March. And you're like, what's going on? Some that shed at the end of January. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You just never know. Very good. Okay. Catch your breath before this question, Josh. Yeah.

Speed reads something. There's a period in there. Okay. Colton Roger says, do you guys think that long-range hunting has had a large impact on the overall number of animals and more specifically the reduction of mature bucks slash bull on the landscape year to year? This isn't limited to just rifles but also bows slash muzzleloaders that shoot way farther than they could ever five to ten years ago. There are a lot of bucks slash bulls being killed or wounded at 400 yards plus. That would probably have made it in the past. After speaking to fishing game officers at a meeting earlier in the year about it, he said that while flying this winter, the deer slash elk population counts, he said he saw more wounded deer and elk than he ever had before and attributed it to long-range hunting and all the hype around it. What are your thoughts on that?

And at what point do hunters advocate for putting a hunt back into hunting instead of long-range shooting? Put emphasis on learning slash teaching how to stalk effectively and kill them close. Thanks. Okay. There's a lot here. Yeah. There's a lot here. I think we should just start at the top and work one by one. What do you think? Yeah. Do you guys think that long-range hunting has had a large impact on the overall number of animals and more specifically the reduction of mature bucks and bulls on the landscape year to year? So what do you think? Josh, start with you. Start with me.

Overall number? No. I don't think so. On a scale, there's so much more that are taking care of deer than the thousand deer tags that are issued to our deer on a unit. When it comes to mature bucks, mature bulls getting killed, I think it is impacting those. Yes. It's giving guys the ability to target and kill a mature buck or bull that they don't have to put as much work in to get killed if they can sit back on a ridge and kill him. Okay. So there is an argument out there that's saying, well, overall success is the same regardless of technology, for example. So it doesn't hold water to say that, you know, equipment affects success rates. And your point is, yeah, but let's define success rates. Success on an older age class animal is increased with technology. Versus I had a four-power scope and if I saw a buck, I better shoot it because I got a four-power scope.

And so he was successful on a 3x4. On paper, he's still successful. Or he could have held out for a 26-inch 4x5 or whatever, $280 buck, $190 buck, whatever. He could hold out knowing that his new technology would help him be successful on the last day on the buck that he saw. Yeah. You know what I mean? You could maybe extrapolate that a little bit to the other weapons too. I mean, bows are more effective, muzzleloaders are more effective, whether you can use scopes or whether you can't. They are than they were 20, 30 years ago when we were kids. If you're going to walk out the door and you have an open-site muzzleloader or a turreted muzzleloader and you've got a good setup that you're comfortable with. They're both legal. They're both legal. What are you going to grab? Or a longbow. Versus? Versus a compound bow, sights and everything else. Sights and setup and wazooed out. I mean.

There are purists that like to just. Oh, there's purists. And I've used them for fun. But I mean, you know what I mean. Yeah. Just for. And the reason why is because you feel like you're more effective. If you see an animal, you have a better chance of killing it. If you see an animal you want, you have a better chance of killing it. So that could lead us to the next part of this question. You do feel like you have a better chance of killing it, which maybe you contend that with the old flintlocks or the old bows, old rifles, that maybe you felt like you, maybe you would wound more. Okay. Because you're not as effective. And so that's the other thing. There's another argument. People are saying, well, all these long range, you know, are allowed for more animals to be wounded because people are taking shots they shouldn't and they're not really trained to do.

And then there's some people that are saying, yeah, like a long range, let's call it a long range company would argue that the better equipment you have, the more chance you have of harvesting that animal ethically. Instead of lobbing and praying bullets that you don't even know. How many times were we and our families involved in lobbing and hoping and praying? Lots of it. Without even knowing how to watch an animal or have some spot or watch just if you hit it and or walking over there. And having cold calculated kills. We have a lot of calculated kills nowadays. Yeah. So I think there is a little bit of both. A lot of gray area in both areas. And it's hard for me to say whatever this survey, this guy I talked to, so the survey saw whatever he saw, limping deer and elk. And it has to be the long range. I don't think he can say that. Well, and it's so, yeah.

You can't just say that's the cause. It could be unique to that flight and it just so happened that's the way it was. Whatever, right? Yeah. Why are they limping? I don't know. And maybe, you know, maybe. But it also may be just fitting an agenda. Maybe they're hypersensitive to it. And that biologist is just, it's on everybody's mind because we're talking about technology in all the states. And that's his opinion. And so he's going to, yeah. And his opinion is. And then he's seeing. No matter what he sees. He saw three of them limping or five of them limping in a one day, you know, eight hours of flying. He's convinced. That's my point. That's my point. Because I think it's on everybody's mind right now. We're hyper-focused on. What I think has happened is we've gone through this drought and we've gone through winter kills both. Depending on the states you're in.

Our numbers are way down. Numbers are way down. And we want change. We're sick of it. We want change. Change. Well, you can't affect that. But you can affect what technologies we use and the effectiveness of rifles, gun, muzzleloaders, and archery equipment. And we, you know, we can affect tag numbers. And we can affect season dates. And we can. There are things that we can do. And we can affect the use of trail cameras, even though we love them. We can affect the use of thermal and all of these other things or range findings. Like one of our, you know, co-workers was talking about, just eliminate the rangefinder. You'd fix everything. The archers would be affected evenly compared to muzzleloaders, affected compared to rifle hunters. But then you take a guy like Josh. He's trained himself for four years. He could look at a rock at 550 and be within plus or minus five yards. He'd be.

I mean, I've taken him along. I want. He's my human rangefinder. Spotter. Spotter. Spotter. And we're even, Utah even wants to eliminate spotters or, you know, because it's gone to this length. Not necessarily that people are against spotters or guides or anything. It's just we're kind of at a low of populations. And populations are mature. Everything's on. Yeah. And the challenge. Hyper scrutinizing. And the challenge is what can you, I'll use the word easily or effectively or definitively, black and white, what can you define? Define. In short order. Yeah. Like. You can take no scopes on muzzlers. Okay. And we can do that in one year. We can make that change. No thermal. No trail chemist. And we're trying to help the animals. That's what everybody's wanting. You start talking about scopes can be three to nine, but not 12 to 14. Rifles, you can't shoot over 500 yards.

How do you govern those things? It needs to be an easily defined limit. Black and white. The rifle is honestly. About everything. The rifle has the biggest advantage. Obviously has the most, you know, the cartridges, the bullets, the rangefinders, you know, with the dope, with your load and the dial turrets. But it's also, in my opinion, the hardest thing to black and white regulate. Where do you, where do you cut it off? Let's just say open sight rifles, which, I mean, we haven't used those for 70 years. Say a three-day rifle season. It's not even realistic because, so we can argue about that, right? You could argue that we need to go back to 30-30s, but are you going to win that fight? Is that ever realistically going to be the regulation? No. So don't talk about it. Don't talk about it. But maybe season length on something like that? Maybe electronics incorporated into rifle scopes?

You know, that's easily regulated. That's been pretty talked about, I think, in a lot of places. I know you can't have an automatic holdover adjustment based on the range built into your scope. But it's a tough one. But we're saying, and then also we're talking a lot about primitive weapons. What, what, is it primitive to have a turreted muzzleloader? No, it's making rifle hunters being willing to pick up a muzzleloader. To hunt earlier or later seasons, whatever. Yeah, and like you said, we talked about this, we talked about the five-day rifle elk hunt. It doesn't really matter because now I've got the muzzleloader hunts. It's a 12-day turreted muzzleloader hunt. It's still a rifle hunt. The next day, like, and off you go. Yeah. Is that really going to, I wonder if it's really going to change the number of big bulls killed on Utah. No.

Because you cut the tags on the early rifle down and cut it five days. But you got 12 days with a muzzleloader and then another high-powered rifle hunt for another 13 days right after that. So for 25 days. For the mid-rifle. You're hunting the mid-rifle. You're hunting that. And yeah, it's kind of a post-rut, but it's still kind of tail end of the rut. And I think part of this is because it's so hard to change. People are so passionate that, you know, they don't want to. It's hard to take things away. You've been able to use this, and now you take that back. You know, that's hard. It needed, in a perfect world, it needed more. Drastic. More weighing, balancing out, weighing out the consequences plus and minuses before some of this change. Let's take scopes on muzzleloaders in Utah. Well, okay, sounds good. I'm going to freaking load up my muzzleloader. Well, okay.

The time to really have that serious talk was 2016 or whenever that happened. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Back when we went from one-power scopes to multiple-power scopes. You know? Yeah. And you've got other states in New Mexico that have gone back. They've won their, you know, they've gone back to open sight. And New Mexico, if you remember, New Mexico was one of those states that basically, anything that basically said muzzleloader on it was legal. There was not very much that was illegal about a muzzleloader in New Mexico. Yeah. And same thing with Arizona. Like, same thing with Kansas. You remember all the, I mean, anyway, we were. Utah was plus or minus similar like it until. Similar with the one-power scope. And then gradually we've just kind of wanted to use some of those things like you've wanted to.

But then at some point when the times become tough, you've got the droughts, winter kills. Then everything's under scrutiny. Yeah. We get three, four years of awesome weather and all that. The last thing we might be talking about is, all right. When there's bucks, bucks, bucks for everyone, nobody cares what you use because we all have big bucks. We all have a buck. Right. What I, anyway. Yeah. So, you have a, John? I have a, I, I, I, I, I am totally wrong. This is going to be good. My opinion is wrong. Just cut it right now. I get it. Just cut it. What minute are we at? 36, 39. Some of it kind of bugs me that I kind of wish they would cut tags. And instead of, let's issue more tags, make everyone less effective and more unhappy. Okay. So, this is, this is, but I love this argument. I know. I love this argument. I, you're right because there's a lot of people that think that.

So, let's just take our scenario just a little bit deeper. If you don't regulate technology or advancements and hunting tactics. Yeah. Let's make everybody as effective as they possibly can. So, let's just make it, let's move the needle from 30 or 40% kill to 90% kill. Right. Okay. Let's move the needle. Let's say it was 100% or whatever. Let's move, let's just make everybody, let's, you, if you're issued a tag, you're entitled. However you want, you're entitled to an animal. Yeah. You are going to issue drastically less number of tags. Yes. Under a proper management strategy. You can't kill, you can't have everybody be successful and leave tag numbers. Okay. Right. So, now, you've got draw odds that are skyrocketed because you've got to cut tags to a third. Or more. Yeah. And I'm not saying it's, like, I'm totally right. We should go to the end. It's just, it just bugs me a little bit.

The premise of, we want to cut success rates. Like you're saying, it's like the drought is doing more. However, if we have five years of great rain, it's going to do more than, than all these other little things. That's true. That's true. I don't know. And I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything and we shouldn't change here and there, but I don't know. But like you say, at some point, where is the hunt, not the hunt? Or how are we going to put the hunt back in the hunt? Yeah. And I don't know. So that dude, like, we should come up with, you know, a buck knife only hunt and you got to jump on the deer's back and slit its throat. Okay. How about for that dude? And that dude could say. But if you did that, you could offer everybody two deer tags. Everybody could have a tag. They could have two deer tags, John. Rut hunt. No, and I don't necessarily think that's right. But it's, yeah.

So I think the opposite side of that is, you have to limit success rates so we can issue a bunch of tags. Everybody has the opportunity to go out and participate as best as possible. Yeah. But it's like, wow, man, when does it stop? Or, yeah, I don't know. But it just goes to my nature of not liking regulation. You don't like government and regulation. I don't like government. Look at it in this scope real quick. 1992, archery. Those guys were hunting a primitive season with a primitive weapon. Right. Compared to 2022, what we have. I had brass pins I had to put. Exactly. I had to have white out on the tip slid stick out a little bit more. I would use my mom's. Ten minutes later. My mom's now nail polish. Nail stuff. And color those pins. Or I didn't have pins. That was a primitive weapon. And I think people did the archery back then because it was primitive.

I think if you look at that scope of where that started and those special season dates. Remember the muzzleloaders during the rut? Yeah. The muzzleloader was general deer in the rut. Everybody got an over-the-counter tag for the most part. And when we were kids. In the rut. It was a dedicated hunter. Yes. Just the deer tag. Just the deer tag. We hunted with a bow. If you didn't kill, you'd get to hunt with a rifle you didn't kill. Then you'd get to hunt the first 10 days of November with an open sight muzzleloader. And why? Because you weren't as effective at killing. Yes. And we did have more deer. We did. We had more deer. But you also were less effective. You were. We were less effective. But it's also hard. It's the same reason they can do a hams hunt in the rut. Because they know. They have a negligible impact. You've got a pump shotgun with a bead on the barrel. Or archery. Yeah.

Handgun. Open sight handgun. Open sight. Archery. Muzzleloader. Or if you take away rangefinders. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't really want to go in the field without being able to effectively kill something. I never range anything even when I have a rangefinder. So. And how many times do you squeeze me? That was that bush at 75 and it was 68. No, he's 104. I don't know. You need a Josh over your shoulder. That's right. Does that make sense what I'm saying, though? It makes sense. Like, back in the day. And as far as this guy's about the harvest and the take, I don't think it was a whole lot different. Guys were just shooting what they saw and usually it was on the run because you're walking through trees. Now everybody's up glass and shooting bucks at 600 yards. More strategic. And I think part of it now is it's changed the way we hunt.

We also are so selective because we can be because we're confident we could take something home if we want. Later. Later. Whereas before you had to kill kind of what we got in front of you. You jumped a 3x4 runner. He looked pretty good. He had red fields, 10x50s. And I'm not saying that doesn't happen now, but there is more. There was no tripod and binos. I mean, dude, tactics and technology. And then the scarcer the game gets or the more value, the more value people put on them, the more they're willing to spend. It feels like nobody has a job these days. People can spend 30 days straight. I know a kid. I met him out here. We know him. I said, how much time do you got to hunt for Nevada? And he goes, I can do a solid month. I've been saving some time off. And so I can do a solid month, if not a month and a half. I think I could do a month and a half away from what I'm doing.

He's halfway into his yearly Jason Carter quarter, 45. Well, I'm talking about weekends and holiday pay and whatever else, right? Sick leave. Who knows? I was just going to say the difference in the hunters and what they have on a limited entry unit in Utah, for example, versus like a general. If you only hunted the limited entries, you would be like, everyone here is like serious, serious. So I don't know. That would depend, too. If he's hunting constantly these premier units, you're going with some really serious guys. Really serious optics. Really serious gear. Yes. You know, and why is it that? Why do they do that? Because they're going to be more effective. And when you're more effective, it doesn't necessarily change kill rates because you're probably going to kill a deer no matter what. Most people can't go home without one. We know this from Colorado.

Even all the Utah guys have to bring home a deer no matter what. I mean, no matter what. Because they don't have one in Utah to shoot. Whatever. Yeah. We killed all ours and we need to go there. I don't know. And so, but people travel. They want to kill them. And people admit it. Even guys, friends of mine, they admit it. Like, I just wanted to kill him. They don't. And then when you go to gutting them, you're like, why did I do that? You know? This thing's positive. So, the success rates might be the same, but there's more pressure on that trophy buck. You know? And then guys are arguing, well, because there's more trophy potential or more, you know, emphasis on the trophy. The little ones get to grow up. And the other, you know, anyway, there's all kinds of counter. And I don't know that there's an exact right answer. You know? There's probably a balance here and there.

Also, I would like if they do change things and then things get really good, maybe there's, you change back. Some give and take. Like, there's some give and take and it could fluctuate. It's a hard, this is a very passionate subject. And I think people don't want to be, they've invested. A lot of people paid, what are those Garmin sites cost? Like, $1,100, $1,200? $1,200. Okay. So, a lot of people bought them and they're like, now I bought this. And they were passionate about it. They don't want to go sell it. And so, it's hard to make change once people, you know, here, we're going to give you a car to drive. Now, we're going to take your car away and give you a bike. Yeah. You know? I don't want a bike. Well, it's going to make everyone more fit. Yeah. We're going to reduce the carbon emissions from gas. Yeah. It's better for all of us. Yeah.

The air you read is going to be more healthy. I'm just saying, you know, anyway, at some point, I think we've gone so fast to being able to shoot sniper-ish. That, you know, even the guys, even guys, if you look at yourself in the mirror, you know, you know it's right. And you're just saying, and it's fine. If there's deer for everyone, it's fine. But there's not. And people are tired of half and even general tags are now taking four to six years to draw. People are over it. They're over it. They're disgusted. They don't know why. You know what I mean? And then you have droughts. And now everybody's hypersensitive. And what can you control? All you can control are these mini variables, whatever they are, right? Season dates, hunt methods, tactics, hours, whatever. And you're trying to give the game a chance. But anyway, what do you think, Josh? You've been kind of quiet.

I mean, what's the gamey in you, say? Next question.

No, I'm being serious. Did we vet this out enough? Yeah, we did. Do you believe that there was more wounded animals because of technology? No. Technology. I don't know that. People are more effective. What percentage of general season hunters do you think have serious long-range setups? I don't think it's really, really hard. But I think it's a lot better than it was in like 2008. Some of these companies are selling more rifles than I ever thought they were. I don't know. Like in the field, I'm still. A lot of three-to-9. I saw open-site 30-30s. You know, people using those on a general hunt. Like. Yeah. And maybe it's more than I think. Maybe it's more than I think. I don't know. I just don't think it's the only reason. Not everybody has. It's the only factor. And there's so many, you know, dead and wounded animals because of long range. I just don't think it's a single factor.

I was telling Devin yesterday, just the amount of stuff that dies during the hunting season would blow your mind. The stuff you have to go look at and why it died, how it died. But you would find a random doe. As an officer, you're talking. Yeah. You'd have to go. I remember several times just going and investigating a random doe on a random hillside 50 yards off of a road with a muzzleloader slugging her ribs.

Like. Somebody just shot it. Make sure her gun was on. Yeah. Somebody just got bored. Oh, my stick this gun's on site. Somebody just wanted to kill something. Whatever. Like, just the amount of stuff that dies is just mind-blowing. People are disgusting. Yeah. Just. It's just. It makes you sick, actually. That was one of the things that surprised me the most, the amount of stuff that you have to go look at that's just hunter-related deaths that never accounted for. I think that's why closing units. Sometimes guys say, how does closing units for five years bring the deer numbers back when we never had doe hunts prior to being closed? There's incidental. Incidental factors. Josh, I've never really wondered this, I guess, until you said that. But how big of a problem or an impact is poaching, actually? I mean, I think. You don't. You can't even think of somebody with a poach. Yeah.

Like, I can't even imagine it. You'd be shocked, I think. So, like, is it. I mean, is there a big percentage? I don't know. It's hard to say, but it's not going down, really. I mean, it's still a high percentage. And poaching is a big word as far as what poaching is. But there's still a lot. I mean, just.

Party hunting, even, yeah. Yeah. Crap like that. Yep. Tags and camp. But just use their gun. They don't need to die until the tags are full. I mean, same thing. New Mexico having a bear tag. Somebody has a bear tag. Somebody has an elk tag. You can both be in the field at the same time. Colorado. Colorado. It goes on. You're only going to see one good bear in a group of four. So, only one of us get a tag. Two. You know, I've seen plenty of little bucks just shot. And we're all talking 50 yards from a row and just shot in the ribs, died within seconds, and just laying there. You're like, why is this deer here? You know? And in winter range stuff, you drive around, same kind of thing. You'd get calls from guys, just be a dead deer shot. Not even antlers take in, anything like that. Maybe somebody's going to come back. Maybe somebody got scared, whatever.

But just, I wouldn't say it's significantly high, but it's still there. You get in a helicopter, take a survey, and you're like, oh my gosh, look at all these long range kills. Tell me what it was the year before. Well, I guess I just don't remember. What was it? 1992. Yeah. Because two years ago, we have the same technology we have today. Yeah. So, why didn't you notice it last year? I think because you're hyper focused on it right now because we're talking about it in committees. Yep. What are you going to say, Arch? I just, I could be totally wrong, but I don't think that. Oh, poaching. Poaching. Like, I don't think in today's age, it's worse than it was back before we had a cell, everybody had a cell phone, phone scope. You might argue it's less prominent because the thought of getting caught and throw cameras. I think so, but I could be totally wrong. I don't know. I just don't.

I don't know. My faith in humanity has got to drink down like crazy. It is. I think, but I also think in the back in the day, you could shoot a deer in November, you just quietly went to the end of the season and two weeks after you shot a buck and then pick him up. In January, you're like, yeah, I never told anybody I got like a slug this year. Okay. Well, now you say that and you say where your general tag was and somebody shows a trail camera picture of that on the Ponce. It got 200 miles. That's what I'm saying. With the amount of eyes. Now I think people just, if they're doing it, you're just, they're shutting up. We're in a networked community of hunters. They still, still trail cameras. I can't believe they have the guts to do it because with the day and age of social media and hiding cameras to watch them, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Had a couple stolen here on this general unit even and they took them twice. Maybe one year. They took them twice and found my kids' hidden camera that was going to catch them. That was going to catch them. And they know the vehicle that's taken it, but I'm just saying, you know, we're going to catch them. Next year's going to be a surprise for them. But I'm just saying, people, you would be shocked. I mean, everybody knows, they know, they would expect there's going to be other trail cameras on the road in and out or something, you know, like, and people still do it, man. They've got, I mean, hard to, shocking, shocking. Yeah. Well, we spent a good 15 minutes on that one. So let's, lots of, lots of discussion, of course. But anyway, Josh. Garrison Kinzel asks, on average, what would you say is bigger, a determining factor in most big buck harvests you see these days?

The quality of the tag or the quality of the hunter? I think that's a hard one because per capita, if you look at the Henrys or Ponsagot and all that, more people kill big bucks on those hunts than the general per tag issue. There's no question. They should. But the hunter. So the tag, the tag is better in those scenarios. But when you look at 75,000 general tags in Utah, they kill a lot of really good bucks on that too.

A lot of them are killed by great hunters. Yeah. Yeah. We know guys like, we got a good friend that's scouting a unit right now and he's met some of the other tag holders and he, and they're, they're, in their minds, they're seeing 190 to 200s everywhere. Yeah. And they're really like 170s. You know what I mean? And I think, I think the quality of hunter has a lot to do with it. And the quality of hunter, that's a little bit. So those are tough words. Hard to say. I would say, no, they could be the hunter with time. More prepared. Better glass. Yes. More how to invest into it. The better prepared hunter. I mean, and there's good, dang good hunters you wouldn't want to go up against that are, you know what I mean? But if you had to answer, answer that one way or the other, I, I think I would say if he's talking about big bucks, I would probably say in general, what we see a tag, tag, tag

trumps hunters personally. If you just look at the, but the, but does it not diminish in the people that do it? Yeah. But I'm just talking about per big deer kill. That's not even probably a comparison. Yeah. But it's also tainted because those units are set so up for success so much more right out of the gate just by drawing the tag. So it's not, you could be a less effective hunter and draw a great tag and still overachieve and kill a giant buck. Yeah. When on a general tag, you're never going to kill one. That same guy. That's true. So it's kind of. So that's what I'm saying. If you have a quality hunter in a general area, he's going to do, we got guys right here that are hunting like Southwest Desert, for example, consistently smashing giants. They're working their guts out. I've always said it's tags and time. You have to have a tag. You have to have tag or tags in your pocket.

And then the time you put in it, put in tags and time. But you could add equipment too. We could add some other thing, you know, attitude, whatever. Like, you know, there's a hundred other things. Okay. Anything to add? Devin, what do you think? Quality hunter? Quality of tag. That's tough. I think biggest determining factor for most big bucks you see, I would argue, come off of the top premier units. Yeah. Like theirs on a strip. That's where my point is. But it's also a tainted thing because you've got so few tags, high buck to doe ratio, low hunting pressure, and you set yourself up for great. So I guess the biggest determining factor for me would be the tag. Okay. If you had to pick one or the other. But I think if you have. Not to minimize. Guy A and guy B that draw a strip tag. Oh, yeah. Guy A is your serious dude that knows what he's doing and has a never quit attitude.

My money's on him. I agree. But overall. And you take them both and put them on the same general unit, you're definitely your money's on the one guy. Definitely. Yeah, for sure. But, you know, areas that are managed for big stuff, good grief. They kill them. He doesn't want that. Yeah, they kill them. Even accidentally. All right. I like it. Question reader guy. John Boer says, what hunt that you were involved in after all is said and done, were you in odd? You don't necessarily, you don't necessarily pull the trigger yourself. That's easy for me. Not even.

That was Jason. He does follow up and says, on a podcast in the spring of 2020, Jason didn't want to talk about his Alaska trick. Has his wounds healed or did it pull off? I guess it doesn't protect that question.

I was in odd, I guess you could say. I don't know that those are related. I think they're two specifically different questions. Mine would be Jason's deer, his Arizona deer, 275 deer. We talk about it weekly. At nausea. And over and over. But that, we said literally, is this ever going to happen again? We did. And we keep trying to make it. And we haven't yet. But I mean. Not that the number is what you're trying to trump. Because that's a really. I would contend that that deer, any of us in this room is going to shoot, is not going to trump that score. No. But I mean. The experience of being by yourself. Experience and the type of deer too. And by yourself. Let's just call it 230, 40 plus. I mean, that's. That drives us. And it doesn't feel like that's unattainable. It feels like it's. Yeah. Doable. But that was one for me that it was just like this.

I moved to Bonfire and sat there for like four hours. Until one in the morning. It was negative seven in the. We had to. In the bottom of the valleys here and there. It was just one of those soak it in because. And I've had a couple others with clients. You know. A few moments with me. But I mean, yeah. It's. Those are special moments. Josh. Killed a big bull. Devin. You've killed. I think we've all. You just wonder. All right. That was a good drink. When am I going to get another drink? When's the next drink like this going to happen? When I didn't pull the trigger? Yeah. Or. Yeah. The guiding the client maybe. Somebody. Oh yeah. Lots of that. Yeah. Especially the ones that like. A $3,000 two on one. And we smash a 200. Oh. You know what I mean? Something like that. Yeah. Or I like the surprise ones where you're. You know. We see a good. Early season. We'll kill it.

We end up killing a 420 bull. Yeah. On a $6,500 draw tag. By yourself. Back in the day. And that was back in the day where you could hunt by yourself. Just there was times that you're never going to get back. You realize that? And you know what? One thing you said the other day. That I've often thought about too. Is.

There. How many one-offs can you do? Like why. We go learn a new unit. You kill a buck. Or a bull. Or whatever. And then you feel like the world learns about it. Never the same. You can't end up getting a tag there again. Because there's so much demand. You've changed the demand. Because of this information age. And technology. Called the shelf life. And so you're like. Hey. How many units can you do that in? And one off them. Kill another big animal. And then you have to go start over again. And learn a new unit again. Because social media. And the world. Learned about it. And it changed it. Changed the dynamic of that hunt. Or. Or whatever. You know what I mean? Does that feel like. The day and age we live in now. Versus back in the day. You could have your favorite area for 10 years. And get that general tag. Even if you tried to keep it a secret. You tell people. They tell somebody.

They tell five people. We're so connected. And the tighter you keep it. The more it blows out. You might as well not even try. I've almost learned. It's like. You can't. Well it's why we. Like Colorado. Or another place. We hop around all the time. Because. You know. Not to like. Hey. Trying to be cloak and dagger type thing. But like. You got to just find something. That's not. Totally in the limelight sometimes. Well sometimes. And sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes you try not to. Blow out a unit. And so you kind of keep it quiet. And people think you're rude. By you know. You know. Quote. Lying to them or whatever. And then. People want to prove that you're lying. So they go tell everybody anyway. And they go there for two years in a row. And hate your guts. For trying to lead them on. To going to that unit. And you're like. I didn't tell you. I was here on a random chance.

I got a leftover tax. Don't. Don't read too much into where I'm standing right now. Some circumstances. Says I got a tag. Because I've clicked of a mouse. And I decided to come on. I clicked the mouse. Okay. I needed somewhere to go. Yeah. In fact. You know. Wyatt or Devin. Or somebody back in the office. Clicked the mouse for me. Help me. I was out today. Said hey. You guys got tags. I'm on my first board. I mean. I don't know. So. Yeah. I just. Anyway. I would add one too. Like. I don't know. My Arizona archery elk hunt. Yeah. I had. If I could explain to people. The amount of bad luck. Even though I had a blast. But I mean a second here. I'm just grateful. Somebody else has bad luck besides me. Oh. Unbelievable. But you know what. Like. Josh was there. My brothers were there. I hunt alone a lot. Because everyone I know is a hunter. Yeah. And. I had a freaking blast. When I drove home.

I was like. I feel better. I feel more fulfilled about this hunt. Than I do a lot. That I have something dead about. And that was a chance tag. Like you took a chance on. On a unit. It was fun. Yeah. And I mean. I've walked up on world class bulls. So. When it comes to elk. And I've been blessed that way. But. I'm not hunting world records. I'm not hunting 400s. But. Really big. Good quality bulls. And it's. It was just a blast. I think I went into it with the right mindset. And Josh. We had fun. I had fun. It was a lot of fun. Except when the fish and game came to check my license. And I turned around. And Josh was gone. You don't want him as a wingman. If. If law enforcement is around. Was he carrying your license? Why did he? No. The guy was talking to me. And I already talked to him on the phone. And I turned around. And poof. Josh was gone. It was fun. We had a blast. But.

That hunt sticks out in my mind. Josh is a gamey. He knew what he was doing. Yeah. I was totally on the up and up and everything. I don't know what he was afraid of. Josh knows. There was some nervousness. But not just because. You don't have the right to search my vehicle? Why are you in my tent? Get out of my tent. There's nothing involved in my tent.

No. And it's not just because it's relevant. Like that really was a fun. That was a blast. It was fun. It was fun just because it was kind of like. I want to say we didn't. Not we didn't know what we were doing. But every day something was different. Like there was things that came up that was different. No day was the same. And you didn't know what tomorrow was going to bring. So you just kept going. You could next day come up with some good. Genius invention. And it was kind of fun. Probably kind of fun to show. You know people that there was big bulls when they said there wasn't. You know what I mean? Yeah. People laughed at me. Yeah. A little bit. Here and there. Here and there. It was fun. It was. But there's a lot of hunts like that. Yeah. I like it. All right. Yeah. I don't really want to talk about Alaska. The band-aid's on and it's not coming off. I don't care.

It doesn't hurt me. It's duct tape. They ain't getting it off. I'll basically review it for everyone. What? It rained. It rained. It rained. It rained. It rained. It rained. That was. That was. I think they talked to my second time. There was a boat that wouldn't run. I think. That was. That was what they're referring to. That was about 2021. Well. It was that trip and the trip prior. Yeah. Yeah. Where you just. Yeah. Sometimes you just cut your losses. It's meant to happen. Yeah. It doesn't mean that much to you right now. I'm smarter now. I made choices. I'm living with them. All right. Here we go. Okay. I'm going to struggle with this question, but I'm going to get through it. Let's move along. Paul Bias says, good afternoon, gents. I had a question I wanted to pick your brains on. Good. I drew the one non-resident once in a lifetime mountain goat tag in the Utah LaSalle Mountain unit.

Did all the snow this year affect the mountain goat since it was so deep? He doesn't have a cool tag. Correct. And guessing they migrate down into the timber when the record breaking snowfall like this year. Yeah. I don't know how they survive, but when I go to Alaska and I see where they're living, goats and all sheep in August when it's the best they can live. Yes. And then you know how much, how they survive. I have no idea. And if they can survive that, the LaSalle Mountains is like. Well, and down there, if they needed to, they'd go to the sand. Yeah. But they're like in Alaska, they can't get away from it. They can't. But, but they also goats literally will eat pine and fur needles to survive. Yeah. They are. There's no issue. They're a garbage disposal. Just to, just to stay alive and they'll walk in a size of this room for a month. They'll live right here. Literally.

Like they do that. Those Dutton goats did that. You know, we had a lot of those collared them when we, when we transplanted those there. And it was pretty crazy. They'd push really, really low. I mean, right down to the pinyon juniper ridges, there's some rocky stuff right up, just barely out of town kind of thing, you know, and, and they would live on a single rock all winter. I saw one once. Nobody believed me. Right above Big Rock Candy Mountain up there. Oh yeah. Mountain goat. Yeah. Yeah. You know, they. Circle Volcanny had one a couple times. I don't think, I don't think you could kill them. I don't think nature could kill them. Yeah, it feels like that, but I know they do. They do winter kill. Not, nothing like sheep. Yeah. Sheep are much more, so goats, they can, they can survive. So I'm not going to tell you, don't worry, but I'm going to tell you, don't worry. Don't worry.

And have the hunt of a life. Yeah. Freaking awesome. How they can survive, I don't know. Take my hat off. Jeez, we're down to a couple laps. Should we push? Let's get this done. Push. Push hard. Hey there. Great podcast. This comes from Dan Ryan. Here are a few questions. 200 inch buck. Fun questions. Yeah. 200 inch buck. That means we don't have to give him a real answer. On general public land or a 240 buck on private land where the buck has never been hunted or doesn't have a fear of humans as public land bucks. Taking the 200 inch. I want both, but. I don't know. I'll take the 200 inch. You would? Yeah. No question. Yeah. For me. General season public land. I mean. We were talking a little bit about it the other day. I just think even on private land that they get hunted a little bit and you're on to them like you're. I'm not. Yeah. I'm not minimizing those. They get smarter so fast.

No. But I mean. If I have to choose. I guess. I don't know if that exists. I would feel. I would feel. But they're. Anyway. I would feel. Maybe it does. I've never seen a buck. Go kill. How would you feel. Right now. Here. This is why it's a fun question. Where can you kill a 240 right now in private? Yeah. That's not afraid. 240. No. Even just go kill one. Even. Even go kill one. Just go kill one. Where can you find one? Still tall. I can't even. I mean. Yeah. 240. We're not talking even out. 240. We're talking 240. I don't know. One time I went to Colorado to look at a rumor buck and I found him. And I could have killed him with a spear. And he was. He wasn't in a. What was he? He was. He was mid 250s probably. 240. 240. 250. Didn't do anything for you. And I. Nah. I mean it's an awesome buck. But literally. Carbondale. Was this Carbondale? Where was this? It was by Montrose. Yeah.

Just right in town. Yeah. I mean. No. It wasn't in town. But it was on private. I walked over to the fence. And like took some pictures and video. At 20 yards. And I walked away. Doesn't do anything for you. I would rather smash a 200. I agree. For. Compared to a buck like that. I agree. Yeah. I could have spared him. But. Putting your hands on a 240. He's a big deer though. I know. That's what I mean. I know. But I. But my point is. Is 240 buck is so far out of the realm of realistic. Yeah. Even on private anymore. With. At the state of Mulder today. 240. Go identify the one place you would go on. I can't even think of where one is right now. You know. I'm sure there is one. I don't know. Anyway. Fun question. Whatever. Yeah. 200. I mean. We have all the respect in the world for deer. Out on public land general. Good grief. You kill a 200 inch or you've done something.

You're a heck of a good guy. Good owner. Okay. The second question is. If there was a two year pause on elk and deer hunting in all western states. You're given one tag for each species for three years. When it opens back up. Which state and tag would you choose? On year three. After a two year closure.

Yeah. Says you're given one tag for each species. And we're going to assume it's a wet year. For three years. Huh? Four or three years.

One tag for each. For year three. Each species. For year three. Oh. Okay. No. Just one tag on year three. What are you picking? Elk or deer in what unit? That's what he's saying. I would say. And we're going to assume the moisture is great everywhere. Yeah. So I'm going to say, Jason. Arizona deer. Yeah. I mean. You can't. You can't argue it. Yeah. I want to do 12B Arizona deer. Yeah. 12B. Late. 12B late. Late. 13B with great dates. One of those. But like, there's a deer. There's 240 bucks. Yeah. And it's not on private. No. And it's probably not really stupid. No. It's going to be a hunt. It's going to mean. It's going to. You won the Super Bowl when that thing hits the ground. That's how you're going to feel. Similar is people almost expect it out there versus a 200 inch on general. So 200 inch on general might mean more to you. No. Well, I mean, this is all hypothetical. Yeah. So.

But elk, I mean, geez, you shut one of these Utah elk units down for two years, the third year. Some of these units already have seven to eight, nine year old bulls on them. Yeah. Be scary. I mean, you're going to kill a 400 inch bull or hunt multiple. But still, I'm going deer. I'm going deer as well, probably. Logan, we're like five to zero right now on deer and elk. But yeah. I mean, yeah. Arizona deer. Oh, don't. You said elk a minute ago. Well. That was totally, I swayed your opinion. I should have. If it was Utah. If it was Utah. That was one of those. I said it was five to zero. What's your vote? If I had to choose Utah, I would choose. One of those biased sample sizes. Arizona, I would choose deer. So, yeah. But if I had to choose only one. Arizona deer. I mean, after a two year shot. Come on. No cameras. No hunting. Yeah. You are literally walking among giants. I love learning.

I just, I don't know. This has nothing to do with nothing. I just think about the stuff that I like. And I like learning all these new units. I'm hunting new units this year. Me too. Oh, yeah. I love the learning and the challenge. And when you find one. Like, you know, we've got a buck or two found that are in places we've never hunted before. And you're like, it means a lot. It's so gratifying. Even just finding them. Not even killing them. I haven't even done it. I haven't even started. Yeah. It is. You know the theory and the gut feeling you had for a while? Yeah. You were right. Yeah. It's a good feeling. Yeah. It's a good feeling. It's like, I'm going to make good on something at some point. Dev and I had a good hunch like that a few years ago. Remember? Colorado? Colorado? Kind of back to back. Yes. Spashed a couple bucks on kind of a whim gut feeling. We were doing the same thing.

We didn't know it because we had never talked about it. We were learning the dynamics of all the migration and all the studies are published on it. A lot of migratory stuff published. That's right. And it was all coming together like we're hunting both sides. We're hunting deer. That was a short shelf life. That's my point. One-offs. One-offs.

One and done. Move on. All right. All right. Question reader.

This question pertains to general season deer time frame in October. After jumping a buck out of his bed or blowing him out from a missed shot, how long have you seen it take for a buck to return to the general area if at all during the hunting season? I have struggled to relocate them in the past when this has happened. Thanks. That's really hard. Have you missed rifle shot? Yeah. In October, late October, they're already kind of starting to flirt with maybe drifting. And then if there's a bunch of hunting pressure, that could be like, I'm out of here. They're sensitive. You're screwed. You're at a very fragile time right there. Which is when I want the long range rifle setup, turrets. Well, and what he's saying, don't feel bad because that's happened to probably every one of us. Yeah. Oh, dude. During that time frame. August or September? Two, three days. You got chances.

You got chances. You got chances. You're there, you know, sometimes the next day. But that's a tough one, Craig. Because, yeah, that's a very, very finicky time of year when a little bit of, just like we talked about earlier, feed that freezes, turns brown, they're looking for a reason to go, boom, guns are going off around them. Whatever. They're done. Don't mess it up. Just pray it's one of those bucks that likes to run circles, like you talked about. Fish hook. I've seen it happen. Oh, man. Yeah. Oh, yeah. They jump, take off, do a giant loop. They J-hook on every time. And they come right back to where you missed them or jumped them. If you would have stood there and had somebody else track them and you stand there, they'd run you. That actually happened to my dad. Yeah. I was standing there. I looked down, the thing's 50 yards from me. I'm like, dude. How long ago?

How long after you shot or bump it? Oh, he shot. He actually grazed him. Probably an hour, half hour, whatever. And he went down. I mean, this is like an hour. He crept all the way around, and he was standing right below me right when he shot. Yes. Did you kill him? No. Did he? No. Because he jumped him. You saw me, and then he knew it was for real, and he got shot probably a mile away. But he's watching. I assume. He's watching his back trail. He was. He's seeing your dad once in a while, and he's like, I'm going right back to my house. He did. He did a big circle. Yeah. That was October. I hate it when they watch the back trail. It happens every time. Yeah. All right. Okay. Okay. Can't beat him. All right. Last, SoCal Huntfish says, last try, I lost my first deer. I shot him in the shoulder. I lost him and relocated him twice and found him and got another arrow in him four hours later.

He took off, bedded 100 yards later. I bumped him, and he crashed 100 yards later, and head was in the dirt. Backed out for 30 minutes and went in, and he was gone. Two buddies helped me search and grid for seven hours. We lost blood after 500 yards. They glassed for birds the rest of the week. I went back the next week and grid seven miles. How often do you guys stay focused, or how do you guys stay focused when you can't find a deer or animal? What could you have, what could I have done different?

When he took off and bedded 100 yards later, I mean, leave him overnight. You know what I mean? You got a second arrow in him or whatever it is. I don't know all the details. Maybe they gave him a lot of time, but that's, once you got the second arrow in him, more time. Yeah. Because now it's like, let that work. But you may have left him. You may have left him. I mean, there's not a lot. This doesn't happen very often. No. He got two arrows in him. Yeah. Bumped him 100 yards later. His head was in the dirt. He backed out for 30 minutes. Could have made that an hour, hour and a half. Went back in, though he was gone. Who knows when he got up? Was it when he was coming back in on him? Did another person bump him? Who knows? You know what? Situations like that, I always say, time is your only friend. Yes. Basic friend. It's so hard sometimes. What did the second arrow look like? Shoot him.

Shot him in the shoulder. Was it a gut shot? Was it a gut shot? Or do you even know where you had him, you know, second shot? This is a tough. That's a hard one. It was a tough situation, really. This deer was, I mean, amped up, probably didn't have great shots, I guess. Yeah. On him. But they're tough animals. The end of that is how do you stay focused? I think it's just, it depends on, you know, what you find and how much blood there is. And, you know, there was that buck, Jason, that I was with you, that I hit. We thought he was down. And I looked for the next two days for him. But. Yeah, you hit him, you spined him. Yeah. I think it was between the spine and. In the void. Yeah. In the void. I don't know. Anyway, you slammed him. Yeah. And then we went over there. And there was just, there was just blood drag marks. Yeah. And he was gone. Yeah, that was kind of a bummer.

That was a 195, 200 incher. Yeah. You know. All right. Well, sounds good. Appreciate you, everybody. Hopefully. Appreciate all the stuff everybody sent. Yeah. A lot of good questions. A lot of good stuff. I mean, we do this once or twice a year. This hopefully gives you something during the hunts, which are going to be full bore over these last couple of weeks. You've been able to listen to some of these and maybe learn something. Maybe do something different. Maybe not. But maybe just be entertained. But who knows? When are we going to get back together next? It's going to get real here pretty quick. I don't know. I don't know. Some archery hunts coming up. They're just underway. Yep. Real shortly here. We're calling people in the field. Podcasting that way. Yeah. Who knows? Sitting on a cell phone ridge and just middle of the day burning an hour. We've done that before.

Let's do it again. Those are fun. All right, everybody. Have a good evening. We'd like to thank all of our sponsors here at Epic Outdoors. For top of the line hunting, clothing, and apparel in every environment, visit UnderArmor.com. We'd like to thank Under Armour for being our title sponsor and making this podcast happen. Visit our website, EpicOutdoors.com, for discount codes to Under Armour hunting apparel. Handcrafted, quality precision rifles from start to finish. Red Rock Precision is one of our sponsors, and many of our staff uses Red Rock rifles. Visit RedRockPrecision.com to find out more. If you're in the market for a hunting property, our sponsor at St. James Sporting Properties specialize in premier hunting properties throughout the West. Check out available hunting properties at StJamesSportingProperties.com. Good looking, comfortable camo describes Kuyu.

The new bush pants from Kuyu keep your legs comfortable while walking through the thorns and bristles. Visit Kuyu.com for sizing and prices. Kennetrek makes great boots for any situation. Most sheep hunters in the high, rocky altitudes use these boots to keep their ankles in check on the rough terrain. Visit Kennetrek.com to learn more. We at Epic Outdoors are a fierce firearms dealer and have many popular models in stock and ready to ship. Call us if you would like help deciding which options are right for you. Fierce Long Range Rifles are a great rifle, and many of our employees here use them. Visit FierceArms.com to learn more. Triple S Polaris specializes in custom setup hunting side-by-sides. They deliver right to your door nationwide. Visit SSSPolaris.com to learn more. For affordable, long-range rifles and shooting schools, visit ThompsonLongRange.com.

Thank you to Phonescope, the best camera optic adapter out there. Phonescope makes high-quality phone cases and optics adapters. Visit Phonescope.com to learn more. Stealth Cam has high-quality, durable trail cameras that we all love to use. Check them out at www.stealthcam.com or call us to order today. Here at Epic Optics, we are a verified dealer for Swarovski, Zeiss, Leica, Vortex, Stealth Cam, and more. Call us today to visit about the available optics we have and what would be right for you. Or visit epicoptics.com. For only $150 a year, you get nine issues of the Epic Outdoors magazine and unlimited access to our hunt consultants,

as well as access to our verified research website. To see all the other member benefits, visit epicoutdoors.com. If you hunt multiple states, our services are essential. The Epic Outdoors License Application Service is for you. If you ever miss deadlines or would like help developing your long, medium, and short-term license application goals, give us a call today at 435-263-0777 to learn more.