EP 178: Archery Tips, Bow Setups, Arrows, with Bob Fromme

200 inch mule deer is there a secret combination for a 200 inch mule deer? Adjustments, draw a link on the bow, keeps in the right position, then the other one's just even pressure so I don't punch it. Anything to do with western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, coming at you from southern Utah, as well as Chris Peterson. How are you doing, Chris? We're doing great. Sounds like you're doing pretty good, Chris. We saw some pictures from the wedding. Of course, we've belabored that to death. Not his wedding. No. From Wyatt and Devin's, I think it was at Devin's wedding, somehow you caught the garter. It came right at me. Do you know what that means, Chris? Have you Googled that? Do you know what that means? So he shot it. It went up like a rubber band. Caught some wind and it just came right to me. Was it outside? Yeah. That means it's destiny. That's what everybody said. Is that the equivalent of a bride catching the bouquet? I honestly don't. I've heard of it. Does that mean who's next? The bouquet.

When you catch it over your head, it means things are coming your way. Whether it's good or bad, you're probably going to get hitched.

So, Chris, are you getting hitched? Where are we at on things? Probably not in the not-too-distant future. Oh, that's very big. Not? Very big. Is that a double negative? Not in the not-too-distant? I don't know what that meant. Well, what he's trying to do is keep everybody happy.

One infertent person. I want these guys to quit talking about it, and I want my girlfriend to be happy. Oh, geez. All right. All right. Let's talk about archery hunting, Bronson. We've got some archery hunts coming up. Oh, geez. Here we go. Here we go. It's mid-August. And, of course, I think the only state – well, California's been hunting for a month. They've been hunting things. They've been killing stuff. But Nevada, archery antelope and archery deer up and going. And Utah's right behind them starting this weekend, the 15th of August. And it's smash and grab time, I guess. It's shooting bows, taking off field points, putting on broadheads, fine-tuning, and all that stuff with kids. Us and our kids, Carter. Well – Fortunately, my bow's hitting right where it was, you know. I need to shoot more.

But, man, these kids, like I wake up this morning and Ashley, she's not even got an archery tag, right? She's 13. Her brother, dude. She does, technically. She can shoot her deer with a bow this weekend, but she's going to be more of a muzzle rifle hunter. And so she's more excited than they are. Hey, Dad, I can't wait for Saturday. You know, and it's just – I love it. I love it. All she's doing is holding the quiver. She just wants to – she wants to glass with Sean. Good. She's got her vinyls, her tripod, everything set out. So, anyway, it is that time of year. Of course, the elk and deer. We kind of mentioned deer, but it's elk and deer. And it's so hot in Utah, and it's been that way for three weeks. The spike in cows are going to be pounding the water. Yeah, but so are big bulls. It's August 15th, and they haven't moved to rut. I mean, get ready.

I'm telling you, there's going to be some big bulls in Utah this year. A, it's a great antler growth for elk in Utah. B, there has been no rain. And it's early. It's August 15th is the earliest start. They're not starting to roam and rut like they can the 20, 22nd or later. You've got a week or maybe 10 days. So, anybody that owns those fusions, they're getting their phones vibrating with instant uploads of photographs on water holes. And that's all legal in Utah. And you know people are getting fired up for Saturday. Well, we're fired up. And I got mostly just regular cameras. And I'm fired up, like, mainly. Not that I got 200-inch deer to hunt. Just bucks down with our kids. Pretty close. Pretty close, Bronson. No. No. No. Well, 13-inch G4. Let me just add it up for you. 26-inch. Get out your calculator. I do. Hey, 26. Where are we talking about? 13.5. 11.5.

And maybe his G2 is slightly weak. Let's call it a 16.5. Yeah. I give him 17. Okay. 18.5 inches of mass. 2.5 inch high guard. Where am I wrong? Where am I off? 24.5 inch inside. I don't know what that adds up to, but it's got to be mid-90s. Maybe a little more. We'll see. We'll see if I ever get the chance to find out. Well, here you are on a general unit by yourself. No other people, cameras in sight. Huh? Until Saturday. You might want to be in cocktail. A thousand people show up. Saturday, everything changes. That's right. The real world. That's why there's old deer. That's why I'm pretty much hunting with my boy. Because standards are a lot more reasonable. And fun. And stuff's going to happen. I like watching people. It's going to be fun. It is. You've got one of your boys, Sean. Well, Sean's like, hey, Dad, are you going to glass for me or sit in the blind with Justin?

Well, Justin's never shot here with both. Just like my boy, Ty. It's like they need. You have to have some whispering going on. Yes. They see movement in the brush. They're going to want to start drawing back and hold. Yes. Just talk them through the, wait, they're not going there. There'll be some dude in southern Utah in a gorilla suit coming through the bush. You know, you just want to, oh, hold on. Hold on. That's right. Make sure you're target. Remember hunter safety. Anyway. They're excited. But anyway. A lot of good stuff. There's some big bucks being killed in Nevada. Wasn't a great antler growth for deer in Nevada. However, we've heard of several 200-inch deer. Got pictures of them. Congratulations. What an amazing accomplishment to some of these guys that are knocking down a few great bucks. It has been slightly on the slow side. It is. And it will be.

It's got a few good ones, but yeah. Elk are incredible. Kind of crazy how that works. Anyway. Yeah. What else we got? There's archery hunt starting. I mean, this is it. This is what we've been waiting for. What about, well, anyway. I don't want to talk on a downer about like New Mexico coming out with 14-day quarantine. However, I have heard there's no way to force that. So, don't sweat it, everybody. All right. Well, Bronson. Well, we thought partly because of this and where we are and that, you know, some states are opening up. Some are coming. It may be late for some people, but there's a lot of states that in the next two or three weeks, you know, September 1st-ish is a big month. First or second, I think, Colorado, Wyoming, a lot of other states. First week or so in Montana opening up. So, we thought, hey, we need to get somebody on that can really talk with us about, you know,

getting dialed in with your bow setup, whether it be from starting with a bow and arrow and everything set up to tuning the one you got if you tweak something or it's not shooting right or whatever. And so, we thought of Bob Fromm. You know, he's a good dude. He's been in the industry for absolutely ever. He's been there, done that. He's a hardcore hunter as well as has an incredible pro shop and sells bows, works on them, knows them inside and out for being based out of California. Pretty impressive. He's unbelievable. Super good resource. We're going to give him a call, and I think everybody could learn a little something from Bob. He's just one of those kind of guys. Let's get him on.

Hey, guys. Bobby, how are you? Doing good, doing good. Good, good. I'm on a good day, actually. A day off in between all the madness that's been going on, getting guys wanting to buy a lot of gear before the hunting season. Thank goodness. Yeah. We always wait until the last minute. Well, you know, you never know. It was going to this kind of crazy year, as we all know. Yeah. COVID stuff. It's like, okay, you know, we got closed down, you know, for, I don't know, six weeks. But, you know, I basically had all my guys on furlough for six weeks, kind of the end of March through April. And I went in every day, though, to kind of take care of my baby that I've been working on for 40 years, you know, to make sure it stays alive. That's what Adam and I were saying, is we're going to, we'd ride our bikes to work and sneak in if we have to. Yeah.

So I just was in every day and just made appointment only, you know, one guy at a time. And, you know, sold stuff to, you know, good customers that wanted stuff. And, yeah, I tried to pay some bills because they stack up no matter what. That's right. Well, that's partly what prompted our call to you today was we're thinking, hey, you know, even though there's a couple of states that have kicked off with their archery seasons, a lot of them are here to come in the next two to three weeks. And so if somebody's looking to buy a brand new setup and all that, well, you couldn't tell them it's too late to do that. But, you know, it isn't. But also for the guy, they're just, maybe they're switching sites, switching releases, switching broadheads, all the different things that, you know, the factors within archery that can make a bow shoot differently.

We thought, you know, you being, we've known you for forever, Bob, you know, decades. I know. We've talked to them. So, you know, from a hunter standpoint, we've talked to you about hunting. And then obviously from a guy in the industry in terms of, you know, the actual equipment, you know, he just was a good fit. So we appreciate you taking time today. And I knew you back when I was 12 years old. Of course, you knew, you know, my dad. Well, yeah, I remember the first year your dad sent me, I think it was a postcard with him when he was skinny and young of a bull that he shot in the Gila, New Mexico, with his muzzleloader. And he was starting this hunt service. Yeah. And I thought, and God, what year was that? Was that like 21 or 22 years? Yeah, it was two years ago. It was 96. And so winter, 95, spring, 96. 24, 24 years ago. Yeah. And that bull went like 377.

And that was back then when we didn't really, nobody really scored much back then. I mean, that was, you know, it was a big old straight up six point whale tail bull that, I don't know. Of course, he was always passionate about elk. And that fed it, of course. Yeah. So you were, how old were you then? You were teenagers? I was 21 years old. 21 years old. Oh, wow. So you're like 45. You're old. Yeah, 45. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There we go, El. He's closer to 50 than 40. Since we're fleshing all this out. Here we go. I'd give anything to be 45 again and know what I know now. Well, you, and that's what Adam and I were talking about. And we didn't want to belabor it too, you know, too long with, you know, the details. But you've been in this for so long and had so many hunts under your belt. We could spend 14 hours on this podcast just talking about your experiences, you know, and whatnot.

And so anyway, that's kind of what prompted this call is there's very few guys out there with the length of time and the resume that you have. But I think, you know, the stuff that to keep, you know, you know, say we're going to try to get, you know, what we can in an hour that people might get something out of. I would say for sure some of the hunting, planning, preparing, you know, those kind of things, you know, going to the right places at the right times, you know, and that's obviously something you guys help people with. You know, it's huge. And then equipment, even if, you know, they're not buying gear, always trying to improve their setups and their shooting. The biggest increase in accuracy is always with the shooter and very few people put enough effort into their form, you know. And that's really key. They just want to buy the fastest.

They just want to buy the fastest bow and have it make up for indeficiencies or deficiencies. Yeah, well, and I'll ask that. And then in their defense, there aren't a lot of places to seek out good, you know, like instruction and somebody to coach you and teach you. But most people, you know, even if it's available, they don't put much effort into that. And they just want to shoot, you know, punch the trigger a little bit and, you know, grab the bow, however they feel comfortable. And then, you know, sight it in, shoot it 20, you know, 20 arrows a week here and there. And then have their bow sighted in at 60 or 100 and think it's going to hit there when they put the pin there. You know, it's kind of like shooting a long range rifle. Yeah.

And shooting that along, like, it's like shooting a long range rifle just because the thing's thousand yards out of the box or whatever they're saying now. Doesn't mean you can shoot it that far at an animal, you know, or should be. Oh, and I think that part of that is, you know, there's a, there's a, the form and you can't really do that over a podcast, although you can sure discuss it and we can, we can talk about it a little bit. But I think also just like the, like product selection, axle to axle. What does all of this mean? Why, why, why a short one, you know, short bow versus a long, but why, you know, there's just a lot of different options out there and a lot of combinations of gear and whatnot. And, and so maybe just preface, you know, a little bit like. Yeah. If you, if we were dude walking into your store, you know, today and said, I want to get into bow hunting.

I want to, I want to bow on. How do you, what do you first say? All right. What do you. Six foot tall and 180 pounds. But where do you, where do you start? And as we, before we get into, you know, the tuning and form and all that, where do you, where do you start? How do you start with a guy? Or maybe a guy's shot bows before and he's just looking to upgrade. It's been six, eight years since he's done it. And he's, how do you proceed? Yeah. Well, I do this first is ask questions. So you're directing information direct, you know, that's, that's going to help them and not just what you think is the best thing. And the price point of course is important. So yeah, like you can just start off. I guess the question would be like, Hey, when you, what's the best way for somebody to start bow hunting? You know, I'll just say, well, here's what we do.

We get, you know, somebody that comes into the shop. Obviously a pro shop is going to be the best place to go. And some are, you know, are better than others. And, you know, but it's still going to be by far your best way to get started. Right. You know, and then here's the questions I would ask. And I'll go into that and size somebody up by looking at them, ask them if they have shoulder issues. Let's see, you know, if they're young or older, weight, draw weight, you know, and I'll identify that. I'll set up a bow that's, you know, a couple of bows that will be in their price point. And it doesn't have to be, you know, quite carbon bow. If the guy's coming in and wants to spend 500 bucks, I'm not going to, you know, show him something like that. I'm going to show him a couple of really good options in that $500 range and then show him the benefits of something that's in an $800 package.

And why it would be better if he could move up 300 bucks, you know, and not have to upsell, you know, maybe, you know, upgrade in six months or a year if he's really into it. You know, and give him the option at least, you know, because most guys can spend more than they say they can at first, you know, but you can identify it. But if I got a guy that's in the military and, you know, he's 22 years old and he's married and got a kid already, you know, I'm going to be conscious of his budget and not, you know, try to get him in a position that's not good for him. And with that, obviously, the more you spend, the better product you end up with. But how is it? Is it exponentially better product? Is it slightly better product? I mean, you know, or I mean, it's definitely. Well, it's a fine line.

Here's a fine line between, you know, you've had setups that when you point the arrow there and you're like, that thing's going, you know, it's accurate, right? So I don't ever give up, you know, a forgiving balance of, you know, of accuracy and performance to get the bow to where it's good and, you know, accurate under pressure and you're confident with it, right? So that's a combination of a lot of things. But, yeah, like I can go into a lot of detail when you ask about that. If I, you know, like if somebody's six foot three, you know, I'm not going to sell them, you know, above this is probably, you know, 29 or 30 inches axle to axle. Well, you mentioned that earlier because my boy, I was talking to Jason about this day, I got him one of these Hoyts. I can't remember the model right now. I'm sorry. But it was one of those 15 pounds.

It goes 15 to 70 and it goes like 19 inches draw maybe to 30. And it's maxed out. He's 6'3 now. He's 15. He probably needs a new bow. Oh, he does. And it snuck up on us too late. We started shooting and I'm like, wow, we should have done this. He's a young kid. He's all legs and arms. He's just a gangly, big gangly thing. He's not shooting 70 pounds is the problem. But he's maxed it out on draw length. It's maxed out. Yeah. And it's pinching. I can see. Well, this bow is, and it's going to be less forgiving because it's a short bow. Yeah, it is, especially. I shoot a 33 and a half or something, whatever. It is long. You know, I'm pretty long draw length. I get a 30 and a half or 31 is what I like it. Yeah. So I have a long bow. And anyway, why, what are the differences in shooting? Why does he need to change bows? Tell us, I mean, just back to the basics. Mechanics of it, yeah. Yeah.

So there's a lot of different reasons. And, you know, some of them are at 10 yards, aren't as obvious as they will be at 60 yards in six months, you know. So we try to give, you know, the guy the forward view of that too, and not just what feels good at 10 yards. And that's usually where we're starting them. But yeah, you want something to string angle. You know, the longer bows are going to, the longer the riser, the more stable, the better the bow is going to aim as a general rule. And if your string angle is really tight, it's hard to get a repeatable anchor point, which your anchor point being repeatable is going to make, you know, turn into rear sight accuracy. And also the tighter the string angle is, the more, the less forgiving it's going to be to, you know, hand torque and arrow tuning, stuff like that.

So, you know, a super long bow though, for somebody that's short and they're on the bottom of the cam, you know, draw length adjustment, it's not going to be, it's not going to give them good, you know, speed. Trajectory always plays into, you know, part of your accuracy. You don't want to sacrifice, you know, everything for, for flat trajectory. So you want to have the right balance of, you know, arrow weight, speed, all those things that, you know, end up having a really good, forgiving, good, you know, fun to shoot setup that's going to be, it's going to be solid and dependable in a hunting situation and not just on the 3D course or in the backyard, you know, in the summertime with your short sleeve shirt on, you know, at a marked distance. So, yeah, I mean, it's, a lot of it's based on, on, um, experience, you know, with thousands

of customers and every size, shape and form you can imagine in 40 years. Tell us about carbon bows versus non-carbon. Uh, why, why to go one versus the other besides money? If money, yeah. Well, there's a big, there's a benefit to the carbon. So like if you take, so you take a Hoyt carbon bow, Hoyt, and that Hoyt aluminum riser bow, which is, you know, there's one other company that makes, you know, PSG makes a decent, um, a carbon bow now too, but until, you know, two years ago, pretty much Hoyt was the only one and they really got it perfected best, I feel. And Hoyt, and, uh, the PSGs are pretty nice now, but let's just say Hoyt because that's the one that most people are familiar with. And, um, and that's the one that most shops, you know, carry and have for years, but, uh, you can get the exact same.

So say an RX four ultra, which is what I shoot, you know, it's a 34 inch axle to axle bow. It weighs, you know, right at four pounds. Um, and you take an Axios ultra, which is the aluminum version of it, exact same dimensions. And, uh, you know, everything about it, uh, cams, limbs, geometry, you know, grip, brace height, all that stuff is exactly the same with the aluminum bow, limb pockets, all those things that add up into performance and accuracy. The aluminum bow is about three quarters of a pound heavier. So it's noticeably heavier in your hand. So the carbon bow, 20%. Yeah. So it's, that's, it doesn't sound like a lot. Like you put three quarters of a pound in your backpack, you're like, you know, carry, you carry whatever, you know, your tripod or whatever, but, um, you add it into the bow and, and then, you know, the, the fact that you have the carbon, that's kind of a cool

feel to it, you know, it's kind of less, absorbs vibration. It's a absorbing material carbon by, by nature. So it, it actually has kind of a cool feel to it, but it also in, in, in cold weather, like say somebody sitting in a tree stand and they're hunting, you know, back in Iowa or, you know, Illinois or whatever. And late November or Alberta, which is really damn cold. And I've been there in November. It really sucks sitting in a tree stand for a week with a, with a aluminum bow in your hand, your hands, you know, it's hard enough to shoot. And I shot fingers for 30 some years now, I'm shooting release, but you still need your hands to really, you know, especially your release or shot, you know, your finger hands to actually release the bow. Right. But so you get the, you get the warmth of the carbon, uh, you get the lightness, which is one of the main benefits.

And, um, you know, those all equate into, well, is it worth 500 bucks? You know? So if a guy's trying to save $500 on a setup, you can buy basically the aluminum bow with a nice drop away rest and a pretty good site and stabilizer. And, you know, basically they, they have the aluminum bow set up with what your carbon bow would cost, you know, you know, net. But, you know, I ask guys a lot of times I'm like, you know, when they're a guy that I know can afford a better bow and I'm like, Hey, let's just shoot them, you know, and see what you like to feel of and what, what's going to work better for you. And, um, here's what I want to, you know, interject though. A lot of times is if you just go by the 10 yard, you know, rule, what people are basically judging most bows on in most pro shop situations is that they're going to go by what draws

smooth and what, you know, feels low recoil and low, low, low, you know, vibration. And a lot of the bows are, are excellent in that feel like the new Matthews VXRs make their really low refill, excellent bow. We sell tons of them. Um, but what I will also interject into somebody that's shooting it against, say, a Hoyt, somebody that I see that wants to use, he's pretty good shot and he's going to put, uh, emphasis on long range shooting. Um, you know, maybe in a 3d, you know, situation, or maybe he wants to reach out and hunt, you know, mule deer and, uh, and be able to have a long, effective range. Then I will give him some of the benefits of say a Hoyt, which maybe has a little tiny bit more recoil, maybe not, it's pretty close. Uh, but there's some really good tunable features in the Hoyt bows, um, that, you know, they've

engineered target accuracy into all their high-end hunting bows. Um, so I'll, you know, interject a little bit of that. So somebody has some more information. If I feel like they can actually benefit from it or, you know, digest it, you know, and not confuse them too much, you know, so I just go by, by the, by the customer, you know, exactly what I think is going to be best for him and give them the most amount of information, the easiest way for him to, you know, that he can actually apply it and then let them make a good decision, whether it's some aluminum bow that's $400, you know, $450 package bow, or if it's going to be a $1,600 carbon, you know, Hoyt bow out the door, it all depends on the person. And, uh, and, uh, just give them, you know, like I said, options with, with good, solid information that's factual and not totally opinionated, you know, but I also can base

a lot of my opinion on fact because shot a lot of bows and I've got thousands, thousands, thousands of customers and I've got really good employees that are passionate about archery and, you know, are doing it every day and shooting. And that's the only kind of guys I hire. And then I train the heck out of them. I've got a really good general manager, you know, Fane Pittman. That's really helped me a lot. And so we, we have an excellent crew, you know, at performance archery and, um, we do everything we can to make everybody a better archer, not just selling equipment, but selling, selling them the right equipment is really important, um, to, to the foundation of their shooting that, that the bow matches them. If they're, you know, if they're six foot, you know, three, uh, I'm not going to be showing them 30 inch axle to axle bows unless they're, they demand it.

And they're like a tree stand ground blind guy only. And most of those bows are going to max out at 30 inch draw length anyway. If they're that kind of axle to axle length. And a lot of times if a guy's six, three, he's going to be, you know, a little bit over 30 inches depending on the arm length, of course, but I'm going to be more into the 32 to 34 inch, 35 inch bows are going to be better with the string angles and everything else to give them a good anchor point and repeatable. What about some of the accessories? Like, um, are you a fan of having, you know, the quiver attached to the bow or not? I know that's out there and, and rests and different things, but maybe, you know, talk about some of the accessories. Yeah. I mean, you don't have dialed in. I mean, it's like a, it's like a race car, right? So, I mean, I, I'll equate it to that.

Your, your bow, um, the arrow rest is, is, is the, is the carburetor of the engine, right? So you need a quality arrow rest that's going to be dependable, easy to adjust and going to be durable and stay, you know, functional for, through all kinds of different hunting applications. So your arrow rest has got to be solid. It's got to be adjustable. It's got to give you clearance. You know, it's got to be able to shoot it for years and not have to worry about it and be fragile. So we're going to do the arrow rest be the first thing. Almost all of our high end bows are, are going to be, you know, drop away, whether it's a QAD or a Hamsky. Those are, you know, the two that we pretty much, you know, put on the bows now. Uh, we used to, you know, do trophy taker pretty, pretty good for a while. And it's, that's quality's changed a little bit over the years.

Um, but, um, and then whisker biscuits are bulletproof, you know, and super easy, you know, for new people. They're inexpensive to add to a package. They're really dependable. They seem to tune well. They're safe. You know, you don't have to worry about locking them up. They're all coming out. It always felt weird to me to shoot through the veins dragging through there, but I don't think it matters, but it, it's just, it's like shooting through blinds. If the mesh is tight, it's like, do you shoot through the mesh blind? Mentally, it brought, Bobby, Bobby, do you shoot through mesh? Does it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, shooting, shooting the fletching, you know, through a whisker biscuit, you know, if you've got the thing indexed correctly, you caught further up, you know, all that stuff, it slows it down a little bit, but there's, there's always trade-offs on almost everything. You know, like.

But at the end of the day, the whisker biscuit is a good choice. Like it's. It is, you know, for like the right guy. I mean, I don't put any of them, you know, on a carbon bow, but I think for like your, your mid-range bow and a good place to start, it is a quality rest, you know? And yeah, the arrow's not going to pop out. They're not going to forget. It's quiet. It's not, it's quiet. They're not fumbling it around and hitting their wrist. How about, how about, have you ever used toothbrushes for a wrist, cut off a toothbrush and glue it to your riser? Bronson. No, I'm serious. Huh? This is when we were kids and you're just modifying. Come on. No, I'm serious. We had recurve, recurves. And you know, you had a shelf, right? Bob, Trish, and Arsh, they just have like leather. Leather shelf. It was a plastic little, it was like a guitar pick. Chintzy. Stick it out there.

But I remember a friend of mine, he had his wrist bluff, so he took a toothbrush and cut off just the, and glued it there and that's what he set it on. I'm dead serious. How they killed anything, Bobby, but how you guys killed anything back then was just amazing. Have you ever seen a bow with a toothbrush as a wrist? No, we weren't that innovative. California kids aren't as innovative as you guys up there. Well, hey, it was just, it also might be one of the reasons that dentists do really well in Utah because you guys are using your toothbrushes for arrow resins. I don't know. Who knows? Who knows? But I have a friend. I mean, he's no longer with us, but he shot it with a toothbrush on his recurve. 45 pounder. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, you kind of count it to the side, but anyway, that one didn't catch on. The whisker best get caught on.

That was back in the days with the brass, the brass sides that were on an angle because it wasn't tuned right. And they were just like, well, 20 is this and 30 is even further up. Yeah. And the brass rest that kind of was a little spring with a coil. You'd pull back. Sometimes your air would just screech. Oh, wow. The springy rest. Yeah, those things are terrible. And it would screech. And I'm like, how can you ever drop? And then it would come off. And you're trying to put it back up on there. Yeah. I'd try to put hot glue on it. And then it would grip. Anyway. We've come along. The bottom line is a whisker biscuit or a fall away. You're doing either or. Depending on the situation. Good of both. Yeah. And then as far as, you know, like a quiver on the bow, I mean, I'm always trying to improve my setup no matter what and get my accuracy better.

And I use a tight spot quiver, which is probably the lowest profile. Where your balance is on your bow has a lot to do with how it shoots at long range. As you know, you see all your target guys with long stabilizers and sidebars. And there's a reason they do that because it makes the bow shoot really well. But, you know, I've shot with the quiver on. You know, I like to shoot with it on a lot in case I have to in a hunting situation. That's me. But if I can take it off, like I got on a nice buck last year in a snowstorm in Colorado and eastern Colorado right before Thanksgiving. And it was blowing and cold and windy and crappy. And I had a pretty nice buck we were on. You know, it was like a 190 class deer, you know, a really good buck. And, you know, crawling out in the open. Like I took the quiver off because I knew it was going to be windy.

And we had kind of a crosswind the way we came in on him. And I ended up making a long shot at him after we spooked one of the smaller bucks. I took a longer shot than I wanted to, but nailed him good. You know, right through both lungs, watched him go 100 yards and go down. But I took the quiver off to shoot because I know it's going to be a little bit less of a sail. I'm going to be able to aim better. But, like, if I shoot a broadhead, you know, it shoots pretty good with the quiver on. I try to tune it. But if I take it off, it seems like it puts a little less torque on the bow. So it's not as sensitive to your hand grip and everything else. And I'm always looking at it like you've got, let's say you've got a quiver that has five arrows in it. And you get down to two arrows. Is that going to affect it a little bit? Does that happen? Right.

Well, I mean, stuff gets westerned from time to time. Maybe not with Bob from. You tell me, Bobby. I usually have a seven arrow and I get down to one. I've had that happen. Okay. Does it shoot different? Will it shoot different? I mean, it's weighted different? It's going to feel different? It should. The vibration is going to be different? Well, it depends on how well you shoot, right? If you're Randy Ulmer, yeah, you're going to tell. What I do is I usually tell a guy, put three to four arrows in your five arrow quiver because you're never going to shoot it with five. You're always going to have at least one out. But we love. That makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah, so four max. The law of averages. In between. Yeah, so go get it. It's going to be like an inch one way or the other depending on how well you shoot. And some people can't tell an inch group at, you know, 40 or 50 yards.

Yeah. So the biggest thing, like I said, is getting a bullet that you know is repeatable. It's set up. It's got the right spine arrows. Good arrow weight. And then we get into that. That's a whole other thing. People have gone nuts on heavy arrows and stuff. And I'm not an advocate of one end or the other. I like what's the best all-around balance. It gives me a good trajectory and it's going to penetrate well. But as far as, you know, a good setup for each person, you know, the arrow weight is definitely the spine's number one thing that you would do is get it in the arrow spine of the bow. And always, if anything, being a tiny bit on the stiff side is better than too weak. Too weak. Yeah, otherwise you got whip, right? Your arrow whip. Yeah, well, if it starts flexing too much, then your broadheads get sensitive.

If you get, you know, overspined, then the arrows actually will, you know, kick into the bow. If it's over stiff and then it ends up, you know, not, it'll, you know, broad as a steer off to the left, you know, so if you're right-handed. But, you know, you want to have the right balance. What seems to work, what I've seen to get the ultimate, you know, trajectory for me, I shoot a lot of different arrows every year and I've done four-fledged, three-fledged, different broadheads. It's, you know, I like to tune my bows for fixed-blade broadheads. So if I'm shooting elk or moose or grizzly or big, big boars, I'm leaning towards a fixed blade. And that's going to be, to me, is the ultimate tune on a bow is if it shoots fixed-blade broadheads, you know, consistently accurate and close to my field points, you know, out at distance, you know. Then it will shoot the expandable.

Then it'll, yeah, you can shoot anything, you know. So I start, you know, with a paper tune and then I'll maybe bear shaft my own bow. But, you know, if you bear shaft to test your bow and you don't have good form, you're torquing the bow, it's a nightmare. So we don't really advocate that too much unless somebody's at that level and they want to do it themselves. We'll get a paper tune, get a shot in, and we'll broadhead shoot their bows, you know, with fletching at a broadhead target in our range with, you know, assistance and we'll have somebody help tune it and we'll put out, you know, a broadhead target only. But what I've found is, you know, say the average guy is 5'10 to 6'1 and he's going to be shooting a 28 to 29 and a half inch draw and he's going to be shooting, you know, 65 to 70 pounds. 400 grain overall arrow is going to be, you know, kind of on the lighter side.

A small diameter arrow will also penetrate better if you have a little less weight. I like a 425 to 450 and I'll have, I've got two different arrows that I have set up, you know, a I should victory BAP peak TKOs end up fletching up at, they're slightly heavier than a standard BAP Elite 300 spine. Uh, they're going to end up, the TKOs end up at like 450 with a 50 grain insert, 100 grain head, three fletch, you know, arrow. I like a three inch, um, flex fletch Silent Night vein with a medium helical. That's been the best vein for me overall. They stick, you know, pop off the arrows easily. They're easy to, to get stick on. They're good. They give you a really good stability with broadheads to get a little twist on it. So I get a rotation. Um, Grim Reaper inch and three sixteenths. I've shot inch and three sixteenths, three bladed heads for, you know, 40 years off and

on between Rocky Mountain Thunderheads, you know, a bunch of different companies that just seems to be for me, my go-to comfort zone that I know works on, you know, 10, 10 foot brown bears, um, 65 inch moose, 250 pound boars, or, you know, whatever it, it, you know, it goes right through everything. 200 inch mill deer. Is there a secret combination for a 200 inch mill deer? Uh, yeah. Rifle. You know, like you guys, you know, I've got figured out too. No, I know you guys kill a bunch of big ones with your bow too, for sure. But yeah, I've got, I've got one of those. Um, but I, I like for deer, like on softer animals, like deer, um, I, I love a, an expandable for the accuracy and the, and the hemorrhage that it causes and the penetration that you can, you know, is more than sufficient on, on stuff that like say antelope deer, cheap caribou.

I have no problem shooting a, like a Grim Reaper three blade inch and three eights cut, um, you know, broadhead through those. I've had really good success on those Ibex in Spain, uh, stuff in Africa. Uh, uh, but, um, on stuff like elk moose. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, you get a quartering shot and I need to come from one end to the other. Um, I shot a seven and a half foot bear and, and I'll BC and long range actually. And I hit him quartering away at a long shot, according away on the 15th day of a 14 day hunt. And I hit him right in front of the hip as he turned a little bit and it came all the way through and popped out, you know, between the shoulder and his neck, you know, a full length of a seven and a half foot bear, whatever their, whatever their body size is. I don't know. It's not seven and a half foot, but it was a lot.

And, you know, they just disappeared up in him and he went down the hill a hundred yards and was toast. I might not have got all the way into the good stuff if I was shooting, you know, a two inch cut, you know, pretty square blade. So what was your setup on that bear? What was it? Uh, uh, shooting fingers then that was like around 2000 when I shot that, my mountain grizzly. Um, I, I was shooting a, I think I was shooting about a, I was shooting fingers. So I was shooting 74 pound, um, Matthews solo cam at that time. It's a great bow. And I had about a 475 grain total arrow with, with a 125 grain head on there and an inch and three sixteenths, um, broadhead. And then, yeah, I went one end to the other. Jeez. Um, yeah, but now I'm shooting release and I'm shooting left-handed instead of right-handed. I've changed some stuff up. Is that? Yeah.

Your eyes, is that because your eyes changed or were you always, were you always left-eyed, should have been left-handed or left-eyed shooter from the start? Yeah. I can't, I don't know. I'd probably equally crappy with both sides. So I just, no, I shot fingers for forever. I mean, you were, if you, if you shot a release, when, when I started, you were a sissy boy, man. I shot fingers. We did bare fingers. I was taught you calloused up. I just, I mean, that was, anyway. Yeah. You have a, we had a tab too, a little vel. Those little Saunders brown ones, that's what I shot, a little brown tab forever. And it's probably been 10 years. Yeah. About 10 years or so. Not that long since I started shooting release. So I shot fingers for years. And then the bows were longer and high brace height and real bows. And that's because they made it that way.

And then as the bows got shorter and, you know, higher lead off and lower brace heights, and they weren't conducive to shooting well with fingers, you know. And so I basically got to a point once I had, like, you know, I finished the North American 28 and then before they threw the Tule elk in there, I'm like, okay, it's time for me to change. You know, I'm not shooting these newer, newer bows that, you know, that were actually selling well. They're just not conducive to good arrow, you know, finger shooting. So I'm going to change to a release. And I'd shot, you know, heavy bows for 30 plus years. And when I went to Cape Buffalo hunting, I was shooting 95 pound bows for a year each time. I was shot two buffalo. So my neck and shoulder and scapula and everything were kind of overbuilt. I was pretty much lopsided from that and playing competitive tennis for, you know, my whole life.

Well, you know, played in college and played my whole life, but not competitive my whole life. But I played, you know, everything one side basically. And so I was, when I went to, you know, shoot a lot, my neck would kind of get locked up a little bit. Also, the main reason was I, I ended up, you know, shot fingers. And when I went to shoot a release, I was just kind of had a little target panic and I shot handhelds and did some stuff. And I just, at the end of the day, I said, you know, one of my friends, Jerry Morrison, that I did video stuff with, and another friend of mine, Darren Collins, he was a really good shot. They're both right-handed and they switched to left and started some stuff on. To get rid of that, to get rid of that target panic and. Well, the other side of your brain, I guess you have, you know, like kind of a controlling hyper side of your brain.

And, and so, you know, I'm kind of a, a personality, a little bit hyper or whatever you want to call it, squirrely at times, then kind of, you know. I relate. We relate to that. Do we need to be left-hand shooters? Yeah. That's what I'm wondering. That's right. That's why I'm asking these probing questions. I wonder. I'm doing it all. I could only imagine myself trying to pull back even a 50-pound bow left after. You can't even imagine. Well, and you start, you know, your demand excellence from yourself and then you start, you know, getting punchy with the trigger. And now I know how to shoot way better. And so it helped, you know, the fact that I didn't have all that bad muscle memory I had to be rid of. Yeah. Mechanically, you're kind of hitting reset. It's kind of like, well, Carter and I talked to people. Yeah, everybody did. We talked to people.

Be rid of bad habits because right-handed, I, I know how to, I know how I shoot. Oh, yeah. And you're not going to fix the way I shoot now. And it's a little bit like optics. Jason and I are, we're straight spotting scope guys. We don't, we don't. Never use angles. We've tried to force ourselves to do angled and it has a lot of benefits. You know, lower tripod, neck fatigue, all that. We've tried them for about 30 minutes and we're like, no thanks. I don't want to try to find a deer on a hillside. I can't find it quick enough. So we move on. And I'm not patient enough to work at it. So it's maybe the same principle we're talking about. Yeah. So what I did is left-handed, I had zero, I was like a fresh slate. So I didn't have any bad habits, but I also had zero muscle memory from shooting 30 some years fingers when I, you know, you create a bunch of no one you're going to shoot.

And I, and I learned, I had panic a little bit fingers and I shot like a clicker that was attached to your string into a little clickety thing on the, on the limb. So you're not going to shoot a clicker that goes over your broadhead. Um, you know, like a target shooter recurve would do, but I, you know, I won four state broadhead championships and a lot of local, you know, 3d stuff. So I got to a pretty decent level where I could shoot well. But when I went to the release thing, it was just, you know, I wasn't able to shoot comfortably. So I switched to left-handed and the good part was I had zero muscle memory. The bad part is I had zero muscle. You know, it's like right in the right coordination. Cause I'm not left-handed for anything. I can't even write my name. I can't even write my name left-handed, let alone have something with razor blades. I can't do it right-handed either. Yeah.

So I went left-hand, you know, felt dorky. Like just like when I started somebody out pretty much new in the store. So, you know, we do that a lot. And, um, you got to really commit to this. It's a, you got to say, I'm doing it. I would clear out the shop because I don't know where this arrow is going. My first shot left-handed would be hilarious. Yeah. It's, it's not for everybody. Um, but, and I didn't know if it was going to work for me because I had never done anything left-handed and I was able to close my right eye. My left eye is not that much weaker than my right. So some people are really dominant on one side and they can't close the other eye. So that, that, that puts you right out. And then you got to be open-minded and have to want to be, to improve and it's not going to happen immediately. So, uh, to me, it was like, here's a new challenge. You know, I've done the 28.

I want to shoot good. Um, I don't, I'm not, I don't like my accuracy at long range with fingers with these new bows. It's not as good as I used to be and as good as I want to be. So I'm going to put the commitment in and at least give it a chance and back to where I could hold on the target and pull through the shot. And I've shot like a hinge release and thumb buttons and not that you can't shoot an index finger release. Well, uh, cause a lot of guys can, if you're kind of a mellow guy and you actually start out right and shorten it up and hook your finger around and use your back. But most people are going to lengthen it out and put it on the end of their finger and squeeze it like they think they're shooting a gun and end up with all kinds of issues. And especially under pressure, they can kind of control it on a target for a while.

And their buddies are shooting together with a 3d once in a while, they'll lose one and they think they need to practice more. And that just makes more panic. And then when they're hunting, they're, they're all over the place and hitting stuff bad or missing them. So if you learn how to shoot, right, the right form and just by buying a thumb release, like you watch somebody online, um, that does it right and sells you a release and yes, there's good information online for sure, but nothing is going to substitute somebody sitting there and showing, making sure the release is adjusted properly for you, getting your back in the right position to pull through it. Your front arm, your bow arm has to be down and relaxed and solid for the pin to be steady. So you can stay on the target long enough for the pull through the release, right?

And once you learn how to do all those stuff with things, with the right adjustments, draw length on the bow keeps in the right position, releases adjusted correctly. Somebody showed you how to get your, your, your foundation of your shot, right. And pull through it. Then it's mentally just duplicating that shot and just telling yourself a couple of little simple things. For me, it's elbow, which gets me into my back and transfers it into my elbow. And I just start pulling with my back. And then the other one's just even pressure. So I don't punch it. And then I just ended up going right through the top, you know, the shot and then put more focus on, on, on the actual shot execution and putting the pin on the target and trying to hit the target. If you try to hit the target, you don't shoot the bow, right. If you shoot the bow, right, you hit the target.

So it's the opposite of what people naturally do. So, and somebody can coach you and you're open to it. You'll get good. But if you just do the best you can, it makes archery, especially bow hunting, extremely, extremely difficult. And I think that's the part I like about it is I shot, you know, some deer locally here, which we don't have great deer hunting, but I shot a few deer, a rifle and at three and 400 yards. And I didn't even know what the hell I was doing, but I could kill them, you know, pretty much every time. And they didn't even know I was in the zip code. And that's why I started bow hunting. And then it was like, okay, it'll start out, you know, legal deer, forking one with a bow. I'm stoked. Right. And then, or a cow elk or whatever. And then I think you're just, as you, as you go, depending on how you're wired and what's important to you, I love the meat.

I utilize the meat, but I think the challenge of just getting bigger animals and exactly what you guys do, how hard you guys hunt and scout and put in for areas to try to kill really big deer, because it's way more difficult than shooting a small average one, you know, and that's kind of the reward for doing it. And it's, you know, is, is the difficulty factor. And I think for me, I liked hunting different species and going to different adventures because each hunt and place you go is an adventure. And it's not just about, you know, another species. It's about the cool experience of a new area with a new animal and the challenges that animal has that puts towards you. I'm trying to figure them out and how to get inside their defense zone when, you know, there's some kind of predator trying to eat them every day, whether it's a wolf, mountain lion, or, you know, whatever it is, coyotes.

And, you know, that's kind of what's driven me to, to, to try to improve my shooting, you know, get bigger animals, stay fitness. Well, you put so much, there's so much gone into getting a tag and there's so much that goes into, sometimes we're booking hunts three or four years out. Like, as you know, some of the better outfitters in Canada, Alaska, or whatever, are years, years out. And, and so it's kind of, you're putting them, there's also this aspect of having the right gear, having it set up right. You might have the right gear and it's not set up right, but just having all the little details put together means a lot, especially when these hunts are, A, they're not cheap. B, they're hard to come by. Yeah. I tell guys, I mean, if you don't plan, you're not, you're never going to just have these hunts happen. So planning them super important.

So, so like, you know, I've been, you know, with, with, you know, when, when your dad, we talked about it earlier, you know, and Garth sent me a postcard 24 years ago, I think you said it was, and it was with him when he was skinny and young and good looking. And now he's probably, you know, he's just one of those, maybe one of those things. He's skinny. But he had a giant bull elk and I still remember the Gila, New Mexico. And you want information. I'm going to have this newsletter. But you know, like I, I, I, I pay a hundred bucks to join, you know, for Epic every year because of our relationship for me to be able to talk to you and Adam when I want to, and you guys are always available and give me great information. I totally value that network and information you guys have got, which is way more than I can have as far from a standpoint of what's changing, what's new, different areas.

And I've got, you know, 20 and 30 years into some of these applications. You've got a lot more money into the invested points that, than, yeah. Time. Look at, look, you're, I mean, time. Again, we're talking about my age. Let's talk about your age. Let's talk about, you know. And so, and, and, and, and now you're looking, you're probably looking at, okay, what am I going to do for the, between now and the end? What, what do I want to do? And those are important. Every hunt is super important. And I think, and I think like you, maybe you joined for information, same thing with us to you. I'm thinking, Hey, I'm going to want a cup, maybe even a couple of bows, maybe. And I'm going to be calling to you because I'm telling you, like I've already, like just for you telling me all this stuff and we talk about it on the podcast. This is your wheelhouse. All of these things.

I, I, I'm, I mean, there was one little aspect. We could do it. We could do a whole podcast on releases. I was going to start asking some follow-up questions, but like we could do that with everything. We could do it about arrows and fletching. We could do that about, you know, every aspect we're talking about. There are a lot of different releases, but you know, whether it's the trigger, which I shoot just to. Well, each one can be a ton. And yeah, it can be its own, you know, category, but that's the way we're looking at, uh, archery equipment. When we have a question, we're calling you and I, and, and it's not like I don't have the time as you don't have time to do certain things in your life. I don't have the time to go research every arrow rod head combination and all of these things. And so I think that's, what's important about, you know, having a resource like you and,

and the podcast podcast listeners, it's going to be interesting. I think you're going to get a few calls and I think they should be uninhibited to go ahead and give you a holler or your staff, you know? Yeah. We get a ton of guys that come from a long ways and they, you know, they'll, they'll come because maybe they've got a pro shop and they've kind of got, you know, to the, to the max of that capacity, you know, ability of that. Maybe that pro shops, um, technical advice or whatever they're available to give to them. Cause a lot of guys are, you know, there, there's a lot of good pro shops and they're all going to be excellent and best choice that you're going to have compared to what's, you know, buying something online and trying to be a bow hunter is a joke. Uh, there's some things you can buy online that if you need to have supply of, but to

start up, you need to get it, go to somebody that's going to help you. Right. And there's different varying degrees of, you know, of ability and technical knowledge. And so we get a lot of people driving a long ways to get their bows, you know, like restrung tuned, new rest, custom arrows. We do a really high end custom arrow where we, you know, we spine index and we square them. Um, we fletch them and fletch them with a really good, uh, fletching jigs from, you know, like $500 fletching jigs from lost chance archery. We've got this burgers too. And, uh, all the latest, greatest stuff and stuff we know works and, you know, putting the, you know, the right, uh, components in, you know, yeah. And then if a guy wants that, and if he wants a $6, $6.99 arrow, I've got a great, you know, arrow from victory that, you know, it's not as straight and everything's a good place to start.

So I've got some for everybody just depends what they want to do, but there's been to be more and more people now that know a lot of information and it's really good to get, there's some great information out there, you know, on the internet. And there's some stuff that you can apply and at least educate yourself. But at the end of the day, there's nothing that's going to, um, substitute a good technician dialing your bow in and somebody showing you how to shoot it. Right. And, and stuff we see instantly because we do it every day. Like we can tell the guy's anchoring, right. The draw links, you know, a half inch too long, the peeps too low or too high. Um, you know, check and see if the teams are out of time. You know, we, we just, we, from all the different, you know, troubleshooting we've done and shooting

ourselves, it's pretty easy for us to identify and improve pretty much everybody's setup. Equipment wise, the hard part is getting people to be dedicated enough to, to change what's comfortable form wise, once they've shot incorrectly for a long time, you know, something that's comfort, comfortable to them. And they're going to say, oh man, I feel like I shot, you know, they shot, they'll remember the good arrows. They're not going to remember the bad ones or the animals they missed, you know, when they, when they had to be disciplined for 21 days to change a habit of doing something new and correct. And then there are guys that, that it's really rewarding for me. I do a lot of personal stuff for some of my guys that I know it's rewarding for me to take them and say, okay, I'm going to work on your form. We're going to get this release. I'm going to show you how to shoot it.

You come to the store and then what you do is when you go home and I've got guys that live, you know, a hundred miles or 600 miles away and they just, we'll just FaceTime and I'll follow up and work on their form and show them what they're doing. And there's usually one or two things that they do consistently wrong. That's comfortable that they need to change. Like they're almost too low or, you know, whatever it is, or the shoulders too high or grips, you know, too much on the bow instead of, you know, on that thumb line. And some of those things will get them to pull through the shot. Right. And they, once they get all that together, you know, following up on it, um, all of a sudden they turn into a lot better shot and then, and they, and they love it. And then they become really loyal long-term customers.

But for me, the reward is that they, that they're, that they improve their shooting and they enjoy and stick with the sport and get their buddies into it and the families. Well, one, you know, we've talked a little bit about arrows, bows, equipment, all that, which it's hard to, in one podcast, cover it all. And you got the fact, the personal factor, part of its budget, part of its build frame tendencies, all that that you kind of got to see and prescribe individually. But, uh, a couple of things I want to get into, um, which using correct form and correct practice are kind of some things we can talk about that are somewhat more universal in terms of form and practice. But, uh, talk about real quick, as we bleed, blend into that, the releases and tendencies or things that you see, because a lot of people, you know, whether it's target panic or just

improper use of, um, releases are supposed, are supposed to make up for the inconsistency in shooting with fingers. I mean, that's, that's why they were even invented, right? Because I mean, I'm assuming I'm making assumptions here, but that's what they're supposed to do. But if you don't use them right, they can be as bad or worse than, you know, you know, flipping three fingers off. Well, there's a disconnect, yeah, there's a disconnect between your, your, your, you know, your fingers and the arrow when you take your fingers off the string. Um, but the benefit is, is that you have a disconnect between, you know, your fingers not being on the string, which there's a lot more tension changes that can happen and everything else. But a lot of people freak out because they're, they're control freaks or, and they don't, you

know, it's easy to punch your release and have, have, you know, a worse, uh, you know, experience depending on how they shoot it. But here's what I'll tell you, here's what I'll tell you that I, that I, kind of what we do and what we found works for a multitude of people. And there's, there's also exceptions to every rule, right? So, um, and it depends a lot on, on the person's talent and, and his ability to take instruction and apply it. And then also their, their diligence to, um, end up being actually, you know, practice it enough to turn it into a habit and not just something, you know, that I teach people all the time. I come back and they're doing the same thing two weeks, three weeks, a month later. I tell them again. And it's like, Oh yeah, you told me that, you know, yeah, I know. I told you that 17 times. How come you're not doing it?

You know, and I'll get a whole hard and tough love on them. Cause I just like, I'm taking my time to try to help them. And we, and I don't personally do too many private lessons. It's not like you can come book an hour, an hour with me or, cause I've got so much to do right now with, you know, running the store and everything else and trying to keep the inventory in and bills paid. And I had to do a lot of sales. I love doing that. And I'll help my customers that every single person I help, I'm putting some type of form, you know, you know, into them trying to improve their shooting ability, whether it's the first time they've shot a bow or they've been shooting for 20 years. But if they aren't, uh, aren't committed to, to wanting to improve and do what it takes to improve your, you know, once I find out that they're not doing it and I'm not as likely

to put as much, you know, um, information and, and effort into them if they're not going to, you know, actually take it and run with it, you know, cause you, you need to practice correctly. You need to be doing what I've seen is like most people do for, you know, say four times a week and you need to do quality arrows on it. So maybe depending on your focus, your strengths, you know, how long you've been shooting, whatever, you know, it might be 20 good arrows. And then you start getting a little sloppy or you're thinking about business or your wife's, you know, wanting to go to dinner or your kids are, you know, screaming and killing each other, whatever they do. Um, you know, or it's a wind's blowing you around. So you need to just shoot, but I like to shoot four times a week. I like to shoot, keep your strengths and some of those little twitchy things that you do

to, you know, keep your bow aiming well and, and just, you know, like endurance enough to where you're, you're shooting well at the end of the session as well as the beginning. Um, you know, like I should say, I get like in that 50 arrow range. Um, and then I start, you know, like that's, I think that's enough of it. If I'm shooting really good, I'll just keep putting them on. But if I start getting a little sloppy and getting tired, then I'll, you know, I'll go back up maybe a little closer and finish with some really good shots. So always finish on a good, confident note and I'll shoot more in for, for form and confidence. And, uh, sometimes that can be long range too. If it's not windy and I got a big enough target where I can relax and drop them in there. That's, you know, you need to know you need to shoot long range, but I don't shoot

as much long range as I probably do at 40 yards where I can still stack them pretty damn good. And it's far enough to where it's not like 20, where you can get away with some, some, some sloppiness and still have a pretty good result. So crazy. How long have you been doing this?

Uh, Oh, I don't know. When was Fred Flintstone born somewhere? I know you guys are talking to Almer, which was pretty funny, you know, because we're talking about the beginning of archery and the guys at store, they'll, they'll, some guy will come in some old guy and keep guy like, yeah, he'll bring this bow in and they're like, Oh, we got to go get the archery Google. And that's what they call me because I've seen every frigging bow. And for some reason I can remember string links and how to, how to adjust them. But basically, I had a Jennings, a four wheel S handle was my first bow. So, and, um, yeah, pretty crazy. I bought a used and went to Catalina, uh, Island where we, that was a great way to start. Dude, we used to have really good opportunities back in the, in the seventies, uh, started kind of late seventies, I guess. Uh, went to Catalina, had a bow for two weeks.

They weren't going to have a hunt until the next spring. So I went and, and I didn't know what that guy was doing hunting wise. And, you know, I'd done a little bit, but, uh, with a rifle, but that's not the same as getting a hundred, you know, getting 50 yards from a goat that gets hunted every day of his life. And those islands are pretty smart. Yeah. But, um, yeah. So yeah, late seventies, you know, we had islands, uh, Catalina, Santa Cruz, they had goats and pigs on Catalina and Merino sheep and pigs on Santa Cruz Island off the Santa Barber, the Channel Islands. And they were amazing way. We used to go over with groups of like 30 and they turned us loose on a weekend. We'd camp out, you know, in a barbara area. Yeah. But, you know, it wasn't that easy. I mean, we'd have 30 guys and maybe 10 of them would shoot goats, you know, and the other 20 would get experience.

And those things were wild as heck. And, you know, the guys that got it figured out and it made you use your brain, which is one thing we have for the reasoning is figuring out patterns and trails and wind and where they're going to go once they're pushed and where they feed and bed. And all those things, which is really a lot of, you know, figuring out animals is, you know, it's just like you guys scouting for the giant deer and, and, uh, Nevada or something where there aren't very many, but there's a few. And then you get competition with other people and you gotta, you gotta know all those things. And that's how it's putting the pieces of the puzzle together, whether you shoot a rifle, muzzleloader or a bow, you still have to, you know, put, find yourself, find where that animal's vulnerable and put yourself in a position to get a good shot. So, yeah.

So, well, you've been there doing that for a long time. If we, it's hard to, I guess, take home form. Some of the, some, everybody's kind of putting the final touches on maybe their bow, their setup, their form, their practice, things like that here for a lot of archery seasons. You know, we're not maybe talking some of the whitetail stuff that comes on later, but, you know, something, tips that you think people, they're listening here as they're, as they're tuning or, or practicing and using correct form. And maybe it's the release. What are, what are four or five things that you think are somewhat universal, somewhat universal? Yeah. Well, number one thing I would say, and then we do this all the time is people should learn a little bit, but what I've found is most people will make, get themselves in more trouble by trying to adjust their bows that don't do it all the time and have a

feel for it and know what they're doing. I'd say make an appointment with a, with a quality, you know, pro shop person that's in your area. And even if you have to drive a little ways to get to somebody that's confident, make an appointment that's good timing wise, not a Saturday, you know, two weeks before the season, that's not going to work for, you know, he's going to be slammed, but make an hour an appointment and be willing to pay the guy, you know, respect that part of it. And he's going to spend some time with you, look over your bow, check the timing on the cams. It's probably the one thing that, you know, you can't see and people shoot field points in there. I don't know what it is about people. They'll spend, you know, thousands of dollars and two weeks of their, their vacation and they don't want to practice with a broadhead that cost them 10 bucks and they can put new

blades in, you know, but in broadheads, you can shoot the heck out of your field points. And if your cams are slightly out of time, which can happen really easily, even if you have really good aftermarket, you know, strings, like we, we like to put America's best bow strings in them. But even your, you know, like your high end bows, like Matthews and Hoyt, the shock strings are pretty damn good, but they're not as good as the aftermarket and they can move around a little bit. And if your timing's off a little bit on one cam, you might not feel it. If it's just a little bit, it'll, it'll make your fixed blade broadheads impact higher low or left or right slightly depending on if the timing's off a little. So little tweaks like that, that, that a, that a pro shop guy is going to get you check your timing, make sure, you know, you shouldn't, you know, broadheads are shooting good.

Make sure you practice with your fixed, you know, whatever broadhead you're going to shoot. If you're going to shoot expandables, that's fine. Get a practice head or whatever, but make sure your bow's dialed in so that when you put that, you know, a range finder on the target and you set your pin for that distance or you shoot between your pins or whatever pin it is, you're going to fix that pin that you know that the arrow's going to go there and it's not out of tune. And you're not surprised that it looks like it did a corkscrew or did something weird, you know, and then you're going to, even if you made a bad shot, you're going to blame it on the bow because you weren't a hundred percent confident mentally that it was set up right. So if it is set up right, you're going to make, execute the shot better probably.

And if you do miss one, you're probably not going to be as likely to miss the next shots because you're not, you're not going to blame it on the bow. Trust, be able to, be able to trust your equipment and know that if it's not shooting well, you know it's you, it's you and your, your, your, your leash, your breathing, dropping your bow arm, whatever, you know, and I was trying to tell my bull that. A professional, a good professional is going to be able to, if you spend an hour with them and pay them whatever they, they want, it's usually hardly anything, you know, we always archery industry, everybody gives everything away. But like say it's 75 bucks for an hour or something, you know, like what you would pay for a tennis pro or a golf pro. It's going to be worth it. And for him to, you know, go over your stuff and make sure your bow's tuned, look at your

form and better early than late, but it's better late than never. And, um, you know, a lot of times we, it can be right on with the field points and then the timings, you know, just a, you know, one twist on one cable on some of these bows can make a difference on whether, you know, it's, it's not high or low. If one cams advanced slightly more than the other and you can't feel that, but it'll show up in your broadhead flight, especially if you're shooting fixed blade at elk at 50 yards, you know, you want that thing dotted on so that you're not, you know, high or low. You want to put it right where it's supposed to be. And, and then you know that it's good, you're more likely to make a good shot. You know, you're not questioning yourself. Well, if you know your equipment's good and you take, you do these four practice sessions a week for, you know, a while.

There's nothing like that confidence. There's nothing like it. It's just whether they have a rifle or a bow, it just feels like everything's magnified because it's, there's so many, so many parts to make that arrow shoot a dart. I remember my first, my first, what I felt like was really, I was confident and it was set up right was a cyber tech. I don't know if you remember that, like the old cyber tech. Oh yeah. Hoyt. I mean, I don't know if it was good or bad or in between. You can tell me, but I mean. That's a big bow. Huh? Yeah. I've been selling, I've been selling bows since 1981. So I pretty much. Yeah. You probably remember. You can imagine. Yeah. So anyway, I'm telling you, I could shoot that thing 90 yards and back then, that was a long shot back then. I mean, we're talking about 2000. Hoyt has always engineered really good accuracy into all their bows and they've just, they've

changed with the demands and influences, if you want to call it influence from other manufacturers that have designs that have been popular, you know, you know, so they're, they're all shooting really good now. And, and they're actually, they're the consistencies with the limbs, the tunability, the width of the limb tips, the gambling, you know, all those things really equate into, you know, making a more consistent, you know, shooting machine. But I'd say the one thing that a lot of people overlook and they should do on any high end setup to keep it the same long-term, get us, get some good custom strings. And there's a lot of companies out there making, you know, custom strings. And, you know, I found it used to be winner's choice. And when they went back to Kentucky and got bought out there, the consistency went down

a little bit compared to when Mike Slinkert had them up in Oregon, but ABB, America's Best Bow Strings, they, they've got it down. They do, that's all they do. They have computers doing them. And there's, I mean, and if there is a problem and they make them, I get them strings in like five days. And if there's something wrong with them, no questions asked, they send in another pair the next day. You know, there's like, they get the tune length wrong because it was some weird obscure bow that it may be one of the cables that they had in their library was a quarter inch different than what this one actually needs because there was a different cam change in line that year with that company. And there's, there's stuff like that. That's difficult, but they do a good job. And once you get those things shot in, you don't need pee forever. Cams don't go out of time. Serving doesn't separate.

Your bow's consistent for forever or at least a couple of years depending on how much you shoot. Yeah. So when you got those things dialed, then when it comes to, I guess, some former technique tips that you think guys need to employ to try to, I mean, you know, what do you, I mean, again, this is a one size. Well, you need to shoot, you know, when I tell guys to you, like, say, say now you've got a bow, you've got shooting and you're shooting your back, you know, by yourself, you should shoot 3D targets, you know, shooting a 3D tournament is going to be the closest thing you're going to get to hunting. You're going to be wanting to score well. You're going to get one shot, you know, at a time. You're not shooting 50 in your backyard by yourself at a known distance maybe, or, you know, you're not with your peers and they're seeing where your arrows are going. So it puts pressure on you.

It also gets you to shoot at non-spot targets. If you're shooting a good 3D range, up and down hills, different distances, picking, you know, a spot on the animal that you should shoot it. You need to know mentally where the pin should be. And then pull through the shot, execute the shot, and then get you, you know, figure out whether you shot a good arrow or not. And that's going to improve and get close to, you know, as close as you're going to get to hunting. There is no substitute for hunting. I'd say, you know, like us out here, we hunt pigs. We'll go up Central Coast. We have wild pigs year-round. We start our guys on pig hunts. Once they've gotten shooting, they get 3D shooting. They go up and we have good ranches that have, you know, usually almost everybody gets an opportunity. It's free range. It's not that easy. But pigs are a lot easier to get on than deer.

And, you know, if you shoot a 150-pound meat sow, then it's a pretty cool animal. They make sausage out of it. They share it with their family. They're stoked. They're hooked on bow hunting. The other opportunities we have, we get guys over-the-counter deer in Arizona. There's some really good, you know, hunt opportunities there, December, January. And they can draw javelina tags in a lot of the units, you know. And a javelina is made for bow hunting, especially for a new guy. You know, you don't have to be quite as stealthy. You can make some mistakes. You've got to have the wind right. But, you know, you can get in on them. And they're usually 20, 30-yard shots, which most guys can make. And that's, they get the heart rate up. Just get the kills. Get these kills under your belt. Yeah, that's basically what you're saying.

Call a pro, good equipment, custom strings, shoot 3D, and then kill lots of stuff. Yeah, especially getting into it. Yeah. How to learn how to shoot your bow at an animal target and then an animal. And then, you know, it just builds on from there because experience is super important. And, you know, so blessed to be able to, you know, have those islands to get a crash course, you know. Oh, that would be a great place to turn. Yeah, all day long. You're stalking. We'd go all day long. And, you know, you're hiking up and down cliffs. I'd go off on the cliffs where nobody would go. I figured out that nobody would go down there. I'm just with all the big goats for hanging out because they get bothered. Yeah. So I'm hanging around. I had, you know, baseball catcher shin guards on the second time I went. Everybody was laughing at me because I got cactus in my legs the first time.

I'm like, screw that, you know. Those trails are all overgrown because, you know, there's just goats going through them. They weren't built for people. And then I'd go down in there and mix it up with them a little bit. And I was killing big goats. And they were guys just quitting laughing at me. They just started wearing their shin guards the next time. That'd be a great place to turn kids loose because Carter and I have been laughing. We've got a couple first-year bowhunters this year. Each of us have sons. And bless their hearts, they're gung-ho. But I don't think they understand how hard it is to kill. They're picking out deer off of trail camera pictures in the night. Deer that are only watering at night or whatever else or trails or whatever. And they're like, that's the buck I'm hunting. Oh, Ash is like, that's the buck I want. Sean, that's yours. Sean, that's yours.

And when the muzzleloader season comes, that's mine. And they don't just die. They don't just die with the bow. There's a lot of chasing. You've been out there. Of course, you've hunted a lot of mule deer. Mule deer is kind of on the brain right here in Utah with the kids. Yeah. It's one of my favorite things, too. It just is. Like you said, you've got to get a lot of experience. And there's something to that. I mean, you know. Yeah. And they're able to shoot under pressure. People don't. I tell them, like, hey, no matter what, I've raced motocross, played tennis, done all kinds of competitive stuff. And nothing is going to get you as excited as shooting a bow at a big animal. You can't even explain what happens to your body. Well, that hasn't happened. And I'm ready to see that, perhaps, this weekend. And I think that, and they, these, these, you can't describe it.

I mean, I remember the first deer I ever shot, I was 14. Opening day, I probably would have shot a doe. It was back when it was an either six in Utah. I was, it went from, the week before the hunt, it was four point only. The night before the hunt, all right, any buck. Opening morning, it was, if it was a brown, it was going to get shot at. And it was a forky, and I let one rip 44 yards with that Carol Brown, 44 yards with, like, a 45-pound bow. Pretty legit. They're lumen barrels. Arking, XX75 arking with a bare razor head. I mean, that thing had to be way front heavy on that. Oh, that was a, you know, that's a good setup back then. Anyway, yes. Well, what did you have to pick from, right? You know, not a lot. But anyway, just, we've come a long way. There's a lot of options. And you've got, we could talk for hours, and we'll probably have to have you back at some point, you know.

And do a podcast from a long-term planning standpoint. This is more, hey, archery's on everybody's mind right now. It's time to hit the field. A few things to take away from it. But there's places like you, you know, you're performing with archery to be able to call. Yeah, too. I mean, there's a fair amount of good shops in Utah. Most states have some, and sometimes you might not have one within, you know, there might be one that's a little further to drive to. And some guys you'll just mesh with better, you know, than others, too. But, yeah, there's no substitute for good information from somebody that knows what they're doing. And that's pretty much the only place you're going to find that is a pro shop. I think we're like five hours. Some guys might be good hunters. I think we're five hours from you. We're just going to pile in a bunch of guys and drive down to San Diego. Yeah.

Maybe if you're driving, five hours. Bring one of your stretch limo four-wheel drives that you guys own or whatever. No, no, no. No, but a power wagon or something will come down. So let's say a guy wants – Yeah, seven-hour drive. Let's say if a guy is within reasonable distance of view, per se. Or they fly in. You guys probably have fly-in customers that come in. Yeah, I've got some guys that fly in, too. Yeah, I've got a couple guys that drove in from kind of up in the Napa area. They've got some good shops up there, but just one of the guys wanted a left-handed Hoyt, and I had one and came down and took good care of him. And now he just comes to us all the time. Is he set up by appointment? I mean, can you take care of guys if they call? Yeah, yeah. If somebody like that, if they're going to come, I'm going to help them.

And then I'm going to make sure I have one of my best techs available, too. You know, I've got some really good technicians, and I want to make sure that, like, they come on a day that I can make them a priority for as much time as it takes to get them right. And usually shoot, if they're going to buy a bow or, like, this guy sends his bows down once a year or whatever to get new springs, he sends them ahead of time. I shoot them in because I'm left-handed now, and I can shoot either way. But I've got guys that are right-handed, too, that can shoot them in. And we'll shoot, you know, 20 arrows or so, make sure the timing's good, check the bullet hole. And then when he comes, he shoots another 30 or 40, and then we check the broadheads, and he leaves. And it's the same for if he doesn't rotate, the broadheads shoot good for a year.

Do you keep a file on him so, like, he can reorder arrows, say he wants the expensive arrows? Yeah, yeah, we do that. Yeah, we've got a really good computer program. And so I'll put exactly what arrow, what vein they like, what color, what kind of offset or helical, and what kind of inserts and point weight and length and all that stuff. And then, yeah, we can just ship them to them. A guy wants custom arrows, we make a really good custom arrow. And we do have all the different brands. You know, we do a lot of victory. We, you know, I think it's one of the best values in a quality arrow, and they make all the different, you know, diameters. And then we have East End, we've got Gold Tip, Carbon Express, and between all those, we carry some Black Eagle as well. But, yeah, I don't get too close-minded.

And I've got a ton of inventory, I mean, a ton of inventory, because I want to have all the choices for people. And, you know, we've got our favorites. But we, you know, we try to dial it to each customer, give them the best options. And some guys have got their mind made up. We've got those products in stock, too, and they can buy them. Do you have everything in stock, say, from, you know, expensive bows, you know, more economical bows for anybody of any size, height, weight, everything? So we've got $150 recurves up to carbon bows. But I've got, if you count, you know, just say compound bows, I've probably got $150 on the wall. If you go to performancearchery.net and we look at our Google page, I've got a tour there. You can go and look at the inside of the store. I've got, like, $150 bows on the wall. I've probably got another $100 in the back room. Perfect. Perfect.

I've got, you know, $50 to $75 recurves. I've got a gazillion dollars with arrows and components. And, you know, we've got a really nice store. And then I've got a 16-yard indoor range. So we have people come in. They can test their equipment. It's air-conditioned. It's clean. It's nice. Families come in, and we do beginner classes. Right now with the COVID thing, we've had to cut way back on the classes and stuff and do the social distancing and all that wonderful stuff. Just sneak them in. Just sneak them in. In California, you're probably not getting away. Where I get a super liberal governor, man, I want to be compliant. I don't want to get closed down. Shut down. How about protesters? Do you have anybody outside the shop giving you grief? No, they didn't come that close, you know. But we had a mile and a half up the street. They had their thing. They had their BLM deal going on.

So, yeah, I was down there with my AR and my HK40 just in case somebody wanted to come around. Fixed broadheads. Yeah, what about a fixed blade or a expandable? Giant expandable. Grim Reaper. I want to protect what I've dealt with. One of those turkey heads. Guillotine. The guillotine broadhead. All right. Come on over. Yeah, it's a shame because, you know, some people want to protest and some people turn it into a mess. Yeah. And that's, you know, the whole thing gets jumbled up together. It's one thing to be heard. It's another thing to loot people's problems. Yeah, I mean, I don't think anybody has a problem with protesting. But when it gets violent and you start burning people's businesses down that they rely on and something they built their whole life and then beat up people because they're a certain color or whatever, it's not right.

Well, I recently heard that, like, if it's a state of emergency, say the National Guard's called in, that now the insurance companies don't have to pay out because it wasn't, because it's a state of emergency or whatever. So anyway, you're having hard, these businesses could potentially have a hard time on collecting on insurance. Well, here's the other thing is people think that there's some of those liberal kids, they say, oh, we'll just burn it down. Don't try to save it. It's just the insurance companies will rebuild you and they'll pay you off anyway. But they don't realize that insurance rates are going to go through the roof. They're not going to insure certain businesses. And to open back up and get paid and all that stuff and rebuild your store, that doesn't just happen, like, next week. No, no. It ruins people's lives. It takes a long time.

Even if we don't have the, like, we're not product heavy in our particular business. But it just takes a long time. The processes, everything, it just takes a long time to get things smooth and fluid. Computer information. Yeah. All your computer stuff. Yeah. I mean, you can download it in the cloud and everything, but still, all the stuff you have files you have there. But, yeah, I mean, it's isolated, you know, and hopefully San Diego hasn't been too bad, even though, you know, certain areas, you know, they had a few cities that they burnt some stuff up. But it's been pretty, I'm in, like, an industrial area, and then I live at the beach. You know, I'm not in the city and stuff. So, you know, you've got to be conscious of it. But, yeah, that spooks me way more, the civil unrest than the virus thing.

You know, viruses, one thing, but people, the amount of people, young people that are angry and you think it's okay to break the law and not have anybody do anything about it, that's not right. Yeah. When do you get to escape some of that? What type of hunts do you got this year? What's your fall looking like? I may be a little bit different due to COVID stuff. Yeah, you know, I decided, you know, in fact, most of the hunts that I had, I like doing something, you know, like usually a Bucon moose or something, you know, like, I like getting away with that North Country. You know, sheep hunts have got so excessively expensive, you know. I've been, that's one of my favorite things is hunting, you know, mountain game. But I've got an elk and mule deer are pretty much my focus now that I've killed all 29.

So, I always do try to do a mule deer and an elk every year hunt and then in a really good place where I have a chance of killing, you know, high quality, you know, higher end, you know, score-wise type bulls, which is what turns me on now. But the, yeah, I usually have some type of hunt. Like last year, I went to Africa. The year before, I did Spain, you know, for Ibex. I like hunting mountain game. I did two years in a row back-to-back. I did a great ocebos, Bex in Spain. I got a really good outfitter there. And that's pro bowhunting, which is hard to find. I hunted with Adrian Perl, which is one of the best hunters around, period, a bowhunter anywhere. But he happens to live in Spain. Hunted with him. And then he was buddies with Jason Harrison. Jason was a good buddy of mine. Worked in my store when he was like 14, you know. And, yeah, it was a shame.

He was like a little brother to me. Crazy. Yeah, I know, man. I was so sad. He was like a little brother. But, yeah, hunted Spain for Ibex with Pedro. And then the next year, I went for the other Ibex with Chidi. They have four different species. So I kind of was going to do the other. They have a Southwest and a Ronda, which I haven't done. I kind of like to have goals and just something to look forward to. Because if you don't plan hunts, which is what you guys are all about, they don't just happen, you know. Right. And they definitely don't happen if you're going to go to faraway places and do your dream hunts. And, you know, a lot of people get caught up in life and have responsibilities, which are important. But you can also, you know, plan something fun and have a good quality of life.

And it makes all the mundane, everyday, stressful stuff that we have to deal with a lot easier to deal with when you have a good hunt coming up. Yeah, that's right. Well, Mule Deer and Elk, then. Well, we'll be looking forward to seeing big bulls, big bulls. And if you see a big buck, give me a holler. Yeah, I'm going to Arizona. Actually, Wallapai have been on their list for a while, and they had a cancellation this year. So somebody didn't want to hunt. There you go. Yeah, so I'm going to Wallapai, and they've got some pretty dang good upper end bulls. Oh, yeah. Especially a year like this year. Yeah, and so it's like, you know, I get a little hunt fund, you know, sponsor this or that, save up. And I put it on. I'm not doing as many hunts as I used to, but I'm trying to do really good quality ones. Yeah, and I hunt with Alex Nestor in the Eastern Plains.

He's got some really good deal deer out there. That seems to be a good place to kill really big bucks. And I hunted with Jeremy Fiscus over the years and killed some really good deer with him, including a 226 one year. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not like the most spectacular country to hunt. Like everybody wants to go up in the high country and do all that. I'm super busy here then, but there's some big deer there. They grow big deer in a lot of different places. Yeah, yeah. They limit the rifle tags. They don't win or kill. They don't have too much, you know, predator problems, maybe coyotes on the fawns. And they have good genetics and they have plenty of feed and it gets to be some big deer, so it makes it fun. On your website under performancearchery.net, I just go, I'm kind of looking at about us and I hit you. Yeah. Up comes a deer.

Tell me, like, that looks like Eastern Plains stuff to me. Yeah, it does. Or Kansas or something. Yeah, it's probably Eastern Plains. Big old four. Nice. Big four. Nice sunset picture. Yeah. You're shooting a Definer. Do you remember that? You probably remember the bow more than the deer. Yeah. Oh, that one, I'm not sure which picture it is. But if it's a carbon defiant, that's one I shot. That was more like just a big four with a little crabby on one side. Yeah, it's got a little inline split on the top of his right. Yeah, that one, that was a nice buck. That was, yeah, a good looking deer. It was a pretty picture. It's funny because that picture, like, you know, we're talking about, you know, like Randy Elmer, he's been a good friend of mine. And I've looked up to him for, like, everybody else has for years and talked to him and stuff. But they had Hoyt tagged out.

You know, they had that picture. And he had a big giant buck that he killed up in the strip. And he, you know, of course, being a little competitive like he is and like pretty much all of us are. Like he had, I don't remember what it was, like maybe 7,000 likes or whatever. Mine had 10,000 plus. And I'm like, hey, Randy, I know, you know, I noticed that my deer. Likes aren't a big deal. But, hey, just saying. Yeah, whatever it was or views or whatever they do in blacks. And he's like, I noticed that, you know, that my deer, you know, got way more than yours. It must be because I'm better looking than you. Not because, you know, it's a bigger deer because yours is bigger. The sunset, too. Giving him a little stab. Size doesn't always matter, Randy. Size doesn't always matter. I don't have anything over him and probably not even looks either, but I just like giving some shit.

But, yeah, he's quite a good dude and obviously very skilled and a good representative of the sport. And the fact that he's able to cross over with that kind of shooting. But I've also been in some hunts with him. And his persistence and how hard he works and how good a shape he's in and how relentless he is is one of the reasons, too. I mean, that's a key element in bow hunting, I think, is not giving up and just like, okay, today's not good, but tomorrow's going to be better and staying positive. Some of my best hunts, like my sheep, my stone sheep, I shot 20th day of a 14-day hunt, stayed longer. The outfitter worked with me. This was a long time ago when stone sheep were like $9,000. And I think I paid $4,500. Now they're $45 million or something. And they're harder than heck to kill with a bow. And I did a no-range founder with fingers and aluminum arrows at like a gazillion yards.

Wow.

And then, yeah. So, yeah, that's that. And my grizzly that I shot, mountain grizzly, I think I was 15th day of a 14-day hunt. You know, I got the guy to give me one more day. He was picking some guys up that day. And he gave me that warning. And I went out, you know, it was raining and foggy and cleared up. And we went to this one log cut where we'd seen some sign. And I'd shot a black bear the night before. We were going to go pick up the black bear. It was down in this hole. And we stopped and went down that road. And it was first thing in the morning. It was a big hole boar kind of down in this little, you know, grassy area. And I snuck up and got as close as I could get. It was 78 yards. And I'm right, you know, quartering away one end of the other. 15th day. So, some of those things you don't quit until the end. And if you can extend a day or two, sometimes it pays off.

Well, bow hunting, that's required. And that's what we're going to bring it back to our kids. I think they think they're going to kill a deer by 9.30 opening day and be on the lake, you know, wakeboarding that evening. Well, you guys make it look easy because you're so consistent on big stuff. A lot of people don't realize the work and knowledge that went in to make that happen. It's the same thing with what you're talking about with Randy's photos. And you just, you know, those just don't happen. They see the end results. Those don't happen. 20 days into it. And Randy's done the same thing. He spent 30 days in Nevada at times. I mean, it's just, that's the way times it goes down. So, that's bow hunting. Well, we want to thank you for coming on the podcast. I do want to throw just a little plug out there, performancearchery.net. Bobby Fromm, we really appreciate you.

Number there is 858-653-5945. Of course, people are going to want to visit with you. You're going to be busy. I don't know. You probably do take calls. Yeah. Yeah, I do. Some people like to do the Instagram thing, too. I've been doing that for a couple years. So, I think it's Bob underscore from. And Instagram, sometimes they can communicate that way if they want to leave a message, and I'll get back to them. Great. Yeah, sounds good. Maybe they can hit you up. Man, again. Yeah, increase my followers from three to four or five. You know, that'd be nice. Yeah, well, we'll double them. We'll double them from five to ten. I didn't realize I wasn't following you. I'm now following you. So, there you go. Spell it out. For some reason, I thought I was following you. Spell it out, Jason. It's Bob, B-O-B underscore from F-R-O-M-M-E, performancearchery.net. Again, 858-653-5945.

I'm telling you, again, this is a very enlightening podcast, and I think Brownson and I are going to be your first customers coming off this podcast. Well, when it gets winter and we're wanting to get out of it, and San Diego sounds better than southern Utah in the snowstorm, that's where we're going to come. We're going to tell you right now. Your largest inventory. I'm sitting up here. I've got this second story. Like, I'm pretty lucky. I bought a small crappy house in a really good neighborhood 20 years ago and remodeled it, and it's close to the water. I've got a second story with an ocean view kind of guest suite. And you guys are welcome to come up here. And it's kind of like where I have my guests come, and it's got its own independent bathroom, shower, deck. Perfect. Perfect. Where's Adam going to sleep? Far, whatever. Yeah.

I don't know how maybe your wives might want to come, too. We can accommodate that. I know you and Adam make a nice couple. Yeah, we do at times. Sometimes we hit the road and do some of these rifle shoots and different things. We're definitely going to come your way. We don't surf much. No. Yeah, good. Never done that. Not much water in Utah. Ding my boards up. It's pretty funny because it seems like everybody is super stoked about the surfing, right? I do all these other sports, but the surfing gets a lot of attention. And it's a pretty cool – it's an amazing sport, and I love the ocean. It's about as close – you're immersed in nature with the waves. They're all a little different. It's very physical to judge them and get into the wave and stand up, do it balance, and then reading them, they're all different.

Surfing is a pretty unique sport that's really – it's similar to hunting but different. But you're still immersed in nature, and it's really kind of relaxing and super physical as far as – from a paddling standpoint, it's really a good workout for your upper body. That's awesome. Hey, guys. Appreciate it. Welcome to come. Let me know if we'll find a good time. Good luck this year on your house. Yeah, bring your bows, and I'll tell you – Tell you what we're doing now. I'm thinking starting from scratch. Yeah, Jason wants to do left-handed. I'm going to stick to right, though. I want one of each. I want one of each. And, you know, I was thinking, he's just throwing out this left-hand thing because you can get everybody to buy another bow. Well, Bob, are you guilty? Yeah. Hey, that start from scratch, it's a hit-the-reset button. Here we go. Maybe we'll try. It's going to work.

I'm telling you. I'm thinking we need to do it. Yeah, so if you're having panic, you know, target panic, a lot of guys just quit, right, and they start shooting a crossbow or a muzzleloader or whatever. I see them not come in for a while, and they've got a long-range rifle. Or change the release. They go from a trigger release to something different. A thumb, but they do the same thing with the thumb. They'll buy a, you know, like John Dudley's a good buddy of mine, and he's done a lot for the sport for information, and he's a great dude, and he's got an amazing amount of knowledge. But if you go and watch his video and buy one of his releases, some guys will get it if they have somebody work with them and they have some knowledge, but most guys won't. I see a lot of guys come in with them, and they think it's going to be a cure-all that,

you know, we need to work with them on how to actually, the technical part of what they need to do with their body. And a lot of times what they see on the screen is not how they're not able to apply it, you know, physically. And that's where hands-on comes in. And once you get somebody like that and you tell them some key points, then we can do stuff, you know, Skype or FaceTime or whatever else, you know, all those wonderful newfangled ways of communicating. Yeah. Zoom. Okay. Sounds good. Well, maybe this winter we'll definitely be staying at your place and buying some boats. Yeah. Yeah, well, even if you don't buy them, I know you guys get everything for free. We don't. So long you're not going to start selling them, you know, for discounts on your tier members like all your orthoptics and everything else. We pay for stuff. If you get it for free, it's usually more expensive.

You know what I mean? Yeah. I'll help you guys regardless. You guys have helped me plenty of times. Well. I make good decisions on hunts, so I value that friendship and knowledge. Well, all right. All right. You'll hear from us. Thanks again, Bob. Good luck this year. All right, guys. All right. Keep up good work. See you. I bet you. Thank you. It's one of those fields, like maybe long-range shooting, you can break it apart piece by piece and do a whole podcast on. Well, I spent an hour and 10 or 15 minutes to learn that I just need to drive down there and pick up a new boat. And shoot left-handed. And I want perfect arrows, perfect broadheads, perfect equipment, and then it all to be my fault if I miss. Me personally, the shooter. The equipment, I want to be perfect. But tell me I'm wrong. You feel that way, don't you? Well, whether it's your optics, we want perfect glass.

So if it's there and he's on his feet, I want to be able to see it. A rifle, the load, the bullet, my rangefinder, the dope you're plugging into your rangefinder, everything. I can trust it. So if I miss this shot, it's me. One last thing. I know this has been forever. But what if we... So Jeff Johns had an archery antelope tech. Oh, yeah. Perfect. What if we just see how his archery hunt's going? Real quick. Is he out there right now? He has been. I think he's been working on a house. Finishing up a house, trying to kill an antelope. It's definitely not been a smash and grab antelope punt. It has not been a smash and grab. He has chased him. Nevada. They've been chased. They squared off, and they're doing 40 down the road. And I mean, I think they got within archery range. Let's just bend his ear for quick 10 seconds. See what he's got going on. Truck chasing or sticking string.

What's going on, man? Well, I'm just wondering about how it's going hunting those truck chasers. Are you in an antelope blind right now? Please don't tell me I'm on the podcast. Well, we were just saying it's archery hunt. We just had a good friend of ours on the podcast talking about archery gear. You've had some amazing experiences in Nevada. And we were just wondering how it was going. How was it going? Knocking down a truck chaser with sticking string. You know, I'm just sick about it because the beauty and horror of social media is that you get to see everybody it's a success and revel in your own defeat, which has been quite the experience. It's hard. It's hard. Opening day, it's hard to watch all the kills out there. That's what you're saying. Yeah. And realize the struggles you've had and that you're the only one that's struggling.

You're the only one in the world that can't kill something opening day. That's what you feel like. I tell you, when you're laying in an alkali flat out in the middle of the desert of Nevada, thinking about these things, it's mentally taxing. You're refreshing your Instagram in an alkali flat, licking dust, wondering how much longer you've got a belly call. What camel pattern works best in an alkali flat, Jay? Hey, you know what? I will say, this Ridge Reaper camel, if you look at the gray tone in it, it is the exact color of Nevada alkali flat. They took it from that exact pallet. It's quite amazing. So back to the hunt. I mean, I know you chased one down, or at least your boy did, right? Didn't chase one down? He decided to run alongside the truck. Yeah. You know, the biggest mistake you can make is getting out of the truck sometimes, I swear.

But anyway, as they're well documented on the Epic Outdoors podcast, they are truck chasers. They try to beat you. They have in their mind where they want to be, and you're not going to turn them. You cannot change an antelope's mind on the direction that he's heading. It's quite amazing. What about... My experience to witness yourself. So what about the close encounters? Give us the top one or two close encounters. The quick and dirty. 30 seconds. Okay. So, yeah. Sitting out in the field at the edge of an alfalfa field. They're going in and out of the fence at just one or two key spots. I picked the wrong one several times. But a couple times I picked almost the right one. And had a shot at, you know, actually, Nevada's got some stud bucks. I mean, like, I'm not saying they're giants, but pretty nice bucks. Sitting there. Of course, there's hardly any cover. You're camoed up.

Dug in as best I could.

Got up. The buck was heading toward this spot. My wind was bad. I knew I had to make some kind of quick reaction. Set up. But just got a little excited. Sent one right over his back. Just was not patient enough with my range finder. I should have ranged him again. And I sailed it, man. Sailed it. But I will say, like I said in the one, I don't know, story or whatever it is on Instagram.

Dude, you have got to have, you've got to have these early season. And I'm sure all brands make them, but, you know, UA's early season, that ISO chill shirt with the hood. When you're laying in an Alkali flat, you have no idea how wonderful a hood is. From what? To keep the sun off you? I thought it was a what. To keep the sun off you, man. Oh, sun. Just to keep the sun off your skin. It is a big deal. It's a big deal. Have you thought about sitting water in a blind or have you done any of that? Well, they're going into pivots, so. They get all the water they need. They get all the water they need. Dripping droplets on every leaf of alfalfa. Yep. So, interesting. You've had some interesting hunt techniques, you know.

Anyway. Hey, we're not going to talk about ethics here, are we? No. No, I didn't say anything. It's just that, yeah, you're trying to sneak up on an antelope with no cover higher than three inches. Good luck with that. Interesting techniques. And any antelope is a trophy. With a bow. Yeah, I feel that way, you know. You get done and you're like, these antelope see you on the dirt road, 1,200 yards away. You pull off the dirt road and you've got 200 sets of eyes staring you down. Like, ooh, what's he going to do? What's he doing? Because if you don't go down there in a tractor or a four-wheeler, like you're a farmer with tools banging off the back, you're busted. So, let me guess, you've got a John Deere for this next day. Are you going to rent a tractor? It would probably be a good idea. Do it. How much does an antelope mean to you, Jeff? We're about to find out.

Does it mean to drag a tractor from Utah to the middle of nowhere, Nevada? Hey, I don't know. And maybe that mini-X you got or something like that. A mini? Yeah. Maybe they don't know the difference, do they? Yeah, take your plumbing mini-X and just act like you're putting in a new pivot pipeline. I don't know. Just play the game. Two miles an hour, just... Yeah, play the game. Play their game. Two miles an hour, that's perfect. That's perfect. Two miles an hour for something that can run 55. Is that considered a motorized vehicle? If you shot from a mini-X, would that be bad? Yeah, that would be bad. I've heard some of these guys in Idaho shooting from a pivot and they got nailed. Come on, because it has an engine on it? Well, because it's got a motor and it moves. Oh, my. But they seriously were sitting in a pivot and just... That's slightly a stretch. Good.

Well, Jeff, give it one more. So just let me go ahead and turn this back on you guys. Are you excited for tomorrow? Well, yeah. We got kids and we don't even know when we're hunting for ourselves, but we got kids that think that something's going to be dead by 8.30 and then they're wondering what they're going to do with the rest of their day. It's Saturday, though, right? Yeah, Saturday. Today's Friday. No, no. Today's Thursday. So that's tomorrow. We know what you meant, Jeff. Yeah, it's fun. I'd love to see kids stick a buck. It's fun. It is fun. Ashley is more excited than anyone. And she's not even hunting. She's just fired up to help Sean Glass. She was disgusted. We didn't have our blinds set up 14 days ago. I mean, geez. She's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Heaven help us if women ever really got into, you know, if all of our family ladies got into hunting because they might show us up.

Yeah. Their dedication to certain details is better than. Just having four kids involved is going to break a guy. Between the, they all need optics. They all need backpacks. They all, you just don't. Gearing up yourself is one thing. Gearing up the entire family is something else. Well, luckily we know somebody that can manage that, huh? Yeah. That's right. That's right. All right, Jeff. All right, man. Good luck with the home stretch. And we want to break the news when an arrow collides with a buck. Yeah. Give us a holler. There you go. We're going to have you on a podcast at the kill site. All right. All right. Sounds good, man. All right. Talk to you later. Be good, guys. Yeah. Bye. There you have it, Carter. That's it. It's a long one today, but we're, hopefully it makes up for, you know, a good long weekend of. Good luck to everybody. Smashing and grabbing. Good luck to the Utah.

We want your stories. We want your stories. Send stories and photos at EpicOutdoors.com or Jason or Adam at EpicOutdoors.com. We want to see your successes. Best of luck to you all. Going to start happening fast here. Good luck to everybody.