EP 157: Hunting in Nevada with Deputy Director Jack Robb.

We apply for everything, we gain points, you have a squared point system. There's a lot of good reasons to apply. We put out more desert bighorn sheep tags for non-residents than all other states combined. Anything to do with western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson here in southern Utah with the Epic Outdoors podcast. Kind of feels like Washington out there today, Bronson. Kind of rainy, but it's sure getting green out there. It's amazing. It is. It's unbelievable. Anyway, we've got a great guest coming on before we bring him on. We'd like to thank Under Armour for sponsoring this podcast. We appreciate them, their support for us here at Epic Outdoors and all we've got going here, which is a lot. It's busy, even in these COVID times. Yeah, applying people left and right. And one of those that's on the front burner right now, of course, is Nevada. And that tees up our guest today. Jack Rod. You on, Jack? How are you guys today? Doing good. Jack's the deputy director. That sounds better than second in charge, right, Jack?

Just tell us you're in charge. I have a lot of bosses, I'll tell you that. Well, we've known Jack for several years. We've had them on before. We've had them on before. But being that Nevada is on the front burner right now, we thought it would be good to visit with Jack about kind of the state of the state for Nevada and just talk about some of the hunting issues involved there and things like that. So maybe just – how do you want to – we've had them on before, but maybe just have a brief intro, Jack, of you and where you come from in case somebody didn't listen to the first one. Nobody misses the fact that you're from Tonopah country, I don't think. No. I was going to say, you're trying to walk me into the Tonopah country again.

Well, you've got to go back to the roots, wherever that is. Hey, I said it last time I was on, and I'm still proud to say I'm from Tonopah. I'm proud of Nevada, and I know that brings up a chuckle with you guys, but I truly am. It made me what I am, and there are a lot of good people down that country, and proud to say I'm from Tonopah. Moved to Reno when I was in high school, and then had multiple careers along the way, and what really got me into wildlife was a sheep tag in 95, and that turned into going on Nevada Bighorns Unlimited, but started doing projects with them and was on Nevada Bighorns Unlimited board, and that turned into sheep committees with the Wildlife Commission, and then that turned into sitting on the Wildlife Commission a couple times. Was on under a governor, off under a governor, back on under another governor, and second time I was on the commission,

I owned my own business because the economy crashed in Reno, and then the economy was coming back, and it was time to go off the commission. I'd served my second term and sold a business, went off the commission at the same time, in summer of 2014, and come November 2014, Director Tony Wosley of Nevada Department of Wildlife offered me this job, and I haven't regretted it. It's been a lot of fun. It's been very rewarding. It's an eye-opening experience to see the passion of all the employees of the Department of Wildlife, whether they're non-game, fisheries, conservation education, the game management, everybody. It's just a great place to work, and I couldn't be happier with my career path. I really couldn't. I'm glad where I'm at, and I know we're making a difference. I truly believe that, and we have great people.

And I'm sure, as Deputy Director, there's no stress, right, where you're at? No stress. No stress, no. Just a normal 8 to 5 or with an hour lunch? Yeah, everybody calls to give me their good news. You know, nobody ever calls us the bad news. It's just all the good news. No legal battles with lions, trapping, black bears, anything like that, right? We, that's a major part of my job. I know. The legal battles, and at one time, I think we had seven different court actions or lawsuits going, and it keeps us busy, but in the end, it makes an agency dot their I's and cross their T's. Yeah, it's probably good. It does make you a stronger agency. I truly believe that. When you have people that are critics on both sides of every issue we deal with, you do make sure that you do things extremely well, and you dot your I's, cross your T's, and know you have defendable positions either way.

So that's our job. Well, it's kind of like Bronson and I. Everybody just assumes we get paid to wet a line and hunt and fish, and there's a lot more that goes on behind the scenes just like you guys. It's a lot more than just picking some fun season dates and adjusting tag numbers, you know, that goes on. Like I said, I've been around this stuff starting in 97, going to all the commission meetings and stuff, and it's truly amazing how much I've learned in the last five years just about wildlife and wildlife management. It's been an eye-opener. Some good, some bad. I used to have a lot more fun going out to hunt and not have to worry about some things. Now I get out there, it's hard to turn off work when you're in the field looking at different things occurring or what's going on around you. There's different eyes you look through.

You teed up something, a question I had too, with, you know, we're coming upon, this is a new, I guess a new month or so that we've been dealing with nationwide. With your commission meetings and proposals and recommendations and things like that, maybe just fill us in or those that are interested in on that process, where it's in. Obviously the application period is open until May 4th, but you've got, you know, these commission meetings, I guess through YouTube and things like that, since you don't have public meetings going on right now. There have been some things that have had to be, I guess, dropped off of the commission agenda, if you will, because, you know, they weren't able to go through the full public process initially, right? Maybe just tease us up a little bit on some of that stuff that's on the front burner. And you brought up the application period open until May 4th.

The same exact day that we opened our application period in Nevada is the day we started working from home. So 100% of our application period we will have accomplished with no staff in the office. It's been a change. It's made our agency, it's going to be, when we come out of this thing, we're going to be a better agency. Times like this do make you stronger. You're forced to learn things that you wouldn't have learned otherwise. The number of meetings we have on Microsoft Teams and on Zoom, it was a technology that Tony and I really avoided, Director Wasley. Now it's a tool that keeps us afloat. It really is. Wildlife commission meetings, we've taken those agendas down to bare bones. We try to include a lot of informational items in those commission meetings to let sportsmen and commission know the things that are going on with wildlife.

But with some of the governor's directives, we're just taking care of the essential business to go forward. There's been some petitions brought forward. There's some regulation processes that we've ceased doing until we can have a public venue that we can vet it a little more extensively. So we've held off on regulation changes and petitions and different things and just stuck to our core business of setting seasons. We just had a Zoom commission meeting April 10th to kind of kick the tire, see how it goes before the big game season setting, which is crucial to our business. Listen, we're going to do everything we can to keep our meetings on schedule, to keep our results coming out at the time that our customers expect and want them.

We truly believe, our commission chairman said it, this application period is probably the most anticipated application period for a lot of people because they're stuck at home. And this hunting season is going to be special because we'll be able to be out of our house again and recreating in a manner we're accustomed to. And it'll take us back to good times and good memories. Well, I think it's important to note, too, you guys, you know, while you're working from home, it seems, I mean, you're painting the picture of bare bones meetings, bare bones, you know, stuff that you're dealing with. And what's very important, having said that, you guys, I just received an email from your agency saying, hey, we're here to help you. I can't remember the hours, but it seems like it's 7 to 7. I can't, you can correct me. I was just going from memory.

But there was, you know, an email just saying, you know, call us if you need help. We're here to help you. We're here to help you apply. And I think that sets you apart from other state agencies. Not that we don't have some good ones. We work with Bronson. We work with Arizona, New Mexico, Utah. There's a few great ones that are really helpful. But Endow is top of the list when it comes to that, realizing that their customer is the hunter. And you want to help them, not just, hey, good luck to you. And, you know, if you're lucky, you'll figure out how to do it and get through a few of these, you know, whether it be login issues or whatever. And it just seemed like that email was very customer friendly. Maybe dive into that a little bit on your theory.

And then as that moves into maybe also, you know, when is this permit meeting and how can, you know, it's available for the public to view and how can they view it? Yes. Yes. And when we went live with CalcMai a few years ago, we realized that the customer was going to need a little extra handholding. We've been with the assistant consultants for 20 years. And when you get people letting grains, there's a learning curve. And we made a conscious decision that we were going to have people at our office from 7 to 7, 7 days a week. If the phones were still ringing at 7, we'd stay till 9. If the phones still rang at 9, we'd stay till 11. Well, and you personally stayed till 11 or midnight answering the phone, if I remember right. Multiple times. That's towards the end of the application period, the last four or five days, we're there till 11, 11.30 every night, making sure people get in.

And that's key to our business. Customer satisfaction is what keeps you in business. You can't just meet expectations. We try to exceed expectations every time we can. We're open on Easter Sunday every year. And people go, I can't believe you're open on Easter Sunday. But that's when families historically get together. And it's been a big day in our application period forever. So we make sure that we have people available. And we don't mandate overtime for anybody. We are one end now. We have people from fisheries. We have people from game, conservation, education, fiscal services. People that know the state, know sportsmen, and can help people through the process. It's on a volunteer basis. We let people sign up for this over time. And we do want to meet customer expectations. So as long as the application period is open, we're 7-7 minimum. And a lot of days longer than that.

It's just meeting customers. Not expectations, but meeting customers' needs is what we're trying to do. So with the meeting and with what you've teed up there with getting people in the draw, obviously that's the main front burner thing on everybody's mind for Nevada right now. When is the permit setting meeting? And how can people view that, make it easier? We can obviously mention that a little bit later. It'll be the first Friday in May. And you can watch it on NDOW Commission on YouTube. There's a little bit of a delay. The commission actually, we did this for the first time, a Zoom meeting last time in April, April 10th. And the commission participates on Zoom. Department staff is called in on the Zoom meeting by the chairman of the commission. And then people can watch it on YouTube at NDOW Commission on YouTube. Like I said, just a slight delay.

And then when it comes time for public comment, people can email in their public comments. And then the commission takes a recess to allow people to email and then receive those comments and go through the comments. And then they come back into session and continue going. It took a special resolution out of the governor to allow a meeting, any meeting in the state of Nevada. There's a public participation component. You had to have a location. But with COVID-19, locations aren't the smartest ideas. So we have a special exemption to have meetings. And we're doing the best we can. And the last one worked out fairly well. We went over heritage auction tags. We had four auction tags that did not go because their events were canceled due to this pandemic.

So we had to figure out how to get rid of a California bighorn sheep tag, a desert bighorn sheep tag, an elk tag, and an antelope tag that did not sell at auction. So with the commission's guidance, Nevada Bighorn's Unlimited is working with onlinehuntingauctions.com. And May 9th is the conclusion of that auction. And people can get on huntingauctions.com, onlinehuntingauctions.com, and see what is out there. NBU does have additional opportunities other than those four tags. So it's a good fundraising endeavor for them. And it's going to make sure that the heritage money does come back to Nevada because we use that money for habitat projects, big game transplant, trap and transplant, disease surveillance, a whole host of things, guzzler projects. So it's an important revenue stream that we needed to make sure went forward. So that was accomplished in that last commission meeting.

The next commission meeting, we're going to keep it bare bones and just do the season setting. Or not season setting, but quota setting. Okay. Yeah. And we're showing May 1st and 2nd, 2020, you know, technically out of Reno, let's call it YouTube. And then big game status report and quota setting. And that's, we always, we always like that. You guys have got some, you know, preliminary numbers out there. Of course, they're not set in stone. And then I guess people can email in some comments and different things like that. There is some few changes. There's some, you know, some of that northeast country, I guess, proposal to increase some deer numbers and deer tags and a few things. And so anyway, it's always an exciting time. Of course, we're, we want big, big deer. So, yeah.

And it is noticed as the 1st and 2nd, but I believe with the abbreviated agenda, we will get through that on that Friday and it will be a one-day meeting. Oh, okay. Gotcha. Well, that's, so yeah, permit numbers will technically be set before the, before the end of the application period. You guys scooted that back a couple of weeks this year, May 4th. Was there any particular reason for that or just, just, you know, this was obviously well, well in advance of COVID-19 and everything else. But I don't think too many people have complained about a slightly later application period. But where'd that come from, Jack? Well, we historically opened mid-March and used to close mid-April. But that opening and closing was predicated on taking paper applications. So the first year we went with Calcumai, we went online only, no paper.

So the first year we wanted to keep some familiarity with our deadlines. So we kept the deadlines. Last year we added two weeks and that just gives customers more time. Life happens. We want to make sure people can get in. This year we extended it one more week. So we've put on additional three weeks the past couple of years. And a lot of it is the Western big game application dance that a lot of hunters do. They wait for one to open, to get results back, to understand what they're doing in the next one. And this gets us behind a few states' results. And I think it gives some non-residents additional opportunity to look for opportunities to hunt. And Nevada is a great place to come and we're trying to market that and get more people from out-of-state applying and see the great things we have to offer them in Nevada. How does that later application period affect your draw results?

It seems like you're still planning to come out with basically the same time frame. But I'd like to see the draw results on May 5th. I don't know why you guys can't do that. But anyway, and the rest of the world does too. This day and age, we're not very patient. But just tell us, I think you're trying to maintain the draw results while extending the application period. Is that correct? We are. And that's a goal of ours. And we have historically come out to Friday before Memorial Day weekend. And it's been that way for a long time since we started doing online results, not the mailbox results we used to look forward to. But it's the Friday before Memorial Day weekend. And we're going to adhere to that. If we can beat it by a couple days, we will. Yeah. Yeah. Who's going to complain about that? May 6th. He drives a hard bargain, Jack. I mean, just, I mean. It's like you said.

There's so many. We are. It is a balancing act on non-resident applicants. Let's just say, you know. I mean, we're dealing with New Mexico and Bronson, like Wyoming. Like, we're plugging and playing on elk up there and different things because you can still amend and all these different things. And so, you know, it is a balancing act. And we all, you know, your schedule takes shape. Every day takes a little bit more shape to it. And so, anyway. But have you given me a hard time? And even during these hard times, we're lucky with team and Zooms and good staff. We are keeping the wheels on the bus around here. And we're down about 8.5% total license sales, hunting and fishing license sales this year. And our big game applications, we're seeing daily down 15 to 20%. So our push is a little bit lighter than in the past. Some of that could be we've extended the length. That's what I think.

Yeah. Probably part of it. Yep. I would agree. I mean, it's natural to assume it might be down some. But people procrastinate. Hunters are good at it. Well, especially if you're waiting on it. Let's just be honest, Jack. You guys, you're not super cheap as far as applying. But with that, there's so many different tag opportunities. There's PIW. There's Silver States. There's all kinds of things that are going on within Nevada. That's why we like Nevada. We apply for everything. We gain points. You have a squared point system. There's a lot of good reasons to apply. But I think what's going on in this corona environment is people are just holding back a little bit. They know they've got until May 4th. You know what I mean? And so I think there's plenty of time. I don't – honestly, Adam, we don't have people dropping out.

No, maybe a slight change to points only for some people that definitively know my plans have changed. I can't go or I couldn't afford an outfit or if I drew the tag I wanted. But not a mass exodus from like I'm just tapping out of all applications. That's not what we've really seen in other states at all. Even in some of the states that require you to front the money up front, it wasn't a mass exodus. You know, Nevada is not one of those that requires you to pay the permit fees up front, just an application fee and a hunting license. Hunting license, application fees, and, of course, you know, the very inexpensive to apply our kids. We're cranking out kids like crazy. Everybody should be doing that. You're cranking out kids? Well, no. I'm done cranking out kids. Oh, okay. But I just – I'm cranking out kid apps like it's my job. Okay. You know what I mean? Making sure.

Didn't know if you were announcing something on the podcast. No. No. No. We did do that during our license simplification. We want to encourage people to bring their sons and daughters to Nevada. So 12 to 18 years old, it's a $15 combination hunt fish license. We want to encourage them to bring their kids, if they draw a tag, bring them when they're scouting and try out some of our stream fishing. And when they come back hunting, we've simplified the license to include trout stamps, duck stamps, state duck stamps, not federal duck stamps. And there's no stamps required. So when you come hunting, bring your shotgun. Let's get some bird hunting in here. Chukers. Chukers. Nevada's one of the best states for that. Even waterfowl, you don't look at it as a waterfowl state. But even that or Uplandame. And, I mean, it's unbelievable the resource that's in Nevada.

And that's not just pumping up Nevada because Jack's on the podcast. It's surprising for what maybe your expectations are because it is the driest state in the nation. And you just feel like, geez, it's just void of anything. No, that's the opposite. There's no general season tags for antelope, deer, elk. It's all draw. And you just think, oh, they don't have very much. Boy, it's not that way. I've been out scouting deer jet, come back to my truck, and I've got chuckers on the top of my hood of my truck. The hood, the cab, in the bed. I mean, at times there are so many gamers, it's unbelievable in your state. And it's a lot of fun. We are trying to encourage people to get the full experience when they come to Nevada to big game hunt.

The high mountain streams, they're not trophy trout, but they sure are good to eat. So we encourage people to get the most out of their license dollars when they come. And it's all included. One thing I wanted to maybe make reference regarding, we talked about the youth, but also for adults that maybe have never applied in Nevada before. If you're born after 1960, well, in 1960 or later, and it's your first time to apply, which it may be for your kids or even yourself, which is a, what, 60-year-old. So you have to register your hunter education card. That was quick math. Right? Well, we're in 2020, so it's 60. That was quick math. Well, I mean, it still thought it was pretty quick. We're on even numbers. You know, you get at three more years from now, and I would just say, yeah, 50 or 60s. But after 1960, you do need a hunter ed card. That's right. And it's easy to register.

It's easy to do. So if you go online to apply, don't let that catch you off guard on May 4th because you're going to have to make an account online, get a customer ID on number. Then you're going to have to take a photo or send proof of a hunting license or something with your hunter ed number from your own state. It is valid from your other state. You've got to send that in to the folks that could call me, and then they'll, you know, basically unlock your account, say you're good to go, and go apply. Or you could even, yeah, even take your online hunting course there, hunter ed course there, John. If you've never had one. That's right. That is correct. And we do have a pretty strict hunter education component, but we think it does pay off in the safety aspect. You said don't wait till May 4th. That would help us, but I can tell you we don't turn people away.

We just put more bodies on the phones to certify those hunter ed cards. This year, we did have to cancel our in-person hunter ed classes. If you're over 21, you can take online class, and that will suffice. Under 21, we do require the field component still of the hunter ed. But with everything going on this year, we canceled all of our classes, and we are allowing the youth, 11 and older, to take the online hunter ed course. And count it for this year. Yeah. Use that for this year, but we are going to circle back with those youths and ask them if they would like to participate in field day. They've already met the requirement. They're not bound to by law, but we're going to offer that. I think it's an important component. So my son's dating a gal, and she didn't have hunter ed. And I said, well, go on to Nevada's site and take it.

And so, anyway, I sent them the link to it, and I don't know, five or six hours later, she's got a hunter ed card. Yeah. She's here in our state, Utah. She's what, 16, 17? She's under. Yeah, 17, going to turn 18. But, anyway, she went on, did your course, spit out a card, and she went turkey hunting in Arizona. How about that? There you go. I appreciate that. And other states are in the same boat. You know, everybody shut down their hunter ed classes. And because of the ease of our hunter ed courses, we see a lot of people from other states coming to us to meet that hunter ed requirement because hunter ed cards are reciprocal between states. So if they can come here and get it, they can use it in their own state. And we're seeing a lot of that. It's awesome. We're not discouraging it. We're encouraging it, as you can tell.

And we're just trying to meet the need and hopefully turn them into a Nevada customer also. One thing I wanted to circle back real quick before we go on, you mentioned the onlinehuntingauctions.com. And we've got a lot of tags within the state of Utah, other places. There's other hunts, fully guided hunts, and different things. And your tags, your heritage tags, and different things like that we're going to be auctioned off at the MBU banquet dinner and other places. Just want to direct people to onlinehuntingauctions.com. There's a lot of tags, conservation tags, governor tags, whatever, that are being sold on onlinehuntingauctions.com. And so anyway, Bronson and I, we watch it daily. We refer people to it. There's Utah elk tags. There's Nevada tags. There's all kinds of tags. Antelope, Carter. Antelope. There was, you know, Jack, you guys have your heritage antelope tag on there.

The minimum bid was $4,000. I was like. He was tempted. Oh, I was. And then our buddy beat me to it. So anyway, at least I would have said I could bid on it, or I did bid on it. But in all seriousness, I clicked on, what do they call them, a bidder's premium, the buyer's premium, and there's nothing. You guys don't have a buyer's premium on there or anything. And so then they've got some, you know, there's a little bit of strategy in it. There's some, depending on where the auction's at, and the bidding. Increments. The increments change. And so anyway, I just wanted to circle back on that and reiterate that. I think when, Bronson, was it May 9th? That's when it ends, I believe. It was yesterday. It was 19 days from yesterday, whatever that is. Yeah, it is May 9th. And we're lucky. You talked about the bidder premium, buyer premium.

There is, with our partnership with Nevada Big Horn's Unlimited, they're covering all the auction costs. And there is no bidder premium. It will put all the money back in the state of Nevada. And like I said, that heritage account is vital for projects that have enhanced wildlife for years. And NBU believes in that. And luckily, they're a good partner. Wild Sheep Foundation, they also put in an offer to do it for free. We had multiple good offers with good partners. And we're just lucky that common goals with a lot of people. Well, it makes sense to use that with the NBU being, you know, they were the initial recipients, at least to the California Big Horn and the Desert Big Horn tags. And so it makes sense to help them facilitate that, be the ones where the checks are written to as a 501c3 group within the state of Nevada.

It's done so much for your partner with them, you know, partners with everybody, but special tie with them where they're based in Nevada as well. And that little website is becoming kind of a hub for guys to watch. Yeah. Nobody knew about it. Hardly, it feels like, until this year. That company has grown with COVID. Yeah, that's something. You know what I mean? That's right. That's one of the 2%. And we're finding tags are still cranking. The economy's still cranking. That's the one thing, Bronson, I think we wanted to talk with Jack a little bit. I mean, even though they're down, it's showing they're down technically on paper 8.5%. We're seeing nothing but positive. Tag prices are positive. The overall outlook is positive. People are planning to hunt. We're planning to hunt. And I was just wondering what your take was, Jack. It's kind of what Bronson brought up at the first.

The state of the state address, so to speak. How's the state of Nevada looking at 2020 fall hunting? Weather included. Weather, moisture, just general game trends and all that. And is it even conceivable or even possible that Nevada wouldn't allow hunting this fall? I mean, that's what people are thinking. That's what people are thinking. Well, they're afraid of it. But I can tell you that we're lucky in Nevada. We're 85% public land. And if you want to get away from people in Nevada, it's pretty easy to do. So at this point, I don't see a shutdown coming. Like I said, I'm planning on going. I can't give you a firm guarantee, but I can tell you that I am planning on hunting this fall, without a doubt. Well, the underlying tone within the state, there's some people that are, you know, there's some states that are scared of any little thing. I just feel like Nevada's fairly thick skinned.

You guys are going to look at it as hunting, social distancing, no matter what. But I just see it happening where, you know, hunting is going to occur in 2020 for Nevada. That's the way I look at it. I truly believe so. But like I said, I can't give, I'm 99% sure, can't give you that 100% guarantee. But I have a good feeling about it. And, you know, you brought up the weather. I know you guys say it's raining down there today. I think the southern end of the state, central southern end of Nevada this year has great moisture. Unbelievable, yeah. So you're looking at that White Pine, Lincoln, southern Knight County, even, you know, northern Knight County, talking to some of my friends down there. They have a good moisture year. Northwest, northeast Nevada, we don't have the moisture that we did the past couple years. But it's fair, not anything to brag about, but we're holding our own.

But some of the numbers that we've came up with, I think, are directly weather related. And Director Walsley and I spoke about this just this week. On mule deer, our postseason buck ratios, some of our success rates. In 2018, we had 54% success rate on mule deer.

2019, it went down to 45%. But you look back at our weather during the hunting season, it just, we were warm. We were dry and warm. And we all know that we'd like to be out after a storm, and it just didn't happen. We like to be out after a storm because it does increase opportunity, and that didn't come about. And some of our postseason deer surveys didn't show us the bucks that we think are on the landscape either. And some of that was, you guys probably were sheep hunting November 20th. We were dry right up until the day before sheep season. And then we just, it changed sheep hunting in this state so much that first week between fog, rain, snow, wind. It was just a tough beginning of the season. But that's the time that we're out flying for our postseason buck ratios too. So weather has an impact on wildlife management in a lot of ways.

And you guys look at it as antler growth when you have moisture this time of year and a good winter. And what you're looking at for next year. And wildlife biologists have to look at what the weather did last season that can have an influence on hunter harvest, hunter take, days in the field. All the things that go into setting these recommended quotas that the commission then reviews and make some final quotas. So weather plays a factor 12 months a year, just not this time of year when you're hoping to grow antler, that's for sure. Well, and it's tough when you guys are selling tags and having people apply for tags and whatnot. You're wanting them to be successful and you're wanting to provide something for what they're giving the state. And at the same time, not kill everything on the landscape. And so there's a fine balance. Last year was unbelievably different.

In a lot of cases, tough. You know, I think it saved deer in a lot of country. We had water during the seasons. They didn't, they weren't, the deer were, and sheep and anything that relied on water were spread out. Yeah, later on, especially. And then earlier in the deer seasons, they had, you know, on Southern Nevada, it had pine nuts everywhere. So it was, you know. They could feed in thick trees. Feed in just thick trees. Didn't have to come out in chainings. It had candy under every pinyon tree. Yeah. Yeah. And I talked about that 54% in 2018 and 45% in 2019. The other thing I want to bring up with those two numbers is a good portion of the unsuccessful people, they fill out their return card. They had the opportunity to harvest and chose not to. And that's because we do provide a quality product and people aren't just out there to, some people do go out there to fill their freezer.

But we have a component that goes out there to harvest an older, mature animal. And they choose not to harvest. So that doesn't mean that 54% was the only ones that had the, or 45%. Everybody tried to kill and that's all it could. Yeah, no. Yeah. We've touted heavily, Jason and I and all of us at Epic Outdoors, that Nevada, you know, does a great job at managing what you'd have to collectively label as a more limited resource from a big game standpoint, you know, in a deer, elk, antelope, than maybe some other states because partly because of the arid environment and terrain and all that. I mean, but when you get a Nevada tag, even though they're sometimes hard to get, when you get a good deer tag, an antelope tag, an elk tag. You've got something. You've got something. And of course, sheep are incredible too. So it's, the rewards are really high, the potential rewards.

And there's something for everybody. If you're more of an opportunist from a deer standpoint, there's a lot of early season tags with a lot of, a lot of tags. You can get tags if you want them in Nevada. Um, I would say most people, maybe our, obviously ourselves included would, I'm more willing to wait for the tags I want, um, from an elk and a deer standpoint. Uh, but when you got something, get something in Nevada, you usually, you can sink your teeth into it and have a great hunt. Yeah. And, you know, we, we have most of our areas over 30 bucks per hundred does and, and not many, I don't know of any other state that can say that. No. And our, our bowl ratio, we're, you know, 25 plus bowl to cow ratio on some of our marginal units. We're 35 to 45 bowls per, per hundred cows in a lot of our units. Uh, that's what we're talking about. A lot of people would call it.

A lot of states would call that a wasted resource. They would say you're not harvesting enough. You, you could generate more revenue. Uh, you know, I mean, let's be honest, you, you know that Jack, you've dealt with how many other states. I mean, you're, you're having huge interstate meetings with, I don't know, 35, 40 states. I mean, you know, you know, you know what they're managing and how their management practices are. Well, and one of the statistics on elk that I like to put out there is we shoot for a third of our elk that are harvested, at least a third, to have a 50-inch main bean. And what, when I was on the commission years ago, uh, the first time I was on the commission, uh, the department came and said they wanted to do a teeth study on elk to start aging elk. And at the same time, we were aging the elk that were harvested.

We were asking those hunters to turn in their main beam length. And what we found is you get a 50-inch main beam, you're looking at eight plus year old bull. So we're managing to have a third of the elk harvested with that 50-inch main beam. And you guys know as well as I do, a 45-inch main beam bull, a lot of people won't walk by it. And so... That's a pretty hefty goal, too, considering we're talking about the general hunting public, everybody. The opportunists, the trophy hunters, everybody. Well, but when you're managing for that and you have that component there, there is something for everybody. There's something for opportunists. They're tripping over bulls, in a sense. And the folks that want to, all right, I'm taking my 10 days or two weeks off work for my, uh, November 4 to 20 rifle elk hunt. I'm going to sink my tooth into this.

There's something for those guys to really try to overachieve or find the best of the best type thing. Yes. Yes. And, you know, you look at our antelope success at 73%. Our antelope opportunities are increasing. We're, we're have, we've had great success in trapping, transplant antelope, elk, bighorn sheep, all three species. Deserts, California, Rockies. It's, it's, it's really working out well for us and, and tremendous opportunities out there. And if, if we have a success story, it's our desert bighorn sheep program and our California Rocky bighorn sheep program. Uh, if I remember putting out tags. If I remember correctly, this is back in one of my former lives when I wore a different hat working for Utah DWR. We have a pretty productive antelope herd in Utah on the Parker mountain.

And, and I believe we gave antelope to Nevada one of those years, uh, in trade for, we negotiated for desert bighorn sheep. So what are you saying? Are you saying that Utah's responsible for all the success in Nevada? No, no, no, no. It's just on the theme of trapping, transplant, you know, and I don't remember. We take deserts. Yeah. You know. How does that work? That's right. And we have people, you know, mad about the 10%. Ratios. Residents. Mad about the 10% goes to non-residents. They're mad? That's pretty standard, really. I mean, it's. Yeah. There's some that give more than that, but there's a few that give under. And the ones that give two and a half to 5%, they probably have cause to have, you know, a lot of, you know, angry people. But 10% is pretty much, you know, almost a standard. Almost considered standard.

If they're mad about it, we should talk about the difference in the disparity of tag prices. I don't know. But I'm just saying residents shouldn't complain too much. We're, you know, we're definitely paying for, paying for what we're taking. And at the same time, 10% is fairly fair, wouldn't you? Yeah. Wouldn't you say? Well, the main point that I was trying to get to is the California Bighorn Sheep opportunities, our elk opportunities, a lot of our antelope opportunities are a direct relation to other states being very generous with their resources. And without those other states and other sportsmen supporting those other states, giving those resources away, we wouldn't have the opportunities we have here in Nevada. So we're lucky that westwide, everybody looks at opportunity to share an abundant resource to help somebody else. And it's not giving stuff away. It's just taking your turn.

And I don't know a state that hasn't been a benefit of sharing resources westwide. I agree. Well, if we just look at Utah's desert sheep, our best three or four units in the state right now are all source stock from Nevada. You know, they're all an extreme southern end of Utah. All of them have Nevada desert sheep of different herds, but they're our best in numbers and quality and everything right now. And we actually started another one this last year on the minerals. So there's another one that hasn't been hunted yet. But, I mean, been a huge benefactor of Nevada desert sheep over here in Utah. And we appreciate it. And we appreciate that you guys even have been wanting to entertain in the past a proposal that included antelope for desert sheep. Well, but it's awesome. My son drew a non-resident antelope tag there in Nevada. And we were calculating out the drawing odds.

His odds were terrible. But he beat the odds, killed a great buck. You know, I haven't drawn an antelope tag. But I had a guy tell me, a resident tell me just yesterday, he said, you could kill a booner in any unit in the state of Nevada for antelope. Like, there's, I don't know if it feels, does it feel like that to you, Jack? It's an uptrend for antelope statewide. It just feels good. Definitely so. And some of that is, a lot of that elk elk country is burnt up. And it's converted. That has an impact on our mildere because they need that tall brush and that cover. Winter range. Yeah, winter range feed. When it converts, antelope and elk can thrive. And it's just tough on mildere. So our antelope numbers are increasing. And you talked about quality. There is quality all over the state. So we're lucky in a lot of ways with our quality. I just love Al Carter.

I can, his gears are turning on how he can get an antelope tag in Nevada. That's what I'm picking up right now. Bronson's sold. Just between you and I, Jack, Bronson brings up antelope every day here in the office and just loves to tease me about him. But I do have a big antelope, a number of antelope tags this year. So anyway. That's why we're teasing him. He's already got two and we're trying to get him a trifecta, whatever you call four after that. Maybe we'll get a Nevada one. But I love Nevada. I've killed, you know, quite a few big deer in Nevada and spent a lot of time in Nevada. You know, often Adam and I consult on all the western states. And Nevada would be one of the last states that we would ever consider not applying for. Like we apply for Nevada. And it's not just because you're on. That's what we tell anybody that calls in.

The hunts, the opportunity, the experience is unmatched and unparalleled in my mind. And so anyway, as far as you said, bare bones meetings, there was a few things on the docket for possible discussion on change in different aspects. But overall, not a bad thing. We're not talking, you know, no change is still okay. The way you guys are managing, the way the processes were working were fine. They've worked for years and years. And so anyway, nothing but positive in my mind. Is there anything that you'd like the general public to know, Jack? We do have some changes that we were working on with the commission. One being when people put in as a party, if five people in the party and one person has 15 points and the rest of them don't, we average the points. And then what we're finding a lot is the person with the high number of points turns their tag in. And it's just point writing.

Does it all again the next year? Does it all again the next year with the same people or different people? Boosts them up. Mom or grandma never incurs a waiting period and gains a point. Yeah. It's point boost, point writing, whatever you want to call it. That was slated to be discussed and possibly changed to if you give back your points. If you give back that tag, that party used those points for the benefit of a tag. So the person that returned their tag would not get to keep all the earned points. They would get one point for the year that they turned in their tag. And the other point that we were trying to do. And that didn't go through. That's getting tabled. That's non-essential. It's tabled. It's tabled. And we have people saying, hey, could the commission pass that? And it could change the way that they're applying this year.

It can't get changed soon enough to be implemented this year. Once the commission goes through a process, we have to go through a legislative process to uphold the law and make it become law. And to work through all those, it's just not going to be in effect this year. The one point that I was really looking forward to was in Nevada, you can return your tag up to the day before the season, which life happens. And we want to make sure that people that put out a lot of bonus points have that opportunity to return that tag. The bad part is if a tag's returned two weeks prior to the season, the department does its best to get it reissued to an alternate. If it's under two weeks, that was our cutoff to give people time to prepare and get going. We're looking for a step for those tags under two weeks that are returned that don't get reissued.

And just 400 deer tags were returned in that time frame. And not reissued. Not reissued. Yeah, 227 antelope tags returned not reissued. This one's going to break your heart, too. 10 desert bighorn sheep tags. 10 of the 310 tags returned not reissued. So we're looking at ways to either do a first come, first serve on that, have people check a second box that says, I'll take that tag even if the season. Mid-season, yeah. Well, when your resident desert tag fees are $120, in their mind, they don't realize maybe some of the residents aren't calculating the drawing on. I'll get that again or whatever they're thinking. Yeah, those 10 tags, I'll bet 9 out of 10 of them were residents. Because it's $1,200. Non-resident that did that needed to be checked for a lot more than COVID. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. But life does happen. Family, I sit on the other side of the phone in a lot of these things.

People don't get it turned in. And that's the other thing we're looking at. We're looking at extenuating circumstances. Yeah. Being able to let a person... The rules are right now, you have to return the tag before the season. But we have people hurt in accidents. We have deaths in family. We have things that just, you know, heart attacks. And they're heartbreaking stories. Somebody's burnt 22 points on a coveted hunt, and they have a heart attack two days before. But they're in the hospital, so they can't get the tag returned. It just, there's a lot of things that we're trying to change to make it better for the customers that have a long-term investment in buying points. But I think for the masses, you know, cutting it off two weeks earlier, that's going to catch 95 or whatever percent of the people that plans have changed, appointments changed, life's changed, whatever.

And then the other minimal percent after that, you guys or the commission can have the authority to hear a, you know, petition, you know, doctor's note, all those things for those super extenuating circumstances. So that seems like it, that's probably an easy way to fix it. And then still allow, since you have a two-week head start now with turn back tags, to, now you get two weeks to reissue them before the seasons even start. And you'll have a lot more of those get claimed, so. And you've got a long enough season dates. I mean, you could reissue them the day of the season beginning and opening, except with the exception of, you know, a few of these, you know, orientation courses that are required by the land managing agencies or whatever in a couple of the units. But overall, people, those seasons are long enough to take a tag during the season.

You'll get somebody to take them if you just have enough time to call. And that's what we're looking at. That's why I've looked at the first come, first serve. Because if somebody returns a tag, if a hunt's starting on a Saturday and somebody returns a tag on a Friday afternoon. And it's Monday or Tuesday before you even think about it. Monday or Tuesday. It's going to take some process time on our end. And then we're looking at an option that you can pay an extra fee to have that overnighted to you. Or you can come into an NDOW office or a licensing agent and pick up that tag and get in the field. So we're trying to be creative with this. You know, 1,100 tags were returned in that two-week window. So that's just lost opportunities to our sportsmen. We're trying to fix some of those things. Yeah, Utah had to do a similar thing. They went to 30 days.

Their numbers, I don't have to have them off the top of my head, but they were staggeringly high over here. Because ours was similar to Nevada's over here. It was the day before. People pre-scout. There's pre-scout right up until the season beginning. And you don't blame them. They're playing by the rules. They're just using loopholes and left a lot of unused tags. And in some cases, yeah, just a wasted opportunity for a lot of tags people would have taken. I look at it as more deer saved. Well, yeah. I was on the commission when we put in the two-week scenario. And I fought to have it shorter than that. People would say, well, if you drew a sheep tag, you'd want to go scout it. I said, yeah, I'd want to go scout it. But you give me a sheep tag with five days left in the season, I'm probably going to take it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'd take it five days. Yeah, absolutely.

Well, all good information. Anything else, Jack, you want to tie up here, put a bow on before we appreciate your time? You know, obviously this will be posted here, but it's still time to apply. So we want to encourage everybody that's interested in applying to Nevada to do it. It's a great state, great resource. You've got great hunting opportunities over there. But anything you want to say that maybe haven't addressed or put a bow on top? Well, I want to tie back to the one thing that does, there's a couple things that set Nevada apart. We put out more desert bighorn sheep tags for non-residents than all other states combined. If you're looking to fulfill a swim, Nevada's a great opportunity to do that at a reasonable price. And then we're 85% public land. That's an opportunity that doesn't exist in any other western states.

So access to the resource is tremendous in Nevada, and those two things I think really set us apart. It's kind of crazy. I have a son over there in Wisconsin, and, oh, he was, you know, dealing with a guy or two on some turkey hunting and whatnot and talking to him about it. And the public land, we take it for granted out here, but the public land is nonexistent out there. He says, Dad, if you want to hunt out here, you either own property or you figure out how to have friends that own property. But there is no public land. It's just hard to fathom not being able to go out in the hills and camp. Here in Utah and Nevada both, we're so fortunate to have Arizona, Wyoming. There's so much, you know, Idaho. There's so much public land. I just think out here we take it for granted a little bit. Oh, that's how we grew up, and that's just the norm for us.

But not looking at property records, just looking at Google Earth and Topo Maps is how we scout. Right. Go where you want. Pretty well. Pretty well can do that. Well, I do appreciate the cooperation with you guys, and I think we have a good relationship that benefits both sides. And I really do appreciate that and talk about that on a regular basis when we give presentations around the country. We've given a couple this year, and we really encourage other states to look at the relationships with people that help people get in the field like your organization does. And it's a good resource that does prove benefits to state agencies without a doubt. It seemed like we called you one day talking about some different things as we were getting ready to publish the information on Nevada. You were headed back east to do a presentation with, I don't remember, 38 states or something, the directors.

Maybe just clarify that, and what are you guys meeting about? Are these states in pretty good communication with each other on how they're running their processes? We are in great communication with each other. There's a couple national campaigns that are started because you see the aging out of the hunters and anglers. And we're trying to bring that average age down in Nevada. We've truly done that. And with our success of our new license simplification, our new license vendor, our customer service approach, we've drove the average age down a couple years, which bucks the national trend. So we've been asked to come and talk about things we do. But there's the R3, I don't know if you guys are familiar with R3, recruitment, retention, reactivation hunters, people from all the country. We met in Monterey first week in January. We meet every year.

The first week in January, that meeting moves around. But there are three people, the conservation education people from all over the country come together, share ideas on marketing.

And a lot of times over here in those places, yeah, we tried that. It didn't work. Well, did you try it on this day? And what was your weather? We look at so many factors when we're putting out campaigns to gauge click-through rates, open rates, purchase rates, all kinds of things. So we share that kind of information with each other. And then there's RBFF, the Recreation Boating and Fishing Foundation. That's the one that we went back to Atlanta, Georgia, gave a presentation there to a couple hundred people and a lot of state directors. And all the marketing people from those states were present. And then right after we got done with that, we went to Omaha, Nebraska, and gave another presentation at the North American Wildlife Conference to a room full of people, too. Hundreds of people attend these events, and we're having success in Nevada, and people are recognizing that.

And our customer outreach, simplification, things we've done to encourage people to get in the field is recognized, and our numbers show it. And now we're being asked to share our success stories. So we've been on a bit of a speaking tour, and we've been a benefit of other people doing the same thing, so it's our turn to share. Nice. All right. Well, Jack, we sure appreciate your time today. We appreciate everything that you offer there in the state of Nevada. We appreciate the relationship as well on our side. It sure makes our job easy. We're just trying to get information out to folks, and you've been a huge tool in aiding that and helping us with it and keeping things square. So we appreciate it. As we wrap up, we just want to send people for more information on applying in Nevada, go to www.ndow.org. If you want to apply, you can go to www.ndowlicensing.com.

You do have some of those auction tags up for bid. That would be on online huntingauctions.com. So those three places are where you can get more information about hunting in Nevada. The application period ends on May 4, 2020. You can apply for points only until May 11, 2020, in case you missed that fourth application period. Get it in. Thanks a lot, Jack. Appreciate your time, and stay safe. Appreciate your time, and stay healthy and safe, and I hope everybody listening stays healthy and safe also. Yeah, that's right. We're looking forward to fall 2020, Jack. Definitely so. All right. Thank you. All right. Talk to you later. All right. Bye. Everybody, we just want to throw a little shout-out to MOA Rifles. What a great system they got going. They sell a lot of things other than rifles, but rifles, what they're known for, super accurate.

Anyway, we appreciate them and their support here at Epic Outdoors. They've got an all-new lightweight mountain rifle. It's the Ascent rifle. Bronson, I think you've got one. Yeah. Named Sheila. 6.5. Little Sheila. PRC. The little killer. Yeah. Yeah. 20-inch barrel, 6.5 PRC. It's under six pounds. It's like 514. I want to say 512, 514, but we were shooting it out to 1,200-plus yards. Pretty impressive. Give MOA Rifles a call at 541-526-1820. MOARifles.com. Super good people. Quite a lineup of rifles. They also have some other gear set up for the shooter, including bipods and different things. Well worth the call. 541-526-1820. Tell them we sent you. Also want to give a shout out to our advertisers at PhoneScope. Appreciate their partnership with us here at Epic Outdoors. One of these, you know, perfect tools for every hunter for digiscoping.

Capture all the moments in the field with your smartphone and your optics. Whatever that is. Whatever your phone model is or your optics type is. They've got something to fit your smartphone to be able to hook up to your optics and capture great footage or still pictures as you're scouting and planning for your hunts. So check them out. PhoneScope. P-H-O-N-E-S-K-O-P-E.com. Appreciate their support. Awesome tool for all of us here at Epic Outdoors. Okay, all those of you out there that run cameras, make sure you think about Stealth Cam. We're a dealer of Stealth Cam. We believe in their product. We run lots and lots of their cameras. So anyway, for more information about Stealth Cam products, go to StealthCam.com, gsmooutdoors.com. They've got a lot of different products out there. Great partner of ours here at Epic Outdoors. We believe in them heavy.

We've got a lot of cameras in stock if you're looking for one. They also came out with a Fusion Cellular Simplified available in AT&T as well as Verizon. We've got some Verizon cams headed our way at some point. New technology, kind of exciting. We're excited to give them a try. So anyway, for more information, go to StealthCam.com, gsmooutdoors.com, or give us a holler here at Epic Outdoors. As you probably heard by now, we here at Epic Outdoors have launched a new division here, Epic Optics. We're glad to be doing it. It's a natural for us here. We talk optics and gear with all of our hunters that we're preparing for hunts and talking planning and all that. So we're dealers for Swarovski, Zeiss, Leica, Vortex. Anything that you're looking for, upgrading or getting something new, binals, rifle scope, spotting scope, whatever it is, think of us. Give us a call. We've got great pricing.

Give us a call. Give us a call. 435-263-0777. Going to be aggressive on our pricing. And I look forward to visiting with you, helping you find the best optic for the need that you're looking for.

So that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing that you're hearing