EP 186: You Don't Know What You've Got Until It's Gone.

Wyoming general for the residents of Wyoming. Is that going to be a forever thing? You just don't know what you got until it's gone. Idaho made the step this year to make the non-residents go to a draw. Anything to do with Western big game. Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson. We got the boys in here How are you guys doing? Not bad. Good. Devin Archibald, Wyatt Bowles, Chris Peterson. John's busy putting together the magazine for January. Who knows what he's doing? We're taking an hour break. He's had some things going on. He's cranking hard. John works hours. I don't know. He works midnight to 4 a.m. He's a night owl. We work 4 a.m. to 4 p.m. or 8 p.m. We're morning dudes, whatever those are called. Yeah. Early birds. I don't know.

But we, just the way, sometimes we're middle birds. Jason and I, and probably you and Devin and I too, I can get up early, early and come to work. But when it gets in the winter, five, six, I'm done. John comes alive about then till about three in the morning and goes to bed. I just don't operate that way. I was trying to go to bed at nine last night. And that's pretty regular. You guys, are you guys nine o'clock yet? Because you're married, but I don't know if you've actually made the switch to what married dudes do. Yeah, I'm nine o'clock-ish, nine, ten. But Devin. From what you told us, he's, It's already been on the old man's schedule before marriage, right? Yeah, I think we both kind of got on it for a little bit. We're in the bachelor pad there.

There's a lot going on. I mean, I'd paw out of bed at 8.30. Who would tuck who in when you guys were at the bachelor pad? Who went to bed first? And the winter months are terrible, right? When the daylight saving hits, and it's dark at 6, it's bad. And then you think what you're doing at 8 o'clock in September? Oh, you're still... It never gets dark. It's not even prime time yet. You're just starting to get glass and light. It's unbelievable. And this time here, 8.30 rolls around, I'm bedding down. Oh, I'm done. 9 o'clock. Tapped out. But we're also coming in early, so. All right. Well, it's that time of year. We did want to do a little podcast about- Let's set the theme of the day. That's right. About a subject that is near and dear to our hearts as we're watching things change. Hold on. Nice. I don't care. Oh, it's good.

Archibald's driving down Main right now. If you find yourself swaying side to side slowly, you're not alone. Every other 40 to 50 year old dude's doing the same thing. Maybe you're the guy that just leaned up and held the walls up at the high school dance. He just leaned up against the wall. That'd be me. Me too. Guilty. I was there too. I'm hitting the KB about right now. Wyatt, he's holding up the parking lot down there. Shopko parking lot. I'm in an 84 Toyota. What are you in, Wyatt? Oh, power stroke. 76 CJ7. Oh, you guys are 94 Chevy. You guys were the cool kids. I was in a hatchback. I did have a 22-250 in the window. We had a turbo sprint. Wow. Well, what's this song have to do with hunting, Carter? Well, you don't know what until you... You just don't know what you got until it's gone. You just don't know what you got until it's gone. Well, that's what it has to do with hunting.

Let's see where this goes. That's right. We were just talking, Bronson, and of course, Devin and Wyatt, they were around for a lot of this, too. We were talking the other day about all the different changes we've been seeing since the 80s, 90s, 2000s. I mean... 2020. Yeah. Even in the last five years. Even in the last five years. Going away, and... There you go. Arizona Trail Camerons are looming in the near future, perhaps. Nevada having a Trail Cam season. There's all kinds of just awesome things that we've seen over the course of time. And then we think about things that are going on right now. I don't know. Think about unlimited sheep in Montana. You know, things like that. Wyoming general for the residents of Wyoming. Is that gonna be a forever thing? I don't know.

So, I just wanted to, yeah, let's just talk about a few things. Like, you guys remember, I mean, general over-the-counter Utah, because it's our home state. Yeah, at least Jason and I, I don't know what it was when you guys started, but when we had dedicated hunter tags, before they're dedicated hunter tags, He bought a tag at the grocery store, good statewide, and you could hunt archery if he didn't kill. He could hunt the rifle if he didn't kill. Then the muzzleloader member was late in early November. You gotta kill one deer. Yeah, we didn't have to pick a region until 92, 93, right? 92, 93, they went to the five regions in Utah and went to a draw of roughly 20,000 tags per region, roughly. And that winter kill of 92, 93 was... I mean, you know, but just prior to that, it was unbelievable.

Yeah, and you know, we weren't that, I guess I wasn't that picky, but I mean, it was just nice that you knew, you could hunt 28-day archery season, a 9-day rifle, and like a 9-day late muzzle. Now, those muzzleloader hunts are limited entry hunts in Utah now in all the generals. Taking 15 points, 16 points. Yeah, those same hunts right now in all the generals, we had them over the counter. As part of your general tag, you could do the archery, the rifle, and that hunt. Yeah, and then there was a time with the dedicated hunter that when you drew Poncagant, you could hunt all three seasons. Yeah, if you drew the Poncagant or Henry's. And it even played to elk, didn't it? It did, yeah. My dad drew his elk tag in Utah. He was able to hunt archery, rifle, and muzzleloader, but just overlap the deer seasons.

Early on, it was really weird. When Utah expanded their elk herds and all that, and they started off with five tags, ten tags here, they didn't have two tags for archery, five for rifle, and two for muzzle. It was just rifle tags in the rut. That was the only hunt for years. And so, if you wanted to hunt during the archery deer season, because there wasn't an archery elk, you just paid, what, 20 bucks? Yeah. Something like that. Minimal fee. And you get to hunt the archery hunt during the deer hunt, because you're, oh, yeah, you're out there on the mountain, you got a deer tag. Hunt your elk then, too. If you don't kill, you get the rifle. It was nuts. It was nuts. Dedicated hunter elk type tags, you get on all seasons. Now, that's called a premium or multi-season tag, and they draw one or two or three per unit, and it's like 20 plus on every unit.

But you've got to do it, because we keep seeing the quality diminish, and part of that is A, tag numbers. But we're good at killing them. We just had a podcast on optics, and smart optics, and angle range finders, and long range rifles, and turrets, and reticles. And all of these things are attributing to this. Smart trail cameras, cellular trail cameras, you know, all kinds of stuff. People are getting good at killing them, and they're spending time. I don't know if this COVID environment is going, but people have time. They have time to go out and run their cameras. They have time to scout. There was guys, I talked to a guy about Idaho General, Deer, and he's like, you know, normally I see like two or three guys in the field. I saw 25 guys in the field, and he says, I know they didn't give necessarily any more tags.

It was just everybody utilized those tags. Everybody went. You know what I mean? Well, maybe that's what led to some of the changes we're talking about now. Now you've got non-resident sub-quotas within the greater total non-resident, you know, general tag that used to be done statewide except for limited entry units until this year. And that's gone. It's probably not going to come back. No. And it's got people gnashing teeth pretty hard. So, what about like, there was over-the-counter Arizona strip archery tags? 13A. Up until 2007. That's one that's still on me.

We're not talking that much. That dude still haunts you? Yeah, I remember when I found- I didn't even know that. Well, the Kaibab. But in 2007, I was 18. Yeah. But, yeah. Three years later, I dropped. Well, that's not that long ago. No. And the Kaibab and 13A, 13B wasn't, but 13A- Right, 13A. And the Kaibab, you could, every year, a $125 non-permit tag, or whatever they're called, just like the ones they sell now, you still hunt all of the Central and Southern Arizona. It's the same- just the same general deer tag, non-permit deer tag, and you could We hunted up there in August, over the counter. Well, Clint and I went out there in his rotten old Chevy, 92 Chevy. You remember, you know, those hinged pins that go down through the door jams? And I mean, those are rotten and falling out, and they all need new bushings. Even the new ones needed new bushings.

And anyway, we went out there and tried to do our best at it. Of course, back then, archery equipment was whatever you could find, and we're broke. I mean, you didn't know, you didn't value it. Like, if you would have said, hey, this tag here takes 20 points, you would have valued it, you would have put everything into it, but when you can get it every year, well, let's just go do a smash and grab for a week. Three-day weekend. Yeah. I think that's the whole thing why we're even talking about this in a podcast, because you're right. And to a large extent, look at the Utah General now. After 25 years, we'll just say it, of draw, you went to a subunit thing maybe 10 years ago, where it's unit by unit. But it takes points now. You don't get one every year, for the most part. And if you really value that, which a lot of people do, they put a lot more time into that. They do.

And the guys that really treat it like a good, good tag, they've killed some great bucks. There's something to be had for them. But when you could buy it at Walmart and hunt for a dedicated hunter, we talk about this about the dedicated hunter program, it sometimes occurs because, ah, I got, you know, I got 60 days to hunt, you know, I'm not gonna get that serious. But when you got it, when you draw a five-day rifle hunt, or a nine-day rifle hunt, and that's all you got, it's like, you got tunnel vision a little bit more. And you're not gonna get it for the next two years, most likely? Yeah. You're gonna hunt every single day. Well, there was a tag, and I remember, I remember it vividly. There was a 241 landowner tag come up for sale. And nobody knew anything about it. It sold for like $3,200. And nobody wanted it. Nobody I knew wanted it.

15 years ago, maybe roughly. Yeah, oh yeah. I mean, early 2000s. Now, that's more valuable than a 242 tag, really. I mean, a 241 only tag's $27,500. So, it's just saying. And back then, there was real deer. Back then, there was real deer. We're not fighting for 200s. There's real deer. And in the 240s, you could hunt until mid to late November on the rifle. The season dates. I can't stand to think about the season dates. I can't stand it. I can't stand it. Can you think about it? I mean, they used to let you hunt Thanksgiving in Utah, Nevada, lots of places. And you're just like, man, now we're cutting them off in October. October 31st is when it ends.

You know what I mean? And they're just starting to rut a little bit. It's just crazy, crazy to think about some of the change we've seen, not only dollar-wise, but, Jen, not only are these tags selling for $20,000, $30,000, $40,000,000. The Ponce have gone tags, $30,000, $40,000,000 plus. Which also has a neighboring general deer unit that's pretty damn good. That's off the charts, right? Well, just look at Boulder, Panguitch, Zion, all three sides of the Ponce. I mean, kill a lot of pretty good deer on them every year. I mean, there's a lot of hunters. We don't want to minimize that they're still general season units. You see a lot of people. But, big deer to be had on those three. For Archibald took down his Poncigal legend. Oh, yeah. What story? He walked a little too far, I guess. Well, yeah, Poncigal buck that migrates to Zion, you know, got smoked.

And I'll bet you when I shot that buck, that buck in my office. Oh, that one in there? 6x6, yep. No kidding. What did that thing go? Like 203, just over two. Dump that deer. Oh, but I could have counted 20 people from where I shot him. Stand up, look around, you could see 20 people. Easy. Like, way out there, you know, but yeah, I mean, orange everywhere. Was this back in the day of the 10x50 redfields? This isn't that long ago, is it? 2017. Oh, I didn't know that. You killed that buck that recently? Yeah. Dude, I learned everything from a podcast. The guys had hunted him on the archery hunt for years. In the ponds, right? Multiple years, yeah.

He took an arrow the year I killed him and the year before. Oh, no kidding. In his back straps, yeah. No kidding. How did you know? Was there scarring? I had no idea. I killed him. Or they came to you and said, hey, I got an arrow on that deer. Yeah, I killed him, and I think it was Cameron or you, Wyatt, told me, hey, that bucks. Somebody contacted you. We'd seen it in the summertime. It was a pretty popular deer. A lot of people had been hunting it and chasing it around. So, as soon as he shot it, did you know immediately, pretty much? Yeah, as soon as we got the picture sent over to us, yeah. Wow. I come to find out had liked the photo of the deer on Instagram. The velvet? The deer before.

I had no idea I killed him the next year. Really? Wow. A couple of the photographers over there were taking some really good shots of him. Yeah, I mean, we're talking 50, 60 miles, so. That's cool. That's kind of neat. That's an awesome story. That is awesome. So, tell us about the kill scene. There I was. There I was. Crosshairs with orange in every portion of my reticle. You talk about angle. I had a 26-degree angle down. No kidding. And I had the Geovids and just, boom, 500.

I dialed to like 420, 440. Yeah. That was it? No problem? No problem. You didn't have to have a foot race there, somebody else tagging him. Nobody else shot. Nope, just glassed him up. I think, I mean, I think I actually filmed it. I hit record because I was alone. I wanted to know where I hit and everything. It was like two and a half minutes before I shot, getting ready, dialing, you know, all that. Was he bedded or moving? No, he was just feeding. Oh, wow. Just hiding by himself. You remember when Ponce got landowners? The tags were five to seven. That was early 2000s, because I was a biologist there, and I was dealing with them on a daily basis, and we went through a process between 2003 and 2005 of cutting tags. And it was a bloodbath. Between the locals, landowners. It's just landowners. You're talking about going from 40 posted hunting units that are now CWMU.

Yep, CWMU and Landowner Association was getting 30 to 40 tags, and we'd cut the public tags in half. You know, there was a group called the Friends of the Ponce and got informed, and they were just very adamant. We just were killing too many, or we want to issue less tags. Well, when you cut the public draw tags, the landowner tags are a year behind in the permit-setting cycle. So, then when you start going through that, boy, I mean, you're talking five or six grand a tag at times, you know, 40. Well, Lyle, my cousin, buy one every single year. He had muzzleloader rut hunt. Yeah, I was going to say, that's another thing that's gone. That's when the muzzleloader was. Muzzleloader rut hunt. It was unbelievable. That would be fun. It was the first week or sometimes 10 days where the calendar went. This is say October 30th, 31st to November 7th to 10th, you know. It was unbelievable.

And so, yeah, we went through that, cutting tags, and then it wasn't long that once you, it's just supply and demand, once the tags got cut in half, and over the next handful of years, quality did start to improve, and it wasn't long that those tags had doubled and tripled in price and quadrupled, and now they're almost 10 times. Like, so we're talking $40,000 pond scott tags. I mean, there's 20, 20-ish, 20 to 30, counting the conservation tags. But Adam, the cost of living goes up 3% a year. But that's only been 15 years that we're talking about. Nothing can catch upon the price increase of what big deer bring. Nothing, nothing. That's exponential.

Well, I just think there's been a lot of that kind of stuff that we've watched come and go, and we know. I used to have a good friend tell me, he says, ah, the best tag you ever have in your life comes into your mailbox every year. And he was talking about Utah General. Yeah, we had lifetime licenses. You get to pick whatever you want. But even back in the day when they basically were coming in your mailbox. Well, I just remember, I wasn't living in Utah then. I was on an LDS mission. My dad wrote me a letter, and it's like a week or 10-day lag, getting the letter, and then a week or 10-day lag, getting it back. And he wrote me and says, hey, they're going to stop selling Utah lifetime licenses. Do you want me to take some money out of your savings and buy it?

And they're 500 bucks. Yeah, they're 500 bucks. Okay. And I just remember, yeah, but I remembered it was like, I got it, and it was like, in four days, it was gonna be over. And I'm like, I hope he doesn't, because I can't write him a letter and get it back. There was no pick up the phone, there's no Skype, there's no text, there's no, nothing. This is early 90s. And thankfully, he did it, because I got home and I had a lifetime license for me and Aaron. He's like, son, you owe me 500, and then there was a little interest accruing while you were gone. I don't know, but I mean, at the time, it just, it was kind of a big decision. I mean, 500 bucks. It's huge. And you could buy, I mean, a deer tag was probably 15 bucks. I don't remember what they're doing. Well, if you remember, back then, the reason to buy it was a cost savings over your life.

That was all you evaluated. Nobody ever thought that general tags would go away. No. So, do I buy a lifetime? Well, they're not ever going to go away. They're only 15 or 20 bucks. And they're never going to go away. 20-something years. Look at the cost of Idaho tags that guys, like my dad regrets not buying a lifetime license. Yeah. A long time ago. Yeah. But just in price alone. But someday, those are all going away. Well, what do you do with the lifetime? Well, you give them their choice for the rest of their life. And that's what they're doing. Oh, now it's invaluable. Times change. And you've got to take advantage of what's in front of you and what's right on the plate. Eat what's in front of you. How about... How about... Just put something good in front of you. Another one I thought of is like when I was a kid, we... Any bull unit, we just...

We would go to Walmart, hop in the truck, and go. We did that on the LaSalle. Because it's private property, and now it's CWMUs, and guys in... That's right, CWMUs, the LaSalle. I mean, hunting private ground, period, all over the West. Now they're leased, they're different units, it's gone. I know. I scared a lot of bulls on the LaSalle. Offhand, I'd just see them and just pull up offhand. Same here. I mean, okay, so LaSalle is near and dear to my heart. It's big. I mean, any bull was good. I remember my dad shot some spikes. He shot a five-point one year, probably a three-year-old, maybe four, but a nice five. But Aaron and I had it mounted in our bedroom, and my whole life we looked at that. It's like it was so freaking big. Dude, sometimes a five-by-six won the big bull contest in Moab. Yes. I mean, that's what happened. Yeah.

Those were back in the human trail camera days. I was a human trail camera. Yeah. I sat in a lot of aspen trees, and do you remember what... Okay, so, speaking of which, harnesses have come a long ways, too. We had an inch and a half strap, sometimes just a white little rope around your waist. If you fell, you turn upside down. You're swinging in those aspens. You're swinging in them. I mean, geez. And so, yeah, I spent a lot of time in a tree stand. A lot of time. Yeah, that's right, Arch. Logging game. Now, Utah went through a pretty hotly contested, I don't know what you'd call it, public process. They were, you know, we've capped the general tags, I can't remember, 15,000, 20,000 in Utah for any bull. And the division was going to add a few more any bull units, where there's not really that many elk, and they were proposing going to unlimited. And the public shot it down.

They wanted to keep the quote in place. And we went from the days where Boulder, Boulder used to be a general. Oh, yeah. Boulder used to be a general. So did La Salle's. I don't know all of them. I was kind of young. It was like San Juan, Pavant, and Southwest Desert were kind of getting through. Yeah, San Juan had newly elk in the 88, 1987, 88. They turned them loose from Heart of Ranch. So, it was never anything but a limited entry. But there was a lot of our limited entry units in Utah. I would imagine like Fish Lake and Manti. I know Dutton was. Dutton was the general season bull.

And there wasn't big bulls like we think. No, it's not. It was just elk. Right. But back then, you could get an elk tag. Now, it's pretty hard. Elk tags are few and far between. Utah's gone the opposite direction. That's right. It's a quality. They have some general season stuff. And it is nice to have some quality stuff here and there. It is. I got one for you. So, how about Colorado in the 90s was over-the-counter deer hunts, over-the-counter on the west side, and see the only thing anybody ever talked about was It's eastern plains. The only thing. That's the only thing. Because it was over the counter. When you're statewide, probably west of I-25 was probably the line, because that's kind of the line now on the season structure stuff. Right. But you grew up in Moab. You're 20 miles from Colorado as a crow flies, an hour to drive. I'm 15 or 20, and I had some friends that lived

over, or had property over there, groundhog and all that, you know, 7-1, 7-11. And we We would hunt bulls over there, over the counter on their property. Oh, yeah. Like junior, senior, high school would go over there, wake up, smash over there, load up two or three bulls in one morning and drive home. Like, it was nothing. Oh, yeah. But it was, that was where I killed my first elk. They're just rag fives, but it was awesome. Didn't even ever think of buying a deer tag. I could have bought one over the counter. Because deer were what we had in Utah. It goes back to this, I have a lot of deer in Utah. Why would I go to college? I don't shoot a deer. I got good bucks on the San Juan right here. I don't have an elk. I don't have an elk. I don't have an elk. I got big bulls. They turned loose eight years ago.

I'm going to shoot anything I see over there, and now look at how that's turned. We're fighting to go to Colorado. How many people's plans revolve around Colorado deer every year? And they did bring the deer back. When they limited it, they did bring the deer back. It was crazy. Back then, in 1996, it was an extreme drought, and I remember drawing, you know, 142 out on the Eastern Plains. It was a public land Eastern Plains hunt, and it still is to this day, but it was one of the very few places that you could go that had big deer. And so, you'd go out there and hunt on an army base, Pinion Canyon army base with, they told you where to camp, and all of these kind of restrictions. And anyway... Nobody even applied for color. There wasn't enough places to intrigue you to apply for it. Pinion Canyon, a couple of those. I mean, you did. You and your dad were doing that probably before.

We did that. But very many people. Oh, yeah. But it wasn't until the late 90s or early 2000s. You wouldn't stop. You would hit I-70. You would never stop for deer until you got to Denver. I mean, you're not stopping. No. Or, you know, we went up through Trinidad. There's a whole long story behind that trip. Is that the one that was blizzard, and they put the gates down, and you drove around them? That was one of them. On the freeway, they're closing the freeways down? That was one of them. You had an old rancher? Well, it was an old rancher. He was like, I'll go if you go. And I'm like, let's go. And everybody had the schools open, and everybody was getting off of 25 and going into these small little communities and shacking up in the gyms. I mean, because it was such a giant snowstorm. But no, this is back when I had an old 89 Chev that was wore out before I even got it.

And I changed the ball joints in the parking lot in Trinidad. Broken glass everywhere, and I'm under there just cranking it. I mean, guys are like, we can't... I ate a tire up just getting there, just because everything was so loose. And they couldn't... they couldn't... what do you call it? They couldn't... Couldn't kick you out. No, what do you call it? You freaking get...align them. You couldn't align them. Oh, not with ball joints. No, not with everything. So, anyway, I replaced some parts, and an alternator went out, and I was out in the hills, and I had to go get an alternator and replace it in the hills. Yeah, it was just one of those college kid days where I had, you know, wasted 14, 15 points on a wazoo unit and seen a 210-incher and never got it killed because I was a kid, you know? Big ol' headline. I can still see the data.

So, anyway, lots of change, just crazy amount of change. And so, everybody, we're seeing more non-resident limitations on stuff in Wyoming, you know, G and H, and they want more quality, and so they keep cutting non-resident tags and trying to continue to let residents hunt over the counter. And that's going to end, too, residents. That's going to end. I mean, we're not anti-Wyoming residents. We're just bringing it up as a, that's one of the last holdouts. I mean, they're in Idaho. Idaho made the step this year to make the non-residents go to a draw, sub-quote draw, we'll call it. I mean, and it'll never go back. It just won't. And everybody jumps in and... Might as well be a draw. Might as well be a draw. And, you know, you got, remember back in the, well, it was still, some of this stuff isn't very long ago. The early 2000s, mid-2002 to 5 or 6, that AR-301 in Utah. Oh, yeah.

How many is it, like 15 or 20 limited entry units? Yes, and there wasn't points associated with it, so if you chose to do that, you didn't get elk points. Yeah, like in Utah's residence, we always, we still have to choose between deer or elk or antelope. You got to choose one species. So, I was locked into my elk chase. You were probably the time, because you were a couple years ahead of me. You burned years. So, if you did limited entry elk, you couldn't put in for AR-301. But guys that were applying for deer could just crush the AR-301 every year. That was an elk elk. And no points, and you could hunt the archery season and hunt 15 or 20, the Boulder, Dutton, all these units. They were halfway decent, even though they They weren't managed like they are now. They were still halfway decent.

Hadn't had quite enough time since the any bull days to really get giant bulls, but they were starting... What years was that? Early 2000s. I think I still got regulations from those days. Not that much earlier than the glory days for elk in Utah, really. No, right after that ended. Right after that ended, and they kind of started drawing the tag, and then they added archery only on the unit, and that's when it peaked. What I think is crazy is when you go through these times, like say, the amazing times in Utah for Elk, did you ever think they'd end? No. Ever? Passing 380 goals? 2004, 5, 6, 7, did you ever think, I mean, wow, we're rewriting the record book. We got so numb, like a 370 or 80 bull. That's how we can't, oh, that's all they killed. We can't even get Wyatt off center because he's put his hands on so many clients, giants. Wyatt, tell us about it.

And now he's a Boone and Crockett scorer, so he still gets to glean the best of the best. Every year he gets to hold them from Utah and neighboring states. So, he's like, why would I want to go to Nevada? They only have 380 bulls. Yeah, I know. It's not like that at all. 380 is always a giant bull, but Utah was, we were spoiled here for a while. I mean, it was producing double-digit 400-plus-inch bulls a year, and now it seems like if we see... One, two. Yeah, two, three, four a year, it's a great year. Well, and it was a great year at three and four. Yeah. Well, it is. Mm-hmm. This year. Great, right? There was times we'd kill, they would kill, Six, seven, four hundred plus on one unit. Yeah, exactly. Just line up. Nuts. Pavan. Maybe seven. You're hunting four hundred bulls, and just everything else is three ninety, three eighty, whatever. It was awesome.

So, that's what we've seen with Colorado. When the mid-Bronce, mid-2000s, we're over there hunting Colorado. It's unbelievable. You think those days will never end. Now, we're looking at late season dates with coming on the heels of some of the couple of the worst seasons we've ever seen. And no tag numbers change, other than maybe even increasing tags because they're afraid of CWD, and so they're increasing tags to even knock the age down a little bit more. Okay, perfect example. And now late season dates. When Colorado went to a draw late 90s by 2003 or 2004, 2004 was my first year hunting, maybe about you, three or four. Yeah. And we thought, what, where has this been? Why have I not heard of this? It was, the first year I went there, it was a giant, I mean, it dumped three, four feet here in Utah. Unbelievable. And I get over there,

and I'm hunting 43, and it has 14ers all over the place. Well, the deer, they can't. 14ers, meaning 14,000 foot peaks. Yes. And I've never seen anything to this day, a deer hunt like that. And you killed a 33-inch, 200-inch plus buck. I mean, but I saw deer as good or bigger. I mean, I did. Some of them were in the fields already, because there was just snow everywhere, and you just thought, this is gonna change my life. I remember I was 30 years old. I was 30 years old that year, roughly. I was almost 31. I stayed, because I remember, I killed my first 30-inch buck when I was 30. That sticks in my mind.

And, you know, that just does. But, the next year, the season dates kicked a week later, and I remember, and we were drawn tags, and those tags as second choice. Remember, the Landlord tags, what were they, two to three, four hundred bucks? Oh, yeah. We'd have stacks of Landlord tags. Like, literally, that deep. Yeah. Because you could transfer them back then. Well, and they could just... They could apply for leftovers and get a pile of them. Yeah, we had... They were cheap. We had a lot of clients that wanted tags, and... The next year, we drew it as a leftover again, and went there with the dates, It's ratcheted six days later like it does in Colorado. We thought this here and it. We hunted seven days, the last seven, and I shot like a 25 or six inch heavy tall old four by three, and that was the only buck we saw. Warm, hot, dry the whole time. That's

when I realized dates don't mean everything in Colorado. The weather trumps dates. But then to fast forward it all till 2020, we're talking about, I mean, that's why everybody We got into a frenzy, and a lot of people started putting in for Colorado Heavy at that point, and have drawn, and maybe trying to go back. It's just not the same in 2020. It's not as ripe. Well, and now we're giving more and more tags, later season dates. Why don't we just go over the counter, crash it again, and then we'll recycle it, and then that cycle will come back. I mean, really, I'm telling you, Game and Fish does not care about quality, and that's why you've got these little localized deer groups like Gunnison Basin and whatnot that fight so hard, Because they know what it once was. They know what it could be. And not 50s and 60s. We're talking 2000s. I mean, you had some winners mixed in there,

but there's always going to be heavy winners, and there's going to be opportunities to rebound from those. But, yeah, I mean, it's... Go over the counter. Just do over the counter, Colorado. Get it over with. Purge everybody's points and start over at zero. Seriously. Purge the deer herd. Purge the deer herd. Mine are at zero, anyway. Take care. People get ticked enough that they'll make them change. They'll make them change. You know, we got wolves coming and everything else going on. Just purge it, crash it, and then everybody is up in arms, even the opportunists, the people that aren't trophy hunters, they'll get on our side too, and we'll make a change. That's what I think. That's what needs to happen. Let's push for it. So, anyway, there's just, it's crazy to watch it. So, sometimes we're We're talking about year to year, there's not much change. There's always change happening.

And then all of a sudden, you wake up and you're like, wow, where'd those days go? Archery deer in Arizona. We think right now that'll never get away with that. If you were at all answer that right now. You mean over the counter tax? The archery. If you'd asked me now, I'm like, yeah, there's enough places around. I can't see that going away. Who knows? Nothing is safe. And there's some amazing hunting, those coos deer guys that live for that hunt, they're rutting. And I can see, you just can't see how that would happen, but we said the same thing about our deer in the 90s, that we're never gonna have to draw a $500 lifetime license as a borderline, you know, whether that's worth it or not in your lifetime. We thought that. So, you just don't know what's in front of you that you better be taken more advantage of.

Well, you know... How about working out in a gym? We got a gym owner. There's a gym owner getting a 1.2 million dollar fine for keeping his doors open. They said the news said the governor's name at lunch. We didn't know that governor's name, so it wasn't... Yeah, 1.2 million dollar fine. Refused to mask up or make his patrons mask up. 1.2 million dollar fines for defying Governor Murphy's coronavirus lockdown orders. Chris, you might look up Murphy. Governor Murphy. Where is he from?

I'm just telling you, you never... Here's my point. Okay, here's my point. Your freedoms get stripped from you. You don't even know you wake up one day and you can't go buy groceries without a mask on. You can't... And I'm not saying it's good battery in between. I'm just saying, you just don't know the stuff you take for granted. Go on and out to eat at a restaurant, for heck's sakes. How about this? Back when I was in school, and I still like to do it, shed hunting.

Now you gotta take a course, online course, you got seasons. I have to take a course. I can't even go to Nevada. Let's list the states. Yeah, what states? And I'm scared of snakes, so at that point, I'm done. Nevada, Colorado, Wyoming. I don't know about Idaho, but those three, Nevada, Colorado, Wyoming, at least. Well, and Utah was doing a- Utah for some years and heavy years. That's right. And, okay, again. We had the director on to talk about that because it was like- We're our own worst enemy because people are driving cross-country and harassing wildlife or whatever. When there was deep snow, but I mean- But would you ever guess that they would go to that? Good example, Archibald, yeah. I gotta make sure when my- Every year, my boy takes that class, but you gotta have that certificate with you. Yeah. You're going out with your buddies.

And then when it opens, everybody goes because it's the opener and you have limited time instead of just wide open whatever. Good example. Shed hunting. Yeah. 20 years ago, if you told me you're gonna have to... Okay, you gotta get permit, draw permits to hunt Antelope Island for sheds. I remember, well, just use permits, Forest Service and BLM permits, Bronson. I mean, there was people in the 90s. There wasn't such a thing, really. Huh? No. I mean, there might have been, but it wasn't a thing. No pleased it. It wasn't a thing. And now you've got a guide license, special use permits in 14 different jurisdictions. So, anyway. Good example, Archibald, the shed hang was spot on. You can't just wake up and say, I'm going to go shed hunting today. I would have graduated college like five years earlier if they would have done that a couple years. You say you might have made something yourself.

Well, we're happy to have you here, Archibald. Why it knows? Instead, you had a pile of sheds. Yeah, most of them are gone now in China or somewhere. Dog cheers. They made a lot of people feel really good. I don't know. Who knows where they're at now? I don't know. That was New Jersey. Was it New Jersey? Really? Poor guy. We should set up a GoFundMe account. I'm sure he's already got 14 of them set up. Hopefully he does. But crazy. I got one I remember. 2007, I drew second choice, a 44, private land only deer tag. There you go. Did John draw that too? Yeah. Both of you. Is that the buck in his office? Uh-huh. Huh? The big 191-incher? Yeah. Second choice. Second choice. Yep. I don't know what to say. It's that kind of scenario though has happened recently,

Bronson, the last five years in Colorado. You just said 2007, and we're talking about 13 years ago. You could hunt 13A and the Kaibab every year over the counter. That's not, this isn't, we're talking about our grandpas. Yeah. I missed the biggest buck I've ever shot out in 07 in Colorado. Did you? Never forget it. No way. That was the year we killed Chief. Zero point unit. I drew it two years in a row. What unit was it? 33. Oh yeah. There's good potential there, but man, what a great deal.

Grinder. Well, wow. But I'm telling you, I saw bucks. It was awesome. It was right. So right. Did you ever go back? That's when I killed that. You've never been back? I haven't been back. Yeah, it's not that good. Started hunting elk in November. Guiding elk, them dang elk, getting away deer. How about back when you could apply in Nevada's guide draw and in the regular draw for deer, get two points, go in both draws. I would do it every year. Get two points. I would do it. I was, you know, just to get two. I did too. Because what you really wanted, you put in for the good units and the You got your point a month early, so you had your point, extra points squared for the regular draw. That's like 10 years ago. And you could get two points a year in the early parts of that.

Yeah, and then they did away with the two points, but you could do the guide draw, get your points, so it added to your total to be squared for the regular draw. It's a fact. It's like 10 years ago. We're not talking about stuff 30 years ago. I do remember that. We did it. I did it. Now you can't hang a camera on a tree after July 31st. Or walk around between the months of whatever. Oh, and pick up an old white bone. It's not attached to a skull. From January 1 to May 1, U-tards are not allowed there. Anyway. And then you get trail cameras for two months, and then we're not allowed there for a little bit again. It's just the restrictions. We're not picking on the matter. We're just pointing everything out. No, no. And the most heavily restricted professional sport or sport there is, is hunting.

Think about it. I mean, start, stop. Beginning and the end, daily hours. Daily hours depending on the day of the month, the day of the year, whatever. Down to the caliber. I mean, you can't even use a .45 caliber muzzleloader in Colorado for elk or something. But those, you put a .400 grain bullet, you can't tell me that's not going to hurt something. You know what I mean? Tell me I'm wrong. Huh? That? I wouldn't want to be in front of that. I'm just saying, there's lots of crazy stuff going on, lots of stuff that we've seen. So, yeah, what's next? You just got to be... And it doesn't need to be a complete opportunity like an Idaho general, like an over-the-counter archery deer in Arizona that we're thinking of. It can just be your backyard elk general elk unit that you got in your state right now that's like, I'm killing some good bull.

So, you ride the wave before it crests, and you got flat water. Take advantage, full advantage of what you got, for sure. I don't know. Buy $25,000 tags, because next year they might be $35,000. I don't know. Is that what you guys are talking about? Buy $25,000 tags, and next year they might be $50,000. Or they might not be available at all. Idaho. I just sat here and thought about if they took something away that I'd be mad I didn't take advantage of, like Arizona hunter safety, extra point.

Yeah, there you go. If they took that away tomorrow, I'd be so mad. Well, this year, like, I've talked to a lot of people that are wondering what they're doing. I'm like, I don't know, good luck getting a good answer because they're not having in-person stuff. And so, it's temporarily been off limits for the last probably year. I don't know. I went down with my whole family and did the course with my whole family. Called it a family vacation. Two days. Told Jana we were going to Arizona. She was excited. We pulled up to the 100. The education building. In Kingman, beautiful Kingman. Sandwiches on the tailgate, babe. It's kind of like me when I took the family vacation. First time I ever been to Hawaii, went to Hawaii, toting guns. You took the gun cases over there. That's hilarious, too.

No, but I didn't tell anybody. Becky knew, of course. The kids knew, and it was for the kids, right? Yeah. After the first two days there, I sent a picture to my parents of dead axes, dear. And they're like, only you can get away with that. Go to Hawaii with your family and your hunts. Sounds like Wyatt's Sunday drives, sneaking a pair of 10s in there. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But if the spotting scope goes in there, it's gonna tip her off that it's not just a Sunday drive, I'm scouting. Yeah, exactly. So, you can slip the pair of 10s in there and maybe get away with it. But if you put the spotting scope, everything else in there, it's a deer spotting trip. She looks at you just say, you know, sometimes the sunsets are neat to look through a binoculars. Yeah, you never know. You never know.

Never know what you're gonna see. Yeah. Never know. Never know when you need them. Did you ever go back and video that, dear? I've been at the office daylight till dark. Oh, I know. You won't even, you're not even gonna go video at Turner Denture? No, I'll get back out there. Give me an Onyx pin. I'll get back out there. Hey, I work here too. I can figure out a video of that thing. We haven't been here out of the daylight either. No, but we get a lunch hour. We might have to forego a bad sushi trip. I don't know. Yeah. All right. Right, well, lots of things changing. I don't know, it's one of those crazy things. I just think you guys need to take advantage of stuff while you can. Because all of this stuff is going to change, and you're going to look back on opportunities that you have now.

A dedicated hunter might go away, I don't know. That allows us to hunt all three seasons. How excited are we about that? And then, what if that went away? That would suck, right? The ability to hunt all seasons in Nevada on land or tags, that would suck for deer. So, you can hunt multiple deer, you can kill one with a lantern tag, a draw tag, whatever. So, there's just things that we do still take for granted, even though things change for the worse. And we've seen a lot of change over the last five years. Exactly, and the budget-oriented guys, you know, it's mostly the cost that has changed in multiple states. Just that alone. Look at Idaho this year. I mean, bumping the deer tag price, bumping the non-resident license to, what, $185? You know, application fees for the big three are like $45, plus convenience fees on top of that at $2,600.

If you're at $300 and something bucks, non-affordable. Yeah, you were adding it up, $300 and something non-affordable. $315-ish to put it in for moose sheep and goats as a non-resident. And I know everybody that's there, wah, wah, wah, don't apply then. I'm just pointing out nothing stays the same, and when you're... And you might not apply. Yeah. Now that we're not necessarily getting a general... I bought a three-year license, so I'm committed for three years. Well... Because I saw that coming to an end. But you do a three-year license now, you're just back in at the normal rate. So, Bronson did it just one year prior. You brought up earlier the Wyoming sheep, the climb. No, the $7 point days, and... Or just, if you had just had the foresight, and I realize part of it is you've got to be old enough and aware enough and in the application game to know they're starting a point system.

But that's one Carter and I kick ourself about. Well, yeah. I mean, we didn't get on the ground floor, and so when they started going to 75 bucks, it was like, I don't think I'm going to get it. I still wish I would have kept, because I think I could have it tagged by now. Yeah, yeah. It cost me a sheep doing just, you know, there's a couple regrets. We all have a few regrets, and we should have a podcast on that. But that's one of mine. What song would we have, maybe, for regrets? I don't know. I'll have to think about it. Chris? You're good at those. You have good jingles on our Instagram about tying a nice song to go with something. We could probably get a Ray Wiley Hubbard song for that. A little Cinderella today kind of applied, but you know, we get something that regrets. I don't know. I don't know, but let's leave you on another little note.

Here we go, Devin. You gonna sway? I don't think so. No? Maybe. Give it 30 more seconds. Yeah. Don't know what you got till it's gone, boys. Might have been a good podcast to call up some old timers, you know, cold call. Yeah, a little poorly lit high school cafeteria dance That's all right here. Even the next generation above you two. Older than us? Older than us. Are those guys still alive? There's got to be one or two kicking around somewhere. I'd have to tell my dad what the podcast was before I cold called him on the podcast. What's a podcast, Adam? Just talk to me, Dad. Just talk. I'll tell you later. Some things you just don't want to change.

But it's coming.

Right, Chris? That's right. That's enough. Let's go to work.

All kinds of things accomplished.