EP 205: 10 Years of KUIU with Brendan Burns

Every stock was cross Big Canyon, so it was like three and a half hours to get around. You get on the wrong side of a V gorge that's 150 yards wide and the goat moves and you're pretty much ledged out for that stock. Anything to do with Western Big Game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, coming at you from southern Utah. It's a dusty, dry southern Utah, Bronson. Yeah, it's not going to rain either for a while. I mean, it's the time of year we get dry right now. People want to go to the lake, but our lakes are a little low, especially Lake Powell. Never been this low since like 1960, 50, 40, I don't know. When? Do you remember? Well, whenever the dam was built. Okay. It's crazy out there. It's crazy. It's sucking down low, but we need some water for sure. Anyway, we kind of got a special podcast. We're going to be visiting with Brendan Burns of QU. Great company. Been with us from the start here. In fact, Bronson, even in our prior life. That's right. I think we'll talk about that today.

That's the first time we ever, well, probably sat down and talked business with Brendan and Jason Harrison, founder of QU. So let's give Brendan a call and let's jump on into this. Brendan.

He's probably e-scouting for elk.

Sorry about that. Oh, yeah. You just made us think that you were out shed hunting or something today. I thought maybe you were e-scouting for elk or something. Just ghosted you. Just ghosted you. That'll blame you. How's it going? How's Bo's been this morning? Oh, it's a beautiful day. Beautiful day. Nice and sunny. We got a little rain the last couple of days, so it's nice and sunny out today. There's a nice time of year to live here, that's for sure. Nice. Nice. Before we kick off into QU, how is Southern Montana and that? How's your spring been as far as, is it green? Is it dry? It's green. It's green and dry. I mean, it's definitely dry. Like, out east is horrible, I guess, right now. But we got a lot of snow packs, so we haven't started runoff. I mean, there's a lot of snow in the deep areas, for sure. I mean, a lot of, you know, it's dry right now.

I could use some more water, that's for sure. But we're not really affected by that like you guys are. You know what I mean? Animals can always get a drink. I mean, it's so funny how people are always like, oh, you know, it's a nice wet year. We should have some good horn growth. It's like, you don't understand the stunted horn growth down south is they literally can't drink. Like, there's never a time when an animal can't walk two miles and get a drink. Yeah. Right. Or eat green feed up there. Like you said, you stagger it with green low and then you got so much. It's kind of like Colorado, parts of Wyoming, Idaho. We don't talk about it as much as we do Southern Utah, Southern Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico. But I thought we'd ask. I've actually found that I think historically, if you looked at the data, the drier the year is, the bigger the elk. Hey, that's what they're saying.

That's what they say in Nevada even. Nevada and parts of Utah. Dryer is better. Well, I think they have to eat stuff that's probably higher nutritional. I mean, I'm no animalologist or whatever it is. But, yeah, I mean, they have to eat different stuff. Yeah. It makes sense to me. It's a little towing. It seems like every year we have big fires. There's some big bulls get killed. That's what Tony Grimmett mentioned about antelope, too. Some of those dry years, they kill the big, you know, giant world record potential. And, anyway, kind of interesting. It just forces them to feed on different stuff. So, yeah. Well, hey, 10 years. We got a – you guys are launching a big campaign, rightfully so, this 10-year anniversary campaign of QU since 2011. Let's turn back the clock. Let's – Let's go back to 2011, 2010. Somewhere in there burns when you guys –

In these very offices which we now reside right here, I believe, is where we started with you and Jason Ariston at the time. It was kind of – Jason and I were just talking about this this morning. I can't – it feels in a way like it was 20 years ago. I don't know if – I thought it was 07 or something. It's not. It was 2011. Well, actually, Jason and I came down there to do – like we had our first ads printed up. We had our first – we had prototype product. And we came down there. I actually looked it up. I think it was December 10th of 10th. There you go. It was three months before we launched. And came down and met and showed you kind of what we were coming out. It was a tiny line. Obviously, there was – I think there was maybe eight products total when we started. No synthetic in any. We had, you know, Merino base layer and a tack pan, which has been – Yeah, that's been –

One of our big seller, that's been one of our big – like I try our most successful product ever. I remember that. You brought that out and you poured water on the table here with us and it beat it. And we're like, hey, sold. Yeah. I mean, like – And, yeah, so you guys – it was – yeah, we came down to meet with you guys. You know, that was when advertising budgets were really small. And, obviously, you guys did us a solid. And, you know, we're believed in, obviously, in Jason's vision and products. We were – you know, a lot of it was based on what we were going to do. You know, we had a pretty solid plan on what was in the works. And there was still a bit of a – you know, I mean, like I said, I started in September of 2010. And that was my first official business trip that I took with Jason. We flew into Vegas and I drove up there. Yeah, it was – Cedar City, Utah. Yeah.

It's hard to believe. Like, even at that time when you're going, like, this is going to go well. It's going to be great. And, obviously, you know, Jason was one of those guys that was contagious about, you know, success and business and products. And, I mean, like, totally unique, dude. Like, I mean, just – His enthusiasm can't be beat. Yeah, he wasn't – Yeah, you believed that. He was never pessimistic. No, you believed – He had a way to sell it. But he wasn't a salesman in the way to sell it. He just had a confidence in the way he was presenting it. Well, so confident. So confident. Yeah. And, you know, the experience in the former company and, you know, obviously, he was driven to basically everything he had seen that he didn't like in the former company and the way that things were sold.

He thought – I mean, literally, he was building a better mousetrap. I mean, Consumer Direct was – I just – it's such a funny thing now that everybody has basically dumped retail or maybe they haven't officially said they dumped retail. But they sure like selling Direct a lot more. That's right. You know, 10 years ago, that was like – I mean, literally, people were like, it'll never work. No, it was like – You're crazy. It'll never work. Yeah, it was. It was – felt revolutionary because at the time, I mean, even the e-commerce wasn't even – it wasn't even close. No. It was infinitesimal compared to what we have today on e-commerce of any company. No, you've got social media, Amazon, everything. It doesn't – you know what I mean? There's lots of – people are used to shopping online. They're used to going Direct if they want to go Direct. A little bit more so, yeah. But it was.

Yeah, it was revolutionary. And for him, it's like, you know, he obviously went in great business leaders, which I would consider him. You know, they have – they're ahead – like timing is everything. He was ahead of the timing. And it was really driven by the fact that the feedback from customers directly would produce better products. I mean, that really was the goal was like, listen, I mean, when you sell to retailers and you don't really actually touch the customer. You build stuff that your dealer base wants you to build or stuff that has higher margins or stuff that sells better or whatever. But you're really not building the stuff that your actual end user.

And it's like he really thought that the end user – the more contact you can have with the end user, the more database you can have, the more people you can reach out and actually talk to and get feedback from, the better off your product we're going to be. And obviously, the business side of it, if you can make – if you can build a big enough customer base to not go out of business, which, you know, that was the big thing back then. I mean, when you have – we have a lot of customers now. Things are amazing. But back then, it was like just – I mean, we started with basically a dozen people believing in the brand. And, you know, I mean, we sat in March and, you know, when Jason turned the company on, I was sitting at his – in his kitchen. And literally, it was like, we don't know. Like, we think there's a lot of demand. We think it's going to go well. And I turned it on.

And, like, all of a sudden, ours started rolling in. What I thought was brilliant was he brought the customer along or the potential customer along with the innovation. Remember, he had blog and kept blogging different things. We're doing this. We're trying this. What do you guys think? What would you try differently? I mean, the whole evolution of, you know, whether it be the clothing and features on clothing because, you know, we've had it for 10 years. And there's things now. I mean, I still have some of my old stuff. My kid finds it. And got the old generation, the first brown pack that you guys make, the gen pack, whatever you want to call it. And my boy uses that shed hunting like crazy. It's still, you're not going to wear it out still. But there's been changes made. But that key to key in what Jason just said, you guys were big online and the feedback that people could provide.

And they felt like they were building their gear. Well, they were helping build it. Even though Jason knows way more than we do or the customer or whatever. You and Jason, the team, I mean, you guys knew where you were going with it. But you brought the customer along and the consumer. And they had a say, or at least we felt like we had a say. They felt vested. Yeah, it was vested. I mean, they were buying it from Hecker High Water because they felt like they helped build it. You know what I mean? Even though you all know, you all knew where you were going with it. You just brought us all along. Well, the total transparency was something that was unique to the, like, one thing that, you know, I mean, a little bit into the apparel business and stuff is that, like, it always has been really secretive.

And that always, he always, you know, Jason was big on, like, listen, if you tell people how to judge their own product, like, if you tell, if you give people the facts, like, let's just say in rain gear. And I see nowadays, like, I actually just saw an article the other day about the difference between two-layer and three-layer rain gear. I went through there and I was like, dude, it's literally a copy of an article we did in 2011. And it's like, if you can educate the customer, like, through total transparency, we're talking pricing, material, construction, where it's from, all that stuff. Like, he always thought, like, if you can educate people and you truly build the best product, they will go out in the market, look at everybody else's stuff, ask those hard questions.

Eventually, they'll end up back at Kuyu because if you're truly building the best stuff and you educate the customer to know what they're looking for, it's a natural. They're going to come back. They're going to be like, not only do they build the best stuff, but I can tell you why. And, like, we created really experts in whether it's fabric or design or, you know, features. Like, I mean, it had always been a secretive thing, you know what I mean? Like, basically, the camouflage market had kept the performance apparel was, you know, I mean, before Kuyu and a few other, like, performance apparel was 10 or 15 years ahead of hunting apparel because of camouflage. One of the reasons we came out with our own camel pattern originally is, A, it was really distinct and you could see it, but number two is, like, you could actually build with the fabrics you wanted to.

I mean, people don't realize that for 15, 20 years, the major camel producers, like, you had the same – everybody was building the same stuff on their fabric that had their pattern on it. You weren't – they weren't making new fabrics. So, we were – that's why everything was cotton and it was all – it was all garbage. It was camouflage, but it was all garbage. And so, like, you know, it was really kind of the first of – really, the catch-up was super quick. You know, mountaineering and outdoor was far ahead of hunting. And then that catch-up caught really quick. And now, I mean, like, we're at the point now where we're driving innovations even in outdoor apparel. I mean, like, you know, I mean, it's funny when you think of some of the innovations in the last decade, but, like, you know, stretch woven is just the standard now. Like, treated down, we're the first ones to do treated down.

We still have the best treated down in the entire hunting market, like, period, hands down. Yeah. Yeah, well, and I think there's a lot of – going back to the licensing of camel patterns and whatnot, there's a lot of politics involved, just like what you're saying. And by you guys developing your own pattern, you got to own yourself. You can put it on what you want. You can build what you want. You can make it look the way you want. And so you just own the whole thing from start to finish. Yeah, it was – and, you know, a lot of that stuff is – it's kind of like industry standard now. But, you know, 10 years ago, it was like, whoa, that's crazy.

I mean, telling people where your factory was or, like, actually, I mean, the fact that people understand now what Torre, what this fabric manufacturer is and how they go to, like, showing the behind-the-scenes testing and stuff, that was never done. Nobody ever got to look behind the curtain. It was like smoke and mirrors, like, oh, we build the best this and that. And it's like, hey, we'll just tell you exactly what you build. And then when you go out and ask those tough questions – and that had never been done before. And the transparency in pricing, too. Like, hey, we're a business. We have markup. But, like, here's what's normally going on is, you know, if you have a product that's $100 – you know, I mean, he was the first one to really explain to everybody, like, listen, if you have $100 product, the company builds it for $25, sells it to the retailer for $50, they sell it for $100.

You're still getting a $25 product. You can buy direct. You can buy a far better product for the same price. Or you can buy a far better product for less money if you can work direct. Now, I mean, that was revolutionary. I think that's why you guys weren't scared to tell people what it was built on. Yeah. Because they couldn't compete price-wise. If you're retail, you can't compete. You can know where I'm making it, New Zealand, Japan, wherever, you know, where some of your sources were. But you can't touch it if you're going to do retail, so you weren't afraid to tell people. And correct me if I'm wrong, Bryn. It's just like what you're talking about. But I think what Jason was saying was, hey, in the former life, in my former company, we couldn't afford to use the best products because the best products cost a bit.

And then when you go through 14 layers of sales and whatever, it's too expensive. And so now, by going direct, it allowed you guys the freedom to use the best of the best and the affordability. Yeah. I mean, that's exactly it. And then, you know, the connection with the customers was a huge thing. And, like, they weren't, you know, we weren't building stuff already and then pretending like they were involved. I mean, we made lots of changes based on customer feedback. I mean, our original guide jacket was built to be crazy, crazy light. Like, no zippers, no extra pocketing and stuff. And after the first run, I mean, like, we got enough customer feedback. Like, hey, we love the jacket, but, you know, pockets on the chest are actually pretty nice. Like, you know, the cell phone's becoming more integral to hunting, including mountain hunting and just being able to stuff.

That was feedback we got. We sold way more once we put, you know, once it became the DCS jacket, once we had chest pockets and all that. So, like, I mean, the feedback was direct. And then once you have your own, your customer base that you can connect with, they're your best salespeople for us. I mean, it's like, from a retail setting, you just don't know who your customer is. You don't have that direct connection with them. For us, it is. And they're the best salespeople out there. And they, once they believe in the brand, it didn't take many people. And then all of a sudden, they're out championing it. Yeah, I mean, like, when the best, you know, every town or every neighborhood has a really good hunter in it. And the other guys that hunt, they go to him like, that's the gear guy. They go, hey, what are you wearing?

And when they get on to something new and cool and it beads water like this and it keeps them dry and this is crazy light. This waterproof down or whatever it is. Or, hey, these pants never get weird on you. Like, I mean, stuff like that. Man, that's your, you can't beat word of mouth sale. Like, it's what you strive for. So, it's, you know, that was the goal and everything. And there's some really good timing things from since we started to now. Like, one of them, like, obviously, Amazon has taken over the world. And, you know, people became comfortable buying clothing, buying apparel, buying expensive things and having it delivered to your house knowing that, hey, if it's the wrong size, I can send it back. Or if it's not what I wanted, I can send it back. But, you know, like, I don't have to go down and try something on in a store.

I mean, I think it just myself, it was foreign to me in the very beginning as well. But now it's like I don't even like going to a store. Like, I'd rather have it show up at my house if I got to send it back, whatever. But I'm just not a shopper. And so, you know, obviously, the timing of, you know, I mean, the whole how people buy products and how people do research was getting totally disrupted at the time. And we're, you know, he was ahead of the game. It's just, it's just, it's, yeah, it was just a, it's a really cool to look back on. And now and actually to see now where, you know, I mean, it's, it's really odd for somebody to start out and go to retail now. I mean, like all these brands have dumped retail. They're going consumer direct. It's like, it's just, it's, it's, it's cool to see. Obviously, imitation is the highest form of flattery.

And there's been plenty of imitation out there. That's for sure. When, when originally we were called crazy. And I mean, literally, this will never work. I mean, it was like, you will go out of business. Like you can't have enough, you can't get enough customers. You're going to go out of business. That's yeah. It didn't happen. That didn't happen. You guys are still doing well, aren't you? It's going pretty good. Well, and to add a few of these things, I mean, the whole, the, the customer involved process in, in developing and modifying things. Also, you guys had credibility as gear that was built by hunters, mountain hunters, and people that hunted a wide range of terrain seasons from mountains to, you know, northern sheep hunts to. Tiburon. Then, yeah, the desert stuff with Tiburon came along.

I mean, you, you, you were the first real company that made such a, what, uh, thinking about a hunter that could hunt 365 days a year. And, you know, you started with eight pieces, but you were looking at adding, filling in all the gaps to, to hunt spring, summer, fall, winter. I like the lightweight stuff. Those lightweight pants. I mean, they're unbelievable out here in hundred degree weather out in Nevada. Yeah. I mean, they're unbelievable. Yeah. I mean, I think unapologetically, we're a hunting based brand, a hunting brand. We're not an outdoor apparel brand. Like we, we're a hunting brand. You can see it through all our photos, all of our stuff that we're doing. We don't do, you know, fake stuff. I mean, like we're actually out there using it. And then, you know, we're unapologetically, this is a hunting brand. Second of all, it's like, we want to solve problems.

Um, cause there are problems too. I mean, you know, there are a lot of companies that were foreign, like, it's not just a business. I mean, these are problems that need to be solved for the stuff that we'd love to do. I'm Jason. Love the sheep. I love the sheep. I like, we want to spend time in those really, you know, and, and when you've had a hunt and you've had something, yeah, when you've had a, when you've been hunting and you've had something fail, um, it sucks. I mean, you, you sit there and go like, man, I wish I could build a better mousetrap here. This needs to be better. This thing's not waterproof or this doesn't stretch right. Like those are the things we know. Um, and, and can, you know, it's, it's, it's awesome. Cause you can go build those products that you actually need. It's like, it's not like, you know, Hey, why do we build this?

Or like, we build it cause we need it, you know? And, and, um, you know, it's solving problems and, and, and getting feedback and doing it, you know, again, you know what I mean? When, when we started, you know what I mean? The average, it's just like our, you know, packs or anything else. I mean, the average pack was probably pushing nine pounds, you know? Like, I mean, it was, it was like, if you think 10 years ago, it was like, you know, crazy on durability, but like just super heavy and ability to cut five, 10, 20 pounds out of your pack and your system of hunting and stay warmer and drier. It's like, I mean, we were making huge gains and, and, and, and that, that equates to being able to hunt harder, be able to become more comfortable longer, being able to pack more food that you need. Like those are, those are all things that were, you know, came through experience.

Let's talk about that. You mentioned the pack. Let's talk about, cause that was new to the carbon fiber frame modular system. I mean, it didn't start that way and it was started. I mean, a lot of you guys, I mean, QU ultralight hunting, that was your slogan brand, whatever the right word. That's still the name. That is, but that was, that was what it was built by, but it was to, to have, but not just build the lightest up because we all know, with certain light things. I mean, even your pack, you started with really super light pack. Initially, the material was super light and it, it wasn't as durable, quite as durable as the stuff that's there now. It evolved, you know, and, but, but you don't want to sacrifice it. But, but over time, the happy medium of lightweight and functionality, durability, all those things got met.

But talk about the carbon fiber frame evolution of that system, because it was, it was revolutionary too. It was. I remember Jason talking about it. Well, you too, Brendan, when you guys were here, just, you know, talking about it and, you know, basically almost like you had to sell the carbon fiber concept, you know, it was that early in carbon fiber. It's the easiest way to get, I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's way lighter. It's got more strength and it's got more and it's got some movement in it. You know, that was the big thing with, and it was basically solving a problem that had been the same. I mean, aluminum stays and aluminum frames had been the standard for, I don't know, 60, 70, 50 years. You know, I mean, it's a long time. It's like just looking at it and solving a problem through technology.

And, yeah, I mean, we literally went to a, you know, Jason went to a rocket scientist and, you know, and there's been a lot of iterations of it. And, yeah, we figured out, you know, like we built the lightest one possible in the beginning. And we found that, you know, between, you know, four and a half and six pounds now. And there's a, there's a sweet spot of durability and strength. And being too light. Yeah, they're definitely, we built some packs that were crazy, crazy. Some guys, you know, some guys love that stuff. I'm more on the durability side and functionality. I want to have, I'm a little more organized. Like there's a spot there where like too light for me. Like I don't like a pack with no pockets. I like to be super organized. And, you know, you can, we can build a pack with, you know, again, the modular pack system was, it had been done, but it had never been done well.

I mean, you, you, and now, you know, with us to be able to go from 1800 to 7,800 with the same frame that fits you perfectly in the same suspension. It's a pretty nice deal. I mean, it really is. And it's just, you know, it's taken some, some iterations and it's taken a lot of development. I don't, you know, people don't realize how much development goes into those things and how many times, you know, we've, we've had, like we test everything first ourselves. You know, so it's like, you know, I've been on hunts where we, you know, we had a great idea, put something in the, you know, got a couple of prototypes and sent them out to, you know, the guys we have test them in the toughest spots in the world. And then all of a sudden you're like, well, that's not going to work. And, you know, obviously we'd never want somebody to, to, to hunt in something that, that didn't make the cut for us.

So same with the packs and a lot of it has been customer feedback. I mean, like, you know, just, just things that they wanted, you know, and, and again, it doesn't fall on deaf ears because again, that's the end user. Like that's, that's new, that's new information that nobody's ever had when they were developing products or when they were developing their line is like a direct contact with the end user, the person that's actually purchasing that thing. And then, you know, you get the best feedback, good or bad. And there's been some bad, like sometimes it doesn't go great. So let's talk about the pack just a little bit. And for some of those guys out there that maybe haven't seen it or, or purchased one themselves, you've got the carbon fiber frame, you've got the pro suspension, and then you've got different bags. The 4,000, 5,500, 7,000, you know, 2,300, 3,600, 1,850.

So you've got day packs, extreme backpacks, all can be done on the same pack frame, but, and then you've got the pack accessories and different things. So maybe just, you know, run, run us through. Yeah, I mean, the concept is to get one suspension and frame that fits you perfectly. And then the modularity to do what, like, I mean, again, I mean, we're all, whether you're taking a short trip out to, you guys are hanging trail cameras or you're going out shed hunting or, you know, you go out for a day hunt, like I'm going bear hunting tonight. You know, I'm going to take a 3,600. Like I have one, you know, frame, I don't have, you know, you don't want to have 50 different packs. I mean, I have one frame that fits me like a glove. It's awesome. And I, I'll just throw on a 3,600 and I take that.

Or, you know, you're going on sheep hunting, you've got a 7,800 and you've got all your stuff packed in the same thing. So the concept and, and like, I believe it's the best for the, definitely for the way I hunt and the feedback we've got is that, and we have ultralight packs too. We have our, our lightweight system that is, you know, doesn't have a ton of features. They're basically not a lot of pockets for the guy that's, I mean, they're still like super. We're obsessed out, ounce counters out there for sure. And we have all those options that are available. So yeah, if you haven't tried one of those, you're, and it's, it's, it's comfortable, adjustable. Like, and we learned a lot during the process of building packs that we had to make them more durable than you think you would ever need.

There's some real animals out there that do, do some crazy stuff with packs and, and, and then body types too. I mean, like we, we went through a few different iterations to make it so that it'll fit anybody. I mean, it's, you know, whatever, everything. Yeah. You do tend to build stuff that you like yourself. And so that's a part of one of the things that our testing process over the last decade, we've really, you know, really dialed in as like making sure you're getting the right person to test the gear in the right situation. And then getting enough different people's hands that you trust to give you quality feedback. I mean, you know, we've, we've had lots of guys that test, you know, once or twice and everything's always great. Like I literally, I've got, we got a group of people that test stuff for us and they're like, no one is harder on our stuff than myself.

And, uh, and Jason was really hard on gear for two. I mean, it was like, every time we dealt with guides, they were just like, man, you guys are really hard on your stuff. Like, oh, we want to fix that. We own the place and we want to make it better. You know what I mean? You want it to make, you want it to make it better all the time. And so you're like, yeah, there's, you know, it's like, yeah, you can always improve. It's not like anything gets to the point where like, yeah, this is the greatest. It's, it's, it's never gonna, it's never going to be better. I mean, um, yeah. So it's like just making sure it gets fully tested by guys that are, that are really hard on stuff. And we'll give you honest feedback. Cause I said, sometimes you get feedback from the same guy three times and it's always great. And you're like, he's off the test list.

Like you gotta be on, you gotta, you gotta be, you gotta just, you're not gonna hurt my feelings. You're not going to, the development team's not going to get hurt. Like we, we just want to know what's the best. So that's, um, and, and, you know, I mean, like when you talk about, I mean, obviously we're talking about gear specific stuff right now, but when you talk about like, there's a lot of things in the overall company that nobody ever sees. I mean, like we have a tremendous development room on there, um, our sourcing and our, all our stuff that's available to us overseas. Our supply chain is, you know, it's far different than most companies. Um, upper management, all that kind of stuff. I mean, like we have, it takes a lot to build really quality stuff and to keep, um, and to keep a company focused at what they do best and not, not stray too far into stuff that we don't do great.

Well, that, you know, that's all perfectly true. And I've seen it. I mean, I've used probably every version of your pack because it felt like, uh, I might've skipped one. Who knows? But it felt like the best. And as they're innovating, you want the new. Well, and you see a feature, a few different pocket features or just design or layout. And you're like, yeah, that makes sense. That's what, you know, and I would give my two cents over the years and, uh, you know, as with hundreds of others would do. Um, and it's just evolved into now I feel, I honestly feel, and this is not true, but it feels like the pack system can't get any better. Uh, I mean, I'm the guy that I've got my pack systems perfectly and I'm maybe a little bit spoiled, but I have my 78 and I have my. With a separate frame. That's right. Adam wants to go grab it. He doesn't even want to unbuckle anything.

I grabbed this pack. I grabbed that pack, whatever. I don't normally go down to the 18 or 32s. I just don't. Um, even when I, you know, hang trail cameras or things that I probably take a little bit bigger. You can cinch them down and they compress. I take slightly bigger pack. You know, the five to 56 rates is what I end up packing 80% of the time. Even when I'm hunting and guiding sheep hunters, that's what I normally wear. Normally if I have to stay overnight or I'm on a backpack trip, I go with a big one. Um, but that, that 56, 58 range feels like I can always expand it, carry a desert sheep out when we kill it. I never have to go back and I still pack enough clothes, food gear for me, hunter or myself, whatever. Or, and I'm talking deer too, deer, sheep, you know, elk's a different beast, but, but for something that, Hey, I can kill it. It's not too heavy on my back. I can kill it.

I can bring it out in a load with me and a hunter. So anyway, when I'm guiding, I generally use the 6,000. The most, yeah, you can get a full size, big horn in there, life size. And, um, and, and yeah, I mean, you can, it's a giant day pack, but you can suck it down to where it's not very heavy. And, um, yeah, I mean, and then, and that's, that's part of the beauty of, we built so much stuff now that like you, you can develop your own system. I mean, like we're all opinionated and we, you know, everybody's got their opinion on what's bad. Like I personally love Merino next to skin that we make great synthetic that, that next skin. I mean, some guys don't like Merino next to skin. That's why we build both, both options. It's like, you're going to develop your, your custom system. I mean, we're, we give you enough information and we build the best products we can possibly build.

And then, you know, when you try, like everybody can develop their own system. I mean, there's not, there's not a, there's not a magic bullet for every, every hunt. It's, it's, it's, you know, you build your own based on experience and we want to make sure that, you know, whatever, whatever it is you need, you can get that from us. So that's, that's, that's part of it too. Again, that just comes down to that deeper customer connection and, and the feed feedback and, and the fact that they have access to all that, all the information on what, how, and, and how it's going to perform. Seems like over time you guys have, you know, come out with a lot of different products, but tell us, I mean, seems like it was at 2018. The hybrids was kind of the thing, 2019, the Katana series, any of that? Yeah, Katana.

Peloton, I mean, yeah, let's, I don't know if we want to go one at a time and just kind of say why, you know, we start out with the attack, some of the Torrey, then we had the, you know, the, the down and then the super town, you know, and the Evelyn. Yeah, I mean, when you, when you look at like the attack pan, I mean, that's, so that's a stretch woven pan without elastic. And, and, and I still don't think there's anything on the market that competes with that fabric. And a lot of our fabrics now, though, which are the same is that they don't, they don't become giant over time. And like you take a 10 day hunt, it fits the same on day one as it does on day 10, which you can't say about a lot of products.

Cause they get exhausted from stretching elastic and, and, and just, you know, like I said, that, that, that, that's a 10 year old fabric that has been like, it's, it's stood the test of time. And, you know, you move on to like treated down. And we, our first, our first insulated mid layer was, was a Primaloft synthetic. It was great. That was as good as it was at the time. And then as treated down became, and I remember, I remember seeing the first, the first treated down stuff. Jason was just always ahead of his time on that. I remember thinking, man, I don't know about this. Cause I had had bad experiences with down. And we all were afraid of it. When you go on a seat punt or something, I would take a synthetic bag every time because I just don't,

if that gets wet, you are, you're in trouble on your, on a, yeah, we were all using those North face synthetic bags because it was just like, if you get wet, this is going to ruin your hunt. I remember he was just like, this is, this is, this is what is going to take over. And I mean, I was like, man, I don't know. Like I actually, at the time thought I was like, I don't know. Cause I just had not had the experience with it. He just knew, like he knew the technology. He was just like, this is going to take over. I mean, we literally stopped building that to start building everything and treat it down and quicks down almost overnight. And it was such a huge gain in weight savings and in performance now too. It's warmer. And that was always the knock on is that if it gets wet, it's not, you know, it's going to leave you hanging. Now, I mean, we, we, we've gone back.

We've got synthetics now that are, that are better designed. Like our, our, our Kenai, our Kenai stuff is, you know, it's, it's, it's unlined synthetic insulation. So it's breathable insulation, active insulation. So now versus those old ones, which were shiny and you get all sweated up. We have insulation now that you can run it. You can like, it's going to breathe. It's also going to keep you warm. And so just a progression of technologies. And, and when you come down to like, you're talking about the hybrids earlier, you know, the, it really comes down to putting the perfect fabric in the perfect place. I mean, like you, you know, there's sometimes in a late season, like, let's just, say in our, you know, some of our products now have, you know, waterproof hood, waterproof shoulders, waterproof butt, waterproof knees. You don't need it everywhere.

You just need it in those places that are going to, that like an access stuff, you're going to, where you're going to need it in the late season, whether it's snowing or light rain. But a soft shell is perfect for that. So, I mean, the hybrid stuff is really exciting because you can have, you know, fleece in the arms and insulation in the body. Like you can, you can pick the perfect fabric to go in the perfect spot based on the performance that you're trying to get. So that's very exciting. We have a lot more of that stuff coming. And those are the cool ones where you can just like, man, boy, it'd be really nice to have this there. You know, you don't need the same thickness of fabric or performance underneath your arm as you do in your chest on your core. Or, you know, that's, that's where the hybrids are super exciting. Awesome. What have you got? What's new coming out?

Is there anything you can talk about? I'm sure you guys are. We got a couple, we got a couple new things that I cannot talk about, but like are coming out at the end of the, wait, we have one. That's a, that's a, uh, summertime piece that's coming out in the next month. You guys are going to love this thing. It's like right in your guys' wheelhouse. Been working on it for a long time. It's awesome. And then we have something coming out in early fall that I've been kind of developing with, with, uh, that we've, that's been needed for like five years. It's been in the works. And I mean, the team has worked so hard on these pieces. And when you see it, you're like, oh man, it's one of the coolest pieces we've, we've developed. Um, I'm super excited about that. Nothing I can tell you specifically about. Is it going to be available for the hunts possibly?

The mid or late season hunts this year? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yep. I think it's going to come out in August or September. Yeah. It's a late season. So that's, that's, that's really exciting. And yeah, I mean, like it's, it's funny when you look back, like we came down to visit you guys a decade ago and it's like, like, look at the changes in life. Look at the difference now. Look, I mean, where you guys are at, where, like, you know, where the industry is at. It's like, man, 10 years. It's like, it's just crazy. Like if we just sat down and said, crazy to change, man. Yeah. 10 years from now, what do you, what do you think it's going to look like? You know, if you, if you'd have told me 10 years ago that 18 points everywhere didn't mean anything, I said, you're crazy. Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, that's right.

And, uh, you know, Jason at the time, he, uh, he was hitting reboot on QU, his, I guess, second wave. And a year after we met with you guys, we, we, uh, went a different way and hit reboot on our second gen business, Epic Outdoors. And it's going awesome. We did a podcast with Jason about that. Yeah, we did. Kind of how similar our companies are a little bit similar. Parallel in some regards. You know, had a former life. Now we have a great life. You know what I mean? So. Yeah. And when, when you guys, when you guys started Epic, I'm going to say like, obviously this industry is built on relationships. And you guys were the first, you guys are the first on board. Always had a ton of respect for you guys. And you know, Hey, things change, businesses change, things happen, all that stuff.

But like people don't, you know, people, the people that had your back when took a chance on you in the beginning. Cause like, I don't know, you know, the, the first like advertising budget was pretty damn tight when we came down and saw you. And I remember it was like a really good deal. And like, Hey, believe in this thing. And I remember Jason was incredibly appreciative of having, you know, the credibility of you guys to go to vouch for this thing that was just coming out. Yeah. And then again, when you guys went over the new thing, it was like. It goes both ways. He was number one. First ones on board, right? Yeah, he was. It was the first, first one to write the check. We had others shortly after, but he was, he didn't even hesitate. He was our number one supporter. He knew, he just knew, I guess, believed in us enough.

Maybe like we did with you guys, you know, just a few short years earlier. And that's been much appreciated. New projects are nerve wracking. As you know, I mean, you just, you know, things you're nervous. And so you appreciate those guys that believe in you. And Jason believed in us. We believed in you guys. So it's awesome. Yeah. And you, I mean, you know how businesses go. Like, I mean, the first three years were, they were tough. I mean, you're just trying to get up on playing. Yeah. Yeah. From the outside. But it's like, there's a lot of, you know, things are going amazing now. It's incredible. But like the amount of hard work that goes into a new business, not just the founder, the whole team around them, you're getting new people. I mean, we have, we have a pile of people at Kuyu now that are like, everybody's just amazing at their, at their lane.

You know, whether it's, you know, in development or in IT or in, you know, everything you see behind the scene. I mean, the fact that your package shows up at your house looking exactly like it is, that's not an accident. I mean, there's somebody behind there that is making sure that that experience and returns and calls and all this. Like, it's, it's, it's amazing how big they get, but there's a lot of hard work goes behind the scenes. And it's, you know, it takes a lot of faith from a lot of customers too. I mean, like the entire company, like we go everything, the whole company, everything we've ever done literally is because of our customers. Period. End of story. And there's like, you can have the best designs in the world. You can have the best ideas. You can be the coolest guys in the world. You can go on the coolest hunts. You can show anything.

But if the customers don't believe in your product, you're going to go out of business. And you're just got amazing customers. There's a lot of, you guys. There's a lot of parallels. I mean, your, your business, QU jumped into an industry, although you guys were doing, going to be doing things different than anybody else had done, but you're still jumping into, from a lot of people on the outside, you're jumping into the outdoor hunting gear world. They're like, wow, is there room for them? I mean, okay. We've already talked about. How many gear companies can there be? That's right. And similar to us. How many information companies can there be? Yeah. Epic Outdoors. Okay. There's, there's another. Now we're splitting pies, you know, and certain people are thinking that, but it does come down.

100% to the people that believe in you, the customers that adhere to you, that trust you, that, that know your gear is going to get them where they need to be and perform the way it's going to be. And they'll be loyal for life. If, if you produce that. And put it, putting out a quality product, putting out the best, the best product you can. Well, Burns. Yeah. You definitely have to do your part. But at the end of the day, it's like you guys, like, I mean, you've lived that lifestyle. And, and, uh, yeah, I mean, you know, like I, I'd love to actually look at your guys, your two guys' points bank. Um, like just, just to see, I mean, it's like, I know it's, I know it's far more stunning than mine. In fact, if you want to loan me a few, I'd be, I'd be, I'd be fine with that. But you know, it's like, it doesn't come overnight.

I mean, you don't, you don't end up with the number of opportunities that, that, that you guys have had without like it, it, that, you know, you've been doing it since the eighties, nineties. I mean, like it's a long time. It's the only good thing about being old Burns. You got some points. You know what I mean? You know that. We know that. We're not getting any younger. Let's talk about your goat hunt that you, you had up there in Montana. Let's talk about that. You've had some amazing hunts over the years. You've killed a lot of big stuff. You drew a Rocky tag, what, four or five years prior to that? Maybe three. Yeah. Yeah. Kill the giant. I know you're getting tired of killing stuff, but let's, uh, and then finally had the goat. Yeah. No, I think this goat hunt was, and it was kind of like a, I mean, it's just a funny thing. Like I was basically old for 29 on one in 10 odds.

When I started applying for goat, it was one in four. And I literally just like, it was just, I thought it was like a conspiracy. I mean, I could not draw a goat tag to save my life. I mean, Adam and I joked about it. Like it was almost yearly, like the annual. Did you get denied? No. Yeah. It's like Bronson's moose tag that he's waiting for. Well, I've got, do you, I got 20 points for Montana moose. I mean, it's like, I'm not proud of those, but I mean, I'm scared of when it happens. Like, what am I going to have? To clear your schedule. With moose, your odds are terrible. With goats or not. I mean, like honestly, for 29 years, I'll draw a goat tag. Yeah. I drew my non-resident goat tag the third time I applied in Montana. And I remember, you know, you knew that, but that was like 2000, what? 13? Is that? No, three. 2003, I mean. Three. Yeah. 2003. Bronson, that's dang near 20 years ago.

It is. So I, when I, I had a unit that I, that I'd helped count the goats in before they started the season. They started hunting at 97. And I was just like, it was always where I wanted to hunt goats. And I like, I had this, I just like, it was dead set in my mind. The odds were really good. And yeah, I finally drew it this year. Yeah. Spent, spent a pile of summer. Me and my son, we scouted, my son's eight. We scouted a ton and I found a bunch of big billies and, um, and yeah, I went in there. I was like, I was going to eat the tag or kill one with my bow. And I was, I'm a, I'm a great big billy too. Like, and, and, uh, yeah, it was one of those hunts where my, like my sheep hunt in 2015 could not look, it was the most unbelievable hunt ever. I mean, spent 25 days passed up, you know, 40 different rams, killed a mega giant with my boat.

Like it was just the absolute best time I've ever had in my entire life. This hunt for goat absolutely kicked my ass. I mean, I could not buy any good luck. I mean, I, every single time I went after, I had about five big billies that I was hunting and I couldn't get close to them or get something to break my way. No matter what I did. And I was hunting them in pretty some thick timber. Like it was a really hot year. So they were living in places that you just didn't think goats would be. And they were just super old billies. And they were like way more skittish than I thought they would be like goats in general. Like when they see a lot of people, I was hunting places that, that they didn't see a lot of people, not a lot of predators, not a lot of people in general. And they were just crazy spooky. I mean, like in every stock was cross big Canyon.

So it was like three and a half hours to get around. And if they'd move, I just like lots of bad luck. And, but it was, it was fun, but it was just trying. I thought I would get it done. I mean, I started to question, like, I didn't feel that good at hunting several days during this trip. It was just like amateur hour stuff. I just could not catch a break. Yeah. Just kept after. Yeah. And I had a fun, yeah. Like, you know, 18, 20, I got it written down to like, you know, around 20 days and I scouted about 20 days and hunted, you know, in early October, I finally caught one in a really good spot. Billy had been watching all year. And then when it all came together, it was like, Oh, that's how it's supposed to work. That's pretty easy. That could have happened the first time, you know, 350 pound, giant horse headed 10 year old Billy, like exactly what I was looking for.

Shot him at 10 yards and it was kind of one more off the list, but it was like, it was, it was a, it was just a really, really tough hunt. I, I, like I earned it. It was, it was just one of those where you're just like, I can't believe this was this hard. And yeah, you just gotta, you gotta keep going. Yeah. Well, and you see, and then make sure you realize, I mean, I know it's different country. You get in areas like with a lot of cliffy, ledgy country and timber, just keeping track of a goat. Maybe those times, maybe you're by yourself. Maybe you had friends a lot of the time or all the time. I don't know, but it doesn't matter. You get on the wrong side of a V gorge. It's 150 yards wide and the goat moves and you're, you're pretty much ledged out for that. Every stock I went on was three and a half hours around basically like they're big basins and they're like, okay, they're bedded.

He bedded a second time. Should be there all day. That's in the dark. And you get around there and they're gone. It kills the whole day. You're done. And you can't see anything from that side. And then you go back around. It's like, oh, you moved 40 yards, but I wasn't willing to blow them out. Yeah. This and that. And, you know, and it's one of those things too, like anybody who's ever hunted goats, you know, two and three year old billies are pretty stupid. Nannies that are accustomed to seeing people are pretty dumb. Like they're just not afraid of people. But these, these big 10 year old billies, if you really know what you're looking at, you'll be looking at like basically a mountain goat that looks like a buffalo. I mean, they're 10 years old for a reason. They're, they're not social. They generally got one or two other buddies with them or around somewhere, but they're,

they're not dumb. And they were like, I, they're so spooky. I mean, so spooky because they've seen it all. You know, they kind of just hang out where nobody can get to them and they've, they've been pushed to those areas or whatever. But yeah, they were, I mean, like I said, you, most people look at a field photo to go, they go like, oh man, that's cool. You know, like you look at a two or three year old billy. Good job. That's cool. 25, 30 days later. Good job. Yeah. Or, or somebody, you know, like you're, you're bow hunting and all of a sudden it's like, I, you know, it's like killing, kill a nanny or whatever. Like, that's fine. Like I, it was not an option for me. Like I'm going to kill a giant billion. It was a tough hunt. Like, I mean, it's just, it's just was, it was tough fun. I mean, I didn't, I didn't hunt elk in Montana this year at all because of this goat there.

I didn't get a single day out. I was at a Wyoming tag down there. Was it worth it? Because you love elk. Oh, it was worth it. It was amazing. Basically you could say you gave up a 370 plus bull, 380, whatever for, for that goat. I'd love to say that. You never know that. They're hard to get all the time too, but you know, it was, it was an awesome hunt. And I think every now and again, you just need one of those where you just like, it's just, it's mental. You just have to keep going. Like it's, it, everybody I'm sure from the outside looks like, Oh, killed a huge goat. That had to be great. Like, you know, when you're talking 15, 20 days of honey, like, and not just like sitting on the truck glass and I'm talking like getting in there, getting after it. It's, it's, those are the ones that you like, you like, you really love it, but man, it can be hard.

So it was just, just an awesome hunt and, uh, ended up killing me. I was so, I had a cameraman with me, my Matt Forsythe was with me quite a bit and he eventually had other stuff he had to do. So I ended up killing it solo. 40 days later, a guy needs to go back and go do something different. Ended up killing it solo, had a nightmare pack out, got, got beat up in the timber on the way out. Like just did it all in the, you know, so it's just one of those you look back on the way you wanted it to go down. Really? Yeah. Yeah. It's, I, I don't, you know, seven, seven year wait. I'll be fine. That's right. Home state. That's bittersweet. I mean, a grinder. Well, well, that's awesome. Um, maybe before we start wrapping up, I just wanted to, you know, make sure that we, for our listeners that, I mean, a lot of people know that QU, uh, we've talked a lot about clothing, clothing and the packs.

I mean, we've talked a lot about that and obviously that you're well known and deservedly so for those, but you make a lot of other gear, accessories, you know, vinyl harnesses, you know, tents that, you know, we've mentioned it, sleeping bags. Um, yep. Sleeping bags are coming back in sometime, not too far down the road. Yeah. You know, so I mean, just gear, all kinds of gear, you know, just want you to kind of run through some of the different stuff you guys are doing. Um, our goal has always been to be one stop, everything you need to go on a sheep hunt or an elk hunt or what, like everything you need. I mean, that's, that's the goal. Like everything, everything is built to be, you can get fully outfitted with everything you're possibly going to need, depending on the hunt. You know, it's, it's obviously a layering system from skin to shell, backpack, tent, sleeping

bag, um, belt, socks, everything, anything you need. I mean, we have so many products now, um, that are designed for, you know, really the adventure, the mountain hunter, um, that, you know, that's, that's the final. That's what the goal is. I love the final. I mean, the gloves, you just, you look at your glove lineup. I mean, you look at that, you got to do some reading on there to find out what your, I mean, you're not just, here's some gloves, you know, the final harness is a cool one. I mean, like people don't even realize there's more copies of our final harness. Like when we came out with the first final harness in 2011, there was zero on the market. The, the, the only vinyl harness out there, and I'll definitely give them a shout out. Lenis Jansen's crooked horn was the dominant player in the vinyl system. And that was like a vinyl strap. So with that strap, yes, that's right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, we had a private label, you know, back in our former life. Yeah. That was the vinyl system. I mean, we, we, there, there's about, I mean, our vinyl system was really the first one that was built to secure your vitals, be able to get it free. I mean, it's been the most knocked off thing we've ever done. And, um, and now, I mean, look at how many vinyl systems are on the market. Well, and you guys even, you, I mean, just like everything else, um, just like everything else, you've, you've gone through iterations and improved them, you know, from the ability to, you know, the newest one now. I mean, I, I love it. Yeah. The new, the new product. Oh, it's silent. It's, it's awesome. Everything. Yeah. That was a lot of customer feedback of like, well, you know, you know, and again, I still use the original pile. I love it for bow hunting.

It's super lightweight, but people are just carrying more stuff. I mean, that's, that's just how it is. Whether it's your cell phone or, you know, clean stuff or range finders, all that stuff like they're, they're just like more accessible stuff. Um, I don't know if it's partially probably military influence on a lot of it too, but, um, yeah, we, we, it was a reaction to how can we build, you know, we still build a great original, but like the pro system was, how can we make it better? I mean, so we've got a little stocking pack on it. We've got, uh, you know, all the accessories you could possibly need. Um, like you just grab that thing and go. So that, I mean, yeah, we, you know, those are, those are the, those are the really fun projects to work on. Like really fun. Well, yeah, because you, I mean, when you're hunting and you're scouting, I mean, you're

taking those in and out all the time. And if you're frustrated with something, it's motivating you to let's fix this. Or like when you take, take your binos off your, off your handhold and you want to unclip them to put them on your tripod, you guys fix that solution. So you can just undo that. You don't have the whole harness fall off your back, you know, over your shoulders. Now just unclip it. And it's right there. When you put them back in, just clip them back in. Um, you know, whether it's 12 power, occasionally 15 power, if you're wearing those, it's or 10, some people put 10s on tripods too. So just innovation, never rest. That is the, that's another one of your mantras. I mean, that is, and that's true. There's true words are never spoken about Q. You don't seem to just rest for long and you don't sit back and watch the grass grow and wait for something to change.

Grass doesn't grow down here, Bronson. No, we're in a drought. You know, it does not. Well, anyway, it's, it's, yeah. Well, like I said, we've always appreciated your guys' support and it's been a lot, been a long time and hopefully the next, next decade is the same. And, uh, yeah, again, it's just, just awesome customers, um, have definitely made it happen for us. I mean, all that, like, um, yeah, it's just, it's been, uh, it's just crazy to look back on and, and, uh, it's not over. That's for sure. But it's, uh, it's, it's, this was just, you know, as a company, just take a break and kind of, you know, see where it's come. I mean, it's amazing when you think about, I mean, like. Like originally when, when, when Jason offered me the job to come work at KU, he was like, dude, this is going to be just a, you're like, here's his, his vision for it. It's not even close.

Not like it's so much more successful than even a guy who's, you know, like totally optimistic and a complete dreamer and like a visionary, an innovator. Like it's so much bigger and so much better than he could, than, than we ever thought. Like, it's just amazing how far it's gone. I think we should, I think it's noteworthy to mention. I think you were probably the first guy that he wanted to bring on board and, and, uh, he had a ton of respect for you, even, you know, so much so burns your part owner of this place. It's, uh, yeah, I was the first employee and Melissa, the CEO now, she was the second employee like a week later, but yeah, it was, it's cool to be, to be, uh, to be brought in on something early and to be, uh, you know, like you only get a few chances in life to, to be a part of something that, that, you know, can truly be a disruptor and, and, and change

an industry and, and be along for the ride. So it's been, uh, I think that says a lot about, I think that says a lot about you and your influence, your enthusiasm, uh, and whatnot. And so anyway, to bring you on, be the number one guy he was thinking about. I think it's awesome. I think it's a testament to you and your dedication to the company and products, innovation and everything. So, and, and Jason did that with like, I mean, again, nobody sees like, obviously we know each other. So this podcast are always us three, but nobody sees the behind the scenes of KU. He, he, he did that. And we've continued to do that with every single person at KU is brought on the same way. Like, like, they're really good at what they do. Well, um, we, you know, it's not like we're just taking anybody that will like, I mean, the people that work there are tremendous at their job.

They're, they're, they're the expert in whatever they do, um, within, within the system too. And that that's, you know, a company is nothing without great people. And there's just a lot of great people there that, that make it happen every day. I get, you know, obviously we, we always get to do the glamorous stuff and people see, but there's a lot of really hard work that goes on behind the scenes. A lot of awesome people that are involved. Um, and yeah, it just, it doesn't, it doesn't happen without a great team and of people that, that work super hard. Not everybody has the same vision and it's been, uh, yeah, it's pretty incredible. And, uh, it's, it's gonna be cool to see where it goes. Vision, vision, team and customers, buddy. Well, congratulations to you and the whole team. I mean, you've added a lot, you know, like we, we, we start from two or three of us here,

four of us and you know, we're not as big as QU, but we know what it means. No, we're not. We know what it means to have great employees that you can count on, depend on and have credibility, respect, work ethic, all those things. So, Nick, you're very commendable the way you and Jason have gone about picking that, you know, over the years. And, uh, before we end, I guess, and, uh, you know, move on. What are you going to kill, Burns? What are you going to kill this year? Yeah. What's on the plate for 2021? Well, we'll, you know, I, I'm, I'm, I'm cautiously optimistic. I really hope Canada's, it's, it's been like, I didn't get to go sheep hunting last year. And that I'm not, that sounds like, uh, that's definitely a me problem. Not anybody else, but nobody feels that. Go ahead. Yeah. Well, it's such a weird thing to not have the ability to go.

Like I don't go sheep hunting every single year, but when you have one booked and you want to go, you know, so I really hope the Canadian thing kind of comes to its senses and, and, you know, like, I mean, for all those outfitters up there, it's, it's such a tough thing for them. Um, and like, I, I really hope Canada at least influence something to help. Like, again, they've got guys up there, like they've got their whole livelihood tied up and stuff. And I mean, you think about missing two years of business, like that's, that's devastating. And for like, again, whatever your political feelings are, like literally for no reason at this point in time, like they, they needed, you know, people need to come to their senses and, and, and just be able to get things back to normal. So I hope. Were you going to hunt gall sheep or stone sheep? What was, what's on the, what would be the plan?

Um, I got a couple of different options because one canceled last year, but, uh, hopefully stone sheep in the Yukon, but that, and then, you know, I'm super excited about Montana. I said, I did not hunt elk in Montana last year. I'm super excited to hunt elk. Yeah. Like it's all, it's my favorite thing every year. It's always a huge challenge. Um, yeah. And then, and then we'll see, you know, like I joked about it earlier, but I, I didn't start as early as you guys, but you got a lot of got about 18 points everywhere, which sadly is not enough. So something could fall my way. But yeah, it's just crazy to think that, you know, that that's what it takes at this point in time. And, and, uh, so yeah, we'll see. I mean, there's always something going on. My son's just about to turn nine. So he's, he's getting, you know, he's going with me whenever he can.

And we're, uh, we're, we're going to go black bear hunting up in Alaska this spring. And so, yeah, I mean, just we'll see how it goes. I mean, I'm kind of like you guys, you kind of, you plan for the stuff you know of, and then you react to the really good luck. That's right. Once the good luck comes around, we'll, we'll figure it out. I'm sure there's a big bull in trouble in Montana this year. He's dead and he don't know it. Yeah. Cause he has dead and he don't even know it. He has two years built up of penned wapiti aggression and he's ready to go. So, yeah, well, we'll, we'll see. Like, I, I hope that's the case and we'll see. Hopefully we'll see what, what comes about of the draw. Wouldn't want to be a rutting bull out there with burns in my, or a lawn or bull or whatever, or whatever. That's right. Yeah. All right, buddy. Well, we'll stay in touch with you. Thanks again. Yeah.

We appreciate the time. So congratulations on everything. Yeah. All right, guys. Well, thanks again for the support over the years and, uh, yeah, well, uh, thanks again. All right. Thanks a lot, man. Take care. Later, man. All right, bud.