EP 14: Inside Epic Outdoors, Jason Carter and Adam Bronson with RnA Outdoors

We do want to be the best at what we do, and that's Western Big Game. Went to school, become a wildlife biologist, received a bachelor's and a master's degree here in Utah. Everybody's measure of success is different. Anything to do with Western Big Game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter here with the Epic Outdoors Podcast. Got a little something different today. We've got an interview that Lucas of RNA Outdoors Podcast did with us, and we decided to repurpose it on Epic Outdoors Podcast as well. So anyway, I appreciate Lucas cornering Adam and I there at the Hunt Expo, and we sat down and just visited about quite a bit, a little bit about everything in regards to Western Big Game hunting. So anyway, before we get started, I do want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring these Epic Outdoors Podcasts. Super fun company to be a partner with, and we've got a lot of neat things coming out with them, and the Epic partnership here in the future. So with that, we'll get started. All right, so we're sitting here on day two at the Western Hunting Expo at the Epic Outdoors booth.

Very fortunate to sit down with two guys that you would argue are probably some of the most renowned DIY public land type hunters in the industry. But more than that, I think what's important is, is, you know, we're here to share and send a common message, and that's really, it's around conservation, it's around sending our message that what we do is positive, right? Public lands are, you know, on the ballot right now. There's a lot of things happening, and I think the biggest thing we can do is share with hunters, non-hunters, anti-hunters, that what we do is positive. It's a good thing, right? So more than anything, we're going to have a good conversation today. Sitting down here, I've got my co-host with me, Jason Quick from the NRA, who has co-hosted many podcasts with me, he's been on many podcasts, we've been on a lot of adventures together. So, Jason, thanks for being here with us.

Oh, man, glad to be here, especially with these guys. These are going to be some fun times here. Yeah, so to kind of tee up our introduction, so, you know, when you hear the name Jason Carter, for me, you know, I think of a guy who's a very established and incredible mule deer hunter. I've been a member of some of the application services for going on 12 to 15 years. I've seen a lot of pictures of Jason. And I've actually emailed him in the past and never got an opportunity to meet him. So, for me, this is a big opportunity. Secondly, Adam Bronson is a wildlife biologist, has an extended background in being a professional hunting consultant and also a big-game outfitter. You know, year after year, these guys not only harvest but help people find huge, big-game Western animals and really what this Conservation Expo is about.

So, with that, I want to welcome both Adam and Jason Carter, partners of Epic Outdoors, to our podcast. Thanks for being here, guys. Thanks for having us. You bet, Lucas. Thank you. Absolutely. So, the first thing I want to do is what we call the rapid-fire Q&A. So, what that is is I'm going to go through a series of questions. Okay? I'll give you guys a little bit of time to kind of go through them as I explain it. So, what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask you a series of questions and give me an answer. Okay? And a lot of this is prefaced on, you know, it's application season right now. That's part of what you guys do at Epic. And I think it's important that if someone's got max points in Arizona and, hey, man, I'm looking at a Unit 9 tag, I'm looking at a Unit 10 tag, I'm looking at a 23 tag. In your professional opinion, what do you think is the best unit in those states?

So, we'll go through some of those questions. It'll kind of help break the ice. And then from there, we'll get into the discussion. So, the first question I have, you guys are both natives of Utah? Yep. So, being natives of Utah, a guy has max points in deer. Okay? Are you going to put him in for the Poncegont tag or are you going to put him in for the Henry Mountains tag? We're laughing at Henry's for sure. Yeah. He'll be on the Henry's. 17 points. Muzzleloader tag. Looking into my future. All right. You've got some extensive background in the Henry's, I know, Adam. So, we may be able to talk about that later. In Arizona, I know, Jason, you've drawn a strip tag. But if you could have the option at a 13A or a 13B tag, in your professional opinion. There's no question you're going to be on 13B. Okay. 13A has had some big deer in the past and it's got phenomenal genetics.

But just, you know, right now in this era, this little window of time, 13B is no question better. Okay. So, in Arizona for elk, unit 9 or 23. What do you guys think? Just like Jason said regarding Arizona deer, right now, no question, 23 North would be better there. 9 has a big following and rightfully so. But 23 North is cranking right now. 9 is a little flatter than it historically has been. And there's 23 North and South has less hunters and you just got big bulls. Yeah. There's conversation that 9, it's good. Don't get me wrong. But it's not as good as it was 15 years ago. But is anything as good as it was 15 years ago? I think 23, you might argue, is better than 15 years ago. Maybe it's the only unit down there you'd say that. And the rest are slightly, slightly. Slightly down. We're seeing a few uptrends, you know, in unit 10 with tag cuts the last couple years.

But overall, you know, I would just say, yeah, back to 23 and being really good right now. You know, every year there's going to be big bulls and we've got a lot of weather down there. Absolutely. But, yeah. So, elk in Utah, would you apply in the beaver unit or the San Juans? I mean, we're going to look at the odds. No, we're going to look at the odds and, of course, you know, factor all that in. But the biggest bulls are on beaver right now. Yeah. I'm from Monticello, born and raised on the San Juan. So, that would probably bias me to just hunt that unit. But all that aside, beaver probably has half the tags or 40% of the tags. And I would take a beaver tag. Less competition, more opportunities. And maybe a better chance to kill a 390-plus bull. 370-plus bulls, it doesn't matter. Go to either one. You're going to kill one. Probably more of them on San Juan.

But for a really ultra-giant bull, low-pressure beaver. With the burn in there and everything, it's just excellent right now. Pressure. So, sheep guy here. And I know, Jason, you've sought some sheep in your day. So, in Montana, would you take the 680 tag or the 482 brakes tag? I would either. But I would say from talking to the people we have to this point, and we'll get in more depth than that in a future issue. But I think right now, I'm hearing more of the guides and people up there in the normal hunt for 482 right now. That's recently changed. The last two, three years is all. That's a lot of, you know, things change. Yeah. And they'll change in a year or two. Yeah. Two years ago, we could be telling you the opposite. We're talking about right now. We would have told you the opposite. We would have told you 680. We're talking for this year. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

So, yeah, the most popular is 680, and everybody knows that. But there's big rounds in both. I'd take either one. Absolutely. Anybody that could get a tag there is going to be smiling from ear to ear. But for a one or two, a very specific top-end monster. 195, 200. Yeah. That's what we're talking about. We're not talking about 180, 190 rounds. Go to either one for those. Yeah. That'd be fun. And I know residents in Montana, because I was born and raised in Montana, people that have been playing for 30-plus years, residents for that tag, and they've never drawn it. I mean, it's, you know, not only being a non-resident now, but being a resident, not having the ability to draw that tag, it's amazing. Max point holder. Waiting. Waiting. Probably before. Hopefully before I get too much more gray hair. So, Colorado, for elk, a unit 61 or a 201 tag?

Oh, we'd be in 201. Yeah. No question. No question. 20-some points. You have the points to get it. Yeah. I mean, you could choose. It's just 201. Elk in New Mexico, 16D or 16A? I mean, you'd be in 16D, although 16A has big, big bulls, too. And people that go there love it, and we hear back from everybody, but. Those are close, yeah. Yeah. But a little bit lower tag numbers in D, so it maybe gets the edge kind of like maybe a beaver did on a sandaline comparison. Less pressure. Sure. Yeah, but it is a smaller unit, too, so it, I don't know. There's bulls that die. You want me to get a quarter out and we'll flip? It's almost a flip. There's bulls that die of bull age in both of them. Sure. A lot of rugged, nasty country in both, so. Okay. If you're in Alaska hunting doll sheep, would you pick the Chugash, the Brooks Range, or the Tok? I would have a Chugash.

I just found out my draw results, so I'm a little bit bummed I did not draw my Chugash tag, but I would pick a tag there. I think you get a better chance to kill a giant, you know, a 170 plus ram there. Tok rams are beautiful, long and pretty, nothing wrong with them, but for most people, if you've killed one already, you're going for the very best. The next size. And maybe a Chugash. Heavy. That's where it got them. Bases, bigger bases. Yep. Okay. If you guys had to pick elk or deer, this is probably a stupid question for one. What would you choose? Oh, I mean. Deer, no question. Deer. Although I'm looking for a 400 straight six someday. It's on the bucket list. Oh, yeah. We killed some good bulls, both of us have, and of course some good deer too, but we do love deer. Deer is your passion. Deer is a passion. Yeah, deer is a passion. How about sheep or mountain goat?

Is there one that gets you going more than the other? Oh, yeah. No question. No question. We both killed goats, but we would shoot 10 or 20 sheep in our life. Oh, yeah. And we may not shoot another goat. I mean. Everybody needs a goat. We all need lots of sheep. Yeah, absolutely. The problem is, so many sheep tags, and a whole lot of people applied for them, right? Yeah, a bunch of money. That's right. So if you could choose either a hard horned buck or a velvet buck, what would it be? I'm a hard horned guy. Pretty velvet is good, but, man, I like hard horned bucks. And I hunt them in the velvet, and I love velvet, a pretty velvet. There's nothing like a pretty velvet buck, but I love a hard horned deer, too. I like to see the bloodlines. I like to see all the little tiny detail on a buck. And, you know, as long as they're not broke off or something crazy, I just love a put-together,

hard horned, heavy, detailed buck. That's what I like. Yeah. So on that same lines, do you like the typical frame, you know, deep forks, chocolate-type bucks, or do you like the trashy, non-typical type bucks? I want a non-typical, but with a big frame to go with it. Trashy bucks with bad frames, I don't like those myself. I like a big frame, either clean or a big frame with some trash. Yeah, and, I mean, you shoot them all when they're big. That's right. Whatever they got on them is a bonus. If they're big, they're big. That's a plus, right? But, you know, if we had to choose and we really were, you know, had the opportunity to have them side by side or something, then obviously, you know, I want a big frame with some trash. But, you know, those big typicals are hard to find. When people talk about big typicals being, you know, easier than a non-typical, I don't know.

It's hard to book a net book typical. It really is. And they're beautiful. That's a hard one. You get a 35-inch straight-up four with heavy and big eye guards, that's a beautiful deer. Yeah. And, you know, I need one like that. Look, he just took a big saw. You guys are pressured. Getting me worked up, man. Yeah, getting a little. Had to hunt. Thinking about that $5 tag that he threw money at just a minute ago, you know? Yeah, that's right. In terms of optics, are you guys, Swarovski guys, Zeiss or Laika? Swarovski. Swarovski. Swarovski all the way. Yeah, I mean, we'll use some Zeiss. I've got Zeiss and Laika too. But, you know, Swarovski's pretty dang good. Yeah, it's hard to beat. Good glass. In terms of what you'd have in your hand, would you prefer archery equipment, a muzzle loader, or a rifle? If you had to pick one.

This is hard because we honestly every year hunt with every weapon. So I couldn't pick. It's how we can get a tag for the unit we want with whatever weapon. So we're going, a lot of times Adam and I are picking out specific animals. And so whatever, like, you know, if you found him in the rut, you know, and he was rutting, you're going to need a later tag. You're probably going to have a rifle in your hands and you're going to go for that season. But if we pre-scout in the summer and we got a 220-inch deer in the summer or something, we're not waiting for a rifle to kill him. Because he's probably not going to be there, so we'll hunt him with a bow. It's nice to kill him. You know, with a bow, you usually hunt him. Yeah. And sometimes you kill him. Yeah. And sometimes you don't. But we both like muzzleloader and rifle as well as archery, and we do all of them every year generally.

So anyway, not too much preference there. The gratification of shooting one with a bow is amazing. And I think Adam would agree with that. When you get a big deer or a big elk on the ground and you did it with a bow, like, it's awesome because you usually had a real, you know, connection with that animal, right? Yeah, you do. And you're close. You're close to him. A couple times usually before it finally comes together. Like, you've stared him in the eye freezing at 50 yards, you know, and had him snort and blow out. It usually doesn't kill him the first day you try. Yeah. You knock one down at 400 or 500. I mean, you're amped up, but it's just not the same as having him at 40 or 30 or 20, you know. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And then the last question. I know you're pretty modest guys, but, I mean, what is the best deer you've shot now? And I'm not talking trophy class.

I'm not talking the largest in inches, but there's probably one that, okay, it's not the biggest buck, but it has my heart. It's the one that, I mean, this was the best buck I ever took, even though it didn't score the best. Is there one out there that you guys think of? Well, maybe it did score the best. Maybe. Yeah. You know, there's a couple that stand out to me. One was when Adam was with me. I drew my Arizona tag. I drew it on 12B, and we went out there and just grunted it out. And it's one of those times where, you know, we felt like we kind of had the governor's tag. It was that we're out in the middle of nowhere hunting sand hills, and it was one of those places. Didn't have a ton of tags, but even the people that drew weren't there. They weren't hunting there. They were hunting a little bit easier country and where there was more deer, and we were hunting low densities.

And so Adam and I and another friend of ours just grunted it out, and we ended up being successful and killed him. And we sat around a campfire right there at the kill site, and we probably sat there for, I don't know, hours, recounting the experience, loving it, living it over and over again, and just really taking in the moment. And so to me, you know, that's one. And then, you know, I've had other deer that I've hunted for a couple of years, and you finally put your hands on them, and there's something to be said for that, too. Sure. But I really enjoyed that experience and being able to experience that together. It's about who you're hunting with, too, at times. It's not just about the animal, although we love the animal, and that's why we're there, too. Bonding relationship, too. That's right. Yeah. That was one of those nights that I remember we even said it.

We're like, will this ever happen again? Yeah. And that's why we're like, before we even started carving the deer up and taking care of them, we just soaked it in for three or four hours. It was like minus five or ten degrees and cold. And we were one of those. It was out in the desert in Thanksgiving time, and literally we started fire and just chilled out, and it was so awesome. Yeah. I haven't had an experience like that since. Wow. That's incredible, guys. Really, that's that moment. To put a number to it, he's talking about his 272-inch deer. So it was one of those. Sure. It was that kind of deer with that kind of experience by yourself, not competing against the general public, although they could have been out there, and then just us. Yeah. It was just us. 20 miles from the nearest main road. And that's what makes it cool. I mean, everybody's measure of success is different, right?

And I think not only being successful on the hunt, but sharing it with really your best friends, the people that are in the gutters with you when you're feeling down, and the guys that are there when you're happy, I think that's what makes the experience what it is. Absolutely. Yep. Okay. So I do want to talk a little bit about just a grassroots discussion. I mean, you guys don't get to this point by just being average hunters or being average, you know, outdoors people. So maybe for both of you, just give the listeners a little bit of a background, how you got to where you are now, if there's a simple way to do that. Okay. Well, you know, all growing up, my dad worked for the Game and Fish. He worked for them for 20 years and retired from them. But all along those ways, he'd throw me in the truck, and I got to go experience some crazy stuff,

like we were talking about over on the San Juans. He was in charge of the LaSalle Mountains, the Book Cliffs, the Dolores Triangle, and we lived in Moab, Utah. And I have fond memories of just being thrown in the truck doing aerial counts, sheep captures. They put me in the helicopter once, which that will never happen this day and age. Sure. And just cool stuff. So I was immersed in it. I was just immersed in Game and Fish stuff and hunting. And he constantly researched other places and other states because a lot of the, during the hunting season, he had to be in Utah working. And so how are you going to hunt when you're working during the season? And so we had to go hunt other places and odd things. And we would spike hunt in Colorado, and we would go hunt in New Mexico, and we turkey hunted in five states and lived in a, you know, pop-up camper.

I mean, you know, and he just ingrained that love into our family. It was part of our family. It was who we were. And as time grew on, you know, I wanted to put my hands on some of those critters, and I'm newlywed and graduated from college and needed to, how are you going to do that? How are you going to do that, making $20,000 a year, which is what I was making, $24,000. And, you know, newlywed, well, you're going to start guiding, you know. And I'm not a good guide. I don't got the good personality, have a great camp, good food. I'm not that guy. But I want to put my hands on big stuff, and I can help you find some big stuff. And so that's what I did, and that helped me provide some checkbook that paid for the gas money for my own hunts. Sure. And it taught me a lot, too, because there's a lot of pressure from taking clients. And I'm 20 years old, 21, 22.

And really trying to make a name for myself, trying to learn how to hunt, to kill big stuff, and to be responsible for that, and then put my hands on these animals. Yet I know nothing. I mean, I've grown up in it, but a lot of that is just being out in the hills, and there's no substitute for time in the hills to teach you these things. And so anyway, we did that, and then just kind of, you know, that's a little bit of my, like, childhood. Yeah. And then that never quit. We just kept on going through. Ended up being able to, you know, got married. My wife let me take all the vacation time, comp time, time before work, after work. Sick leave. Without her, literally, I would not be where I'm at or have harvested the animals. And she took part in our successes. And she's manning the booth right now while we're doing this. And doing a great job at it and 100% supportive in my lifestyle.

And so I got to go out and take what should have been family time and did me time, you know, hunting deer and elk. And there's a, you know, a price to pay for all the success that we have in life, no matter what you do. And I just, anyway, we just kept doing it. She took part in it, and then we brought our kids into it, and there we are. There we are. And Adam, I know, has a similar story. Yeah, very similar to Jason. It was my dad. I have a younger brother. He's about three years younger than me. And so, you know, growing up, you know, he just drug us wherever with him. And there was, I remember a lot of times, I remember back now of some of those trips where he took us. And I can't believe he took us where we went at that age. Without cell phones. Or whatever. And I can't believe we did it because it was a lot.

It crushes me now to go back to some of those areas, you know, and spend the night and hike into. And I'm thinking, wow, that was pretty good. But I think we realized early in life that you go to places where not many other people do, and you usually experience a little bit different type of experience, whether you're scouting, hunting, fishing, whatever. But he was very good at that. I grew up in southern Utah as well. On the San Juan, I remember seeing the first elk there and watching the first elk get released onto the San Juan. And always had an affinity for deer and sheep. Southern Utah is red rock country. It's very unique to southern Utah and a couple other places in Arizona. But Dad would haul us down there in the wintertime hunting coyotes and looking at desert bighorn sheep. And I'm sure that's the only, it has to be the only way that I started to have an affinity for sheep.

I would always remember on the deer hunt, you know, you're always too young to go with Dad until you get to a certain age. But he'd bring some big mule deer home back in the, you know, early 80s and 90s, you know, the heydays of Utah. And wanting that. And over time, that just became part of what we do. We missed school to hunt. That was about the only thing we missed school to do was hunt. Exactly. And over time, I decided that, you know, I wanted somewhat of a type of a career to do that. So I went to school, become a wildlife biologist, received a bachelor's and a master's degree here in Utah in wildlife management. And went to the work, did my master's project on desert bighorn sheep in southern Utah. And just was very fortunate in timing of when people retired, I got hired right out of college as a wildlife biologist.

Was over Mount Dutton, Panguitch Lake, Poncegont, Kapirowitz, Escalante, parts of the Boulder. I mean, arguably one of the top two districts in Utah. The other one being in San Juan County, in my opinion, would be probably the best, too. Had a great five years working for the Utah DWR. Until an opportunity, kind of out of nowhere, came to, you know, jump on board with Jason. And I guess go back to the private world and use some of that. And all through those years, like Jason said, you go into college and you're robbing Peter to pay Paul to try to apply for some state. Don't want to go back to those days. How can you apply for, you know, Colorado sheep or Wyoming sheep? Taking 0% credit cards. And now I'm so thankful because you've got 15 to 20 points in a lot of these states. And you're to a point that we literally can't apply for everything that we want every year.

We have to pick and choose because we could draw two of the same thing. And so all through those years, it was great. Went to work for Jason in 2006. So for about the last 10 years, been back in the private world. And when I did that, I'd always taken a few hunters in college, worked for some different outfitters. But it was that time I thought, all right, why do I want to hunt? I want to hunt sheep. I'm only going to get a few times in my life myself to do it. The next best thing is to go with somebody that's got a tag. And similarly with Henry Mountain's deer or any other big deer like Jason's guided in Nevada, the only reason I do it is because I like to put my hands on them. I want to hunt somewhere where I would want to tag myself. Maybe that's a little bit selfish or sounds elitish. But I want to hunt where I would want to hunt myself if I could just pick tags off the shelf.

And that's the Henry's or sheep or some of the most elite elk units. And so I've done that for the last 10 years. And as a result, I've had some great experiences and broadened my knowledge base dramatically in Utah, Nevada, Arizona, sheep hunts, things like that. So all of these things collectively add up to a lot of knowledge. Every general season hunt, you try to make something out of nothing. It still teaches you something about a unit. And some of the great hunts we go on, obviously we learn a lot from there. So collectively, it's just, you know, Jason talked about his wife and family. It's just kind of become who we are. And my wife, initially, she was a non-hunter. She wasn't an anti-hunter. I remember our first date, she asked me, are you a hunter? And I was interested in her, so I didn't really give her both barrels. I didn't want to pour it on too heavy.

You want to load the gun? Yeah. And I said, yeah. In her mind, she's like, okay, we're one and done. We're one and done. You know, first date. And we're married 20 years later now. And she's hunted. But she understands, like Jana and Jason, that this is, we don't have any bad habits in our life. We don't have a lot of other habits in our life. Yeah, this is it. And so they understand it. And it's very unique. We understand to make a hobby, the hunting world, part of our livelihood. But we feel fortunate and blessed. And to get there is a culmination of a lot of days in the field. Sure. That's the only way to get there. There's not a formula to get to this point in life. And you don't know what life's going to bring you. And I think it's just a matter of your stuff. It's a matter of 20, 30 years of dealing with it. And then all of a sudden, you know, it opens up opportunities.

And, of course, you've got to, you know, you've got to ante up and take some risk and do some things like that. And then good things happen if you're prepared for it. And there's highs and lows. And I tell everybody, you know, I work for the NRA. And they're like, how awesome is that? And I said, you know, sometimes it's not so awesome. Yeah. You know. It's not. They don't pay me to shoot guns. Exactly. I mean, there's a lot of office work. And that's the same way with Adam and I. They don't pay us to wet a line. Yeah, a lot less shooting than people most likely think. But the reality is it is. It's kind of like being a farmer. It's a way of life that you choose. And you guys are living. You know, everybody looks at you and goes, you guys are living the dream. And sometimes the dream really is harsh. Well, the dream's a nightmare. But other times. The other times.

It's not always a good dream. The other times, just like that first story that you guys were talking about when you're sitting around just going, is this ever going to happen again? Those are the moments. Those are the crystals or the diamonds that you find. And that wouldn't have happened, like you said. If you would have been doing a 9 to 5 somewhere. It wouldn't have happened. Wouldn't have happened. Had three days to go hunting. Those points. I used those points came from back when I was college days of 0% credit cards. You know, and hadn't I done that, if I would have just been working. I graduated in finance, oddly enough. But if I had just been doing that and really had focus on that and not hunting, I wouldn't have started gaining those points. I wouldn't have had that tag. That deer may have died of old age. Or maybe somebody else killed it. Sure. Absolutely.

So we're here today, and we've got Epic Outdoors. So I think we understand some of the past. But, you know, there's a ton of competition out there. And I know you guys know some of that. You guys know a lot of the competitors. But in your eyes, what sets you apart from all the competition out there, application services? I mean, is there something that you guys look at that says, you know, this is what we do, this is why we do it, and this is what makes us successful? You know, first off, I guess if we need to address the competition a little bit, we're okay with competition. We want the industry to be bigger. And we want to encourage everybody to apply. Everybody gets to have their own ways and who they support and what they do. And if they support multiple companies, which a lot of people do, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that.

And so, but, you know, we do have a focus, Adam and I and the crew at Epic, like we do have a focus and somewhat mission statement type focus of, you know, that we do want to be the best at what we do. And that's Western Big Game. We want to be the best at that. And we want to be known as guys that help people and are very personable and then practice what we preach. We've got to hunt this stuff, too, and put these animals on the ground as well. And so, whatever, that's, we're just focused on us. We're really, although every company probably does look at their competition and you got, and just like Coke might look at Pepsi and vice versa. I mean, that's smart and you probably should do that, but it's not our focus. And we want those guys to succeed. That's fine. There's enough room for everybody. Yeah.

We just want to really focus on what we do and to treat our members right and to work with our members. Yeah. We understand that this niche type service that we offer is a lot about, you got to have some credibility, understandably. You can't just go, there's no resume to become a hunting consultant, which is the only term we call ourselves. You got to call ourselves something. There's no resume for that. You become it through your life and how you hunt, how you research. But having said that, I would say that our experience, I believe, in the depth of experience is what sets us apart. And, you know, we're not going to point fingers, things like that. But really, it comes down to the relationships and credibility and how somebody can trust you with their investment of points or their investment of money and booking a hunt with an outfitter that costs them hard-earned money.

But that's what it comes down to. And we're focused on making sure we can provide that confidence and that connection and credible suggestions to our people that trust us for their points, their applications, or people that they book a hunt with. That's what's most important. If you don't have that, they'll go somewhere else and find it. And if you can't maintain it, they're going to go somewhere else and find it. And so you can't get bigger than you can handle either. And, you know, we've been very blessed and very fortunate as we've launched another component of our business, the magazine and the consulting service has gone very well. And we realize that as we continue to, you know, grow that, we need to be able to service the members.

But I think the personal touch, the personal credibility, the relationship and the knowledge that we can impart to those guys, I think they trust it and we need to maintain that. And that's why we're, I mean, our brains are just wired for the next opportunity. If you could see, going back to the non-glamorous days that we talked about a minute ago, Jason and I are in the office nearly every morning at 2 or 3 a.m. And those aren't glamorous times. It's him and I and a blank computer screen and we're cranking out a magazine. Maybe an RNA podcast here and there. That's right. Now we're working. Hey, that's okay. You bet. So we do. And, you know, you can only get there one way. Each magazine starts with 110 blank white pages of paper on a computer screen. And we turn it into that every 21 to 28 days. And a lot of work, but we're glad where we're headed for sure. Well, it's a lot of fun.

You know, I mean, looking at you guys and I remember Jason and actually I remember before you were involved and seeing the progression and watching things happen. And then for me, the guy that's been building points and applying for so many years and going, oh, my God, did you see that thing that he wrapped his hands around? And then all of a sudden seeing Epic Outdoors on TV, I'm like, know those guys, you know? And then the best part for me, and I'm a member. In fact, I don't know how I got to be so high on the member list, you know? No, I think I'm like 118. All those emails. Yeah. All those emails. I was like, dude, what's with you, you know? I said I wanted in, and now I get a notification via email that I could pay. I'm like, this was spam to everybody. But on that same note. Probably was. It was. I know it was.

But I picked up the phone, and when I called in, I think it was you that answered the phone. And that's the beautiful thing about you guys is you pick up the phone, and I know one of these days I'm going to have that tag. And when I pick up the phone and I call, you'll probably be one of the first phone calls I make. Absolutely. And one of you guys goes, hold on, let me get Adam on this conference right now, and we're going to talk about that Henry's muzzleloader tag, you know? He keeps throwing that out for that positive reinforcement for the draw gods, don't you? Hey, listen. He applied for it. The draw gods, you've got to tell them what you want, because people laugh at me when I'm like rolling a dice, and I say, okay, we're going to roll a hard six. And a hard six comes up, and everybody goes, like, I didn't have any money on it, but, you know, I mean, that was what I wanted.

Well, maybe to add on to what Adam's saying a little bit, too, is we're not, our goal is not to be the biggest. It's absolutely not our goal. We have where we, we have a sweet spot, and when we reach that sweet spot, we're going to maintain it. And I know it's been said, you know, and it's by most businesses that are smart and progressive thinking is if you're not growing, you're failing, and that's not Adam and I. We, you know, they don't, like he was saying, there's no resume to be a consultant. You can't just go hire consultants that are good or that would treat the members the way Adam and I do and take care of them the way we do and have the portfolio that we do and all of that. And so we don't take it lightly, and so there's a sweet spot that we're going to get to in a short amount of time. That's awesome.

We're coming on it, and it's one of those things that we're just going to maintain that. We want a sweet little business for the next, until we retire, and we want to treat people right. We want to have awesome experiences in the hunting industry. We want to be a significant part of the hunting industry, but there's room for everybody, and we definitely don't want to be the biggest. That's for other people. Yeah. Yeah, so different business plan. It's almost you want to be specialized versus, you know, swath three miles wide and two inches deep. You want to swath, you know, narrower but deeper but have a much more specialized business. But it's our passion. We don't want to get out of our passion. Yeah. Love what you do, and the money will follow. Western North America. That's it. You know, and when it comes to the draws, obviously, Western, lower 48 states, but that's it.

But, you know, one other thing, you know, there are other pieces and parts that offer some of what our service offers. But to do a license application service from people that want us to take care of that. Jason and I pick every unit for every single guy. And we're still applying every single person, ourselves, him and I. We look at and submit for every single person, ourselves. That may change down the road as we, you know, have to, you know, take on more responsibilities as owners. But we'll still pick every unit. We will still pick every unit, ourselves. And, you know, the magazine, you know, it's for the people that just need a little bit more information to be able to make their own decisions than call in and talk to us. So there's other services out there that maybe offer odds here and there or offer, you know,

a magazine but don't offer the calling and ability to call and strategize or don't offer a licensed application service. I think we've got something for everybody. But at the same time, very specialized something for everybody, not abroad, not hot dogs for everybody. Yeah. Awesome. So coming to this expo, I mean, you guys, typically the booth is, you know, it's a 15-, 20-minute wait. You've got a guy that walks up and he says, you know, hey, man, I've never applied before, but I want to start. I need help. What's your advice to a guy like that versus a guy that comes up and says, man, I got max points. I mean, let's talk to the guy who he's new in the game, probably a little bit behind in the game. But what do you tell him? Well, we usually start with what species are you interested in. And so what do you want to hunt?

I mean, in my opinion, you need to have the 20-plus year plan, the 10-plus year plan, and then the now plan. People want to hunt now. They do want to hunt now, and there's opportunities for them right now. But then as you're going along, like if you can't say 10 years from now, I want to hunt sheep and start 10 years from now, that's not going to work. So do you ever want to hunt sheep? Yes. Okay. Here's the states that we recommend and the point systems. And these are the states you should be gaining points in. You know, and in most cases, we're going to, you know, we recommend that you apply for a unit along the way. You may get lucky and get it your first year. And then for deer and elk, we do the same thing. You know, and a lot of it is, you know, how proficient they are with the weapons and how long or what quality they want to hunt.

Like if you're hunting 350-plus only bulls, that guy might wait a little bit or he needs to supplement with landowner tags or a guided hunt. We can help with all that as well. So, you know, it just depends. Everybody's situation is unique. And I think that, you know, to add on to what Adam was talking about as far as us picking units, it's not something we take likely. Every single person, and we're looking at, what, 50 people right here. I mean, every single person has different desires. And just because I desire something doesn't mean it's right. That just fits me. Yeah. And my application strategy would be different than others. And we all look at what each other is doing, and we might take a piece of that and say, oh, that's smart.

You know, maybe I would do an over-the-counter or something in Idaho or, you know, build some general points in Utah or something and be able to hunt that every two years or something while I'm waiting for, like you say, the Henrys. Or while I'm just going to wait for the Henrys. And a deer hunter has got to kill some deer, buddy. I know. I mean, we're not just going to wait for the strip. We're not just going to hunt the Henrys. We're going to hunt zero, one, two, three-point units in Colorado. I mean, Adam and I are doing that ourselves. And we eat some tags, and sometimes we get lucky. And so, anyway, there's a strategy that you need a short-term, mid-term, long-term strategy, and we help with all that. I think the number one thing we try to have these hunters do, especially if they're brand new, is we try to paint a pretty clear picture of some of these are 20-plus point states.

They've been around for a while. So, if you only want 190-plus deer and 350, 370-type bulls, and you don't have the money to do it, it's a tougher outlook to start. You're going to naturally start with the Idaho's and maybe New Mexico, where they don't have a point system. But everybody's uniquely different. You know, species, weapon type, physical abilities, things like that. We try to clean as much of that. Our state recommendations then, we'll try to match that personal hunter. And the next guy that comes up to us, we might not even bring up something to him because it's different. This guy's, you know, 26 years old. Another guy's 60 years old. That's a big consideration, too. And one guy loves archery elk. You're generally going to have better opportunities to draw archery elk tags than early rifle bulls. You know, we all know that.

So, just try to customize their expectations, their goals to them. And our recommendations, we'll try to reflect that. So, on the topic of hunting, so we've talked a little bit about the business. And, okay, so now we're going to be drawing tags. So, I'm going to ask both of you guys this question, and it's going to be specific to species animals. So, Jason, what drives you to mule deer? And, Adam, what drives you to sheep?

Well, I think even Adam might, I think, would agree to this. But we're all deer hunters at heart. We've all grown up with deer. That's what you can draw on a regular basis. Like Adam said, I mean, I've killed a slam. Adam's killed a lot of sheep. I mean, and so, but you can't hunt them every year. So, what are you going to do? And we hunt deer. I mean, here in the West, if you were raised here in the West, you hunt deer. But for me, you know, I did take it to the next level or two. And I think it's just, you know, back in the day, I would say early 90s, you know, you would get a magazine or something, maybe Eastman's or something, and you'd see like some 250 buck killed out of Idaho. We didn't have social media, and so we didn't see them as a regular occurrence as we're seeing them now. I mean, I could flip through my phone today and show you some 200-inch plus deer.

We didn't have that back then. And it was so unique. It was mind-blowing that they were even mule deer. It's like a different species to see a 250, a 240, something in the magazines. And I was just, I wanted one so bad. I just had so much respect for deer. I was hunting deer. I had so much respect for them, and yet I'd never seen one. I'd never seen a deer like that. And I'm one of those guys that I'm not going to take no for an answer. Oh, they're not around. It used to be good you should have been born in the 50s, 60s, or, you know, prior to that, and then hunting in the 50s. I'm not going to take that for an answer. Somewhere there is a deer dying of old age that has the right genetics, that had the right feed, and looks like that buck. And where is he? And I'm going to try to find him. You know, I'm going to do the best I can. I'm going to spend my life doing it.

And so even though it's rare, and even though it isn't the 50s, 60s, 80s, whatever case you were going to be talking about, there's still giants out there. And I'm just going to do all I can to hunt them. And then once you get going, it's an addiction. Once you get started and you start following, to do that, you know, my strategy was to follow specific deer. So I followed, you know, maybe we'd have four on the hit list of specific deer, and you'd find that one would jump from 180. You know, my first really big deer, second 200-incher, went from, you know, 187 to 237 in one year. And so netted 234. And so, you know, how did I know that? Well, we're following specific deer. And that was my strategy. Now, we've got to have the hit list. One of them, one out of the four gets killed by a lion. One doesn't show up, and the other two are back better than ever.

And then part of that is you can't just find these deer on the Arizona Strip because how are you going to hunt them, you know? So we've got to hunt them on a regular basis. So I didn't go guide on the Arizona Strip. It's like Adam was talking about on why he's guiding sheep and where he's doing it so he can use the knowledge for himself. I'm hunting and guiding in Nevada knowing I can draw and get landowner tags. I could go guide on the Strip, and I get to put my hands on big stuff, but I can only hunt there once in my life, so to speak, in all reality. Yeah. So, A, I want the hit list, but I need to have the hit list in a place I can get a tag every year and be able to hunt those specific deer for maybe three years, maybe four years. But that drive came from early age, just loving mule deer, being raised around mule deer, and can't get enough of them.

I want to put my hands on something truly special. That's neat. Yeah, just to briefly echo that, if we knew what we knew when we were 12 or 14, I wouldn't have played high school football because I'm not going to go to college and play that. I would have hunted more because they were around. They were around. In the 80s. There was giants. And I say that to this day that we, the deer, we could hunt all three weapons on a general tag, and you're hunting 190 deer on every season back then. We hunted muzzleloader in the rut back then on General, Utah. And with Ponsagot deer, we're coming over to the general side, and we're hunting them. 200-inch deer. I mean, and so to just kind of tell you why I brought that up, those opportunities are rare now. They're hard. Killing a big mule deer is the hardest thing out there. It is. There's no question.

And so anywhere you can do that or associate with somebody and a good client that draws a tag or something, you want to do it. It's a drive to do it. And doing it once just makes it harder to want to do it again. Jason and I, we call it, it's like we won the Super Bowl. You know, he'll kill one with a client in Nevada, maybe I in Utah. And I'm like, dude, you won the Super Bowl today. And it's that equivalent. And it just tees it up again to next year to want to do it again. And when it comes to sheep, we've said it before, but, you know, I've taken 50, 55 sheep the last eight years with clients. And it's just sheer the opportunity to hunt sheep and the places where they live. I love to do it. I've got a body to do it right now. When I hit 60, 65, it's going to slow down. And I'm not going to say I wish I'd have done that because I've got the body to do it now.

I'm only going to draw one sheep tag in Utah in my life probably. Why not take 100, 150 others along the way over my lifetime? Sure. So it's just a lot of fun doing it. Sharing that experience. Well, on that note, it was really funny that you brought this up. I always mention that Henry's tag. Well, my brother-in-law, I told him about it just because of all the research that I did and probably talking to you and your dad and back and forth. And he had 10 points, 8 points. He draws the one non-resident archery tag. And I called you. I mean, you were like my first phone call. I talked to Adam and Jason. Adam was busy. He had another client. And so my brother-in-law went with somebody else. Well, I didn't get to go on the first seven or eight days because I was working. But I went on like day eight. And OMG. I mean, I was like, I got there.

And it was just like, you know, I've been a black tail my whole life. Okay, we're talking a big one, you know. 12 inches wide. You're talking miniature mill there. Exactly. Exactly. You pull in. And I mean, I'd seen some nice deer. Dude, every corner we went around, I was just like, well, I told Lucas this. I said, God, I'm just waiting for somebody that I know to draw a Henry's tag and say, hey, you were there once before. You think you'd like to go along? I'm like, dude, I'll cancel like everything. Cancel everything. All the podcasts. Done. Done. Dude, we can podcast on the mountain. That's right. We're on the mountain. You know, just for that opportunity, that one getting to go, you feel like you're part of it. That's the beautiful part. Yeah. That's right. Anyway, living the dream. Living the dream.

So, based on that discussion with, you know, mule deer, sheep, I guess, to you guys, what is your measure of success? I mean, is it truly the largest deer out there? You know, is it the experience? Is it an older class? Is it the chase? I mean, what is it about you that drives you for that success? Every tag is different. We have general season deer tags ourselves every year in Utah. And sometimes expectations are a little bit different. Sometimes we get tags in places where no one else wants to hunt out in the desert. But we might find one deer worth it. So, for me, it's trying to maximize that individual tag. You know, antelope aren't high on our list. I drew an Arizona antelope tag last year. It's totally an afterthought, an add-on, and has been for eight or ten years. Well, I still, when I had it, I knew Arizona's known for pretty big antelope.

They're way down here on my priority list. But, overall, I wanted to maximize it. And I went down there with that intention. And it's killing a great buck, killing an 87-inch antelope. And that tag is unique to that. Didn't have max points. Didn't have max points. And so, I draw Henry's tag. The bars and the expectation are a little bit different. A two- or three-point elk unit in Wyoming is going to be different than a unit 23 or a 10 elk. And so, for me, every tag kind of sets its own bar a little bit. But I want to maximize it. I want to kill, you know, when I say the best, it's generally the higher end. Or else, I just don't kill it. My kids are getting to the age. They can start hunting. I get to take clients. I get to be a part of a lot of hunts. And those hunts, shooting two-year-old three-point bucks, static. That's all I want to find because they don't care. And that's 100%.

Every hunt is a different bar. And so, it's not all about inches. A lot of the tags maybe that Jason and I reply for and want over the years that we're still waiting for points. That's the case. But we still have other hunts in there that we go on just to have fun. And especially those with our kids or things like that. So, it totally, the tag drives my expectations. That's exactly. Yep. That's exactly what I feel. I mean, we're out there because we want to kill big stuff. And, of course, we like to put on, you know, put our hands around some big animals. But, you know, like I hunted with my kids a lot this year. And, of course, we knocked down some great deer with, you know, also. But my kids' hunts were the best hunts I went on this year. And, you know, it's just that. It's not. And I know, you know, people may not believe it just because we do put a lot of emphasis on the animal.

And we've named them. And we're hunting specific animals. But, you know, and sometimes we'll kill them. And it's almost anticlimactic or whatnot. But it's like Adam said. When everything comes together, you get the right tag. You got the right hunt. You got the right people in camp. And everything's jiving. And then, you know, if you're fortunate enough to be successful, then that's really the icing on the cake. But it just depends on the situation. Kids, clients, and us as well. Yeah. That's cool. We talked about it a little bit. I think, you know, success is different for everyone. And that's what makes it neat. I mean. Yeah. Your vision of success is different than mine. And I think that's what makes, you know, all of this fun and what makes it happen. 12-year-old hunter's vision of what happens. Or even when we were 12.

I remember when I was 12, man, everything that was legal should die. You know. And if I had two tags, that means I had to shoot twice as much. I took one of my youngest boys on his first turkey hunt. And when we finally killed a turkey, I mean, it was unbelievable experience, you know. And for me, that's hunting, man. That's everything to me. Right. You know, I haven't killed a turkey in I don't know how long. And really, to me, it's just about my kids and that kind of stuff now. They can't leave school like we used to. And so they're very limited. And two and three day spans, we went up to Idaho, literally had half a day to hunt. We couldn't leave school on Friday. Had to be back for church on Sunday to keep mama happy. And so we have Saturday morning and then got to drive home and we killed a deer, you know.

And I mean, so anyway, back in the day, you know, Adam and I, we'd go a whole week without school for turkey maybe. You know what I mean? Now, there's no way they're leaving, you know, school for a week. A couple days. Even if it's a Henry's tag. All their sports teams and everything else they're involved in. That's crazy. Even a 10, 12-year-old. My kid was sick. I don't know what you guys are talking about. That works sometimes. That's a good point. I'm just saying they look peaking to me for a whole week. I don't know why that is. But the kids feel enough pressure, they don't want to leave. It's unbelievable anymore. Yeah. So, Jason, I'm sitting here, I'm watching your New Mexico hunt here, or your Nevada hunt, excuse me. And I watched the video and I think I'd send it to you too. And such a neat storyline, you know, finding this buck, making multiple, you know, attempts at this buck.

You know, when you wrapped your herons around the horns of that buck, I mean, what was the exhilaration of that? I don't think you can explain it. I think anybody that's been there, it's, you know, it's just, it's unexplainable. When things come together like that and you target a specific animal, I mean, it's one thing to walk around in the woods with an arrow knocked and just hoping to find a buck, right? And we've all been there. I've done it. I did it on the Kaibab and super thick forest, you know, where you're just, hey, I just want a buck when I was younger. And that's what I did. Now we're targeting specific animals. And when you watch that animal grow and this particular buck, you know, you do get the arrow in him. He does die. And then you walk up. I mean, it's, we hoot and holler a fair bit.

But a lot of it is, and you don't see it and it doesn't come across on video is the reverence we have for these animals. It is, it's hard to explain. You love them. You name them. You love them. You watch them. And then you harvest them. And you get to have them, you know, in your house forever. And, of course, you eat them. Your family eats them. But it's different. It's the highs and the lows. It really is. Well, and it's hard to explain the feeling of the respect. And then you respect it. And then why did you kill it if you respect it so much? And it's something I can't explain. Yeah. You know? Yeah, it's okay. I mean, you don't have to have an explanation for it. Only hunters understand. I saw it. It is. When you ran over to that deer and sat behind it and you could just tell, you know, just looking at the expression on your face, that you didn't have to say anything. Yeah. Right?

You didn't have to do anything. Just the time and energy you put into these animals and at that time when it pays off, there's no other greater feeling. And that's kind of one of those emotions. You know, you say you can't explain it. I, as a viewer and as a guy that's dreamed about stuff and had opportunities to do things, when I see you in that moment, I understand. It actually kind of makes me emotional. You know, it's like you, maybe you knew that deer for two or three years, you know? And when you saw him the first time, you thought, well, if that deer ever survives past the next couple of years, he'll be great. I mean... Well, and when you really understand it is when you realize that he's not going to be there next year and the anticipation of checking trail cameras or glassing him up and seeing what he turned into for the first time on July 10th or whatever it is,

and he's not there anymore. Charlie's dead, you know? And it's... You know, there's a lot that goes into this, and we're always at him, too. He's on the Henrys working all summer long for multiple years in a row, and you've got bucks. He's watched bucks for three and four years, and all of a sudden, you know, hopefully it's one of his clients that harvests him. But either way, if the deer does die, you know, that deer's dead, and he doesn't leave you. Like, you remember that deer. He's still got deer that, you know, he talks about and we talk about and whatnot because he shared those experiences with me. If I'm off in Nevada, he's coming back from the Henrys, and we're sharing deer that we've got and found, and you share in that. But it's one of those things that those deer never leave you. They're kind of a part of you. They teach you things, watching them.

I watch deer do crazy things, walk around a boulder 15 times before he beds, looking straight up, you know, wondering if there's a lion on the boulder. I kill him, and he's got great big scars across his neck. He was hit by a lion and survived. Very aware. And that deer... Jumped off that rock. Yeah, I've watched him when a truck drives by. They go and move behind the bitter brush, stare at the truck. Truck drives by pretty soon. He twitches his tail, comes back and feeds again. I mean, you just watch these animals, and you become part of them, and every animal has a personality, and every animal has a pattern, and they teach you things. And then to harvest them and not be able to go back and see what they would have turned in the next year and the next year, I mean, it's unexplainable. It's not somewhat sad.

But also, to be able to harvest them is a respect thing, but it's weird to explain it, and only hunters would get it. Yeah. I think you sum it up. Only hunters get it, right? And it's that experience. And hopefully we can introduce new people to our passion. I mean, that's for me with the NRA, that's the biggest thing. I want to see these kids. I want to see my kids have opportunities. And that's the scary thing, because I look at applying for 20 years and not drawing tags. You know, and I look at my kids and go, whew, that's a tough one, especially when one says, especially when one is like gung-ho, wants to do it all, and thinks they should automatically have the biggest thing in the world. I want to hunt a sheep this year, Dad. Yeah. That's what my son's telling me. And he gets it. Unfortunately, they're kind of tainted, because our kids, they know what we do for a living.

We talk pretty frank about it. I'll bring a deer home. My boy would be like, it's pretty small, Dad. That's all you could find? I mean, literally. A 195-inch book or something. Sean, do you know what you just told me? I mean, Sean, you have a kill a deer like that. You know? Do I have to remind you? And he's just very critical. I mean, I love him. They're just so into it. They're as into it as we are. But you've spoiled him by bringing stuff home, dude. Well, he knows, and he sifts through the camera pictures, and he glasses with a tripod. I mean, he wants my binos. He's disgusted when he's not got the swallows on them. I mean, and they fight over my 15s. I mean, and I love it. I love it. Isn't that awesome? Yeah. So looking at 2017, what do you guys, I guess from a plan, not only from Epic Outdoors, but personally, I mean, what do you guys have planned for 17?

Obviously, this is like your first big year of putting out the magazine, so that's obviously a big deal. But what else do you guys have in store for this year? Oh, as far as Epic? As far as Epic Outdoors? Yeah. So as far as Epic Outdoors, I mean, we've bid off a lot. We're doing the monthly publication. It covers all the Western states, drawing odds, kill percentages, best units. So we're publishing that. We do a licensed application service. We're buying and selling landowner tags, helping guys obtain those. We also brought Jeff John on, who's my brother-in-law. He's our booking agent proper, you know, booking agent that works with our clients, works with the outfitters, and sells guaranteed type tag hunts to people that may not draw or may not apply. Or if they're applying, they would like to go on a hunt anyway with a landowner tag and an outfitter.

And so we're doing that as well as podcasts. We're doing podcasts where a lot of our content is based off of working with the state biologists, outfitters, the heads of these organizations, the directors of the game and fish agencies. And we're doing that, which will be in alignment with our magazine as far as content-driven, working with, you know, people that are significant people within the hunting industry, as well as YouTube. So we've got Epic Outdoors YouTube, which is up and going, and we're going to be filming our hunts and dealing with all that. And so we've got some plans for the future. Don't really want to unveil them yet just because we've got a lot on our plate right now, and we want to really refine that and get it solid. And then we're going to keep moving forward. Yeah, that's right. Cool. And I think, Lucas, you talked a little bit about our hunts.

We've definitely got some hunts this year that we're trying to plan our schedule around. So I hope to get an Arizona archery elk tag this year. We'll see if it's enough, my 15 points. So that one's – I've got to throw that out there, you know, like Jason did, and see if the draw of God will do anything with it. 23 now? 23 now? I didn't put in there. I did not dream that big. That question was if we had enough points and it didn't matter you were going to get it. Yes. Now when you have a certain amount of points and you dictate – You apply for what you can get. And the best of what – you know, the best that you can get for that point too. There's beautiful bulls there. You'll find one. Every unit has a good bull. Great dates for Arizona this year. Great moon in the archery. And I had it kind of circled, you know, three years, four years ago when I knew that, hey,

this would be a year, probably won't be able to – won't have to guide maybe quite as much. Epic will be up and running more. Dates are kicking late. And so that for me, maybe Arizona deer. Jason's cashed his points in a few years ago. Maybe this is the year I do that this year. I hope Adam arrives. We've definitely marked that off on the schedule. I may do both. That's to the epic gods. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Those are kind of two. I'm also top heavy. I've had 50-50 drawing odds for my own desert sheep tag in Utah the last two years. Okay. So I'm not a very lucky person apparently. One year it was actually literally me and one other guy for the max point tag and he got it. So that's as unlucky as you can get. All right? Wow. So that one is also a big deal in my personal hunting career life. Sure.

I want, you know, as a sheep guide and I don't want to book six or eight hunters and draw my own tag that year. Sure. I want to hopefully see it coming. But those are the three for me that are kind of driving a little bit of my whole application strategy. And then I alluded to it either, my kids. I have a 13-year-old daughter, 12-year-old son. I want to kill their first deer in Utah this year with them mule deer. So that's a big part of my fall, those four hunts. That's awesome. And he can't draw anything because when you draw two of them, he's going to have to cancel all plans. He's going to have some. And fortunately, we know the magnitude of some of these tags. You know, I drew a Utah elk tag in 2008. Jason was right there. It's the same year he drew his desert sheep tag in Utah. So we literally went for my elk, went home, did our laundry, and went hit his desert sheep.

Wow, they did laundry. That's impressive. I like clean laundry. Yeah, that's right. So we do plan around some of our, you know, we obviously can't be on every one of our hunts together because sometimes we're at the same time in opposite states. Adam's deer hunt, if he draws the deer, it's an extremely tough hunt. And it's one of those we could knock down an absolute monster. And so, anyway, those are the times when you, you know, you band together and you make it happen because he's not going to have this tag again. It might be that. It might be a chance. I don't expect a 270 buck, but, you know, a 200-inch plus deer, that's what we're hunting. And we realize that when those points are gone, they're gone. And we'll be back to chasing average, you know, opportunity hunts or coos deer in Arizona or things like that. You guys get me all worked up here.

I don't know if I can handle the pressure anymore. Well, you've got a lot of points. Arizona, you've got points here. You're hopefully dumping points. Well, like I said, 20 years ago, eight or nine states started. That's what it takes. Doing the same thing. That's a long-term plan. And, you know, you've hunted since then. So, it's not, you know, you've got a short-term, mid-term, long-term plan. That's what you've got to do. That's right. All related to this table right here, you know. That's right. Well, I just want to thank you guys. You know, your insight, you know, clearly from an outdoor standpoint, there's a ton of credibility in what you guys say. And, you know, I'm very grateful to have, you know, guests like you guys on our podcast. Not only from a technical standpoint, you guys understand the applications, you understand where people should apply based on their plans.

But also from a tactical standpoint, I mean, to get guys on here that get it done, you know, like I said, I know you guys are modest. But, you know, when you look at some of the animals you guys have harvested, clearly I would take, you know, information from you guys knowing that you guys have done it before. So, we appreciate it. You know, from us, we thank you. They haven't said this the whole time, which I don't know what the hell is wrong with both these guys, but it's $100 for a membership. Yeah. Anybody listening to this, it's $100. You could pick up the phone and call one of these guys and say, what do you think about this? And they'll give you an honest answer. I mean, if you're max points, they're going to tell you, yeah, that's what you're going for. If you've got two points, they're going to say, well, you'll never draw that unless you don't want to hunt this year.

And you just want the one unlucky tag chance. And then they'll direct you where you want to go. We try to steer guys to the truth. I mean, we're not going to sugarcoat things. I mean, we're all excited, but we're not going to try to sugarcoat things. We want you to understand and try to hook you up with the right opportunities that fit you. Yeah. And so we just do the best we can at it. We want our members to be clients for life. We're not in the business of, you know, we don't want to, you know, have turnover in clientele every two or three years. We want to deal with the same guy for 20-plus years. And then we know we've got a solid business. And that's really what I try to echo to all the people that are listening out there is these guys are going to be here. This is their passion. They're not going anywhere.

And if you get an opportunity for $100 to lock in with these guys and just build 10 years from now, or maybe in my case, 20 years down the road, you'll be sitting at the table with them, and they'll be all talking about the same thing. Well, now I'm at that stage where the 20-year plan is about to happen. Yep. That's right. Kind of like you're talking about, man, I'm going to get that sheep tag. A lot's changed. I mean, when I started playing for sheep, that was the first sheep tag I needed, and I assumed that would be the first one I would draw. I've been fortunate enough to kill a doll and a stone, and Jason and I both got lucky and drew California Bighorn in Oregon. So my desert's going to finish me off probably in my own state when I thought that would be my first and maybe only sheep. You don't know what a long-term plan brings, but you've got to have a plan when you start something.

Yeah. So how can people get a hold of you guys? I mean, social media, internet, I mean, what's the best way if someone wanted to sign up? Yeah, we've got Epic underscore Hunts, you know, on Instagram. We're on Facebook. It's epicoutdoors.com on the web. You can call in. We've got e-mails, Jason at epicoutdoors.com, Adam, Adam at epicoutdoors.com. Anyway, love to have you. You can sign up online and look forward to visiting to you. Good deal. Absolutely. Well, thanks, guys, for being on. Thanks, Jason, for helping me co-host with these guys. I appreciate your guys' insight, like I said. Look forward to keeping in contact with you guys, you know, as we continue to build more points and look for, you know, some of those different tags that are available. I think you guys can help shed a lot of light on some of those units and states

and not only help us, help other people out there and get the word out. So anyway, thanks, guys, for being on. Thank you. Appreciate it. We'll keep in touch. Thank you.