EP 260: Jim Winjum and his ARCHERY North America 29, Kenetrek Boots and The Busy Season

Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, John Peterson, and Logan. How you doing, Logan? I'm doing alright. Alright. Coming at you from southern Utah. Bronson, John, we're always excited when there's a little snow in the air. I don't know how much we got, maybe a quarter of an inch. Yeah, the mountains look like they got more, so that's good. We've had a little bit of a drier spell. We had a good summer and fall, but it's been dry for a few weeks. So, it's been cold, but we got some moisture finally. Overall, better. Lions are starting to die. I've seen people killing lions. Yeah. It's always a good thing. Our good buddy Schaefer stopped in. They smashed one. It's pretty awesome. Well, anyway, kind of an exciting time of year. We've been working our guts out, getting the January magazine ready.

We're also planning and prep for the new year. Just a lot going on. A lot more to talk about on future podcasts. So, anyway, we're just getting started. We're cranking like crazy around here at Epic Outdoors. So, anyway, anybody out there that is looking to learn more about us, go to epicoutdoors.com. John, we've got an e-mag on there. It shows everybody what we do. Yeah, we've got a sample on there so you can log on, check out our magazine. I mean, we've had some requests on some topics to cover on the podcast. And rest assured, if you're a member, we talk about any changes, any regulation changes for the year. You'll know anything you need to know if you're a member. We talk about a fair amount of it on the podcast as well. But any suggestions are welcome, right? Yeah. I mean, that's fine. You're welcome. But just, if you don't want to miss anything, join our service. Okay. Yeah.

And that's $150 a year. And it's a little more. We mentioned magazine. Okay. But it's a little bit more than that. It's heavy, heavy research-based publication. Nine issues a year. It's monthly, December through June, bimonthly when we're in the field. So, it's awesome. We also help guys apply. If you need a little more help, we have additional services that will be able to help you actually get in the application process accurately. And, of course, we help guys choose units and whatnot. Sometimes we just do it all, depending on what a guy or gal wants us to do. So, John, you talked about, we talk about everything hunting-based. We also dive into personal lives, don't we, Logan? Oh, yeah. A little too much. So, anyway, yeah, if you have any specific requests, why, Logan, how can they reach out to Epic on social media?

We're on basically every social media platform, Facebook, Instagram, Instagram, TikTok, Twitter at Epic Hunts, and then Facebook at Epic Outdoors. We check those direct messages and comments daily. So, any questions you got that you put on social media, there's a good chance we'll get back to you pretty quick. You mostly, right? You do. Yeah. Right on. So, we're glad you do that. And then, anyway, so feel free to reach out. Of course, that comes direct to us, and we review it, and we'll talk about it. It gives us, you know, things to think about. So, we appreciate that.

Golly, what else do we need to talk about real quick before we get cranking? Oh, I don't know. Do we just write in the middle of January magazine? Yeah, we're doing that. We also, we did want to mention, Brownson, we got a stack, a product that came in. We got EL ranges from Swarro stacked. Buy all those. Those are ready. Ready to go for Christmas. You want a pair for Christmas? Know somebody that might buy those for you for Christmas? Just tell them to call us. We'll put them in the mail to them. That's right. You'll get them for Christmas. We also got the Kilo 10s. So, they're the six-hour version of a binocular rangefinder combo 10x42s. We've got them here. As well as the regular 8K rangefinder only, non-bino. We got them. These are the most extremely tough products to get, and to have them in stock is pretty awesome, especially around Christmas time. A lot of other things, too.

And even Fierce Rifles, we've got a lot of those on stock, too. So, check with us first if you're thinking of buying something like that, and chances are we got it. We can get it to you quick. Any women out there that are looking to buy your husband something, why, we've got a few ideas for you. So, give us a holler. Give us a call. Reach out on social media. Logan will pass it on, and we'll definitely visit with you about Christmas and gifts, things like that. All right, guys. Well, we've kind of slated this podcast to review a great partner of ours, Kenetrek, and Jim Wingen. We usually like to visit with him once a year. Super good guy. Really, Bronson, we've known Jim for years. No, no, 20. Yeah, 20 years. Plus years, all of us. And, yeah, been one of the original partners of ours since day one here, one of the founding partners, you know, that we've, you know, known for so long.

And he stepped up, you know, right out of the gate and hasn't ever, you know, not been there. So, great support of ours, make great boots and other gear, too. So, yeah, let's give him a call. He's also a big, avid hunter. You know, I mean, he's hunted a lot. And we're going to dive into that a little bit, too, about what he did last year, what he's got coming up maybe this year. Yeah. The one thing about the products that we endorse is we use them ourselves and believe in them. And so this is no exception with Kenetrek and the boots and different things they offer. Let's give him a holler. Can't attract boots. This is Brooke. Yeah. We need to talk to Jim. Is he around? Okay. Am I asking who's calling? It could be Jason Carter, Adam Bronson. Epic Outdoors. Okay. One sec. I'm going to check to see if he's in. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Uh-huh. Facts were made for walking.

Cradling your feet with all the support you need for side deals and more. Choose from our cowboy, grizzly, northern, and rancher outsole options. And remember, your replacement liners for daily rotation. Since our inception in 2005, we've honed our service to provide you with a bet. Hi, this is Jim. Hey, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, John here. How are you? Hey, Jason. How are you guys doing? Doing well. How's things in Montana this morning? It's hard winter. It's crisp, huh? You know, most of you guys come down to a place called Quartzite. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I know it well. That was in my desert sheep area down there. Oh, was it? Yeah, well, at least you get a, I don't know, maybe you get a look at your ram there in the office and think about warmer places on December mornings in Bozeman. That's right.

Yeah, it seems like we get so busy, I don't even visit all those mounts out there. I walk out there and go, huh, wow, these are pretty cool. Yeah, who killed these?

I know, it's like I don't have anything in my office other than big fish, but oh well. And time is flying. We were listening to the on-hold messages that said you guys got cranking in 2005, which I had forgotten. But time is just flying by. I know it, I know it. Yeah, I mean, we started the company, it was 05, 05, 05 was the date that it came up as. I mean, it wasn't intentional, it just accidentally happened that way. So when you say you started the company, is that when you opened the bank account, rented the first building? I mean, what is that? Yeah, I just filed the paperwork. There you go. And all of that. We threw out a minute ago before we teed it up, Connie, about 20 years, so we're actually three or so off. But I mean. As far as the initial inception. We knew, Jim, but prior to that. Oh yeah. It's been a long time since we've known you guys.

Yeah, it was a place for over 18 years. Yeah, so anyway. Wow. But, well, we appreciate you taking some time to get on with us. You know, we, you know, you've always been a great supporter of ours, and obviously when we opened the doors at Epic Outdoors, you were right there, you know, from the start, to have been there ever since, and we appreciate that. Very good, yeah. We just want to visit with you, I guess maybe first, before we dive into the nuts and bolts about rubber and laces and leather, but let's talk, did you go, why'd you hunt this last fall? Did you get out of, you're hunting about everything, Jim. Yeah. We want to know where you've been, and. Do you ever get tired of killing stuff? You know, the funny thing is, I don't. Like, I keep expecting it, but it just doesn't happen. I mean, I'm still, I mean, I get the adrenaline rush, I mean, and it doesn't even matter how big

it is. I mean, I can almost get as excited as shooting a white-tailed doe. Wow. I don't know. I don't even know if a guy, your products have been so tested and true, I don't even know if they can really allow your hunts to be write-offs anymore. Yeah.

Like, what are you perfecting? At some point, this is coming out of your personal pocket. The board of directors isn't going to allow this. Yeah. One of our investors says, I just want to know, do you ever work? Do you ever work? I see all the outflows. I see all the outflows. I know that. Yeah, exactly. I assume you did some stuff in Montana that you always do, you know, deer and elk and whatnot. Yeah. Any highlights there? Unfortunately, I'm always running, you know, chasing rainbows and going to other states. So this was kind of the year of the moose for us. So me and my partner, Bob, we, I got a wild hair to draw, you know, to put in and draw that haul road archery hunt for moose. Oh. You know, because I was up there a couple of years ago and we were coming out and saw two nice bulls. And I'm like, well, I should put in for that.

You know, I told Bob, I said, hey, this would be super cheap. We can do it on our own. I got a buddy in Fairbanks who can borrow his rig and it's like, you know, 70 mile road hunt. You know, how hard does that sound? Yeah. It sounds great. So we put in and I said, it's only about an 8% draw. So it might take us 10 years to draw that tag. He's like, if you're in my luck, we'll draw that year one. Boom. We draw it year one. Geez. So of course I go up there and then guys are telling me, they're like, that's a terrible hunt. It's a really low odds, terrible success hunt. And I'm like, well, I saw two coming out of there. How bad can it be? Well, it was bad. Really? People are fighting their way to get in there and nobody knows where I am. And the other hunter was there, you know, on the road. So I mean, it was like, it was gas can guy, no gas can guy, silver truck guy, red truck guy.

You had a bunch of names. Everybody's like a zombie just driving up and down that road. Geez. Looking for the elusive black vapor. And we did the asset. I mean, absolutely nothing. And then we got hit with that, that typhoon that rolled into the, you know, the Arctic up there and just dumped six inches of rain. So we had a raft that we were going to, you know, we had this big plan to float the river and get off of the road pressure. And, and the river flooded like three times the normal volume. It was like banging off the bridge. And I'm like, yeah, we're not doing that. We are, we are road hunters.

Back to the road. There's a lot of miles. I'm just like, that looks like a death trap to me. So we, we kind of, uh, uh, didn't do that. Anyway, so we were, you know, and they, they, and Coldfoot, I don't know if you've ever been there, but they have a little, you know, eatery truck stop there. So we would go there, you know, we drive our 70 miles, you know, about twice a day and we'd get off and walk. But with a moose, you don't want to pack them very far. Right. So, so you're basically kind of limited to the road. Yeah. You want to be able to back your truck up to them. Almost. Yeah. Or a side by side. You don't want to, you know, go miles or anything. And so, so we, you know, there's lots of road access there with that pipeline, but of course you can't drive any of that. So we would walk into likely looking basins, but every other hunter is doing the same exact thing.

And so, you know, any moose that's in, you know, you're just hoping for a sporadic moose. And anyway, we're, we're finally about ready to give up. We're like, you know, drowned ducks. I mean, just, just soaking wet. Everything's soaking because it's been raining for six inches. It was a lot of rain. And anyway, we're, we're, they're, they put in a tiny little cell tower at Coldfoot. And so there's a pull off there that, I mean, it only goes for like maybe a couple miles. And we're pulled off. We're both talking to our wives and I said, okay, we're going to pull out tomorrow. You know, it's totally a bust. You know, we didn't know what to expect, but I haven't even seen a moose, you know, saw one old moose track. And I look up and I'm like, there's a moose on the road. And I'm like, yes, there is no moose here. He looks up, he's like, there is. And it's a bull. It's a good bull.

Anyway, anyway, a semi comes at the semi stops and is taking pictures of this bull. And he pulls into the timber. And so we drive up there, you know, I mean, it's like half a mile away, you know, that we spot him. It was like a real straight stretch. And he crossed right by this bridge. And anyway, we boogie down there and pull off on the side pull off and grab our stuff. And we go run it out there. And we had to find a way through a swamp, you know, to cross on this little teeny peninsula. And we run out there about 400 yards and kind of found an open spot. And Bob flips the decoy up. And I, you know, puff downwind. And I run down there and come back. I'm looking for cover. There's nothing, you know. It's like this tundra flooded, you know, timber patch. And Bob rakes twice. And Cal calls once. And he's there. I mean, that was 10. No. He hasn't seen another moose in years either.

He's been walking for 200 miles to hear that noise. He's just like you, looking for something. Looking black vapor. Yeah, exactly. And so, anyway, he comes. And he must have seen me or heard me when I was plowndering around out there. And he just looks over at me, looks over at the decoy. And he comes right at me. He comes up to 10 yards. Come on. And I'm just like shooting. I'm like, I got no shot because it's right front on. I'm like, yeah, dicey shot with a moose. Yeah. And he's going to take me at any minute here. He turns. And he, you know, luckily he turned. He didn't come just stomp me. But, anyway, he turns and goes behind this tree. And I'm like, okay, as soon as he comes out of that tree, I'm going to draw and shoot him. And perfect. And all of a sudden, he catches my wind, turns, and bolts into the timber.

I jump up, go running after him, trying to see if I can get a shot, you know, in through the trees. And I find like about a 12-inch lane, you know, in between the pine trees. And right then, Bob calls. And so he heard me running, heard Bob call, and he just had one last look. He had to spin back and look back. Jeez. And I'm like, there's his chest, 40 yards. Poof, shot and caught him. Drilled him. Wow. It was absolutely amazing. You can imagine Bob's back there. He's about 60 yards away. And he's like, man, he's got to be right on top of him. Why is he shooting? And then, you know, with the moose runs, he's like, oh, no. And then he's like, sees me running like a, you know, gangly giraffe across the tundra. He's like, what is he doing? He's going to run him down. Wow. Jeez. And then he sees me shoot. He's like, what is he shooting at? Wow. It was pretty epic. Wow.

And then we walk up to that moose, and we're, you know, we're two old guys with bad backs. And it's like, holy bananas. I mean, they are gigantic. How far back to the road, roughly, did you have to shuttle meat? Well, we, because he ended up running, you know, sideways a bit, you know, and so we had to, and it's right before dark now. And we had seen five grizzlies on that. I mean, way more grizzlies than moose. Yeah. Oh, way more, way more grizzlies. Like, no thanks. They're thick in there. And anyway, so where Bob's like, all right, I've cut, you start dragging it. So I had those caribou game bags, you know, which are amazingly tough. And because I strapped my front shoulder onto the backpack, I couldn't lift it. I mean, they're so big. I'm like, what in the heck? We're not doing that. And so we got to drag them off of the carcass, you know.

And anyway, so we put them, loaded them into those game bags, and I drug like 200 yards across the tundra through the press. And we crossed this stream and made a pile, you know. And Bob's like, I am out of here as soon as it's dark. I'm like, there is no way we're leaving. You guys are having internal conflict. Jeez. Yeah, exactly. You got to be, because you can't take the horse. I'm like, I have not leaving that rack here. Yeah. That's got to be the last. Who's got the bear spray? Or what's your bear plan? You got two bows. We had a pistol and a bear spray, both of us. Oh, okay. So anyway, but it's pitch black. I mean, we didn't get out of there. We were absolutely dead. We didn't get out of there until like 1230 in the morning. And we had just hauled the stuff, crossed a little stream, and basically made kind of

a pile up and hauled everything there and then sacrificed the carcass to the bear, you know. And I never did go back in there, because I'm positive there was a grizzly. Probably four of them. Once you've got everything you legally need to remove, there's no reason to go back in the dark. No. No. I did leave a knife there, but I'm like, you know, in the dark, I'm like, well, it's only 100 bucks. They make new knives every day. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, I hope that bear cuts his gums on that knife. Jeez, Jim. That's mean. He didn't do anything. They didn't do anything to you. We were so hurt, though. I mean, you should have seen it. We were like, can't eat enough Advil. You know, both of our backs were out. Then we still had to haul 400 yards back to the road, you know. At some point, Jim. We were like, what are we doing? So when's the next moose hunt? Or did you?

Or is it mule deer from here on out? Coos. Whitetail. No, I still got to get a Canada moose. So I was really fortunate to. And then we're in the airport because we headed for our Canada moose hunt, which was a total bust, you know, because the plane broke down and the weather. Well, let's talk about it a little bit. What's wrong with the plane? He actually threw a rod in a beaver. Oh, okay. On the ground, on warm-up, or in the air? Oh, no, on floats, right? So he had to crash land into a lake. Crash land. And they called some guy. We weren't there, thank God, you know. I hardly ever hear of a beaver having problems. Those planes are like bulletproof. They've been running since the 50s. Yeah, threw a rod in that cylinder. Jeez. So he basically had to just chase, you know. Lucky he was over a lake or near a lake. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Wow.

But they call in, like, they have, you know, plane medics or something that they, I can't imagine what the bill is for that, you know. Because they both gave him. We flew over him later, and they had a big shroud set up, and they replaced that whole entire piston assembly. On that lake? In the field. Yeah, because he's like 100 miles from anywhere. Wow. Oh, jeez. So anyway, they, so Dustin pulled out his plane that they had in storage, and it's just a smaller one, you know. And then the weather was terrible, and everything was all backed up, and, you know, and it was actually, ironically, hot and rainy. And so we had one chance that we could have killed a moose with a rifle, you know, at a couple hundred yards. And he came in to, like, 90 yards from Bob, and just smelled us and spooked, you know. And that was it. That was our only chance. So kind of a busted hunt due to weather.

We didn't get to go to the spot that we thought we were going to go to, so we went to a lake that had been hunted, you know, a couple times before, and I think they were pretty well pushed off of there. Well, so you... But nonetheless, so I do got to go back for a candidate moose at some point. What does that leave it? Because, you know, every year, I mean, you've done a lot of things multiple times, but we've also noticed, you know, bison and muskox and some of these things in the last couple years that you've been checking off. How many species do you have left of North America 29th? Yeah, I basically have two caribou, two bears, brown bear and grizzly, and... Canada moose, like you just said. Canada moose and two elk, that's it. Oh, wow. Wow. You're down to the last handful or so, then. Yeah, I don't know if I'll even ever make it, you know, but I just keep chunking away

at it, try to direct you in that, you know, that direction. But back to your original point, like how much does it get on in Montana? It's like, yeah, you know, not as much because I'm off chiefs and these other things and everything is at the same time, it seems like. Yeah. Well, we get that way. I mean, here in Utah, we get general season deer. We don't get a general season elk, you know, like you guys do. But most years, we don't make something out of that, you know? We feel like everything else is newer, brighter, shinier, the grass is greener somewhere else. If it's harder to draw... You can't drive a thousand miles. Yeah. So we do that. If it's harder to draw... The harder to draw it is, the more time and energy and effort and money we, you know, throw at it. And then we got great hunts right here that we don't even utilize as much. Yep. We hear that.

Yeah, so ironically, I put in for, you know, because I knew I was going to be gone with two moose hunts, I knew I was going to be gone for the, you know, the peak of the rut for elk. And so I applied for one of the south brakes tags, and I thought, well, I might as well apply for the rifle tag, which is terrible odds to draw. Yeah. And of course, I drew it, you know. Oh. So did you get a chance to hunt that in October, November? Yeah, I ended up hunting that October, and then I had a Kansas deer hunt in November that I had set up a long time ago. So I slid down there for a couple weekends and was able to find a great bull, a nice 330 class bull. Yeah. Nice. And I'm like, that's good enough. Yeah. That's right. That's great. Well, good. Well, what... You can only eat moose meat for so long. You need to go back to elk. Yeah.

So do you have any of those six or so species that said you need anything planned for 2023 that you got... Are you going back for the Canadian moose, or are you going to do... No, I have both caribou. Oh, do you? I'll go for it. And the caribou, you know, they're spotty. Which ones are you... Which are those two? I have Central Barren Ground and then Woodland. Woodland. Okay. You know, over on Newfoundland. So, you know, with COVID and everything like that, Newfoundland one, shoot, I, you know, I'm going with Greg Sampson. I had traded him boots. I mean, I can't even remember when it was. You know, it was so long ago. So, you know... Probably your first... Or deposit or something, like three or four years ago, right? Yeah. I mean, because they only have so few tags and they get booked way in advance. Yeah. So I'm excited for that, though. I mean, it seems like he does pretty good.

You got at least a decent chance. Good. But, you know, with a bow, it's always way tougher. No. Oh, yeah. And is that... Those six or so species that have... You've done all the others with a bow. Is that right? Yeah, that's all. That's an archery. I think there's one. Like, I got to get a coos deer with archery. Yeah. You know, that killed them with a rifle, but not with a bow. Pretty impressive, man. Maybe an over-the-counter Arizona tag, you know. Wait. They're gone. Well, they are now, but I mean, you know... I did that, yeah. Did you got one? Yeah, there was only 500 left when I did. There you go. So you were in about, probably, I would say, 530 in the morning. So... I think it wasn't quite that early, but I was surprised. I'm like, you know, that's just an insurance policy. I actually was surprised they held out as long as they did.

It was probably, what, 36 hours before they sold out, or... Yeah, it was a day and a half or something. Day and a half. At least, you know, that winter lockdown that you're in in Bozeman, when you've had enough? All right. I'm flying to Phoenix. I'll see you guys in a week. I'm going to go on Tuesday with the boat. That thing is, we have show season, you know, always. So, boy, that's just... Otherwise, I'd be there every... I'd love hunting in Arizona. So if you're... Especially with a snow ski deer. If you're going to utilize that archery deer in August in Arizona, which one of your boots are you going to use? August. Well, they are. They're awesome. I'm going barefoot. Yeah. I'm just saying. Sitting in a blind... I tried that one year with Brad Refrey, my friend down there. It's... Oh, my gosh. It is so hot. It's what it is. It's a 105-degree air temp.

So you can imagine inside that blind... Yeah. I mean, it has to be 115, 120 degrees. I mean, it's just... You're... See how hot it was. And I'm not sitting in that blind with you with bare feet. Oh. Oh. Sorry, guys. I mean, I had spray bottles and everything, which coincidentally sounds just like a dough blowing, you know? Oh, jeez. So that's a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's all cool, exciting. You're... I hope you knock a couple caribou down, an inch a little bit closer to that, and whatnot. You mentioned the show season, which we obviously... It seems like a few of those is when we always get a chance to run into you, but diving maybe a little bit into that or a glimpse of either your current products, anything that's kind of new, noteworthy, modified, or whatever, or anything new. Let's... How's things at Kennetrek? How's things going? Yeah, things are really good. I mean, we...

You know, obviously, we had supply chain issues, you know, through the whole pandemic shutdown. Can't imagine that. And we just couldn't get... I mean, you just couldn't get anything. So the back orders were just ridiculous. Yeah. Thank God our customers gave us so much grace, you know? I mean, because everybody pretty much understood, you know, that, you know, we're kind of all suffering the same fate. Has that run its course and you've gotten back most SKUs or in stock? Yeah, mostly. You know, it's just a... We're kind of back to what I call a new normal, and that's that, you know, to bring a container of boots over is cost four times what it did before the pandemic. I mean, four times. Like, are you kidding? If we're lucky. And it takes two weeks longer to get here, you know? And so that's kind of the new, what things have settled at. And it is just still really frustrating.

And, of course, the inflation, you know, the cost increases are rampant. Yeah. But for the most part, inventories are doing better in terms of place and order. Yeah, we went into this year with a more solid inventory position, for sure. I mean, and it's, you know, like we stress the staff so bad. But, you know, I mean, like our poor visitor center, the guy who runs that, he'd see a guy walk in. He says, you're a ten and a half about? He says, yeah. I mean, you just see his feet, tell what size he is. You know, he's like, I got nothing for you. Gee. He didn't even ask you. He might have wanted a T-shirt. Maybe he wanted the new prototype of the slipper or something. I got nothing for you. Gee. Did it force you to look around as far as where you get some of your parts and pieces or who you have like what? Yeah. We kind of opened a new factory, you know, and some different product lines.

And so I was going to, you know, kind of chat about that a little bit. And I don't know if you guys have seen or had a chance to wear our new Corey hiker. It's a lightweight fabric leather hiker. And that's been a solid performer. So you could, I mean, this is like your COVID, you could call it your COVID lineup or whatever. Hey, these are good things that forces new SKUs. It's good. I don't know if that's going to sell very well. Avoid the name. Just my two cents is don't have that name in the title. COVID? No. How about 19? Not good. Corey 19? I don't know. Maybe. He's already got. How about the Fauci special? No. I don't know. We're just throwing out ideas. It's not. It's your job to strike them down. Jim. I think we want to all turn the page on that hole. But anyway, this does look like a great hiker.

Well, that one and the Bridger, those are the ones like, you know, if you were going to Arizona and the summer. If you're doing a, yeah, velvet Coos Deer blind hunt, maybe you throw a pair of Bridgers unlaced. Yeah. For sure. That Bridger is actually an incredible, you know, like it looks like a little regular tennis you look and move, but boy, it has a ton of support in it. Really? So, you know, for people who are used to having the support of the full Canetrek mountain boot, you know, I mean, they're thrilled. I mean, it has a five millimeter full nylon midsole in it. You could do desert sheep hunts. It's incredible. Really. Well, I'm thinking like, you know how hot it is, archery deer, deer, elk, and obviously everywhere. Nevada. Like, that's the number one toughest thing we deal with. But you still want. Oh, yeah. You need some support. Yeah.

Because you have basketball ankles, and so you go, you know, something that's ultra light, and usually there's no support. Is the sole on that like a quiet, stockable? Yeah. Well, it's not necessarily going to be the quietest, but, you know, because that support kind of goes opposed to quiet. Yeah. You know, quiet is usually softer, but then your feet sacrifice. So, yeah, you might be kicking them off to do a sock, stock, you know, if you're coming in real close or it's real crunchy. Yeah. But it's a fantastic shoe. I mean, just, that came out, you know, beyond my expectations. It's got a great heel pocket in it, so, I mean, the support is outstanding. Of course, you don't have the ankle support you do with the taller boots, but, you know, if somebody has strong ankles, and like you say, you're hunting in hotter weather, I mean, it is really. I'm going to try them out. I guarantee that.

So then as a companion to that series, we have the new Slide Rock Hiker, which is basically a, I would liken it to a quarry hiker, you know, the fabric leather in an all leather version. I see. Is that one on the website? Not yet. Okay. It's brand new. Brand new coming out. I think our first ship will be February. Are you going to have any prototypes or anything at the shows or the... Size 11? Size 11? Yeah. Yeah, we'll have that. I'm thinking that's going to be perfect for us. I just had an email like, where the heck are my samples? Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, oh, it's just, this is such a struggle, you know. Yeah. But supposedly they're leaving today, you know, and we'll, you know, just a sample set for our, we're setting show boots already, believe it or not. They all got to go next week, you know, out on the road. So it's like, oh boy. Yeah. Can't believe it's show season. We're coming.

It's coming. Yeah. Well, that's good. I'll look forward to seeing that too. So a lot of people like the shows. We like them on day one.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I really don't know. I don't know what's going to, you know, like we're having a great year. We haven't really seen, you know, a drastic slowdown. I mean, I still kind of expect a slowdown in, in 23. But. I don't know. I mean, the shows will be kind of our first indicator. And then the dealer preseason orders will be like a second indicator. And, and I, you know, I think that in 2023, if we were flat, we would, that would be a huge win. I got, I got to think you might be, be surprised. We've, we've just, we're so slammed here. Yeah. You know. I don't know. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I keep, I kept expecting it all through the fall and we just feel like we're just kicking the can down the road. You know what I mean? We've, we've had increases almost every single month. Hunters. I don't know. Off of those ridiculous pandemic highs. Oh yeah.

Those were people cooped up and, you know, non-traveling as much overseas or wherever, but they're neat. They're going to crush their own state or the West or whatever. So they still needed boats to do that with or whatever else. But I don't. I think that's going to, I think that's going to hang on for a bit, you know, I mean, at least with our customer base, you know, I mean, it's, you know, the pandemic really made people kind of reflect and think about, okay, what's important, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, you got bucket listers like me that are like, I've always wanted to do that. I'm doing it next year. You know, it's like time-based and then let's do it. And of course, you know, that ties into really good quality food sales. So. I liked the pandemic once in a while. Like it was nice to go out and have nobody out.

You liked the pandemic. I went, I would go to Nevada. There'd be nobody. Nobody. Like it was kind of nice. Well, I mean, people were locked down. You know. Now, granted, I went to Arizona for that, slid down there for an archery hunt in January. That was not locked down. It was crawling. Every person and their brother was there. That's the change of the rules. So crazy. I've never seen so many hunters. It was unbelievable. Well, back to the boots. So the Cori Bridger and then the new one, what was it called? Slide? The Slide Rock. Slide Rock. Slide Rock Hiker. It's kind of like a Moab. I'm picturing a Moab boot. I don't know. What is it? A little bit like compared to that Safari? All leather version. So it's waterproof. Okay. You know, above the ankle. Okay. Is the Cori, what, is the Cori got waterproofing in it or? It is. It is waterproof. The Bridger? Does the Bridger?

The Bridger is not. The Bridger is highly water resistant because that rubber wren comes all the way almost around, you know, and that's, that seals that joint. But that would keep us slightly cured. But it does not have the waterproof. I would like a, just a non-sealed, airy boot, like, you know, something for the desert. Well, it's kind of like when I, I use the desert guides for most of my desert sheep hunts. I used to use, before you made the desert guides, I used the hardscrabble hikers. Right. And that's the main difference between those two is the membrane, which I don't normally, I don't normally want, you know, I don't need. And I've got both of those and they're awesome. And so I go with the desert guide now and then, you know, I use like the mountain guide, you know, but those have insulation. Yeah. Mine do. Right. Yeah. Waterproofing is available.

Yeah, I find that that membrane seems like it's about a 10 to 15 degree difference, you know. There you go. I mean, they breathe, but they don't breathe as well. It's not as good. Yeah. And I don't need it. If it rains on a desert sheep hunt, you're usually thanking the heavens. Like, yeah. Bring it on. You know, I bring it on and my boots are dry in about an hour. Bronson strips down. Takes a shower. Yeah. And it stops in usually an hour or two and your boots are dry in 45 minutes after that. So you don't, you don't wick, you're not walking through brush and grass and all that, at least where I hunt desert sheep. So I don't, I don't, even in a dewy morning, it doesn't, it would never, never is an issue. But anyway, those are good. I'm going to check out those seriously for like, I'm going to look at those three. This sliding rock, the quarry and the bridger.

And I've seen the two on your, on your website and the catalog you sell, but I'm going to, I'm going to get a pair of those for my real early season. Some of the stuff we hunt, like archery elk and stuff too, it's not, it's not even mountainous, Jason. It's like grass and cedar. Or desert. Flat and desert. You know, I don't, you know, and you don't need a high upper leather boot or something like that doing it. And we're doing it in August 37th. You ever had snakes, snakes hit people with, well, we're not talking. No, I mean, I mean, I make skaters for those, but I know I'm just wondering about the desert guide or how it, how it, how it would stand up to a freaking, I've never been. I don't want to find out, but I've never had. I don't want to find out either. I don't think, I don't think Jim makes these based on. Jim, you've done a lot. What's the fang penetration? Well, he might.

Jim, Jim, you've hunted a lot in the desert. Are you scared of snakes? And then how do you remedy them? Okay. So how do you remedy that? I actually have, I actually have snake gators. Some of those Arizona hunts, you know, in August. Do you sell them? Oh, yeah. You sell them? Yeah. We don't actually. I have Kennetrek gators, but not, not like a snake gator. Not the snake gators. I'm talking the snake, the arm plate ones. Well, if nothing else good comes from this phone call, I think you ought to sell a pair of snake gators. I'm telling you, people would buy them. Jada, we were looking for them. We get asked a lot. A lot of people. There you go. I can't tell you how many times I've had that question. Are these snake proof? If it's like, I don't know. Jim, you've got to listen to your customers.

Just throwing it out there.

Well, if only in Arizona, sell them there. We could call it the epic snake gator. From Kennetrek. Let's start this skew right now. All right. Good stuff. Well, that's awesome. Jim. So besides that slide rock, anything else new or you want to talk about or modifications in your normal lines that we look forward to? Anything different that's going to be seeing in 2023? Or is that slide rock the newer boot? The only thing we're hoping for is inventory. Yeah. Yeah. It's just production. I mean, we're always tweaking things and changing things if we can find a better way to do it. But it seems like, you know, we've been, even though we've had, you know, the mountain extreme out for, you know, it's been, what, 15 years now. Your first boot, really. Yeah, exactly. But even, you know, that boot today is completely, I mean, it has evolved, you know, over many, many design changes.

Some haven't always been perfect, you know, like, you know, sometimes you have unforeseen consequences of modifying, you know, modifications. But the boot that we have today, without question, is the finest boot that I have ever offered. I mean, I've been selling boots for a long time, damn near 30 years. Jeez. And it is unbelievable, you know, the, and what goes into that boot, like, you know, like, they all look the same, right? All of the different brands. And I like to think that we've been, you know, kind of a... Proactive. Yeah. I mean, we've been... Innovative. ...kind of an example to innovation, you know, for the industry, right? I mean, the industry moves and your competition comes after you. But there's so many things that we do, subtle things, internal things, with that boot that is, it is just amazing.

I mean, like, when they skive those tongues in, you know, they actually run paper boards. You know, so I'm talking about the vamp, you know, where the whole tongue flops over on the boot. Yeah. And they'll skive that. They actually use pieces of tape to thin that so that it has, like, a preformed hinge to it. And, like, you ever wonder about our boots? Like, you take them out of the box and that tongue just drops right in place perfectly. I mean, all of that is orchestrated. I mean, and it is an amazing product. Wow. Obviously, I'm biased, but it is the finest that I've ever sold. Well, they're awesome. They always have been. I mean, we've worn them for, I don't know, I said 20 years earlier, so it can't have been 20 years, but 17, 16, something like that. And maybe boots that Jim's been a part of for 25 years. Yeah. Well, we'll get it. Yeah, that's probably true.

Jim had his blood, sweat, and tears involved in. Yeah. Yeah. Jeez. Yeah, very much so. Sheep hunting. I mean, why in the world somebody does that activity? I have no idea. Let alone moose on the haul road. Exactly. Jeez. That hunt needs to be shut down. So I'm reading the stats, you know, it's like, Bob, Bob is, you know, we're sitting at the airport waiting to go to Canada, you know, which we had to just do this crazy flight pattern because the pole border was still closed, you know, with the COVID restrictions and everything. And so we had to fly from Fairbanks to Seattle to Vancouver to Whitehorse, spend the night there, drive five and a half hours the next morning to Watson Lake, and then fly all the way almost back, you know, to, yeah, it was just insane. Jeez. You know, the travel that were required.

But, you know, whereas a few years earlier, you could just take a float plane and fly 100 miles from Juneau. But Canada wouldn't allow you to come in with that because they couldn't vet, those small operators couldn't vet COVID. Still this fall, that was, wow, interesting. Even with the border open, they wouldn't let those. A lot of people do that. They fly to Juneau and then go back into Northeast BC right there. Yeah, we're only 100 miles. Yeah, North East. Our lake was 100 miles from Juneau. I'm like, seriously, it's right over the, I mean, it would have been so nice, but just not to be. No. Handshake deals are done. Hey, so tell us a little bit about the Everstep Orthopedic. I mean, I don't know what, I was just looking at that on your website. Yeah. Yeah, the Everstep Orthopedic. I mean, we sell a tremendous volume of that boot.

That's for anybody who's had an injury or, you know, has weak ankles that needs that, that, you know, real heavy duty support. Yeah. And that, you know, so it's a very specialized boot, but that was one that I invented with a doctor. We developed, you know, like where it has a removable, like you, you think about the, the, like the Arizona brace, you know, that you, it's almost like a cast, you know, if somebody's injured or, or sprains an ankle or something like that, that laces up, right? And so it has the stays, the same nylon stays that are on the side of the ankle. Yeah. And we incorporated those into sleeved pockets within the boot. And do you, don't you put. It's almost like the boot and the braces together. Wow. And do you put those, those stays, isn't that, is that the main difference between the mountain guide and the guide ultra as well?

Don't you have that stay option in the guide ultras? We do. Yeah. The guide ultra is really an ever step. I mean, it's the same exact platform. Yeah. Got what I thought. I've seen some other sheep guides have that. I do love that. I mean, we don't sell, you know, thousands and thousands of them. Well, we probably do, but it, you know, it's not our biggest seller by any means. But I love the testimonials that, I mean, they'll just bring a tear to your eye. I mean, you know, like guys are like, you gave me my life back. Guys are doing sheep hunts that otherwise would, you know, be super nervous about it, you know? Yeah. Well, they just couldn't have that option because they would, you know, roll an ankle out. And, you know, it's just, it's just incredible to hear those, you know, those accolades that it's like, thank you for doing this, you know? Wow. And I mean, they're expensive.

They're, you know, a high dollar option for sure. But if you need it and you've gone through bad accidents or bad, you know, reconstruction of ankle surgery or whatever. We can throw it out there, but it's not, it's not that, I mean, not a, it's not crazy. It's like 600, 600. Well, gear, optics, guns, everything else is way more expensive. I mean, it's just as part of what you got to do. And especially if you have more need, if you have more need for whatever past injury, accidents, blown Achilles, you're getting over stuff like all that, you're going to want to pay the extra 150 bucks to have that. Yeah, I did one of those for Thomas Brunson. And he, you know, had almost a complete severed Achilles, you know? And I mean, he's, you know, that guy's guiding for, I don't know if you know him. Oh, we do. Out of Ely's doing some crazy, rugged country. Oh, rough country.

And he does it all about year round, you know? Lion in the winter, yeah. It just takes his lifeblood out, you know? And he called me up and he's like, what do I do? And I'm like, I don't know, you know, but we can try a couple different things. And so we, you know, were able to get him up and running. And he just, oh, he was just like, thank you, thank you, thank you. Wow. Good. That's awesome. Quite a story. I'm like, remember me when I draw that Arizona elk.

Jim, I have a feeling you trade boots pretty regular. I got a caribou hunt coming up.

I like it. It's perfect. Well. Yeah, well, you've drawn some sheep tags. You do, was it, was it your Nevada? How far apart was your Nevada and Arizona sheep tag? That same year. I thought it was. I'm going back way back. Remember, I about said it, but that was two desert, two desert tags in the same year. Yeah, you're thinking that's impossible, right? Yeah. Well, it's, I don't know. I can count them on like one hand in my life. There's, there's, you're one of the five that, that we have had that happen. I've had a couple guys draw three. They drew two Rockies. It's called the windjum look. Yeah. Yeah. But, kill the moose where there was no moose. Kills, you know, draws tags left and right. I was going to tell you, I never got to. Oh, the harvest stats. We're reading the stats in the airport, you know, waiting for a plane.

And I'm reading down through the fish and cave stats, and it literally says in there, this is a terrible, like, basically, you surmise, it's a terrible hunt. And you should not even apply for it. The long-term success on that hunt, there's 50 tags, and it's three. Oh. That's the 10-year success. And residents can shoot anything, right? Cows. Non-residents have to shoot 50 or. Don't even have to be a 50-inch. Can they shoot cows or you mean any bull? Any bull, any bull. Oh, geez. So long, the 10-year average is three. Three a year? Non-resident average is effectively zero. Like it says, most non-residents don't even hunt. Well, because they have all those people tell them, what did you do that night? They're just like, well, airfare, all the stuff up there. Okay, never mind. Yeah, I read to Bob these stats, and he's just like, why did I let you talk me into this? Why are the draws 8%?

Geez. Wow. It was a tough hunt for sure. Shot the only breeder bull in the unit. Yeah. Well, he might have came. I don't feel bad now. He might have roamed out of the Yukon that far looking for another moose. So you never know. Yeah. But, well, that's a cool story, though. Sometimes stuff just happens because you're out and you're trying. Right. And it's not always the perfect scenario of the two best moose tags in the state of Alaska, and here we are. Where it's just, hey, but hey, you got an Alaska Yukon moose, you know. Yeah, yeah. Under the belt. And maybe unlikely scenario. So that's awesome. Yeah, my Kansas whitetail, same kind of thing. You know, they set three days in a row of record-breaking heat, you know, in November. That is not ideal for run activity. And I'm like, well, I can't kill them at the lodge, you know.

So I'm out there in the dark stumbling around and trying to get into the tree stand. And, you know, I mean, those bucks you'd see, like, I'm looking across a big cornfield, and you'd just see them. They're like vampires, like first light, and they're headed back to the thick already. You know, they've been out chasing those. And they're just, you know, I mean, you're done like in a half an hour or so. I mean, it's just unbelievable. But I had a buck come out, and he literally just cut the corner and came right. I saw him at 300 yards, walking in a corner, literally walked right to him and I saw him at 15 yards. Come on. I'm like, come on. It's like, what a gift. Wow. Yeah. It's like Adam from heaven. I say that word gift a lot. And I guess if you're just out there enough, we all, you know, we hear these ending stories that, hey, they're always getting so lucky.

Well, I'm not telling you all the ones that I don't get a gift, but every once in a while they do happen. Oh, yeah. I can't remember the last time it happened to me. Yeah. Well, you're a douche. 2023 is my year. All right. Well, anything else, Jim, you'd like to either, whether it be new or just something you want to talk about, like you said, at Kenetrek? Obviously sell socks and other things. You're very good at it. Yeah. The sock line has just really expanded. I mean, we're, you know, we're trying to be better at, you know, providing. I mean, because we sell a lot consumer direct, but we also sell to a pretty significant dealer network. And so, you know, that requires us to be really on the ball, you know, to keep those guys stocked and supplied. And so we're really trying to strive to do better, you know, in the future,

because there's nothing more frustrating than they offer a line of boots. They happen to be sold out of a size tent. They call us up and we're like, yeah, we'll have that to you in April, you know. And I didn't say which year, right? Yeah. It's just super annoying, you know. Well, that's good. Good to hear, though, that things are, you're seeing progress in that, and hopefully that just only gets better. Yeah, it is getting better for sure. That's awesome. Jim, which shows are you going to be at? The only one I'm going to, it's my 20th anniversary, so I'm missing shot show for the first time, I'm missing sheep show. I mean, so I'll be in Hawaii, actually. Just, you know, chewing my arm off. What booty are you taking to Hawaii? The bridge or something. There you go, you're back to the barefoot. All right, good. Hey, when in Rome.

Just saying. So, well, that's awesome. Enjoy that over there. Which shows are your guys going to be at? Yeah, as far as Ken and Trek boots. Yeah, just if they want to see the new boots. Yeah, we'll be at all of them, you know. I mean, we do ATA and SHOT and Sheep Foundation and Dallas Safari Club, Safari Club. Do you just take orders or do you sell there? Yeah, it's really important that we're able to take, we actually have a fitting stock, and so it's important that we're able to show customers what's new, you know, and you can actually touch and feel the boots, and then, you know, you can try them on and make certain of your size. And, I mean, customers really appreciate that. And then we just write orders or write it down for them and they can order later. I mean, we usually have some type of a show special, you know, give them socks or gators or something.

Well, and you'll be at Western Hunting Conservation. Is that one of the last ones? That's a big show for us, yeah. Salt Lake, we always see you there, too. They're a sheep show, it seems like. Well, and I think one of the impressive things about your staff is the knowledge that they have. Yes. One of our popular videos on our YouTube channel, if you go to Epic Outdoors on YouTube, you can search Solving Foot Pain. And the last podcast we did. Yeah, it's got 170,000 views on that video alone. So, I've had so many people call and say, I lace my boots differently because of that video alone. So, just the staff is very, very knowledgeable. Yeah, yeah. And that helps a lot, you know, because your footwear is so important. I mean, it's just a critical piece of gear. You can get by with, you know, stuff that's not up to par in a lot of different places.

But, boy, if you don't have good footwear, it can cripple you. I tell my wife that every piece of gear we have is the most critical piece of gear ever. And we need top of the line. Is that still working for you? Oh, well, you know. She doesn't have a choice at this point. I tell my wife, yeah, it's a once-in-a-lifetime hunting opportunity. That I need once-in-a-lifetime gear. That lasted for me about. I don't say that anymore. No. She argues that about 10 years, and I haven't said it in about 15. I don't say it. She just looks at you. Well, it's not even funny anymore. They don't even think it's funny. They look at you with the glare that you don't like to get. And so it's just unique. She has actually told me that I have to quit putting my name in drawings, right? Wow. Because I'm creating bad will for me. Well, we can apply you, Jim. I mean, you don't have to put your name in.

We'll put it in for you. Yeah.

Hey, we got workarounds. Just let us know.

Workarounds. That's like my friend Chris Byer that I hunt with. He says he's got a new philosophy. He's going to use my name. He's like taking it on the road. He's going to use my name, his phone number. Oh. And I'm like, well, we have to have some kind of a licensing deal. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you can't just use my name. Right. Right. He's like, it's working so far. He's like, I'm going to sheep's soap. Did I get a badge? Put your name on it. Just go ask for a duplicate. Whatever. There's workarounds everywhere. All right. All right. Well, sounds good. Anything else, Jim? No, I don't think so. Okay. I don't think so. All right. Well, we appreciate you spending some time with us here today. It's awesome to catch up. Wish you the best of luck. Of course, you've got a lot of luck, so I'm not sure what we could add to that. But hey, wish you the best of luck in 2023.

We appreciate your partnership, support here at Epic. Of course, we support the heck out of you, too, and believe in your products. So, anyway, we sure appreciate you. Yeah, you're very welcome. And that feeling is likewise. Okay. Thanks again, Jim. Appreciate it. And stay warm up there. Stay inside. Okay. I want to head south. Head to Quartzsite and look at some sheep. All right. That sounds good. All right. Bye, guys. You bet. Bye. So, Jim's website, Kennetrek.com. You can go check out all those products and read the details, order online, and just phenomenal products. Yep. K-E-N-E-T-R-E-K, right? That's right. That's right. .com. All right, guys. Well, let's go eat some lunch. All right. All right. Thank you.