EP 236: Hunting with Brendan Burns of KUIU

It's a mental battle. If you don't say it out loud, if you don't set that goal, you're not going to accidentally get one, that's for sure. We never get on here and tout or write about in the magazine the tags that I didn't draw. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson coming at you from Southern Utah. We've got a great podcast scheduled today. Hey, Bronson, we're going to be talking to Brendan Burns who's been with QU from inception. Employee number one, I think, after Jason, right? Yeah, he's a number one guy. Number one employee. Yeah, he's been responsible for the growth, a large part in responsibility for the growth and the success of QU over the course of time and was Jason's right-hand man for many years. And anyways, a wealth of knowledge, awesome hunters, done a lot of great things in the hunting world and conservation and whatnot. But let's get him on the podcast. Yeah, there's plenty to talk about.

What's up, man? What's going on? Well, just a nice cold spring day in Montana. Is it? Well... Oh, man, yeah, we got pounded this last few days. Did you really? Plenty of snow? Oh, yeah. Yeah, there's places that got a lot of snow, yeah. Yeah. We could use more of that down here, but I've heard you guys in general have been a little bit dry this winter, haven't you? Oof, not a little bit dry, like really dry. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, really dry. I know the eastern part of Montana is really, really hurting, so... Yeah, a lot of the cattle guys are liquidating cows and worried about hay. Yeah, it's really dry, so hopefully we need a lot of moisture, so... We could use more here, too. No question. Yeah. Well, hey, appreciate you taking an, I don't know, hour or so with us today to just talk about QU and talk about hunting and maybe some Montana stuff.

We'll dive into some of the maybe the moose, sheep, goat stuff since that application period's open. The elk's over with, but man, they made a bunch of changes there this year. But maybe before we get into that, let's just talk a little bit about, I don't know, if there is something new. We always like to let you guys talk a little bit about some of the stuff you've been working on, whether it be product-wise or, you know, some of the conservation, you know, stuff that you've been actively involved in as well. But maybe let's start on the QU front, the gear-wise. You know, we've had a lot, a new release, it feels like, in the last six months or so, you know, things like that. And as probably supply chain things have been ironing out, things like that, getting caught up, hopefully. So I've noticed it. I get emails regularly from you all.

So tell us what's new on that front, if you can, anything. Well, it seems like every time you call, we're on the verge of releasing something I can't talk about, which is standard for today. We have some pretty big launch coming in the next couple weeks, which I've been sworn to secrecy on, but it's going to be big. And then, yeah, we came out, obviously, with the burner and the Gila stuff last year. And we're really just focused on filling in the gaps that are missing in the line, whether it's, you know, temperature, exertion level stuff. Obviously, we have a lot more training stuff. And, you know, I always see you are always working on more and more lifestyle stuff and just, you know, brand apparel in general. But on the technical front, like, we really laid out a directive to, like, basically any temperature, exertion level, you know, weather condition, like, we want to fill it all in.

So that's where the focus is. Yeah, we don't want to have a gap. Like, you one-stop shop, you can buy anything you need to wear. And that's definitely the goal and where we're going with everything on all sides. So it's been, yeah, it's good. We've got a really big launch coming up in the next, I think it's in two weeks. That's great. No, we can't sit here and just talk about it. I know you're not going to talk about it. But it's like, what pieces were missing, Brandon? Yeah, where's the gap? What's the gap? Or is this just a revamp? This is a big gap that we've had for a long time that's going to be filled in. So it's good. Well, you guys have been very good at two over time because, you know, Jason and I here have been with you and Jason Harrison from the beginning. I mean, I still have some of that gear. I do. Your first generation. I still got it. It's good stuff.

My major brown first guide, you know, guide jacket. I still have it. I mean, there's some stuff. It doesn't wear out. You know, it really doesn't. Some of that stuff. Yeah, the spindrift. I wore it. The brown one. Remember the little spindrifty? Yep. First gen? I mean, I have – this doesn't wear out. I mean, but anyway, you've done an incredible job at filling in. I mean, you look at the website now and it's hard to make a decision sometimes, but you've got a lot of synthetic as well as, you know, I guess the, you know, Merino, which is where it all started back in the day. Yeah, we introduced waterproof down to the industry. Yep. And which has replaced a bunch of synthetics and then the synthetics come around to be, you know, the breathable, the high exertion insulation, which obviously the down doesn't really. Yeah, I know. It's a progression all the time.

There's always – and again, you know, we're driving new technology. Like if something doesn't work perfectly, we want to expand that. And, yeah, I think when we came down, that was my absolute first business meeting. Yeah, we just saw it. After you in December of 10. And I think we had seven pieces in the line at that point. I don't even know how many there are now. Yeah, I mean, you had – It was seven pieces. You had your pack. You had the first icon pack or carbon frame pack, whatever that was called. We had rain gear. You had the rain jacket. You had a tack pan, if I remember right. But the spindrift and a jacket, which is like a lightweight synthetic insulation jacket. You had the guide jacket. Yeah. What am I missing? Maybe – and then two layers of like a – I don't know. I want to say like a 210 or 245 merino top and then a lighter one. 240 and 185, I believe it was. Yeah.

And that was probably it. I mean – That was it. Yeah, I think we had gators. I think we had gators and a hat. Maybe a beanie. You did have like a beanie made out of the same kind of guy jacket slash attack pant material. Yeah. Anyway, but it's come a long way in 12 years. Yeah, it has. 12 years. It's not been that long really. I mean, there was a little bit of R&D before the launch, of course. But as far as being an active, here we are. Here we are, world. That was 12 years. No, but the technology has definitely changed. That's an exciting place is that every year there's something new that comes out. It's like, oh, hey, what do you think of this? And, you know, always driving. That's been exciting. And there's some new stuff in the works that, you know, there's always something. I mean, we obviously want to reinvent ourselves all the time.

And there's something being made obsolete every year and going to be replaced with something that performs better. And that's why you don't stay the same. And that's why you're always, you know, doing research and pushing, whether it's fabric or design or, you know, application, whatever it is. That's how it goes with R&D. And that's the fun stuff, really. I mean, that is the fun stuff. Yep. Well, and using it in the field. And you guys have been very connected to your, obviously, to your users over the years, whether that be, you know, just hunters, guides, whoever. Provided a lot of feedback from day one and continue to, I'm sure. So, anyway. Yeah. No, it's been good. But what about on the, I guess, if we can't talk, might have to have you back in two weeks. But what about on the conservation front? You guys have obviously been involved in that heavily.

Where have you been most recently this winter? Yeah. I've seen them on social media and others. You've been on a few events there in the desert. Conservation direct. Yeah, yeah. The conservation direct initiative we started, well, basically it started, kind of came up with it in 2017. And we did our first project in 19. But, like, this year we, our big initiative was we took over the entire sheep transplant budget for the state of Arizona. And, obviously, it's all company and customer funded. We brought two other partners in on this one to be involved. One was Wild Society, which is a coffee and beverage company. And the other one's Leupold. I assume you guys know Bruce and all those guys. So, that was pretty cool. And, yeah, basically, we took over all the funding for five transplants in the state of Arizona this year, which was super exciting. It's never been done before.

Nobody's ever stepped up and said, hey, we just want to pay for all that. And, you know, I think people will probably understand that. Not only does that, obviously, take a huge burden off of a state, you know, which, you know, those guys have a hard job. I mean, obviously, Adam, you were a biologist. You understand that. There's a lot of talk and there's a lot of good ideas and stuff. But, ultimately, funding to do those things, you know, has got to come from somewhere. And real money is real money when it comes to doing big projects. And that's what it takes. I mean, there's a lot of great people that have great ideas. But, ultimately, it takes money behind it and hard work to get those things done. And so, we stepped up and took over the entire state budget for Arizona. And we did five translocations. Most of them were supplemental.

I would call them new transplants, like filling in gaps in areas in Arizona that had little to no sheep population but were connected to sheep population. And, yeah, we did five transplants. We moved 82 sheep, 30 Rocky Mountain Bighorns, and the rest were deserts. And, yeah, it was just a great project. A lot of customers came down. And, you know, again, it was the first of its kind just to step up and do a project like that. Arizona is a super proactive state when it comes to transplants and translocations and collaring. And, you know, it was awesome to work with them, obviously. What they've done in that state and what they've grown, their sheep population has been pretty impressive. We worked with Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society. It was the ones that kind of handled all the transactional part of it and a lot of the volunteers and stuff.

So, it was just a great project, just a win-win all around. You know, just like we're trying to do is, you know, our customers expect us to do, you know, business is going good. And our customers expect us to do good things with the money that we make. Some of the profits. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they expect that. I mean, I don't think it's not one of those things where they go, you know, they want to see where their money's going. And they want to know that we actually care. And these are fun. Like, this is absolutely the most fun part of my job is going down and, you know, and working with sheep and being on the translocations and, you know, doing all the processing and stuff. And, you know, it's just a lot of fun. And it's real stuff that you can see.

You know, it's not inconceivable that my son down the road could draw a permit in one of these areas, you know, that we've moved sheep into and supplemented them. And so, it's pretty exciting. And it's just, you know, there's so few things in anything you do that are just a win all the way around. And there's no negative. It's just awesome work and awesome people. And these are some of those projects because it's just great all the way around. And we're thrilled to do it. And looking forward. We've got a couple other big ones coming up. And, yeah. Is this something you're kind of initiating, Brendan, as far as working with Arizona? Yep. And then the next projects. How do you choose your next projects? I mean, do they reach out to you? Are you reaching out to them? Yeah, it's kind of funny how it works.

This one, a guy named Darren Tucker, he's a game warden in Arizona, called me out of the blue and asked me if he was interested in doing a project in Arizona. He had seen the project we did with Utah and North Dakota before. And I said, yeah, totally interested. We set up a meeting and got the head of fishing game and the head biologist, terrestrial biologist there. And we had a meeting. And they were like, yeah, here's the five transplants we're going to do. Are you interested in any of these? And I was like, I'm interested in all of them. In fact, I'll pay for the whole thing. And if I say I, like Conservation Direct, we will. And I wasn't worried about getting the funding. You know, it ended up being $164,000 and 40 collars. And so we, yeah, stepped up and did that. And that's kind of how it came about. So, like, I mean, we love doing the sheep projects.

Those are extremely impactful and obviously kind of the most in our wheelhouse of what we do. And so, yeah, they kind of come from anywhere. We're working on a couple right now that we're, you know, again, people just calling or me reaching out. You know, there's quite a few of them out there. And, again, it's once you can kind of let people know, like, hey, let's not worry about the funding. Like, what would you do if you had enough money to do what you wanted to do? And we can help you out with that. Then, you know, there's some new ideas pop up. I mean, the next project that we're going to do, which I can't really talk about, but, like, it was kind of a concept that I connected two agencies together. One of them needed sheep and one of them didn't have sheep and they were both looking for them. And one needed to get rid of some excess and one needed to, they need to add some.

And that's kind of how it came about. So I was pretty stoked to be in the middle of that. And that'll be coming up. We're going to move some sheep. So, yeah, there's just a lot of exciting things. You know, the goal is to do a transplant in every western state. Or, you know, we just did a guzzler project in Nevada. I worked with Endow and the fraternity there, which was an awesome project. So we're just, you know, anything that comes up, we're taking a look at and trying to be involved and trying to help out. So it's pretty exciting. And I just, you know, the conservation model is just changing a bit. Like, people definitely want to see where their money's going. And they want to, there's a lot of people that want to be involved, like, really involved, like, hands-on involved. They want to come down and be a part of the project.

Is Leupold and this other, you know, coffee company or whatever, I mean, are they a significant partner and going to continue with that? Oh, that was just a one-time deal. I would definitely, I would definitely partner with them again and working with some other people. I've had lots of other companies call that. Yeah, yeah, they had, and that's exciting. And this is kind of one of those things, like, you know, business is usually fairly competitive and all that, but with this stuff, it's not. I'm happy to work with just about anybody. And it's exciting to, you know, like, again, you know, Bruce came down on, you know, the guys from the Wild Society, they came down on the first one. And then Bruce came down on the last one.

And it was, it's exciting to watch people put their hands on sheep for the first time and just actually see that work in action and, you know, pull up in the trailer and let them go and see them go into the new habitat. And then, you know, the collaring data and, like, seeing how they're doing and what their mortalities are or how they're, you know, what they're doing in the range. You know, it's a big experiment. But if we don't do these type of experiments, they're not going to, you know, we're not going to have sheep. And obviously, you guys have both have hunted areas, I'm sure, have been transplanted. I mean, it's hard to hunt a sheep anymore. They've all needed a little help here and there. Yeah, I mean, pretty much, you know, Utah, Arizona, Nevada. These are what every western states, you know, had a big revampment of their sheep programs.

They've had to out of necessity because of the doodling numbers decades ago. Let alone guzzlers. Yeah, guzzlers as well, especially like in Nevada where they're just completely dependent upon them in many ranges. So, yeah, it's awesome. They're always rewarding projects to be in. And even on the north, you know, we transplanted 55 sheep in 2019 to north, you know, 25 to Antelope Island, obviously, in your guys' backyard there. And then 30 to North Dakota. And that sheep herd in North Dakota has doubled already. It's got 59 animals in it right now. And I believe Antelope Island has about 47 right now is the last count I got. So, I mean, that's over 100 from 55. And they haven't lambed yet this year. I mean, so, like, you can see how the numbers extrapolate. I mean, you know, it's not that far down the road that Antelope Island is going to be back to it.

You know, that's going to be the nursery herd for the state of Utah now. And, you know, we're super excited to have, you know, provided the stock that, you know, really good genetics, obviously, better than what was there. And it helped them, you know, rebound from that awful die off and all that. But, you know, really, you can look down the road. It's not going to be too long before they're either, you know, they'll be hunting Antelope Island and translocating sheep to create new herds in Utah, which is, you know, that's the exciting part to see. Yeah. Well, that's awesome. Well, we've – they're fun to be – they're super rewarding. You know, we've had Jason and I and even our kids have been out to these throughout Utah over the years. Of course, you know, it's been, you know, a lot of years since I've actually initiated one of these myself when I was a biologist.

But there's a lot that goes into them. I remember that. And there's also – this funding mechanism is a little bit different, too, because it maybe has changed. But when I was a biologist and a statewide sheep coordinator, I had to go through certain bid processes to, you know, from capture to a whole lot of other stuff to even build a sheep hauling horse trailer type trailer. You had to go through certain bid processes because of – you're dealing with public funds. You're dealing with money that's taxpayer money, sports money. And that's – they're all built in for safeguards. So you spend it wisely and it's competitive and all that. It also added tremendous amount of time to some of those processes and, you know, was sometimes of a headache. So sometimes you're dealing with – we'll call it private funds, whether it be QU or some of your QU partners or, you know, customers.

Yeah, you can just write checks sometimes doing things, move the ball rolling a little bit quicker in certain instances. Yeah, that's what's exciting and really kind of the foundation of what Conservation Direct is, is that it's totally transparent. We pick whatever the nearest 501c3 is. In the Arizona case that we just did, obviously the $164,000 went through ADVSS. And, again, it's all transparent, so there's no monkey business going on. Like, we don't even have a bank account for that stuff. It just all goes through whatever the 501c3 is and it goes straight to the state. And, yeah, you know, it's getting – there's some places where a lot of biologists have complained that the grant writing process and all that stuff is clunky and doesn't allow them to be reactive. And so we just want to step in the ones that we can and be able to, you know, again, they've got a lot more things.

Get it done. Yeah, they've got a lot more things to worry about. Like, let's do this good work and free up some money for them. And, like, in Arizona, like, you know, they've freed up $164,000. That was earmarked for sheep. Well, you know, there's – I think he told me there's 3,000 species in Arizona. You know, like, stuff nobody cares about, honestly. Like, a bunch of little things and quails and weird stuff. And, like, that frees up that money to go into other really good work that they're doing that isn't – you know, maybe doesn't have the support or, you know, still needs to be done. And, you know, a lot of times these translocations or the guzzlers, you know, it affects a lot of different animals like mule deer and, you know, sheep and elk and everything, you know. So it's just great work. We're glad to do it. And it's been very, very rewarding for sure. Cool. Pretty awesome.

Well, what about speaking of sheep? You had kind of a big winner here for yourself personally, didn't you? Yeah. Huh? Tell us about that. Yeah, as you know, like, you both have finished your Grand Slam. I finished my Archery Grand Slam on Carmen Island in February. And it was, yeah, just, you know. Pretty awesome. One of those deals, long journey, you know. I took my bow on my first sheep hunt in 2008. And that's 2022, you know. It's a long, long time to have a goal and not knowing if you're really ever going to get there, you know, because there's a lot. A lot goes into doing it. A lot of luck. It's expensive. Brendan, you're one of the most driven people we know. We're pretty sure it's going to happen. Once you're going to start it. But if you're like me, like when, I mean, the first sheep hunt I went on, I didn't see the end result. No. The first one.

When you get started, you don't see the end. You honestly can't even see going on their second sheep hunt because your first one's like all you can afford, it felt like. When I went up with Litson in 08, my goal was to be a quarter slammer. I didn't know if I'd get one. Yeah. Like that was the goal. So, yeah, no, I've had a lot of opportunity. Great run. And, you know, I mean, yeah, even being driven or anything, but there's some luck and you got to have some things go your way. I mean, honestly, like when it comes to, this is my second grand slam, but I finished my rifle one in 2017. But like when you talk about archery grand slam, like the stone sheep, I don't think, so there's 85 grand slams with a bow now. Like it's not very many. Jack Frost did it first in 1985. That's a long time ago. And, you know, he takes a lot of luck and, you know, they're expensive.

And especially like, I mean, with the grand slam of the bow, man, a stone sheep is, it's the linchpin. Like I got, I'll say I got lucky. I mean, I killed the first good stone sheep I ever stocked. I was able to get an arrow in it and kill. And that is, that was, that was, that was the, that was, it took me 50 days to kill a doll sheep. I knew I would eventually get a doll with my bow if I just kept after it. But it, you know, like the linchpin was the stone sheep because they're, they're expensive. Those are, as you know, I mean, you've both been on those. They're few and far between. It's getting worse and worse. Yeah, it's getting worse and worse. We all know people with rifles that don't kill them, you know. You know, you go on there with a well-intended outfitter place and whether it be weather or just distribution or just bad luck. At 65 to 75 K a pop.

No, it's like, you're, you're, you're lucky to see a good legal ram on a stone sheep hunt and let alone to be in the right spot to kill with a bow. And, you know, I mean, like I said, things are good, but like to do three or four, you know, to do a couple of those with a bow. Like I see why guys end up getting with a rifle, you know, going, going to the rifle. I totally get it. Like that's a, that's an opportunity, you know, you don't want to leave without one. So it's just, it's a mental battle. And, you know, like the, I was lucky enough to draw, you know, obviously we've talked before about the big horn. That was amazing. And then, you know, I just ground away at the doll sheep. Like that was my nemesis. And I knew I'd eventually get one, but the snow sheep, that was, that was the, that was the linchpin. And the desert hunt was, it was amazing.

I mean, Carmen Island is a complete conservation success story. They put them on there in 19, they turned on and weaves these on there in 1996. There is just a pile of sheep on there. I stock five rams in four days. There's sheep every, every day you're seeing sheep. It's a fantastic place to go bow on sheep. I just could not say enough about it. And yeah, I kill a really, really big weamsie. You know, it turned out to have really big bases, beautiful 10 year old ram. And it was just a, yeah, it's kind of a cool thing. Gorgeous ram. Yeah. And it's one of those things when you finish that, it's kind of bittersweet. Cause you're like, it's such a goal for such a long time. And I encourage anybody to set that goal. Cause you just, you don't know what you're going to be able to do. I never thought I would be able to get, like, I really truly never thought I'd have a grandson, let alone two.

But it's like, if you don't, if you don't say it out loud, if you don't set that goal, you'll, you'll, it's, you're not going to accidentally get one. That's for sure. That's right. That's right. Cause you both have. Yeah, we have. And it's just, I didn't know my first one. Jason was what? Well, we've talked about his many times. It's a year he got married and left his wife after about a week of marriage. He went on his first. We didn't have cell phones. No cell phones. She didn't know if he was even alive for two weeks. So, I mean, it's that you don't see an end when you're in that position. But I was telling Adam, I mean, we both killed Cali's California bighorns, but like I want to kill a big rock mountain Rocky. Yeah. And those opportunities are dwindling. I mean, like crazy. It's seems like the biggest.

Like I said, I got lucky and I got lucky and drew and killed a fantastic bighorn here. But like, I mean, the Rocky is the absolute hard one just in general in the ground slam, just because, you know, Canada, the success rate is not great. I mean, I've obviously guide bighorn hunters every year. The majority of guys that come with me have been two or three times to Alberta and BC, and there's just less opportunities for them as well. That's right. And then, you know, the draws, I mean. Brutal and getting worse. I've never looked through the odds. No. Yeah, I've never looked through the odds so much, and it pops into my head, like statistical impossibility. It's just like, wow. That's right. And then the Wyoming thing, like there was a lot of guys like, man, that hurts. It's going to sting them coming up. I mean, it's just hard. It's a gift.

It's a blessing and a gift when you get a sheep tag through a draw system of some kind, whether it be a desert, you know. And then to capitalize on it. Yeah, and then to make it happen. Desert, rocky, and then, you know, of course, there's, you won. You're first stone sheep. You won it through the Western Hunting Conservation Expo. Yep. Full cross society. You won that with Jarrett Dooling. I mean, there's just. You've got to have your names in a few hats. Wait, just have your names out there. Stuff just happens. It can. And within means. And those hopefully will change over time. But like we all said, when we first started, I didn't. I thought the first sheep I ever hunted would be a desert sheep in Utah. Because that's when I first started putting in 420 plus years ago. And it was, quote, my last one that I needed. And it was just the way it worked out.

After 25 years of waiting to draw that first one I started putting in for, other stuff happened. You know, got in the way and opportunities. Yeah, and as you guys know, like everybody says, oh, geez, you've been lucky. And it's like, well, when you're in everything, everywhere, and you spend like, I mean, it's a, when it's a number, when your tax guy talks to you at the end of the year, like, oh, oh, there's, there's the amount of cash you missed away this year at stuff that he doesn't quite understand. But like, you're not going to get lucky unless you're in everything. And you guys have, like, I would definitely not call you guys lucky. No. You've been playing the game. We get it. We're playing the game. But I mean, looking forward from, from this year forward, it's just feels so brutally tough. Yeah. It does. But I mean, you're right.

I mean, we never get on here and tout or write about the magazine, the tags that I didn't draw. You hear about the ones we do draw. But, but how many, how many dozens and dozens are, you just have a name in the hat and play the game within the means and reason and whatever. Sometimes it didn't make sense. But once in a while, things like you said, Brendan, things work out and come your way. You just got to play the long game. I mean, this, you know, get your, your kid, even with the kids and stuff. You're like, I, I always say, I got to get young guys that call me and be like, Hey man, I want to do this and that. And it's like, well, listen, it's, it's a, it is an absolute marathon. It might be a, it's a, it's a 200 mile marathon. It's a, so you have to just have a plan.

And if you get lucky enough, I think anymore, if you draw one really good sheep tag in your lifetime, you're probably luckier than most. I mean, we, you, we've obviously, but it's a different time. I was talking to Randy Ulmer about, you know, when he started putting it in the early, early eighties, you know, I don't know the number of tags he's drawn, but he basically drawn every tag everywhere. And it's a, it's, it's not, it's not because he's been lucky. It's because he's been doing it longer and had more persistence. Yeah. And it's just, and, and we, you know, I started at a different time than even you guys did. I mean, if you had a 10 year jump on me, your odds are way better. And I feel bad for the guys that are starting right now. Cause a lot of stuff like you just flashed in apply for it. Yeah. It doesn't, it's hard to, we said a lot.

It's hard to justify starting in places like a Washington sheep, you know, sometimes you just do it. You don't think about it. Like you just got to put your name in there. Don't think about it. Don't plan around it. And then when it comes, make the best. Yeah. Yeah. Cause you got both drew Oregon, right? Yeah. Right. We did about four or five years apart. And sometimes we tell people not to apply for Oregon, but I mean, yeah, the cost of license has gone up. The odds are worse. So, I mean, it doesn't, but Hey, that was one that, one that we won. The only one that, well, that we won in terms of Rocky slash Callies, Jason. Bronson struggles drawing one and two type drawing odds, but then he'll, he'll snag a one in 400. I don't know how that's my luck. But, uh, anyway, but we're in lots of hats this year. So hopefully we've all got something big coming our way.

We're going to smash a big bull this year, Brennan. Yeah. What's your plans in that regard? Let's talk about Montana elk or maybe. Yeah. That we've had some changes there. You had to pick. Oh man. We're waiting for the results any day up there right now for deer and elk. Just wondering about these December mule deer hunts. That's what I want to know about, Brennan. Yeah. Well, I, like I said, I wish I would say, I mean, I have read through all the change and it seems like every time I open it up and read through. Find something different. And even sorting through what got proposed to what made it through. Like I, it's very, very confusing. I mean, I can't tell you what's going to happen. I don't know if I'll have the permit. Yeah. If I have the permit I drew, I applied for, I will, you know, maybe I won't kill a big bull. I'll definitely scare us, scare them bad. One or the other.

But the, uh, but the 900 cluster, what we're talking about, right. Got broke up. And so it's a little bit of a guess on what some of these odds are going to be. So many changes because you know, when you convert long time, special draw permit areas, trophy areas into general areas and understand that those are going to displace people that normally we used to have to apply for permit there. And now they're going to either pick a different area or go, or those, or those applications that were nearly guaranteed are now going to go to the special draw areas that are super hard to draw, like the elk horns and the bear paws and stuff like that. It's like, they, they made so many changes. You cannot factor in what is going to affect one thing. It's like, you can't predict what's going to happen. The odds this year are going to be really interesting.

We, we've, we've tried to give our best guess on a few things, but, but with some of the ones that have a thousand, a 1500 or so archery tags. I didn't think that there needed to be that much change, Brendan. Why did all this happen? Have we ever figured out why? I mean, behind the scenes, a little behind the scenes, something or other. For sure. It has to do with politics and has to do with, you know, the, the Montana has one flaw and I'm, I'm not the only one that's going to say this, but the biggest flaw in Montana with our elk is our elk management plan. Our, our elk objective. And, and the Montana's elk objective is some BS number that is set in between carrying capacity and extinction based on social recommendations. And it literally has nothing to do with anything. So it's social. It's just social. It's totally social. So, so they go like, Oh, we're over objective.

And it's like, man, I don't know anybody that thinks there's too many elk on public land. I do not. I don't, I don't know anybody that's like, man, we sure need to shoot more of those elk on public land. Like, but it's, you know, how the interaction with private property and, and, you know, and there's, again, it's so complicated because you, you know, you have private grazing on public land, which affects where they all go in the wintertime. Like there's no, it's just, it's just a tough, tough issue. And like, you know, again, I understand from the private, private property owner standpoint, I understand from the public land guy, like it's just really, really complicated. And when they do these monster sweeping changes where they affect, you know, you know, again, it's like playing chess, but you get to move four times. Oh yeah. It's kind of like, you can't foresee.

I know I can't, I'm not those guys, those chess savants that can predict the whole board and every move and to the end result, you know, you're, I'm not lying. I'm a reactionary and this is going to be interesting. We're literally waiting day by day to see what's going to happen. We're, we're waiting for the results. Yeah. We're all in for draw, you know, so. Yeah. It's going to be, it is very, going to be very interesting. And then, you know, the big, the major change, which a lot of people don't even know. I mean, everybody I talk to, like half the people don't even know is the fact that if you draw a limited permit somewhere, you can't hunt anywhere else. Yeah. And that's probably bigger deal for residents, especially, I think a lot of non-residents, it's either one or the other. We come to Montana when I say we've non-residents would come there to hunt our limited quota

area for elk or our general, that's our intention. But residents in the past, you've been able to, well, you buy your general tag at Walmart, wherever, and you draw your special area, which is a permit that allows you to also hunt there with a bow, but it doesn't confine you to that area. You had a lot of options. Now there's not so many options. Yeah. Right. You know, and that's the big thing you're talking about. And usually it feels like non-residents, usually it feels like non-residents are discriminated against, but now it's you guys too. I mean, not just you're here, you're everywhere. You know, you're stuck where you draw your permit. And it's like, I think I've killed big bulls in, I don't know, nine different counties in Montana. Like, you know, there's a lot of times where. You like to bounce. I think people, yeah, I think people think that there's these really good elk spots.

It's like, there's a lot of places that can be good at any given time and you need to be there when it happens. And the ability to bounce around, especially if you're hunting a mix of public and private and whatever you can get on like that, that, that is generally how you're very successful in Montana. Now it's just like, man, you're stuck here and it's going to cause, you know, the pressure on public land where people are stuck. I mean, guys are going to hunt, you know, and they can't move around. They're going to, they're going to be there and that's going to push more pressure on them. And it's just, yeah, it's just, it's, there's so many changes that it's going to be interesting to see. Hopefully, I, like I said, I'm, I'm not optimistic that it's going to make any positive changes. I can say that. My gut feeling is it's not either because in general terms, it feels like, yeah, on the

private land, we'll call them dominant areas, which, or even just healthy mix as a public and private, it feels like those areas probably get, got a shot in the arm, both in rifle and archery elk tags and are probably going to kill more elk. A, because there's more tags in some of them, in some cases, art or rifle. But then, yeah, those people that draw them, you've got to stay there and kill one there. You can't go like, I'm going to hunt here and then I'm going to go with my, my general crew. We're going to go to the Bob Marshall, you know, for, you know, my, my annual hiatus over there with all these guys. There's not, you're, that's your outcome. We're seeing restrictions everywhere. It's just, and it's, yeah, not only can you not bounce around. Yeah. Yeah. And the 900 used to be able to bounce around basically all of Eastern Montana. Now you're stuck in one specific area.

And if that's no good, you now cannot go on a general area, which is like the first time ever. Like you couldn't go to a place where the end result, will it be better? Could it potentially make it better though, Brendan? I don't, I don't think it will. Or will it force people to hunt where maybe they might otherwise bounce? Now it'll force them to grind out and kill something in that. I think it's going to concentrate, it's going to concentrate people on the place that they're, they're, they're only allowed to hunt. I don't, I believe, you know, spreading people out and people bouncing around and, and, you know, like the, the pressure is what drives a lot of that stuff. And, and, you know, people just be, they'll just stay in the same place and they, they can't, they don't have any other place to go. I mean, when you legally can't go anywhere else and don't have any other options, I mean,

people are resilient. They figure stuff out. I mean, you know, the, the, the, I've discovered a lot of, a lot of really good spots because the spot I was in sucked and I had to go somewhere else. And now you're, you're basically stuck in, in one area. And especially, you know, we have a lot of private property and that's just how the state is. You know, those public places are just going to be hotspotted. And yeah, it's, it's, it's such a complicated issue, but I just, I don't think this is the way that they, that they fix it to, to, to limit residents and, and to smaller, smaller places. I mean, you know, they don't even know the statistics on anything. I mean, ultimately we don't even have, you know, they, I was, I went to one of the meetings and, you know, they, we don't have mandatory reporting and it's just, it's so insane to

make these kinds of giant sweeping judge, you know, decisions and we don't even have random, you know, they extrapolate from the people that pick up the phone. I haven't been called in so long. I can't even remember. They have no idea what I've killed on any level whatsoever. And so it's, it's, you know, like every state that's ever implemented mandatory reporting has said, wow, we didn't realize how far off our data was. And they continue to go like, oh no, we're, we're good with just, you know, one in 10 and we can extrapolate it out. So, I mean, I think, I think getting the data correct would be one great place to start before they made giant changes. Cause I, I, I mean, again, they can't tell you if a thousand permits is going to be enough. Wherever those are out. They, they don't know. No, they were, they were just splitting up the 4,000, the best they saw fit, throwing,

grabbing a loaf of bread, throwing chunks at places and say, all right, it's, it's gone. 4,000 is distributed. Let's, let's do a draw. But I know there's probably a little bit of stuff they're basing it off of. Accidental mismanagement though, could potentially end up in a few giants. Some, some, some place it might, they might under, some of these desert areas, they don't know how many animals are out there on the landscape. And sometimes it's an accidental mismanagement on the positive side for game. And you see something special. I don't know. There's going to be a little. I don't think anybody's intentionally trying to tank the hunting in Montana or anything, but they're, you know, just, they're trying to fix something that wasn't broken. You know, they need to make a change for the sake of change. And that's a bad reason to do anything, you know? Right. But it's not that bad.

I imagine I'll see an elk or two and, and, you know, I mean, like I said, you, you kind of react to how it goes and it goes in cycles. I mean, there's times when it's great. Sometimes it's not. Yeah. We do it in every state and, you know, every, not every state's regulations are the same, not, you know, whether it be equipment wise, season date wise, whatever. And you just adapt and do what you got to do in that state to make it work. So hopefully you draw something. Hopefully we all draw something and we're, yeah, we're sharing big. Bulls in Montana. But what about, what about, you know, moose, sheep, goat, always is a little bit different from a non-resident perspective in Montana where they rotate the units, you know, that we can choose. You know, we can't apply for every unit in the state. They set those, you know, kind of, I don't want to say arbitrarily, but they do.

Kind of feels that way. You know, but they, they leave, you know, some units that are constant, the units that have higher permit numbers are generally always there, like 482 and 622 and 680 for sheep. These are getting tougher there too. Outside of that, those like, man, it's slim pickings for sheep. And I'm, I mean, and it's slim pickings. I think even feels like the brakes is tough too. Yeah. What's your take on it? Yeah, it's an interesting, it's an interesting time. I mean, like, like you guys can apply, obviously you've 482, 622, 680, and those are probably some of the best units in the West, but they're, you know, having hunted them in the heyday, they're, they're definitely not what they used to be. And you can, and again, that's where all the statistics are right there. You can look at it.

Like they're just not, there's flat, not killing as big a rams because they're killing too many rams. That's my opinion. Um, I mean, governor's tags are not nearly as big. The biggest rams killed in the state, you know, like I think Oregon killed bigger sheep than we did last year in Montana, which is, you know, that's, that's, you know, it's just, and it's just an age class thing and, and a pressure thing. I mean, you know, like a lot of those units there, you know, it's hard to manage sheep numbers, killing rams, you know, they should be trans, you know, there, there's a lot of things that could be doing, you know, translocating ewes, putting new sheep elsewhere. But like, I mean, they're, they're worried about overpopulation, which is obviously always a, uh, a concern, but, um, just, just, there, there's a lot of sheep getting killed. That's for sure.

And it's just, you know, it, it takes a lot of luck for, you know, they're not, they're not white-tailed deer. They're not four and a half, five years old. I mean, the big ones are 10 and it's hard for one to live to 10 years old, especially when people hit it so hard. And, and they're, uh, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of pressure and a lot of tags. Like it's, it's, it's a miracle for a big ram to make it, you know, and again, people aren't messing the sheep up. Like when you have one opportunity to kill a ram, it's not that you can go like, wow, man, that's a really big six-year-old. We should probably let him go. Like, man, that's your only tag probably in your, definitely in your lifetime. Like you can't blame somebody for taking a big ram. So it's, I mean, it's still as good a hunting as there is anywhere in the world, but it's not what it could be or has been.

And, uh, you know, some of these, I, it's also kind of a semi, kind of an exciting time. Like some of these other areas, I mean, I'm looking through, like, you know, they don't kill that many sheep in one 24 and, and, uh, in two 14, you know, like those, those areas all have, have a chance to produce a great big ram. I mean, there's, there's no doubt about it. I mean, you look through the data in the past and what they've produced, it, it just takes the right ram, you know, having the right winner and a couple of good years. And the nice thing about areas that don't have a lot of tags is that you don't really know what the, you know, like when it comes to the breaks, you kind of know what's there. The data will say that. Cause there's a lot of hunting pressure, a lot of really good hunters, but when you have

one or two, three, four tags, you don't really know what kind, what kind of hunters those guys are. They know anything about sheep, what their goals are. You know, a lot of people just, man, they're just super excited to get a tag. I'm going to get it. Yeah. There's two tags and two 14. So who knows? Right. It's kind of depends on who draws the tag. There's big, big sheep can come out of, you know, the, the beauty of Montana is you can, you can kill a book sheep just about anywhere. And some of these areas, you know, like it's every five, six, seven years, all of a sudden there's, there's a great big one, 190 plus inch ram, you know? So there's, you know, they hadn't killed it. Where I killed my ram in Montana, they hadn't killed a great big sheep in seven or eight years. And there was a pile of big ones in there. It just depends on the hunters that draw them.

So, you know, you got to put your name in the hat. You can't kill what's not there. You just got to go put in the time when you do draw one of those tags and hit it as hard as you can and, and, and find the best ram you can. And, and, and luckily in Montana, it's not really going to be a dig there. There's a lot of, it's going to be good sheep. And to your point, like when, you know, when I drew that tag down there in Arizona, same kind of thing. And ever since it feels like it was a one hit wonder, but Bronson that year we were down there, we saw a lot of good ramps. We couldn't wait to be back for the, the ramps that we thought were maybe you're too younger than your ramp. But similar, very, and could be that potential one plus, but anyway, and then, you know, it hasn't happened. Even we've been back in it. What it has, it wasn't the same. Yeah.

So whether, whether they didn't all die, probably not, you know, no, they're around and, and it's knowing what you're looking at and getting, getting time to, you know, so I always say like, man, if you get a chance to go on a sheep tag, get any experience you can before it's, you know, crunch time and it's your own tag. I mean, you don't, you know, like it's hard to be an expert in six days at, at judging sheep. It's probably one of the hardest things to do. So like, you know, anytime you get on sheep hunt, you know, no matter who draws a tag go. Cause that's, that's how you gain that experience to know what you're actually looking at. I think a lot of people, they, they shoot sheep and they go like, Oh geez, I thought it was different. You know, but no, it's, it's, it's, I think there's some pretty decent options for non-residents this year. Yeah.

You know, not a lot of them, you know, seven or eight total. I can't remember, but you know, you know, units, but the amount 24, 214, 340, 422. Yeah. 482, 422 is a great, you know, that's a front unit. That's a great one. It's always easy, fun, rut hunt piled, you know, sheep piled up on the front range right there in November. Yeah. So anyway, not a lot to choose from, but Hey, beggars aren't choosing to come to sheep or always usually dreamers. And like you said, sheep management sensitive cause you got a kind of a fragile species. And a lot of guys are believing that every ram should die with somebody behind it and they don't care about the quality as much. So, you know, they're scared to waste them. So they've got the biological tendencies that they do to overpopulate and you got rogue rams bursting at the seams, going out, picking up something, bringing it back.

And then the catastrophic thing happens. But I want to see some big sheep. And Bronson, we're dealing with it here in Utah. Guys want to see, even if they're sickle horns, they want them to have hunters behind them. Yeah. And I understand that to a degree, but man, don't you want to see some good rams once in a while? We've seen it in Utah. Look at the units for deserts and Rockies historically that are our best units. Both of them for the last few years haven't maybe been because Zion's been hammered. Yeah, oh yeah. You know, Koperowitz West and East have been getting hammered. And then you got these fringe units, onesies and twosies out there. I mean, last year we killed a 170 net desert on the Otis Ball unit. That's right. And it surprised me. I'm not even, I'm not even going to pretend like, hey, I saw it coming. I'm not. But it was a giant ram and a onesie-twosie unit.

And that's kind of what Burns is talking about in one of these western, we'll call them western Montana mountain units. Call it a 214, two tag area. Yeah, no, 422. Some Bob Marshall ram drifts low or you go back in and some of those Bob Marshall units. Or even in Region 3, they got some big rams in Region 3 and some units. So you can just, when you're the one or one of two guys in there, like you said, just the two to three years of the draw cycle and who's drawn them and how much time they had to put into them or their circumstances, it's such a small sample size. Those are places we need to apply. I just have a hard time going out and, you know, you want to feel like you can see something super special. And in Montana you can. It's different. That's a different state. You can in every unit. I understand that. We can't not ask you about unlimiteds.

I mean, there's a lot of people that have questions. There's probably even more questions now because of the reasons we've talked about, the difficulty of getting sheep tags anyway. Well, at some point that'll go away and we'll all feel bad that we didn't capitalize on that. People will be like, oh, that was stupid. We didn't go at least... I don't know if it will. I mean, I think they're doing a good job of managing. I think there's as many rams as, you know, there's good rams in there more so than they've ever had. And they seem to manage it very well. You know, occasionally they'll kill an extra ram on accident just because of the 48-hour closure. But they're doing a pretty proactive job and there's a lot. It's been pretty good. I mean, it's a time commitment. I mean, it's one of those things where, you know, like there is no secret.

If somebody tells you they got a secret spot, there's almost never been the same ram, you know, a ram killed in the same spot. They're totally nomadic. But that's the beauty of it. Vast country. And they're basically, most of these are units. They don't want to take people's points from them because the year you draw, it might be terrible. You can't find the sheep. You burn your points. You don't kill one. But like, all right, we set a three-quarter curl limitation. Go have at it. Most of them, I think, are all two ram quotas, if I remember right. Yep. Off the top of my head. But go have at it, man. Go crush it. And people shouldn't be afraid of it. But y'all show, don't be afraid to have to do it two, three times before maybe you learn something. Oh, there's guys that have done it a dozen times. Yeah. You know.

Yeah, if you put a 10-year plan together, which, you know, anymore, that's what you got to do. And you can throw a week or two at it at a time. I mean, it definitely seems like the people that put in the most time and don't stop after the season closes and continue to scout and look around, like those guys kind of are the luckiest guys. And that's, I wouldn't call that luck. So there's definitely an option. You know, I mean, there's six more. I mean, it's nearly the same amount of rams available as are in the draw. And you can just get one over the counter and go. So, you know, it just depends. I mean, you know, it's just tough hunting. I mean, the fact that there's really not an outfitter since Jack Ashton quit doing it in the 90s that has consistently ever produced a sheep. I mean, like most, I would say almost every sheep is killed on your own. Self-guided with buddies.

Just team buddies that are saying, hey, I've done it and I'll help you after I kill one. I'll help you till you kill one for a few years, you know, whatever it takes. Yeah. It's definitely an option. And anymore, you know, given the landscape of Rocky Mountain Bighorns. I mean, I've said it for a long time. We've talked about this before. But, you know, when it comes to like the Grand Slam and stuff, there's far more guys that are going to die without Rocky than any other sheep. Any other. Like, you just because something has to go right. It's the one you can't. It feels like you can't buy it, you know. You can't make it happen. Can't book a hunt for it, per se. No, and the price has been going. Yeah, that's right. With high enough success rate to say, if I just spend the money, I'm going to kill one. And like, and we've already talked about, you almost can't do that with stone sheep.

But, but. But it's like, Brandon, guys that are hunting with you that have hunted Canada how many times, you know, and not made it happen. And we know lots of guys ourselves. That's why all these lower 48 Rocky tags are nuts in price, because you're going to kill one if you just write the check and the other state tag. So. Yeah. And it's a bummer. Like some of those Canadian areas, you know, like you can't kill what's not there. I mean, the way they've got to set up with the, which I get it with the residents get to hunt early. And some of those areas are surrounded, you know, they got parks and it's heavy on migratory sheep. And, you know, they're just, it's just not a lot of them. Well, and you get four fifths curl limitations and stuff like that to where like a lot of places, if you get an older ram that bruns off, he's not legal anymore.

So you got to shoot a five or six year old right, right when he's finally pushed enough horn out there to be legal. In some cases, that's what you got to shoot. But it's just a. So Brandon, I've got a challenge for you. Bronson doesn't know. I don't know what he's going to say. He's going rogue right now. We need, we need to find Bronson a big bull moose. Oh, geez. He's got max points. Trust me. I've had Burns. Burns has tapped out with his, his knowledge years ago and I'm not holding you. I'm not faulting you for it. There's new units. No, no. There's new units. There's new opportunities for non-residents. If he could hatch one, I'm sure I would be the first one. I've seen far more. I've seen, I've seen far more 200 inch sheep than I have moose that you would want to take the Cape on. Like, I mean, it's just something I don't, you just don't see a lot of them.

I don't hunt Western Montana that much either, but it's, it's definitely one of those things where you just, you do not see the, I actually, when I had my goat tag in, uh, down here south of Bozeman, I, I ran into the guy that was hunting moose and I actually, you know, like I saw a fork fork and a spike together and it's an older guy and I, I told him where they were and he went up and killed it. And the guy had been hunting for 20 something days. That's the only moose I saw. I was telling Jason, you look at some of these days to per harvest and it's in the 20s. 29. And I'm thinking, yeah. Who do you tap out? It's a moose. One guy didn't have 40. Oh, I'd have to pull up the raw data, but it's like, who, who keeps hunting? Who would, I would tap out. I mean, it doesn't, maybe it doesn't mean enough to me or I'm just maybe got other things going.

Is it a local that went out for an afternoon? Every count of 40 times. It probably means some of that, but, but not when you see the same unit over 20 days every single year. Yeah. It's rough. Yeah. Well, I think people think if you, if you put in and draw one, like you're going to go get a moose, but I mean, if you really look at it, like in your head, like how many moose do you actually see? Cause it's not many for me. Like I don't know. They're not hard to see. And I don't see many of them. It's almost like seeing a lion out in the wild without dogs. Yeah. Kind of tough, tough. Well, anyway, well, I knew you couldn't help me, but thanks Jason for trying to look out for me. Brendan, you've got, you've got a lot of contacts. Somebody's going to find something. Brendan probably has max points for moose too.

Cause he probably started back when it happened and I knew, and I knew he drew goat. He's drawn his goat and sheep. So I know he's done on those. I drew, I drew a moose when I was in, uh, when I was a sophomore in high school and killed a really good one with a rifle, but it was before the set. And I mean, I think I may be one under, yeah, maybe one under max or max. I waited your seven years and you might've missed the first or second year. 90. Have you got a, have you got a plan? Have you got something in 93? Yeah. I just apply for area. That's got pretty good. I mean, I, I, that was the last animal in Montana I need to kill with my bow. Okay. And so I, I, I go to area that's got a high population and there's, there's a bunch of them down the stuff in Southwest. I kind of bounce around in a bunch of those areas where, where I do see a few moose, but

you know, it's definitely, I wouldn't call it the heyday for moose. That's for sure. And, and, you know, it's tough. It's like, you know, not a big moose hunter in Montana. And I, and I primarily spend most of my time east of here. So I don't really spend my time in moose habitat either, which, you know, like I said. Makes sense. But not a lot, a whole lot of change probably in the goat world either. I mean, we, we gloss, we talk a lot more about sheep in Montana than we do the moose and the goat. We'd moose. What we just talked about is what we say. There's been better days and you're lucky to kill a big one. And there could be a good one anywhere. One, one. There absolutely could. And again, it's the same thing. They're so low density. Yeah. And there's so few people that hunt really, really hard that would draw a tag.

It wouldn't, wouldn't see something that was acceptable and be done that, you know, there could be, there can be a giant. That's where you see those, you know, those great big, you know, 55 inches and stuff could kill. It's like, wow, where did that come from? It's like, well, he zigged when everybody else zagged for four or five years. And that's how he got big. Yeah. And then goats. I mean, you know, you got some, some units like the square buttes and bridges. And all that are kind of been known as the best. And we can, as an honor as I put in for the bridges, but outside a couple of those, you talk about the Absarcas, you know, all the stuff lying in the Northern park boundary there through, you know, from Red Lodge back to Gardner, all those units, just the biggest, vastest amount of goat habitat I've ever seen. I've hunted 316 20 years ago.

And it's just kind of a little tiny unit in the middle of all that. And it does have a little bit of access to trailheads. So I didn't even have to, well, I did use a horse. I talked about that. That's when you, yeah. I rode a pack. Rode the pack tree. Rode a pack tree. Yeah. The guy forgot saddles. But anyway, that's another story. Anyway, keep on going. But it's just, man, it's vast, Brennan. It is enormous. And then you get into, you know, Western Montana, it feels like you got a little more fragmented goat populations here and there as you work your way west. But in general, a lot of good classic, I guess you just call them classic backcountry goat hunts for mostly good average goats, but just classic country. Beware of bears in a lot of it too, grizzlies. Yeah. And I think that the, you know, all of these units, I'm looking at everything that's available

than our residents, like they're, they're, they're all, you know, plenty of goats in there. It's, it's great hunting. I freaking love goat hunting. I had, you know, finally after 29 years, obviously drew one and killed a big one with my bow and had, it's just a phenomenal hunt. But, um, you know, the thing I would just recommend anybody that drew is don't wait for hair. Like they, they're plenty haired up early, especially, but I think, I think the problem, I think the problem that people have is they, they have this plan. Like, I'm going to wait just be, just because the season goes till November doesn't mean that's when you should not be there. No. Yeah. I mean, I, I was hunting September 1st, which is where the area I drew and those billies were plenty haired up September 1st, like not, not, not tennis ball haired up, but like really well haired up.

It was already snowing, you know, the 29th of August and places like, I don't, I don't think people understand what that, what that country gets, even in late summer. Get the job done before the weather. Oh yeah. It comes in. If you remember, it's been eight or 10 years ago. They used to all open up September 15th and they had a winter that, uh, early September that crushed like three feet of snow in the back country. And like 75% of the people couldn't even go hunt the rest of the year. And so they moved it to September 1st for that very reason. Just get going, get, get hunting. I waited till October. I guess I dodged a bullet and I was, that was 20 years ago. I waited till like the fifth or eighth or ninth or 10th or somewhere. And it was bluebird weather that year and I was got lucky, I guess, but yeah, we, we

see it and we hear probably that's the, probably I would say the biggest reason people are, if you're in good condition and you are able to hunt hard, that's probably still the biggest reason you don't kill one as you get weathered out. If people are able to go hunt hard, it feels like. Well, and here's the thing, like, just cause you can start hunting. Like I mean, here on a classic example, I like, I had a couple of big billies picked out September one, made a plan. I didn't make it happen. I didn't arrow a big billy until October 8th. There you go. Just cause you know, you know, you bump him once and he goes on to some cliffs. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I mean, if they're not in a good spot, you're not going to get them. And I would, I would definitely spend the time tying the goat you want. If you decide he doesn't have the hair, then we'll just keep an eye on him until he does.

But you know, they don't miraculously all of a sudden turn into puff ball September 20th. I mean, it's progressive and it's pretty fast too, but yeah, there's, there's a, and it's, like I said, it's a great hunt. There's not really a ton of pressure to it. The difference between a mega giant and a really big one or not, you know, eight and a half to 10 and a half is not that big of a deal. And, and you know, we have a lot of really good goats and, and there's a lot, you know, you generally can find some help and they're not the hardest thing to find in the world. They're just the hardest, they're just tough to find in the right spot. That's right. Well, I agree. Well, anything else we haven't covered up there and big sky country? Yeah, no, I think that's kind of a basic wrap. Yeah. Those are pretty much the big changes and hopefully, uh, yeah, we'll see.

Like I said, I'm, I've been every day hoping we'll, uh, is it, you think it's coming out like this week or next week? Well, I called it. I called it by the time everybody listens to this, it'll be out. But I mean, I called it a day or two ago and they, they told me first to next week, but sometimes they tell you that just so you quit bothering them and then they throw it up. You get the first gal that answers the phone and they don't really know, but yeah. So it should be soon. I think by first or second, Monday, Tuesday, next week, the latest, but anyway, we'll see. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. We're good times. That'll be interesting. It'll be interesting to see. I'm, I'm, uh, I'm hoping that the, uh, that all the changes haven't, haven't affected it to where the odds are. Cause you just, it's, you know, when you have zero idea, what those odds are going to be. No idea. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, besides that, do you got anything else already planned for the year? Cashing in points somewhere that you're going to talk about? Are you going up North? You mentioned you're going to hunt bears again. Is this your year? You've been four years or whatever. So it's your four years up. Yep. I'm going brown bear hunting with Lance again. And the exact same thing we did four years ago. I can't believe it's been four years, but yeah, I've been shooting my bow every day, getting, getting ready to rock and, uh, leave on, on May 7th. And I've kind of, that's, that's one of those things. I just absolutely love that hunt and going to do that every four years until, until they, they tell me I can't come back. Um, so, and we'll see, like I said, it's, it's a fun place to be. I've obviously killed a giant in the past.

So be pretty picky and, and don't need, you know, brown bears are one of those things like two brown bear mounts is probably one too many. So like, you know, you get a place to be a special bear. Well, your last one was special. Well, you haven't even got all your text every day. Of course he was ugly. He only had one ear, if I remember right. So you might shoot a pretty one this time. Shoot one with two ears. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I'm, I'm kidding. I understand now why back in the late 1800s, everybody went to the head mount and it's just straight for room. They were far ahead of us. Oh yeah. Yeah. But no, I'm looking forward to brown bear hunting. That'll kick it off here for you in a couple of weeks then here. Yep. And I'm going stone sheep hunting in the Yukon in August. And then the normal stuff I'm in, I'm in every drawing for everything. It's awesome. Yeah.

I mean, I'm hoping you guys will rub off some good luck. I'd love to hunt Nevada one of these days, but it seems like I've been behind the, behind the eight ball on, on, on drawing Nevada since the day I started hunting. Yeah. Well, for elk especially, it is, it's really tough to draw there. It is, but it's, it's very rewarding in those elite two or three units that are pretty special. So yeah, you got something if you, when you get it, but good luck. And you're going, you're going back. You, you're doll sheep hunt this fall. My four years is up. So yeah. Yeah. I think yours will be next year. You're a year behind me. So you can hunt sheep in Alaska next year. Mine's up this year and I'm looking forward to that return trip there and whatnot. It's awesome. So yeah, we'll see what the draws do to us all. We'll have to maybe check back in the end of summer or something like that.

When are you, when are you going to go, uh, when are you going on your next sheep hunt there, Jason, or you still got those, those furry headed muleys are still, I, yeah, I don't know, Brendan. I'm not sure. I, uh, I should, I just, uh, got deer plans, man. I got some project bucks and a few things and it's just all consuming. Uh, you know, so anyway. No, it is. It's, I, I, I mean, you, you, you always say it, but it's true. It's like, you just don't have time for a second passion when it comes to, you know, like for you, mule deer, for me, for elk and sheep. It's like, boy, they're just, you just can't slip anything else in there if you want to do it right. No, that's right. That's right. So, you know, I've kind of, I've, I don't know, I've accomplished a lot of goals and whatnot. And I'm, I mean, I'm looking forward to drawing, you know, I've got other sheep things that

I want to do, but, uh, for right now, I mean, I've got, there's just a few projects that I've got to keep working on, you know what I mean? And so anyway, can't talk about everything on the, on it. Yeah, no, I get it. We're going to turn it back on you now. Stay tuned. I wanted to know everything about you and your elk cutting plans, but I don't want to tell you anything. So, yeah, well, it's all right. You can send me the coordinates. I won't be there. The lower 48 is so competitive, Brendan, isn't it? It's just tough. It is. It's a, I say it all the time. It's a weird time. There, there are no secrets anymore that, I mean, it's just, it is, it's a very, very, you know, like, it's just, it's a tough time to be, you know, you got to be super secretive about everything. And, and it's, uh, you know, between the mapping software and applicate, all that stuff.

It's like, you know, you truly got to have your own, your own plan for what you want to do because it's, uh, it's definitely more competitive. I need a big mountain Rocky. I need a big mountain Rocky and I need a dark, a gorgeous, dark, big stone. And it's just, they're so hard to come by and not cheap. And I'm spending a good portion of money hitting deer really hard. You know what I mean? And so anyway, but that's, that, that is kind of what I want. So. Okay. Yeah. All right. I'm sure we'll talk again soon, but. Yeah. Good luck in the draws. Thanks again, guys. Hey, appreciate your time as always. And what you guys are doing at CUE, you guys been with us from the very beginning, before the beginning. So we appreciate that. And, uh, your partnership there and always fun to talk. Always appreciate the partnership and the friendship and always good to chat with you guys.

And yeah, thanks a lot. We appreciate it, Brendan. See you, man. Thanks. Take it easy. You betcha. Yep. At Epic Outdoors, we help you reach your hunting dreams, whether it's helping you to develop a long-term application strategy or finding the perfect outfitter for your next hunt. As a member of Epic Outdoors, you'll also receive the Epic Outdoors magazine and have access to the best hunting consultants in the industry, online tools, and more. To join Epic Outdoors, visit epicoutdoors.com or call 435-263-0777.