EP 179: A 185" Dall Sheep with Dan Montgomery and Hank Flatow

A 15 and a half, 15 and a quarter bases on a doll sheep. That is the biggest bodied sheep that I had ever seen. I've literally seen the two guys from my mountains take grown tough men and chew them up and spit them out. Anything to do with western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Adam Bronson here at the Epic Outdoors Podcast, brought to you today by Under Armour. Appreciate them sponsoring everything we do here and being our podcast sponsor, title sponsor for that. Today, we've got a cool couple of guests I want to give a call. We have news of a giant doll sheep that's hit the ground up in Alaska, and with Alaska Trophy Adventures, Dan Montgomery, Hank Flato, and I want to give them a call and talk about it. This is not just your normal doll sheep. You'll find out some of the details here in a minute. So, let's give him a call, and let's discuss the specs on this giant doll sheep, one for the ages that just hit the dirt.

Hello? Is this Dan? This is. Hey, it's Adam. How are you doing? Yes, it is. That's what it says. You got you and Hank there, or you got Hank built and sent today? We are. We've got a phone phone. Yep. Well, appreciate you taking a few minutes today. Hopefully, it's midday, and it's sheep season. In Alaska, so you must be in between hunts. I caught you for a minute. We are getting our fourth hunter in at 630 tonight, and walking in the field up Eagle River tomorrow morning. Got another draw hunter to go, huh? Well, great. Yep, yep. Well, let me, maybe before we dive into some new juicy news that you guys have for us about a big ram, why don't I just, for maybe some of our listeners that don't maybe know who you guys are, a lot of people do.

You're very well known in the sheep hunting world, but maybe for some of our listeners that don't know Dan Montgomery and Hank Flato, let's just have you guys take a couple of minutes each, and maybe we'll start with you, Dan. Give us a little bit about your background, how long you've been outfitting and guiding there in that Chugach country. You're all of Alaska. I know you do bears in the peninsula in different places, so tell us a little bit about yourself. I started assistant guiding back in 85, over in the Wrangles and a little bit in the Chugach. And then, in 93, I got my registered guide license and started my own business, Alaska Trophy Adventures. And a friend of mine showed me the Chugach range back in 1990, and I fell in love with its rugged terrain and real inaccessible areas and stuff.

And I love the rocks. I like to hunt up in that really steep stuff, and I feel like I'm one of the few guys that are real comfortable in that country, and those big rams were up in some of that country, and I just fell in love with it. So, that was the first area I signed up for when I got my license in 93, and I've been guiding in the Chugach ever since. When you say fell in love, because I've never hunted in the Chugach, and I don't know how long it's been a draw now. Has it been, I don't know, 10 or 15 years, roughly? Maybe not quite that long, but... It's been, 2008 was the first draw year. Okay, so, 12 or 13 years. A couple above, and then 14C has been draw for the last 35 years. Yeah. So, I've driven around it, but for you to fall in love with those mountains, for anybody that hasn't seen the Chugach Mountains,

The word angry kind of describes that mountain range. There is nothing roly-poly about it. It looks like they were just jutted up out of the earth. I mean, they are jagged and angry mountains, you know, much like the Rangos. They are, and like I said, I've always been really comfortable. I was always outside as a kid and stuff, but I've always been really comfortable crawling around the rocks. I've never taken any mountaineering courses or something, but I've taken several mountaineers Sheep hunting, and we took them into the country. They said normally they wouldn't ever go in without roping up. You know, stuff. I've always been good at being able to see it and feel my way through it, and I feel like if a sheep is in that country, I can get there. Yeah.

Yeah, and I just fell in love with it because it was so rugged and so remote, a lot of it, that I knew I would pretty much have it to myself. And that's what has kind of panned out over the years. And it's certainly got a reputation that you get, Chav, of being very rugged. We took Kevin Small on a Ram in 2016. We got a nice 43-1⁄2-inch Ram that made the book. And he's hunted all over the world, including some of that very, very intimidating tour country and stuff. And he said he had never been in a country that rugged ever anywhere in the world. I was, you know... And there's a lot of that, you know. The Wrangles, I guess, maybe by Alaska standards, are probably the most similar looking. I don't know, I've not been in all the ranges up there, but they're not far from each other, but they, I don't know, they must have been the same age or geology or whatever. They look somewhat similar.

The southern Wrangles, especially, over there, is especially rugged and stuff in places. Same thing, those rams, those big old rams, tend to have their sanctuaries up in there, and as soon as they start hearing some airplane traffic or something, they just crawl back up in those places, and they're extremely hard to get to at times. We've kind of specialized in that over the years. Well, what's amazing to me is, you know, you see a lot of sheep pitchers all over, I don't know, NWT, Yukon, other parts of Alaska of nice, growing, grassy mountains and feet everywhere. And when I've been to Alaska a couple different times in certain places, I wonder, these things must eat rocks, because I literally don't see any green in some of this, anything.

And there must be just enough, and I guess one ram can get by on just enough somewhere, but that's always stood out to me in some of the very backs of some of those drainages. They're just ice and rock, and they're sheep, and I don't know what they're eating, but they're there. Yeah, if you crawl right up into that country, the Chugach is basically a coastal range, and even down here in the lower part of it by anchorage and stuff, you got green all the way up. There's little pockets of grass and stuff all the way up, clear up into the rocks and stuff. And some of the interior stuff up towards Glenallen and stuff is a little less than that. But all of them are, there's a lot of rain, and there's just a little bit of grass and greens all the way up through it. You go over to the Alaska Range, you know, get up in the Brooks Range and everything,

and there's a certain elevation in those mountains that are just sterile. You get up, you know, at say 5,000 feet and above that, it's just kind of sterile. There is nothing growing up there, but we're mild enough down here that even up high, there's always a little bit of greens. And there was one time we had spooked some rams, and they went way up, and they were at about 7,300 feet. And we got up there in the fog and stuff, and we watched one come out right in front of us, and they were eating the big, leafy, black lichen right off the rocks. That was the only thing up there, and they were just scarfing that down like it was candy. Uh-huh. And so, that was a little clue to me what they were doing up there and what they were eating on, but it was all over the rocks up there, and that's what they were eating up there.

Well, I know you do Peninsula Bears in the spring and later fall as well, Dan, but I've pretty much known you since I've known you a couple decades or whatever as a sheep and goat guy in the Chugach, and it sounds like that's pretty much where your maybe first love as far as Alaska is. That'd be safe to say? That would be very safe to say, yeah. I've hunted sheep for the first 11 years I was in Alaska before I started my own business and stuff, and I just fell in love with it. I always equated it, you know, so you can get around good in the mountains. It's kind of like hunting antelope in the mountains. They aren't difficult to see. They're white. You don't have to glass for hours to try to pick them out of the landscape. They're either there or they aren't. And I've always had the ability to run all over those mountains and get wherever I needed to go.

And I remember the first time I landed in sheep country, we set up our camp. We flew in with a friend from Juneau, and we set up camp. And I left camp at noon and got back at midnight, which is just as it was getting dark back in early August. And I'd seen 68 rams and one full curl and several 7-8s, which were legal back then in 1983. And, you know, I went out the next day and saw 28, and there were seven of them were full curl, and it was just easy, you know, to get around that country. And, yep, it was just a thrill. I couldn't believe I was up there. I didn't want to shoot anything. I had all these rams all over. I wanted to look at every one of them before I actually went hunting. Yeah, wow, pretty special. Is it safe to say it's not quite like that today, numbers-wise? Numbers-wise?

You know, there's certainly a lot of ranges. Chugach's, we got really hurt in the last 15 years as far as the amount of rams we have available to us and stuff. Now, it's very, very scattered, and it's nothing like it was in the mid-90s and stuff. There was a lot more sheep, and you could just go hunting through the mountains and expect to see probably 20 or 30 rams in a day. You know, and now we're probably two-thirds of what we had, you know, less sheep than what we had back then. So, it certainly isn't that way anymore, but with the draw permits and everything, it's really reduced the pressure on them. We're actually killing older rams and bigger rams than we did back when it was open, you know, before 2008. It's been a good thing overall that way, but certainly there's a lot of concern on everybody's behalf,

that's certainly on my behalf, where we're going with this population in the future. There are just so few of them now that I just don't know if there's enough recruitment into the population to sustain it. Wow. Well, that's scary stuff. Well, Hank, are you on still there? I want to get to know you, the listeners, a little bit. How are you doing today? I'm doing great today. Thanks, Adam. Yeah. Well, good. Tell me a little bit about, I mean, how you and Dan got hooked up, and you're a lower 48 guy, Montana-based, I think. And when did you start going up there, and how did all that begin? I started 18 years ago working for Dan. I bugged Dan for a job, and he gave me a job back in moose sheds one summer, and I did pretty good at that. That sounds like it.

And he kept me busy doing that. I did a good enough job where he gave me a job packing on a sheep hunt during sheep season, and I fell in love with it. And I just kept going from there, and eventually got my assistant guide's license. And I was pretty young. I think I got my first hunt for Dan when I was 23 years old, and I absolutely fell in love with it. And I drop everything every August that I have going on to make sure I'm sheep hunting now. Yeah, you're based in Montana, right? And you go up there for the better part of two months in the fall, right? Yep, that's correct. Yep. So, Dan, I've got to ask, so is your idea of trying to see if some young kid's going to pass the test or not, putting through packing moose sheds for a summer and see if he makes it? Is that your first step? Well, certainly it was back in the day. I haven't done a lot of, you know, the moose shed.

It's actually very, very popular right now, but it's actually a little too popular that it's a little harder to find them. Like, we used to go out and be able to fly around in an airplane and spot sheds, and we'd spend two or three weeks out up by Fairbanks there in late May and early June, and we could pick up about 4,000 or 5,000 pounds of them. Geez, I see. This is a gig. See, we're used to hunting mule deer sheds and elk down here. I don't have to make any money. Yeah. Well, I just had to joke, yeah, you get a young guy, and here's a pack frame, and here's a map of general locations where I think there are, and we'll see here at dark and see how many can get back here, type thing.

No, we didn't do that. What we did was gave him an aircraft radio, and I would get up in the air, and I'd have three of those guys on the ground walking to different areas. And then I would give them a direction to start heading and get them over there to where the moose antlers were and stuff. And then I would fly one guy, get him lined out on his next antler, and then fly right over. You know, it's just within a half mile, quarter mile, and line the next one up. Oh. Yep, yep. Once they got a load, or we would pick them all up and pile them up, and then start packing them back to a strip where I could get into. Gotcha. Well, that's an interesting way to get your start, Hank. So, you said, when was your first sheep hunt? Was that first hunt, when you were 23, you said? That was when you did your first sheep hunt? I started when I was 21.

I guided my first hunt, which actually was a brown bird hunt when I was 23, and then when I was 24 is when I really started guiding my first sheep hunt at the age of 24. Gotcha. And the rest is history. I was hooked and just been absolutely thrilled and very fortunate to be able to do what I love to do ever since then and look forward to it every year. So, how many years has that been that you've been doing the sheep then? I'm trying to find out how old you are, I guess. That's another way of saying it. I'm 38 years old, and I've been doing it for... I've been working for Dan for 18 years. Gotcha. Perfect. So, two years as a packer, and then I started guiding on my third year. On sheep hunts my third year, and then during brown bear season, my third year, I ended up guiding a brown bear hunt. Geez, Dan, he's not even 40 years old. It's making me feel young. You've got a keeper there.

He's done 18 years, and he's not even 40. So, you must like it up there. Well, let's fast forward a little bit, I guess, just to get into maybe the guts of why we're maybe talking to each other today. You guys, you know, it's, what, roughly a week or 10 days into the sheep season here. And we got word a few days after the opener that you guys smashed just a tank of a ram, and I wanted to get into that, but I wanted to do it justice and talk about, I guess, this is a ram that you guys had a little bit of history with. And I guess I want to tee this up, too. This did happen to be with an auction hunter, but one thing that I think is definitely worth pointing out in Alaska is An auction hunter can hunt anywhere, but they don't get a start earlier than everybody else. Is that right? They still can't start until August 10th, correct?

That's correct. They have to be hunting in an open area, and every one of those open areas have at least one more permit holder in them. Yeah, that's right. There's a couple dry areas, and you could shoot them in a non-dry area, but traditionally, most of the auction hunters are taking place in 13 or 14C, You know, a 13D or 14C in the draw areas. Yeah, the auction permit itself is for all the Chugash draw areas. Yes, gotcha. That particular one, and then there's the one, the separate tag that's auctioned off is for TOKE. TOKE and Delta. And it's the same thing, and it's for the draw areas for TOKE. Gotcha. Well, so yeah, so in this case, this ram, and we'll just talk about it, I mean, this is a 185-incher. For you listeners, why are they calling about a dead sheep, a dead, a doll sheep? We're talking about a 185 inch doll sheep. I got him at 184 and 4'H".

Okay, yeah, you're talking net, so you're right. So, gross 185 and 2, 184 and 4. Yep. What a specimen. I've seen the pictures, and it's something to behold, but I guess we're talking about these drawer areas, But what's unique about this is this is not from a draw area that this auction guy was the only guy that could hunt there or one draw hunter. This is from an area that has a couple dozen tags a year or something like that, if I'm not mistaken. Is that right? That's correct. It has 25 tags a year. Five of them are for non-residents, 20 residents. This ram is 11 and a half years old. He's been legal for the last three years. So, it's a little bit of a surprise to how much he scored. Certainly, we never put that kind of mass on him, where he ended up racking up that kind of a score. But he was a very big loop on him, very big loopy ram, and with a lot of mass, and it makes his horn look

a little shorter. We knew we were looking at a good ram, and it kind of depended on We didn't know what kind of horn length he had, but we really had no idea he was going to score up into the 180s. So, was it a couple years ago, I think I was talking to you, Hank, you guys had seen this ram, was it two years ago, 2018? Is that when you think you first saw this ram? It was, yeah. And anything that stood out to you about them, or was it just another, I mean, you guys do live and guide in the area where arguably the biggest doll sheep in North America are at the moment. But anything that you thought, well, this is one to watch, or is he just like, just another really, really good ram that we're going to need to kill in a year or two? What was your thoughts then, versus maybe if you saw him in 19, and then versus, all right, let's fast forward to 2020?

The bases on him was what I caught. I mean, his overall weight, but certainly the bases on him, I was like, holy cow, look at the bases on him. But he wasn't even really anywhere close to full curl then, you know, and so he immediately thought, boy, he's going to be a dandy in a couple years. And he was nine, and he wasn't full curl. He wasn't full curl. I don't think he made full curl until this year. That's amazing. And with all that mass that makes him score so good, and then being not full curl, that's basically the only reason he was alive. If he had been some kind of a curly ram with 46-inch horns, he would have been dead three years ago. There were lots of people that probably saw him that didn't realize what they were looking at, including us. What did you think two years ago? I mean, and I don't know if you had a... you must have had a draw hunter in there.

This is an area you guys normally hunt every year. Did he get the legitimate pass, or did you have what you thought was a better ram that year that you took? Just curious. Yeah, we took, you know, we've taken a couple of grounds. And two years ago, we had a big ram on the other side of that area that, you know, we didn't end up getting him through circumstance, but he ended up being 45 and a quarter, 175 and three quarters, officially Boone and Crockett. So, that one was obvious. It jumped out at you like, this is an absolute fantastic ram. So, that's what we were hunting then. And then last year, we just didn't take any pictures of him or anything, but we were aware he was still there, but he wasn't full curl. Did you want to put somebody in there and then not have him be age-legal? Yeah, that's tough. That's a tough call. And talk about that, Hank or Dan, talk about...

I mean, most people, I mean, the Alaska law is either eight years old or full curl to be legal, or double-broomed, I guess, which he was not. But the Chugats, probably more than any other range, and you guys correct me, aren't those rams, they have more of a tendency to be the low, droopy curl and don't hit full curl at an age of eight, you know, more than maybe other ranges within Alaska? Is that safer to say? Yes, we've killed numerous rams that were 42, 42 and a half, that were barely full curl. And what about that, like what about their, is it because they're dropping so low, Dan, and then starting to turn up, but they just need more time to get, you know, past the nose, so to speak, or past the full circle?

Yeah, it's, you know, like I said, it's, that's, you know, you're always, you know, looking at something that, you know, for a long time, I never even considered looking at rams that weren't full curl, you know, and stuff. And once we started to actually, the ram population dropped and stuff there in the mid-2000s that we started looking at some of them and they ended up being 10, 11, 12-year-old rams that were just shy of full curl but still had good mass and stuff. So, you know, it was kind of when you start doing that, then it just kind of opened your eyes to some of that. But this ram was so heavy that it just didn't make his horns look that long. And I was just kind of shocked that he was actually, we had him at 42 and 7 8 by 42 and 5 8, and with a 15 2-inch bases, and that kind of mass, there isn't any ram that's unbroomed in the book

That has that kind of mass all the way through his horns, where his last quarter is seven or an eighth. So, we just never put that kind of number on. We thought if he was 38, he would go 168. If he was 40, he'd go 172. But then you start jumping up to 41, he's 174, 42, and then he's 176. And then you kick in another eight extra inches of mass. So, he's basically an inch bigger on every quarter than you would expect even a heavy ram to be. Yeah, and then there's eight inches right there. And then it jumped you up to 174. Yeah, just to run through those... I mean, 184, excuse me. Run through those real quick... Yeah, 42 and 5, 42 and 7 length. The base is 14 and 2, 14 and 5. He's 15 and 5 and 15 and 2. 15 and 2, 15 and 5, sorry. First quarters, 14 and 4 and 14 and 6.

That's unbelievable. And then, halfway, you're at 12 and 6 and 12 and 5, and I know there's a, I would say, 80% of doll sheep killed are about 12 and a half to 13 and a half inches basis. Yep, correct. I would say 80% over, we'll just call North America. And this thing had that at halfway point, and then both over 7 inches on the three-quarter line. Yep. Unbelievable, really. So, I mean, I've never, I mean, I looked at a lot of sheep's score sheets, and I've never seen one like that with the fin horn, really haven't. And I know there's, you know, stone sheep that are like that in some regard in BC that I've looked at, at least, score sheet-wise. But 15.5, 15.25 bases on a doll sheep that packs it, you know, incredibly well is going to get sneaky big. And like I said, that low drop and, I don't know, that ram kind of comes out and then comes forward.

It looks that way in the picture. I killed a ram that seems like a dink compared to this ram a couple years ago in Alaska. And I remember my guide said, hey, you know, when we get in on this thing, before we just kill him, we got to make sure he's legal. And I remember looking at him, and I'm thinking, if that ram is not legal, there's nothing we are here for. Because in my mind, you know, I don't ever have to, you know, hunting desert sheep that are always brooming. We never have to worry about krill or age. You know, you have, you know, you want an old ram, you know, we know what we're looking for, but we don't have to look for those legal identifiers that you guys have.

Anyway, long story short, I remember that about it because my ram came out and he pushes forward towards his face as opposed to start coming up, and that extra length is kind of going out away from his head and not turning up. And this ram resembled that to some extent and maybe is why he wasn't full curl till this year, but I don't know. Just a freak. Yeah, I've seen the pictures of your ram, and it's exactly kind of what he does, but he's even, with all that mass, it's even more pronounced, but it looks shorter horn because of the mass. But we killed one back in 2004 that I knew wasn't full curl. When we were going in there, I'd seen him for the last five years and looked at him to his spot and scope several times, and I knew he wasn't full curl, but I just felt like he had to be old.

And we got in there, and he's nine years old, and I couldn't count nine, but I could count eight over and over and over and over again. And I looked at him and literally counted rings for two hours, and I was just sure he was, but he was absolutely not full curl. He ended up being 40 and two-eighths by 14 and four-eighths, and his last quarter was six and an eighth. And he only ended up scoring 173 and six-eighths. But I was terrified when we shot him, you know, because the guy said, aren't you happy? And I said, yeah, I'm happy, but I'm going to be a lot happier when I get over there and count eight rings on him. Yeah, I don't want the fishing... So, I got over there, you know, and he's nine years old, and I'm like, whew! I don't want a 173-inch ram hanging in the fish and game office, you know, because they confiscate it. You know, I want you to be able to take it home.

That's what I'm here for. Yeah. And so, that's what you're, you know, you just have that kind of pressure on you out there, and you're pretty, you know, I've looked at hundreds of them, you know, and so I was pretty sure what I was looking at, you know, and certainly sure enough to take him because I just knew that I'd seen him so long that he had to be older, you know, but they just don't have that classic look. You talk about 40 or 42 inch rams, everybody thinks they're going to be coral and a quarter and stuff, and these rams in this two-gatch range just aren't always like that. And this one particularly is, nobody would have dreamed he was that big, I don't think. Yeah. You know, we looked at him, you know, for a couple days there through the spot and scope, and we certainly realized he was heavy and stuff, and we figured he would probably make book,

but we had no idea he was going to be this kind of ram, you know. And then you get up to him, and the mouse on him, it looks more like a bighorn. You know, it's just like, holy cow. Yeah, I suspect there'll be people, when they see the pictures, they'll be like, wow, that's what a 184.5 ram. I wasn't expecting that, you know. And it's because of the shape and the build, and that, you know, a lot of the doll sheep that people, maybe the eye-popping doll sheep are those thin twisters that, you know, 43, And they're coming back on themselves with an argali flare, and this ram has none of that look at all. Just a freak. So, yeah, let's talk a little bit about, I guess, your hunter, the lucky hunter. You know you're there. I mean, I don't think he had the pressure to shoot a 184-inch ram, but you had a few days to look over some rams,

And this one obviously did it for you this year, and you felt he was in love. And one day, I guess you killed it opening day. Tell us a little bit about the hunt itself. Well, you know, on the actual hunt, you know, we rely on Dan's incredible eyes, and he knows, he's watching these sheep grow up. And, you know, Dan definitely felt like this was the best ram that you got this year to go after. And so, you know, the Governor's tag, Hunter, he was just looking for the best ram we could put him on, the great guy. And Dan felt like this was the best ram. And so, yes, we watched him, and then, you know, we brought Spike Camp in, and then I climbed the hill the night before the opener, and I took pictures of this ram through my spong scope at 1,052 yards. And, you know, you still look at those pictures, and you still don't think that he's what he is, you know.

You know, you go up there and we thought that, yeah, he's going to be right in that low 170 class, even leading into it opening morning. And, you know, opening morning was pouring rain and windy and everything, and it was just kind of the break we needed to get up on that ram. And it was in some really tough terrain to get up over the top of him. He was in a good basin where you couldn't come from the backside and get over the top of them. So, I knew that going into it, that our best chance of probably killing that ram, again, you got 25 tag holders in there of the five non-residents and the 20 residents. So, you can have some pressure in there. I knew we needed to probably try to get that ram killed pretty quick. You just couldn't approach it from up over the top.

We used that cold weather and the rain to our advantage and got up early, and we looked for that room. I couldn't see him where he was the night before, and so I checked the next basin over, couldn't find him there. I went out to another point, couldn't see him across the hillside, so I went, he's got to be there, you know? So, we went back, and I just kind of got that gut feeling that he's right up above us, and somewhere here. And it's not the position, as you know, as a sheep hunter, you want to put yourself in looking from below. But I snuck out, and I kept looking around, snuck out another 10 feet, another 10 feet, and didn't see him. And so, I was just kind of getting ready to kind of head back towards the hunter. I had left the hunter about 50, 60 yards behind me, just so there was one of us going out.

And all of a sudden, a ram walked out right in front of me. And I was like, oh boy, you know, there he is. It is. And then the big one walked out. He's 212 yards, and you could definitely tell it was a big one. Was there two? Just two ramps? There was actually three of them together. Okay. And then also there's three of them out. So, I'm sitting there pinned down in a rock in a moraine field, 212 yards from, you know, the biggest ram I've ever seen in my life, which, again, I didn't exactly know it either at that point. But, you know, and then the ram, one ram fed in, another ram fed in behind some rocks, and the big ram was out and facing away. And I was like, I just don't want to screw this up. So, I kind of waited, and another ram fed out. So, you know, another ram fed back in. I just, you know, the big ram was facing dead away from me,

and I just took off, grabbed my hunter. So, he's right here, 212 yards above us, and we crept out. And I saw this rock that was angled the same pitch of the slope, basically, where he could put his gun on. And we got out to that point, and I pointed it out to him, and he was very educated on it, and making sure that we had great communication on the right ram, because there was another really big ram with him, a pretty big ram with him, you know, looking back on it now anyways. But, and making sure we were on the right ram, and Louis, he shot him, I think, about 230 yards at that point, and the ram hunched up.

I said, you got him hit good, and he walked in, a little ram walked in behind him and told him not to shoot, and then that little ram cleared and made sure he was on the right ram again. He shot again and dumped him, and we were pretty excited, obviously. And then we walked, walking up there, you know, you could see the ram's head looked like he was, his head was 18 inches off the ground, because how big that loop was on him. And I told my sister guide. So, one horn was on the ground and the other one was sticking up, you know? Yes. Yeah, that's what you're saying. Wow. You know, and yes, yep, yep, man. He was laying on the side there, and I told my young assistant guy, Mike Gray, that I said, you ever seen that, Mike? He goes, I've never seen that before, and he knows what he's looking at, you know? How far were you out at this point?

We were about 60, 70 yards away from him at that point, you know? And walk up there, and Really, the first thing that really stood out to me, well, obviously besides his horns, was his body size. I mean, you knew something that he's the biggest body chief that I had ever seen, and just giant, giant body on him. And you start putting that together, and you know that a big animal... Is gonna hide his horns, don't look as big. Yeah, he's gonna hide his horns, yeah. Yep, you know, and then I knew, I still don't know what exactly, 100% what we'd killed when I walked up, I knew it was the biggest ram I'd ever been a part of. And I've seen some big rams on the ground, and we were pretty ecstatic. I mean, there's a video that I hope never services to the internet of me walking in circles going crazy just because of how excited I was.

Who has, does the hunter or Mike have that? Who would we bribe to get that video? Who has that? Mike Gray has that video. Well, Dan, you make sure that that never gets put away in some vault. Mike can be bought. That's right. Yeah, keep that. That'll be a jewel someday to watch. But yeah, Hank's point is, you know, it can't be stressed enough how big this ram was body-wise. It just made everything look proportionate, kind of when you knew that, but until you actually walked up to him, you really had no idea.

Yeah, I could tell that in the pictures, the face and the head, the depth of the head from like the forehead to the bottom of the jaw. You know what I'm talking about? Just the blockiness of the head versus a slender, you know, some doll sheep, frankly, can look kind of dainty, slender face and slender nose. And I know part of that is, you know, if you shoot sheep in July or early August in some of the Canadian provinces, they're not haired up quite as good. And that can be part of it. But you know what I'm saying. These chugach rams are just not that way. They are stout. They're oxes. They're just built different. So, yeah, I have this thing myself with my thumbs and two of my fingers that if I walk up on a ram, and it's that initial, sometimes you can't wait to get there because you know you just killed a giant.

Other times, you know you killed a really good ram, and you don't know how good, but you know he's really good. And I'm talking desert sheep and some Rocky Mountain bighorn down here in Lord 48, never a thin horn. And I've got, you know, two of my fingers and my thumbs, when I make a circle, it's dead on 15 inches. And so, if I walk up and I have an initial, and if they don't touch, I know I've got something really good. Because we're in Utah, and you get a 15 inch plus desert sheep, that's a really good ram. It's a very good desert sheep anyway. And, you know, Rockies, generally, if we kill one, 15 and a half, 16 plus. But anyway, if I got space in there, I know immediately. You got anything like that, Dan or Hank? In this case, Hank, where you walked up, did you do an initial grab, and was it just the

whole thing in your hands, two horns, or did you... something had to click that this is a freak In your hands. Absolutely. You know, just looking at them, you know, you knew, and then, and then, exactly, the first thing, just what you mentioned, first thing I did is, I took both my hands around his bases, and I, and we have about the same size hands, I think, Adam, and my fingers didn't touch, and I went, holy crap, you know. I've seen a lot of bighorns on the ground, and done the same thing, the bighorns, and that, it really started hitting me, and still, I still couldn't fathom those numbers of what he really was, you know.

You're just going... But that's exactly the first thing I did. And I knew I didn't... I just absolutely knew at that point how big he was. And I threw out a number out there on that video. Did you? Yeah, I did. I was still... What was the number? Are you at liberty to say what was the number? I will tell you what that number was. Yeah, I looked at that ram and I just held those bases and I said, you guys, we just killed a 178 to 180 type of ram. I said, this ram could go 180. You cheated him. He's way bigger than that. Exactly. Exactly. You still, a doll sheep guides mind putting those type of numbers. I mean, still I've been around enough bighorns, but this is like more of a bighorn sheep than obviously anything else. If I had walked a bighorn and done the same thing, my guess would have been this is probably maybe a 185 because you're used to that, but you're not used to saying

You just don't even think of it in your mind. Well, that's why you guys, when you're seeing this ram, and he's not clearly full curl for a couple years, so you're not just like smashing and killing, because you're, well, let's see what he turns into. You never go in your mind to 15 plus. Well, I'll bet he's got 15 plus bases. You never would say. I don't know what you guys know. Is 14 and a half probably a number you guys govern yourselves at quite a bit? I mean, you've killed bigger, but is that a number that you're like, if he's really heavy, Let's give him 14.5 base. Is that where you kind of put the ceiling on most runs? Yeah, that's good. That's just what I was giving him. I was giving him if he was 14.5, and then if he was 13.5 on his next quarter, then if he was 11.5, that's even big, but 11 for sure, and then if he was 6.5, you know, like I said, I was giving him,

at 38, he was going to be 168, you know, and he just kept growing from there, you know, but giving him that extra inch on every quarter was not even in my mind. Wow. So, after you took a bunch of pictures, you took some video that sometime might make a lot of money on YouTube, it sounds like, but after all of that was done, did you have to spend the night there? I don't know what time of day it was, or did you get him back to a spike camp that night? Dan, when did you get your hands on him? Well, Hank called me, and he called me right after they got to the ramp, and he said, we killed him at 11-11 a.m. Oh, okay. So, they had him before noon, and then I flew in the next morning early, and I met him on the way out, and I got to pack him for the last two miles off the mountain. Did you... you had to get him out and fondle him? You didn't just, you know, pack the pack?

Well, yeah, I had to get him off the pack. You weren't going to say, well, I'll see what he... Yeah, you had to at least get him out. I just had to carry him off the mountain, you know. Yeah. Well, what was your initial... what was your initial wow? Because now, and I don't know how it is for me, When I kill the big ram down here, when you get them off the body, especially if they're on a big-bodied Rocky that kind of gobbles them up, and you just got a skull in your hands of just a skull, the jaw is off usually, lower jaw. I love that impressive, this is what this guy carried around. And so, that's what you would have got the first time. What was your impression, Dan, when you grabbed that? Well, just when Hank had him in his pack, He took him out, and I got my hands on him, and that's the first thing that jumped out at,

is just how massive this thing is. You know, you just never felt a doll sheep like that in your hands. Even a heavy one didn't feel like that. It was just like so overblown. It was just really incredible, you know, and just a different kind of animal altogether. We've got a couple other rams that That are almost 40 inches, that score 162 and 163 and a half. And you put those horns next to him right now, and it looks like a different species. Yeah, and that's... He's just so much more. And the horns weigh 10 pounds more than those other sets. 10 pounds. What did... Yeah, this guy with all the meat removed from his skull and the brain out of him, he still goes 27 and a half pounds.

Wow, doll ship. Unbelievable. Well, I assume, are you gonna, well, this is assuming, I don't, I, well, I don't think we're gonna have a sheep show this year. I've been hearing that rumbling, so. I've heard it's canceled. Yeah, so I was gonna say, I'll see him at the sheep show, but I guess we won't. I don't, but you gotta bring him the next year. Something, or, we gotta get replicas or something, because he's probably gonna want, a hunter's gonna want him mounted at some point, but. Yeah. I would love, I would love to, you usually have some replicas, and I'm looking forward, because I think this is a This is going to be one of those rams, like I said, the pitchers on that giant bodied sheep are not going to probably have as much wow factor as most people are expecting a ram of this magnitude to have. But I think when they pick up the horns, they're going to be in awe.

And I want to put into perspective, let's talk just for a minute about what we're talking about. We're talking about a doll sheep that is, I guess, top 10, top five or 10 ever, and you just don't kill mid-180s doll sheep anymore. Numbers-wise, not just in Alaska, but in most places, provinces are not what they were back when they were, you know, in the 60s, 70s, and 80s when, you know, things were just riper. This is like, to liken it in the mule deer world, this is like killing a 300-inch hard-antled mule deer or 375 or, sorry, 475 or 485 elk. This is something of that magnitude, something that's just, this doesn't even happen. And I don't know if you guys, you are thin horn experts, where in your mind, I mean, how long has it been since they've killed a ram, let's just even say 180 plus, or of this size?

Yeah, Sherwin, you know, I don't, you know, looking at the book and stuff, but this ram, Sherwin Scott killed one that was 184 and 5 8s back in 84. And that's the last ram of this kind of size that we've taken that's been entered in the book, yeah. Wow. Yeah, that's a unicorn. That's what we're talking about here. But, you know, and looking at that ram, you know, you're looking at the Sherwin-Scott ram, you know, and you're looking at 44 7 8 by 47, you know. So, he's just a different kind of look altogether. You look at the current Boone & Crockett record book and look at the top ten, they got pictures of them here in the book and stuff. There's an old one that was 182 that's broomed off on both ends real hard and stuff that was picked up in the Kenai in 69 that has a lot of mass like that, but he's broomed.

Yeah, so it's going to bunch up the mass measurements more than a long unbroomed ram. You mentioned something a minute ago, and your other rams this year, I think you said 162, 164. Is that about right? 162.5 and 163.5 green score. And those are big sheep. They were 39.5 and 39.75. Those are big sheep. I mean, those are sheep that 99% of people will shoot anytime they see them, whenever, opening day, whatever. And 99% of people probably should. If you don't, you've probably killed a bunch of doll sheep, and you're looking for something that maybe doesn't exist where you're hunting, or just hoping for something bigger. You know what I mean? Yeah, and what I told those hunters were that if every one of our clients killed a ram like this, everybody would be happy. Yeah, that's right. That's what I mean. That's the 99%. Those are great rams, you know?

Yep. And you said that this thing is 10 pounds heavier? Yep. Is that what you said? Yep. 10 pounds? Yep. That's unbelievable. But, well, it's 20 inches of overall score, I guess, and so you've got to get there, and the mass is where that's going to come from. So, well, I imagine your hunter's beyond thrilled. I mean, I can't imagine that. You know, these are one of those things that just happen to you, both as a guide, both as an outfitter, as a hunter. Obviously, hard work, preparation, being in the right area, you know, having a great tag, all those things have to come into play, but these things just happen. There's freak human beings, Shaquille O'Neal's, that are 350 pounds and 7'2", or whatever, and we're what we are. You know what I mean? We're all people, but some people aren't really people, they're freaks.

You know, some of our athletes and things like that, and this is one of those instances. So, that's pretty special. So, you're, I don't know, I don't know what you're going to do the rest of the year, You know, you're going to be able to figure the rest of your lives, I guess, when it comes to trying to top that, because you probably won't, but you know that. But the fact that it happened once means it could happen again, I guess. That's the other way to look at it. Yeah, we certainly aren't looking at topping that. I don't think anybody that is rational would think that they could go out and top that. You know, it's just not going to happen. But the fact that he could get this old and be that big in a fairly well hunted area, you know, that wasn't exclusively by any means, you know, is a pretty amazing thing, too.

I mean, it just kind of shocks me, and I just, you know, you just say, you just have no idea. You know, you can imagine what the tag would have went for if you could say, well, we got one we'll think of going to the mid-80s. You know, I mean, you just don't think that way, but we're certainly pleasantly pleased that he is what he is, and he's a great old ram. I'm glad he got to be 11 and a half years old and that he's got his genetics out in that herd. It doesn't look like he did a lot of fighting, I can imagine. Like you talk, it's kind of like Shaquille O'Neal going up against a featherweight. Can you imagine hitting horns with that guy? That guy probably was, you know, he didn't have much competition. It wasn't to beat on him.

Well, yeah, you look at these other rams you just talked about. They're big. They're 40 inchers, and their horns are just the horns themselves. Horns and skull are 10 pounds difference. Not to mention his body and everything else and all of the momentum. So, it's pretty easy to see that he could probably rule the show. And one thing worth pointing out, you know, a book doll or stone is a 170-inch net, which in my opinion is one of those minimum scores anymore that probably is too high, you know, of all species. I think the thin-horned sheep are the ones that are too—I mean, a desert sheep is 168. A desert is lower, and I don't really know where 168 came from. But I guess in Utah, I kind of like it, because we don't kill giant, giant sheep in Utah, but I have a chance to kill a book ram every year with some of my hunters if it breaks 168.

But the 170 is really, there's a lot of years, you guys know this, in North America, there isn't a book ram killed, or entered, I should say, and maybe there's one killed and not scored somewhere. But, you know what I'm saying, that's a rare, there's not very many books sheep killed a year. You know, a Rocky Mountain book ram is 180, so this thing's, you know, easily a book. I mean, we killed 182-inch Rocky here in Utah last year, and I made a video probably like Hank's when we did that, but that was a Rocky Mountain bighorn. He's supposed to be 182, you know. So, pretty rare stuff, I guess, just to put everything like that in perspective. Absolutely. Well, anything we left out about this? I know you guys got to get to the mountain. You got a hunter, it sounds like.

You know, you're flying in, and he's flying in, or whatever he's doing with COVID. Maybe talk about that just for 30 seconds. Is there any issues with there that your hunter's coming in? What are they doing? I mean, I know sheep season, goat season's coming up. What are you guys having to do? Just have a test within 72 hours, Dan, that they present when they get there? Yeah, that's what they got in place now. Up till August 11th, all you had to do was have a test within 72 hours, or be tested once you got here, and then quarantine yourself until those results out. But they changed that on August 11th, and now you have to have that test in hand. And so far, everything's, you know, it's just barely available out there. There are some places that have a hard time getting that back to you or guaranteeing it,

but so far we've had no problems getting people in, and they've had their test, and nobody's had positive or anything. I did have a packer that has packed for me for three years that lives in Juneau, and he came down with it about the 5th of August. So, we were short a packer to start the season right off the bat, but I had another friend that does goats down We got him up and stuff. So far, we haven't had any real issues and stuff. We got four boat hunters coming in here in late August to start the season on September 1st. A couple sheep hunters. Everybody's pretty lined up right now. We haven't got any problems, and there hasn't been any threat of closing it down altogether or anything. We certainly have more cases up here now. So, you guys both going in on this one, or Hank, or who's going on on this one? You going back in, Hank?

Well, we're not sure, actually, as of right now. I'm certainly hoping to on that. You know, you talk about the Chugash being brutal, and I've literally seen the Chugash mounds take grown tough men and chew them up and spit them out. You know I have. And so, on this hunt, I've been doing it a while, and I've had a bad knee. Well, my good knee, something happened on this last hunt, and I'm not sure what's going on, but it swelled up and doubled in size, and I have now fluid drained out of my calf, and my calf is really big. And so, I'm actually going to the doctor today at 3 o'clock, and I've got to get to go ahead to do this next hunt. So, I'm praying that the doctor says there's nothing serious If I can go on the hunt, if not, Dan's gonna add in. We might both add in. I'm not sure what's going on, but Dan will probably add in with me if that's the case. Well, geez.

It was all the dancing that got us needed. Yeah, I was gonna say. It probably was. Well, hopefully that's something they can just drain off. I don't know. I've had one of those like that, and they drained it a couple times, and it went away. I probably took something they gave me, prescribed me, and it went away. But hopefully, that's all it is, because you've got a bunch of goat hunters, sounds like, coming. I know you've got a goat hunter in a different area down south that's going to be a real troublemaker this year later on for you, I think. So, I've heard he, you know, ends up wanting his guy to pack all of his stuff. He's just one of those guys that's always just your weight and hand and foot on him. So, I hope you're up for it and your knee's better for that one. Well, I think my knee will be...it's drained some today, it's feeling better today, and I'll be ready to go on that one.

Yeah, for all of you guys that don't know... He'd be happy with a 12-inch billy, so I don't think it would be a problem. That's all it, yeah. He wants his gear packed, he wants, you know, nice weather, not very much rain, and, you know, really good food, and, you know, an 11 1⁄2-inch billy. That's all he wants. That's it. It's pretty easy to piece. We're on track for that right now, Adam, so I think we'll see what happens. Just for your viewers to be perfectly clear, the hunter is you, Adam. That's right. That's me. So, yeah, I got lucky and drew a tag in southeast Alaska. You're going to hunt the rainforest and catch again.

Yeah, we'll be hunting the jungle. So, anyway, but yeah, Hank, after he's done guiding for Dan up there in the Chugach, he goes down and helps another outfitter down there on some little bit later season goat hunts. So, we should team up there. Knock on wood, I've got my 72-hour, you know, people lined up. You know, it seems like they change stuff every day, but I'll, I get a good piece of paper. I'll be there late September, early October, or whenever you guys are hunting, done hunting. You guys got a Rocky to go kill. Lauren's got a Rocky tag, right? Yep, Lauren's got a Rocky Mountain tag and the break's there, so we're gonna be down there in October. So, is it October? Is that when you're gonna go, or is it gonna be... Yeah, that's with all the goat hunters and moose and stuff.

I gotcha. It's just, we got that bow hunter that starts on October 1st, and trying to get down there and do something and get right back up here, it's just... Tough to do. ...pretty tight. Well, that's a two and a half month season in Montana. Yeah, it is. And the rut comes on late October, November anyway. Well, you guys have been great. It sounds like we gotta let Hank get to the doctor. That's one thing. And then, I don't know, Dan, it sounds like you better get your pack pack. You might be heading into the mountains tonight. It's been back. I'm ready to go. So, well, Alaska Trophy Adventures. Hank and Dan, we really appreciate your time today. Congratulations on Incredible Ram. We look forward to maybe later this next year showcasing We'll take some more of the details of Lewis's hunt in our Epic Outdoors magazine.

Just wanted to get it. It's that time of the year when the hunts are starting down here, the archery deer hunts, but Alaska things are underway with sheep and whatnot, and a ramble of this magnitude, and such great guys. We wanted to call and kind of get it from the horse's mouth. So, we really appreciate you guys taking a few minutes with me today, and our listeners, I'm sure they'll enjoy it, and look forward to seeing more of the details of this special, special ram that you guys were able to take. For all of our listeners or anybody that's maybe interested in hunting with you guys at some point, it's not something you can just book a hunt for doll sheep. The areas that you guide in 13D, 14C subunits are a draw. So, why don't you talk just a little bit about that and the timeline. It's coming up here in December and, you know, how they get a hold of you, things like that.

Okay. Yeah, the application period for the draws is November 1st to right around December 15th. Sometimes they run it a couple more days to the 17th. But you have to have a guide client agreement contract with the guide before you can apply. You know, we apply hunters through your service, and that application period is pretty long. It's a month and a half, and the odds in some of the areas are about 1 in 20, and some of them are as much as 1 in 5. It depends on what hunt you're putting in for and what time of year and stuff. But there's some giant rams out there. You know, the rams we killed this year, there's two 11-year-olds and a 10-year-old. Since we've been in the draw the last five or six years, getting a lot more older rams, and just really good rams. And, you know, we've averaged for the last seven years, we've averaged 40 or better every year except for one year,

and then we averaged 39 and three quarters on our rams we've taken in particular year, unbrewed rams. So, they're just really giant rams in this country, and the genetics are still there, And it's just a real opportunity if you want to get a large, dull sheep and don't mind the rugged terrain. And, you know, hunting is certainly a physical hunt, but you don't have to be an absolute animal to do it. But it certainly helps to be in good physical shape and just have a real positive attitude. And we can get just about everybody where they need to be. Well, I have a lot of people ask me here at Epic Outdoors about, hey, should I be playing the Alaska Doll Sheep Draw? And I guess I would just say to them, yes, but it depends. If you are itching to go, you have your money set aside, you're in shape, you want to go this

year or next year, you should play the draw, but you probably need to have a contingency plan. I mean, I don't know how many years I've applied with you guys, and I got to have a contingency plan because I want to hunt sheep at some point in my life, and that's the reality But for those guys or ladies that draw their tags, you got a special, special, special hunt. I know we had one of our clients, Kara Robertson, she drew in 2019, took an awesome ram with you guys. I think it was just 168 or 9 right there, official, just a stomper. And anyway, some subtle differences within subunits as well that I think come application time, You could call us here at Epic Outdoors or call Dan and talk with them about unit choices. You can buy up to what, I think, is it six applications? Is that what you can pay for? Six per sheet?

You can apply up to six times. Six times, and so you can do them all in one. Or you can put them in six different. But it's a little bit different up here. It's kind of like having a preference point system. You know, you get a little bonus being able to apply that many times and stuff. I think it's just five bucks per entry, if I'm not mistaken. It's $35 per application. So, buy your hunting license. With a current hunting license, yeah. Buy your hunting license, and then, you know, $30. You might as well do all six, and you're in the draw six times for whatever. But you can help maybe pick a subunit for the clients, too, to help match them, you know, if they, you know. Certainly, I, yeah, I, you know, quiz the clients on their physical abilities, what they're looking for, you know, what kind of hunt they're looking for and stuff.

14C is a lot of it is just hiking only. Some of that country is 20 miles in to get into where the sheep are. And 13D and all that country is all fly in. You know, I know it like the back of my hand. So, there's a lot of places I can get up, you know, pretty remote on the glaciers and stuff that a lot of other people can't. But just kind of what fits the particular hunter and what he's looking for and stuff. But there's a lot of opportunity out there. There's quite a few tags available, and like I said, we're getting some really good old rams, and that always makes me happy. I hate killing eight-year-old sheep. I like killing something that's 10 or 11 or 12. Well, that's great. Will, we appreciate your time. You got a few months to think it over, I guess. The one thing about that, they do get the draw. Results usually right about mid-February, if I'm not mistaken.

So, you still have quite a few months to plan, but it's just a foregone conclusion. Somebody's gonna draw. You got your name in the hat. Again, Alaska doesn't have a point system. Get your name in the hat, just a pure random draw, and if you draw, you're gonna have a special hunt. So, appreciate you guys again, your time. Thanks again, and good luck on your next hunt, and stay safe. Thank you. Thank you, Adam. Yep. You bet. Talk to you later. Take care. Bye now.