EP 119: The Evolution of Elk Hunting with the Epic Outdoors Crew

Gain points for everything that you think you might even have interest in because you're going to want them down the road. Those bulls drift off the top, get off into some of the canyons a little bit more later in the year. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, John Peterson, Chris Peterson as well. Chris, did your mic work today? Yeah, we got a new one today. As we get started, we want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring this podcast. Of course, we're going to have a few other advertisements on this podcast as well. Outdoor Edge, MOA Rifles, and Phone Scope, appreciate them as well. But anyway, Under Armour is a sponsor, title sponsor, I guess. We thought we'd talk about elk today. Of course, we get excited about deer and sheep, and of course, we get excited about elk too. We don't give them enough credit, we don't talk about them a ton, although we're always trying to figure out how to kill the next giant. The next podcast, if we're not careful, is going to be on antelope. Jason's kind of wound up this week about them.

Well, I did a little research in Idaho, and pretty soon it got me figuring out how to apply, buy super tags, everything else for antelope. And we got Wyoming antelope and deer coming out, so we got double dose of antelope stuff coming up here. A guy smoked an 82-inch ride out of Idaho, and we got a story in our mag, and I'm thinking, I can do that. Let's do that.

You might be flying solo next week on that podcast. No, you guys are coming. We're all doing that. We've all killed antelope. We like them. We enjoy them. We like killing them. But today we're talking about elk. We can't kill enough of them. Yeah. Anyway, so we're going to talk about elk. Where are we going to go with this? How are we going to go? I don't want to go state by state. I think it goes without saying we, well, I'll speak for me first. Okay, speak for yourself. But it's somewhat like the rest of us. I generally hunt elk when I get a good tag. I don't base my whole fall plans around one or two elk or three elk tags. Like I know some other people do that are more into elk than into deer. We in Utah, and it's probably born into us, bred into us whatever a little bit. We cut our teeth hunting deer. Elk were the novelty.

They were reintroduced throughout much of Utah throughout of our teenage years. That's right. We'll just call it that. And so we hunted general elk growing up. Jason and I both. Killed ragworn spikes. We hunted LaSalle mountains. Colorado. Yeah, Colorado jumping over there because, hey, that was, you couldn't hunt Utah elk, you know, if you wanted to hunt a big bull. You could hunt the generals, but, man, those were overrun with people. So we're just kind of a culture in Utah that we don't hunt big bulls every year, like a Montana, like a Wyoming resident and a Montana resident and, you know, even some of the Idaho. But we've used Idaho. We've used Colorado to supplement it. So in general, I use, I viewed my elk hunts as when I get a good tag, I put a bunch into it and I go hunt it hard. And then I'm somewhat fine if I don't get one.

And now that's starting to change and the older we get, we're talking about it every year. We got to, you know, that 400 or something that we just really want to say, all right, I got a bull of a lifetime. We haven't put as much time into it as maybe sheep or deer or other stuff. Well, and you can't do everything justice. You got to, you do kind of got to pick and choose a little bit. And elk tags, let's face it, people say a non-typical mule deer is the hardest one to put in the book. And while it may be statistics wise, numbers wise, based off of hundreds of thousands of hunters, there's a lot more deer hunters than elk hunters. Doesn't mean it's easier necessarily all those statistics would indicate otherwise. Go try to find a trophy, let's call them trophy elk tags. Go try to draw one. Go try to buy one. They're tough. They're tough to find. It's tough to find a quality bull tag.

But part of that, Adam, I wanted to talk about a little bit is remember back in the day when maybe our dads were hunting very aggressively, we're talking about Utah General, Colorado, a six point was a giant. Oh, I remember. You just kill a six point. I remember my dad, we were, my brother and I were kids, I don't know, eight to 10. And he killed this five by five, but it was a good five. It was not a first year five. It was a three or four year old bull. Yeah. But we thought it was a monster. And he, he mounted that on an antler plaque in our room. We, we just, we hung our hats. Yes. Arrows. I mean, it was just a part of our room. Gun room. And it's, if I had to go score it now, it's probably a two 50 bull. Yeah. But I mean, it was, yeah, it was just, it was like, wow. And I remember he went to Idaho and he killed one with his bow that was like a two 80 or 300. He's the talk of the town.

And it was a six by six. It was a giant. One a carol bow at the big bull contest. Seriously. Probably. Seriously. I don't know. But it was a big deal. Garth killed a six point out of Pagosa Springs there in Colorado. Same kind of thing. And we went over there. I smoked a muzzleloader bull right in the heart. I was so proud of myself. 125 yards there in Colorado. And, and you really think you're doing something with mule deer. There's always been giants. So we've been raised with giants. Always wanted to kill the giants. They were getting fewer and fewer in number and tougher to come by a giant mule deer. So there was more emphasis all the while we're watching bulls get better and better across the West. That's right. And so we, as we grew up, the bulls got bigger. Yeah. And then we learned how to score them.

But Garth kills that 400 inch or that Jen and I had pre scouted up there in Wyoming unit 61. That was like 1996. Mid 90s. Yeah. And dude, we were over there and we're like, well, you know, and we're trying to figure out, we thought we knew how to score. And he's like, I don't know. I think we measure the main beam. And then, and then do we measure the sixth? I'm like, no, that's a double measurement. That's got to be, that's the main beam. I mean, that's 425 if we do it that way. That's how far we've come as a hunting society. Yeah. Well, and as, as like I said, if we're, we're all from Utah. And so we, we, we evolved through, if it's a legal bull, kill it. And that's your elk hunting experience in Utah to, oh, we're going to start reintroducing elk San Juan. The first five tags I was there. My aunt drew one of the first year ever.

And she killed probably a 320 bull, but it was, it might as well have been 420. It was unbelievable. This is the, you didn't know anybody else. Early 90s, early 90s. And the first year San was open. San Juan was open. So, yes. And then to evolve to what Utah did evolve to. And then, you know, just, you know, we each had, Jason and I, we've each had an opportunity to hunt elk. John, you've hunted elk once in Utah. We've talked about it in other podcasts. We don't hunt elk, our big bulls in Utah very often unless you can, you know, buy a tag. Or usually, you know, that's the only other way. Landowner tag or draw tags just don't, they don't come around very often. They don't come around very often. Now, I remember John McClendon in the early 90s was guiding Agnew, early mid, let's say. And he was kind of, in my mind, it was the godfather of these giant bulls. A, he knew what they scored.

He just was, he started doing the videos. And so, we learn, you know, you learn a lot and you're kind of like, okay, that's kind of setting the seed for wanting to kill a big bull. But Arizona had them. We didn't have them. We didn't have them. At the time, no. Yeah. We didn't. We were just thinking about having them in Utah. So, that just kind of sets the stage for a little bit of background on us and the elk and whatever, our quest to kill giant bulls. Fast forward, early 2000s, you know, I was guiding a little bit. Adam, you were guiding a little bit on the LaSalle Mountains. CWMUs and whatever. Go put yourself through college. Utah elk were starting to get good, get worth chasing. And that was a way to hunt bulls just like you. It's why you started guiding some elk in Southwest Desert and Nevada as a means to hunt a big bull when you couldn't get attacked. Oh, it, yeah.

It was landscaping money. Yeah. Let's be honest. Diaper money. Oh. Diapers. Food. Okay. It was food. It basically, so guiding back in the, for me personally, just, for me personally and Adam, you probably are very similar. Where we were at in our stage of life, guiding doubled my yearly salary. And so, that was significant for Jana, which helped, again, and I've told this story before, but it helps when you have a separate checkbook for gas money that you say, Hey, I'm sorry, I've got to fill the truck up again, babe. You know what I mean? And so. At the time, you were making less than an administrative assistant. I mean, just. Right. Well. It was tight. You know, yeah. And I'd have to go. Well, it's early 90s, mid 90s. Yeah. You're talking. It was tight. Yes. Early 2000s. We're just out of college. Just like every kid in the world. No different than anybody else. Yep.

Trying to carve a way. Trying to figure it out. You're full of energy trying to figure it out. And so, anyway. And how else are you going to put your hands on big stuff when, A, you don't have any points? You can't afford the draw system. I mean, you're putting everything you can on credit card and justifying anything and everything. Selling a few sheds thinking you actually can make a living doing sheds. Anyway, I don't know. That kind of sets the stage. We got to put our hands on big stuff by guiding them. And then we learned a lot as we went forward. You know, you just learn a lot. You were talking about guiding. You put a few. I know you did. A few giant bulls on the ground. You know, I mean, the goofy days. These were. These were. I don't want to call them the first because I wasn't. You know, we didn't work together at the time. We didn't know each other. We weren't together.

But for all intents and purposes, the first giant bulls you touched were these clients. Well, yeah. So Russ Young calls me one day and he says, hey, I won the lottery. I didn't really know who he was. I won the lottery. I'm like, what do you mean? He goes, well, I was the number two guy in Quaker Oats and I was bought out by Pepsi. We were. And so all these years I had turned my bonus money into I had chance for cash or for stock. And I took the stock. So I got a load of stock. Pepsi buys me out. Stock goes to the roof. And I just won the lottery. I want to go some. I want to do some hunting. And I'm thinking, I want to take you. So at the time, you know, these bulls, we were kind of getting into these big bulls. Again, we're full of energy. And Utah was ripening. It was. Perfectly. And so was the neighboring units in Nevada because to a large extent, Utah fed some of

these 231 and some of these others on the border. We fed it. That's 100%. They come to and from and maybe summer in Nevada rut and Utah, vice versa. And there was burns, if you remember, all these burns creating ripe feed, which, again, for those listening, we've never known a burn that didn't produce something giant. So we love burns down here in the South. Fast forward. We hunt 2001. Kills a 360 bull. I find a 377 set of sheds. I'm like, while he shoots this bull, I glass up this shed. And it's thick. And I'm like, okay, Russ. If we move, I'm going to lose track of these sheds. It's thicker than freaking crap. I'm like, so what I want you to do is guide me to the sheds and I'm going to meet you at your bull.

I'm a kid. Those sheds mean as much to me as the bull does to him. Probably more. And so he's like, really? We're going to go to the sheds before the bull? And I'm like, yeah. I got to win something today, too. He guides me over. I snag this pair of sheds. I'm like, you're shiz on me. These are freaking awesome. And then we meet at his bull. Everything was awesome. He's a great client. And then the next year, he wants to do it again. 2002. Terrible drought year. Remember? I mean, brutal. It was one of the worst. I was a biologist at the time. I don't think there was a green blade of grass. So the Utah. The Mount Dutton burned. The whole unit burned starting in April. They started prescribed burns in April. Right now in April, I couldn't burn cheatgrass in Cedar City right now. You couldn't light a cigarette right now. You can't in Utah. But that year, they started in April.

And then it got in June. Just crushed. Remember? Burned. I totally remember. Half the unit. 2002. There was no snow. They started burning earlier. And anyway. And then it was a dust bowl. Hauling watered a deer all over the ponds. It was a terrible year. I don't know how Goofy did it. It was Goofy. I don't either. It was Goofy that year. Yeah. So Goofy. So he was in 2001. We had videoed him. And I told Russ. This is when he killed the 360 and the 377 sheds. Okay? I told him. I'm like, that is going to be a giant. We videoed him. It was like 330. Big freaking thirds doubled up. Remember how the fourth and the third was almost a shared base? Like just. I mean, very. Really unique. People. Boone and Crockett thought that too. Yeah. Later on. Anyway. So anyway. We passed him. And I said, Russ, that's going to be a freaking monster. And so comes 2002. He goes. That bull goes from 330 to 430.

One year. One year. I didn't realize it was that quick. I have video. Like I have video. The thirds are 27 when we kill him. They're 20. They look like they're 30. Unbelievable. Anyway. Straight up six. Okay? Straight up six. Remember, Adam set the stage. Utah's just getting ripe. We didn't have those bulls. Now we're looking at those kind of bulls. Would have been number one in the state. What is this? That's when it started really. That's right. Blew up. From there to 2008. Yeah. But it was a drought. In a desert unit. He lived on a green spot. Where did he summer? Nobody knows. Where are his sheds? Nobody knew. Nobody still knows. Whatever. And so we don't kill him. We freaking watch him in Nevada. I mean, you know, we got a Utah tag. And so he lives. Nobody kills him. Fast forward 2003. Good year. Weather wise. Everything's great.

I watch Goofy walk into Utah bugling by himself September 7th. The archery hunts on. I leave. I'm out of here. If anybody sees my truck, they'll know what I'm hunting. Da da da. Russ has got a landowner tag. He also has a Nevada governor's tag. We're killing Goofy no matter what. In the meantime, found Joshua Sheds, the Nevada bull. And they were 424 or whatever. Right? And in a unit that. You were looking for deer. Yeah, I was looking for deer. In a unit that didn't have elk. Got the unit to open. You know, went and visited with the Lincoln County cab. Like, you got elk here. You got elk. Wide draw boundary here. Lump it in with something neighboring, at least. You know, that was the premise. That's right. And so they did. So they lumped it in. If you go back to those regs, they lumped it in with 231. 231. Yeah. So we can see. Well, we don't know what's there.

Yeah, you don't know what's there. But throw it in with 231. Everybody will hunt 231. Got a few elk pioneering out there. But you'll kind of get a feel. And they knew. Yeah. They knew elk were pioneering there. And they're just like, yeah, lump the 240s in with 231. That's right. Boom. It's open. He has the governor tag. Worst case scenario. Backup plan. We'll hunt Joshua. If we kill Goofy on a landowner tag. He bid on the Utah governor tag. He didn't get it. I go back in. We GPSed where Goofy would be. He always works. It's kind of his route was. You know what I mean? And we went back, camped about two miles away. And we walked from camp three hours before daylight. Walked in. Because if you drive in, you push him to the trees. And he's gone. So we hike our guts out. Get in there. Daylight hits. Other hunters are coming up the road. They push Goofy. Just natural pressure.

They're just a natural, you know, hunters are there. And he's pushing his cows to the trees. And we smoke Goofy. He ends up being 434. As a five by on one side. A five by eight. So those giant fifths went down to nothing. But, I mean, identical. Identical bull. And then later that fall, we ended up smoking Joshua. Same year. So Russ won the Super Bowl. You know what I mean? We talk about winning the Super Bowl. I mean, while he did buy a governor's tag and had special season dates, it still just happened with a landowner tag. I end up. Yeah. In Utah. Two 420 plusers in the same year. Sets the stage for loving bulls. All of a sudden, we're elk hunters. Good grief. Bring up. Nothing. You can't do anything wrong. Let's do this thing. Yeah. And then, anyway. So then, Adam, I mean, let's jump on here. Did you and I draw the same year? When did you draw your Southwest Desert Archery? Oh.

Late 2000s sometime. I try to forget that experience. Okay. Never mind. Anyway, let's talk about your experience. Things were ripening. Things were ripening in Utah. I was being greedy. I was applying for the multi-season tag for years just because you're seeing all these bulls and you wanted to make sure one of them came off on your back, you know? Yes. But finally, about 2008, it was starting. We were all starting to see. The end was coming. Yeah. For the Giants. The tag increases were coming up on units gradually. We were used to basically when you drew a tag in Utah, you were all by yourself crushing 370 bulls and everybody was high-fiving. And we were heroes. For a lot of times. Couldn't do anything wrong. Utah was number one. Every state wanted to be like Utah. 2000. And really. Three to seven. That's how it was. Yes. Yes.

And so I ended up pulling out from that plan and just doing the early rifle hunt. And the year before, I'd seen a giant six point, which still probably would be the bull I would pick. You know, a 400-inch plus straight six is just, is what, you know, what I would pick over anything. And I could not turn this bull up this year. Whether he regressed, whether he moved, whether he was on another unit, you know, all these units. Now, don't just come to the same place every year. They're not like mule there. But yeah, Jason, you were there with me. You actually drew a desert sheep tag the same year. And by this time, we had met. In fact, you were working at the business, starting to consult. We're a couple years into that. We're leading the state as far as sheep transplant, sheep biologists, all of those kinds of things ended up moving into the private sector with us.

You end up with an elk tag. I end up with a sheep tag. I had a sheep tag in Oregon that year, too. I drew Oregon and Dutton and your Escalante. This is all within three weeks. We went from Beatty's Butte in Oregon, picked up a few trail cameras in Mariah, go to Utah, kill a bull. Yeah. Ended up finding this bull the week before the hunt. Several bull hunters were trying to kill him. He's very unique. He's got three eye guards on both sides. Gorgeous bull. And just an inline seven because of that. But he was in the general area that I was looking for that other bull from the previous year. I just couldn't turn him up. First day of the hunt, we had him dead to rights. And I just couldn't shoot him. He wasn't my, quote, dream bull. And I just, when you pull a trigger after, at the time, 15 points. How did it go down where you decided? I can't even remember. 15 points or so, roughly.

You know, so, you know, at the time, 15 points now is no man's land. 15 points then, you know, it was Mount Dutton. It was, you know, I couldn't draw San Juan. I had to draw what I wanted to draw, and that was it. And so Adam's getting ready to pass a 380 bull. I did. I did. I did. Remember? And that night, we're back, me and you and Aaron and my dad. And we're just talking, and the reality set in is this thing's 380 plus. What are you doing? And his triple high guard bull is unique. So we went back the next night and smoked him. I mean, remember that? That was awesome. We were on point. Aaron, are you on point? I think you videoed him one angle, and Aaron did it on another. And it was a crossfire, you know, from camera angles, crossfire. Oh, yeah. Smoked him on video, and it was a great night coming off the mountain. And that was, you know, upper 380s bull.

You know, he's hanging in my house today. Love it. But that's my one Utah big bull experience that I've had. Yes. Me personally. Yes. Guided clients on San Juan. Guided clients on Boulder. We'll be on Boulder again this year. It'll be fun. It should be a great year. But we just, we have to branch out, I guess, is what we're saying. And that's what we're teeing up maybe for, you know, maybe, you know, Jason, you've drawn some awesome tags. Well, you've drawn some tags in New Mexico that weren't always awesome. Yeah, they're awesome tags. You know, we've talked about New Mexico before, Adam, and there were so many opportunities in New Mexico and units. Bulls aren't named in New Mexico, and almost most of the units have a chance for a giant. Well, yeah. I love the low densities. I love the low densities. And they said their firearm hunts are out of the rut.

They're in October, and they're short five days. Yeah. They're almost like, we dare you to kill something big. And on day five, well, day four on the first one, right, Chris? Day four? And then the next one, day five. Yeah. Yep. You know, and both are over 380. And it gets stressful in those last couple days. But what was yours last year, Chris? Was it day four or five? How many days into your hunt? Day one. Day one. It seemed like you were there a long time because we kept seeing video of the bull, so I was losing track. I went three days early. I wanted to be able to find a bull and kill it early. That's what he did. It was one of those things. It was a drought year. And so pretty much it was if I find a good bull that's a really nice bull, I'm going to shoot it. I just really want to know about the rifle you shot.

Okay, it's my old lady's gun, and it was deadly accurate. We've had a whole podcast on Chris's gun issues. I love Chris's gun issues. I love it. However, this gun performed flawlessly, and you hadn't shot it one time prior to killing it. No, I shot it at a box. I'm sorry. I misstated. Yes. I target shot with it, but yeah, it was a 500-yard shot. Awesome. It worked out good. Well, and it was a giant, beautiful bull, just a stud. And that was a draw tag in kind of one of these lower-density units. You know, elk with low densities. Should we move to John's story? I just want to know, John, would you recommend CrossFit or jogging or anything? What do you think? Here's the question. Social media these days is full of... Where's Jeff when I need him? No, he wasn't on this hunt, and I wasn't either, but I've heard the story. But I want to hear it again.

I was, and there was supposed coughing of blood. So, on internet, today there's a lot of people that work out on social media, we'll just leave it at that, that try to tie that in to how that makes them awesome hunters. And I'm not trying to belittle being in shape and how that can transition to being a good hunter. However, do you feel physical fitness... How much of a part did physical fitness play? Does physical... Can and does physical fitness ever be important on a hunt, John? Take the mic.

There I was. All right. For those of you who don't know. After a perfect lung shock. So, go ahead. We're teeing this up for you, John. Go ahead. So, we had a brutal year, and I was in the office just nonstop, sleeping in the office, trying to get magazines done all the time. And just, I didn't get out of the office. So, I was totally out of shape. I mean, it was bad. Like, a gym selfie, I hadn't seen a gym for a year. Yeah. You know, a couple years in a row that Chris and I would work out every day and all that. Well, you guys just looked bad. That year, I did not get out of it. You didn't have hardly any time to go to Taco Bell and get one of those combo meals. I mean, it was... No combo meals. That's an inside joke. It's really quite funny, but maybe another podcast. Go ahead, John. Anyway. So, yeah. When I got there, I was just out of shape like crazy.

I did have time to go out scouting, but it was like... But it's the rut, right? Two weeks before, you know. Don't scout the rut unless you're in the rut. So, and I'd run some trail cameras and stuff, but man, exercise-wise, it was in horrible shape. It was a good experience. Yeah. So, there we were. There we were. Almost as bad as your Escalante hunt. John had a picture of his family in one hand and a goo in the other. How many goos did you crush to get out of there? And A, you didn't think you were going to make it. No, I had like four or five. Goos? It was, yeah. Heavy caffeine. We teased John at times if goo... We bought him a goo flask. We did. We did. You could squeeze goos into a flask to make it bigger than just the little individual surf. And it was made for goo. It was. It was a flash. It was. I don't know why we found it because I don't think Amazon was available back then.

It was funny stuff. Anyway. Yeah, that one was bad too. That one was a 10-day and I packed horribly, ended up having a 77-pound pack going in. Mine was 94. It was brutal. It was brutal. Go ahead, Chris. Well, for anybody that doesn't know, goo is an energy. The energy, the little energy gels. It's kind of out of... We needed to... Thanks for that clarification. We're going to have Instagram memes and everything popping up about the goo flask. I haven't seen them for a long time. Are they still around? They're not as popular. It doesn't feel like, you know... They were a shot of energy with a lot like a monster. I think monster replaced those goos. They were a gel version of a monster. They were. Yeah. And about one ounce or... Yeah. And a little light. Lots of ingredients and vitamins you can't get other places. I'm telling you, they were great. It did. Hey, it saved you.

Oh, it saved me, man. Your family. They got to see you again. Absolutely. It was a wonderful experience meeting back up with them. A bonding experience. So anyway... Anyway, so back on the elk hunt. Yeah. I mean, it was a fun hunt. Get on this bull. Yeah. We were seeing bulls. We were hearing bulls. And we were just waiting for the right one. And then, you know, we found it. And I shot it. We videoed it. We videoed it. Man, I thought it was dead. I saw it fall. Could probably even find it on YouTube. Boom. Yeah, I think it is on YouTube. But I saw it fall. Hit the ground. I thought, it's done. And then... So we were hugging, high-fiving. I mean, it was just the greatest ever. And then... And all those were acubons, too. Then it was... Oh, shoot. He's up. He's up. And then it was running. We all had the deer in the headlight look like... Yeah. Yeah.

I'm thinking, don't be shooting a cow or another bull on the run. Like, it gets helder-skeller. We've all been in those positions. And then it was just dead run. And we ran. And ran. And ran. And then we decided, okay, let's... Let him sleep. He's bleeding. He's bleeding. So let's let him sleep and came back the next day. And then he still wasn't dead. Well, we tracked him. And it was hard tracking in the rocks and the blood. And we track and track. And there's elk tracks everywhere because they're rutting. And there's cows and bulls and everything mixing and matching. And we end up walking up on him. Yeah. And he jumps up and takes off. Jumps up. And we're like, you're crap at me. And it wasn't a horrible shot. It was in the shoulder. I mean, good shot. Just by chance. Deflected off a rib or something weird. It was just weird. And then it was like a marathon. Run. It was a marathon. Run.

Run. He had the adrenaline of something's trying to kill me. Yeah. And we went a couple miles. And it was all I could do to keep up. It was. Was there any truth to the rumor of blood in? Oh, it went vomit.

John. I heard that purported. I was not on this hunt. No, I was coughing by the end. And I could taste blood. He had a cough. Yeah, he had a coughing attack. Yeah. And I was like, I don't know who's going to die first, this bull or John. It was like John quartered out the gutless method. Wouldn't be fine. It's just like. Anyway. So this bull turns around and barks at us. Barks with foam coming out of his mouth. It was a bummer. You know. It wasn't great. Then John smokes him. And everything was great. But you don't like it to happen that way. He didn't deserve that. A, we didn't deserve that either. It was for making a perfect shot, dead rest, great bullet. But we're not talking a. Long range. No. I'm talking a little plastic tip bullet that blows apart. 200 yards maybe? We're talking it was bonded. It wasn't far. Yeah. It was good. Anyway. But sometimes it does that.

Sometimes things like that happen and made the best of it. Anyway, stud bull, John. Yeah. I was so happy with that bull. When we got that bull. It was awesome. You got him in your office. Yeah. It was a good memory too, you know. Yeah. Making memories. Yep. Well, anyway. So. Yeah. So. Now we've all killed some bulls. And it's time to. How. What are we going to do? You got to do it in other states. You know, unfortunately, Jason, you've probably done best. I mean, actually, you've. Mexico. I love Mexico. You've drawn. Well, they're in a non-point state. But you've also, through points, had a couple Arizona tags. Yeah. Forced the draw like we talked about. I had mine a couple years ago down there in 27. Yeah, you did. You've been to unit one a couple of times. Yeah. I drew an early rifle down there in an archery. Killed on both tags. Yeah. Yeah. Bulls over 350.

I mean, you know, that's another story. Chris, were you on that one? Mm-hmm. Did you film that with me? Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. I'll let you tee it up. That archery elk that I hit in the butt. Go ahead. That was. It was a fun hunt. It was one of those hunts that, like, the bulls were just going crazy. And we got in there one morning, and we could tell these bulls were coming together to fight, and they were just bugling all over. And we were planning on sneaking in there before they got together and started clashing. And so we just were listening to bugles and chasing bugles. And we got in there really tight with them. But the problem was we were crawling under this brush to get to it. And we're sitting there under this. Super thick. Super thick stuff. But there's a window we can see out of it. And we just see this big bull come up through the opening, and we can see another bull.

Shagging him. Yeah. Both these bulls are just coming through. And they came through just in the right area where we had a window. And Jason shot through that window. Like 40 yards. And? And I hit him in the butt. And I was like, you're shizzing me. Yeah. I mean, this is on film. And I'm just beside myself. I'm beside myself. I'm disgusted. And he runs. He comes over, runs about 70 yards, lays down, and dies in 45 seconds. You're kidding. The fastest archery kill I have ever seen in my life. I'm like, I look at Chris, and I'm like, did he just die? He just died. I can't believe he just died. He's dead. He's dead. You know, the whole time I'm thinking I'm going to go over there and smell guts. You know, and I'm just like, anyway, he bled out. Blood everywhere. And I'm like, wow. So Chris, that night, he's going through the footage, and he's like, watch this in slow-mo.

And so the arrow comes out, and there was one branch in the opening. That we couldn't see. And it was, it just perfectly deflected that arrow into the. And you see it going for his lungs. Deflex. Hits him and hits him. Yeah, we're close enough. And it was a close enough shot that it didn't, you know, it still hit the bull. Yeah. And luckily it hit him in like the, right into the femoral artery. That's awesome. And that's bow hunting, though. Wow. And I think. Again, stuff happens. That probably tees it up. You know, I know you are a lot the same way. I prefer, we prefer that. If you can hunt them in September. You know, we got spoiled in Utah. I had a rifle hunt here. John had a rifle hunt in Utah. And those are spoiled. Though you really can't plan on hunting rifle rut hunts in September. You just don't plan it. Very few states even give that opportunity.

So, for me, if I had a choice, it's a bow in your hands, in the rut, however. And that has changed, though, back in the day when, I don't know, I don't want to say bows sucked, but it didn't feel like you had a real valid weapon in your hands, okay? Finger tabs. Think about it. Yeah, you and I. You and I would, I mean, and then we've wrapped our heads around, we've grown as hunters, we've wrapped our heads around season dates mean everything, the weapon's secondary. Yeah. Because we can use them all. And you go and have what kind of an archery hunt in Arizona? Yeah. I mean, how long did it last? A 15-minuter. I mean, oh, and there was another one like that in Montana. Remember that 10 years ago? We're up there. This is more of an opportunity hunt. We're up there in 700 in the Missouri Breaks, and we're in the side. I'll just cut it. This is not a remote backcountry hunt.

This is out of the side-by-side. No, there's a little cabin. A bull, a bull trots out there and stands, and I get out there. I was in good enough shape on that hunt. I, I, I, we're, this is an opportunity hunt, and I get out, and this bull's just staring at us like 55 yards. Remember, you're, I step out, walk out there, we watch him die. That was just like yours. I quartered him perfect, and he rolls over there and dies within 50 yards. And then we look at each other, and we're like, okay, we're done. I'm done. Jason, you're done. I don't know what's so hard about all this. Let's go back to hunting deer. There leads to challenge. To your point, the archery evolution has been awesome. It was late 90s. I, you know, back in the time, shooting compounds, releases were just kind of coming on. I didn't use one. I shot tabs. I shot finger tabs.

And sometimes I tried to build up the calluses on bare fingers because you might lose your tab. Yes, that's right. All those things. Dad's over there. You need to use bare fingers, son. Remember the gold pins, the gold sight pins? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And you'd have to paint them white. Paint them with fingernail polish. Paint them with white. Yeah. So they would stand out in that last 10 minutes, not even after shooting. We're like, sun goes down, and you can't even hunt in the legal 30 minutes after that because you can't see your pins. My favorite part about those pins were they weren't in a straight line. No. And I'm thinking, how? I had ones in and out, in and out, and then once in a while you'd be lucky and they'd get in a straight line, but they were on an angle. Well, what does that mean? That means when you sighted your bow in at your house, the wind was blowing, and you

sighted in wrong. Consistently for the last three months. You sighted in wrong. But it was right for the wind that night. It's right. It's right. That's right. I know, A, the tuning methods were left a lot to be desired. Or your release, you were- Now there's no level. Yeah, there's no bubbles, levels, and all that. Back then. So back to this story, I call a bull in, into my freaking lap, and it's not after hours. It isn't. But I can't see my pins. And he's close, 20, 25 yards, and I'm a full draw, and I'm like, I got this. And he runs away, and I can see it hit him high shoulder, and I'm just disgusted. Where's this at now? This is New Mexico. Oh, okay. The Pecos Wilderness. I'm in the Pecos. Okay, okay. I'm packed in with my dad and the Pecos. This is a recurve, right? Or the first compound? No. We're getting to that story. Okay, okay, okay. This is my carrel. It's a compound.

It's sights. I couldn't see him. Okay, okay. But it was the last time I was ever going to hunt with a bull that I depended on sights. Because I tracked that bull till dark all the next day, and was disgusted. Never found it. High shoulder, we all know what an elk can do to absorb an arrow in the high shoulder. 55 pounds, big old freaking aluminum arrows. Yeah, whatever. That had been bent when you were practicing or whatever. Yeah, they were fairly straight.

Just is what it is. You know, you're a poor college kid. Oh, you're broken. I think I was just, no, I think that was a year that Becky and I were getting married. That was, that was. It was 96. It was a year we were getting married. Game getter 227s. No, XX75s, man. Yes. XX75s. I couldn't afford the 78s, but I had the 75. But I literally, I told my dad, because he's shot instinctive his whole life. Traditional longbow, and I'm like, that's it. I'm never going to depend on a peep sight and a pin the rest of my life. I don't need wheels, bells, and whistles. Yep. For the next four years, I never killed anything with the bulls. Because I bought a recurve. He knew everybody, made me a recurve, had a custom recurve, and I could shoot the heck out of it, 10, 20, 30 yards. But I didn't kill Jack. I didn't kill Jack. I finally killed about a 150 buck east of Monticello, Utah. With the recurve.

With the recurve. I was proud. But, all right, it wasn't getting the job done. So, I think Aaron has that at some point now, and I've moved, I've caught up with the times again. This is years ago. It's been 10, 12 years ago. Fast forward to your hunt in 27. That was 15 minutes. Yeah. Went down there, had a bull picked out, I thought, that I was going to hunt. I get out the wind. With the new compound. Oh, yeah. But the new compound was, what was that? That Montana hunt? Yeah. That we talked about? We had amazing bulls. I borrowed a bull. I borrowed a bull. Oh, you did? Remember? Who did you borrow from? From a buddy. I remember that now. I'm like, all right, we're going to go do this. I'm going to get back. I'm going to jump back into this, you know, compound game. Boy, these are nice. Remember, I was smoking. Oh, you were.

I was like those, the Native Americans riding their pony, pulling stuff over, shooting buffalo on the run. I was just crushing it. I was ready. I let stuff go left and right. Killed Charlie. Remember that. Never got invited back to that place. But, anyway. The buck, the big, heavy, giant, three by three. I can't remember. Anyway, keep going. That was early, I don't know, mid-2000s, whenever that was. But, yeah. Bow hunting's come a long way. So, anyway. Fast forward just two years ago. I drew a 27 tag. I knew I was going to get the tag simply because of the points I had. And, yeah. Went down there. Learned enough around the unit. Went down there. Some of the guys were going to come down the next day. But that night I get out, howling, howling wind. I hear, I thought I busted a bull. Thought I busted him. I'm like, crap. But, turns out the bull was raking. And I'm like, holy crap.

So, I knock up and I just start, you know, you're going to crush the guy because they're consumed when they get in that mode sometimes. Well, it stops. So, I paused. And after a minute or two, it was silent. So, I let out a half-hearted bugle. Boom. He hits me. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. The wind's wrong. You know, where he's going. So, as I'm looping to get the wind, I can see his legs up ahead 80 yards coming my way. And so, I get up there and I'm like, the best he's going to do is he's going to flank me right here. He's going to win me at some point. But I let, and he stopped. And so, I let a half-hearted bugle. Boom. He hits me and here he comes. So, I'm freaking get back there. And he steps out. Full draw. 23, 24 yards. Smoking. And he takes off running right towards my truck. You're like, please. Oh, yeah. Dies 100 yards from my truck. And I'm all by myself. And I, it's over.

Boys, 15 minutes old. 15 minutes old. I got this. I did. I called Jeff first, I think. I called my wife. Yeah, we were on our way. And I called Jeff. I said, hey, you guys don't come. What do you mean? I'm done. You know, here's a nice bull. Like an 8x7. Low, mid 350s. Short thirds, but an awesome bull. I just couldn't turn him down. And it was, you know, you always wonder, should I hunt there longer? Blah, blah, blah. But, hey, 350s bull with the bull in your lap. It was pretty fun. It was just two years ago. It was awesome. So, what I want to kind of jump into just a little bit here is, you know, a lot of people talk about calling. There was a big calling fanatical era, let's say, where calls, everybody was making a diaphragm. Garth Carter, my dad. Calls mom. Garth Carter calls incorporated. And we, you know, he had rattling antlers. We had buck grunt calls that were electronic.

He had electronic trapping lures, diaphragms, cow calls, all of these things. And so, back in the day, remember, back in the day when six points were rare, you called them. And it was fun. It's like calling in turkeys. I mean, it's just a blast. And so, anyway, but when we started trophy hunting, you know, it reminds me of this elk hunt. I had this muzzleloader hunt here in the Southwest Desert not too long ago, 2015 or so. I mean, I had that bull on trail camera. He came in on the 23rd to 24th. And then from there, it was super thick. No, no, September. Oh. He came in to rut. No, the bull I killed with the muzzle. The muzzleloader. Oh, I thought you were talking about that. Muzzleloader bull, that 385 bull at the big whale tails. He came in to rut. And I'd never known about the bull before, but he came in on trail camera.

So, we've evolved a little bit, I guess, is kind of where I'm going with it. We can call. And my dad always taught me, it doesn't matter what you sound like. Have you heard them? They're not perfect. Okay. Elk are all different, and they're not perfect. They might be, you know, have a mouthful of water trying to be going, you know what I mean? And so, anyway, to get on him, it was super thick. We were glassing, and it took us a few days to find him. Like, we could get him on camera, but he was rutting at night because it's so hot out there. And then, but once we got on him, we saw him, we heard his bugle. I could hear what he was sounding like. I did bugle a little bit just to get him going. Once we had him going in the thick trees, you know, we could follow him, like, by sound, by his voice. Went out on the edge of a rock, and he comes out, and I smoke him about four shots.

You know, muzzleloaders are, and it was open sights here in Utah. We could use a scope, a one power back then, and it was just an open sight, Thompson Center with power belts, you know, and that was less than perfect. I mean, I don't know. They act like, you know, a rock bounced off his side. You know what I mean? And so, anyway, ended up killing him, but a lot of that wasn't from calling, and Adam, same thing with you, and when Chris and we were in Arizona, same thing on our archery hunt, same thing on the archery hunt in New Mexico where we killed the .367. We used a little bit of calling to get him going, but you're not calling him in. No. Yeah, even my bull. You have to call in. If you're going to trophy hunt, how many bulls do you have to call in, Adam, to your .380s Dutton bull? No. We're glassy. Yeah, if you're just chasing bugles, you're going to waste a lot of days, unless you're

hunting, you know, one specific sounding bull or something like that. Yeah, usually just slip in the mix of them. Stealth mode has been proven for me the best. You know, whether you're bow hunting or whether you're hunting with a rifle and pinyon juniper or thrick trees on one of these mountainous units, just get in there and don't announce your advance. That's probably the best way to put it. Don't announce that. If you're in a real low elk density area, maybe you're hunting in some of the back country of Idaho or something like that, maybe it's different because you've got to find a bull. It's nice to get them going. Get them going. Sometimes you get them worked up. And we'll have calls for that to get them going, but it's not like we're sitting there going to call a bull in. We call a lot of bulls in just because, but it's not the main tactic.

And you do that and you call in the little bulls and they're in your way and then they're busting and all that. So if you can just, we call it tap dance in, you know, see what you're after, back out if it's not what you're after. That's the way to do it. You've got to cover the numbers. So when they're going, you know, it takes how long to call one in or you can, when they're bugling hard, like we've had some of these hunts in New Mexico, you're going bull to bull to bull to bull. And it's a numbers game. You've got two hours until they shoot. Much like deer on the winter range. And you've got a numbers game. And you've got a couple hours in the morning before they shut up a lot of times. So see as many as you can and run and gun, so to speak. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And do that for as many days as you can.

And eventually you're going to find the bull that you want to kill. But as far as the interaction with the bull, we've always taken more of a passive approach where you're there and you use the call if you have to. But it's more, you know, passive. But back when elk were new or novel in Utah, I mean, we grew up on the sand. We'd go up there and just love to get in the middle and call, all right, I mean, you know what I mean? And it was fun and new and neat. And in low-pressure elk hunting situations, that still exists to some extent. But if you're out in public land units, even in Arizona, archery or something like that, elk just don't tolerate super aggressive run-in and do that. But I mean, they learn big older bulls. I'm not talking elk. I guess I should say the older best bulls. That's usually not how it's going to happen. They don't need to. They don't need to.

Maybe earlier in the season before they've got their, you know, harem tied up and everything. Then, you know, they're a little more vulnerable to being called in and things like that. But I remember as a kid, you know, and I can't remember, like, you know, exactly how old I was, but I know my voice hadn't changed because I was calling in bulls with my voice. And I mean, that was awesome. Garth was like, that's beautiful, you know. Keep going, son. He's like, you know, I've got about another year of this and that. And pretty soon he's going to be a growler. At least I hope he's a growler. He's never been prouder, right? So anyway, I remember. And he would leave me, you know, I was this human trail camera. Oh, you got to tell that story. You got to. The human trail camera? Yeah. We've wanted to tell that one forever. Go ahead. Tee it up. That's funny.

No, I don't know the details, but it was before we had trail cameras, really. Well. So, yeah. He'd love to put tree stands in quake and aspen. Well, what do they do? Every aspen you know falls down. You know what I mean? Yeah. In a pretty short order. So you're up there swinging in this quake and aspen. Of course, I'm probably 100 pounds soaking wet. I don't know, probably 140. How old were you? Oh, dude, I don't know. I started doing that. 10? 9, 10. 9 or 10? Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I, I mean, people might call it child abuse if you didn't. I mean, but I was assigned to sit in the tree. Oh, I sat in a lot of tree stands growing up because it's what my dad did too and never had a rope, never had a harness. Yeah, we didn't have that. Well, you have this little, you have that. Remember the cinch that was, if you fell, it cinches tighter. Cut your air off. Yeah. Cut you off.

Just killed you quick. And you're up there and you're like, well, I'm fine. I got this strap that's about three inches thick and it's better than last year's strap. If you had one. I mean, I remember dozing off a couple times and you have that awakening. Kind of like now when you're, if you're driving late at night and you have a quick doze off moment, you freak out and you wake right up. I had a few of those in tree stands, like, like I just about died right there. Between lead paint and tree stands, how are we even alive? I mean, we ate lead paint, dude. We put, we put lead pellets in our mouth and went out and hunted all day long. So you're nine years old. Your dad drops you off. I'm nine years old. He drops me off and he says, Hey, I'll come back and get you at noon. You have a sandwich for a half hour and you get back in the tree stand until dark.

And it happened day after day after day. And you know, that was part of it. So he was, he was a game warden, you know, we always did. Ride along, so to speak. You wanted to know what was coming into this water hole or salt or whatever. He loves salt licks. An elk loves salt. So you weren't actually hunting. You were just. Oh. Jason couldn't hunt for five years. I tell you, it was the human trail camera. It was 16 years old. Then it moved to 14 years old. And we were at that age. Yes. And this wasn't for me. This is a literal human trail camera. That's the literally. Literally. Literally. And I didn't have no pistols. He didn't really like pistols. He was with law enforcement, but he didn't like them. And I understand why. So I'm up there by myself. And I had a lion. I mean, I had. Bears. Bears. Bears. Lions. And you know, he's, you know.

Anyway, I look at my kids nowadays and I think, you know, most, most kids are scared of the dark. So you're in the hills. Bears. Lions could eat me. All these kinds of things. I've heard every story on Instagram where one lion stalked one person. Once. In the last five years. And that story has been regurgitated and reiterated and every kid knows the story. So they're scared of the dark, you know. And so back then I'm thinking, I'm sure a lion could eat me. I know he could. And he's over there at 100 yards switching his tail. And I got to climb out of this thing at some point. A, we don't have cell phones. B, we don't have radios back then. We don't have nothing. It's me and him. That's right. It's me and him. And I got to get to the road. My dad's going to be an hour late after dark because he's going to go till the very last minute and then take his time coming around to get me.

That's right. And I'm going to sit there with a lion that sat under my tree for the last four hours. And a little cheap flashlight that he got out of a cereal box. Oh, bro. Come on. But the batteries are dead. Radio back batteries and freezing my guts out up there in a freaking quaking aspen swaying four feet side to side. That's right. On the cheapest Cabela's tree stand to sell. That's right. With a little strap around my waist. That's right. I mean, how are we alive? I don't know. And so anyway, I remember a specific story. I was in there calling elk with my voice and it gets dark on me and I got bulls all around me. Hey, I think I'm going to get gored. But it was kind of fun. It was one of those times when I was just like, man, I wonder if I kill a turkey. Yeah. You're a man. Can I kill a turkey by grabbing his head and wringing his neck?

Because my dad taught me when you shoot a turkey, you run up and wring it. Okay. And it's flopping spurs everywhere. This freaking gross head. Blood. And I snap his neck, you know, and I'm thinking, I wonder if I could snap his neck. I want, that was kind of my goal. Kill a turkey without a weapon. Comes in, snap his neck and he's done, you know? And so he's just, he's raising me right. If I, I guess I just want to say he taught me patience, perseverance. I mean, some amazing, do we sit tree stands now? No. That, and now if it was archery elk, Adam, you're running trail cameras on Boulder. You have a specific giant bull coming in. Thick bull on a spring or something like that. You're going to see a blinder tree stand. That's right. But, but what it did teach is I can sit for, in one place for a long time. Yeah. You could have been a whitetail hunter. Oh, yeah. That's what it taught you.

Could, could have been. You could have been. You're not. Could have been. Could have been. That's right. Could have been. All right. Well, a lot of evolution, a lot of change. So what you said, it reminds me of. No, it's not related. So that's for another podcast. Say it. Well. It's too late. How we're alive. Okay. When we were growing up. You mean lap belts for seat belts? Back in the 1972 Chevy? I didn't even have those. We had a 76 Blazer, Chevy Blazer. And we pulled, you know, the trailers back then, they were just a, they were a bed that you found at a boneyard of a truck, right? And that's what we made all your wood-getting trailers. I used to call it Honda virus or whatever, Ronda, Honda, whatever the bad virus is from mine. But you know, you got these old pickup beds and if the axle was still good, cut it all

off and make your tongue and make it pull, wood-getting trailer out of those, right? Yeah. My dad had one of those. Stepside. Okay. Stepside bed, homemade cattle rack stuff so you can get more wood because- You're on top of it. We, my brother and I would ride off the mountain, off the San Juan, on the stepside of the trailer, just holding onto the rack the whole way into town. And how my mom or dad would let us do that, I would never, I mean- They would be in jail for many years. Like we would ride, when I'm not talking just a couple miles, you're talking 10, 15 miles off the mountain, holding on the back of a stepside trailer on the outside, just holding onto the rack with a full thing of wood just to hear, just to have the wind blow through your air. Yes. That's all. Yes. And were there safety chains? Probably not. It was probably just slapped to a two-inch ball. Good grief. I mean-

It was probably a two-inch hitch on a one and seven-eighths ball. Who knows? Anyway, just flashed through my head at the time you said how we lived, I don't know. But those are, I did that over and over growing up. As, nothing unique, we all did things like that as kids. But anyway, moving along, the evolution of elk hunting, it got us to a lot of different places to where we are now. And I guess one of the things, we hunt, and it started off the podcast, we hunt deer maybe as many times as we can a year, three to four, but we can't all hunt them. You can't all hunt elk in September. You have to be able to, some states like New Mexico, hunt them in October. What about Colorado? Or Colorado. Yeah. You killed a great bull in Colorado late. If you're going to hunt elk multiple states a year, or try to, or apply for them in multiple

states, you rarely can just put them, all of them, September 15th to 30th, the bull. That's what I want. You got to be a little more adaptive of, you may not get tags. And so, yeah, that was an example. That was a couple of years ago, 2016. You know, the unit I could draw, heavy private land, dominant. Up high. Yeah. Jason, you've been there too. Up high. Summering elk are on private. Very unique. On a big plateau. I ate another tag there. But anyway, keep going. There was a tag. And I just thought, you know, those bulls drift off the top, get off into some of the canyons a little bit more later in the year. And it actually fit my schedule better that year. If I can hunt in November, I'll have a better chance to do it myself on public land. And that's what I did. So I adapted. Even though I'd rather hunt elk in Colorado with a bow, I had like 12 points at the time,

which is no man's land in Colorado. So I drew a third season tag. Ended up killing, yeah. Stud. Last day of the hunt. 360 plus bull. Two studs standing there. Yeah. I had to pick one of them. Yeah. About two 350s. And that's interesting too, is the tactics change. Again, we love, the season dates are everything. Whether it's elk deer, antelope, season dates are everything. And you're not, they're not bugling when you're hunting them there. You're waiting actually for some snow to move them off the private. Yes. And get them onto the winter range a little bit more. Yeah. And you get snow, it's amazing. And there's examples like that in other states as well. Some of the Wyoming hunts like that, you don't get a hunt. I mean, there's a lot of October 1st rival hunts in Wyoming, but there's a lot more October through November hunts that can be awesome.

Well, remember, and it brings them out of Yellowstone. It brings them out of some of that crazy wilderness country. Remember, they had that early storm, 2017. Oh. Wyoming was off the hunt. Three feet of snow were in the high country. Outfitters were calling their clients, come early, come early. You know what I mean? And it was. It was disgusting. Yeah. But that changes, you know, versus an archery hunt. Now, we do have some of these late archery hunts in Arizona, and we laughed. I mean, when they started that late archery, we were like, really? Man, wow. You guys are really trying to grab some money and generate revenue off tag sales. They're actually pretty good. We've learned how to hunt them. Yeah. It's actually a spot and stock hunt before the early rifle. You get first crack at them before. If you've been able to, the bulls are off by themselves, living in a canyon, feeding them

bedding them. That's all they're doing that time of year. Yeah. And it's like you're hunting a mule deer. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. They get up. They feed. They're done rutting. So, you know, it's after that early rifle. But they're done rutting. They feed, bed, feed, bed, feed, bed. That's all they're doing. They're tired. They're worn out. Yeah. And so, if you have a buddy who can walk you in on something, you're going to, you might, you have a chance. Anyway, I'm just saying, my health changes, how things have changed and how we've changed as hunters. And we've learned when you pick up sheds, that's where the bull winters. If there's a late season, he might be close to the winter range. And so, shed hunting's becoming a tactic to scout. Yeah. To actually know, not just know that there's a live bull, but where that live bull is. Yeah. And I'm going to draw a tag on that season.

Look at some of the biggest bulls killed in Utah this last year. They were killed on the late hunt because people found sheds of the bulls specifically the years before. And people had had them in a different unit on trail camera in the summer. Yeah. Different unit. It's pretty interesting. And we're getting better. Again, information age, our technology. We've got a book on migration routes and the color studies and whatnot and the migration patterns for deer. And it's pretty awesome. Yeah. So, 30 days in September are awesome. However. Hunt elk if you can. If you can't, we'll kill a big mule deer. That's a great time to hunt a big mule deer. It is. They're so patternable and usually muzzle or Nevada. It's made for it. But, yeah. Let's go back to elk. Outside of that, you've got to adapt. You've got to think outside the box. You've got to do some of these things that are different.

And right now, I mean, I dare say everybody here in the room, we've got some archery hunts in the draws right now. We've got rifle muzzleloader hunts in the draws that we're waiting on right now. Now, just because of that simple premise, there's only so many days in September. You can't jam it all full and you want to try to adapt. You use the states to your advantage when they're in your advantage and then try to pull something. Don't be afraid to fail. Well, swing, go. That's right. The failing, we've failed a lot. And sometimes we talk about it. Sometimes we don't. But there are over-the-counter tags. We did a lot of research on Idaho this past week. So fun, right? Get excited about stuff. Maybe sometimes we shouldn't be excited about because it's barely an opportunity. However, they do have over-the-counter tags.

And non-residents are on a first-come, first-served type basis with caps, so to speak. It's not truly over-the-counter, although it is. But you need to be Johnny on the spot. And Diamond Creek sells out the first day and within hours. But having said that, you can hunt 300 to 340, 350 even bulls in some of these places in Idaho. And that's a phenomenal backup plan. I mean, keep in mind, Adam, you and I were yakking the other morning. And sometimes we get to yakking. But there are times where we're like, how many points would we give up in another state to hunt that caliber of bull that we can get on an over-the-counter tag? Yeah. Well, let's just take Colorado, for instance. Okay. Okay. Okay. Where are you going to go hunt archery 330, 340 bulls in Colorado? I don't know. How many points do you think that's going to take? Yeah. Let's look at 61. Let's look at unit 61.

I don't have it off the top of my head here. 20 plus. Okay. And same thing with 76. Yeah. Or same thing with whatever. Or you're trying to hunt in and around private on 40 or something. Yeah, you're double digits there now. Or you can go get something over. There's just a few of these opportunities. And one thing we put in the magazine a few times, nothing stays the same. Yeah. Everything changes. That's right. This will change too. It will. We're watching some of these caps show up. 73 Unlimited now has 240 deer for non-residents capped. That's right. And so things are changing. That's right. Take advantage of some of them while they're there before, you know, the draw hits everywhere. You don't grab their archery on the strip. Do we need to say more? Disgusted we didn't abuse that. It was over the counter. That's right. And now it's taken dang near max to get a 13-day archery. Yeah.

That's right. One or two hundred. And what are we doing for the caibab? We're talking six points for non-residents. Something that was over the counter with not that long ago. Everybody had the bow in their hands, right? That's right. Full draw. It just was. And so. I think it's a good place to plug what we do. So if you're. Plug away. If you're wanting to get into elk hunting, want to get into mule deer hunting or whatever, maybe you're from the east and you haven't done it, that's the time to join our service. You can call us on the phone and specifically for your experience and maybe you've got some points somewhere. We can help you decide where to draw your tags, where to put in for. And we're a hundred bucks a year. And, you know, you can call us and get that personal attention. We were talking about a hundred bucks. I mean, okay. Okay.

That's less than a non-resident hunting license, not tech, hunting license for just gaining points in one state like Nevada or like Arizona. Yeah. The one, one sheep, moose or goat point in Colorado. One of them. One of those. And so. Not all three. I mean, come on. It's, it's nothing. Nowadays, you know, times have changed and we should actually catch up with times and increase the fees a little bit. But hey, we're not going to. Don't start any rumors out there. But I guess the point of this is gain points everywhere. It's something, you know, we weren't necessarily elk hunters, but we've been dang glad back in the day, you know, of course we love mule deer and we love elk too, but now we're really wanting to put our hands on giant stuff and you wish you had more points everywhere. Gain points for everything that you think you might even have interest in because you're

going to want them down the road. Well, and be willing to make something out of seemingly nothing. If you take deer and elk both the last, let's say three or four years, some of the biggest bulls and bucks that we can think of in Idaho, Utah, some of these units are not off the best units. They're general season deer or they're elk off of generals or average units in Idaho or in some cases Utah. Yeah. And Idaho's a lot like New Mexico. New Mexico. They don't have named animals. We name our animals here. Okay. We name them. Charlie. Charlie going down. By the way, his cameras, his pictures, he's getting, he's taking selfies in multiple units depending on what time of year it is. You know what I'm saying? On cameras he doesn't even know about. So, but we don't have that in a lot of these states like New Mexico, Idaho, some of these states. So we love them and whatnot.

Of course, Colton had six points in Wyoming, gained him points. I'm so glad I did. Went up there, smoked a great six point bull for him. Great family experience with me, him and Sean, my boys. And so, anyway, that's about it. Chris, John, you got anything? Save us here. It's hot in this room. Huh? No, I think we got a couple shout outs to a few sponsors of ours. Shout out, John. Yeah, we got Phone Scope. If you, I mean, a lot of what we do is we video when we're scouting and video and show each other the video footage and say, hey, what do you think? And so, anyway, the Phone Scope has kind of revolutionized. Instead of we were holding up our cameras before and this is just clear as day. So go to phonescope.com. That's P-H-O-N-E-S-K-O-P-E dot com. Very easy to choose your products that you need. You just put in your scope and then your phone and it tells you what to order.

You know, back before Phone Scope, I mean, we would hold our, like you said, we'd hold that video camera up next to the scope and it was so shaky, about made a smoker out of many of us. You know what I mean? So this is actually healthier for you. Well, and the biggest deer that I ever, you know, tried to film, they were all blurry. Where was this? You know, before. Oh, I got a couple there. Oh, come on. I thought we was tight. Yeah. Well, they're too blurry to even see. My ex-brother-in-law's coming out with dropping bombs on. There was one up on Panguitch Lake that had, you know, double cheaters off both sides. Come on. Bull. Big. No, I'm serious. If you didn't video it, it didn't happen. I got it. It's just blurry. I saw the pictures and I'm like, I can't tell what that is. It's a deer. It's a deer. That's your own brother throwing you in the bus. I was crapping, too.

It was a big, some big right there. I promise. You know what? Here's the video. Anyway, he was big. So if I had a Phone Scope at the time. John, those are tree branches.

I also want to give a shout out to Outdoor Edge. They partnered with us. We actually have our own Razor Light series in the Epic Outdoors model. Great knives. It's replaceable blade knives with a top support backing, if we'll just call it. I don't know what the technical term is for that, but it stops the breaking of blades. The blades are stiffer to begin with, but that top backing stops the breaking of blades. We love our Outdoor Edge knives. OutdoorEdge.com. Don't leave anywhere without them. Also, we appreciate MOA rifles. They're a newer advertiser for us. We're going to have a little bit of an article from them in an upcoming magazine. Yeah, June issue. We're going to have kind of an intro on them, give you a little more info. We're also going to have a party out there. We're going to have a little party. We're going to go out and shoot with them. We're going to show them what's up.

I know they haven't seen hunters, the likes of us. So anyway, we're going to go and see what their guns are made of. Of course, we know they're good. We actually have really good friends. A good friend of mine, old Reed Miller, smoked a buck with me that went 215 inches. And that was with an MOA rifle. And they are a work of art. So anyway, we're going to go out there June 6th and 7th. We're going to have the Epic crew, at least a few of us that can make it. And we've got six spots. That's right. We've got six spots. First come, first serve. You can go out there and shoot with us. Of course, we're going to work you over and find all your hunting secrets. And you can work us over as well. We'll help you visit about hunting and whatnot, get plans for guys. And then shoot guns, have a good time for a day and a half, two days. That's actually about the 6th and 7th. Yeah, 6th and 7th of June.

And the course, from what I've heard, is unbelievable. You've got different hunting situations. You've got angles. You've got all different kinds of real hunting situations that the range is on. And so not only are you going to learn about how to shoot better, but you're also going to learn about situational shots. Because we're Instagram junkies and we can't get us off social media just like a teenager because we're afraid a big animal might go away and we won't be able to see it. I did see that they did the first course like yesterday or whatever. They're right in the middle of a course right now, first time. And so anyway, you can kind of check them out on Instagram, MOA underscore rifles and whatnot. They've got courses starting from now forever. I think the only course that has openings is ours. Yeah, all of them are booked except for ours. And so we've got our spots open.

Anyway, give them a holler, 541-526-1820, MOARifles.com. So anyway, we appreciate them. And yeah, see you there. Everybody, we just, Adam and I, Chris, John, Jeff, all hands on deck, been crushing these next two magazines, the May and June issues. Man, they're heading to the printer. Sure. So anyway, super excited. A lot of good information in there. Well, the June will come out a week and a half, two weeks after that. Covering California and Arizona. And they're having their commission meeting this weekend. So we're super excited. We've been doing a lot of research. We're teed up for a lot of draw results to start. New Mexico, that's probably the next one we're all eagerly waiting on. And then when May gets here, it's like nonstop. It's Christmas every day in May. Yeah, May. It's May Day. May, May, May, May. Give me a tag. Who knows? Give me a tag. Maybe we draw an elk tag or two.

Hey, and how about this? How about we're going to have another world-class lineup of hunts that people can apply for? Stay tuned. Yes, we are. Stay tuned. Give us another week or something like that. We'll unveil that. We're going to have the final touches on it. But I've got to tell you, we've got deer hunts worth over $20,000. So anyway, just a little something for you to look forward to. We're going to cover that in May and June issue. Of course, we'll podcast about it. How about we give them half a slam of sheep away too? How about that? How about that? I can't wait. So anyway, we're excited. Chris, are we going to give anything away or we're going to be stingy today? We did just give away a membership yesterday. Did we? Uh-huh. Where'd we do that? On the last podcast? For a podcast giveaway. A guy from Vegas won it. Oh, really? Well, let's do another one.

What has Jeff got in there on the racks? Or what do we got? Let's give him epic swag or I don't know. Something fun. Let me open the window here. Jeff, you all right if we give away something? Let's do a Gore-Tex Pro. Gore-Tex Pro. Okay, we've got a Gore-Tex Pro jacket. That's a good item. Those are actually, that's their Wazoo Rain series. Those are like $500. $500, yeah. $499, I think. Yeah. What's the keyword? How do they apply, apply, apply, Chris? Let's do... Apply, apply, apply. Let's do one apply. Okay. Just apply? Apply. A-P-P-L-Y, where do they go into that? All right, so to enter for that Pro shell from Under Armour, you're going to go to our website, epicoutdoors.com, and there's a tab at the top that's podcasts. And in that podcast tab, you'll have a place where you can put in the code apply. And we'll give that away one week from the release date of this podcast. Okay.

Awesome. Love it. Wow. Holy crap. We're giving away things. It's like crazy around here. It's Christmas in April, and man. All right. And if you do want to get on board with us, John gave a plug for us a little bit earlier. Our phone number here at Epic Outdoors, 435-263-0777. We're here not 24-7, but we're here... Feels like it. Yeah. Some weeks it does, but let's just put business hours Monday to Friday. Just call in. We might answer. Yeah. And go to epicoutdoors.com. If you want to join online, join on. We got the hunt planner on there. We got drawing on. A lot of tools on there. So try us out, and thanks for listening. So try to do that.