EP 185: How to Pick the Best Optics for Your Hunts

From reticle types to magnification. There's some inexpensive binoculars, you know, all the different manufacturers make. A less expensive line. Probably going to look at a smaller objective, 65mm. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, Devin and Wyatt, we got them here too. Going to do some fun stuff today, talk about some optics. A stacked house, yeah, kind of a fun one. Break down and go through opinions and strategies and do's and don'ts and why's and how's, I guess. All right, well, before we get started, we'd like to thank Under Armour for sponsoring this podcast and ourselves. How about that? Epic Optics. Epic Optics, yeah. We're talking about optics. We sell optics. All different shapes, sizes, types. And if you need it, we got it here at Epic Outdoors. So as we go through this stuff, which we are going to talk about optics, then we want you to be thinking about anything that you might need.

And if you want us to visit a little bit, want to visit about it a little bit more, feel free to give us a holler and just know that we sell these things as well. We use them very aggressively in the field. So optics is one of the largest parts of hunting. I mean, that's probably the most amount of gear used is in the optics section. And usually when you acquire optics, you don't get rid of them, right? Okay. I mean, you keep them. You build upon them. It's kind of like guns in a safe. They're like assets. Isn't that what you've used on Janna before? Okay, yeah. They are and they don't devalue, right? As time goes along, at least that much. And when you got women and children that all need optics, I mean, you got kids. How many kids we got? Huh? A lot of them. You have to ask. A lot of them. Let me think. Just remind me. I got four kids coming up through the ranks.

They all think they need 15s, 10s, 12s, spotters, BTXs. And so you kind of stockpile stuff knowing that they're going to come of age. Well, yeah. I mean, like you go through the SLCs and then the ELs and then NLPers. What I'm saying is like they're all great, especially for kids. I mean, we didn't start off on SLC 10s. I've got a pair of those kicking around. My boy's using them and he's spoiled. Mine were Redfield 10x50s. Mine were like Bausch and Lomb 7x35s or whatever the crap they were. We thought they were awesome. They're terrible. Well. And even the lower end optics. I had a pair. I had to close one eye just to see through it. Did you? I don't know what it was. I had a couple pairs that had been dropped a few times. You had to close an eye. Really work them hard. How about the Jasons? Remember the permanent focus Jason binoculars? They were called Jason. Permanent focus.

Give you a migraine in 10 minutes. I know. Well, and you know, I started off my kids. There's some inexpensive binoculars. You know, all the different manufacturers make a little bit less expensive line. And, you know, I started my kids off on some Diamondbacks and Vortex Diamondbacks. Those are better than anything I was raised on. Everything that I started with. I mean, so anyway, for a couple hundred bucks, you can be in the game, you know, and still have a decent binocular. And so times have changed. I mean, it's 2020 heading to 2021, thankfully. Thankfully. And so with that, we've got a lot of great optics, even at a cheaper price. But as we go through, you know, kind of how to pick the right pair of binoculars for your needs. That's right. So power-wise and brand-wise and the line, you know, a line of optics within a particular brand. Vortex is offering all kinds of different lines.

You've got Diamondbacks. Vipers, Razors, Razors HD. UHD. I mean, and most optics companies have that. You know, like we've ran through Swarrow. Zeiss has got, you know, Conquest and Victories. And, I mean, it's just difference in quality of glass and coatings and all that. And, you know, like we've just talked about, we've all lived through different progressions of whether what you can afford to use or what you even need to use them on. Because sometimes, you know, you're in high school. All you need is you don't need much. It felt like binoculars were a gift. I shed hunted so much with never had vinyls. And you just shed hunted. Just walked. And what you saw with your 30 to 40 yards is what you found. I don't know. Now it's like I sit in glass, you know, a lot. You know, on big mountains for elk. You can glass. You can pick up an elk at a half mile on a burnt hillside, you know, shit.

You know, so anyway. It's just different. So, yeah. It definitely needs to tailor what you use it for. It's probably the number one question we ask. Especially maybe on rifle scopes and spotting scopes. Like, what's your number one? What's the bulk of what you're going to use it for? Because if a guy is a backpack hunter for, you know, black-tailed deer, mule deer, sheep, or goat, you're probably going to look at a smaller objective, 65-millimeter spotting scope type thing versus a 95 or a 115. Good point. Same thing with the power on your binoculars. I mean, I knew guys were going to Alaska for moose. They took eights. They loved them. They're fine. What do you need? I mean, you're looking for moose. What do you guys take? Your 65? Or did you take that? We took our 65s, my spotting scope, and then I just had, you know, my EL ranges for binoculars.

Just because you don't need a 95 lugging around up there for a moose. They're 65 or 70 inches wide. You didn't need binoculars to see them where we were. No. Finally. You didn't even need a scope. But I did have the 15s up all the time. Yeah. Looking downriver at his moose when we found holes. Trying to catch them. Yeah, those are different. But, yeah. So, it's nice to have some versatility to take something for that hunt. Like, you don't need your 95. You know, unscrew it. Put a 65 on. Go that way. And then, you know, getting into the rifle scopes, and we'll get into that a little bit. There's, then it just broadens even wider from reticle types to magnification to, you know, turrets and, you know. That's right. Clarity. You know, and that's another thing is we were talking about, like for Zeiss, the V4 line. I mean, with the internal workings being incredible, you know, yeah.

Do you look through your rifle scope all the time? It's not like you're set up glassing through it all the time. It's just a kill. I have V4 line of scope on a lot of my rifles. My kids' rifles. Because, you know, the internal workings are awesome. You know, there's not that much difference between the V4 and the V6 other than the optical clarity. And so, why not go with a little bit, you know, a little bit more cost-effective lineup there? Yeah. Especially, it's the same turret, same body, just different glass. So, yeah. There's a lot to consider when you're picking optics and whatnot. And so, anyway, a lot of my hunts this year, you know, I used the 12s. And I've learned how to, and Bronson, we've talked about this, learned how to hand-hold 12s. Whereas when we first, you know, put them up to your eyes, you're like, oh, you know, you notice the shake a little bit.

Harder to hold them steady. But I've got used to it. I don't even think anything about it. I'm throwing my 12s on a tripod. I've got them around my neck in a bino harness. And I'm not even using 10s and 15s. But, you know, I do have them. I mean, I still have them in the back seat. You just, you know, you never know what happens, trip and fall or whatever. Well, if we're going to, I guess, break through this, let's maybe break it down a little bit. Let's start off talking about binos. You know, how to pick the right pair of binos for your needs. I think it kind of to start with, buy the best you can afford. Everybody, we've all been 18, 21. And then, you know, you get older from there. And hopefully you can start to save a little bit of money and be able to buy better. And we all go through that progression. Everybody. Newlyweds. Newlyweds. But they're 30-something-year-old newlyweds.

They already had all their optics. I remember buying my first spotting scope, going to the bank, and I was shaking, scared. Because of how much money I was spending. Really? That thing. And I got a lot of mileage out of that spotting scope. It was literally like an investment to me. I mean, it was a big deal back then. Mine, too. My first major optical investment was that Leica Televid 77. Same thing. And it had the fine-tune adjust. And it was a silver body. I'm taping it up with a 77-millimeter objective. Back then, I loved it. It seemed big and long. It changed our lives, man. It changed our lives. Using something you had to, you know. So I had my Redfield 10x50s and my Leica Televid 77. And I thought I was, you know. Anyway, and we were. Those were a great optic anyway. But yeah. So buy the best you can afford when you can afford it. That's the mantra.

I mean, in general, the more you spend, the better you're going to get. That isn't a sales pitch. That isn't a, oh, smoke and mirrors. It's true. And that's with every optics company. You get the components, the glass, the coatings, all increase with price. That's why a pair of Diamondbacks costs less than Razor UHDs. Or SLCs are cheaper than NLPers. It's just a different progression. So buy the best you can afford. But then it kind of comes down to what type of hunting you're going to do most. And sometimes, you know, maybe us Westerners, there's not one binocular that does it all. There isn't. I mean, we need 15s a lot of times off a tripod. And 10s or 12s on your neck, especially bow hunting. You don't want 15s to just walk into thick timber and, you know, bugle elk in at 50 yards. That doesn't work. Or tree stands. Yeah, or tree stands. Blinds.

You know, you're talking white-tail hunters. A lot of them use 8s. And if I was a white-tail hunter, probably all I'd ever have. Well, honestly, I've been thinking about 8s recently. And I know. So in the West, generally, you know, it's been taboo to think of anything under 10s. Generally, 10s is the what? It's just funny. Yeah, taboos. But we're going to talk about why you like 8s right now. I'm just ready to hear it. Okay. But so what I'm saying is, as you get going, and I've been using the 12s. So go back to the 12s. I've been using the 12s. But there's a place for a lower power bino. And like you're saying, you're in a blind. We did blind hunting with my kids this year. I mean, you're looking, you know, 20 to 50 to 100 yards is a long ways. And so, you know, there's a place for the 8s or 10s. But anyway, with these, I was thinking about the NL, pure 8s. I'm telling you.

I mean, I've got the 12s. I want the 8s because the 10s are so close to a 12. I don't, you know what I mean? I don't need both of those. If you're going archery out counting somewhere in timber, like I keep going back. My dad, he's had 8s. He's got 10s too. But he started his first pair of binos we found hunting shed. He bought 8 by, I think, 8 by 30 SLCs or 8 by 42s. Or 8 by 42s or something. Anyway, he bought them. And he was pretty much a bow hunter only and traditional bow hunter. So you're not even trying to hear. You're saying he didn't need a pair of binos.

He could see with his eye as good as what his binos. But my point is, if you're a bow hunter only, yeah, 8 or 10 power binos are probably what you need. If you're hunting timber and all that now. Or in a tree stand. But nowadays. But if you're glass and mule deer, though, you need that for when you make the stock. But you're going to have to have 15s to find them. My bow hunting arsenal, I've got the big old tripod. 10s or 15s or 12s plus a spotter. And you're bow hunting. Because we're glassing nowadays. I mean, we're learning to glass them, bed them, stock them. And then once you're taking off, then you may just have a pair of 8s or 10s on your neck. It's nice. You've got a little bit bigger field of view. You're not bigging something at 80 yards pulling up a pair of 12s or 15s on something. I've never done that. I've never done that. Really? 15s at 110 yards. He looked giant.

And he died. And I'll never do it again. It's happened. Oh, it's happened. It happens with sheep. It can happen with deer. Moving right along. Learn from it. Don't take too high a power binos at 100 yards. See a couple of bumps. Mistake them for cheaters. And dump them. A group of velvet hanging. I've done that before. I killed a 5x6. It was.

I mean, the most incredible genetic. I've never talked about this on a podcast, by the way. But the most incredible genetic 5x6 I've ever seen. And, you know, anyway. Two and a half year old probably. No, call him three and a half, though. I mean, it was a sad day. It was just because. Too close. Dude, it was back when Colorado was amazing. Okay. 2005. 5 or 6. Oh, yeah. It happens. So, anyway. The 8s on the NLs with the increased field of view. You know, like we talked to Kobe on the podcast. There's something to do with your eyes are built best for 8s. 8s are built best for your eyes, so to speak. And with the increased field of view, there's a perception of higher power. You guys were all standing here. We're looking at two and a half miles. You were blown away. I was blown away. I'm thinking there's a place for them. And that's what I've just been prepping Jenna for. I told her.

I said, Jenna, like, we're over there in Colorado. I'm like, okay, look through these. She's like, whoa. I said, the 8s would be really good right here. You know. It's the situation. It's becoming clear. And we have a set on the shelf, and I'm thinking those need to be in my truck. You'll have to keep an eye on those. Yeah. So, in regards to binos, I think everybody needs either 8s or 10s. Or a small range, a small type, shorter range bino. Chest carry bino. Chest carry bino. And if you learn how to use the 12s, and you can use that for a long range bino and a short range bino, great. If not, most people are using an 8 or a 10, most of them 10s, as a chest bino. And then a pair of 15s. 15s here in the West, you've got to have a pair of 15s. And then you go to the big guys, the BTXs. 15 to 18 are pretty much standard operating gear out here. Not just sheep.

I mean, sheep or deer or some cases elk. Elk and evening. You know, you're sitting, you're looking for two to four miles for, you know, a piece of plywood on a hill, but he's barely covered in pinoon trees. He's got five foot Manzanita, unit 23. That I just got done with. That's right. That was terrible. I bet I'd spend 85% of my time behind 15s. Same here. Almost, yeah. But would you ever give up your 10s? Would you only go with 15s? Never. No. Never? You'll never leave the house. You can't. If you had to pick one or the other, what would you pick? I'd learn to use my 15s handheld probably. I would. I wouldn't like it when you go to kill. I don't like that big heavy thing on your chest and everything's big. But you've got to find them first or you can't even start stock. And I learned how to put 10s on a tripod and anyway, so there was some of that.

But I think on top of that is so, so then you, then I think comes into, you know, a price range. I mean, you've got, you've got, you know, Vortex that has some great lineup, lineup of products that have these Razor UHDs, the 10s. They got the 18s. I've got a good buddy. He's using the 18s. He, he prefers them over, say, a Swirl 15. The extra three power. He was hunting javelina, different things. And he just felt like, man, they outperformed for what he was using for his application. I know another, a lot of other guys, they would not go to a pair of 18s, even though you got three more power, they're going to stick with an SLC or say even the Zeiss Conquest. My kids, they're killing it with the Zeiss 15s. And it comes with a tripod adapter. I mean, so for $1,450, $1,500, you end up with a pair of 15s and a $150 tripod vinyl adapter with that. So, great options.

I think you've got to say 10s, 15s, and a spotter. And then now, what am I, and then how deep are you going to go? Dude, your brother, he's using SLC 10s from way back? Yeah, he has. You know, it kind of goes back to what Wyatt was saying earlier. Not going to live without your 15s. And literally, when we're hunting mule deer and sheep, which we probably hunt that more than anything, you're behind your 15s 80% plus of the time. And when do you need your 10s? When you're going to kill something. Well, okay. So, you got ELs or SLCs. They're both good glass. It's not as big, not as critical. You already know where it is. It's already bedded down. You're just going to kill it with your hunter or you yourself. So, the 15s, you can't live without it. So, maybe spend a little more money.

I guess what I'm hearing, spend a little more money on the glass that you're using 80% of the time, 50, 60, 70, 80% of the time. And if there's a budget involved, and then you can go a little lighter on your 10s or something like that. The biggest thing is the range. Or the range at which you're going to use your binocular. You know, if it's bow hunting, tree stand hunting, things like that. If you're archery out hunting. 50 to 100 yards. Or if you're, you know, all-encompassing in the west, you probably better go with a 10 or 12. But then it comes, then you've got the question of, do you want a range finder in your bino as well? And that's a whole other subject. A whole other subject. Let's dive in there. Yeah. Wyatt would not leave the office without a range finding bino. Yeah, I've been pretty, you know, set on the range finding binocular just because I like to have both there.

It makes it easy. You don't have to remember to take a range finder as well. Just click the button and go. When I'm guiding, everything like that just makes it super easy and quick. But these guys are doing a good job at talking us to go to the NL Pures and pack a range finder. I mean, it's all personal preference. Well, we like to force our opinions on others. Yeah. We've noticed that here at the office. I almost bought a truck the other day. Well, you need to buy a truck. Okay, let's talk about trucks. Let's not go down that road. Let's talk about trucks real quick. Do you have one that's operable that you would drive from here to Colorado? It could get me to lunch. Colorado, I didn't make it. Okay. I think you need one. Yeah. Back to the optics. Let's get off. Get off the truck thing. I think I have. I've always had range finding binoculars.

I think a lot of it is what you're doing with it. Like personally, I could have a handheld. But with clients and guiding a lot, it's so quick and easier. And when I say 500 yards, they can dial the five. Instead of 13.6 or whatever, it's a little more confusing. But we can get into the turrets and that. But I think that's why. Well, I think the game has changed a lot with the smart range finders. Let's call them. Now you've got a guy that's got a specific load or whatever. You know, it's one thing to say it's 500. And we can all do that still, and that's good. But some guys are saying, yeah, but it's 500. But I've just got an MOA turret. Like what do you want me to dial to? And you would need to have his load loaded into your app, which Bluetooth to your bino. And so it's kind of – and now you've got, what, 10 or 15 clients a year. I mean, so anyway, the game's changed a lot.

And so everybody's setup is totally unique. You know, it was popular, Bronson. I mean, we know that you've even had it where turrets were cut for yardages and a specific elevation. Oh, yeah. I mean, we first started that way. I'd have a 5,500 and like an 8,500. Different turret. That I would put on. If I go to Colorado, I'd put an 8,500. Because normally you're that or maybe a little higher. I'd been as high as 95 or 10. But like then you've got to go to Mexico. What do you get, 500 feet? Yeah. You know, you're nothing. Negative 500. Hawaii. We took my kids to Hawaii one year. You're zero, 100, whatever. Well, yeah. And so, and thick air, thick air, thick, humid air. And so that gets into the whole next level discussion. So the more people learn, the smarter the equipment gets. The smarter the equipment gets, it also changes it for a guide. Yeah.

Like, you know, the old classic EL ranges and things like that, you know, calculated the range. But it's just, you know, and that would work in most cases. And you do need a basic range finder. But then there's. Precision. Angle ranging. Yeah. There's angle ranging. There's elevation. There's humidity, barometric pressure. All the different little variables that collectively can add up. Like you said, going from sea level to 11,000 feet with hot temperature or cold temperature, you know, humid air, dense humid air, thin high air. All those things, you know, we have ways to measure them either in a handhold, you know, range finder or starting as we've seen in the last few years. These optics companies producing those within the range finding binos. And it's changing every year. It's changing right now.

It's changing very rapidly the amount of precision that we can incorporate into our calculations for hold, yardage, or dial. And some of these companies are coming out with some new products. And you guys are going to have to upgrade no matter if you want to or not. We are too. You're going to have to because as things progress, people expect it. Clients expect it. We expect it. Well, and you want it. I mean, it's kind of like the, you know, brand new NLs. Like if it's better than an EL that you have, aren't you going to want that? Yeah. If you can afford it or maybe somebody sells their ELs, okay. You want the best. If you can afford the best, you want that. It's not like saying, yeah, that's great, but I'm going to stick to my 1991 Toyota truck. Okay. Well, then they were awesome. And I want one of those too.

But having said that, there are some smart binoculars and products, and I don't, you know, can't say too much yet. But anyway, they're going to come out very cost effective that are going to be incredible pieces of gear. That's right. And I think, you know, it's kind of crazy what we expect out of our gear, you know, five years ago, ten years ago. The cut turret, I was using the BRH reticle in a Swarrow scope, and I would just tape the thing on the side of my stock of where those lines would come in. 673 is line number five. And you know what I mean? And you just kind of did it, and you guesstimated roughly. I never missed an animal that I remember with that gun. It's still mounted on that .300 Ultra. But you haven't shot it in how long? Okay. Five years. And part of that is because I want the smarter stuff. But I never missed. No, that's my point. It's not that you're missing.

It's just that maybe something's a little better or more precise. And the dialing, and now I'm dialing to that yardage, and I don't have to gap shoot. And we all started with reticles lines. I mean, I think all of us in this office, maybe not you younger guys. And there's still a place for that, too. There's still a place for that. There's a lot of guys. I've still got a couple of guns. And if you want a very – I do, too. And so if you want a very affordable, long-range setup that, you know, again – so some of this, we expect a lot out of our gear and out of ourselves. And so, you know, but at the same time, I've had a guy tell me, you're not trying to kill field mice, you know. So what's the difference? I mean, you've got to settle along. It's like – but for me, it's just kind of a challenge. You want to narrow the variables as best you can.

You want to control the variables that are controllable. That would be my equipment, you know, what I'm using for a scope setup, maybe my practicing, maybe a particular load for my rifle and everything. If I can just tighten everything down, then when I get buck fever – And the wind's blowing. I'm not dealing with buck fever, marginal equipment, Lynn, guesstimating, and pull the trigger and hope for the best. You know what I mean? Maybe I've got – Another factor with that, not only precision, but time. I mean, two seconds looking at a chart, that could change everything. Yeah, we all used to do that. I mean, we all had three to nine Leupolds on there a lot, you know, 20 years ago, right? Oh, Simmons straight eight. Okay. I started with a Leupold fix four. That was my first two out. Four power fixed. You were a different level. You were a different level. I just – My dad's –

Still probably lifetime warranty. That's crazy. That scope's locked. So is the gun. Oh, it's welded on with rust and all kinds of things. But anyway, the point is you're right. You know, back then, I didn't have any – it was just, he looks far, I'm going to aim a little high. Okay? And then you finally start learning that there's programs on the internet when that was – That's not ethical. When Al Gore developed the internet, then we could look on there and plug some information about your bullet speed, the size, maybe a ballistic coefficient. Sometimes it was just the grain, like 130 grain, you know, partition with the 270. And just get a rough drop, you know, rough drop. Okay. Three inches is – or 300 is seven to eight. 400 is like 16 to 18. You know, 500, 36 or something like that. All right, I'm tapping out about there, you know.

And – but all of that, you're doing – and then, okay, you had a very rudimentary range finder that didn't do angle either. We didn't even comprehend angle. I still have them. I still have them. The big block ones? Oh. Well, okay. So I got one of those, but I've got two, the Lack of 900, Lack of 1200, 1600. Yeah. You know what I mean? We got them all. Yeah. And my kids, I'm still of the mindset they're new, right, because they were the most expensive thing. But when you first got that, did you ever even know or think of angle affecting – Well, no. I didn't even know what angle was. No. You're just like, 500 yards? Why didn't I kill that? That's 500. I held it. And it's downhill, so it's closer to – you know, I mean, but you don't know. You don't – It's uphill. I should aim higher. Yeah. So anyway – The time is a big deal.

Like you said, all these precision things lend yourself to getting your shot off quicker before the variables then change to something a little bit different than what you just did. But I want to – I'll be the devil's advocate a little bit when we're talking about reticles is let's say, okay, you lay one down there. Of course – Adam, how many – Okay. Off subject. Just for a second. How many times do your clients kill their sheep on the first shot? And how many do they miss on the first shot? Follow-up shots are 50-50. I know. I'll bet it's 50-50 they miss the first shot. And do you ever let them shoot offhand? No, no. Okay. So they're prone on a bipod, squeezing. You're talking to them. You're whispering to them. Everything's perfect. Variables, no variable. Everything's perfect. And they blow it. 50-50. So then the follow-up shot is now the ram may be moving a little bit further.

Everybody's clustering for a range finder. They're getting – Redialing, getting back in, leveling the gun. And there's all these variables and everybody's stressed versus the reticles. You can come in if he's – if Adam's saying now he's 300, now he's 400, now he's 500. Just move the line. Very easy. There's truth to that. And that's – My brain was programmed that way when I shot him. And it's just like I used to shoot yardage on my turrets and now I shoot MOA. I've just evolved with the way my brain and the way I conceptualize my shot. I've gone away from yardage. I'm now an MOA dialer. And once you make that switch, it's just like you've always been doing it. But when you move from a reticle to a one crosshair turret, it's kind of the same. Once you kind of move to that, the comfort level, precision, confidence, whatever just changes. And if it's working, I don't want to go back.

I'm a dialer too. But having said that, okay, Jim Borden, he's an incredible rifle builder, bench rest shooter, blueprinted actions. I've got several of his rifles. Does a great job. He hates the dials because there's mechanical moving parts and those fail. And that's what he's always been taught. You set in your scope. He likes Swarovski. Neither here nor there. You set in your scope. It's got lines in there. Those lines never move. You never move. The system's perfect. And if you miss, it's because of some mechanical failure or you. It's not me or my gun. And I think that's what he is saying is, you know, is my gun, you know, the optics and you dialing and having lots of moving variables and Bluetooth options is affecting what people think of my rifle. My rifle's perfect. He's, and, and, and a lot of the bench rest shooters are very, are perfectionists. I mean, perfectionists.

And so, you know, that's bothersome to him is having all of these different variables. But having said that, I've gotten used to grabbing a six hour rangefinder and I, and I've got it all Bluetooth to my phone, my app, my different gun profiles. And, and dude, it's unbelievable. And I love it. So, you know, having said, am I going to be as fast on a follow-up shot or third or fourth or heaven forbid, fifth, sixth shot? You know, maybe not, but, you know. 15 to 20s. I can get them off pretty fast. I can get them off pretty fast. Like I say. We've heard of some of those this year. And I want to be clear that it's not anybody in this room. No, no, but we've just heard, whether it be people calling in or all that. 25 plus rounds. After a few start getting missed, all of the cool, calm, and collected goes out the window. And it's just.

And so, and I, and I think in large part, you can take an out of the box gun, maybe a little trigger work and a nice little muzzle brake with even a lower tier scope. If you add a smart rangefinder to it, you have a great system. You can make it a great system. You don't have to spend 10 grand on this, 5 grand here, and 2 grand in load development. You, and a little extras on your gun. Honestly, if you, you, you have a bipod with a solid rest in the back on the butt of the gun, you've got a level scope and you've, you're calm and collected with a great rangefinder. And you know what your gun is doing. I think that's a large part is knowing what your gun is doing. Man, you can get the job done. It doesn't take a lot to go that next level. We've alluded to the Bluetooth option in some of the standalone rangefinders like the, the SIG Kilo 2400 ABS or maybe the Victory 10 by, uh, 10 by 42.

The Victory HT and the RFs, the 10 by 42 RFs made by Zeiss. And, uh, like a 3200.com. And there's others that are in the works. Um, that's, frankly, that's the way of the future. That's not going to go away. Pretty soon, everybody's going to have their version of those and keep perfecting that. Um, I don't think that there's any doubt of that. The, the days you can almost not find a rangefinder that doesn't do angle anymore. There's a few out there, but it's like, those are left in the dust. The angle only rangefinders are still very good practical. It's like for archery hunting. I, I like, I like a little standalone one for that when I archery hunt that I just, I pull up my, my bow arm. I'm sure I don't have to get my whole binos out of my case. It's just right there. And I just hit it. And you know, it's usually in your shirt pocket or something right there. And I shoot.

So that's another reason I have a standalone rangefinder is for bow hunting. And I know some people say, well, why would you want two things? Just personal. I, I, when I'm ready to shoot, I don't have to get my whole binos up. They're heavier. They're harder sometimes if it's not, you know, to get them up to your eye and do that versus that little monocular boom and hit it. So for me, bow hunting. And it goes in your front pocket chip or your sidebar. Or the cargo or wherever. And so bow hunting definitely has a different applicability for a rangefinder. We're talking about rifle stuff, but, um, definitely you've got to have an angle compensator there. But the Bluetooth stuff for the guns, it's just the wave of the future. It's not going away. Um, but you know, whether you do yardage mills or MOA, it's just math. It doesn't really matter.

It comes down to what your brain and what you like and what resonates with you. I think it's, I've changed, like I've alluded. I don't know. Jason's probably, well, we all, we all were kind of on yardage. It's all there was really. Well, not all there was, but it's all hunters used. And it's still a good option. If you know, you're never going to, you're going to hunt your home state in Colorado every year and never go to Hawaii or somewhere. You may not need, you know, to do the MOA stuff if you have it set up. Well, you just need to know where those lines come in. If you're going to do reticles, you can make a new chart based on, and I always did it. I went to Mexico. I make a new chart, tape it on there. I'm at sea level, 60 degrees on average or whatever with X amount of humidity. And I look at all, I look up those variables.

I tape it on the side and I just know where the lines come in. And so it just took a little bit of homework at home. But like same thing with Colorado. Other than Adam, you were at 10,000 feet on a fourth season. I just love that story. Oh, yeah, it was. Because you normally would think 8,000. Yeah, yeah, you normally would. And so then all of a sudden you're at 10,000. Yeah, you've got these little bullet, you know, bullet drop apps. Not a big deal. You could figure it out. And by the way. That's time. I do the bullet drop apps. Honestly. I have it as a backup in my phone in case for some reason you dropped it. It gets too cold. Occasionally your range finder, the battery's blank. What if you leave it on a rock? Yeah, you leave it. It's stupid. Okay. I have a range finding bino we can't find. Right? I told you guys about it. You bug me about it. And I feel bad. I feel guilty. Stupid.

I have an EL range somewhere between my house, Nevada, and Utah. That narrows it down. So, anyway, stuff like that happens. You've also. Well, you can go buy in a pinch. You're in Ely, Nevada. You've got a once-in-a-lifetime elk hunt. Run down to the shop. Grab a cheap range finder. Just an angle compensating range finder only. Yep. Your bullet drop app will tell you the drop in mills or MOA or whatever you want. Type in the variables. And you're back to just needing the yardage or whatever. And you can do your, you know. Take a screenshot of your bullet drop. I do that for every hunt. Just so that that gun that I'm taking. It's fresh on my camera roll. It's right there at the bottom and not buried up there six, eight, 12 months ago somewhere up in my phone. No, put it as a favorite or as a wallpaper. Yep. You do that or I take another one just so it's right at the very bottom of my roll.

And if for some reason I had a range finder on a stone sheep hunt. You guys. I think I was inreaching you guys. And I'm like, I'm having a problem. And it's a stressful situation. Because when you're out there on a hunt that far away, you don't take two range finders. Yeah. On a hunting camp now. And your outfitter's like, this isn't a problem. I've got a range finder. And you're like, yeah, but it's probably not a smart range finder. And it doesn't do angle. And you're hunting sheep. Which are always on angles. Which are almost every time you're shooting up or down. Almost. All right. So, yeah. You've got to have some backups options. But I guess a basic range finder with angle, as long as you've had a little bit of preparation before, you can get by. As long as you can maybe estimate some of the things like your elevation and whatnot. It's close enough to what you had plugged in.

Or you just change it in the app right then. I think it comes with a little bit of experience, too. Back in the day, I remember calling Mark Thompson. And I was shooting a deer right down here, southern Utah. And it's a 209-inch deer. Anyway, it was on an extreme angle. Like an extreme angle. And I was like, what do I do? What do I aim for? And he's like, he's at 650. Aim at 545 or 550 or whatever. I called him on the phone. Because this was, to tee it up, this was 15 probably years ago. There was no, you didn't have an angle range finder, right? 2004 or 2003, yeah. Didn't have an angle. No, and I didn't understand. I didn't understand it. 15 or 20, whatever it was. I was there. I remember you called him from the field. Yeah, smart phones. I didn't have a way to get an angle on the barrel and then have an angle chart. It just wasn't even. So anyway, I called him. But he knew just from.

Dude, he's. R&D and shooting guns. Dude, he's a wealth of knowledge. He's like, dude, aim for this. He told me what to aim for. I smashed the deer. Like, you know, and I'm just saying. And it was with his setup. I'm just saying some of that as we get older. And then some of you guys that are coming up through the ranks. Some people are going to look at a Bluetooth range finder. They're going to know nothing but having a Bluetooth range finder. And it's nice to know the basics so that if the Bluetooth range finder don't work, that you can. You can piece it together. You can piece it together and make it work. And what we're talking about is Greek to maybe a 20-year-old. The millennials, let's face it. They're just, they're only about the smart electronics. And if you don't have the smart electronics working, you're going to have to go back to basics. And what are the basics?

And so I'm just saying these conversations are good for everybody to just kind of remember. Yep. And that's why, you know, we've talked about these at times too. Some of the different shooting schools around the West, you know, Red Rock Precision, MOA Rifles. There's plenty of others. But you learn a lot of those. You start off at the basics of bullet trajectory, how it flies. What a twist of a barrel can do to that over time. I mean, just really rudimentary things will all help you internalize things moving forward. And Bronson, we were shooting your little rifle. You call her Sheila or whatever. But anyway, how's she doing? She's great. Okay. So anyway. Killed a nice spike with her this year. Yeah. About 11 and a quarter in a spike. That was a nice spike. Booner. But anyway, when are you going to score that? I think it's this week. Yeah. Are you scoring it? No, I can't.

I left it up there. Okay. So anyway, Sheila's a great rifle. Well, we were shooting her at like 1260 yards or whatever. Not saying we could probably hit this table. Maybe two of these tables. That's probably the size of it. I don't remember how big that piece still was. But I guess my point is when you start shooting that, yeah, it's not ethical to take a shot. Don't get me wrong. But, dude, it makes 6, 7, 8, nothing. Oh, yeah. Well, and it was a 6.5 PRC with like a 21-inch barrel. Not – if you were building a long-range bench rifle. This was like a trapping gun. You wouldn't – This is like a trapping gun. That's why I call it my little Sheila. No? I don't know. Is Sheila a trapper? I don't know where Sheila came from. Where? My wife knows, and it's nothing weird. And everybody's happy and nothing weird. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. She knows. It's an Australian term. Well, anyway. Australia.

This – Sheila, kind of bloke and Sheila. It's kind of a casual name for a lady in Australia, Sheila. But it's an awesome sheep rifle. So it's just my little Sheila. So anyway, developed by MOA Rifles and a great job they did on it. But I guess, you know, at the end of the day, that they can – these rifles can do – I guess these rifles can do much more than I ever thought capable, and a lot of it is just us. And like you said, it's math. Wind is math. Drop is math. Every – angles are math. And I'm not good at math, so I need stuff like this. Well, and to add to that, with the rangefinder setups we have now, with the guns and the optic on the gun, they can all shoot – those collectively can shoot better than I can. But the job is then for me to catch up to what that equipment can do. That's really what we're talking about. So you're trying to eliminate your variables. Understand it.

Understanding it and catching up to knowing how to use it because it can all – when it's scope – when you're scope on your gun, a well-built gun and a great scope mounted properly on there, and with your Bluetooth that does all the math and all the rangefinder, it can shoot better than a human can. Just if it was a machine shooting that. Perfectly plumb, squeezing, all that. So your job is to be able to, all right, I got to be able to use that. And over time, all these things dial in your position, narrow it down a little bit. Your repetition, understanding how stuff works, the shooting school stuff, whether it be posture and all that stuff, or just the mechanics of why is a bubble level good on your scope? Why? I mean, you've got to understand that your gun mounted right or left is going to affect the spin drift of your bullet, all that type of stuff.

Well, I think it's just like – and let's relate this to cars and trucks, right? Don't you think? Sure. Some of these new smart cars, these race cars, they can do so much more than just say the guy just going – just because you can afford one doesn't mean you can drive one. They can do so much more. And knowing the limitations, you can get a power wagon, you know, truck, but if you don't know, you know, when to lock all the axles or to, you know, the stabilizing bar disconnect and all of these different functions that it has, you just got to – It's just a truck. That's a truck, you know what I mean. And so anyway, and I think that's what you're saying is there's – what are they capable of knowing the limitations and then how to really use the equipment? and all this is kind of funny. It all came from binos. You guys were talking about range-finding binos, and we get off on a tangent.

But the binos, I think, too, it depends on what we were talking about with your application. I want the most clear glass in the world. I've got a pair of EL ranges. They're awesome. You know, they were awesome, but I want the most clear glass in the world, and also weight was kind of a thing with me because I'm only ranging animals a certain amount of times a year. I wasn't as heavy into guiding as you guys are. Yeah, and scouting, you never are. From, let's say, June through August, occasionally if you're on a glass in the audience, I wonder how far this is so that when I come back here hunting, I kind of know. But you're not needing your rangefinder in all your scouting time. So that is a consideration with a rangefinder. If you're going to play the other side of the shoulder, devil's advocate on a rangefinding bino. Wyatt leaves the house without it when he needs it

because he didn't have it interconnected. In the hunt, it really makes sense. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. But other times of the year, they're heavier. They're a little bit heavier because they have more components. I mean, you lift them up, they're heavier than a 10-power bino without a rangefinder in it. They also, as we've learned about with some of the reps that we've had on with us over the past, you know, just the way the mechanic's shooting a laser out or back through one of the lenses, there's differences in how that affects the transmission and clarity of just glass. Pure glass that's just meant to see pure out there is different than a laser shooting out through it or coming back through one eye or whatever. And I want the most amazing glass that you can have. And so, you know. And those are, that's splitting hairs. We're not talking like dramatic,

but we're just talking about there are some differences. You guys have got 15s. You're glassing with 15s. They don't have a rangefinder in them. Yeah. You know what I mean? So you're just saying the most common around your neck 10s that are used on a tripod occasionally, not all the time, but occasionally, where the 15s are always on a tripod. And so you're not giving any clarity up on a 15. No. You're giving a slight clarity on the 10s that are generally not your tripod glass anyway. Yeah, but in the heat of the moment, you know what, you just slick hit that button. And then you don't have to pull off. You're just holding and watching for impact and calling the shot. High, low, you know, whatever. You call the shot and you don't move. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. And, you know, all dogs are hard to teach. I guess it comes down to everybody has to decide

what they need for what they're doing. You know what I mean? So as we've talked about, there's a lot of different options when you're considering binos. But you've got to decide what you're using them for, what your bulk of your use is going to be. We have our personal favorites in stock. That's what we're dealers of with Swarovski, Leica, Zeiss, Vortex. They've got different lines within each company based on different price points. And again, you know, cost is part of it, but also it's going to be intended use. And so give us a call. We can help you out. Match the specific vinyl for you and what you're looking for, for the bulk of what you're going to use it for. Give us a holler at 435-263-0777, or you can email us at optics at epicoutdoors.com. Let's talk about spot and scopes. So the first thing we've got to get straight is straighter angles. But Wyatt says that big deer hunters

only use angled stuff. I've got a problem with that. Wyatt, tell us. Did I make that comment? You did. And I want you to clarify that on the air. Well, we've just been in the argument here a lot at the office. You know, these two are straight. Us two are angled. That's a good point. We are straight. You guys are angled. 50%, you know? Crooked. I like to call it crooked. Straight and crooked. I personally like to run an angled scope just from the guiding background. As I'm looking through a spotting scope, you know, me and my hunter are not necessarily the same height all the time. And when you get a straight scope, you talk about having to adjust your tripod. But I like to leave my tripod on a lower angle so, you know, I can look through it at, you know, 6'1". And he can look through it at 5'5". And just look right down into it and see what's going on.

I move my spotting scope around a lot. I'm tracking. That's one of the big, I guess, selling points to mine. It's just, I've got to the point where it's just second nature for me. Now, let's say you're glassing with your 15s. You're good enough where you can just take the 15s off and find that animal. You know, you slap on your scope and you can find that animal. You're not going to lose him. Yeah, I've done it long enough. I'd say it's like second nature. Just didn't. That's not second. Would you ever buy a straight spotting scope again? I personally wouldn't. Ever. Ever. Like what I said, it's just last week I sat on a bull for 10 hours. I don't know, 9, 10 hours, 7, 7.30 till 4.30. And to sit there with your neck up is just, I don't know. But isn't that normal? Like right now, I'm just, I'm looking straight ahead. This feels normal to me.

Not that way. I don't know. I could just lean and see. Just have my head down. You like it? Eat my sandwich while my eye's in the scope. Just sit there all day. Bronson. I'm going to have neck problems with doing that. No? Are you? Yeah, I'm not changing. So you can, I mean, there are some things. I've heard it all. You know, and I tell this to clients when they call it. Keeping your tripod lower to the ground is probably the biggest one because anything you get higher up, wind amplifies your shake and all that. I get it. I think that's a valid argument. I get that. That we'll bring up in their behalf because they forgot it. That's right. It's just that we're doing what we're doing. But what about a window mount? You got a window mount. That's a disadvantage with an angled. With an angled, you're like, you can't get that window low enough. For sure.

I guess you have to get out of the truck at some point. Wyatt. It's snowing and sleeting sideways. You're a motorized hunter too. All right. So anyway, good times. So there's that whole argument. Don't veer from, don't let us convince you. Do what you want to do. We sell it all. I mean, you know, don't veer from what's comfortable for you. There's a lot of variations when we're talking about spotting scopes. You know, common spotting scopes are generally an 80 to 85 millimeter type objective. That's the end portion that brings in the light. And then, you know, the common power is generally a 20 to 60. We have 30 by 70s on a 95 with the Swarro. So there are higher power, you know, spotting scopes available. But generally speaking, you're talking a 20 to 60. I do have a Leica that's a, I think it's 20, 25 to 50. So not quite that top end. I let my kids borrow that one

just because I want that extra 10 or 20 power. If you're going to a 60 or a 70 in Bronson, we're using 70 pretty regular. No, I am. I don't want to be without it now. But it also just comes down to, you know, kind of like the binocular talk. What's the bulk of your hunting that you're going to be using your spotting scope for? I mean, are you a backpack sheep guide in Northwest Territories? All right, you probably don't need an 85 or 95. You don't want it. You're going to want a 65. You're going to want a 65, lighter, slimmer. Because you're going to be packing a lot of your client's stuff 10 days backpack time. Here and there. Plus more than your fair share of meat. Or if you're even a high country alpine mule deer hunter or archery season, you're going up there, you're living out of your back there, you probably... You're going to skimp without foregoing the full thing. That's right.

You're going to go as light as you can. Versus, you know, maybe a... We'll just call it a normal mule deer hunter, not maybe a back country. Day hiking or from the truck or side-by-side roads or sheep hunting in that same regard. Backpack sheep hunting is different than some other sheep hunting from side-by-sides or short day hikes. Even Arizona and Nevada's deserts, I mean... That's right. Weight's not as big of a deal. No. It's day hiking, so you can get away with packing at 85 or 95, no problem. So you need to answer those questions yourself first. The weight factor, backpack versus, you know, truck or universal type weight spotting scope and the type of hunting you're doing. If you only... We've sold stuff to guys that only hunt alpine black-tailed deer. Sure. And I was... I mean, that's a very small niche that I don't sell very many optics to people. Just...

I backpack up into, you know, high country in Washington and I love backpack black-tailed deer hunting. And I'm like, okay, yeah, 65 is probably all you need. Probably all you need. I mean... And the 65, I love... So I have the 65 and then I'll snap on a 95 too. It gives me 10 more power. So I'm 20 to 60 with that, let's say that's the Swaro on the modular, the STX. I'll snap it onto a 65. I'm 20 to 60. I snap it onto a 95 objective. Same eyepiece. Now I'm 30 to 70. And I love the 95. It's amazing. But like you said, I don't always need it. I was elk hunting in Arizona. Even though I'm elk hunting and I'm not backpacking, I've got the big heavy tripod, the spotter, a 15s, 10s, whatever. And I'm jammed anyway. Anyway, I can see what the elk is with a 65. Well, yeah, you're talking an elk, you don't want five feet antlers if they're big. That's right. Versus a coos deer like this.

Coos deer. You know what I mean? Blacktail. Like you guys, Wyatt. Sheep rings. Wyatt and Devin, you guys, when you went on your moose hunt, right? You did the same thing. You left your 95 home. Yeah. So that's one of the cool features about the Swarovski spotting scope there is they have made it possible for hunters to run the, you know, a 95 and then you can buy a 65 objective and swap them out. So when we went... Using the same eyepiece. Yeah. Using the same eyepiece. Yeah, so for 900 bucks or whatever, a little under even, you can, you have the option. Yeah, so when we're up there... You can go lightweight, heavyweight. In Alaska hunting moose, we just, you know, took the 95 end off here at home and put the 65 on and it saved a ton of room in our backpack and a ton of weight. And you don't care. It's a moose. It's a six footer. You still have a state of the art eyepiece. Yeah.

State of the art. So, and then same thing, you know, Vortex come out. They've got some great products, you know, with the same basic features. You're talking an 80, 85 millimeter objective. All the big name brands have an 80, 85 millimeter plus objective. They've got even that very top end light that we've sold a few of, but there's... The 115 or... Well, yeah, the Swarrow came out with the 115 and it's just a lot of bringing in more light. But, you know, as far as like the construction of it and, you know, the glass and the coatings and all that, it's the same as the 95, 85, 65 on the modular objectives. It's the same. It's just bringing in more light. So, anyway, if that's... I've played with the 115. Pretty cool. It's pretty cool. But I don't see it in my backpack. I just don't see it. It's a big, big objective. So, that's me personally. Yeah.

And the other companies, we've talked a little bit about Swarovski, but Vortex has several different spotting scope lines. They have lightweight, you know, lines as well. Again, it really comes back to application. But for a lot of people, if you're going to spend good money on it, you're probably going to want one that will maybe use a broad spectrum of what you're going to do. That's probably going to be something that, like you said, 20 to 60 by 80, 85. That's probably where we would steal you if you want to capture 80% of all the hunts you're going to go on. And then there's going to be those times where you want a backpack and you want something lighter and you're just going to have to dress that differently. Either buy a different scope for that or if you bought something that's a modular system, then go with a 65 and adapt to it. But that's...

But like you said, you're indicating with the Vortex, they've got tiny little spotting scopes for who knows. There's applications everywhere. And if you don't have a spotting scope already, it changes your life. Oh, yeah. I mean, the days are looking way out there, not knowing what it is. You've got to get closer. Those are gone, hopefully. You know. Oh, our buddy Clint. Hold on. Hey, you there? Yeah. What spotting scope do you use? It depends on the day, dude. Really? Okay. Good answer. Give me your options real quick. Just real quick. I like the... If I'm not packing in, I don't have to go very far. I like the BTX. Okay. And then is the BTX at a 35 power on a 95 objective? I mean, do you ever need... If you need more than 95 or more than a 35 power, what are you using? If I need more than that, I'll go to a... Sometimes I got a straight piece, eyepiece for that same 95. Yeah.

Now we're talking. He's a straight guy. I'll pick it up. You're a straight guy. That's good to know. Straight guy. I like the straight. It's tripod height. I get messed up because I'm glass with binoculars and I like to switch to the scope. Okay. Okay. Just like us old 40-something. We are. Well, you called us. You called us. And I'm like, should I answer it? And Adam told me no. And I thought, well, what if we get his opinion? And Adam's like, all right, put him on. But I did notice I also have a 65 straight. And I've switched to that one with the back and forth between the BTX. And I can actually see more on a BTX with 35 than I can on a straight. Because with the 60 power. A straight 65. Like the 65 on 20 power, you mean? Is that what you're talking about? No. On the highest power, I'm at 65. Oh. So you feel better just with having two eyes and the clarity. But, okay.

But I want to preface this. There are two different applications. Clint, you've got a 65 millimeter that's a tiny, petite, lightweight. And you've got a BTX that's freaking giant. Right. So there's two applications I would contend with that. Well, this year I would, in my truck. Okay. This year in my truck, I had my 95. And I had the BTX there. And I had the straight for the straight that went with the same 95. And I had my 65 there. And then I got my 10s. And then I got my 15s. And I'm just, actually, since it's in my truck, I just carried two tripods. Do you ever feel like you have too much glass? Yeah. Well, no. No. I know I have too much glass. But I don't feel like I have too much glass.

That's right. All right. Well, what rifle scope are you using? Rifle scope. I've been using Zeiss.

The, what is it? The V6. V6, V4. I got V4s. Run V4s. I have some old, I have an older V4 that's a one-inch tube. And the newer V4s with the 30 millimeter. I like them. I picked up a V6. I'm going to try that one. See how that works. I think you had a, I think you broke one of them. Yeah. I had one that. In the field, didn't you? Yeah. I've had a, I've had a loophole that's busted on me in the field. The reticle just shattered, blew apart, pulled the trigger. Next shot, went to put it in and the reticle was gone. But they fixed it, sent it back. Okay. So, Clint, I want you to tell a story real quick. I don't know. We were in Oregon. Okay. And this is, so Clint's saying that a reticle shattered. I just want to just make you understand why a reticle might shot her. So, we were in Oregon. We're out there looking for deer. South central sheep unit. Really, Wagentire.

We're out there looking for some of these desert deer and we come across like a rabid coyote. Basically, a coyote's not thinking straight. What happened, Clint? It was bad. It was horrible. This coyote is coming into a water hole and he's like, he's rabid. He's not even running away. It's like 150 yards and he's just standing there and he won't run away. Or less. Or less. Yeah. And I got to kill this thing. So, this was the one I had a gun scabbard from my ATV. So, the gun scabbard goes alongside your ATV and this thing is just a rattle trap. On a four-wheeler. Yeah. They're just rattled. You can shove coats and foam and stuff in there to make them still rattle. But I've just been running dirt roads, running water holes, just beating the crap out of this. Hundreds of miles. Yeah. Hundreds of miles in like two or three days.

And you never see any animals and this is like the first chance to actually shoot something. And so, I ripped the gun out of the scabbard.

Lean over on the ATV. Lean over on the ATV. There's a dead coyote and I pulled the trigger and he's just standing there. I'm like, wow, why didn't he die? This is a chip shot. And so, I load one in and I shoot again. And it's kind of in the sagebrush and so I can't see where I'm hitting. There's no dust clouds. I remember a salt flat, but keep going. Well, no. There was a salt flat there, but there was a brush. I mean, I couldn't see nothing. And I'm like, where am I hitting? And then pretty soon I figure out that. So, then I got to reload. And the coyotes still just standing there looking at me. And so, I reload and I reload again. And I... Okay, this thing is a loud gun. It's a muzzle break. It's blowing... It has to be blowing the coyotes eardrums out. Yeah, it's blowing my eardrums out. It's not even fun at this point. And so, after I unload twice, I just put the gun away.

I'm like, okay. I think it might have been three times, Clint. I don't know. It was a lot. I think I tried to run him over on the four-wheeler after that. Because I figured that would be the easiest thing to do. Seriously, this thing started walking toward us. After Clint had unloaded three or four times. Okay, so here's my point, I guess. When you say a reticle shattered, when you had trouble with one of your scopes or two of your scopes... I just want to... Yeah, okay. That's what I was paying the attention. It could have been shattered, but accidentally lined up in a cross right when you pulled it up. And it was really shattered to begin with. Before you pulled the trigger, it could have just been randomly... Oh, it kind of looks like cross-air chute. That's right. Yeah, the impact of it. After I pulled the trigger on the one, I looked at it, and the reticle, it was falling.

It was in pieces. It was just like... It just... It was... Well, so anyway, anybody that's out there shopping for used optics on KSL or somewhere like that... Be careful if it's me. Watch the handle. What handles do you go by? I don't go by... Two-shooter. Two-shooter. Two-shooter. HVAC Hunter. All right, guy. Well, we're going to... If you need some optics, let us know, okay? Okay. All right, guy. I'll call you back later. See you. Bye. All right, buddy. I don't know what he was getting at. Who knows what he's... He's on to something today. So anyway, there you have it. There's a lot of different variations. Just like what he's saying, what he's got in his truck. And Adam, what you were talking about, sometimes we have one on our tripod in the back seat ready to go for this. But then if you need to, you know, do a smash and grab, take off, you've got your backpack

loaded with a lighter weight tripod and maybe a different glass you're going to use around your neck or whatever. Yeah. Leaving the house anymore, you about have a checklist of optics to make sure you have in the truck before you go. But did that happen to you Sunday night, Wyatt? It did. Just driving around with the wife. You didn't have it... You had tens and nothing else and supposedly saw a big deer, but we don't have any phone scope to prove it, so we don't really know. If there's no footage, it didn't happen. That's right. Yeah. Get out of the house, you have to kind of tell the wife, you know, we're just going for a drive and the ones you can sneak in there is the tent. If you start walking out with your pack that's 20, 30 pounds, she's looking at you. Then you're going looking for deer. You're like, honey, this isn't a Sunday drive.

We're not going to go look at the leaves change color, are we, Wyatt? That's a pretty good observation for somebody that's been married for, what, four months? Well, sounds good. Is there anything else we need to cover? What do you guys use personally for spotter scopes? I have the Swarovski setup. I have both the 65 and the 95 millimeter. With the angle. ATX. The ATX. You have an ATX? I have a 95 ATX and a Leica. I have the STX, like you, Carter, 65 and 95. Okay, and I've got that, but then I've got, I mentioned the Leica. I've got the 20, or the, I think it's 25 to 50. It was back in the Televid. It's a Televid, but it's the black. Anyway, it's awesome, super clear. And then I've got a, dude, I've got a Zeiss. And it, it's a high power. I can't remember it off the top of my head, but Sean uses it a lot. I use it as well. I have it in the truck.

I get nervous that we're going to break something. If you break something, you're out of commission. I still have my old STS, not the X, not the module, but STS 65, the 20 to 60 by 65, which I had initially a lot for sheep hunting and all that. But I'm not going to get rid of it now. I know it's spoiling of the scent, but I don't want to get rid of it. It's before they came out with a modular 65 piece, which I used for my STX system. But now my boy has a 65 millimeter spotting scope that he can use and he doesn't have to use mine. I have that 65, you know, STS. And they're awesome. They're awesome. These optics. And they're not as expensive as you think. It's an incredible piece of glass. The STS or even some of these, you know, Vortex Razors, you know, scopes.

I mean, you don't have to spend, you know, $3,000 if you don't have it, but you need a spotting scope if you're going to hunt in the western U.S. It's the bottom line. And Easterners don't get it until you usually come out here the first time. And you're wearing tans and you feel like there's a lot of analogies I could say right now. Some Chris might have to edit out, but you'd feel underwhelmed. Like naked in church. I don't know. Whatever. Pick one of them. You just come out here tans and sometimes. I don't want to feel naked in church. I'd rather have lots of optics. You just feel like you're doing something in the wind that you shouldn't do. The wrong direction. Okay. Okay. Yeah. With ten powers. Peeing on a flat rock. Okay. So anyway. Having said all this, we talk about optics a lot. And I want to preface it.

A, it's one of the most, it's where we spend the majority of your hunting funds on gear. A, backpacks are not cheap anymore. We need to cover that at some point. Optics, that's the lion's share of your budget for gear goes to optics. Well, and usually they last a long time where your boots and your packs, after a few years, you'll end up replacing them. But optics are an investment maybe for the rest of your life. Well, it's kind of like Devin and his truck. Other than his truck just broke down, but it was supposed to never break down. But you know what I mean? It was a lifetime investment. My second spotting scope, I still have it. I've had it for, I've had it since I was 18. That's what I mean. Or younger. Maybe I was 17. Is this the Televid 77? Yeah. Do you still have it? I still have it. I'll never sell it. I sold mine and I'm disgusted I did. I will never sell it. Yeah. I don't know.

I could probably sell it for what I bought it for. The way I tell people, that was like $1,300 back then. The way I tell people if they ask me, should I sell this or that? And everybody's in a different situation. We've all been in a different situation. But if you need it to upgrade your optics, it's maybe worthwhile. That's what I try to tell people. But if you're going to sell it and you don't know where the money's going to go, keep it. Keep it. Put it in the safe. Very true. Because you'll have a wife. You'll have kids. You'll have a mentor that you start hunting. You're going to have a mishap. You're going to be in Oregon with a coyote. I mean, you cannot. You're going to run it over. I ran into a guy this year in Colorado, backed over his tripod and his BTX with his truck. Wow. You know like when you see a jackrabbit hit on the highway and the eyeballs are pfft.

Those two BTX parts were hanging out by wires. Come on. No. I felt so bad. I was like, and that's not probably covered under a warranty. Well. I mean, I don't know the facts, but when you run it over with a one flatbed. Vortex warranty is pretty incredible. Okay. Well, I'm just talking about like you drop some off of, you know. I know. But I'm just saying they're going to last. Buy what you can afford, when you can afford it. But when it comes time to upgrade, if the bunny's not as tight and those are still good and functional good, just keep them. I can't tell you how grateful I have. I have kept some SLCs, you know, that 65 scope. Throw them under the seat. You end up having a family member or I've had, you know, if you drop your 15s, which I've dropped them many times. The tripod fits and they're out of alignment during the middle of the hunt.

And it's nice to just grab a pair of ratty ones that you can at least get by for two months until you send them in. I had that on my NLPers.

Yeah. And they were okay. They still. But it was rough. It was scary. It was scary walking off. Well, I might have said something I shouldn't have. I mean, it was just. I do it every time. I can't believe that just happened. And, you know, anyway. You had that happen, Wyatt? You're 15s. You just walk away. You stretch. You use the restroom. And you didn't lock your tripod. And it's just the gravity's fawn. And then you hear a crash. And you hear. And you're like. Uh-oh. I had a hunter one time break my pair of 10s and 15s on a hunt. How old? How did he break them? So I finished the hunt on a borrowed pair of 15s and my backup 10s. How'd you break them? Just curious. The 10s, he was looking through and just flat out just drops. Dropped them on the run. 15s were in the backseat of my truck, wrapped in a coat. He grabbed his stuff off the top.

Just took my coat right out and dropped them right on the pavement of the hotel parking lot. Just got them out of alignment. They were. They were fixable. It actually cracked the top of the lens on the 15. Bent the tube on the end and cracked the. Objective side? Cracked the lens on the objective side there. Is that about the time when you decided that no other clients could be in your truck? Yeah. That was one of the breaking points right there. It might have been that total hunt right there. Well, and so, yes. Point taken is if you need it to upgrade and put that exact money back into something you're upgrading, it's maybe worthwhile. If the money is just going to go in the bank account, keep it for now because stuff happens during the hunts. It happens every year to somebody.

And so, I have a roving pair of 15s that I use within the guiding, you know, within my circles where we're sheep guiding. Because if someone's 15s, take a break. I can handle a pair. Well, if you're straight or a crooked, give us a holler here at Epic Outdoors. Epic Optics, we can help you. We sell optics to crooked guys and we sell them to straight guys. So, give us a holler at 435-263-0777. Or you can email us, optics, at epicoutdoors.com. E-P-I-C-O-U-T-D-O-O-R-S dot com. E-P-I-C-O-R-S dot com.