EP 25: Cary Jellison Nevada and California Hunting

Just a stud of a ram. They typically get about 100 inches of rain a year up there. Unique to California or the elk subspecies. You know, it's a little different hunting. Anything to do with western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter here with the Epic Outdoors Podcast. Got a super awesome guest with us here today. Just want to throw a shout out out there to Under Armour. We appreciate them and their sponsorship of the podcast. And of course sponsoring Epic Outdoors in a variety of capacities. And so, just super appreciative of them and all that they do for Epic Outdoors. And so, anyway, hey, what are you doing? Oh, I'm not doing much. I'm actually feeling pretty good. The turkey season ended yesterday. And the first time I've actually got to sleep. First time I've slept past about 4 o'clock in about 6 weeks. So, it's pretty nice. Are you guiding turkeys or what are you doing? Yeah, I have been. Our shotgun season starts in March and it goes for 37 days.

And then we have two weeks of archery season after you hunt them with a shotgun for 37 days. So, does it work best to call them in or are you just in blinds, you know, ambushing them? We don't ambush. It's all calling. It's, I mean, if we're archery hunting, you're relegated to a blind. You know, if we're shotgun hunting, we'll hike and call and sit next to a tree. It's just way more effective because you can get closer to them, you know. You just can't do that with a blind. And if you're walking and calling, all of a sudden bird gobbles. I mean, sometimes those things are on you in 5 or 10 seconds. You hit a call just before you crest a rear. Oh, yeah. They can be on you, you know, like right now. Yeah, that's good. What kind of birds are they? They're rios. Are they? Oh, that's great. Yeah, they're rios. Yeah.

Well, all right, as we get started here, maybe why don't you just kind of introduce yourself, like, you know, where you're located now and kind of where you've been. And let's just kind of dive into this a little bit, like, you know, the places you like to guide and kind of what's brought you to where you're at today. Yeah. So I live in Colpax, California, which is about 80 miles from Reno. You know, I grew up hunting and fishing. I mean, my grandfather and dad both did that. And I sort of fell in love when I was a kid. I was lucky I lived in a place where I could actually go right out my backyard and, I mean, literally hunt from my front door. And I think the first pheasant I killed was like 35 yards from my front door. Jeez. So, yeah, it was pretty nice. My grades were a lot better during bird season because I could pretty well hunt from September 1st till the end of January.

And my parents were able to hold that over my head because I couldn't go hunting until my homework was done. So my grades were always better then because we had doves and quail and pheasants. No big game, but, you know, I could, a lot of bird hunting that I could do right literally from my front door. Yeah. Just kind of fell in love with it, you know. Yeah. Well, Colton, so then what did you do, like, initially, you know, right out of high school? I mean, how did you get into guiding for a living and, you know, versus other jobs that you may or may not have had? Yeah. So I went to college. I went to junior college for two years. And then I was offered a job as a union iron worker. And I went ahead and did that and, you know, made a good living. But after, I don't know, I did it for like 17 years, I did it.

And I don't know, the last seven years, I probably did it more part-time because I ended up starting my guiding business. But it just got to the point where I was like, I've got to find something better to do. And I think the straw that broke the camel's back was I was on a job one day and there was like 12 of us and I was always in charge. So I was the only guy that hadn't been in prison on the job. And I was like, you know, I got to find something else to do here. So my best friend, Joe Gower, came to me and said, hey, I'm thinking about starting a guide service. What do you think? And I said, let me think about it. And then we ended up doing that together. And after a couple of years, he decided he was not really into the guiding. And so he quit doing it. We're still, he's still my best friend. Is that how you got your name then? Your outfitter name? Yes, it is.

It's Gower and Jellison. And I just never changed it. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. So what, what year roughly was that, that you started that? And then what year was it you decided, hey, I'm going full time? Yeah, I think that was like 95. We started. And then, oh, I think I started full time. Probably. I know I was lucky because I had a job where I could take off, you know, I could take off the whole month of turkey season. I could take off all the deer season. I could take off. So that's kind of how I worked into it, you know? Yeah. So when you started this G&J and, you know, got cranking on it, did you, I know you do Nevada. Of course, you're doing California as well. But, I mean, did you always do Nevada and California? Did it start out mostly California? I mean, how did you guys? Well, it started out the first year, all we did was turkey hunting in California. Oh.

And then I started doing fishing trips. And then real shortly after that, I can't remember the second year or third year, started doing Nevada. And then just kind of grew from there, you know? I mean, it just started taking off. So how many years have you been doing, like, Nevada specifically and now maybe big game stuff in California? Because I know that's what we, you know, as we've, Jason and I have gotten to know you, what we kind of label you as is big game outfitter, even though you do turkey and all that other stuff. How many years have you been doing the big game in Nevada and then California now? I think about 20. Yeah, I think about 20. Yeah, that's great. And so what do you, let's talk about California a little bit. Like, tell us the different species that you're guiding for. I mean, I know you're big into the desert sheep there in Nevada.

Are you doing the desert sheep units there in California even? I mean, I know there's not very many tags, tough to draw and all that. But are you guiding in some of those or just mostly some of the elk? Yeah, I don't do much in California. I mean, I did a sheep hunt last year in California. I had a guy in the marble clippers. You know, the only people that are really going to hire me probably in California are my clients. You know? Yeah. Even though, I mean, we went down there and we killed a bigger ram than anybody else killed in the unit. And, you know, there was another outfitter down there. And we killed a bigger ram than the governor's head killed. Did you kill, was that like 173-incher? Yes, it was. Just a stud of a ram. Tell me about the marbles. Yeah. What was it like? And, I mean, what else did you see? Just what did you think overall of the hunt?

Well, it made me not want to go back to Nevada and sheep hunt. Did it really? Really? Yeah, it's really good. I mean, it's, they should be giving a lot more tags. I mean, you're seeing, there was days where we're seeing 30-plus rams a day. Jeez. And, yeah. Well, that's funny because Adam and I spent a little bit of time in Nevada and we don't want to go back to Utah. Right, right. So, you're saying it's that much better than even Nevada, which has a lot of sheep. So, that's amazing. Yeah, no, it's really good. I mean, it's really good. So, you're all open to do that, obviously. But with 15 or 20 total tags a year being drawn, that's your, that's the bottleneck. And very small pool of applicants that are probably going to hook up with you. But very capable and able to do that and willing to, it sounds like. Yeah, I mean, I love, I love doing it.

But, you know, like you said, there's only 15 tags. And of those guys, you know, maybe half of them. I mean, there might be six, seven, eight guys hiring an outfitter. And it's just, you know, it's just one of those, one of those deals. Plus, I'm, you know, busy doing a lot of other stuff. And, you know, I can't do it until January and it opens in December, which is fine. You know, but a lot of guys, you know, a lot of guys want to go the first day. They think they need to be out there the first day to kill a, you know, a big ram. And it's just not the case. But you can't tell guys that sometimes. So, we did feature that photo there in our magazine. We sure appreciate you on that. And, anyway, was that one of the, was that the biggest ram you'd seen? Or, I mean, was there, you know, did you feel like there was a couple rams better than that?

No, there was, you know, we definitely saw some rams that are in that class. You know, whether or not they were a few inches bigger. But, you know, it's, I mean, we were trying to find a 180-inch ram. But, you know, that is, they don't grow on trees. No, it's rare, rare. Have you spent any time in any of the others, the oracopias? Yeah, I have. I've spent time in almost all of them. And, you know, but it's, and I mean, I know most of them, there's a couple that I have. And I haven't been in the sheep holes. But most of the other ones I've been in and spent time in. But, you know, it's, like I said, it's, I don't really try to get any business down there. You know, I mean, if somebody calls me and wants me to do it, I'll definitely go do it. But I don't, I don't spend any time trying to advertise it. You know, it's just not, it's not there. You know, the business just isn't there. Yeah.

Well, you know, unique to California, switching gears just a little bit, are, are the elk species, subspecies. And I know you've been very involved in some of those over the years for Roosevelt and Thule, things like that. So maybe let's just take those one at a time and talk about maybe we'll just pick Roosevelt first. Tell us a little bit about some of your experience there. Some of the bigger bulls you've killed. You know, some of the limitations, things like that. It is a, you know, they do have these in Washington and Oregon and whatnot. But from my perspective, California's got the biggest from a trophic potential standpoint. As far as lower 48, I mean, you've got Vancouver Island, different places like that. But anyway, tell us a little bit about Roosevelt elk and the units you maybe wanted to take people in, how you've done recently and things like that. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I mean, I've done those for a long, long time that we've got some really, really big bulls. I think the biggest bull we've killed is 363. You know, a lot of people don't realize, I mean, the Boone and Crockett minimum is 290. So, I mean, you know, people go, oh, that's a nice bull. You know, it's not a Rocky Mountain. It's a nice Rocky Mountain bull. You know, it's a huge Roosevelt. Wow. And we've, you know, we've killed quite a few that are, you know, 340 plus. And it's, you know, it's a little different hunting. You know, they typically get about 100 inches of rain a year up there. And, you know, you're not, you know, my $5,000 Koa and Dr. Binoculars are useless. They leave them home, huh? Exactly. They're, you know, it's pretty much calling and, you know, and they don't, you know, they don't bugle as much as the Tuleys or the Rockies do. So, they're a little harder to find.

It's a little tougher hunting. And it's not a, if a guy needs to see a bunch of bulls every day, he doesn't want to go do it. Because he's not going to see a bunch of bulls every day. But the one you see might be a really big one, you know. Wow. So, tell us about that. I mean, you're just hunting thick terrain. Is it just calling a lot? Or is it, I mean, how, what's your technique on that? Well, it's a lot of calling. I mean, it's, you know, put trail cameras up and see what you can find, you know. But even that, they've got to walk in front of the trail camera when they get 100 inches of rain. It's not like, you know. Not putting it up on water holes, you know. No. We're in area 23 and 24 in Nevada, you know. I mean, it's, there's water everywhere. So, I mean, they, you know, it's a picture of them, you know, when that's the case. So, you know, I put cameras up.

And, you know, we'll catch them sometimes. But most of it's, you know, calling and seeing what comes out of the woods, you know. Well, forgive my ignorance. But, I mean, can you use trophy rock or salt or anything like that? Or is California one of those states that can't do that? You know, I never have. You can't do it while you're hunting. Yeah. You know, and we have laws, like, in California about baiting. You know, you can't hunt over bait, and that would be bait. You know, you can, and I think it is, if it's cleaned up 10 days before the hunt, you know. So, I could probably put them out. I'd have to check. But I could probably put them out and then put a camera on them and pick them up 10 days before we started hunting. I'd probably be okay. But I've never done it. I've never done it. So, which unit specifically do you spend most of your time in for Roosevelt's then?

Well, they've changed the way they do everything because they've turned a bunch of these hunts into PLMs. And so, which is a private land management, which is a landowner tag. And so, I do now. I used to do a lot of them, but three of them went away. So, now I do the northwest hunt is the only one that I do that's a draw hunt is the northwest hunt. I see. And then you're still able to help facilitate or set up or guide or outfit hunts with private land tags? I've got landowners. I've got, yeah, private land tags. I've got PLM tags. And I've got PLM tags. And I also have landowner tags sometimes. There's a difference in California. We have people call them landowner tags. They're not all landowner tags. There's PLM tags. And that's where the landowner does habitat improvement work according to what the Department of Fish and Wildlife wants them to do.

And in exchange for that, they get landowner tags. Then there's landowner tags, which you apply for and you draw through a draw system. And say there's 20 tags on the northwest hunt. Let's say 20% of that number will be given to landowners that apply that have, and I think it's 600 acres or something like that. And I've got landowners that apply for those tags. And then when they draw those tags, sometimes I buy those tags from them. So there's two different ways that I can get landowner tags. And so when you get the tag, a landowner tag and a PLM tag to the hunter is the same thing, good for the same season, so to speak. There's no preferential treatment on a PLM tag versus a landowner tag? No, there is. The PLM tag season is basically two months long. It's all of September and October. You can hunt with any weapon.

And where the landowner tags, you've got to hunt those northwest season dates. I see. Now, in both those cases, are you restricted to just the private land only, or can you hunt all private land within the unit with access permission, or is it just that one specific private landowner's property? You're restricted to that one specific property. It's not like Nevada where you can go on the public or go elsewhere. You have to stay on that piece of property. So if a guy has 600 acres, then, you know, you're restricted to that 600, and that's your hunt versus, you know, a little bit bigger ranch. Okay. Well, that's pretty cool. You've been able to have a... Yeah, like my PLM, the PLM that I have is, you know, it's, I don't know, what is it, 30,000 acres or something like that. Giant. Yeah. That's pretty cool. You can, you know, have a big, long season like that on a PLM tag.

Like, that's a great opportunity for somebody. Is that something where, is there a market value established for these tags, Kerry? Well, it's, you know, it just depends. Like, those landowner tags, they don't hold the drawing until July. And so those things don't, the market value on those is not as much as like the PLM tags where you can have those years in advance and you know what you're getting and guys can book years in advance. It's the landowner tags, they draw those things in middle of July and then they're trying to sell them. A lot of times they'll have people lined up to buy them. But those are probably, I would say, the market value of those is going to be a little less than like a PLM tag where you know years in advance if you have them. Wow. That's crazy. And so, well, a guy like you is out, you know, working with landowners nonstop.

Sounds like landowner is the way to go or at least, you know, a big factor in the equation to kill a big Roosevelt. Yeah, especially for non-residents because we only give, for our sheep and our elk, we give up to one non-resident elk tag, which means there might not even be a non-resident elk tag. But once they pull one out of the hat, that's it, you know. And heaven forbid somebody puts in for a cow grizzly island or something and draws that, right? Because that would come out as the quota, the cow tag. Yeah. Yeah, it's just a tough, that makes it, the draws are just tough. It's tough for us to cover them and we talk about them, as you know. And, but, you know, it just makes sense to do what you're doing and for, if a guy wants a Roosevelt to contact you and to work with you or guys like you, I don't know. I actually don't know that many guys that are doing it.

Is there a group of outfitters doing it or anything or is it? There's not a lot. No, there's not a lot. There's more and more trying to get into doing it, you know, but no, there's not a lot. And so are you working these landowners like, kind of like units? It's like, so we have units obviously in other states and as you know, and you're guiding in other states. But, I mean, that are known to kill big bulls or big rams or big bucks or whatever. I mean, you know, you've probably got properties that are known for big bulls, big Roosevelt's. And one property is probably better than another and maybe even genetically a little bit different or the habitat or whatever. I mean, is there properties that, I mean, are more valuable? Are you finding that or is it something just generally speaking? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. There are definitely places that are different, like you said.

I mean, there's places where they tend to kill bigger bulls and you might not see as many animals and places where there's more animals. But you might not kill as many, you know, as big a bull. And I've got one ranch that he draws land under tags once in a while. And then if a guy draws a tag, I can guide on that ranch. And he's got some really big bulls. And then it just changes. You know, they started that northwest hunt the first several years. It was amazing because those elk hadn't ever been hunted. Yeah. And there was, you know, there was, I mean, really, really big bulls. And now they got up to, I think they got up to about 40, 45 tags. You guys probably keep better track of that than I do. And then, you know, now they've cut it back down. You know, so some areas have kind of gone downhill a little bit. You know, some areas are still as good as they were.

And, I mean, they did cut it back down, which is a good thing. The problem is they were given either sex tags in September. Well, an either sex tag in September is a bull tag. Yeah. You know. That's right. I mean, yeah, I talked for years about it. And, you know, when you give an either sex tag in September, everybody's going to kill a bull. Nobody's going to kill a cow because you're not going to see cows without bulls. That's right. So, given these different factors here, PLM tags, private land tags, two-month-long seasons or shorter within the regular season framework that the state sets, can you give us or maybe some of our listeners a price range, I guess, for some of these, you know, quality Roosevelt hunts? What's your price range? It's not going to be one set price because there's variables. No, yeah.

So, I mean, you know, if a guy wants to buy a landowner tag, I think that I've got those before for guided, you know, the tag and the guide fees and everything for like $15,000 before because they draw them in July and they can't get rid of them. And then I've, you know, up to maybe, say, $23,500 on the other end. There's some of the broader season dates, maybe top-end trophy potential, all those types. Yeah. So, high-end price-wise, but, you know, like I alluded earlier, it seems like you guys' quality in California Roosevelt is really, even though you said maybe it slips slightly in some of these units, is it still as good as anywhere, I think, in the lower 48, no question. I do, yeah. Yeah, I think so. I agree. It's just an interesting way to go about, you know, picking up a tag outfitter and actually, you know, being able to hunt them. I mean, it's just interesting.

You know, a lot of these, you know, guys can do it on their own and they can apply in the draw. And it's a feasible way to actually get a tag and go hunting and even hire an outfitter if they need. But that's just not the case. It's like they really need to go this route, especially if, you know, a trophy Roosevelt hunter needs to talk to a guy like you and, you know, plan for it and do it.

Well, you know what I tell people? I mean, I'm 53 years old and I've been applying for elk and sheep in California for 40 years, you know. And I've drawn a sheep and an elk tag in Nevada as a non-resident, but I can't draw one in my home state. You know, I think it's easier to draw a tag in Nevada than it is as a non-resident than it is as a resident in California. Yeah. Well, you know, and we, as Jason said earlier, we do cover, you know, all the big game species, at least in California. We realize the odds are tough. It doesn't matter whether they're really hard to justify me applying as a non-resident, but it doesn't mean they're easy to justify as a resident either. But you're there, you're spending, you know, minimal, you know, amount on top of a hunting license you're going to apply. So, unique to California is the tule elk subspecies.

So, maybe just like we did with Roosevelt, let's talk a little bit about the uniqueness of the tule. And I know we'll get into maybe some of the differences in a bit when we compare Roosevelt and tule habitat and behavior, rut, and all that. But tell us a little bit about the hunting opportunities for tule that exist that you, I know there's some similar type programs as well for those. So, tell us about them. Yeah, there's definitely more PLMs for tules than there is for Roosevelt in the state. You know, the tags are getting really, you guys know this, the tags are getting really hard to find. I mean, they're more sought after than anything. I mean, they're really hard to find anymore. You know, we've also got some really good draw areas. Again, it's really hard to draw. I mean, the Grizzly Island hunt, East Park Reservoir hunt. I mean, we really don't have a bad hunt.

You know, some of those hunts down south, I don't really do much with or know much about. But the way the state does it with managing the elk and the sheep, you know, if they give tags, it's usually a pretty doggone good hunt. You know, and they tend to rut earlier. You know, I've been down there at Grizzly Island before with the auction tag in July and watched elk just, I mean, screaming and fighting and everything else. You'd think it was the middle of September. Wow. Well, we noticed, yeah, a lot of the first kill pictures of the year, you know, other than some of those early sheep hunts, you know, in Canada. But, I mean, the first kill pics of the year are coming from the California auction hunters. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, they have a real problem with breaking antlers. I mean, real bad. Everywhere except Grizzly Island. Grizzly Island doesn't really happen much.

But, you know, they have a real problem with breaking antlers. So, you know, if you can hunt them earlier, you're a lot better off in most of those places. And they're different. I mean, you'll see the first time you see tule elk running around screaming, bugling in the middle of the day when it's 100 plus degrees, you'll be like, what in the heck is going on here? You know what I mean? And they do. It would be 100 plus degrees and they're running around bugling. I mean, they're just, they're different. As we talk about them, let's just back up just a little. Let's talk about the differences of tule versus Roosevelt versus Rocky. Is it just location? I mean, obviously, there's other differences. But just talk about that a little bit. So, location-wise, most of our, all of our Roosevelt's are in the northwest corner of the state.

Most of your tule elk are in the simple part, although we've got some in the northern part. We've killed bulls out there at Grizzly Island live on the hoof. And that's the only place I've ever weighed an elk in my life. So, don't ask me what to do elk weigh because I don't really know. But we have weighed them at Grizzly Island. And we've weighed them at Grizzly Island. They were over 800 pounds. Wow. But most of your tule elk, I think, are going to be in the neighborhood of 450 pounds on most of the other places. I mean, it's night and day difference. The size of, the body size of a bull at East Park Reservoir versus out at Grizzly Island is, I mean, they're almost twice as big. I mean, they're just, it's amazing the size difference. No, that's crazy. They got some crazy antlers, too. They just grow a lot of non-typicals, it seems like. Yeah. Yeah, and they're scored differently.

Their scoring system's not the same, you know, as a Rocky Mountain elk. Anything that comes off the fourth point or above the fourth point counts as, you know, total net score. There's no deduction. Deduction past the sword time. Yeah. No, and I know we've talked to you in the past about Grizzly Island and East Park Reservoir. I know you've killed some big bulls on some of those hunts. Again, scoring systems are different, things like that. But those hunts, from what you've told us, I know are pretty dang good hunts. I know you've killed some great bulls in East Park Reservoir. You've told us that's an awesome, awesome hunt there. What, some of the better bulls you've taken on some of these hunts, whether it be, you know, a draw clients or whatnot? Let's see. The biggest toolie that we took was, at CI, he was, I think he was 363 or 362.

At the time we killed him, he was number two in the world, SCI.

And then we took another one. I don't know. We took several that were net, Boone, and Crockett, like 321, I think, 326. You know, I mean, really good bulls. Good bulls. I mean, yeah. Yeah. So tell us briefly, do you have access similarly to the PLM or private landowner tags there, like you do the Roosevelt's? You know, I don't. The only thing that I have access to would be guiding toolie elk is the auction tags. I've got a guy that I'll, you know, pass along his information to guys sometimes. But I don't have any PLM. I'm trying to get some. I'm working on it right now. I'm trying to get some of those. But they're really hard to get your hands on. I mean, really hard. A lot of those toolie elk, are they just out in that wide open country that's glassable compared to the Roosevelt's?

I mean, is that generally, you know, it looks, a lot of those pictures, it just seems like I got in the desert. And Adam and I haven't actually, you know, hunted them. And so they're kind of interesting. Yeah, they typically live in more open country. You know, a lot less rain. You know, you're not getting 100 inches of average rainfall a year. You know, they're a lot easier to hunt, for sure. Yeah. A lot easier to hunt. Have you been on some of the Rocky Mountain elk hunts at all or had any of your clients draw anything up there? They've got some really big Rocky Mountain elk up there. I kind of stay away from up there. I've just got so much other stuff going on. And they kill some really big bulls up there. Giants. Northeastern. Yeah. Yeah, they kill some big bulls up there. But I don't do anything up there.

What about that same part of the states where some of the, well, the bulk of all the antelope punts are located? Similarly, do you spend much time getting any antelope punters up there? Yeah, I do do antelope punts up there. The problem is a lot of times by the time the California stuff comes up, I'm already booked up in Nevada with antelope punts. And so I can't do them. I got you. Because I usually have land on our antelope tags in Nevada and then draw guys in Nevada. And there again, it's a lot easier to draw an antelope tag as a California resident in Nevada than it is to draw a tag in your own state. Yeah. What do you think in terms of units? I mean, you're a resident there. You've guided some there. What do you think? I mean, we cover pretty much all the antelope units there, so I guess there's not a lot of surprises.

But do you have one that you favor or like more than the other or a couple that you think are some of your favorites for better antelope? I like the laughing and likely tables. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Those are the two areas I like. And I know them better. And there's some really good antelope in there. When you mean good, like you're talking, is there a few book heads taken there each year? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there is. I mean, you know how that is. They don't grow on trees. There's no guarantee you're going to kill a bunny crock at antelope. Yeah. Definitely. They're definitely there. I mean, there's definitely some there. Well, what about, I know your operation in Nevada, you spend, you take a fair number of deer hunters around the state. And so in California, maybe you don't have the time to do that many, but maybe talk with us a little bit about that.

And if you don't, what you still feel, you know, is a worthwhile hunt. I know, you know, when we're comparing all mule deer hunts throughout the western U.S. and then you get to California, the list isn't super deep in terms of trophy units or comparable trophy units to every other state. But give us your thoughts on California deer, I guess. In a couple words, it's not worth doing. You know, I probably talked for 30 seconds there because I was talking to a California resident. I didn't want to offend you, but since, yeah, you're talking openly. No. It pretty much sucks. So here's the deal. Here's the deal. I mean, and it's not that we don't have some really big deer, because we do. I mean, there's, you know what I mean? Yeah, there is some, I mean, and I got a picture of a deer a few years ago on trail camera that was, oh, he was probably a 200-inch deer.

But he had 13 points on one side and I think 11 on the other. But it's, I haven't had a deer tag myself in this state for over 20 years. I have max points. Holy cow. Part of it's because of what I do. We don't hunt mountain lions. So our deer population is just a fraction of what it was like when I was a kid. Wow. And now they've outlawed hound hunting of bears, you know. So, you know, what happens is a lot of people don't realize a lion goes and they say a lion kills a deer a week. Well, around here a lion kills a deer, then he buries it, and then they'll typically eat a couple more meals off it to last them a week. Well, around here they kill a deer, they bury it, and the bear comes and eats it. And then he's got to go kill another deer. And then another. So our lions probably kill 100 deer a year, you know. Oh, my gosh.

Well, so a resident with max points, like, what are you applying for? We might need to adjust those units, help you adjust those to get drawn. For, yeah. For a resident with max points in California? Yeah, like, well, what's your goal? Like, what's your favorite go-to? Well, I would probably, and I'm just, I'm probably going to wait until I get done guiding, you know, and then go. I would say the Doyle Muzzle Letter hunt is a good one. The Devil's Garden hunt is a good one. You know, that Goodale hunt, which is the one everybody thinks is the best one to stay, I think it's overrated. I've been down there a couple times and spent a week down there during that hunt, and I think it's overrated. You know, they used to kill a few really big deer in there, but the, well, I mean, it's hard to find a 4x4 in there.

I mean, there's a lot of 3x2s and big forks and horns and big, you know, the genetics are just, they need to do like you guys do on the Henrys and have management hunting there is what they need to do. Yeah, you'd still have people using max points on it, you know, that people do. Oh, absolutely. Some people just don't care, you know, especially the residents. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, your odds there with max points is last year, they were like 1 in 15. You know, that's not that great considering, you know, what it really is. So, you know, you brought up the Henrys, so I'm going to go with it for a bit. I know we talk to you about every year about you're one of the couple handfuls of remaining max point holders for deer here in Utah. And so what you're telling me is you're not treating California's max points at all like you are your Utah deer max points.

You're funny. Just want to be clear on that. You're not, you're not, you don't plan your whole fall around what you might draw for deer in California then. You don't plan your own. No. Okay. No. No, you don't. All right. We've ground on California quite a bit, but yeah. So, uh, what are you going to do? And you, you know, we did talk a little bit about some different scenarios to try to get you drawn. It looks like Game and Fish is always considering something like that. You never know what it might change to. Yeah. I mean, I'm hoping I read a lot of letters this year and I'm hoping they change that where I can, you know, have a shot at drawing an archery tag where they give a max point archery tag, but every other year, you know, whatever they decide to do. I mean, it would be nice to have a shot to bow hunt.

But, um, you know, I just, I went on my buddy's hunt a couple of years ago and, and, uh, with a rifle and I just, you know, he was 200 yards of a deer and somebody shot 1250 yards at it, you know, four times. And, um, I just, I just didn't avoid that. Yeah. So you do more of the archery or muds or something like that? Yeah. Yeah. The archery or muds is what I'd prefer to do. Absolutely. So you've killed, I know, you know, over the years, you know, you've helped guys kill, I don't know, hundreds and hundreds of deer in Nevada and in different places. But, uh, what would you be holding out for, Kerry? Like, what are you, what are you looking for? Well, I mean, according, according to what you guys tell me, I should be able to kill a deer, you know, I mean, I know what I saw over there when I was there during the rifle season. And I know by then a lot of them are gone.

Um, you know, we, my buddy, we had my buddy on the deer that, uh, we thought he was like 220 and we had another deer that was like 220. I think they said it was 223 when they killed it. They killed it opening day and we were hunting this other deer. That was our backup deer. So, um, you know, the, the, you know, our backup deer was killed the first morning and our, our other deer was being hunted by another outfitter. And, you know, they ended up shooting at 1250 yards and we were 200 yards of it. So it's, I just, it kind of soured me on the whole, the whole rifle hunt back there, you know, but I, I would, I would hope. I try and find some, some of those, you know, a deer like that to go hunt, whether or not I can kill it, you know, when you're bow hunting, it's not that easy. And I'm, I'm a, I'm a mediocre bow hunter, so I'm pretty good at finding them.

But, but I'm not, I'm not a guy like, uh, you know, one of my clients, Walt Palmer, that can kill stuff at a hundred yards. I'm not that way. Well, you're definitely the archery and muzzleloader hunt down there are definitely the better hunts. And you've been down there enough to, to get a feel for that and know what got taken off the mountain by the earlier hunts before you guys got there. So we wish you luck. We shouldn't, maybe, uh, in the next week or so, we'll know some draw results here in Utah. So good luck. Keep my fingers crossed. Tell us a little bit about your Nevada hunting. I know, uh, you know, you've done some of these odd units for elk.

I call them odd because they're not this, you know, traditional ELE units that everybody talks about, but take us through some of those units that you guide, guide in on, on that, uh, give you a little break off California and talk about something really fun. So, uh, anyway, maybe like the, and not that California is not fun. We go there on vacation once in a while. So anyway, there's a few good things there. And I hate to, we have, we actually have a lot of members from California. It just, you know, it's just, it's just tough from a non-resident perspective. And so I hate to, you know, bag on it too much, but there's a lot of good people from California, but even, even you guys, you know, get frustrated with your own state. So, um, but anyway, talk about like the 061071 or the 06 is 07 is just kind of some of the different, uh, units and kind of your take on some of those.

Um, I know you've been super successful in some of those, uh, you know, like I say, odd units. They're not odd, but, but, uh, different units that are maybe not the non-traditional trophy units. Uh, the last two years in, uh, area six on the muzzler hunt, we've taken a 370 and a 393. And then, uh, you know, the area 16, uh, we've taken quite a few bulls, like, uh, 330 to 360. Um, about the same up in, uh, area seven and area eight, uh, the 076, 777, 7908, 100. Yeah.

Okay. And then, um, on the area 16, how are you hunting it? Are you going back in on horseback? You just backpacking it? How are you doing it? You know, we'll hike in and, and we, it depends on the client, you know, it depends on the client we've got. Um, but we had country that a lot of guys just don't hunt at all, you know? Yeah. Some of the stuff that, I mean, I've hunted over there before in five days and not seen an elk hunter, you know? Wow. So you're even some of the lower stuff that's not, not necessarily a backpack hunt. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're, sometimes we'll, we'll go in and, you know, do that if we've got a guy that can do that. It depends on what we've got. But, um, most of the time we're just camping and, you know, hunting from a camp and, and going that route. But we don't, we don't backpack into the wilderness area or anything.

Or, you know, do horses in the wilderness area. Okay. Okay. All right. What are some of your, what's your, your favorite, you know, your favorite hunts to hunt up there for elk? Uh, for, for Nevada? Yeah. For Nevada. Um, you know, I, I, I'd say, uh, the, the, that area six muzzleloader hunter is by far, by far and away our favorite. Um, you know, then in 16, some of those early hunts they have in 16, they rotate them. Like this year, they've got an early rifle hunt in, uh, in area 16. And that's a, that's, that's a hard one to beat, you know? Yeah. That's a tough one to draw too. But that early hunt does give a guy an opportunity with a rifle. But how do you, how do you think that, that August 16th archery there in the 06 is ends on the 31st? Generally, you know, generally archery hunts allow you to hunt the rut. That's going to be a little bit tough.

I mean, but what are the pros and cons of, of hunting bulls that early with a bow? Well, it's, it's different, you know, I wish, I wish they'd do it in area 16. If they do it in area 16, I'd be really excited about it. Um, because, you know, that, that August 16th, when you find a bull, he's going to be there every day. Yeah. Okay. So basically, you know, early season, you're going to, they're just stuck to water. You're going to be able to, you know, pre-scout them, hunt them and kind of hunt them before they move to rut or chase cows. It sounds like, tell us, you know, kind of why you were liking that early archery hunt, the August 16th, 31st, the pros and cons of that season. What a guy should, I mean, is it good? Is it something you would do yourself? I mean, you feel like you'll kill a. No. Yeah. No.

So yeah, it's, I mean, I think it's a, it's a, it's a different hunt, you know, so you're going to be stalking animals. And, you know, when you're guiding an archery hunter, stalking, I don't care if it's deer or sheep or elk, it, it pretty much, you know, you find it as an, as a guide, you find the animals and then you say, go get it. You know, and, and. So yeah, it's a lot more up to the hunter from that point on. Yeah. Yeah. You know, with a gun, you take them and you lay down with them and you say, okay, go ahead, take your time. And then you're right there with them. Where with a, with a bow hunt, you know, you're, you know, he's got to go do it. So it just depends on a guy's ability to stalk and, you know, what kind of bow hunter is where when you're calling stuff, you can do a little more for the client, you know? So there's, there's pros and cons to it.

You know, the, like I said, the elk are, the elk are typically there. You know, when you find an elk, you know, you can find them again that time of the year where when you get into that transition period where they might be traveling 20 miles to rut, you can certainly lose a big bull. How about the, uh, very glassable in there? I mean, it's big country, huge country. And I know there's some big deer in there too, but it's glassable. Yeah. Yeah, it's glassable. It's definitely glassable. How about, uh, how does it compare to, to, to 061071?

Um, you know, the 061071, I don't do much in because I don't have that forest service for it. Um, but it's, you know, it's a, it's a better hunt than 061071. Okay. All right. Um, well, cool. And then you said definitely, definitely like the muzzleloader hunt. Is it just, is it these dates of September 1st to the 16th? I mean, what makes that muzzleloader hunt in your mind? Well, the, I mean, the, the dates are good, but you know, the, you guys can shoot a little further than they can with a bow. That's, that's probably the biggest thing. Um, you know, the, you know, the date, the dates are definitely, definitely help. Uh, but the, the, the fact that they can shoot a little further, I'd say that's, that's probably the biggest part of it. You know? Yeah. No shortage of good bulls. I mean, no shortage, obviously you're killing a 370, a 393. I mean, that, those are intense bulls.

That's awesome. Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's a good hunt. It's not, you know, it's not one of the ones that are the, uh, more popular ones as far as big bulls, but it's, there's some big bulls in there for sure. Well, that's great. Tell us a little bit about, um, deer, which I know Nevada is a little bit unique in that you already have quite a bit of, uh, quite a bit of hunters probably booked up because of the outfitter draw, guide draw in Nevada, uh, with the regular draw still to come. Um, but tell us about some of the units you typically like to take the bulk of your deer hunters in. I know you've, you've got a lot of units in the state. You probably can guide and do guide, but tell us ones that you think you really tend to maximize. You think the tags out for the guys that you get booked there? Yeah. Yeah.

So, I mean, I, most of my guys that come out with me, I put it in the guide draw, like you're talking about. I, I drew 14 guys this year, so I've got 14 deer hunters already booked. Um, the, uh, um, but I'm not hunting the areas that produce the 200 inch deer. You know, we've never killed it. We've never killed a 200 inch deer. I mean, the biggest deer we've ever killed, we actually, last year we killed 194 inch deer, I think. Um, you know, but these are guys that want to go hunting. And I've got one guy's drawn a deer tag in Nevada seven years in a row, a rifle deer tag. Through the guide draw. So, right. Through the guide draw. Yeah. Yeah. So we hunt, uh, we hunt a lot of different areas because some of my guys live, you know, in one part of the state. And some of my guys live in another part of the state. So, you know, but we hunt, um, the central part, the area 14, 15, 16, and 17.

We hunt those a lot. Uh, also areas six, seven, and eight. And then we also hunt like, uh, over on the West side on the California border area to, uh, Oh, we hunt an O3-1, um, you know, and we'll even go, we'll even go down there. I, I've been putting guys in for 231, 241, but you know, even in the guide draw, that's a, that's a really hard draw. There's no, there's no good deer over on this side, Kerry. Just remember that. Just remember that. Well, a couple of my guides drew 241 tags last year, and they, they disagree with you. I know. I know. How did they, did they, did they do okay? Did they do pretty good? They did, yeah. Uh, they, Joe killed like a 213 deer, and, and, uh, Rick killed, uh, uh, oh, it was like a 32 and a half inch buck. non-typical just a cool deer you know old deer heavy you know just not a great scoring deer but

just a really cool deer you know i saw a picture of joe's book and it is such a stud so anyway tell him congrats for us but you know tell us about this like the 03 one like i mean it used to be those 03s did awesome that corner of the state was amazing you know and it wasn't i mean even um you know not too long ago and even in my life i've i've known it where we were sending lots of guys there and they were killing 200 inch deer it's just never been the same um but what do you see in there why isn't it like it used to be what do you think the factors are over there you know honestly well i mean you know there's a lot of things i mean that that fire probably you know that that might have something to do with that was a pretty big fire they had in there a few years ago and i didn't hunt it back when they were killing the big deer so i can't really speak to that but i mean i can tell

you what i've hunted it the last several years and and getting and i've got clients in there again this year and you know i mean i'm telling guys we're trying to find 170 inch deer you know and i mean i've seen some bigger ones in there um we i was scouting for the uh governor's sheep tag a couple years ago we had the california bighorn governor's tag and i was i was scouting up in there i i did see a deer in there then that was probably 185 maybe 190 um but you know the i i don't know i don't know why you know a lot of those a lot of the areas all the areas down in central nevada the same way i mean most of the areas i hunt a lot of them was you know the last couple years they've been better you know of course we had some rain that helps you know the whole state's been better you know but yeah you did you've you've done you've done really well in 14 15 all that country and i know you've

been backpacking hiking like crazy of course i visit with locher quite a bit with about it you know and and he's doing some of those hunts for you but tell me a little bit about uh area six late you know obviously some great bucks in there seven late's been some been having some good deer and then the eight you know 081 and some of that country seems to be coming back and doing really well what are you seeing uh do you like them i mean what's your thoughts on those well yeah i love them it's just you know it's the getting a tag is you know there's not that many tags and it's it's tough you know to get it you know we we had a guy in there last year um and he was he was uh oh i think he was like 73 years old in fact he he killed a hundred and nine like a 34 inch buck that was like 194 up there and six late and uh he actually passed away about four or five days after the hunt

yeah yeah it was a but the seven late and six late and 081 you know i i'd rather hunt all those areas than 14 15 16 you know 17 but i mean it's just you know most of my guys like i said they want to go hunt and and you know they can draw a tag down there so i put all those guys in for those choices you know the first three choices and then the last couple we put in some easier ones so they can go hunt and so um you know they're tough to draw you know but yeah i i love those areas i mean there's you know to kill a 180 plus deer i mean those are you know they're definitely very good areas and you might get lucky and kill it like that guy last year and kill a 190 plus deer and you and there's 200 inch deer and you get lucky and kill one of those oh there are i think there was an absolute monster kill out 07s last year but anyway yeah just uh one of the best deer killed in the state so

it's there's great potential in some of that uh anyway just it's awesome of course any deer tag like you say they're in nevada's uh you know kind of there's they're sought after fairly hard to get and and it's uh it's good there's guys like you that are you know putting guys on tags every single year that's there's something to be said for that in this day and age so um what about antelope are you guiding antelope there and in nevada quite a bit tell us a little bit about that and and your thoughts there yeah i've been uh um last last two years the antelope hunt has been really good and we've killed boon and crock and antelope both years um we killed two boon and crock and antelope last year and one the year before and and i'm i'm i'm hunting some of the central areas that you know most people don't really talk about um oh yeah 14 yeah 14 15 16 area 14 15 16 yeah yeah

oh six oh you know area six area seven um you know that kind of country um i also hunt up there in oh three one and i hunt in area two and area four you know but i actually to be honest with you i prefer that central stuff i mean it's uh it's easier to draw and and uh i mean there's we've we've killed some pretty well we could last year we killed a 84 inch antelope down there in central nevada you know i mean it's you know they don't grow on trees yeah well those are big enough you know anything 82 plus is big no matter where it's living so right anyway well last i guess but not least um want to talk about sheep a little bit i know both jason and i are very fond of them as we know are you and you've been a part of many awesome hunts in nevada both for the california bighorns like you've talked about briefly and then uh desert sheep killing some some giants

there so it seems like for us you know we're very busy we're not full-time outfitters like yourself and and go out and you know take as many hunters a year so if we can end up taking one guy or two a year in the end of nevada sheep season that's a perfect end to our year because you know the end in november the weather's usually better than it is here in utah and you know nobody's quite ready to be done hunting by november 20th so but for you i mean tell us about some of your thoughts the way we see it just seems like right now things have collectively almost never been better i mean over you know 300 tags a year over 30 non-resident tags a year in nevada so um hard to not you know look at nevada as one of the best desert sheep states going right now

agree with everything you just said and except and and i might add that i mean i just there's nothing i'd rather do than sheep hunt and i know you're the same way adam so it's you know i mean there's just nothing better than sheep hunting so i totally agree with everything you said and um you know the the hunting is excellent you know it's funny because you get these guys that draw a tag and they call and you know um they read about sheep hunting and maybe they've never been or maybe they've been and they've been on difficult sheep hunts or unsuccessful sheep hunts or you know somewhere in canada and not seen a ram or you know something like that and they're like well i'm going to shoot the first legal ram we see and i'm like that works you know or they think it's too difficult to apply for physically and it's just not you know and so we're kind of spoiled in

nevada i mean as far as the the physically the ease of you know what you can do with a guy if he's not in as good a shape and the quality of the sheep and the number of sheep you know you're you're gonna you know i tell guys you're gonna see rams every day unless we have a storm and we can't see the mountain you're gonna see rams every day and and uh it's it's a lot of fun and it's if i could make my living doing nothing but that i'd do it but unfortunately there's not a long enough season and not enough tags that's right there's there's plenty of tags but not like you said not enough you know four weeks you can't you know book a year-long salary worth of desert sheep hunters right not enough yeah there's there's a ton of it i tell all my clients in california you got a better chance of drawing a sheep tag in nevada i think than you do in california as a resident yeah i would agree well

and and like you said you know you can the biggest thing in nevada is generally you got to know what's available in the unit that the guy's drawn but but really uh just don't get don't get in a hurry a lot of times some of the hunts we've been on hunting late even in december they go you know just as just as good now if you have a pre-scouted ram or two it's always nice to be right there opening day and take care of business and but but you're right moderate to easy access and you know guides and outfitters can really just put your hunter at ease knowing uh you're gonna kill one just let us wait for that really you know a step above ram so to speak so that you're you know maximizing your tag out because you're gonna kill a sheep there there's not very many places where somebody's gonna be in

over their head in nevada on a sheep hunt so yeah no i i totally agree i mean guys will ask him what's your success rate and then when i tell them it's 100 they say we've never had an unsuccessful and they're like really it's no and it's it's not because i mean we're pretty good at what we bigger reason is because of what you just said how good the hunting is you know and and they manage the you know they manage it very well and give a limited number of tags and you know the um unlike you i prefer to hunt i don't know about you guys but i i prefer to hunt later in the season at you know um i prefer to not go on the rat race yeah especially some units i know like like you know the muddies and others that got 26 or 30 tags it it can be like a general season deer hunt driving around on that thing the opening weekend it's it's not like a once-a-lifetime desert sheep hunt the

way you would think would be like so yeah you know 30 days use the season wisely and you're gonna kill a nice ramp so yeah you know the number of tags is one thing it's it but then each guy each tag holder has got you know five or ten people in camp with them you know and so it it puts a lot of people in the mountain as we kind of come to a close do you want do you have anything you want to add or like any crazy experiences you want to talk about or something just way cool you've been involved with so many kills and of course a lot of trophy animals as well and just i don't know if there's uh some kind of story you want to share with us oh my gosh how much time do we have well if it's really good carry we sit here for another hour well i do this really i mean my wife used to tell me i should write a book because the stuff that

happens is just unbelievable and you know some of the i don't know i mean i at one time we had we were roosevelt elk hunting and and uh there was myself one of my guides and the hunter we were bow hunting and we were walking along through these trees and all of a sudden my guide who was the third one and i was i was in the front you know and i and my eyes are up looking 100 yards from me which is about as far as you could see and we walked up on this there and i mean it was about two yards and my guys i mean he must have been deaf because we weren't being that quiet you know and my guy's like hey i'm like i'm there i'm stopping he's hey stop and he's trying to get me back and i'm looking 100 yards in front of me i'm thinking there's a bull right there and you know we just about walked right to the top and had to be a deaf bear

well we sure appreciate you let's appreciate your time if you've been you've been in the industry as long as i can remember you've got a lot of experience i'd encourage anybody out there that's listening that's interested in california elk or any of the different species especially here in nevada as well um you know to visit with carrie he's always always willing to visit with people and super personable and a lot of knowledge to to share with us so anyway just sure appreciate you carrie yeah no problem appreciate you guys and everything you guys have done for me and and uh no problem at all okay well good luck in the draws a bunch coming up here soon so hope to hear good news from you you guys too all right thanks buddy you bet take care all right bye you