EP 179: A 185" Dall Sheep with Dan Montgomery and Hank Flatow

uh 15 and a half 15 and a quarter bases on a doll sheep that he's the biggest bodied sheep that that i had ever seen i've literally seen the two guys from the mountains take growing tough men and chew them up and spit them out anything to do with western big game welcome to the epic outdoors podcast powered by underarmor hey everybody adam bronson here at the epic outdoors podcast uh brought to you today by underarmor appreciate them sponsoring everything we do here and being our podcast sponsor title sponsor for that uh today we've got a a cool couple of guests i want to give a call we have uh have news of a giant doll sheep that's that's that's hit the ground up in alaska and uh with alaska trophy adventures dan montgomery hank flato and uh want to give them a call and talk about it this is not just your normal doll

sheep you'll find out some of the details here in a minute so let's give them a call and let's discuss the specs on this giant doll sheep that the one for the ages that just hit the dirt hello is this dan this is hey it's adam how are you doing yes it is that's what it says you got you got you and hank there you got hank building something today yeah well appreciate you taking a few minutes today hopefully you're it's uh midday and it's sheep season in alaska so you must be in between hunts i caught you for a minute we are we are uh getting our uh our fourth hunter in at 6 30 tonight and walking in the field up eagle river tomorrow morning got another draw hunter to go huh well great yep yep well let me uh maybe before we dive into some new juicy news that you guys have for us about a big ram um why don't i just for maybe some of our listeners that don't maybe know

who you guys are a lot of people do you're very well known in the sheep hunting world but maybe for some of our listeners that that don't know dan montgomery and uh hank flato uh let's just have you guys take a couple of minutes each and uh maybe we'll start with you dan uh how give us a little bit about your background how long you've been outfitting and guiding there in that chugach country you're all of alaska i know you do bears in the peninsula in different places so tell us a little bit about yourself i started assistant guiding back in 85 over in the wrangles and uh and a little bit in the chugach and then uh in 93 i got my uh registered guide license and started my own business alaska trophy adventures and uh i uh a friend of mine showed me the chugach range back in 1990 and i fell in love with this rugged terrain and uh real inaccessible areas and stuff and i love the rocks i

like uh like to hunt up in that really steep stuff and and uh i feel like i'm one of the few guys that are real comfortable in that country and and those big rams were up in some of that country and i just fell in love with it and so it was the first area i signed up for when when i got my license in 93 and i've been guiding in the in the chugach ever since um when you say fell in love because i've never hunted in the chugach uh in the i don't know how long it's been a draw now has it been i don't know 10 or 15 years roughly maybe not quite that long but it's been uh 2008 was the first draw year okay so 12 or 12 or 13 years up above and then 14c has been draw for the last 35 years yeah so i've driven around it but if for you to fall in love with those mountains for anybody that hasn't seen the chugach mountains the word angry it kind of describes that mountain range there is nothing

roly-poly about it looks like they were just jutted up out of the earth i mean they are jagged and and angry mountains uh you know much like the rain goes and uh like i said i've always been really comfortable uh i was always outside as a kid and stuff but i've always been really comfortable crawling around the rocks i've never taken any mountaineering courses or something but i've taken several mountaineers sheep hunting and uh we took them in the country they said normally they wouldn't ever go in without roping up you know stuff but i've always been good at being able to see it and feel my way through it and and i feel like if a sheep is in that country i can get there yeah yeah and that's really i just fell in love with it because it was so rugged and so remote a lot of it that i knew i would pretty much have it to myself and that's what it's kind of panned out over the years and

it's certainly got a reputation that chugach has of being very rugged uh we took kevin small uh on a ram in 2016 uh we got a nice 43 and a half inch ram that made the book and and uh he's hunted all over the world including some of that very very intimidating tour country and stuff and he said he had never been in a country that rugged ever anywhere in the world so yeah it's i was you know and there's a lot of that you know the wranglers wrangles i guess maybe by alaska standards are probably the most similar looking i don't know i've not been in all the ranges up there but there's there they're not far from each other but they i don't know they must have been the same age or geology whatever they look somewhat similar the southern wrangles especially as you know over there is especially rugged and stuff in places and same thing those rams those big old rams tend to

have their sanctuaries up in there and and as soon as they uh they start hearing some airplane traffic or something you know they're approaching season they just crawl back up in those places and they're extremely hard to get to at times and and uh we kind of specialize in that over the years well what's what's amazing to me is you know you see a lot of sheep pitchers all over i don't know nwt yukon other parts of alaska of nice growing grassy mountains and feed everywhere and and when i've been to alaska at a couple different times in certain places i wonder these things must eat rocks because i literally don't see any green in some of this or anything and and there must be just enough and and i guess one ram can get by on just enough somewhere but that's always stood out to me in some of the very backs of some of those drainages they're just ice and rock and and they're sheep

and i don't know what they're eating but they're there yeah you uh if you crawl right up into that country the chugach is basically a coastal range and and uh and even down here in the lower part of it by anchorage and stuff you got green all the way up there's little pockets of grass and stuff all the way up clear up into the rocks and stuff and uh some of the the uh interior stuff up towards glen allen stuff is a little less than that but all of them are there's a lot of rain and there's just a little bit of grass and greens all the way up through it um you go over to the alaska range uh you know get up in the brooks range everything and there's a certain elevation in those mountains that are just sterile you get up you know at uh say 5 000 feet and above that it's just kind of sterile there is nothing growing up there but we're mild enough down here that uh even up high

uh there's always a little bit of greens and uh there was one time we uh we had uh spooked some rams and they went way up and they were at about 7 300 feet and we got up there in the fog and stuff and we watched one come out right in front of us and they were eating the big leafy black lichen right off the rocks that was the only thing up there and they were just uh scarfing that down like it was candy you know and so that was a little clue to me what they were doing up there and what they were eating on but it was all over the rocks up there and that's what they were eating up there well i know you do peninsula bears in the spring and later fall as well dan but uh i've i've pretty much known you since i've known you a couple decades or whatever as a sheep and goat guy in the chugach and

it sounds like that's pretty much where you're maybe first love as far as alaska is that'd be safe to say that would be very safe to say yeah i i've uh i've had a sheep for the first 11 years i was in alaska before i started my own business and stuff and uh and i just i just fell in love with it it's uh i i always equated it uh you know so you can get around good in the mountains it's kind of like hunting antelope in the mountains uh they aren't difficult to see they're white you don't have to glass for hours to try to pick them out of the landscape they're either there they aren't and uh i've always had the ability to run all over those mountains and and uh get wherever i need to go and i remember the first time i landed in sheep country uh we set up our camp we flew in with a friend from juno and we set up camp and i left camp at noon and uh and i got back at midnight

which is just as it was getting dark back you know in early august and uh i'd seen 68 rams and one full curl and several seven eights which were legal back then in 83 and and uh you know i went out the next day and saw 28 and there were seven of them were full curl and and it was just easy you know i could get around that country and and uh and uh yep it's just a thrill just i couldn't believe i was up there i didn't want to shoot anything i i had all these rams all over i wanted to look at every one of them before i actually went hunting yeah wow pretty special is it not i'm it's safe to say it's not quite like that today um numbers wise you know it uh it's it there's certainly where there's a lot of ranges uh chugaches we got really hurt in the last 15 years as far as amount of rams we have available to us and stuff now it's very very scattered and and uh you know it's uh nothing

like it was you know in the mid 90s and stuff it was a lot more sheep and and uh you could just go hunting through the mountains and expect to see you know you know uh probably 20 or 30 rams in a day you know and now we're we're quite a you know we're we're probably two-thirds of what we had you know uh less sheep than what we had back then so it certainly isn't that way anymore but uh with the dropper mitts and everything uh it's really reduced the pressure on them uh we're actually killing older rams uh and bigger rams than we did back when it was open you know before 2000 or now and it's mainly just a good thing overall that way but uh but certainly uh there's a lot of concern on my uh on everybody's behalf that's certainly on my behalf where we're going with this population in the future because of the there's just so many so few of them now that i just don't know if there's

enough recruitment into the population to to sustain it wow well that's that's scary stuff well hank are you on still there i want to get to know you there are listeners a little bit how are you doing today i'm doing great today uh thanks adam yeah well good tell me a little bit about i mean how you and dan got hooked up and you're a lower 48 guy uh montana based i think and when did you start going up there and how did all that begin i started 18 years ago uh working for dan uh i uh i bugged dan for a job um and uh he gave me a job back in moosheds one summer and uh i did pretty good at that sounds like and and he kept me busy busy doing that i did good enough job where he uh he gave me a job packing uh on a sheep hunt during sheep season i fell in love with it and uh um i just kept going from there

and and you know eventually got my guides or assistant guides license and and uh um i was pretty young i think i got my first hunt for dan when i was 23 years old and uh um absolutely fell in love with it and uh uh um i drop everything every august that i have going on to make sure i'm sheep hunting now yeah you're based in montana right and you go up there for a better part of two months and in the fall right yep that's correct yep so dan what i gotta ask so is your is your idea of of trying to see if some young kid's going to pass the test or not putting through packing moose sheds for a summer and see if you makes it is that is that your first step well certainly it was back in the day we i haven't done a lot of uh you know uh the moosheds kind of it's it's actually very very popular right now but it's

actually a little too popular that they uh that's a little harder to find them like we used to used to go out and and be able to fly around the airplane and spot sheds and uh you know we'd spend two or three weeks out up by fairbanks there in the in the late may and early june and we could pick up about four or five thousand pounds that long jeez i see this was a yeah this is a gig i see we're used to mule deer sheds and elk down here any money yeah yeah well i just had to joke yeah you get a young guy and here's a pack frame and and uh here's a here's a map of general locations where i think there are and we'll see here at dark and see how many can get back here type thing so no we didn't do that uh what we did was uh gave them an aircraft radio and i would get up in the air and i'd have three of those guys on the ground walking to different areas and then i would uh i would uh

give them a direction to start heading and uh and get them over there to where the moose antlers were and stuff and then i would fly one guy get him lined out on his next antler and then fly right over you know it's just within a half mile quarter mile and line the next one up and oh yeah yep and that's what i once i got a load or or we would pick them all up and pile them up and then start packing them back to a strip where i could get into gotcha well that's an interesting way to get your start hank so you've said uh when was your first sheep hunt was that was that first hunt 20 when you were 23 you said that was when you did your first first year i started was 21 uh i guided my first hunt uh which actually was a brown burn hunt when i was 23 and then when i was 24 is when i when i really started guiding my first uh guided my first sheep hunt um at the age of 24 so gotcha and uh

um the rest is history i was hooked and and uh um just been absolutely thrilled and and and very fortunate to be able to do what i love to do ever since then and look forward to it every year so how many years has that been that you've you've been doing the sheep then i'm trying to find out how old you are i guess that's another way okay i'm 38 years old and i've been doing it for i've been working for dan uh for 18 years gotcha so two years as a packer and i started guiding on my third year kind of on sheep hunts my third year and then and then the the during brown bear season in my third year i i uh i ended up guiding uh brown bear hunt geez dan he's not even 40 years old it's making me feel young you've got a got a keeper there he's done 18 years and he's not even 40 so yeah you must like it up there but well let's uh let's let's fast forward a little bit um i i guess

just to get into maybe the guts why we're maybe talking to each other today uh you guys uh you know it's what roughly what a week or 10 days into the sheep season here uh and uh we got word a few days after the opener that that you guys smashed just a just a tank of a ram and i wanted to get into that but i but i wanted to do it justice and talk about i guess this is a ram um that you guys had a little bit of history with uh and i guess i want to tee this up too this did happen to be um with with an auction hunter but which one thing i think is definitely worth pointing out in alaska is auction hunter can hunt anywhere but they don't get a start earlier than everybody else is that right they still can't start till august 10th correct that's correct they they uh they have to be uh hunting in an open area and uh every one of those open areas have at least one more permit holder

in them yeah that's right there's a couple dry areas you know and you could shoot them in a non-dry area but traditionally you know most of the auction hunters are taking place in 13 or 14 c you know 13 to your 14 c in the draw areas and uh the auction permit itself is for all that you guys draw areas yes gotcha that particular one and then there's the one the the separate tag that's auctioned off is for toke and it's the same thing and it's it's for the draw areas for coke gotcha well so yeah so in in this case this ram um and we'll just talk about it i mean this is a hundred 185 incher for you listeners wonder why are they calling about a dead shoot a dead doll sheep we're talking about 185 inch doll sheep i got him at one eight yeah i got him at 184 and 4h okay yeah you're talking net so you're right so gross 185 and 2 184 and 4 uh yep what what what a specimen uh i've seen

the pictures and it's something to behold but i guess we're talking about these drawer areas but what's unique about this is this is not from a dry area that this auction guy was the only guy that could hunt there or one draw hunter this is from an area that that has you know a couple you know a couple dozen tags a year or something like that if i'm not mistaken is that right that's correct it has 25 tags a year five of them are for non-residents 20 residents um this ram is 11 and a half years old he's been legal you know for the last uh three years you know and so uh you know it's a little bit of a surprise to to uh to how much he scored certainly uh we never put those that kind of mass on him you know where he uh where he ended up racking up that kind of a score but uh but he was a very very big loop on him very big loopy ram and and with a lot of mass and it makes his horn look a

little shorter and uh we just uh we knew he was we were looking at a good ram and it kind of depended on what kind of horn length he had but uh we really had no idea he was going to score up into the 180s so was it a couple years ago i think i was talking to you hank you guys it's seen this ram was it two years ago 2018 is that when you think you saw this ram yeah and anything that stood out to you about them or is it just another i mean you guys do live and guide in the area where arguably the biggest doll sheep in north america are at the moment but yep anything that you thought wow this is one to watch or is he just like just another really really good ram that we're going to need to kill in a year or two what what was your thoughts then versus maybe if you saw him in 19 and then versus all right let's fast forward to 2020 the the basis on him what was what our

carter i mean his weight overall weight but certainly the basis on it i holy cow look at the basis on him but he wasn't even really anywhere close to full curl then you know and so he immediately thought boy he's going to be a dandy in a couple years but uh and he was nine and he wasn't full curl he wasn't full curl i don't think he made full curl until this year yeah that's amazing and and and that's yeah and and with all that mass that makes him score so good and then being not full curl that's basically the only reason he was alive if uh if he had been uh some kind of a curly ram with 46 inch horns oh yeah uh he would have been dead three years ago there's lots of people that probably saw him that didn't realize you know what they were looking at including us what did you think two years ago i mean and i don't know if you had a you must have had a draw hunter in there this is an

area you guys normally hunt every year did you did he get the legitimate pass or did you have a what you thought was a better ram that year that you took um just yeah we uh we uh yeah we took uh you know we've taken a couple grams and in two years ago uh we had a big ram on the other side of of that area that uh that uh you know we didn't end up getting him but uh through circumstance but he ended up being 45 and a quarter went 175 and three quarters officially born and crockett so that one was obviously it jumped out at you like this is a absolute fantastic ram you know so that's what we were hunting then and then last year uh we just didn't take any pictures of him or anything but uh we were aware he was still there but he wasn't full curl did you want to you know put somebody in there and and then not having to be age legal you know yeah that's tough that's a

tough call and and talk about that hank hank or dan talk about i mean most people i mean the the alaska law is either eight years old or full curl to be legal or double broomed i guess which he was not but but the chew gats probably more than any other range and you guys correct me aren't those rams they have more of a tendency to be uh the low droopy curl and don't hit full curl at a at an age of you know more than maybe other ranges within alaska is that safer to say yes it's uh we've killed numerous rams that were 42 42 and a half that were barely full curl you know and what what about that like what about their is it because they're dropping so low dan but and then and and then starting to turn up but they just need more time to get you know past the nose so to speak or past the full circle

yeah it's uh you know like i said it's uh that's you know you'll look you're always you know looking at something that uh you know for a long time i never even considered looking at rams that weren't full curl you know and stuff and uh once we started to actually the ram population dropped and stuff there in in the mid 2000s that we started looking at some of them and they end up being 10 11 12 year old rams that were just shy of full curl but still had good mass and stuff so you know it was uh kind of kind of when you when you started doing that then it just kind of opened your eyes to some of that but this ram was so heavy that it just didn't make his horns look that long and uh i was just kind of shocked that he was actually uh we had him at 42 and seven eighths by 42 and five eighths and and with a 15 two inch basis and and uh and uh that kind of mass there isn't any ram that's

unbroomed in the book that has that kind of mass all the way through his horns where his last quarter is seven or an eighth you know and so we just never put that kind of number on we thought if he was if he was 38 he would go 168 if he was 40 he'd go 172 but then you start jumping up to 41 he's 174 40 42 and then he's 176 and then then you kick in another eight extra inches of mass so he's basically an inch bigger on every quarter than then you expect even a heavy ram to be and then there's eight inches right there and then they jumped you up to 174 yeah yeah just to run through 184 excuse me run through those real yeah 42 and five 42 and seven length the bases 14 to 14 and five first 15 15 15 to 15 five sorry first quarters 14 and four and 14 and six that's unbelievable and then halfway you're at 12 and six and 12 and five and i know there's a i would say 80 percent of

doll sheep killed are about 12 and a half to 13 and a half inches that basis i would say 80 percent over we'll just call north america and this this thing had that at halfway point and then both over seven inches um on the on the three quarter line uh unbelievable really so i mean i've i've never i mean i i looked a lot of sheep score sheets and i've never seen one like that um with with the with the thin horn really haven't and i know there's you know stone sheep that are like like that in some regard in bc that i've looked at at least uh score sheet wise but uh 15 and a half 15 and a quarter bases on a doll sheep that packs it you know incredibly well is gonna get sneaky big and like i said that that low drop and and i don't know that that ram kind of comes out and then comes forward i don't looks looks that

way in the picture i killed a ram that looks seems like a dink compared to this ram a couple years ago in alaska but and i remember my guide said hey you know when we get in on this thing before we just kill him we got to make sure he's legal and i remember looking at him and i'm thinking if that ram is not legal we are there's nothing we are here for because in my mind you know i don't ever have to you know hunting desert sheep that are always brooming um we never have to worry about krill or age you know you have uh you know you want an old ram you know we know what we're looking for but we don't have to look for those legal identifiers that you guys have anyway um long story short he had a i remember that about it because my ram came out and he pushes forward towards his face as opposed to start

coming up and that that extra length is kind of going out away from his head and not turning up and this ram resembled out to some extent and maybe is why he wasn't full krill till this year but i don't know just a freak yeah yeah i mean that's exactly yeah i've seen the pictures of your ram and it's exactly kind of what he does but he's even with all that mass it's even more pronounced but it looks shorter horn because of uh because of the mass but uh we killed one back in uh 2004 that uh that i knew wasn't full krill when we were going in there uh i'd seen him for the last five years and looked at him to his spot and scope several times and and i knew he wasn't full krill but i just felt like he had to be old yeah and uh we got in there and uh and he's nine years old and i couldn't count nine

but i could count eight over and over and over and over over again and i looked at him and literally counted rings for two hours and i was just sure he was but he was absolutely not full krill he ended up being 40 and two eights by uh by 14 and four eights and his last quarter was six and an eighth and he only ended up scoring 173 and six eights but i was terrified when we shot him you know because uh the guy said aren't you happy and i said yeah i'm happy but i'm gonna be a lot happier i get over there and count eight rings yeah i don't want the fishing you know and he's nine years old i like i don't want this i don't want 173 inch ram hanging in the fish and game office you know because they confiscate it you know i want you to i want you to be able to take it home that's what i'm here for yeah and and so that's

that's what you're you know you just have that kind of pressure on you out there and you're you know you're you're pretty you know i've looked at hundreds of them you know and so i was pretty sure what i was looking at you know and and certainly sure enough to to take him because i just knew that i'd seen him so long they had to be older you know but uh but they they just don't have that classic look you talk about 40 or 42 inch rams everybody thinks they're going to be coral and a quarter and stuff and and these rams in this two-gatch range just aren't always like that and this one particularly is nobody would have dreamed he was that big i don't think uh you know we we looked at him you know for for a couple days there through the spot and scope and we certainly realized he was heavy and stuff but uh and we figured he would probably make book but we had no

idea he was going to be this kind of ram you know and then you get up to him and and the mass on him it looks more like a bighorn you know it's just like holy cow yeah i suspect there'll be people when they see the pictures they'll be like wow that's that's what a 184 or five ram i wasn't expecting that you know and and it's because of the shape and the build and that um you know a lot of a lot of the doll sheep that people maybe the eye-popping doll sheep are those thin twisters that you know 43 and they're coming back on themselves so then our galley flare and this ram has none of that look at all um just a just a freak so yeah what uh tell let's talk a little bit about i guess your honey hunter the lucky hunter um you know you're there i mean he i mean i don't think he had the pressure to shoot a hundred uh 184 inch ram but um you had a few days to look look over some rams and and

this one obviously did it for you this year and um you felt he was he was in love and you one day hunt i guess you killed it opening day tell us a little bit about about the hunt itself well you know on on on the actual hunt you know we rely on dan's incredible eyes and and he knows he's watching these sheep grow up and and uh and you know we dan definitely felt like this was the best ram that you got to the shoe to go after and and so um you know the the governor's peg hunter he was just looking for uh the best ram we could put him on the great guy and and dan felt like this was the best ram and so yes we watched him and then and you know we we brought spy camp in and and then i climbed the hill the night before the opener and i took i took pictures of this ram through my spon scope at 1052 yards and and you know and you still look at those pictures and you still

you still don't think that he's what he is you know um um you know you go up there and we thought that yeah he's going to be right in that low 170 class and even leading into an opening morning um and uh you know opening morning was uh uh pouring rain and and and and windy and everything and it was just kind of the break we needed to to get up on that ram and it was in some really tough terrain to get up over the top of me he was in a in a good basin to where you couldn't come you know from the backside and get over the top of them and and uh so i knew that uh that going into it that we our best chance of probably killing that ram you know again you got 20 you got 25 tag holders in there of the five non-residents and the 20 residents and so you can have some pressure in there and and uh i knew we needed to probably try to get that ram killed pretty quick and um you just couldn't

approach it from up over the top so we use that that cold weather in the rain to our advantage and and got up early and we we uh looked for that ram i couldn't see him where he was the night before and and uh so i checked the next basin over couldn't find him there i went out to another point couldn't see him across the hillside so i went guy he's got to be there you know so we went back and uh i just kind of got that gut feeling that he's right up above us and and uh there's somewhere here and it's not the position as you know the sheep hunter you want to put yourself into looking from below but i snuck out and i i uh kept looking around snuck out another 10 feet another 10 feet and and uh um didn't see him and so i i was just kind of getting ready to kind of head back towards the hunter had left the hunter about oh about 50 60 yards behind me just there's one of

us going out and and uh all of a sudden ram walked out right in front of me and i was like oh boy you know there he is and and then the big one walked out he's 212 birds and you could definitely tell it was a big one was there two just two ramps there was actually three of them together okay and uh and then also there's three of them out so i'm i'm sitting there pinned down in the rock in the marine field um 212 yards from um you know biggest ram i've ever seen in my life which i again i didn't exactly know it either at that point but uh um you know and then the ram one ram fed in another ram fed in behind some rocks and and the big ram was out and facing away and and i was like i still want to screw this up so i kind of waited another ram fed out so you know when the other ram fed back in i just

you know the big ram was facing dead away from me and i just took off grabbed my hunter so he's right here 212 yards above us and and we crept out and and uh and i saw this rock it was angled the same pitch of the slope basically where he could put his gun on and we got out to that point and i pointed out to him and and then and he was very educated on it and and making sure that we had great communication on on the right ram because there was another really big ram with him a pretty big ram with him you know i'm looking back on it now anyways but uh um and make sure we're on the right ram and and lewis uh um he shot i think about 200 not 230 yards at that point and and uh and the ram uh hunched up and i said you got him hit good and and he walked in a little ram walked in behind him and told him not to shoot and then that little ram cleared and and uh made sure on the right ram again

he shot again and dumped him and we were pretty excited um obviously and then we walked walking up there um you know i you could see the ram's head looked like he was his head was 18 inches off the ground because how big that loop was on him and i i told my my so one one horn was on the ground and the other one was sticking up you know but they weren't yeah that's what you're saying wow you know and yes yep yep man he was laying on the side there and i told my uh young assistant guide impactor that you know mike gray that i said uh you ever seen that mike he goes i've never seen that before and he knows what he's looking at you know and how far are you out at this point we're about 60 70 yards away from at that point you know and uh and uh uh walk up there and and really the first thing that really stood out to me well obviously besides his horns was his body size i mean you knew

something that he's the biggest body cheap that that i had ever seen and just giant giant body on him and you start putting that together and you know that that uh you know a big animal is gonna hide his horns yeah they're gonna hide he's gonna hide his horns yeah yep you know and and then i i i knew i knew i still don't know what exactly 100 what we'd killed when i walked up if i knew it was the biggest ram i'd ever been a part of and and uh and i've seen some big rams on the ground and um we were pretty ecstatic and and he was just i mean there's a video that i hope never services to the internet that me walking in circles going crazy just because how excited i was who has does uh the hunter or mike have that who would we bribe to get that video who who has that um mike gray or backer and it has that video you know uh dan you make sure that that never gets uh put away in some vault

that's right yeah keep that that'll be a jewel someday to watch watch but uh yeah that's a hank's point is uh you know it uh it can't be stressed enough how big this ram was body-wise it just made everything look proportionate kind of when you knew that but until you actually walked up to and you really had no idea yeah i could tell that in the pictures the face and the head the the depth of the head from like the forehead to the bottom of the jaw you know what i'm talking about just the um the the blockiness of the head versus a slender you know some doll sheep frankly and can look kind of dainty slender face and slender nose and i know part of that is you know if you shoot sheep in in july or early august and in some of the canadian provinces they're not haired up quite as quite as good and that can be part of it but you know what i'm saying these these chugach rams

are just not that way they are stout they're oxes they're they're uh they're they're just built different so so yeah did you i have this i have this thing myself with with my thumbs and two of my fingers that if i walk up on a ram and you know it's that initial sometimes you can't wait to get there because you know exactly you know you just killed a giant other times you know you killed a really good ram and you don't know how good but you know he's really good and i'm talking desert sheep and some rocky mountain bighorn down here in lord 48 never a thin horn and and i've got you know two of my fingers and my thumbs when i make a circle it's it's dead on 15 inches and so if i walk up and i have an initial and if they don't touch i know i've got i know i've got something really good because i'm in we're in utah and you get a 15 inch plus desert sheep that's a really good ram it's a

very good desert sheep anyway and and uh you know rocky's generally if we kill one 15 and a half 16 plus but anyway if i got if i got space in there i i know immediately you got anything like that uh dan or hank there in this case hank where you walked up did you do an initial grab and was it just the whole the whole thing in your hands two horns or did you did you something had to click that this is a freak in your hands absolutely you know just looking at them you know you knew and then and then exactly the first thing just what you mentioned first thing i did is i and i i took both my hands around his bases and i and we we have about the same size hands i think adam and my fingers didn't touch and i went holy crap you know um i've seen a lot of bighorns on the ground and done the same thing the bighorns and that it really started hitting me and still i still couldn't fathom

those numbers of what he really was you know it just you're just going but that's exactly the first thing i did and then that and i and i i i knew i didn't um you know i i just absolutely knew at that point how big he was and and i i threw out a number uh out there on that video and did you yeah i did i was still what was the number do you or you have liberty to say what was the number i will tell you what that number was yeah i i looked at that ram and i just held those bases i said you guys we just killed a 178 to 180 type of ram i said this ram could go 180 you know and you cheated him he's way bigger than that exactly exactly you you still it's all she guides mind putting those type of numbers i mean still i haven't been around enough bighorns but just this is like more of a bighorn sheep than obviously anything else and you know if i had walked the bighorn done the

same thing i that's but my guess would have been this is probably uh maybe a 185 because you're used to that but you're not used to saying that on a dog sheep you just don't even think of it in your mind that's why you guys when you're seeing this ram and and he's not clearly full curl for a couple years so you're not just like smashing and killing because you're well let's see what he turns into um you never go in your mind to 15 plus well i'll bet he's got 15 plus bases you never would say i don't know what you guys nor is 14 and a half probably a number you guys govern yourselves at quite a bit i mean you've killed bigger but but is that a number that you're like if he's really heavy let's give him 14 and a half base is that is that a is that where you kind of put the ceiling yeah that's good that's just what i was giving him i was giving him if he was

14 and a half and then if he's 13 and a half on his next quarter then if he was 11 and a half that's even big but 11 for sure and then if he was six and a half you know like i said i was giving him at 38 he was going to be 168 you know and they just kept growing from there you know but giving him that extra inch on every quarter was not even in my mind no what uh so after you took a bunch of pictures you took some video that is sometime might make a lot of money on youtube it sounds like but um after all of that was done did you have to spend the night there i don't know what time of day it was or did you get him back to a spike camp that night and dan when did you get a when did you get a get your hands on him well hank called me and he he called me right after they got to the ram and and he said we killed him at 11 11 a.m okay so they had him before noon and then uh i flew in the

next morning early and hiked in and met him on the way out and i got to pack him for the last two miles off the mountain did you uh you had to get him out and and fondle him you didn't just you know pack the pack you had to get him off the pack you weren't going to say well i'll see what yeah you had to at least get him out and carried him off the mountain you know yeah well what was your initial what was your initial wow because now and i don't know how it is for me when i kill the big ram down here when you get them off the body especially if they're on a big bodied rocky that kind of gobbles them up and you just got a skull in your hands of just a skull the jaw is off usually lower jaw i love that impressive here's this is your this is what this guy carried around um and so that's what you would have got the first time what was your impression dan when you grabbed when i uh hank

had him in his pack and he took him out and and i've got my hands on him and that's the first thing it jumped out of the edge is just how massive this thing is you know uh you just you just never felt a doll sheep like that in your hands even a heavy one didn't feel like that it's just like so overblown it was just really incredible you know and and uh you know just a different kind of a animal all together uh we've got a couple other rams that are that are almost 40 inches uh that score 162 and 163 and a half and uh you you put those horns next to them right now and it looks like a different species yeah and that's he's just so much more and the horns weigh 10 pounds more than those other 10 pounds what did yeah this did you weigh the skull with all the meat removed from us with all the meat removed from his skull and the brain out of him he still goes 27 and a half pounds

wow doll shit unbelievable well i assume are you gonna well this is assuming i don't i well i don't think we're gonna have a sheep show this year i've been hearing that rumbling so i've heard it's canceled yeah so i was gonna say i'll see him at the sheep show but i i guess we won't i don't but you got to bring him the next year something or we got to get replicas or something because he's probably gonna want a hunter's gonna want him mounted at some point but yeah i would love i would love to you usually have some replicas and i'm looking forward because i think this is going to be one of those rams like i said the pitchers on that giant bodied sheep are not going to probably have as much wow factor as most people are expecting a ram of this magnitude to have but i think when they pick up the horns they're going to be in awe and and i i want to put into perspective

let's talk just for a minute about what we're talking about we're talking about a doll sheep that is i i guess top 10 top 5 or 10 ever and and you just don't kill mid 180s doll sheep anymore i i numbers wise not just in alaska but in most places provinces are not what they were back when they were you know in the 60s 70s and 80s when when you know things were just riper um this is like to liken it in the mule deer world this is like killing a 300 inch hard antlered mule deer or 375 or or sorry 475 or 485 elk this is something of that magnitude something that's just this doesn't even happen and i don't know if you guys i'm you you you are thin horn experts where in your mind i mean how long has it been since they've killed a ram let's just even say 180 plus or of this size yeah sure when you know i

don't you know looking at the at the book and stuff but uh but uh this ram uh sure when scott killed one that was 184 and and five eights back in 84 and uh that's uh the last ram of this kind of size that 36 years that's been entered in the book yeah wow yeah that's a unicorn that's what we're talking about here stuff that you know and and looking at that ram you know you're you're looking at the at the you know at the at the uh surewin scott ram you know and you're looking at 44 and seven eights by 47 you know and so he's just a you know it's just a you know a different kind of look all together you look at the the current boone and crockett record book and look at the the top 10 they got pictures of them here on the you know in the book and stuff and and there's nothing there's an old one that uh

that uh you know it was it's 182 that's broomed off on both ends real hard and stuff that was picked up in the keen eye that uh that in 69 that that has a lot of mass like that but uh he's broomed you yeah so it's gonna bunch up the gonna bunch up the mass measurements more than a long on on broomed ram you you mentioned something a minute ago and to you know your other rams this year i think said 162 164 is that about right some way you said 162 and a half and one uh 163 and a half green score and those are they were they were 39 and a half and 39 and three quarters i mean these those are big sheep i mean those are sheep that 99 of people will shoot anytime they see them whenever opening day whatever and they most nine 99 of people probably should if you don't you've probably killed a bunch of doll sheep and you're looking for something

that maybe doesn't exist where you're hunting or or just hoping for something bigger you know what i mean that's yeah i mean what i told those hunters were that uh if every one of our clients killed a ram like this everybody would be happy yeah that's right that's what i mean that's the 99 you know yep and you said that this thing is 10 pounds heavier is that what you said 10 pounds yep that's unbelievable but well it's 20 inches of overall score i guess and so you got to get there and the mass is where that that's going to come from so well i imagine your hunters beyond thrilled i mean i i can't imagine that um uh you know there's these are one of those things that just happen to you both as a guide both as an outfitter as a hunter um obviously hard work preparation being in the right area you know having a great tag all those things have to come into play but these things just happen

there's you know there's freak human beings shaquille o'neils that are 350 pounds and seven foot two or whatever and we're we're what we are you know what i mean we're we're all people but some people aren't really people they're freaks you know but some of our athletes and you know things like that and this is one of those instances so uh that's pretty special so you're you're i don't know i don't know what you're going to do the rest of the year the rest of your lives i guess when it comes to trying to top that because you probably won't but you know that and but the fact that it happened once means it could happen again i guess that's the that's the other way to look at it yeah we uh we certainly aren't looking at topping that i don't think anybody you know that is rational would think that they could

go out and top that uh you know it's just not going to happen but uh but uh the fact that he could get this old and be that big in a in a fairly well hunted area you know that wasn't exclusively by any means you know it's a pretty amazing thing too i mean it just kind of shocks me and uh i i just uh you know you just say you just have no idea you know you can imagine what the tag would have went for if you could say well we got one we'll think of going to mid-80s you know that's you know i mean uh you just don't think that way but uh but we're certainly uh pleasantly pleased that uh that he is what he is and uh he's a great old ram i'm glad he got to be eight and i mean 11 and a half years old and that he uh he's got his genetics out in that herd uh it doesn't look like he did a lot of fighting i can imagine

you know like he's talking it's kind of like a shaquille o'neal going up against a featherweight you imagine hitting horns with that guy that guy probably was well you know he didn't have much competition it wanted to beat on him well yeah you look at these other rams you just talked about they're big they're 40 inchers and they're their horns are 10 just the horns themselves horns and skull are 10 pounds or 10 pounds difference not not to mention his body and everything else and all of the momentum and so it's pretty pretty easy to see that he could probably rule the show and one thing worth pointing out you know a book a book doll or stone is 170 inch net which in my opinion is one of those minimum scores anymore that probably is too high you know of all species i think the thin horn sheep are the ones that are too i mean a desert sheep is 168 a desert is lower and and i

don't really know where 168 came from but but i guess in utah i kind of like it because we don't kill giant giant sheep in utah but i have a chance to kill a book ram every year with some of my hunters if it if it breaks 168 but the 170 is really there's there's a lot of years you guys know this in north america there's years there isn't a book ram killed or entered i should say and maybe there's one killed and not scored somewhere but you know what i'm saying that's a rare there's not very many book sheep killed a year um you know a rocky mountain uh book ram is 180 so this thing's you know easily a book i mean we killed 182 inch rocky here in utah last year and i i i made a video probably like hanks when we did that but that was a rocky mountain bighorn he's supposed to be 182 you know uh so uh pretty rare

stuff i guess just to put everything like that in perspective so absolutely yeah well anything we left out about this i know it's you guys got to get to the mountain you got a hunter it sounds like you know you're flying in and hit you know he's flying in or whatever he's doing with with covid maybe talk about that just for 30 seconds is there any issues with there that your hunters coming in what what are they what are they doing i mean i know sheep season goat season's coming up what are you guys having to do just have a test within 72 hours dan that they present when they get get there yeah that's what they got in place now uh up till august 11th all you had to do was uh is have a test within 72 hours or be tested once you got here and then quarantine yourself until those results out but they they changed that on august 11th and now you have to have that test in hand and

and so far everything's you know there's it's just barely available out there there's some places that have a hard time getting that back to you or guaranteeing it but uh so far we've had no problems getting people in and and they've had their test and nobody's had positive or anything i did have a packer that has packed for me for three years that lives in juno and uh and he he came down with it uh about uh the 5th of august so so we uh we were short a packer to start the season right off the bat but i had another friend that uh that does goats down and and uh catch a can we got him up and stuff that uh gotcha but uh so far we haven't had any real issues and stuff we got uh got four boat hunters coming in here in late august to start the season on september 1st and a couple sheep hunters pretty lined up right now we haven't got any problems and uh there hasn't been any threat

of closing it down altogether or anything we certainly have more cases up here now but uh yeah so you you guys both going in on this one or hank or who's who's going on on this one you going back in well we're not sure actually as of right now i uh i'm certainly hoping to on that you know you talk about the the chugash being brutal and i i've i've literally seen the chugash rounds take growing tough men and chew them up and spit them out you know i have and and so on this hunt i've i've been doing it a while and and i i've had a bad knee well um my good knee um something happened on this last hunt and i'm not sure what's going on but it it swelled up and doubled in size and and i have now fluid drained out of my calf and my calves is really big and so i'm actually going to the doctor today at three o'clock and jeez and i gotta i gotta get to go ahead to to do this next

hunt so i'm i'm praying that uh um that the doctor says there's nothing serious and and that uh i can go on the hunt if not uh um dan's gonna add in we might both add in i'm not sure what's going on but dan will probably have it with me if if uh that's the case so well it was all the dancing that got his knee yeah i was gonna say it was uh probably was you know well hopefully that's something they can just drain off i don't know i've had one of those like that and they drained it a couple times and it went away i don't know probably took something they gave me prescribed me and it went away but hopefully that's all it is because you've got a bunch of goat hunters sounds like coming i know you've got a goat hunter in a different area down south it's going to be a real troublemaker this year later on for you i think so uh i've heard i've heard he uh you know ends up

wanting his guy to pack all of his stuff he's just one of those guys it's always just you're waiting hand and foot on him so i hope yeah i hope you hope you're up for it and your knee's better for that one so well i think my knee will be it's it's it's it's drained some today it's doing better today and uh um i'll be ready to go on that one it sounds like a better yeah for all you guys that don't know anything you know he'd be happy with the 12 inch billy so yeah i don't think that's all yeah and i yeah he wants his gear packed he wants you know nice nice weather not very many much rain and uh you know really good food and uh you know 11 and a half inch billy that's all he wants that's it it's pretty easy we're on we're on track for that right now adam so i think we'll see what happens just for your viewers to be perfectly clear the hunter is you adam that's

right that's me so yeah i i got lucky and drew a tag in southeast alaska you're gonna hunt the rainforest and catch again yeah i'll be hunting the jungle so anyway but uh yeah uh hank hank after he's done uh guiding for dan up there in the chugach he goes down and helps another outfitter down they're on some a little bit later season goat hunts so we should team up there knock on wood i've got my 72 hour you know people lined up you know it seems like they change stuff every day but i'll i get a good piece of paper i'll be there late september early october whenever you guys are hunting done hunting montana right you guys got a rocky to go kill lauren's got a rocky tag right lauren's got a rocky mountain tag in the brakes there so we're going to be down there in october so is it october is that when you're going to go or is it going to be yeah that's what with the

with all the the goat hunters and the moose and stuff it's just we got that bow hunter that starts on october 1st and trying to get down there and do something and get right back up here it's just tough to do pretty tight well that's a two and a half month season in montana and it is and uh then the rut comes on late october november anyway so well you guys have been great it sounds like we gotta let hank get to the doctor that's one thing and then i don't know dan you it sounds like you better get your pack pack you might be heading into the mountains tonight it's been back i'm ready to go so well alaska trophy adventures uh hank and dan we really appreciate your time today congratulations on incredible ram um we look forward to maybe later this next year showcasing some more of the details of of uh lewis's hunt in our epic outdoors magazine just wanted to get it

it's that time of the year when the hunts are starting down here the archery deer hunts but alaska things are underway with sheep and whatnot and of a ramble this magnitude and such great guys we wanted to call and kind of get it from the horse's mouth so we really appreciate you guys um taking a few minutes with with me today and our listeners i'm sure they'll enjoy it and look forward to seeing more of the details of this special special round that you guys were able to take for all of our listeners or anybody that's uh maybe interested in hunting one with you guys some point um it's not something you can just book a hunt for doll sheep the areas that you guide in 13d 14c subunits are a draw so why don't you talk just a little bit about that in the timeline um it's coming up here in december um and uh you know how they get a hold of you things like that okay yeah um the application

period for the draws is uh november 1st to to right around december 15th sometimes they run it a couple more days to the 17th but uh but you have to have a guide client agreement uh contract with the guide before you can apply um you know we uh we apply hunters through your service you know and uh and uh you know that application period is pretty long it's a month and a half and and uh the odds are in in some of the areas are are about one in 20 and some of them are as much as one in five it depends on what hunt you're in uh putting in for and what time of year and stuff but uh but there's some giant rams out there uh you know the rams we killed this year there's two 11 year olds and a 10 year old since we've been in the draw the last five or six years uh getting a lot more older rams and uh

just really good rams and uh you know we've averaged for the last seven years we've averaged uh 40 or better every year except for one year and then we averaged 39 and three quarters on our on our rams we've taken in particular year unbrewed rams so they're just really giant rams in this country and uh the genetics are still there and uh it's just a real opportunity if you uh if you want to get a a large doll sheep and uh and uh don't mind the rugged terrain and uh and uh you know hunting and you know it's certainly physical hunt uh but uh but you know you don't have to be an absolute animal to do it but it certainly helps to be in good physical shape and just have a real positive attitude and we can get just about everybody where they need to be well and that's i have a lot of people ask me here at epic outdoors about hey should i be playing the alaska doll sheep draw and i guess i

would just say to them yes but it depends if you are itching to go you have your money set aside you're in shape you want to go this year next year you should play the draw but you you probably need to have a contingency plan i i mean i don't know how many years i've applied with you you guys and uh you know i gotta have a contingency plan because i want to hunt sheep at some point in my life and and that's the reality of it but um for those those guys or ladies that draw their tags you got a special uh special special hunt wait i know we had one of our clients uh carol robertson she drew in 2019 took a an awesome ram with you guys i think it was just 168 or 9 right there official just a just a stomper and uh anyway some subtle differences within subunits as well um that that i think come application time you could call us here at epic outdoors or call dan and talk with them about

unit choices you can buy up to what i think is it six applications is that what you can pay for six per you you can uh apply up to six times six times and so you can do them all in one or you can put them in six different six different but it's a little bit different up here it's kind of like having a point uh a uh preference point system you know you get a little bonus uh being able to apply that many times and stuff i think it's just uh five bucks per entry if i'm not mistaken five dollars per application so buy your hunting license with a current hunting license yeah buy your hunting license and then you know thirty dollars you might as well do all six and and you're in the draw six times for whatever but you can help maybe pick a subunit for the clients too to help match match them you know if

they you know certainly i i i uh yeah i i you know quiz the clients on their physical abilities what they're looking for you know what kind of hunt they're looking for and stuff uh 14c is a lot of it is just uh hiking only some of that country is 20 miles in to get into where the sheep are and and uh 13d and all that country is all fly in uh you know i i know it like the back of my hand so there's a lot of places i can get up you know pretty remote on the glaciers and stuff that a lot of other people can't but uh but uh just kind of what what this particular hunter and what he's looking for and stuff so uh but there's a lot of opportunity out there's quite a few tags available and uh and like i said we're getting some really good old rams and that that always makes me happy i i hate killing eight year old

sheep i like killing something that's 10 or 11 or 12 yeah well that's great well we appreciate your time um you got a few months a few months to think it over i guess the the one thing about that they do get the draw results usually right about mid-february if i'm not mistaken so you still have quite a few months to plan but uh it's uh you know it's just foregone conclusion somebody's gonna draw you got your name in the hat again alaska doesn't have a point system get your name in the hat just a pure random draw and uh if you draw you're gonna have a special hunt so uh appreciate you guys again your time thanks again and uh good luck on your next hunt and stay safe thank you thank you adam yep you bet talk to you later take care bye now