EP 150: Strange Times, Corona, Colorado, Idaho, Montana.

I feel a little crowded on the second season. I don't want to hoard points. I want to hunt. Great opportunity for drawing odds. Our members draw a large portion of the Idaho Sheep Tags every year. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, John Peterson, Chris Peterson, as well as Devin. How you doing, Devin? Good, good. Good. Well, we're all meeting here in Chris's office. There's less than 100 people in here so we can meet together. That's right. Our governor came out and said we shouldn't meet in groups of 100 or more because of the coronavirus. Do you guys have the coronavirus? Because if you do, I'm going to invite you to step out. Pretty sure we've already had it twice this winter. We've been over this. Yeah. You guys have already had it. I survived. I think so. And even if we did have it, we wouldn't know it. We're all stronger because of it. I'm pretty sure we had it at least twice through the office this winter. Thanking our lucky stars that we had it. Yeah.

If you had it, do you still have it to transmit it to others? No. Or does it go away? It's like a snake bite. You build up immunity. Now you're stronger. Okay. Survived. Well, anyway, anybody out there that's... It's like Kelly Clarkson says. What does she say? What does she say? What doesn't kill you makes you stronger? Oh. I don't know. That might be... Bronson is... You're more of a Beyonce, right? No. No. That was you and Wyatt, if you remember. Oh, yeah. That's right.

So, anyway. Anyway. Anybody out there that's suffering from the coronavirus besides economically, we feel bad for you. We feel bad economically as well. We may even hit the hunting world. I don't know. People are shutting down, Bronson. Unlike when you don't trade money and everybody stays in their house, things shut down. Money needs to be trading hands. Jason Aldean's on Instagram right now telling everybody he can't finish out his tour. Doesn't matter what it is. You know, NBA or college sports or high school sports now hitting Utah shut down for two weeks. Home loans are getting harder and harder to come by. Spring break, people are encouraged to not even go on spring break because you're going to go on all corners of the world and bring stuff back. It's just a bad time. NCAA March Madness. They're calling it March Sadness now, I saw on the... I'm serious. I just saw that. Come on.

No, I just saw that. Houston Rodeo canceled. Come on. Houston Rodeo. Wow. That's like a... Didn't even know they did one. 20-day... 20 more days of Rodeo, yeah. Well, why wouldn't join us? But that beats the Ute Stampede. You know what I think is funny about Wyatt not joining us? He must be scared that he's going to get the coronavirus from us in our work environment. I don't know. It's the first time he's passed on one of his. He's locking himself into his room and acting like he's working, and it's bugging me a little bit. We should give Wyatt a call. What do you think? Give him a call. Ring him up. All right. Here we go. Let's see if he'll even answer his phone.

If he doesn't answer.

Hello. What are you doing? I'm working on New Mexico. Well, you're live on the Epic Outdoors podcast. How are you doing? Good. Good. I don't understand why you don't want to be with us over here. Wyatt, are you used to work where you guys play all the time? You've already went for fish today. Come on. That's an hour-long lunch break then. Who's counting? Wyatt.

Did you go to Brad's? No. I went and got a tropical smoothie right here because it's two minutes away. So I can get back here in New Mexico so our guys get taken care of. Who came in before the other guys this morning? It's getting deep. Who came in before the other guys? You guys do work hard and do come in early. So, I mean, I can't really. You can say I hold a candlestick, but I just like to give you crap. I'm just wondering if you were afraid you're going to get the coronavirus if you had to quarantine yourself. Is that what this is about? I never know what shady joints you guys go to for lunch.

There's a few holes in the wall lunch spots that we visit. That's true. Well, look at it. Bring your coat in the wintertime. They have enough pepper sauce on it that usually kills most viruses and bacteria. If you eat enough salsa or tomato-based or pepper-based sauce, feed. Mexican food will be the last stuff you get sick on, no question. It's going to burn it out of your system. Probably the spice and everything involved in it, you're probably okay. I do have a question for you. Yeah. A couple of them, actually. Kind of wondering, yeah, I'll lead off with this one, and then we'll let these guys have another couple questions. But we're just wondering, your significant other. Okay. She's a nurse, right? Correct. Okay. And so she's probably extra prone to getting the coronavirus, meaning, like, because she's serving and giving. You know what I mean?

She's in sick areas helping people that are sick. And I'm just wondering how that's going to affect your relationship. Are you telling her that you need a 30-day reprieve from visiting or anything like that? How are you two going to move forward with the coronavirus? I haven't really thought about that, I guess. I think it's important that you need to cover some of those issues in your relationship. What do you think? Okay. We might have to hit her up and just kind of say, hey, nurse, you know, she doesn't act too worried about it. So I don't think I should be too worried about it. Do you ever act like you're sick to just get a little more service, you know, a little nurse assistance? A little more service and giving you. You would put up? Peanut butter bars. Yeah, the cookies, the peanut butter bars. I love those. No, they just show up. What happened? Back in the kidney stone days.

Oh, how hard did you milk that?

I only saw her the one time. She didn't even answer my phone call when I was in so much pain headed to the hospital. Well, that's because it was at three in the morning. And you were crawling to your truck. She was working a night shift. She was awake. Yeah, she can't answer. She's serving and giving, like we said. Yeah. She told you to toughen up, that she sees us every day? Yeah, basically. Yeah. I thought it was my appendix, but she thought it was kidney stones. So, I didn't really enjoy talking to her at that point in time anyway. Well, all right. Devin, we're going to kick off a little game, a couple Q&A games, but it's going to name that unit. We're going to. This might turn into a regular. Who knows? This first one's just for you. You ready?

Why are you still there? Are we talking to me? Yeah. You've got to name this unit. Are you ready? It's 11 to 11. No. No, no, no, no. It's more like finish the sentence, name the unit. You ready? Okay. The bull that ruined the. The book cliffs.

What? Tell us the back story. I killed an elk on the book cliffs, and Wyatt calls it the bull that ruined the book cliffs. Why? Ask Wyatt. What's that about, Wyatt? Was it the big Skronsky bull, or what was it? No, I killed it. No, there was this little hole-in-the-wall banquet in northern Utah that sold the book cliffs elk tag for three years in a row at anywhere from $1,900 to $2,400, you know, some spread like that. Archibald buys it one year, and then the next year it just skyrocks. Once he put it on the map. Yeah, Wyatt. Exactly. I said, you ought to call him, and I called him. One time thing. Yeah. I think it went to Vegas at another event. They're like, we can't. Went for like eight, but I bought it for $2,400. We can't have these cheap Utah guys stealing this anymore. They sent it to the main elk camp at Cowboy Christmas from then on. The bull that ruined the book cliffs.

I've got another question for you, Wy-Wy. Okay. Name that unit. The unit that you applied for here in Utah this year.

I don't know if that's the game. Let's have it. I'm going to have a little computer file here and see what I actually did. Oh, come on. I'm sorry. Things are blocked down. My computer's coughing. Hey, I'm on a cell phone. I'm losing your bad service. Going through a tunnel right now. Things are sketchy in the hen house over here. I don't know. I'm going through a tunnel, guys. I want to catch up with you later. Well, we had to involve you to some extent and call and raise you in. Make sure you're doing all right. Stay hydrated over there. Drink plenty of fluids. And cross your fingers. We'll do. Stay out of the monsters. They're not good for kidney stones. Yeah, you don't worry about me diving into those. But we do have a repressed supply. Have you ever had any creatine since those kidney stones? No. No. Of course not. I guess. Isn't that kind of the thing?

Maybe creatine caused it, possibly? That's what I heard at the Hunt Expo. I did have a conversation with the guy that brought that up. When you were back, when you were bulking up a little bit, it just caused a few stones. Yeah, most likely. I don't know about bulking up. All right. Well, good luck to you. All right. Keep working, bud. Keep working, okay? I'll see you later. So we did, as a lot of you know, here at Epic Outdoors, we put out a new magazine. It's the March issue, 2020. We're cranking. It is March. And this one covered Colorado, all species in Colorado, as well as Idaho, sheep, goat, and moose. And that's Montana. Deer and elk in Montana. That's right. But let's kick off. Thank your sponsors, Carter. And let's knock this off. Talk about the March magazine. We do want to thank our sponsors, us here at Epic Outdoors, as well as Under Armour. We appreciate them as well.

And anyway, kind of exciting. This is an exciting time of year. I've answered about 14 calls. Myself, Bronson, he's probably answered 14 on Colorado Deer as well. Since lunch. Yeah. That's right. Since this hour-long lunch that YY accuses of having. Jeez. And we were just doing business. I don't get it. Isn't that a federally mandated lunch? Period. And he felt a little disgruntled. 15-minute breaks twice a day in an hour. Isn't that standard? I don't know. We're getting beat up over that? We don't even take our 15-minute breaks. I don't know. Sometimes. I don't know. We might have to. We sometimes get the mail while we're out. Yeah. Some stretches into it a little bit. But anyway. Anyway. He's timing us. We did manage to put out a magazine so we can't be too disgruntled. That's right. Anyway, within this, it's awesome. This is one of our favorite issues. It's jammed full.

Awesome stories. We start off with our cover. What an awesome buck. Taken by Gordon Nelson. There out of the Gunnison Basin country. Killed a 210-incher, I believe. I'm going from memory. Yep. 210 inches. Big enough. 202. With an extra point of 210 growth. So anyway. What a giant. What an awesome. We appreciate Gordon. Super good guy. Works with SCI, actually. And he's based out of here in Utah. So anyway. Appreciate him. We also had an article from Roger Smithson. Bronson. Super good friend of ours. Talking about this next 30 years. You know, we talked on a podcast, Bronson, about kind of the years that we may have gone through to this point. Some of which were wasted. And how we wish we could go back. And he's saying, hey, even though the next 30 years you can almost wrap your arms around them and you can see the end, they're actually our best 30. What do you think?

Any validity to that? I can see truth in anything there. Yep. That's right. But I would take 1985 to 92 again if I could do it. Yeah. For hunting deer in Utah. With the knowledge you have today. Yeah. I mean, I didn't go to the NFL. So I probably, at the time, I loved football. I probably would not have played football in high school. No way. I mean, it was fun. That's saying a lot coming from a sports family. Well. Huh? 1A football. I mean, this is a guy. We were good. This is a guy that's truck matches the colors from high school. You know what I'm saying? I mean, he buys a brand new truck because it's orange and black. That's happened once in my life. I don't do that every truck. That just happened once. Screams midlife crisis to me. They don't. Screams midlife crisis. Oh, you sound like one of my daughters. Jeez. Everything's fine, alive, and well. I'm not going through anything.

Not trying to go back to high school. Hey, they didn't make orange and black trucks 20 years ago. So. Come on. They didn't. Name one from 1980. 1972, Chef. Didn't they have some orange ones? Some burnt orange. There were a couple of those two-tone rocker panel black. Yes. Yes. With wood paneling inside. The reason I know that is guys in Monastol, Utah, had one. 72, Chef's were out. I think they were out by the 80s, though. Huh? I don't think they were out by the 80s. Yeah. Not when I could drive them. I'd like to go back to a 72, Chef. They were 70s trucks. By the time I was driving in the mid, early, late 80s, early 90s, they were on to pastels and whatever, earth tones. Anybody out there has a 72, Chef or a 76, Highboy or something like that, let me know. I don't know why I like them. Did you buy another truck today? No. Let's get on that before we talk to Colorado. Come on.

We were cruising through this. Yes. But quick hiatus. You guys, you listeners have heard for years the rash of crap we give to Carter about trucks. Okay? Why do it again? You can't drive anywhere in our hometown or anywhere in the world with him without him pointing out a truck that would be good for this, that, or the other in his life. And he's often stopped and put business cards under the wipers of people saying, if you ever want to sell this truck, call me. Strangers. Just a truck. Why does that have to come? What does that have to do with today? And why? Why? You just bought a new truck for no... I don't know why. It wasn't. It's not new. It's not new. Okay. A truck that is new to you. Yeah. And tell us about that. It's a stick shift Toyota Tacoma. Yes. And that truck... We've talked about trying to pry why it's out of him.

I was hoping you needed an O2 sensor and now I'm replacing the engine. Okay? All right. You got it out of me.

Don't be blowing sweats across this table. There's coronavirus infection coming around. Barely.

It's true. I was hoping for the best and I got the worst. I've done that five times. John has had five engines and he since has sent me to the website and I have an engine coming. Okay? You've had... Okay. Listen, now, Monday. Maybe even a company credit card if we can justify getting the mail in it once in a while. Monday at lunch, on the way home from lunch, probably was an hour lunch, Wyatt, yes. But we stopped by the DMV so you could turn in the title Monday. Okay, that's right. You turned in the title Monday. And it needs an engine today. Yeah, I know. I get it. You bought it Saturday. I got a heck of a deal. You bought it Saturday, turned the title in to get plates Monday, and now it's on blocks and an engine's coming. Okay, it's not on blocks. I drove it to the office here. They barely got here. But it is. It's in the parking lot. You win some, you lose some. That's right.

So anyway, I've got other used vehicles that are amazing. This one is going to be amazing. And so anyway, it's going to teach my kids how to drive a stick and it's kind of fun. It's the most expensive lesson. You could rent it at car. You could rent it at Toyota Corolla. Yes. A stick shift. But then you're not self-sufficient. In this day and age of a coronavirus, you never know. There might not be a rental available. Have you checked? So you need to be self-sufficient. For $300. I've heard you need toilet paper, hand sanitizer, and wheels, and gas. Okay. For $300 a month, you could have rented that thing. And I'll bet in 60 days, he's a pro driving a stick. I'll bet I could rent it for $150 now that the coronavirus. Nobody's traveling. That's right.

You're making my own point. You could have spent a lot less money than a truck and a new engine until yesterday. I was in your boat. I have a son basically the same age. I'd like to get a stick shift for him. I'm going to rent one. This is going to be the best truck I've ever had. And it's going to have a new engine. Anyway, let's talk about Colorado. What's new in Colorado? Let's get to the nitty gritty here. Colorado 2020. What's new? The dates are new. That's kind of exciting. They have a new five-year program on season dates. This year are a little bit later than last year. Approximately three days for deer. Let's just call it deer and elk. But let's just say a deer. That's the most exciting thing going on there. Next year, Bronson, even later. It's going to be awesome. And so that's kind of what everybody's talking about. A, do we use them this year?

Because next year, point creep's going to go crazy. So everybody's looking to go this year as well, which is going to cause point creep this year too. So anyway, we're dealing with all those questions right now. Third season this year, November 7th to the 13th. Fourth is November 18th to the 22nd. Anyway, and then for next year, third is November 13th to the 19th. And the fourth is November 24th to the 28th. So just bad for deer. There's deer chewing their cud right now that are not going to be alive in the near future. And, you know, a lot of it is date related. And I think that's one of the things we've talked about a lot on these podcasts is dates. Season dates kill animals. Early season dates for guys that scout, they create habits. And, you know, as such, you know, guys that are willing to scout have a great opportunity to kill deer. And then rut hunts kill deer.

Yeah, archery dates in certain states for elk that fluctuate. Some states have set dates like New Mexico, Nevada, Wyoming. You know, they have set archery dates. You know, other dates, Arizona, Utah, they fluctuate with the calendar. Sometimes the center of the elk rut moves a little bit, centers up on a certain season. Utah, you know, being probably the best example of that. It can be a matter of three, five days. Oh, yeah. Huge difference. It can. The switch flipping on elk, a little bit of the first cool snap of the year finally gets them going. And maybe that, you know, isn't until the 15th, 18th of September sometimes in some places. But it's a pretty big deal. But Colorado standardized their archery dates. That's one thing. As far as archery mule deer, it's probably not as good, frankly. It's about a week later started, right? That's right. Yep. They did.

They're starting September 2nd. They're going to the 30th. Like Adam's talking about, it's kind of nice to have standardized season dates. You know every year what you're going to be up against. But from a pattern mule deer standpoint, before they start rubbing velvet and all that, earlier, better. But from an elk standpoint in Colorado, it now goes the 2nd to the 30th. It's better from an archery elk standpoint. That's right. Yeah. You're going to be hunting rutting bulls. Hard rut. Anyway. For three weeks. And that is another thing. With this date change, the bad thing is deer dive, right? But the other side of it is there's going to be so many tags in the field no matter what, but the less hardcore mule deer hunters will be in hunting archery. You know what I mean? Because now with these late dates, everybody's shifting to, I need to take advantage of this one-time opportunity.

The deer are going to be vulnerable. They're not used to be hunting in force this time of year, whether it be this year, next year. And then, you know, so it's pulling. It's going to pull some of the hardcore hunters out of the archery muzzle. They just can't avoid hunting mule deer in the rut. It's too tempting. But for you folks that hunt with multiple weapons, hunt with a bow, hunt with a willing to hunt with an open-site muzzleloader with some of the restrictions Colorado has, way underutilized, in our opinion, those seasons. You get to go first, you know, per se. The muzzleloader is just a, what, a nine-day window right within the archery hunt. Kind of a unique system in place there where the, you know, the archery's a 28 or whatever day season. The muzzleloader is just a nine-day window. About a week into that, it starts or so.

Yeah, it interferes with, like, the early high country rifles have muzzle and archery going on. Yeah, you've got three different weapon types. Could be in the field hunting. Same buck at the same time. Guys with orange. Guys with camo. Guys flipping each other off. Who knows what's going on? Shooting over each other's heads, whatever. The other thing, you know, that we might point out, and this just kind of goes into theory. Let's call it application theory. And nobody knows the right answer necessarily because when the storms hit is when it really gets good. But second rifle in 2021 will end November 7th. Yeah. Well, everybody's going to be thinking about the 3rd and 4th. Yeah. What about the 2nd? It might be off the charts. This year it goes to the 1st of November. I mean, it's some years we've been there. I've killed deer November 2nd before. I've talked about this many times. 43.

It was, I don't know, 15 plus years ago. I want coordinates. Well. Onyx. He's been dead for 15, 16 years. As we jump into Colorado, we're super excited about deer. Everything revolves around deer, but let's talk about sheep. Sheep are awesome in Colorado. You're not going to kill an absolute monster necessarily. Plenty of non-resident opportunities. They have a preference slash weighted bonus point type system. Once you have three preference points, you're technically in the draw. And it's not by law that that happens. What is by law is guys with three points have preference over guys with two. And there's so many people with three and it maxes out at three that those are the people that have valid applications in the draw. And so up until three, you might as well put in points only. Either way, it's fine. You're making a point only application until you get to three. Yeah.

And one of the bigger things to keep in mind is since they went away from the paper applications, they are now charging. As of last year, they're charging the moose, sheep, and goat. I should say Rocky. Rocky Mountain Bighorn. Goat and moose. $100 point fee. It's not cheap. It's on a card. It's not up front in the fees like it used to be on a paper application. But you got to kind of calculate if it's really worth it for you. Some people, that's a deterrent for the three-year buy-in before you're in the draw. But having said that, they give a variety of different rifle units. Generally, the odds are pretty good. The wave of applicants a few years ago from when they went away from paper applications, they're coming a year from now. They're going to be, odds are going to get worse a year from now for the sheep, moose,

and goat applicants that didn't have to now front the fees and pay the paper check a couple years ago. But regardless of that, great state to apply in. They have some archery-only, handful of archery-only sheep units. It's, you know, one of the few states that has that for non-residents. I guess it's the only state. Utah's got some archery sheep, but they're resident-only. So great opportunities there. Good hunts for those species. Just a little expensive. You're going to buy the hunting license to play in Colorado. It's not a simple $9 application fee for sheep, moose, and goat. You're going to have to pay, except for the desert sheep, that is cheap since there's not a point system for them, and you have to either choose either or on the desert and Rockies. And that point fee comes out later, later when they charge the tag fee. So anyway, great opportunity, like Adam's talking about.

Your first choice, the only one that matters, and they're going to go to the next guy. And there are archery-only opportunities. A new one, S69. Kind of interesting. Got some good rams there. Physically easier type hunt as far as sheep hunt goes. And so one thing they did do is they left out in the paper rigs S9 rifles. And we went to print with the online rigs and paper rigs coming out with that omission. And then they updated their online rigs. And so we had to update our e-mag. Paper, the paper version of Epic Outdoors reflects that. And so S9 is not in there, but we did update the e-mag if you want to go check it out. So S9's a brutal, rugged, crazy hunt that's awesome. Got some decent potential up there. Quite a few sheep up on the Sangre de Cristos. And so anyway, very physical backpack, horseback type hunt. But anyway, the rifle hunts are in our e-mag.

And so you might go check those out. The archery hunts were always in there. No problem. We covered that in the paper mag as well. Okay. Well, you know, maybe we'll brush by. We talked about deer and we talked about the dates a little bit and some of the changes. So maybe let's briefly cover elk and antelope just from that standpoint. Because most people and most of the calls we're going to take are going to be regarding deer. And that's not entirely true. We get a lot of calls about Colorado elk. The problem is there's no place to draw. They're such a bottleneck for trophy. You know, we use that term, I guess, a little bit loosely when we talk about Colorado elk. Because there are a few trophy units, some of the northwest corners and a few others. But they just don't have enough units statewide to spread out all the applicants. And point creep is terrible. Major bottleneck.

So we cover what we feel are some of the better options. Some of them you're going to have to maybe concede to use an outfitter on to maybe maximize what you could kill there. Maybe like a unit 40 or like a unit 20 around Rocky Mountain National Park. Don't take as many points to draw as the northwest corner. But you might kill just as big a bull without waiting. I think you're going to wait, you know, 20 more years to draw something.

But, you know, muzzleloader, archery, two to three or four rifle seasons for elk. A lot of different opportunities to hunt elk in Colorado. I made a few new units this year. Archery, limited entry. You know, a handful or two units around the state. Probably worth mentioning a few of those. Yeah, they did like 44 and all that stuff right there just south of Eagle. And then also that southwest corner of the state, you know, has now got limited entry archery seasons. And they maintained the over-the-counter second and thirds on the rifle. So anyway, there is some concern on some populations and different things and dynamic that's going on there. And so kind of interesting where they give you, you know, limited entry draw archery and then over-the-counter second and third. Just, I don't know. Yeah. Hey, we heard it. The biologists are second to none. You know what I mean?

I mean, some of them. So I don't know. They probably know what they're doing. They definitely manage ginormous herds of animals. And so anyway, kind of crazy, though. But we'll see. We haven't seen the quotas yet on those or any of these, you know, elk and deer opportunities with these new season days. So it'll be interesting to see what the tag quotas come out as. With the preferences, Bronson's talking about, you know, having point creep a little bit, there are preference points in Colorado. Most of you know that or a lot of you guys out there that have been applying in the past know that and understand that. For those of you that don't, guys with a high number of preference points have preference in drawing tags compared to those that apply with less than they have. So there's no random drawing. They do have a hybrid draw.

So that only takes place in certain units, and those are listed in the regulations. And only if there's, if we haven't met our quota. Well, in every case, we've met our quota. We actually went and looked them up, Jason. We get calls on, hey, what hybrid unit would you recommend I apply for? You have to have a minimum of five points built up before you can even be eligible for a hybrid draw. Which essentially is they draw 80% of the tags in that unit for preference point holders and then give 20% randomly. The problem with that is when they do the 80% draw, the non-resident quota gets met there. And so any 20% random tags go to residents. We've looked it up and that happened in all the deer and elk units. So now with antelope, there is not a resident, non-resident quota involved on antelope.

So we did see some non-residents, and we know licensed app clients and others, that have drawn hybrid antelope tags because there's not a differentiated resident, non-resident set-aside quotas. But non-residents for deer and elk, just ignore the hybrid draw. There's people that bring it up every year that say that's a good plan, option to pull a tag, get lucky. It is for a resident. It is not for a non-resident. And the preference point draw, like Jason alluded, for deer and elk and antelope, it's unique. A lot of states have a percentage, a 20%, a 50%, a 75% of the tags go into the max point holders. For Colorado, deer, elk, and antelope, with the exception of the hybrid draw units, it's 100% of the tags. Most cases, all the tags are going right at the top, and they start whittling down point later at a time until they run out of tags.

There is no benefit for you to put in for 44 third season with two points. Thinking you have a hybrid chance. And there's no mathematical chance. So you've got to have that in mind when you start an application plan in Colorado. If you're starting, you've got to have a realistic goal of how you're going to use those points in the nearer future because it's something that's taken 20-plus years right now to get. Don't even ever think about it. Unless, I guess, they ever change their system, which you can't fully predict. But you've got to really keep that in mind. And we really do add a lot of units, second season, third season, fourth season, archery, muzzleloader, for deer when it comes to deer to just try to give you a lot of options. You've heard us say it over and over. Colorado, deer, it's been tough the last couple of years, few years.

It's tough to really know exactly the current status of every unit right now. A little bit of a crapshoot. A little bit of a guess. Still great genetics. Still good season dates. Just cannot say these are the best. These are the best. And these are the best. There's just a lot of good options over there right now. Well, that's 100% true. And there's so much strategy that's involved. And everybody's situation is different. What everybody wants is different. And your point levels are all different. And so there's so much strategy. And the good thing is, is you can tell when you can get drawn. You can see what happened in 2019. The downside is, is 2020, later season dates, 2021, incredible season dates for rifle anyway. And so that, that's where the strategy comes in. That's where the guessing comes in.

We can kind of get a gut feel because of the inflow of calls we get and the points that people are having. They're applying for certain units with more points than it takes. We can get a gut feel what those points, what those units are going to jump to. In many cases, and we deal with it all the time, guys want to make the absolute best choice with the points they have. I've got six points and they're wanting to apply for a point that took a very small percentage draw with six last year. And they had five last year. If they got in, it would be a miracle. And so we're trying to be realistic. Hey, do you really want to draw this year? Because if you do, apply for something with five or less. You can have a little point creep anyway. And people just cannot, they feel like they don't want to leave any points on the table, so to speak, and draw something that is too easy to draw.

And they didn't really have a great value with a particular tag. It's a natural human thing. You don't want to pay more for a truck than you have to. You don't want to pay more for anything than you absolutely have to. And so it's normal. But at the same time, it's a little bit tough to figure that out. There's a lot of strategy knowing what's going to do, what's going to happen, what's going to change. We did have a section within the Colorado Deer Write-Up. And so make sure you read that. There's some, we talk about strategy in this, but we also have a little section on what you can draw as your second choice tags. You could put down your first choice. If you don't draw your first choice, you'll gain a point. Even if you do draw your second or third choice, they'll look at everybody's first choice and then go to seconds and then go to thirds.

So anyway, there's some opportunities there for guys to draw a second choice tag. If you draw one, you're going to gain a point. Not such a bad gig. And you can still go hunt the state of Colorado. So anyway, again, it all kind of feeds into the strategy. Yeah, that's a good point on that. The list of units that you can draw as a second choice has gotten increasingly smaller and smaller over the years. Like Jason said, you don't have a chance to draw something as a second choice if everybody that put that unit as their first choice didn't get a tag. So it's not like other states like in Arizona or like in New Mexico where they look at two or three choices. They look at everybody's first choice and so if there's 100 tags in a unit and there's 90 applicants for that first choice, okay, there's 10 tags now that can go to a second choice and people can clean those up.

But maybe it's worth looking for, especially if you have minimal points or you just have time in your schedule and you want to be in Colorado somewhere this year. There is something about for everything. A little bit when we're addressing the issue of like point creep and trying to target a unit this year and getting the most out of your points. Look at the units in our tables. Look at the tag numbers. If you're dealing with a unit that has 30 total non-resident or 30 total tags and let's say five to seven non-resident tags, that's very volatile. When you're talking about only five or seven non-resident is going to draw, it doesn't take very many people shifting to that unit to really make it jump and edge you out versus a unit with three, four, 500 tags that took four points last year. It can still absorb some crossovers and not affect it that much.

So point creep really has a tendency to really flare up in a unit with low, low tag numbers because you just can't take very many crossovers before all of a sudden, boom, that thing shot up to six, eight points when it took four or five the year before. You know, late dates, we've talked about that. So look at the total tag numbers in the magazine. That also can give you a hint of, I guess, the volatility of a unit teetering on how bad can point creep really happen on that unit. There's two sides to drawing odds, just like what you're talking about. There's two sides to drawing odds. There's tag numbers and there's applicants. And when you're dealing with 15 total tag numbers, for example, on something that's kind of increasingly being more and more popular, I mean, it's going to jump three to four points.

Five points is not, you know, out of line in a point jump type year like this is going to be. And what's crazy about it is last year was terrible. Last year was absolutely terrible. But, you know, if you have points left, if you have an open schedule and you have points after 2021, you played your cards wrong. Yeah. Even though last year was terrible. Just saying. It's going to get tougher and tougher. I don't see Colorado giving up that many tags. I don't. They're wanting to clean out some deer with CWD. They think it's a proper management plan is to clean out an upper age class of deer and deal with CWD that way. Yeah. We're not holding our breath. I guess that, that tag numbers because of later dates this year, even later dates next year.

And then the three or four years after that, there's, they remain late that, that tag numbers are going to be slashed just so that they don't kill too many deer. I mean, I'd like to think that that's going to happen. I'm not, I'm not fully optimistic. It will. So who knows? Who knows? I don't want to be doom and gloom about Colorado's deer, but I, I just feel that it may not be as good in a few years. If, if the stars align and we get weather and snow and all that, that we haven't had, and then late season tags, it could be, it could, deer could take it on the chin over there pretty hard. Yeah. And you know, we don't always know everything. Like we, we've hunted a lot of units in Colorado. I don't know, 30 of them or something. I don't know. A lot of units. Having said that, there's a lot of units we haven't hunted that are producing some big deer.

Some of those units south of Denver and just, there's just a lot of country that has, that is known to produce good bucks. And we haven't taken advantage of it. She can only do so much in, you know, the last 25, 30 plus years of hunting. So. Speaking of, who's, who's got, who's got points we're going to try to burn this year in Colorado? John says none right here, right? Right, John? Zero. Okay. What do you mean? I zero. Adam. Oh, okay. Do you know somebody that's more secretive than John Peterson?

And I've got to name this unit question for him. But anyway, keep going. Do you? I'm not going to tell you. I don't, I don't know. I don't know how to respond to that question. Because you're tapping out? No, I'm not tapping out. I just don't. Okay. I've got plans that he is not saying. I am pointing you out right now. Is it morally wrong to lie about hunting?

What does that mean? I'm just saying, if you ask me what unit I'm going to go to. I want to play for. You don't have to lie. You just don't have to tell the full truth. Exactly. A lot of our members for $100 expect that we are 100% transparent and should lay out our application strategy. And in large part, we do. I'm not worried about the members. It's you guys. Oh. What are you worried about? Oh. John. That was below the belt. We have helped you strategize many times. I know. I'm just kidding. You walk away and under your breath, you're like, thank you. I've now made my plan that I'm not going to tell them about. Case in point. And you don't need to divulge the unit. This is not going anywhere good. You do not need to divulge the unit right now. But about a day or two before Utah was to end, we asked John, as a reminder, John, you got Utah stuff in? Being nice. Oh, crap.

What should I do? And we promptly talked to you about your points. And we threw out a couple units. And the funny part of it is, Wyatt vacillated back and forth for 60 days on the Utah. And he applied the last day. Wyatt's been stressing since Christmas. Yeah. The last day, as we heard on probably the last podcast, he wanted his app on the top of the pile in the computer, right? All that. Yeah. Well, John was the opposite of that. We threw out a couple units. Burn them. John, go hunting this year. He walked. We said, all right. Did you end up? Absolutely. Okay. John might be hunting elk in Utah this year. We will see. Point creep if that happens. But deer, that's right. You drew your tag last year, right? Yeah, he did. But what's interesting is how many times has he brought it up since he's praying we forget

about it, that he happened to kill a 30-inch buck and that we never bring it up again. Praying. John, am I wrong? You might not be wrong.

Love it. He's praying we forget about a 30-inch buck he's hunting here in Utah. It's got cheaters everywhere. John, am I wrong? It's got one. No comment. It's got more than one cheater. How many cheaters? One on each side, if I remember. Yeah, one on each side. Yeah. Wait, what? Freaking stud. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what happened. No, I'm one of those guys that, you know, I've got double-digit points. It's, you know, I've been either going back on turnback tags or second choice, a couple cheaper landowner tags over the last 10 years. What are you sniffling? No, I told myself. I might be getting the coronavirus. I don't know. I have a little sniffle. I told myself that I would never get this many points again, but I've been going probably, you know, I've been to Colorado probably seven or eight of the last 10. How many do you have? I think 10, 11 or 12. Oh, yeah.

Something like that. So I have options, but I'm one of those guys that depending on how well I sleep one night, the next morning I come and I'm thinking, I've got it. I'm going on second season, one of the best seconds in the state, and I'm going to go because I want to be there first. It's going until November 1st this year, the season date. I want to be there first. I'm going to crush bucks whenever he's- I have enough points you could draw that in 2021. Yes. And that enters into my mind. So the next night I go to sleep, I wake up and I'm like, all right, look at these third season hunts I'm going to get. As a second choice, right? No. Or first. No, first choice. I'm talking about burning. No shiz. I'm talking about burning them. All right? Okay. And then the next night I have a different sleep and I think, oh, November 18th to the 22nd. Wow. That's the fourth season.

Sounds pretty good. I'm all in on that. And then I look at the list of what I can really draw with that. So you're about like the 14 people that I've talked to since lunch today. Not sure what to do. Still up in the air. Yeah. That's right. I've got options. I have a lot of options and I am going to try to use them this year. I just probably going to lean towards more, after thinking about it more. Where? More of a third or fourth season option. Where? That would depend on if I just settle on third or fourth. I'm just asking what all the listeners are wondering in their own minds. Okay. So anyway. Well, you know. So back to the question, I guess. Curious question. It begs the question. Is it morally wrong to lie about hunting?

Sometimes, if someone's dumb enough to ask you a question, I'm talking like maybe in the field. That's what I was referring to. If you're in the field. Were you? What do you mean? You're not talking about in an office environment with your employers? Where'd you kill him? You're looking over the poor relationships. You're looking in the back of a pickup truck on the internet. Like, where'd you kill him? Right. Where'd you shoot him? Yeah. Right behind the shoulder. I think John's diverting the conversation.

Go ahead. Where were you going with it? I've got another diversion. What percentage of guys switch their unit every year? When? After they apply? No. Like, let's say from year to year. Like, it's just a guess. We won't know the answer. There's constant inputs and variables of their friends. I'm not really thinking of the units. So we're talking, you know, this unit. Yeah, you're not even. I'm not even really thinking about the units from last year. I mean, it's an option, but I'm looking at other stuff this year. You've had new, fresh inputs. Yeah, and just perspective changes and not necessarily dead deer with pictures because there's not very many of those all over the place from Colorado last year. Have you seen our mag? Looks pretty good. I mean, it's good. However. The highlight reel is impressive. The highlight reel is impressive, as always.

But the collective numbers of highlight reel bucks was definitely off. And so it's not like I'm targeting something because it just, yeah, it shined everything out. Everything was tough last year. It really was. I'm probably leaning more to a November schedule because my late October is going to be busy this year. I've got a feeling. Oh. What would you be doing? It's okay to lie. See what I mean? No, I'm talking. See what I mean? I'm talking. It's okay to lie. No. Here's another case of point of lying. I've got a good friend that's going to probably draw his desert sheep tag this year in Utah. And I kind of owe it to him. I agree. And then I got the general for Utah with my kids, which, you know, that's a big deal. That's October 17 to 25. I feel a little crowded on the second season and it is going to move later.

So if I figure if I go for a third or fourth and I don't get it next year, I've got a second season. Probably is on a front burner. Well, and if the coronavirus keeps going the way it is, we might be the only guys in the field. Well, if you're the strong, we're going to find out who's the strong. Wow. I mean, immune system. I'm talking. So it doesn't matter about brute strength or how rock hard you are. How much creatine you take, why, why? It just doesn't matter. So anyway, that's that. This is this. This is a lot of variables. All of these theories. All of this. All these variables play into hundreds of schedules and these guys call in and then they kind of get frustrated. We don't have a perfect answer for them. Devin. Devin rose his hand. You were looking at me. Sorry. But he when you said who wants to use their points. His hand. You said who has points. Oh, to use.

What are you going to do? So now he's rephrasing. He said who has points. No, I said pretty sure the question was who has points they plan on using. And he was like this. But now it's just so many liars in this room. I'm the only one that's 100% transparent. But you have six or eight somewhere in there. I have nine. Nine, yeah. So you're in this. You got options too. I'm right there with you. Third or fourth season. You also usually have some little bit of guiding obligations, which we all do, which, you know, we all, when I say we all, I mean the Epic Crew, we got a deer hunt. We're guiding first part of November, five days. So third season or later is probably something you're looking at too. That's another reason, Jason, the second season I'm not really looking at. It's interesting. It is kind of fun because I do look at archery hunts. I look at third season. I actually look at maps.

I like a lot of BLM. I've been wondering what you've been doing over there. Quite often. No, I haven't. You work your guns. BLM maps just from a what? I like to just go. You know, I don't like to worry about it. Where I'm at, property boundaries. Like, I want to just glass, see, go. Big chunks of public. That sways my... There's some people that do that, no matter if it's private or public. Glass, see, go. Glass, see, go. Okay, before we leave Colorado, you can apply for goat and moose as well. We covered it in the magazine. All the units that non-residents can apply for. Get on there. Check them out. There was a few changes. Goats, they took the G3 and G13, combined them. I was in G3. It was terrible. It sucked. You know, it was a buddy of mine. In fact, Roger Smithson, who wrote the article, Our Next 30 Years, he's probably referring to the fact that we learned from that goat hunt

and hopefully our next 30 years are better. But anyway, they did put G13 in with it. So there's a few changes that can be outlined in our Colorado issue. We also covered antelope. We're super excited about antelope this year. Somebody's going to burn their points. That's right. That'd be me. Okay? Moving right on. So I want to name this unit real quick. Is it a Colorado deal? John. Are we going to do all that and name that unit together at the end? I thought I successfully got us off that subject. Should we do that at the end? Well, this one unit, just interject. Yeah. Okay. The unit you know where there's a buck with one cheater on both sides is about 30 inches wide. Where is that unit? What's that unit?

Unit 44 in Colorado. Okay. All right. You're a liar. Okay. Next one. What are we talking about? It's hot. Idaho. Yeah. Probably just the quick and dirty on Idaho moose sheep and goat is they create two-year regulations for those. They approve them in two-year segments. And this is the second year of that. And so there's not any major changes. Once in a while, if they have to make an emergency closure for a sheep unit, if they've done it for goat units and things like that, they do that. But they haven't done that for 2020. We're the second year into that. You know, keep in mind last year they did away with the paper applications. You've got to actually apply online or through an office. Deadline's April 30th. You got April 1 to April 30 to apply. Biggest takeaway, no point system in Idaho. If you choose to apply, it's kind of expensive.

You know, $155, $60 by the time you buy a hunting license and online fees. And then you have to pay the $2,100 permit fee for moose sheep and goat up front. Charge you a convenience fee for doing all that. $41 non-resident application fee. All said and done. Ding, ding, ding, ding. You're probably up to $220 or more to apply non-refundable. So it's not cheap and you don't get a point for it. Some people love to have something when they spend money. They don't like to just spend money and have nothing to show of. But you do have, what we do tell people is for that money you did have pretty good odds comparatively to draw a tag compared to other states where you don't. That's right. You know, they make you choose deer, elk, and antelope. If you choose those, you can't do sheep or goat or moose. But you can do sheep or goat or moose.

And if you do one of those, you're done for the whole state. So anyway, great opportunity for drawing odds. Our members draw a large portion of the Idaho sheep tags every year. I'm talking six out of nine on good years. It's unbelievable. We get up to 10% of the total sheep quota. And that would be Californians and Rockies together. They're not saying you get 10% of the Calies and you get 10% of the Rockies. They're saying 10% total. Those can all be Rocky tags. And so anyway, and it's up to, we're not guaranteed. There's enough non-resident applicants. We meet our quota most years. So anyway, great opportunity. We cover it. It is. It's a great state considering those by far the most popular of those three species is the sheep. But, you know, it's hard to ignore.

Like Jason said, we talk to more people every year that probably draw that per tag issued or per, yeah, roughly 90 to 100 total tags. Nine of which can go to non-residents. We talk to a lot of non-residents that draw, you know, license app clients as well as our regular clients of Epic Outdoors that do their own apps. The moose odds are really, really good. You got 80 plus units to choose from. So when you spread out, you know, 500 plus bull moose tags, throw over 80 something units, the opportunities are endless. I mean, the table alone for the moose, all those units. Grinder. There's a lot of units there. There's a lot of units to consider. Some of them are not worth printing in the magazine. But we do. We do so that you'll stay away from those because there's a lot of zeros on the harvest.

And it gives you some basic odds, you know, where you can look at drawing odds, harvest success, the spread antler, things like that to be able to make good quality decisions. I drew up there in 1-2. Bronson and I went up there. We've talked about it before. Killed a 40, what, one or two-incher? Three or something. Three-incher. Four-incher was not a big bull. So when you look at these and you see 40-incher, it doesn't mean it's going to be a big bull. Who knows how it's going to be built, whatever. And so, but it does just give you, it just kind of indicates, it's an indicator of size without having to Boone and Crockett score every single moose killed. And so, anyway, lots of opportunities. Again, if you choose moose, you're not applying sheep. You're not applying goat. You're not applying for the quality deer elk and antelope. You can do deer units that are unlimited in quota.

And so it's a little bit of a caveat there where it does allow that. But generally speaking, if you do moose or goat or sheep, you're not doing anything else. That's right. I also like the age. My kids have went up there. A couple of my kids killed their first deer up there in Idaho.

Ten years old. Of course, we haven't covered deer and elk yet there in Idaho. But I'm kind of a fan of Idaho. Yeah. You know, I like it. Good state for kids. They give them a price break on the hunting license as well. But if you don't want to put them in for sheep or moose or goat because maybe they're young, they're just getting going hunting, pay attention to us later on in the month of May when that opens up for the deer, elk, and antelope draw. We'll cover that when the time comes. So goats, good odds as well. They draw about four non-resident tags. It looks like this year can go to non-residents. And, you know, they have about 200 total non-resident applicants up there for, you know, the number of different units. And so odds aren't terrible. Again, no point system. Quality goat hunts. They've got a few units that are killing bigger goats than others.

The most part, they're just good representative goats. Keep in mind, they are going to take your money up front. So the deadline's April 30th. Even though we cover this in the March issue of the magazine, it's our recommendation to wait towards mid-April or later just so they're not hanging on to your money quite as long because they do take, you know, two grand plus from you. So real quick, before we play the name that unit, because I think this is something we've been waiting for a little bit, is we do cover the Montana deer and elk draw in this March issue of the magazine. The biggest change to keep in mind is that forever, it feels like the deadline to apply for that's always been March 15th. That's been moved to April 1st this year, and there's no paper applications. The fact that there's no paper applications to process, they're still going to get the results out by mid-April.

So move the deadline back about 15, 16 days and get them out the same time as they always have. The biggest thing to keep in mind on deer and elk, and we don't want to beat it over too much, is you can't just cherry pick and put in for the best limited entry deer and the best limited entry elk units and get points for them. You have to first, at the same time, simultaneously apply for a general season deer or elk combination or deer elk combination tag in conjunction with picking your limited entry special deer and elk units. And if you are successful in the general season combination drawing, then you'll be considered for the special deer or elk tags if you apply for them. If you're not, you're going to get points only for them. But a couple years ago, Jason, they instituted the points only application period, much like Wyoming has starting in July through September.

If you're interested in building some points for down the road, especially like for elk, archery elk, hunting in the breaks, and you don't want to play the expensive game of drawing the general tag and turn it back for an 80% refund all the time and spending that money just to have a chance, you might just build some general season bonus points or preference points as well as points for the bonus point. Yeah, and it's getting tougher and tougher to draw that general. It's a great opportunity for guys that just want to go kill game. And it's getting tougher. And so, you know, any more, you know, where it's preference on the general, you know, guys with the most preference win, so to speak. And so it's taken a point generally. And so anyway, there'll be a time when it'll take a couple, two or three points. And so just be aware of that.

I think it's worth doing that point only application period is July 1 to September 30. You know, well worth doing. So anyway, make sure you do that. I think it's a good opportunity to go up there. There's some big bulls harvested in Montana. In large part, they're killed, you know, private or near private. It takes a little bit to figure it out. We've hunted up there a little bit. We were on private. But there is plenty of public land country, region three, you know, Bozeman, all that country, Dillon, Bozeman. There's a lot of good, you know, public land type archery elk hunting opportunities. And so anyway, they do have a couple of special units, especially for mule deer. They kill a few giants. And so if you're going to apply, you might as well be, you know, thrown in for those limited entry units as well. We cover those in the tables. But anyway, that's the basics for Montana.

Anything to add there, Bronson? No, that's pretty much a quick and dirty breakdown of the March magazine. You should have it. If you're not a member, obviously give us a call. 435-263-0777. Or you can join online at epicoutdoors.com. If you join, we'll usually get that magazine, that first magazine out to you within the next day or so, unless it's over a weekend and we're not here. So we can get that out to you quick. We usually priority mail it right out to you. Love to have you a member if you're not. And get the rest of the magazines as they come out monthly from here through June as well. So where's that leave us? Where are we at? Well, let's see. I don't know. What do the listeners want? Do we know? No. Okay. What do we want? Because I'm frankly wondering after the last couple of podcasts if they're wondering if

they think we're trying to leave the hunting consultant industry behind and try to just be stand-up comedians. We're not. I know. There's just a lot of interesting people that work here. Namely, Devin and Wyatt. Okay? Chris, we got to throw Chris. Chris, the other day the story. Does that have other podcasts online, Chris? The one that we did? Yeah. All right. So the last podcast we put up, the three bachelors have a story about that triple-decker home that they all live in, rent from. Can you imagine being a fly on the wall there? But don't talk to each other in. And frankly, somebody's going to take a bullet there by friendly fire at some point. These guys are best friends, but they don't know each other. Yeah. And it's our job to get them to know each other. That's right. And if you were a fly on the wall, you'd probably be dead by now because the heater's out. That's right.

Well, and you better take cover because they're running down ready to do some damage. They got a B&E in the bottom floor. It's a B&E. Breaking entering. Oh. Anyway. And they come around. It's head. They're both two guys ready to do damage to something, somebody. And, man, they, you know, scare each other. Anyway. Listen to that podcast. It was good. But anyway, to finish on this thought, we've named, we've got a little segment where it's called Name That Unit. I'll kick it off. Only because, you know, in the spirit of the toilet paper shortage that we all have, well, not all, but Utah. Come on. I've heard it's in southern Arizona, too. I've gotten calls from people down there that they're Costco people running out like crazy. But in the spirit of the toilet paper shortage, name that unit. One that you'll most likely use your tag as toilet paper at the end of the hunt.

Hey, I would hope it's an Arizona tag because it's sticky on one side and it would stick to your palm. Whoa. That is, okay. Let's pick one in Arizona. That's a good point. I don't want that stuck to my hand. No, but the tag's stuck. Oh, yeah. You can't get it off. I get your point. You leave a dry spot at the very corner so you can peel off and put on a new one. I'll just stick to juniper. Juniper? You've done that. Who hasn't? Juniper? Who hasn't? Me. Oh. I cut my sleeves off first. How about just using a cotton glove? Hey, let's get back on. Let's name that unit. Okay. Let's do it. Where? Sure. What's a tag that you're most likely, if you got, that's what's going to happen with the tag by the end of the hunt?

Jason, you might have one of those in your pocket this year. I don't know. Yeah, it's possible. I ate five out of six last year. What? I ate a lot of tags. I know. I ate a lot of tags. I could use those first, and hopefully I don't have to use any as bum fodder this year. Anybody want to venture out? Bum fodder. Anybody else want to venture out? I asked the question. So the asker usually doesn't answer his own question. So I just like some input. I mean, it's... 22 late elk.

Okay. Yeah, that's a good one. Possibly. Possibly. And I'm sure there's listeners out there that will crush us. Well, there was guys that had good hunts. That's right. There was actually a couple guys that had good hunts. But, but, trophy, from a trophy mindset, I would say you're going to eat your tag. Okay? Yeah. What else? A couple of the late archeries. Oh, yeah? Like which ones? There's only a few of them.

You're not supposed to hunt elk in November with a bow. You're not. I was always taught you hunt deer in November and elk in September. That's right. But... But anyway, that seems to be an opportunity. And we're going to see. We're going to see how that turns out. Are we? Somebody is. Yep. There's a few members that have drawn.

Okey-dokey. It's okay to lie. It's okay to lie. Okay. Where else we at? Somebody else. Huh? Take it. How about an elk tag that they have? They have leftover tags for the Arizona Strip for elk. Oh, that was the perfect. Those 700 or whatever kaybabs that are left over? Or 650? How about those guys? How about those guys? That isn't worse. There's a couple of bulls hitting waters that guys are hunting for deer. That was two to three years ago. Okay. Okay. But... And they're selling tags, Bronson. I said, aren't those nearly... And now don't quote me some Arizona residents, because I would never poach an elk. But aren't some of those seasons nearly year-round on that tag? Oh, yeah. Oh. Because we've been... Last year, we saw elk on the kaybab. Remember? Yeah. Hunting turkeys in the spring. Okay. We... And I think it was... Tracks. I saw tracks. You saw live flesh of an elk.

And it's incredible. And I ran to a husband and wife in a Jeep, bust and drifts, and they were hunting elk. And I'm like, what? Wow. And I checked it, remember? And it was open. It was open. And Ty's like... You mind? You mean we could have shot that? I'm like, yeah, it was a shed bull. It was a shed raghorn. You could tell. Dink. I'm like, Ty, what? It's a cow. It's basically a cow. Come on. It had nubs like that. It's a shed bull. But that would provide meat for Devin's new family. Okay. Well, and it's already down... Well, you couldn't... You could already package it and put it in a cave, salt dry it or whatever the... The Oregon Trail game was. Have that down in Arizona in a cave somewhere, waited, ready for when he got there. Coulda, shoulda, woulda. Coulda. That's right. Okay. But that is the winner. You could not get a better...

Is it even called a limited opportunity or is it called worse than that? I don't know. It's called non-permit tag. Okay. It's like, we don't want to give you one of these and call it a real permit. So we're calling it a non-permit, but take one and pay it, please. First serve. Here you go. Not a viable opportunity. Anyway. Let's... I've got one for you in New Mexico, deer. Oh. You've been on this hunt. Me? Yeah. What? Yeah. Yeah. You took your kid on it.

23 deer youth.

He did... The only bright thing... Two things. I think they give a couple thousand tags on other seasons there. Because it's after the regular hunts, right? Yeah. The regular... We'll call them adult or anybody tags. So they give you... It was over Thanksgiving. We put our kids in there. You had a kid that was probably 10 or 11. Colton had already drawn a different one. It's a four-antler deer limitation. You guys saw... And we saw a one by two. Spike by two. I think... And I was like thinking in the back of my mind, does it have to have... On both sides? Yeah. Fork on both sides? Yeah. Because if it does, we're tapping out. The only... My boy was nine on that one. And we saw a coyote the first day and he smoked it. And that made his trip. But a couple days later, we saw... A two by two? The most basic of Forkies that you can see. And he crushed the sucker.

Because he's been shooting squirrels and jackrabbits. And my kid was jealous. Jackrabbits. Yes. That's a winner. But I've got one. This is for a couple other gentlemen in the room.

Chris, maybe I'm still in your thunder. You want to ask this question? Let me tell you the question.

This is another Arizona or New Mexico deer question. What unit can you go and expect to hunt mule deer that resemble coos deer because of size? Oh, no. Come on. What, John? Come on. John perked up. What are we talking about, John? John? Oh, my God. John, do you want to venture a guess? Yeah. Where? 36. No. 38? 38. That's why I got it wrong. It's been like 15 years. 38. Yeah. Yeah. 38. I killed a mule deer and it looked like a coos deer. It was so small. You did kill it on that? Yeah. Where's the picture? Dude. Use that on the social media posts. I don't know if we got a picture of it. Hey, I'll get you a picture of... That was the craziest thing. It was the last... On the last day. On the last day. And I told Chris, if it's brown, it's down. I mean, it's the last day. And it sucked every bit of it. We hunted our guts out. And we were walking out.

I looked over a ledge and there was a deer sitting right below me on the ledge I was going to climb down. Like close? Like that close? It wasn't even 10 yards? 20 yards away. Yeah. And I didn't have to aim. I just pulled up. Boom. And you brought home jerky. Brought it home. Smoked meat. Or whatever. It was so small. Salted meat. Well, name this unit.

A unit where quality has moderated quite a bit.

Wow. How much time do we have? I think there's a list all day long. Is there a wrong answer? Yeah. I don't know. There's a unit Chris killed a 203-inch rein that's moderated a little. Yeah, it's moderated a lot. 35, I would say, is moderated, I think. Yeah. It's always got the potential because it's such great genetics. But, man, they've crushed it with tags. Yeah, they have. 18. Yeah. 11 to 11. Wyatt's fave. 22. Add 22 to the list of that. I mean. It feels like I got lucky and killed the last buck standing there. It's rough right now. It feels like, yeah. Huh? A lot of just. If I'd go back, you know, heart me. Think about it. It was a pretty fun hunt. That was a good time. Huh? It was a pretty fun hunt because I shot a 206. Well, Bronson, it was more than that. We had a good time. We did. We did have a good time. We helped others kill. You helped a lady. Huh? Think about that.

I helped a lady. That was pretty impressive, really. Was it second to last morning? No. It was the last morning. Remember? Yeah, I'm like, I call you on the phone. I'm like, hey, what are you doing? You're like, I've gotten a deer. I'm like, come on. He killed one. No. No, I didn't. So you drove? Tell us the story. Well, yeah. I was up there glassing. And I was up on this knob, got out of the truck. It was glassing. You know, but you couldn't see. And as it gets in light, I could see a truck was probably 300 yards down ahead of me, but I would bend in there in the dark. And I didn't know if anybody was in it. And all of a sudden, I see a buck between me and that cut up through, through the saddle, right across the road, out into this big burn. And it's just a buck. You know, it's a nice four-point or whatever. And then I see the light come on in the truck.

And it wasn't that dark, but I could still tell, oh, somebody's in there. And they're getting out. And it was, obviously, they saw the buck. Pow, pow. They kill it. So I'm like, okay. And I see this lady walk over there to the buck. And then she walks back to her truck. And I could see her out on her phone, walking back over. And I'm like, she's alone. She's all by herself. And she's trying to call somebody for help. I shot a deer. And I need some help. And anyway, I glassed for probably 10 minutes. And I looked down. She's still talking. I'm like, I better go down there sooner. So I drove down there. And she's like, yeah, I don't have a knife. And she's by herself. And I'm like, oh, really? Okay. So I haven't gutted a deer. I don't know how long it's been since I've gutted a deer. She wants a gutted, not the gutless method. Well, and that's going to take you a while, right? Yeah.

I'm going to be there. I don't have the gloves. I don't have the crank check gloves that go clear up to my armpits. What? And there was no game bags. Usually, if you quarter it, you got game bags. You can't just throw quarters in the back of your truck with dirt and everything. Right. So I gutted it. And I was elbow deep. By the time it was over, it had been 15 years. You're reaching up for the diaphragm, doing everything. I did it all. She's wanting the heart, the liver. Huh? I don't remember that. But we drug it back to the truck, got it in the truck. Was it in a truck or was it an SUV? A little truck. A little truck with so much gear in the back that you could barely fit the deer in. Because it was a big bodied deer. It was a nice deer. It was a Colorado buck. And we better got it in there. It was at legs. We're shooting straight in the air. Where was she from?

Yeah, she was from that area. But she was back east working. And basically flew out and borrowed a family's truck to go out hunting. Because, you know. It didn't have a knife. Yeah, it didn't have a knife friend, whatever. Anyway, so. And luckily for you, we've got epic knives. In epic proportions. I had one in every seat console on the truck. So, yeah. Every crevice in the truck has a knife. I think I probably left her the knife. But anyway. How did we get talking about that? But anyway. That was 22 last year. Or two years ago, I guess. That was the experience we had there. That was my. That was the last day of the hunt. And then we watched a guy, I think, that night crush another buck. You know. We had seen. I'd seen earlier. Super. Turned out to be a good friend. Yeah. Brought that guy that shot one in front of you in 22. It was like a good buck.

And you're like, Jason, I think this is a good deer. Then I drive up. He gets crushed. And he's showing me the video clip. And I'm like, that thing's got 19-inch G2s. That thing's really boxy. Those eye guards look four inches tall. Man, that looks like 20 inches of mast. Wow. That's a 12-inch G4. Dude, that's an 11-inch G3. The beams look hit. That's a long-beamed deer. Goes past the end of his nose. It was a solid 180 buck. Brought it. It feels like 195-incher to me. No, it was not. But it was a really nice buck. I called you over here for a reason. Did you think I was calling you over here for a dink? And I'm thinking, no, I would have been shooting. It was the last night. And I said, all right, Cotter, if you get over here, maybe I'll shoot this deer. By the time you got there, probably five minutes, that thing was toast. Pumpkin and the sage crushed you. He crushed the thing.

It was toast. So that's a unit. That's happened a couple times. But where would you guys say? You guys have been there, done that. 35 would probably have to happen. You got shots ringing out everywhere. Oh, this rips off your own scab. How about, name this unit. A unit where you figure you would see the most pumpkins.

Well, honey. 18. 18. That is a pumpkin infested deer. Man. I remember every, I think almost every deer that we got on, there was somebody else that we saw on the deer. Didn't you have a near-death experience with an elk running by you? I was going to say unit you were most likely to get shot at. And that's the same unit. That's the same unit. Also 18. Tell us that. Didn't you have a bull run by you? Raghorn ran. Chris and I were, I mean, we were hearing shots already. And then this stupid elk comes right next to us. And they're still shooting at it. Couldn't hit it. I don't know how far away they were, but we hit the deck and we were literally laying on the ground. You literally were laying down. Watching the elk come by us. And he's like, I don't know where to go. I bet at one point it was probably 50 yards from us. Yeah. And people were shooting at it. And people were shooting at it.

Just Red Dawn style the whole time. Oh, yeah. And see? His mind is on one thing. Red Dawn. Well, he's been checking KSL updates for the coronavirus during the podcast. We're like, all right. Better let him go prepare. Get some matches and white gas. Do you got anything to add, Devin? I'm good, man. I just hope none of us get sick.

It is on your mind. Isn't it? You guys have been talking about it all day. I'm in my office. I hear you guys talking about quarantine something. Burden your clothes or something. I don't know. That was something else. We didn't talk about that. Wait a minute. John has burnt clothes. Yes. That's for another podcast. That's for a tips and tactics podcast about lightening your load. Yeah. Jeez. You know one thing I was thinking about these monsters today?

Well, and we've talked about sugar pops and kind of more of a natural high that sugar pops give you. Meaning. Non-diet. Pop with sugar in it, right? A regular, fully leaded pop. But the monsters feel like a synthetic high. Gives you lots of energy. You're crazy. You never sleep. You're just crazy, right? But it didn't ever give you real value as food. You know what I mean? And that's the way I feel about some of these. Sometimes I'm like, it feels synthetic to me. You know, does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Versus Pepsi that's got sugar and normal. Water. Yeah. Feels like a hard food, really. Yeah. So anyway, I don't know. It just kind of crossed my mind. Not so. So was it, did you have an epiphany? Are you turning over a new leaf? Is this the last monster we've ever seen you drink? Is that what you're saying? I don't know. I don't feel.

They have very similar vitamins and things that prenatal vitamins do. And it's kind of like one of those things that you're like, okay, this is a false advertisement. It's a trick. It's a trick. You know what I mean? Yeah. Tips and tricks. Anyway. No, just synthetics. I was just thinking about, well, really. Jana went to the store, loaded up the office with the important things. Treats and snacks and all that. And it was concerning that she bought more monster than anything else. That was just a concern to me. I'd say great employee. Are you going to, yeah, are you going to chastise her for that tonight when you get home? I don't know. Tell me. No. I would never chastise her. Just making sure. Because we're going to vote you on that. We should give her a call. No. I don't know if that's a good idea. Go start calling.

We better wrap it up. Move the white monster. You're on a synthetic night right now, remember? I'd love to give her a little grief. No? No, no, no. A special place in heaven for that one. That's right.

Head for the 14 trucks that she's got in her driveway.

Anyway, well, I can't think of anything else either. Appreciate you listening. Hopefully you've learned something today about the March issue of the magazine, about what we do here at Epic Outdoors. And until next time.