EP 275: The Epic Stuck Episode, Mule Deer and Big Game in Idaho, Wyoming, New Mexico and Nevada.

Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour.

Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson coming at you from southern Utah. It's awesome. It's like freaking 70-something degrees, Bronson. The last couple days I've seen nothing but major water coming out of that canyon. Yeah, the canyon's spitting hard right now. But it's got, it's nothing what it's going to be like. No, but I mean, we've been watching day to day. Two days ago, it was half of what it is, what it was yesterday, and who knows what's going to happen today. The mountain's warm. It's unbelievable. And yeah, they've got it diverted in like three different streams, and there's significant water coming off that hill. Will be for months. Kind of crazy. How about Josh went skiing over the weekend? Snow skiing. Yeah, he did. It was, I don't know, spring break for his kids or something like that.

And he's burnt to a crisp on the right side of his face because apparently you're right up going, you know, west to east. Spent too much time on the left. West to east, and that south face just cooked him. I don't know. I mean, hey, kudos to him. Second to third degree burns on his face, it looks like. Yeah. The old man went snowboarding. How about that? Yeah, John did it. John was up there too. They saw each other up there. Kind of crazy. I don't know. Yeah, and then how was Josh walking yesterday around the office? Seemed a little bit. Bow-legged and shuffling. Yeah, he was wounded. Sore? Yeah. Yeah, muscles you don't use if you don't ski often. Yeah, 100%. And if you try to ski aggressively, I skied as a youth. Couldn't do that through high school sports and all that just because of kind of a team rule. But skied very little after. It got expensive, of course you get.

And then I got other expensive habits like hunting. So I don't ski. And now I'm kind of spared to get back into it because you're going to blow something out. It's the same reason I quit playing church ball and stuff. You're going to blow an Achilles knee, everything else. You quit chasing Ty around the house. Yeah, exactly. Well, look at your kid. He's 16. He's had how many shoulder problems? Oh. Did a snowboarding scheme. He's had surgery. Yeah. He's down and out. I now have a permanent Trocam scouting friend for the summer. No job or nothing. Because he can't lift ice. He's an ice deliverer. Well, he does a lot. Or one of the jobs. Builds ice, makes ice, cuts ice, sells ice. Yeah. Is he going to drive, Troy? No, he can't. Oh, CDL. Got to be 18 probably. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you got? I've got a buddy for the hills.

He's awesome. In other words, that's a slave. Oh, well.

Hey, if we did human trail cams nowadays, he'd be my human trail camera. Hey, he's your last son. You might need to pass on something. I don't know. Ashley's as hard a hunter as all of them. So anyway, she's killing it. You can't quite give her the slave driver job, though. She's a girl. Daughter. You got daddy to take care of his little girl. Justin, go pound the post. Oh, yeah. You got to dislocate his shoulder. Never mind. Never mind. All right. Here's the coyote gun. Oh, it's your right shoulder we can't pound. That'll have to shoot all the coyotes. Oh, yeah. Just hand me a Pepsi, Justin. Just hand me a Pepsi. Can you give me that? Oh, poor kid. Anyway. Bummer. He's still getting trucks muddy. Trust me. I've been sending him out. He's been looking around a little bit. Not been out and about. Can't drive the stick, or is he back to driving the stick? Automatic. No, no, no, no.

He's been traveling to Arizona, cranking the hills. I mean, if he trips one time, you're back in for another three to five months. It's a problem. Those rotator cuffs, you don't mess around with them. He's like six foot two or something, and I'm just like, you know. You go down hard. You're a heap. You're all arms and legs at that age. Don't be clumsy, you know. So, anyway, well, we don't have anything specific today. There's a lot of kind of loose ends. Bronson, who knows where this is all going to go, and sometimes these are our best podcasts. But, anyway, we initiated the Mealy's Matter movement, so to speak. And with the help of everybody in the hunting world, and we appreciate all the support as we kind of talked about the challenges that mule deer are facing, whether it be droughts combined with harsh winters, harsh winters up north, droughts down here.

Now, you know, just the changing of weather patterns makes a huge difference, as well as management within the state. And then maybe even some states being apathetic to change when they need to change. And, you know, trying to put that off as long as they can, just for obvious reasons. Lots of reasons. They want lots of participation. They also want to generate revenue. And there's budgets to balance and other things as well. So, you know, there's a lot of people that are some people that just absolutely don't care about an age class and structure and proper management and 14 other variables. And so, anyway, trying to keep us all happy, and that's not easy. We did bring up some of those challenges and talked about some of it. And then we just thought, well, the least we could do is try to not kill the babies. You know what I'm talking about? Well, yeah. And I mean, some of the states.

We talked about this, you and I, a little bit. Yeah. And, you know, this last week, I think it was Friday, we're getting ready for this May magazine, which we do cover Wyoming antelope and deer. The main reason why we put that off and don't cover it earlier in January is for the very reason of what happened this year is since you don't have to apply for those until the end of May, we put those off to gauge winter effects on deer and or antelope around Wyoming before we go to print. And by the time we go to print, we normally have the permit recommendations. So, it makes sense to put it off until like an April mag. Yeah. Well, obviously, thankful you did because you could apply for those back in January. Yeah. Yeah. Luckily, you can amend. It's easy to amend your application. But we're seeing monumental.

So, Friday, they came out with an additional set of permit recommendations that went even deeper in most places, especially for antelope. Some deer eliminated tons of doe fawn tags all over the state for antelope and eliminated or cut severely even more buck or any antelope quotas throughout the state, which just, and I've gotten, I've spent hours and hours as we've done in other states, Jason and Idaho and Utah and other places, watching these YouTube presentations about, from biologists that are giving around the state. And, man, it sounds bleak up there. And these were done. Wow. These weren't done this week. These were done. Some of them, you're reading them, and they were the initial permit cuts. And now, a month later, things have worsened. They got more big crushing snows, and they've gone deeper.

However, I bet you'd see and even hear the, I don't know, desperation even more if they re-recorded those today. But, anyway, enough said. Wyoming, yeah, is making some changes there. They're cutting some season dates off the end of some of the western popular G&H units to end them at the end of September. Don't go into that first week of October. Also, go into three-point or better in those areas. And they specifically say this is 100% to prevent from harvesting yearling bucks. Because they're basically saying if a buck is strong or a fawn is strong enough to survive this winter, we want him around a while. Yeah. And they've already got 90%. So you and I teased a little bit, and we're saying in some states, and even, you know, even let's just say within Utah, you know, we've seen where they want to. They're increasing tags. Kill the babies. For one reason. Kill the fawns down south.

Save the fawns up north. You know, or because we're potentially going to save some fawns up north, let's issue tags and harvest them down south because they, you know, they're not up against winter kill ever. Just different from the perspective. They're making stuff three-point or better to save every two-point that makes it. And in other places, Utah, southern Utah, they're dramatically increasing tags in some units. With the sole rationale that we have a big fawn crop coming in this year, big fawn crop at two points. That's the only reason they can base it on. It's the only thing that's happened since deep cuts last year. Yeah. Yeah. Kill the babies. Yeah. I know. And it's a little awkward to say it. It kind of jerks a little bit. It triggers you a little bit, which it's supposed to. So I'm not a fan of, you know, harvesting the small ones. I'm okay with people having an experience.

Kids and all that are totally different. We've said that a million times. But, I mean, when you dramatically increase by what they've done in some units in southern Utah, just based on the fawn crop that's coming up this year. You are putting abnormal pressure on those young bucks. Yeah. Well, and let's put it. How many three-, four-year-old bucks do we even have on these units? Because of the drought. Right. We're not even out of the drought. They're so slow to cut tags during the drought, but so fast. One good moisture year, we're going to add them right back. Right. It's just my frustration. I don't want to get going on it. No, no. And there are a lot of frustrations. We've vented plenty. But we kind of wanted to do a little bit of a recap. Because this Muleys Matter movement has got so much traction, we've had a lot of donations. It's coming in daily. Significant by personal people.

Some are quasi-businesses, small businesses. Some are just individuals that don't want to be named, that are throwing in optics. And legit, we're not talking 10-year-old used optics. We're talking new-in-box optics. It's not going to be a rinky-dink thing. We're not giving away hats and t-shirts for this. I mean, maybe. Maybe. Along with significant prizes. That's right. And so, we're just so excited about it. We just appreciate all the support out there. Anyway, and it's not necessarily support for us as well as just that it's raising an awareness of let's not shoot the young. If you don't have to. Let's not shoot the moms. Let's just do our best. I mean, we've got to do something. We've got to do something in addition to what the states are doing to help our own cause. This is our own industry. We all own this.

Me, you, the members of Epic Outdoors, everyone listening, we all own this industry. And so, what can we do? There's things we can do. Yeah. May not make a difference with the states. May not. Maybe at times we have. But, this is something we can all do. Everybody can throw in a little. And it's been way fun to be a part of. Save some bucks. Pun intended.

Yeah. Literally. Jeez, we're going to save some bucks. You know, the one thing I wanted to talk about on a three-point or better, you know, is I worry a little bit if it's three points on one side and a forky on the other side. You get this, you know, shoot, pray, leave, and lay concept. Wow. Say that again. Shoot, pray, leave, and lay. Wow, that rolled off your tongue. I haven't heard that before. I haven't either. Wow. It was just. Divine. Well, no. But, I mean, you know. Shoot. Shoot, pray, leave, and lay. Okay. You just get that concept of people are hoping that it's got a three on one side. And then they're nervous. They walk up to it, they're nervous, and they go back to hunting and pretend they didn't find it. And that has happened. It's shown itself years ago. In other states. Yeah. In a lot of states. Other places.

That's been a, that's been the number one reason they don't stick for very long. Right. Right. Is the leave and lay. So, if they do that, I just think maybe three points on both sides. That way you have to actually consciously view it, look at it, count them, and know what you're, know your target. And more so than just hoping. Oh, he's got a decent frame. Yeah. Yeah. Decent. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know. He's got an eye guard. I mean, you know. I mean, if he's a forky with eye guards or, I don't know. That's a breeder, bud. Dude. Leave him be. 100%. Yeah. Especially if he made it through up north. That's right. And he's got eye guards. He's legit. I'm telling you. And it's going to be, it would be. If you see a yearling two point this year. Yeah. In western Wyoming. Take your hat off and say, do good things, my friend.

Because he's one of the, right now, you're talking 90 to 95% fawn loss on a lot of radio colored fawns. They're talking up 85% adult. Adult in places. Mortality. Yeah. These are significant. Oh. You know. Sometimes threshold crossing type figures. Yeah. Meaning. Meaning you're crossing a threshold now that may not recover just by simply backing off a little bit of tags. You can double your herd and you've got three or four or six or nine or whatever. Right. I mean, so to speak. And you can't double, you know, 4.5 and get nothing. I get that. But I mean, I'm just saying, when you double low numbers, you get nothing. And it takes so many times to double to get to anywhere. And we're not going to quit hunting. And we've shown that. We've shown that. I mean, we closed units how many years ago. Actually, Bronson, why don't we talk about that a little bit?

How long has it been since the units closed? You did probably did case studies in college on those. We did. Well, some of them are in Utah, so I'm more familiar with them. The Buck Cliffs, the Henrys, the San Juan, Poncegon. Did we close the Buck Cliffs? It seems like we did. I know we did San Juan. Henrys and Poncegon. Absolutely. For sure. Those are the ones in southern Utah. San Juan, I know. They opened it up. It was a giant. So keep going. Yeah. So just interesting. You don't see it anymore. I just wonder why in the past, why was that decision? That's a dramatic change from normal. This was in the 80s. Well, we had a lot more deer than we have today collectively. But it had slipped from whatever normal was to the people at the time in the 80s that they felt, I'm going to close this down. So what happens, and I know what happens. I know the answer to these things.

But I mean, what happens when they close them down? And it was like a five-year stretch. You know what I mean? Yeah. Most of them were not more than five to seven years. That's right. Without digging it up now. I mean, for some reason, there's an intangible. They didn't even hunt does prior. And does are what obviously have the babies. Yeah. But just no hunting pressure actually saved does, too. There's an incidental of impacts. Whatever. I don't know what it is. Whether it's the leave and lays or just whatever. I don't know what it is. Pressure in general. I don't know how to do it. Just they were left alone. And they did good things. And they did better. Left alone. Even does that weren't hunted prior did better. Just seemed like they did. But I'm sure we'd have to go superimpose. And I mean, some of that could have been.

It was the perfect time that they closed down with, you know, 82 to 85 in Utah. And certain places was monumentally wet. Or like saying, going to a draw for Colorado was perfect timing. Because you didn't have the rough winters from 03 to 05 or 06. So you had this perfect. Now, if they would have had really rough winters in 01 or 03. And then we wouldn't have this example of Colorado. And look at, let's say, in southern Utah or Nevada, if we had closed units, hypothetically. And after, you know, 2020, 21 and 22 were just as bad. You know what I mean? It would not have had. So a lot of it is just you get lucky a little bit. A little bit like sheep transplants or other thing. That sometimes you're doomed right from the start because of whatever. But anyway, and we're not saying, hey, everything needs to be closed down. But I mean, there's instances on small scale.

When you have an 85% loss, how do you just back off pressure and come back two or three years later? How do you think? I mean, how? There's plenty of sheep herds in New Mexico that aren't hunted. They don't have what they consider to be a viable population, but they have a population. I mean, sometimes there's not viable population. Viability. Yeah. You know, there may be some of that in places. I know. There's sheep in Colorado that aren't hunted. Well, there's, we saw unit 130 in Wyoming for deer. It's always been a 15 tag type unit, which is kind of like debatable. Well, I have a, they call it a late season, but it only goes till October 31st. But why even have 15 tags? There's kind of a unique, let the region H deer migrate down to the open stage and hunt them. Well, they're cutting that to five tags. I'm thinking, why even have a hunt for five?

Probably because they already had people apply for it back from January, like we were talking about. When you got a skew, it's hard to get rid of it. You know, and that's, I think, I contend, there's, along those same lines, I contend, you know, there's times when the management hunts have gone out too long. They're welcome. We're not they're welcome. It's maybe, it's okay to pull those out. If we go to a three-pointer better in northern Utah, it would be okay to transition out of that sooner than later. As soon as we're back to where we need to be, let's pull out. Get two or three years of good farm production. You got your, yeah. It doesn't need to be forever, but maybe there's some. Things tend to hold on and remain. I think there needs to be some outside the box process. And I applaud, I guess, Wyoming for thinking about that because it's not common.

Most states, I don't really know of many other states that even employ that. And it's controversial. There's maybe some states will conflict when we say it doesn't help, whatever. There's a lot to have to line up to to really demonstrate something to work. You could do it in a bad year and in drought and it get masked by the drought that say we're not recruiting any more bucks by doing three-pointer better. Well, it was masked by the fact that it went into two dry years back-to-back, you know. So there's things like that. But I guess, man, just as some of these agencies and wildlife commissions look at these things that are, you know, hey, we're in our, I guess, upper 40s. Not you, Logan. But in our lifetime, I've not seen something this widespread in my lifetime as far as all of northern Utah, that much of Wyoming and even northern part of Colorado. I mean, this severe.

I haven't that much. I haven't either. No. And it goes back, you know. I haven't either. And so we need to, you know, cruel and unusual times require cruel and unusual remedies. We need to be. It was after some of the winters in like 92, 93 that Utah had to go to a draw for the general. That was what started it. And, you know, now we're to a draw. Now we're to unit by unit draw. Nobody likes to see opportunity go away. But at the same token, and they're like, yeah, if we take away opportunity, how do you get kids hooked on hunting? How do you get them out there and, you know, give them the opportunity if you cut tags? Well, if you don't have a good experience out there, if you don't have something for them to see and hunt and harvest, then what are you hooking them on? You can take them camping right now. What are you hooking them on if there's nothing there to hunt?

My kids are addicted, but I also work at other multi-state opportunities. And, yeah, you could say that that's not possible for some people. But if you had to just rely on the Utah general, I mean, and they draw every two to three years or two, every two, every other. And then the product during these drought years has been, yeah, you can find bucks. I mean, you can. But it's tough for people, some of them, to find bucks. Or if you hunt casually, you know, a casual family or hunter, I contend that just having a tag isn't good enough. Right. You have to have a product on the mountain. And when times are bad, we all suffer, including the kids. Yeah. And when times are good, we hopefully all prosper. Yeah. I think it's commendable. There's private enterprises and CWMUs that are considering, from what I've heard, that are considering not hunting, not commercially hunting their place.

And I think that's commendable. And I think it's similar to cattle or sheep or anything else. When you're dealing with, you know, livestock or animals or wildlife or whatever, things change. The price of hay changes. Maybe there's a drought and they have to pull off the range earlier than normal. And that creates hardship and it's unfortunate. And then on the good years, they do well. And hopefully some of these guys do really well on the good years. And I think it's commendable they're willing to take care of the resource and look past their checkbook at times. But also, they've also got a reputation to hold up. Yeah. To realize, and I do not want to take 100. I could sell it. I'm going to lose my reputation. I'm going to lose 10 years of business by taking people these next two years that I shouldn't be taking.

Or 10 years of a great reputation all of a sudden turns sour and you got, you know, internet trolls crushing you over a bad hunt that you were sold. That you went ahead with. Yeah. And so there's some of that. And if that happens, the public shouldn't be able to hunt those places either if we're, in effect, shutting down an entire operation. Which a lot of, the reason we're bringing that up is a lot of northern Utah is heavily private land. It's where 90% of the CW mews in Utah are up there. You know, maybe 80%, whatever the number is. But it's vastly private land. Yeah. So. So it's kind of interesting. There's just a lot of moving parts. And we've talked so much biology, I'm actually tired of it. Yeah. I think, I do want to talk a little, just a little bit more. You brought up a good point about buck to doe ratios in Wyoming, even on the general areas.

And I've often wondered, personally, why, how can a place like Wyoming, and even parts of Idaho at times, have, you know, offer basically over-the-counter opportunities for the residents with, you know, unlimited number, you know, and maintain good hunts. People will spend 10, 12, 14 points to go to Region G that's over-the-counter for residents. Like, why is that? How can they do that and command that kind of point level, which obviously people are being provided a decent experience, or they wouldn't be willing to go and we wouldn't be talking about it in publication. And you and I surmised a few things. Because maybe there's, you know, the population base of people in Wyoming is such that they can get away with a little bit of that. Maybe it's just the nature of the units and extreme and physical. A little bit more forested and physical mountainous.

So, you don't just crush everything that walks. There's escapement, whether it be because of terrain or timber, things like that. And it's also a very unique season to hunt on a general season. There's no other general season that hunts September 15th for two weeks. It used to be three weeks. This year, it's going to be two. And you can contend that September 15th makes deer pretty vulnerable. They're in a summer. Yeah. They kind of are just right at there coming out of velvet. But they're also right at that phase that they can get tough. And it feels like with the added pressure, what we normally hear and see is. They've learned over the years to get smart and go to the timber. You dive to the timber. Yep. And so, yeah, they manage those units for $30 per hunter does, which, I mean, by other standards in other states, that's like a limited entry type unit in Utah.

That's better than a lot of states. A lot of states, you know, for a general season area. So that's a testament to the productivity of those areas. But at the same time. And they're above that. They're above that. Now, pre-winter. Yeah, going into the winter, they were like $34, I read. $34 per hunter does, which, that's high. It is high. I mean, that's, you know, we. That's some of our better units here in Utah. Yeah. I mean, we have some that are even higher. Some are in the 40s. But Poncegon or things like that. But impressive. Yeah. Honestly. And if they're within their threshold, you know, we're critical. Hey, y'all ought to be changing things up. And we're a bit critical. But in, you know, being critical, set aside, if they're within their management objectives, maybe that's why. We also talked about that. Slow to change.

In Utah the other day, though, and we're talking about buck-to-do ratios. But at what point does your buck-to-do ratio do you get? Versus carrying capacity. Yeah, versus how many deer do you actually have with that buck-to-do ratio? And after a big winter in Wyoming, those are the types of questions they're going to have to really look, all right, okay, we're okay buck-to-do ratio-wise in a year or two, but our deer numbers are 20% of the objective. And Zach mentioned that. We have this moving target all the time, and we're changing our carrying capacity objectives. And we feel like we're chasing our tail and never. And then at some point, people forget what carrying capacity a unit could really have because you haven't seen it for 20 years. You know, I mean, only the elderly in our hunting community remember what a carrying capacity really looks like.

Well, it's just like we joke early winter on about some people don't know what a regular normal winter's like. Yeah, so is this winter really harsh? And it turned out to be in most places, especially, say, very northern Colorado and all that. But initially, even in southern Utah, you know, we got people, you know, freaking out. We're going to lose a lot. How are they going to do it? They're like, this is, I mean, this is the first above normal, severely above normal we've seen in 10 plus years. So normal gets warped into a new sense of normal. And yeah, that notion of carrying capacity or that notion of how many deer can we really sustain on a unit?

A lot of times it feels like that just gets lowered and lowered and lowered because, you know, we're so far below it, they just lower the objective. Or not discussed at all. Yeah. Maybe it's just not discussed at all. Well, that's the point of emphasis more than anything. Yeah. Growing more deer. And so, yeah, it's just kind of interesting. But anyway, so there's a lot going on. I guess our point of it is just to say, hey, these tag numbers have been adjusted again up there in Wyoming. Utah's having meetings today as we speak. We've been listening in, talking about committing things to death and whatnot. And maybe some adjustments in our system a little bit coming. Who knows? Didn't even know that was really up for debate. But it sounds like it is today a little bit. So they're having some good discussions. And again, we appreciate the people that spend some time. We know a lot of them.

And they spend a lot of time working on this stuff. And there's like, we all know what they say about opinions. And we have ours and everybody has theirs and whatnot. And so it is what it is. We're just, everybody's trying to look out for what's best for the wildlife from their perspective. So anyway, some positive, Bronson, some positive. New Mexico's going to run their draw maybe this week. In a week or so. Yeah. And how excited. They have a tendency of sometimes being a little early than their advertised date, which I think is the 26th of April. But sometimes they're a week or so early. Well, they've got to sift out the felons and sift out a few of these other, you know, make sure that the draw is clean and the applicants are clean and everything's ready to go. So I think there's quite a process in getting everything ready. But it's coming together from my understanding.

And I just, I'm going to put you on the spot. Oh, geez. Just came to me. I need to remember what I applied for. You going to ask me what I applied for? No. Okay, good. I want to hear a 380-inch bull story. I don't know that you've spewed that story. It was a draw tag. And let's just call it 2018 or 2017. I think it was 2019. If you keep talking for a minute, I'll find out. It was actually a pretty good year, at least here in Utah. Nevada was a really good year. I imagine New Mexico had that same result. Arizona, usually when Nevada, Utah have good years, we have good years in Arizona, New Mexico as well. 2019. 2019. Awesome. So, you know, they have two different draws. They have a regular draw where, you know, we give 6% of the tags to people that are willing to do anything. They could go guided. They go self-guided. They do whatever they want. They could eat the tag. Whatever.

And then you've got 10% to go into a guide pool for non-residents, residents, whoever applies. And that guide pool helps. At times, that's the only pool that will be issued a tag where a non-resident can get a tag. If you're dealing with a 10-tag unit or a 10-tag hunt, there's only going to be one non-resident tag and it's going to go to the guide pool. That particular year, there was one-on-one. Yeah, there was. It was before they, I guess, reinforced that. They used to round. And it was, in that case, it was 8-2-2. Well, then they ended up tightening up their rounding procedures or whatever. So, now it's like 9-0-1 now in that same instance. But, yeah, I've entered the guide draw on occasion for certain, like for sheep and things like that. Mainly because you get an extra tag or two. And I know that doesn't seem like monumental. But, I mean, I...

When you're looking at one tag, two is double. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So, anyway, this was one of those years. It was also one of the years, like we've talked about often with New Mexico, that in a good wet year, which 2019, if you remember, it rained and rained and rained all spring here. It was just wet, wet, wet. It was an average winter up until about March. And then it just turned on from then to May. It was, which is not as usual for us. And northern Arizona, New Mexico got it too. So, it was one of those years feeling like, all right, this is when you just go out there and draw something weird. Well, there was a new unit that opened up that had an early rifle with 10-tags. For a rifle. It had been only hunting like archery. Yeah. So, I put it down as my first choice. I mean, just like, well, a 10-tag unit, you better put your first choice or, you know, why put it?

You know, and then I, I don't even remember what I put on the others. Might have been, that one might have been the same year 16B Wilderness had the early hunt too. Yeah. Really early. An October one. Yeah, it might have been that same year. So, I'm going to put those two back to back, which is not really an aggressive draw strategy. No, it's actually terrible. But going for the one tag in a unit or two. But it was also an area that was overlooked because they're not easy. That one is a desert, arid, low densities. Yeah. But giant potential. And I don't know what I did second, third, honestly. It could have been 16B Wilderness, but it may not have been. But anyway, I was more aggressive on the third, whatever that was. Well, I, I drew, I drew my first choice. And I remember I about crapped. You remember that? Yeah. I mean, because we had to look four times.

I mean, I don't remember the bathroom incident. But remember, I read the hunt code to you and we're like, that's what it is. But how was that? How are you the only person? You're the one statistic. You're the one in whatever. What I love is you can't draw 50% odds, but you'll draw the one in a hunter. I've drawn weird. The goat in Alaska, over one in a hunter. I've drawn some really wild ones. Antelope in Arizona and you'd a 10. Oh, yeah. You shouldn't draw that. No. You shouldn't. You got an 87, 87-inch truck chaser. You know, but you do. Did you chase him? Or did he chase you? No. It depends on who you ask. It was all me and him. But I was chasing him. I think you've even spewed that story once. Oh, yeah. But it seems like it was a thunderstorm of epic proportions. It was actually after we had a friend of mine, Eric Hunt, in Arizona. He knows you to attend well.

So he'd offer to come up on the hunt and just glass. I found this buck and a couple of others. This is the one we started. So we're talking antelope now instead of elk in New Mexico. I think it's just hilarious. But you're out in antelope country and you're the tallest thing and you've got a gun over your shoulder. I remember walking back to the truck. It's pouring rain and lightning all around us. And I'm like, we're going to die. One of us is going to get hit by lightning. There's lightning hitting all over. It is pouring. And I didn't dare put my gun on my shoulder because why? The highest thing above your head is going to be a lightning rod. It's going to be your bullet. So I carried my gun down in my head and I'm just trudging. You know, we don't got heavy packs. We've got an antelope in there. But it was only probably, I don't know, half a mile. You smashed it.

Oh, and took care of it. On a 45 mile an hour run. Dude, I wish I was there. Well, that, yeah. That's what I meant by I chased him. I air-mailed him. I put my sticks in the bush, got my gun up. And I don't know if they weren't actually on the ground, you know, the actual sticks. But I shot and my gun fell down into the bush. And I'm like, he just took off running. I'm like, what? It's like 300 or 350. Like, it's a chip. Dead goat. So I just checked one in. And luckily, he was running straight away from me. Straight. We all know how fast. And there's a major kill zone that's, what, four inches in diameter? Yeah. Total. Yeah. And I think I've told the story. But I had no time to range and dial. And by the time you range and dial, get on your gun, he's moved 100 yards. So it doesn't matter. So I just, you know, he's a big antelope.

And I'm like, so I just put it right on his butt, raved it above his head, of his head, and just shot and crumpled him out. Yeah. Pretty impressive. And went up there. And that bullet hit him right at the top of the tailbone, went in and out in about six inches, and hit him right in the back of the head. Wow. Yeah. I love that. And I just remember Eric getting on the radio. He's like, bro, that was something I said. Well, I'm glad I had a witness. Because it was the wildest shot I've ever made in my life. But hey, I air milled one broadside at three to 350. So it's not all. But anyway, way past a truck chaser. Now let's move back onto this elk story. Yeah. So anyway, so we're out in this. Long shot draw odds. Yeah. Long shot draw odds. I drew it. So I went down there. And my guide, Jordan, from Premium Hunts, it was an awesome trip. He had already scouted down there. He's from New Mexico.

So we had been looking around. But it's the type of unit, too, that these elk roam a lot, especially at night. There's scattered trees. It's very flat. They can roam miles and miles at night. Five or eight miles. Yeah. To and from water like cattle. Yeah. They're just really like that. And so anyway, after, you know, first day or so, we saw several bulls. I saw one that was, you know, probably a 350-ish bull. But, you know, maybe right at 340 or 50. I forget exactly now. But he's a really solid bull, but it's like, nah, not a no-brainer. And then that evening, we ended up seeing the bull that I ended up killing. But he was on a little piece of private. And that unit's got a healthy mix of public and private with all throughout it. So you just got to be, you know, willing to deal with that. And on a five-day hunt, though, you know, you've hunted these.

You've hunted several of those types of units that a bull gets tied up on private. And you hunt them for a day or two, and all of a sudden, half your hunt's over. Yeah. Five days. So your hunt is a five-day season. They all are. All the firearm hunts, to my knowledge. What I love is that they're a five-day season. What I hate is that they're a five-day season. At least you have closure for good grief. Yeah, they can't go on too long. But anyway, the second day, he moved his cows down off in his rut, and we got into position. And he had a big group of cows. And it took us a while to sort him out. He got on this thick-seated ridge, and they all started bedding down. He couldn't see the bull. And so we actually split up. You know, he had one angle on the ridge. I had another. I snuck in. I was 500 or something yards from him.

And finally, the bull got up out of his bed and started, you know, rutting cows, you know, just like they do in the middle, late morning. And I hammered him. I just kept hammering. I just remember I kept shooting and shooting at that bull because, you know, I had no spotter right with me. He was, you know, I don't even remember if he could see the elk, Jordan. But, you know, when an elk's standing on his feet, I'm not one of those proud guys that likes to pride himself on how many one-shot kills they have on an elk. I don't care. I want the elk dead. And I rocked him. He stood there. I rocked him again. He spun. I hit him again. Anyway, it was – there's a lot of shooting. I think four or five times. Well, yeah, and you don't have to say everything. Like, this isn't a tell-all. I don't care. I think it was more than five. I think it was five.

No more than five. No more than five. No more. Wasn't it – But he just soaked him up. Wasn't it a 300 Rome? I can't remember. That was a 7mm. It was a Red Rock Precision 7mm. Okay. Regular. Did you already say that? No. Okay. But anyways, that gun, I love it. It was, you know, 500, 550 or something like that. And he was also in cedar trees. So, meaning, if you shoot him, he runs out of your gap, and he's not hit perfectly, you got problems in cedar trees. You know? So, as long as I could see him, and he just kept standing there stiff-legged, he was getting another bullet. I didn't care if I thought he was dead on his feet, but it was awesome. We walked up to straight six, like 381. Super long beams, big fronts. Anyway, it was awesome. Gorgeous bull. Just a perfect six.

When you think about a desert bull, I don't think about a long, tiny, beautiful, giant, big back end, just beautiful bull. You know what I mean? You just think, in desert, you're just thinking it's going to be a stubby, heavy, monster-wide, weird tree. There had been a ton of feed down there that year. A ton of feed. There was a lot of feed down there, and they grew well. And it was, I don't know, just the right year to beat the odds of one in whatever it was. Terrible. Yeah. I think it was one in 64 that year. Yeah. Oh, I can't remember. Which is bad. It was tough. But anyway, there's some pretty awesome experiences down there. I've had some of my, I've killed, you know, some of my best bulls have come from New Mexico. And same premise, what you're talking about. Just odd, great years, great moisture years in odd units. It can happen in any of these units. I mean.

It's going to happen this year. Yeah. This year. That's what I guess. Arizona, New Mexico, it's going to happen. That's what I guess I kind of like about it. It doesn't matter if it's a, you know, even a 37 or a 23 or a, you know, 38, you know, your unit, even some of these just crazy outliers that aren't really outliers on great moisture years. You know? Right. Can produce as good or better than anywhere else. I mean, the age is there. Old, old freaking dinosaurs. Let's just call Sean real quick. Who? My kid, Sean. And he went on that youth hunt, killed his first archery buck to be a late archery. And he also killed his first elk on a 15-used muzzle, didn't he? He did. First elk. Yeah. Was that? They were screaming there. I wonder if he even remembers. He was probably 14 or 15, probably 13. How old was he? I don't know. Young. I don't know. 11 or 12. Rocking a muzzleloader.

It was a giant heavy muzzleloader in the claw. God. You know what I mean? Bulls were rutting like crazy, weren't they? Oh, yeah. 15. It was awesome. So that youth hunts early, and it kind of gives them the jump. Mobility impaired in youth in New Mexico, where they have those seasons, not all units have those seasons, where they have those seasons, they get preferential treatment, with the exception like the Vivadel. That's kind of a late, like an October 28 youth or something. There's some of those exceptions. But anyway, I just want to hear, I have no idea what Sean's going to say. I have no idea. He's never really been on the podcast. Well, he called you a couple weeks ago, and you answered on the podcast. I know. And he was just like, duh. But anyway, let's just see what he says and see what his memory, A, if he answers, and then what his memory was like.

Hello. What are you doing? I'm working. What are you doing? Well, we're working. Right, Bronson? You betcha. Doing a podcast right now. Have you got a quick minute? Yeah. Yeah, I got a minute. I just want to know. Adam and I were talking, and we're kind of talking. New Mexico's draw results are about to come up, and you've had a couple of experiences. A, your first archery deer spot and stalk, and then also your first elk with a muzzler. And Sean, you were so young, I don't even know. I actually don't know if you remember. The elk was a long time ago. Elk was a long time ago. That's, man, nine years ago now. I think I was 11. 11 or 12? Because I was going to work on Utah or anything. Yeah, so we went down and did the New Mexico, and just, I guess, just want to, other than we didn't kill the 370 bull, that was one of those muzzleloaders. Do you remember, Sean, what happened on that bull?

Oh, yeah. We had a misfire with the muzzleloader. Well, it actually, I think, yeah, I remember it. The firing pin dented the primer, but didn't really hit the primer. And the bolt was slightly up. The bolt was just slightly up. Okay. Do you remember, Sean? Yep, I remember that, yep. And the bull was right there, walking out of range. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, it was kind of crazy, but you ended up killing a bull. Yeah, we ended up with one on the last day, I think, the last morning. Yeah. Well, let's talk about your archery deer experience a little bit. And 2B, so we had a, Sean ended up drawing 2B on the archery, the late archery. January. Youth only. First to the 15th or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what did you think of that hunt, Sean?

Well, I did it twice. Right. I think I hunted it two years in a row. Right. Yep, you did. And the first year was awesome. I mean, I missed a 200-inch plus. I forgot. How old were you there? Like 13 or 14 or 15, somewhere? Yeah, I think I was, I wasn't driving. Well, I had a permit, because I remember I was kind of driving then. Oh, I remember you were trying to get me out of the driver's seat, and it was like 2 in the morning. Dad, I want to drive. I want to drive. And I'm like, no way. So I did, dude, I let him drive. We're going across the nav. And remember, Sean? And I could not fall asleep. I mean, I was jerky. Oh, scared crapless. This kid's going to run you off the road on an unfamiliar highway, too, in another state. Yeah, I'm trying to keep him off caffeine, and then he's thinking he's big and can drive, and I'm white.

I probably put a full day in here and then jumped in the truck, as we do, all the time. And anyway, you remember, Sean? I remember. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I remember. It was back when you had the Tacoma. Okay. Well, so anyway, go ahead. I want you to just tell the story, I guess. If I could shut up and let you talk, I just, it brings back a lot of memories for a dad, so. Yeah, I mean, we had, first time was a lot of fun. There was just deer everywhere. Everywhere you went, we found a lot up on the forest and stuff. Ended up missing the big deer, and then. How far? How far? I got a lot. I don't know. I think 50 or something. Ish. Or less. Yeah. And it was a big deer. It was big. No joke. No joke. Giant frame and cheaters out both sides. It was. It was no joke. It was. It was no joke.

And I don't know that you missed him on purpose. I don't know that it was your fault. What do you mean? We found the arrow, and we found where it deflected. Hit a limb or something. Yeah. It did. It was one of those things. It's just kind of a. The buck was standing there, and we jumped out. He was kind of getting away, and I think it was 50 yards. He ranged him. And I shot, and I knew when I shot that it missed. I want. It deflected off a branch. It went flying up in the air.

But it was just one of those unlucky. But you shot at your first 200-incher, though. That's what you did. Yeah. Yeah. Shot at my first 200. Yeah. And then was it that trip, or was it the next? Did you kill a buck that week, that day, next day? Yeah. It was the next day or the next. We had a, I think we had four or five days down there and ended up killing one on the very last morning. Just a little three-by-four. But it was good for first archery buck. Oh, yeah. It was unbelievable. Spot and stock. Sean got out, and he's like, Dad, I'm going to shoot him. Remember? Yeah, I do. Yep. Yep. Keep going with it. Yep. Just another one of those things. It's just a lot of thick country, so you're driving a lot of roads. And drove up on him, and he kind of ran over the ridge. And we got out and just kind of snuck our way to the edge of the ridge and poked over, and he was still standing there.

So just kind of lucked out. Well, and I'm trying to leave him. So I'm watching from a distance. I'm just trying to leave him go. Let him and the deer be. You hunt the deer. Make that happen, you know? Because if you've got two dudes out there stalking a deer, I mean, it just overpowers him a little. I mean, if it's just Sean, he's what? What are you, Sean? Like 5'3 at the time or whatever. You're really young. Yeah, something close to that. Well, you're really young. Like you're 11 years old or whatever. No, no. You're way past 11. Yeah, so you're probably a little taller than that. But anyway, you're out there stalking this deer, and I'm back there just watching it. And, like, he draws back. And I'm like, are you crapping me? Like, this is going to happen right now. Let one fly. And, Sean, take over. Yeah, I shot him. I hit him far back in the first one.

And so we ended up having a track job. It was the last night we were going to be there, and so we were just pretty much tracking him until we could get out. Anyway, I ended up 500 or 600 yards later walking upon him in his bed and had put another one in him. Awesome. It was awesome. Yeah, it was black. It was black. It was a lot of fun. Yeah. The second year we went down there, not so much. It was just the winter and everything that was going on that year. The deer were all spread out. Yeah. I remember it being really tough. Yeah. Tougher. Tougher. Oh, yeah. For sure. Still good compared to what we experience here, you know. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, we could have shot smaller bucks that year. Stuff like that. It seemed like you turned trophy hunter overnight to me. Huh.

Yeah. You're pretty picky. Well, why don't you shoot a few four points? Yeah. You know. Want to up the game a little bit. Want something better? Yeah. That's right. All right. Yeah, it was. Sean, tell me, how many bucks did we see on that trip in your estimation and deer in general? Oh, hundreds and hundreds of deer.

A handful of, you know, a handful of bucks. I don't remember how many. Quite a few four points. A lot of four points. I was stalking bucks almost every day, multiple times a day sometimes. Yeah. It was. That's what you need. Kid with a bow. Pretty fun stuff. Yeah. Sean, did you, do you have any special story you want to talk about? Any other deer hunting story or any other story? Oh, I don't know. I'll have to think of an embarrassing one of you. No. Oh, yeah. Hey, Sean, you and I will talk after and we'll get that ready for the next podcast. I'll call you. Sean doesn't know any embarrassing stories. We need the juicy ones. Sean. We can think of one.

No, no, no. Like maybe a time your dad slept in and you woke up in the tent and it was at 9.30. Sean. Opening day sometime. Sean. Has that ever happened? I don't remember a time of that. Or, I don't know. You got all the way out there opening day and he left his gun back at the house or something. I don't know of anything. I'm just wondering. It's time to jog your memory. Never happened. Oh, man. Huh? It's hard to think. It's hard to think. Yeah, exactly. I know there's been times. How about the time you left your tag? We were in New Mexico archery deer hunting and you left your tag at the motel.

Nope. That doesn't strike me. These are supposed to be stories about you, Jason, not Sean. We're asking. These are about being frustrated as a dad. We're not talking about me anymore. Well, you think, Sean, and you got my number. You know how to get a hold of me? Yep. And we'll get you back on anytime you'd like. Sean, what's your favorite species to hunt? Mule deer, of course. I like it. I like it. All right. Sounds good. Well, appreciate you coming on for a quick sec. Yep. I appreciate you calling me. We'll see you later. Bye. I don't know. The youth opportunities down there are pretty significant. That one's not a special season. They hunt against the adults, too, but it's a separate draw. Draw pool amongst kids only and better odds than the adult draw pool and stuff like that. So, yeah, it's kind of exciting.

One of the first, I guess, bigger states that comes out with multi-species draw results. New Mexico always is. So, it's kind of we're all excited about that. There's a few others like, you know, Montana deer and elks, but they're going to be coming out here this week, possibly by the end of the week or early next. We'll see. But it's not the whole state. You know, sheep, moot, scope, bison, all that. It doesn't come out until later. So, New Mexico is one of those, the first that has a big release. And you look for green, not red. Yeah. That's a good point. They color code them and it's kind of exciting. But, you know, what I like, too, is just they don't have an age, you know, they don't have a minimum age requirement. You just need to have hunter ed. And so, you can take kids really young. We've all done. You've done your two boys. I took Ty down there.

He shot his first deer before he could hunt anywhere else, too. So, it's just, it's good for that. Colton killed his first deer at nine years old down there. I mean, just, man, pretty cool stuff. But, anyway, yeah, Bronson, that stuff's coming out. We're way excited, especially on top of a wet year. We're just, we get so excited for our members that draw. Give me green. Give me green. This is the year, man. I want to. It is. You want to hunt? I've been putting for antelope. I did. And I don't do that every year. I did, too. I told you. I applied for D. I know where you applied. I know where you did. I mean, it's a 14-day drive. Do you need a passport to go down there? I might need it. Do you have to dip into Mexico and come back in? I don't know how you even get to that spot. I'm just teasing everybody. They make two-lane highways that get there, for sure. So, I'll be there.

But, anyway, I don't know. Yeah, it's pretty fun. We've got a lot going on, Adam. I mean, we're working on Idaho. We're working on Idaho deer elk and antelope as well. And, you know, there's a few changes up there, for sure. I mean, they've made some adjustments. They've had, you know, they've had those August and December hunts up there. And they've done away with some of that because they were, in large part, were brought on for depredating elk and to deal with that issue. And it actually, I mean, it did the job. In large part, it did the job. But it also, you know, it also, I don't want to say hurt quality. But it did. It actually curbed quality a bit for elk, like in Unit 45. 52 and 45 units like that, yeah. Yeah, and 46. I mean, it did its job out there in the desert. And, you know, people could hunt, like in 45, you could hunt the whole unit and whatnot.

And so when you did that, you know, you ended up taking bulls off of private, too, in, you know, the center of the unit and other places. And so you end up with, you know, rifle hunting bulls August 1 or August 10 or whatever within the season that, you know, when they're somewhat vulnerable. And it takes a toll. December they were vulnerable. December they were vulnerable for different reasons because of, you know, herd up big, vast open country to find them. But, yeah, going to be some changes there. I haven't gone through them all like you have yet as I'm working on Wyoming and some other stuff. But, yeah, that will be done here in the next, you know, 10 days or so. EMAG will probably be live within 10 days, I'd imagine. Yeah. A week to 10 days, something like that. But then, yeah, quite a few deadlines coming up here, too, in the next, we'll call it three weeks.

Dude, we've got Idaho sheep, goat, moose. We're due April 30th. We've got Kansas is due April 28th. We've got Montana sheep, goat, moose, bison due May 1st. Wyoming, obviously, we've talked about that. Sheep, goat, moose, bison April 17th. Yeah, that's coming up real quick. Utah the 27th of April. So, April is jam-packed. There's a lot to do. So, make sure you stay on top of the intended draw schedule because, man, there's a whole lot coming up. Then May's pretty busy, too. Yeah, it's an intense month. It's kind of exciting. We're also, of course, 60, 70-degree days. How about that? I'm so excited just to be out and about. We're dying to get out in the hills and shed hunt locally here and, you know, not have to drive a state away or whatever to get out in the hills. But, anyway, trying to avoid even. . .

It's like these guys saying here in the office, they're scared to just take a walk in the hills because people will think you're shed hunting. Yeah. Just, you know, how do I do that? How do I get my exercise? Yeah. I can't get my steps in around the office, you know. I've got to do something. But if I get hiking the mountain in the morning, I'm going to get turned in. I've got to fight that. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to throw a little shout-out out there to Under Armour. You know, they've got a lot of stuff on the horizon. They generally come out with their new models of clothing and whatnot and gear generally in July and August. And that's kind of the schedule for this year as well. You're going to see a lot of, you know, the new products and whatnot basically coming out in force in August.

And so you can get on our website for 40% off cards, coupons, codes, whatever you want to call it, up to $2,000 per one. So get on our website. You can download that and grab it and then, you know, kind of wait, you know, build up a shopping cart, kind of a list of items you'd like. Wait and make the best use of that card when you're willing to spend a few bucks. And so anyway, you can go check out what they've got at UA.com. And they've obviously, you know, all sporting activities, you know, they're making clothing and shoes and boots and clothes for, as well as hunting. They've got a hunting section on there and got the Ridge Reaper line of, you know, camo, which is awesome. It continues on and barren and forest and whatnot as well as other patterns as well. So anyway, just great, great people, happy to be associated.

They've been a huge proponent of ours and supporter and we appreciate them. Yep. Also want to give a shout out to Blaine St. James and his crew at St. James Sporting Properties based in Windsor, Colorado. But they licensed in Colorado, Idaho, Kansas, Montana, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah, and Wyoming. They're built around the idea that more often than not, the recreational value of a property exceeds the agricultural value. And they want to bridge that gap between sporting property buyers and recreational ranch owners. And Blaine and his crew have over two decades of real estate experience. Founded a brokerage not to be everything to everyone, but to be specialized in marketing and sell the finest sporting properties in the West. So if you're looking to buy or you've got family looking to sell, reach out to Blaine.

You can email them at info at sjsportingproperties.com or 877-354-7247 or they advertise in our magazine as well. But he's a hunter, knows how to value property, knows how to find what you're looking for too. We've had a lot of members buy and sell properties through Blaine. And he's a hunter. He's got an eye for stuff like that, whether it be you give them your goals, your needs, what you want. If you're looking to place to, you know, just a secondary ranch or you're looking to place to retire and move out west. He can help you. Super smart guy. Yeah, he's a good friend of ours. And like Adam said, he just got an eye for it. He's got a knack for it. He's just awesome at what he does. We also want to throw a shout out to Red Rock Precision. Super good people. Kurt Pilcher and his boy is just awesome. They support us here at Epic Outdoors. We support them. Make incredible rifles.

Very innovative. They've got some new stuff coming out. Pretty awesome. You know, don't want to. Probably ought to get them on a podcast when they're ready to talk about it because they are some new things they're working on. They are. And I don't want to really, you know, say anything, you know, too early. But they are working on some things. Very innovative. And we're going to be, you know, a major affiliate with that and partner with them. So really excited for that. Appreciate them. Red Rock Precision. Go on. You can go find them on the web. Get a hold of them. They'll do anything custom that you want. And, you know, calibers, whatever. And they just feel great in your hands. That Red Rock rifle of mine, it's in a .30 Nozzler. Regardless of the caliber, just an incredible feel. Bronson killed a lot with their rifles. Absolutely. Love them. I've got a couple. Brother's got a couple.

Used them a bunch. So one last shout out I want to give to Stealth Cam. We're dealers of their products. They make great products. They're always innovative, too. Looking to try to upgrade models, tweak. A lot of technological changes that have come into the trail camera world over the last 10 or 15 years. Monumental changes. Monumental changes. Whether it be from reactor or fusion cellular cameras. All down to the SD cameras for whatever you need. Whether it be high video quality is what you need. Or just coverage cameras. Whatever. They make them. Check them out at stealthcam.com. Or if you're interested in buying some cameras. It's getting very close to that time. You just start finding out your draw tags. Maybe you need to run some cameras. Or update cameras that are getting older. Used, weathered, all that. Give us a call here at Epic Outdoors. We've got a bunch in stock.

We're stocked up with lock boxes and cameras both. So when you find out what you've got, give us a call. Or if you want to look at all the products they have, again, check them out at stealthcam.com. Pretty awesome. One last shout out. A little shout out to the guys there at Phone Scope. Super good guys. If you didn't video it, it didn't happen. And, of course, I can't show you guys that I'm hunting big deer. Unless you video it. That's right. You can tell stories, but we want to see to believe. And then there's some Phone Scope footage that Wyatt and the boys won't show us. Why do you think that is, Bronson? There is? Oh, I know there is. I'm going to ask them when we get in there next. Absolutely there is. They're videoing some big animals. They're on some big animals. Anyway, appreciate those guys. They've got some great products. Just allows you. I mean, they're the originals.

The OGs. You know, for producing a way to video animals. And as technology gets better on the phones, of course, the video footage is incredible. I'm videoing in 4K now. And I do it with ease with their products. So, P-H-O-N-E-S-K-O-P-E. You can find them out there in the big, wide world. Logan, there at Old Cheston, and family are right there from where you're from. Beaver County, baby. How about it? Best place on earth. Really? Oh, yeah. Nice. Why don't you tell us why it's so awesome? Well. Some of the most incredible hunters and families live there, right? Yeah. No. Well, me especially. My family's from there? Yeah. Oh, yeah. They are. That's true. What do you mean? You act like you forgot that or didn't know it? Well, when you said best hunters in the nation come out of there, I was just thinking about me and my family. I think they are. You were there, too. That's true. They are.

But your dad has me on speed dial, boss, for a few recommendations here and there. Just to help us find somebody to get unstogged. How about this, Logan? I just want to know what was going through your mind.

75 miles an hour down the highway? When your dad or you, yeah, okay, yeah, there's part of that. We can go over that story. But you guys text me their lat long. And that's all you got? That's all I got. You don't know what they've got? Well, I'll read it to you. Might be a 400. You don't know what that means. And it says we were last here. And you got coordinates and not a point or a pin on a map or anything? I'm just like, this is my location. 34.93 dot, dot, dot. Random number. Minus 111 dot, dot, dot, dot. And I'm thinking, yeah, and it's a 678 number. Yeah. It doesn't say, come get us. It doesn't say, it just says, if you find. This is my location. Come look for my bones here and lay me to rest. Tell me what happened and why you guys were. Why did I get this random text of a lat long? So we were driving around this old two-tracker road, a road that we shouldn't have been on,

in a truck we shouldn't have been in. We were in a big old Duramax driving down those two-tracker rough roads. Bronson and I now own Duramaxes. Why are you hating on Duramaxes? No, I love them. They're great trucks. But on those two-tracker roads, they are rough and heavy. Oh, yeah. And we weren't planning on it, but it got to the point where we were on it too long to turn around. You're committed. Yeah. And so we had to just ride it through the rest of the way to camp. And we get going and we get up on some of these hills.

Is that about the right camera right there? Yeah, sure. I wasn't even recording on that one. Oh, keep going. Hit record. He controls everything. Anyway, yeah. So we get going on top of these hills and there's a lot of snow that hadn't melded off yet. We didn't know that. What were you doing there anyway? This was in Arizona. Let's clarify that right now. It was. It was in Arizona. We were down in Arizona looking for sheds. Okay. All right. Keep going. Yeah. Spending money in their state, right? Buying fuel. Yes. Maybe even side-by-side tires. Hey, shout out to a little gas station right off that highway. They make a good burger for a gas station. There you go. Supporting the local economies. Okay. Keep going. So we get up on top of these hills, start hitting some snow drifts. Bronson, man. They're deep and they're those iced over ones that have been there since who knows how long.

And it would have taken us like four hours or more to get back the way we came just because it was so rough going. I want to interject, Bronson. I've hunted this unit. And the road they took, I never told them to take. And it literally, it was nearly half the night to get to a paved road in a half ton. It was the most brutal road I've ever been on. It would have been tough on a side-by-side. Oh, brutal. And you hit the pumpkin about every other, what, every 20 yards or something. You're just dragging. And these guys are down. It's tore up. Yeah. And a three-quarter ton diesel. Yeah. And I made it out. I was committed. I'm like, I'm going to spend the night out here trying to get back to the pavement in dry conditions. Yeah. These guys happened to take that road. I don't know why. Why? Because, you know, we were just. Shortest distance between two points. Yeah.

And you would naturally say, this looks like a major road on Onyx or a map or anything else. You never take that road. Keep going. Yeah. Well, you know, we hit the glass and spot there with some elk, but we hadn't found the horn. So we said, we'll just go deeper into the belly of beast. Is why we stayed on that road. And so, yeah, we start hitting them snow drifts and we were like, it's too late to turn around. It's probably dang near eight o'clock by this point. And so my dad says, we're just going to get through these snow drifts and we'll just get out the other side. So he just gooses it. And we're blowing through snow drifts. They're deep and it's, you know, slowing the truck down pretty good as we hit them. And we hit one, two, three, four in a row, probably 10 yards apart. And we hit that fifth one and it just high centers us. The snow? Yeah.

The snow is so icy and drifted that it packed up under the truck and we were high centered. Those plastic air dams of these nice, pretty trucks are, I mean, do you guys have one left? Like, is there one under that bumper that those black plastic air dams? Yeah. That's exactly it. That was half the problem. Did you leave plastic in the hills? No. Well, I'm just wondering. I'm just thinking about this. We didn't leave any plastic from those things underneath, but our grill is a different story. Handyman jack. Yeah. Handyman jack. You know it. And so we're high centered. We're jacking the truck up, getting rocks underneath it, trying to just get enough to just roll that thing through. Using the handyman on the tow hook. Uh-huh. Yeah. And that's when you get the, this is when you get the coordinates. This is why you get the coordinates.

When did you guys think we better send somebody, and hey, and I feel honored. You guys thought I would drive from Cedar City, Utah. What is that? Seven hours? Seven? I mean, one way. Seven? One way. Six or seven hours probably? Yeah. On the worst road in No Man, I would probably get those coordinates, look at it on a map, and send my boy. Hey, here's a gas card. Do good things. And a winch. Maybe two winches. Maybe two winches. We jacked the truck up three times, and it kicked the rocks and sticks out, and we couldn't get out. So my dad had a Zolio, one of those satellite phone packages, and he's like. I don't know how that works. How does that work? What is that? Is that the. So the Zolio, like. It's not the Elon Musk thing. I don't know what it is. That's like Wi-Fi, isn't it? I'm going to learn something.

It's like Bluetooth to your phone, and then it gives you this app, and you can text people through satellite coverage on your app. You guys use a different one? It's like InReach. Well, we use InReach. We use InReach. Same type thing, probably. But you don't have to buy a device for it. It works through your phone? Or do you have to buy a device? No, this one you have the little square, and you like. It's carabined onto your. All right. Okay. It's an InReach type. I think it's the same general idea. Competitor. It's a relay. Boom, boom. Text. So that was the text you got. We were like. I was like. I'll bet Jason knows somebody that lives near here. Okay. That's what you were thinking. That'll come and throw us a toe. I was like Bronson. But that only. That was being summoned at some point. And I don't know who this is. I don't even know who it is. It was supposed to say.

Here's my lat long. Where are you? You're like. Who am I supposed to meet? Where? Well, it doesn't come through on a mapping app that I have. Because I don't recognize. It's called Zulu. Or whatever. It was supposed to say. Hey, we're stuck. Do you know anybody that could come do us a good deed? Did you think you sent that message? Well, my dad typed that in and sent it. And then hit the coordinate send. And so I don't know. I don't know what had happened. I'm going to screenshot what I sent you. Yep. And so our idea was. Two hours later. Yeah. You put those in the onyx, those coordinates, and send somebody out to save us. Oh. Yeah. Finally, the fourth or fifth time we jacked out that truck, we finally got big enough boulders underneath it. It rolled off. We got turned around. We blew back through all those snow drifts. And you're like, that's the way we're going now. Yep.

Got back to camp at like 3 a.m. Oh. One of those nights. It was a good night. This is one of those times when you just wonder, like, how many of those trips can a Chevy handle? Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, they're pretty significant trips. Jason, you ought to know more better than anybody. Well. Dude, I went through motor mounts. It's got 49,000 on it. Why? How does a truck go through motor mounts? You know better than anybody. I'm just going to say it again. Well, then you said you were shocked. Them rough roads. Rough. And then I thought, wait, what's happening to your truck right now? New shocks. I got a shock. Somehow. I don't know how it went off. I don't know how. I don't know how I blew a shock. And we've had trouble with those shocks. Reservoir shock. I don't know. Yeah. They're not cheap. So, anyway. So, handyman jack will jack up a diesel engine. It will. Like a full.

They're a heavy, heavy truck. Usually, guys take two to four ton, you know, floor jacks for a diesel. But that floor jack wouldn't have helped you necessarily. You'd have had to holler it out with a shovel and yada yada. Yeah. And that handyman jack is at least 15, 20 years. He's had it since I don't even know. I've got my original. High school. Yeah. They're heirlooms. Yeah. I never get rid of mine. You know how many times that has saved me? Yeah. I haven't used them in a long time. And that's a good thing. Well. That's a good thing. You would. Oh, yeah. I would. I mean. But I'm surprised. Growing up in high school, my dad had a 75 Chevy Blazer. And they had beefy, rear beefy, solid metal bumpers. You would make them in a shop class. But they're like 4,000 pounds a piece. And just what you described. Jack it up. Throw anything. Debris. Limbs. Anything underneath there.

You're begging to get a little bite. Yeah. So, yeah. That's a point of desperation. Sandyman jack is a love-hate situation. I'm just surprised that they haven't sent more people to the grave than they have. I mean, dude. If that jack gets away from you and smacks you. Well, you're usually not going to kill you. They'll probably lose teeth. A lot of lost teeth from handyman. It'll break your jaw. Won't it? Oh, yeah. Split lip for sure. Have you done it? No. I watched my dad give himself a split lip on one of those handyman jacks. Yeah, pretty good. Yeah. But you have to have one. Oh, I'll certainly have. There's two brands that me and my dad owe our lives to from that trip. But whatever tie downs have the little bungee cord right by the hook to hold the side-by-side on the trailer. I want to say somebody in Beaver invented that or something, but I don't know. I don't know.

They do have a bunge, like a big, thick rubber stretch. Uh-huh. And they go with the bounce really good and they don't loosen up. And they'll... But that one actually drug your side-by-side. Drugged the side-by-side. Uh-huh. And didn't break the rubber. Uh-uh. Yeah. Drugged the tires. Burned the tires on. Yeah. Those tires were flat. They should be a sponsor of this podcast now. Yeah. That and handyman jack. Without the handyman jack. High left. You want a high left brand. You know what you need? You know what you need? Your side-by-side. Drive your side-by-side. Why weren't you guys driving your side-by-side? Well, it was cold. And it was open cash. It doesn't have Sirius XM radio. Yeah. Right? They don't have Sirius XM and they don't have... Some of them don't have... We want to have... There's something to be said about Sirius Satellite Radio.

There's also something to be said for a cab side-by-side, Bronson. We talked about this. I'm a believer. I didn't even take mine off last year. I just unzipped it. How do you get the dust out of it? We hate dust. Well, what happens is... They're dusty. Well, mine has airflow through the top and it pressurizes the cab and I don't get dusty. So you have a little... You have airflow over the top of your head. And at times, like when you're in the winter and it's not dusty, you stuff a towel or jackets. Extra jackets up there. That'll pressure on. It's just cool. I'm not sure on the Pioneer, Bronson. You'll have to tell me. Does that have that? Because I know the Talon might... You get air through it. And they're all made by Honda. You get air through it. You do. And you need it in the dusty times. You need a little bit to keep it going back. But in the winter, yeah.

You can shove it through it. But I didn't even do it last year. And then I have... In Bronson, we have the Epic Polaris machine and it doesn't have... It has an open cab and it's incredible for 100 degree days, 80 degree trail cam days. Like, so it's kind of nice that you don't have to tear your cab off. Got a roof. Got a little bit of shade. But no... Nothing else. Yeah. And you don't want a cab sometimes. But anyway, you had that trip out there in eastern Utah. And it made you a believer. Like, you take one trip like that, it's worth the price of the cab. Yeah. Yeah. And I just got it on late last summer. I knew my early fall, meaning August and September. Remember, I was busy. And so I'm like, I'm going to get this on. Because by the time I get back from all that, it's the end of September. And it's not hot anymore. I'm going to need it. Because it's going to be raining.

It's going to be whatever. So I had it put on in July before I even left up north last year. And I used it hard. I used it hard last year. So I used it the year before, actually, too. But I can take it on and off. The back portion. Yeah. I don't want it all on there. I don't use it in the spring. But it's nice in those monsoons. They can hit you with gallons and gallons. Yeah, vengeance. And it's nice to have a cab machine, too. I usually don't in the summer. But I have the kind that I can keep the front cab with the doors on if I want. And the back part isn't. So you have all your car going back there. It's just kind of easy to get in and out of. But I don't know. The best machine I've ever owned. Have you ever heard me say that? Never. Never heard you say that. I'd like to know what you're going to say next. It was a standard cab. Now it's funny. We call it side by side.

It's a standard cab. So one bench seat. Polaris Ranger cabbed out. And I had a diamond plate toolbox in the back. You can put a full elk, all quarters and everything in it. And it would pressurize itself like that. And it was just unbelievable. And then really easily, removable doors pop up a window a little bit, get the airflow. For the summer. Oh. And it had a lift. It was just right. It wasn't too long. Like sometimes those double. Wheel bases that get too long. It's high center. And when you put a lift on them, they quirk and tweak. And sometimes they're not right. And then sometimes a lift machine's right, right? That one was right. Why'd you get rid of it? Don't know. Well, I mean. Still don't know. No, I don't really. I want it back. Yeah. And then, but the people I sold it to, which is actually. We had a cheap with it. Close relatives. We had a cheap with it. Yeah.

In Nevada together. We did. What do you remember? Tell me. I just remember that bike. Which. You didn't have it long. I think it was 243. Was it? Yeah. Oh, yeah. We had it about that era. Yeah. Yeah, we cranked that. And we also cranked this down on the springs. You remember? We hit a lot of scouting on 262. Yeah, we scouted a bunch of units that year. It's taking a statewide hunter. I know this is winding down. I get it. But I don't want to quit. I'm so freaking excited about hunting Nevada. The desert. Oh, yeah. We call it a desert. Even people, friends, whoever gets a tag. Yeah. Me? Yeah. Okay, good. Hey, he said it. Dude, tell me. You'll be there with any tag. Tell me how you feel about it. Oh. Well, part of the reason is it's been a rough few years. And we've been anxious to get back because 2019 was a pretty solid year over there. And it hasn't been since.

We could tell that story for a minute. But anyway, keep going. We've taken some licks on the chin. You talk about eating dust. Was it 2020 or 21? I don't know. Oh, my gosh. 20. The stag year. Killed an awesome stag with a membership drive winner. Yeah. But, man, we ate dust. Oh. That deep. That deep. That deep. Yeah. On some of those roads. Shout out to any vehicle that makes it. Same thing with the strip. The strip will eat a truck like that. But I think it's those years, those good years, keep you going back every year thereafter. And really what we should do and what we've learned. And I don't know why it's taken us. There's been, you know, in our lifetime, Bronson, you know, we haven't been a part of official studies per se. You have in your five years of heavy biology and, you know, dealt with a lot on the, you know, being the president of Euphonos back then is what it was called.

But you just, you know, you just, we've proven a few things. And the one thing we've proven is, and there was always a question, do drought years make big antlers for deer? Mule deer specifically in desert or high desert, you know, whatever, 7,000 foot, 7 to 9, 5 to 9, 4 to 9,000 foot type elevations. And people were wondering, you know, in drought years, well, the feed that does grow is so rich, you know, and could it actually make for big deer versus just, you know, wet years where, you know, they're prolific. Everything's green everywhere. And we've proven, dude, we know for a fact there's big deer grows in wet years in these type of areas. You can't make it happen in those off years. And we're talking not slightly off. They were massively off. And you can't make it happen.

I mean, the amount of big deer, you guys are sick of hearing about it because we've talked about it for a few years, but it was rough. You'd have over, well, and on good years, you'd have over 20 bucks, over 200 inches on trail camera in two or three units that we could run hard. And then on drought years, you might have one. One or zero. Yeah. Yeah. And it's significant. Buck would go for two. Running the same spots. Yeah. Yeah. Not like you moved and tried new areas. And why is it the same places produce big deer year in and year out? Like, you know, I'll run, I'll think, I'm going to find the most obscure little water, a break in a line from a farmer trough, whatever, right? You're going to find something obscure that nobody knows about. And it's the common areas that produce giants. The proven, the proven. It's the feed. It's got to be just the habits.

Mule deer are very habitual in terms of dispersion, in terms of where they're raised, where they water, where they do well. Well, they don't, they aren't nomads very often. I mean, you know what I mean? Right. They're not like elk in that regard. Right. Elk are nomadic. They'll do crazy stuff year after year, year after year. Sometimes they go back to the same thing. Other times you never see of a bull again. Yeah. And that's happened on specific units and bulls that we were a part of. Yeah. That's happened. But these deer, so anyway. Just excited. They can't be contained almost. I mean, and so when then, you can buy landowner tags in Nevada, and there's affordable tags in parts of the state. They're hard to find anymore. What's affordable, Bronson? Like, go ahead and find that for me anymore. Are trucks affordable? Is food affordable? Sheephunts aren't. Are eggs affordable?

I mean, you know, concrete affordable. Steel affordable. You know, whatever the case. Products in general are affordable. So, we've spent a lot of time in draw tags, wasted points, bought landowner tags, and off years. Yeah. And it's really hard to stop yourself. Goodness. You want to be there because when it's good, it's good. But, yeah, I think I'm in double digits for deer points. Sure. Yeah. Well, it's been 2012 since I drew a tag. So, yeah, I'd have 10 or 11. Yeah. Ready to blame on the table. And so, yeah. So, anyway. Cash it in. We've been in some weird off units in special years and hunted multiple big bucks. Multiple big bucks in kind of units that are not known to be super special, you know. Kind of like that same principle with New Mexico. Sometimes you've got to do something weird in a good year, what's looking to be a good year. Do a different weird. Risk yourself.

So, stick yourself out there a little bit like in New Mexico. You can't just stick to the Gila. I mean, the odds are terrible. You know, I've never drawn a Gila tag. I don't know if you've drawn maybe one or two. But the fact that you get multiple choices there and in Nevada, use them. Well, part of it is. Put yourself out there a little bit. Make something happen. Hopefully, in a really good moisture year, which we haven't had for a long time. Now, at the same time, yielded numbers are way lower in these units we're talking about. Way lower than they were five years ago before this bad drought. So, you are still going to have to grind, in my opinion. It's not going to be like the same deer that were there five years ago. Now, we're there to just grow. Because a lot of those deer are gone. Well, and waters change. Like, springs change.

The areas that we hit really hard five, ten years ago don't even exist anymore. The water doesn't even exist. I haven't been down to them yet. Right. I don't want to get caught acting like I'm shut down. But this is where maybe, hopefully, some of that old-time knowledge, like there were springs we found in weird units, or even popular units, that have disappeared. And the new generation of hunters might not have been dry when the new generation was really even looking. Yeah. You know, so maybe that's where being old. Yeah. The old black book's going to get pulled out this year. Springs and lat longs. And waypoints on old GPSs. Yeah, that I've got to find a charger for to turn it on. To even turn it on. Right. The old rhinos. Back when Onyx was Montana Mapping Company or Montana Hunting Company or whatever it was.

And rhinos we thought was the best thing that could have ever been invented. And they were. At the time. You could transfer waypoints via the radio. Hey, Jason, you got my location. Yeah. And then we put cards in, you know, like mini SDs or micros or whatever, and even big ones. Yeah. You know? And so, anyway, there's waypoints in there. Landowners. Landownership. I have a physical one that I keep in a special place. I tell my kids, this is an heirloom. Like, take this. Well, I've got one of those with a lot of waters in the deserts of Utah. Desert sheep country. Well, you're talking about a lot of pots. Like, they're not maps. Like, not what, just stuff that will save your life when you need it to or that will allow you to hunt certain areas. Seems like you and I got dry in one of those pots. What do you mean? What do you mean? Seems like. That are now in a, well, go ahead. Oh, yeah.

We, that sucked. Yeah, we. How long ago was that? And that memory is edged forever. What year? That year, same year I had my Dutton Elk tag. Was that 20? 2008? Eight or nine. Yeah.

Because they started roughly the same weekend. You drew a desert sheep tag and I drew my elk. Yeah. And back then, it's kind of like now. Utah, you found out like the end of May. And by the time you find out, what, June is like the hottest month. The gnats are out and it usually doesn't rain. But we were, how old were we there? That was 15 years ago. So what were we, 30s? 34. Mid-30s. Right. In other words, we were bring it on. Bring on anything in the world. Bring it on. So we drove out there. We marched in. And it was in a year, not like this year we're having right now. It was a year that hadn't rained for two, three months. Yeah. And all of the standards, places that I thought, hey, we're going to go in there camp for three, four days. It used to be big, big, let's call them swimming pools. Swimming pools. Literally. Like hundreds or thousands of gallons of water were dry.

Every one we went to. It was dry. And we committed. We went in all in. And we had to now, like, put in a Leaf River trail camera that had Ds and Cs, batteries, and CF cards. You know what those are, Logan? Do you know what a CF card is? Compact flash? I do not know what a CF card is. They're about an inch and a half, two inches by two inches square. Three or four times the size of an SD card. Yeah. Do you know what an SD card is? I do. I do. I work with those a lot. Lots. But that was only 15 years ago. Yeah. Can you believe that? No. And we weighed the cameras. With the batteries, they were four pounds. Yeah, I remember. And then. The camera and batteries in them. And the lens on them turned yellow from the sun over the course of, like, three months. We packed at least two of those in there. What were we thinking? What were we thinking?

Stupidest. We were mid-30s. Back then, if they had made a cellular, we'd have been all in. Yeah. You probably could have got them. But, I mean, it was. Then the realization is we cannot stay here anymore. And it's a long ways out. And do you just remember hiking? We'd hike. And it's brutal. When I say brutal a lot, it's 100, 105. It wasn't 115. But for Utah, that's hot. And when you've gone all day hiking in there, you know, 10 plus miles. Oh, dude. Remember? Okay. The deep part's 25 miles. Yeah. We were 17 to 20 miles to where we went. That's right. Each way. And now you've got to go back out probably six to eight until you hit for sure water again. We went the full way in, put the camera in, and wanted to. And realized we can't stay. There's no water in here. We can't camp here tonight. We've got to go all the way back out to where we know there's water. Which is the river. Yeah. Okay.

But between there and the river, we were out. Okay. We were dry. No, we were out. We weren't tearing anymore. Right? Not sweating anymore. Not sweating anymore. I just remember it was a, we'd walk, felt like two to 300 yards and have to sit down and just rest. You remember that? We did that. We didn't even talk to each other. No. We didn't even talk. Because we knew. We were, but honestly, back then we were too dumb to even write our last will and testament. Like it was. We didn't have anything to send a lat long out to our friends. There was nothing like that. Not that they'd respond anyway if they were Jason apparently. There was nothing. I would respond. I am never going to leave you high and dry. I think you know that. But. This is pre. I would have let you worked on that truck another day probably. Make sure you really need me. We didn't have a truck.

It's seven hours each way and we're putting out a magazine. I'd have been like, Bronson, what do you think? All right. Keep going. Yeah. It was just a, I remember it was a, it was a grind. It was nothing. You know, we were in great physical shape. We were young. But we'd been all day 20 something plus miles hiking and out of water. And you, you knew where you had to get. And it was, it was just all you could do. We'd go two, 300 yards, try to find some little shade overhang or a cedar tree or something. It was just, we were weak. So in this kind of country, there's natural funnels where when it rains, there's a natural funnel where the water goes. And then it drops into a pot. Drops into a pot. Drops into a pot. They, every single one all day long was dry that I had marked. They weren't life. We were on to new untested, uncharted territory.

And we were going down one of these little, let's call it a little draw or a little sandstone draw. And what happened? We found one. Yeah. Tiny. It was, it was like, I just remember it was like a godsend because this was like, this little thing should not have water. Of all the things we checked all day long. Open to the sun. Yeah. To face the south. But it was just, the sandstone must not have been as porous or something. Because sandstone sucks up water. It does. Just by nature. Right. And I don't know. It must have had a layer of something in there. Different mineral. And it wasn't big. No. But we got it. It was stagnant. But nobody cared. We did not care how to drink it straight up. Yeah. And it was, we sucked and sucked and sucked through the water pumps and beat those water pumps up.

And we used them in the river later and, and ruined them because that silty, a fine silty water will ruin them fast. But I just remember getting to that river and just sitting there. I don't remember how long we just sat in that river. Hours. And just drank. And I don't know. And we were just happy. And we were happy. We weren't going any further. No. But it was a, it was a humbling experience. But anyway, so let's call it a 17 in, another 12 out. I don't know. Because it's another five from there out. At least. Yeah. Or seven. I can't even fathom going out and trying that right now. Hey. We were, I am a realist. I am, I don't, I just know that that would have, that would crush us right now. I think one of us would be scratching our initials in the sandstone. Right. One of us. Well, and we were too young. I never really realized. We were too young to realize. You're kind of untrue.

Is there a heat, can you get a heat stroke? And really didn't even, those don't cross your mind. We weren't going to, in my mind, we weren't going to die. But nowadays, and I would hate to think. What would a Gen Z? Well. Logan. Is your generation tough? I just want to, I know you're tough. I believe you are tough. I'm glad we got that out of the way because I don't know. There's no juice boxes out there. No juice boxes, bud. There's several in my pack at all times. So don't even worry. Well, it was just one of those. I've had two of those experiences. That's one of them. So in roughly a half century of living, we're talking about this one. And I had one other when I was doing my graduate hiking for Desert Sheep. Very similar. That I got probably weaker, more delirious. I don't think it was like hallucinating. But it was just like total empty. But two times in my life.

And we've lived in the desert. So it was a significant. Well, you can talk about it a little bit and then I've got one that I'll talk about. Tell one more. It was significant. I just, it was very similar. So I don't want to sound too redundant. But I was, for two summers, I did my graduate research project on Desert Bighorn Sheep and watering sources in southern Utah on the Kaperowits Plateau. And, you know, you get out of college in the, what, April, late April, early May. So your season to do your master's project is from, you know, June 1 to like mid-August when you've got to go back to the coursework. Which is what? The hottest time of the year. The hottest. There's no hotter. August is, August 1 to 10. But the Nats are out. It's just a brutal time. I don't remember when it was. But I just remember. And this was also in the early 2000s, like 2000 to 2002. Okay.

What would we, what, what, I hiked with paper maps in my pack. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I know. All right. 2002 was an extreme drought. And so. By the way. Oh, yeah. And so I would look at routes. And I'd have a truck and a four-wheeler. And I'd try to, you know, because you can't get picked up. You're out there all alone. You drive to a certain point. Maybe leave a four-wheeler here. So you could do a loop of, let's call it, 10 to 15 miles in a day as you're mapping and GPS and spots. And I got, I either missed a canyon or the topo I was reading was more of a one to a hundred thousand instead of a seven and a half minute, one to 24. And I didn't have the detail to know which canyon do I need to get out of this canyon on and hike up and back on top. And I way, way overshot it, way overshot my canyon. And by the time I topped out, I realized I am way, I'm a long ways away and I have no water.

And I have a lot, a lot farther to hike back than I thought. And I just remember, I remember the intervals that felt like 50 to 100 yards when I got, when I topped out. And I'm walking on a road. I'm walking on a flat road. But I remember I could go like a hundred yards and I have to just stop. And I, I never felt like I'm going to die. I was never to that point. I just like, I, I've got to just make sure I, I don't, you know, tip over or something like that. But I just remember never been part, more parts of my life. And I left my pack. So I, I didn't, I didn't need to pack anything. I mean, nothing in there was going to save my life. I had no water. So I just left it because I know I could come back and get it. But it was a scary moment. Finally hit the truck. And I remember just starting to get guzzle water and I've never had this happen.

I would guzzle a quarter of water and I remember threw it all up. Water. No. I just think the body was just so empty. Gotta go slow. Yeah. And I, I didn't do that. I remember just throwing it all up. Luckily I had tons. I could keep doing it, but it was a scary moment. Mine. I was in, and I think you've, we've been around each other enough. I've, we've heard each other's stories a little bit, but man, mine was my dad drew a desert sheep in San Juan. Um, he drew the desert sheep and we had fat cat, we did fat cat motorcycles. They were, they were Honda fat, tired motorcycles. We got to define that. Like because they were in 86 and 87 and, and you know, cause Beaver County, all the farmers use those. So every, about half of the fat cats that Honda built have made the rounds through Beaver County and became farm animals, farm machines and hunting machines. And then sprinkling pipe.

Cause they don't sink in the mud as much. And there's probably a thousand fat cat frames in farm fields down in Beaver County at some point. So they're just, they were one of those bikes. We didn't have side by sides and the four wheelers had monoshocks like what you were raised on. I still remember the Henry's monoshock story of the old rancher. Right. Yeah. And manual shift or a foot shift. And so, you know, or a push button shift, but not the Honda matic transmission and things that we have nowadays, you know, belt driven stuff. So we use the Honda fat cat to even navigate roads. It's not that we were using them cross country. Although back then a lot of people did shed hunt. Times have changed. Well, they're just easier to ride than a skinny. Look down upon. Do you remember that Logan? To do what? Shed hunt off of. Off of those four wheelers? Fat cat motorcycles. I never did that.

Yes. Okay. So this is beyond the Gen Z crowd. Bronson, years ago, years prior. Well, they're, and they were, they're more forgiving to ride. They're more like a TW now, but they were even fatter. They were like three wheeler tires. They weren't even clutched. They were just, you let off like a four wheeler. You let off the gas and shift. Right. Right. Well, and they were more forgiving to ride in the desert and sand and all that. You didn't, you didn't put them down. So that's, they were, they were easy to ride. They were. My grandpa had one. He bought a brand new one. Yeah. When I was a kid. Yeah. Yeah. Which I still had it. I remember we bought brand new ones from Monticello, the Honda shop in Monticello. Ondaland. Yeah. That's from my grandpa guy. Yeah. So anyway, we just used them on an old, old uranium road or whatever. It got us up to elevation basically. Had to hike our guts out.

We hiked up on top. And this was summer. There's September openers, as you know. We hike up on top. And I was, I was prided myself on being a good glasser. And sure enough, you know, I was going to glass a sheep. And I did. I glassed a ram as far as I could see. As far as I could see. Up on top of the mess. And you know, you're, you know, whatever. And the mornings are cooler. And the evenings are cooler. And you know, it's cool. And then it's starting to get hot. And we're going to go after the sheep and see what he is. And we don't, we don't have that much water. But you don't think a lot about it. Because I can see it. I can see it. That's still four miles aerial. Each way. And not to mention how many cuts you got to go around. Yeah. It's not a straight line. No, not at all. It's canyons. Tight. Lots of them. Lots and lots of them. And so we get going. And we go to the very end.

And then by the time you get there, you're committed. You're two-thirds of the way there. Realizing you got water problems. And then you've got to finish it. Because we saw a ram. And what if it's the ram? And here we are. And now we've gone through all this pain and suffering. And we're going to finish the job. And it's a dink. We walk over the edge. And yeah, it's a couple of dink rams. And for sure they're the ram. For sure. Like, I'm like, yeah. Right where we left. But I saw it. Yeah. And we've got to make it back. And we're out of water. With the exception, we each, my dad saved a little bit for a rainy hour. The trip hour. Whatever it was. The death mark. And we got, yeah. We got to where we were a third or half the way back. And it's 100 and something degrees, as you know, in September down there. And he turns to me and he says, okay. This is it. I'm going to give you this water.

And I'm stopped. I'm done. I'm sitting under this tree. And you take the water and you make it back. And then we had a gallon at the bike. And then you. Replenish and get back to me. And then you come back and you get me and bring me water. And that happened. Yeah. And I don't know how I made it back to that bike. I had. I still had. I mean, it was tiny. He had. Let's call it a pint that I got. Yeah. And I stopped. And I had to stop every 100 to 200 yards. And I took a nap. Yeah. Every 100 to 200 yards. And I don't know how long I was out. I remember. I don't know what that does to you. But that feeling. I feel like that's what you have to do. I feel like all you can do. Yeah. So you get a little bit of shade and whatever, you know, and stopped and started and stopped and started all the way back to the bike. Did the same thing. And then I took a nap at the bike.

And then I'm like, I got to make it back. And so I took what was left and I went back. And I met up with my dad, gave him the water, and we made it back to the bikes. And then we went down. We had camp trailers with generators. And it was a day and a half. We laid on the floor under the air conditioner. And we ate and drank and were merry.

And we ate and we drank and we were merry. The last thing in your mind was a desert sheep. We didn't care about nothing. We didn't care about nothing. Just get your body swollen back up. Didn't matter. We drank fine liquids, whatever it was. We drank Pepsi's and water and ate all that we could eat. And it was a joyous experience. And it was one of those that you just looked back on. And, you know, just kind of one of those experiences that you carried to the grave. And that define you a little bit, you know. And I think it's some of those experiences that maybe some of the younger generation don't experience as much. Bronson, do you ever get lost anymore? I think it's more, but I also, you're more cautious. Because one or two of those, you can always get caught out in a storm. Snow is when it's not supposed to snow.

You know, whatever. Kill something up dark and now you're going to be way late getting back. But I'm way more prepared now than I ever was back then. Way more for some experiences like that. I'm way more prepared. And I think they make you tough. When you're in the Yukon and you and I have both done them. You've done some of those mountain hunts, you know, more than I have. Like you, you know, and even Alaska. You know, I've, we've done it. I've done some of those sheep hunts. And I'm telling you, there is no, I'm not going to make it. There wasn't. We weren't. We've done hard. You've done hard things. And so it's just how am I going to, how am I going to make it? That's right. You know what I mean? Yep. No, it is. It seasons you for sure. It seasons you. It teaches you. Helps you be more prepared. Helps you be more cautious is not the right word, but just more analytical now.

When I'm, when I've got a place that I need to go scout or a place I need to go look for something that's, I'm going to be exposed and you're going to a little bit of the unknown. Because water in Southern Utah, we don't have, we don't have a lot of seeps and springs. It's natural water in sandstone potholes. Tanahas. In that location. I call them Tanahas. Earthen, earthen potholes. Catchments. You know, in the, in that. And that's what you survive on. And I've also gotten better about when I know not to go. Like these last couple summers, like not the summers to come off of a winter you had nothing and go. Like you're asking for trouble going on real, real deep stuff. This spring right now, bring it on. Well, that's why I was a little bit surprised that Paul being as wise as he is, he, that he kept forging. Cause, cause honestly, anymore now.

And it's what happens is you get to that point of no return and you just assume I got it. If I make it through a few more snowdrifts, I'm going to make it, but we've all done it. And I'm not a kid anymore and I'm just over it. I'm over getting stuck. You know what I mean? If I can help it. That's what I mean. Bronson, I went, I took two trips out to Nevada, right? Flat and level. What did I tell you? Totally got stuck. Yeah. Okay. I came back. And you've been here every day. Need to replace motor mounts in my truck. And I'm not, and I'm, and I'm like, and I told, what did I tell you? I'm now happy to be in the office. I'm just fine. Yeah. You dodged a bullet. I don't know. You don't have to walk, walk miles and get picked up at night and send an SOS. Yeah. Send some light longs. Yeah. Yeah. The kids went out, got stuck and you know, luckily they had a shovel and then some people

came and helped push them out and this and that. And anyway, anymore, we're just careful of making sure we take what we need and trying to. Got a lot more awesome tools now than we had as kids too. It was a handyman jack and a shovel, no in-reach, no sap phones, no nothing. Yeah. You know, I just think about the places we went as kids and nothing bad happened. We were driving uphill in an old Bronco in three foot of snow and broke the back drive line U-joint and had to take bailing wire and hold up the drive line. It's not dragging. And we were in four-wheel drive. Front wheel. Front wheel drive. But it was front wheel drive. And you know, there is no, who are you going to call? You know? So you're getting out. So anyway, I don't know where, what, we got to end this. Do we just end it and call it a day and go eat, drink and be merry for lunch? Yeah.

On that note, let's go eat, drink and be merry. I'm all for it. Okay. Let's do it. We'd like to thank all of our sponsors here at Epic Outdoors. For top of the line hunting, clothing and apparel in every environment, visit UnderArmor.com. We'd like to thank Under Armour for being our title sponsor and making this podcast happen. Visit our website, EpicOutdoors.com, for discount codes to Under Armour hunting apparel. Handcrafted, quality, precision rifles from start to finish. Red Rock Precision is one of our sponsors and many of our staff uses Red Rock rifles. Visit RedRockPrecision.com to find out more. If you're in the market for a hunting property, our sponsor at St. James Sporting Properties specialize in premier hunting properties throughout the West. Check out available hunting properties at StJamesSportingProperties.com. Good looking, comfortable camo describes Kuyu.

The new bush pants from Kuyu keep your legs comfortable while walking through the thorns and bristles. Visit Kuyu.com for sizing and prices. Kenetrek makes great boots for any situation. Most sheep hunters in the high, rocky altitudes use these boots to keep their ankles in check on the rough terrain. Visit Kenetrek.com to learn more. We at Epic Outdoors are a fierce firearms dealer and have many popular models in stock and ready to ship. Call us if you would like help deciding which options are right for you. Fierce long-range rifles are a great rifle and many of our employees here use them. Visit FierceArms.com to learn more. Triple S Polaris specializes in custom setup hunting side-by-sides. They deliver right to your door nationwide. Visit SSSPolaris.com to learn more. For affordable, long-range rifles and shooting schools, visit ThompsonLongRange.com.

Thank you to Phonescope, the best camera optic adapter out there. Phonescope makes high-quality phone cases and optics adapters. Visit Phonescope.com to learn more. Stealth Cam has high-quality, durable trail cameras that we all love to use. Check them out at www.stealthcam.com or call us to order today. Here at Epic Optics, we are a verified dealer for Swarovski, Zeiss, Leica, Vortex, Stealth Cam, and more. Call us today to visit about the available optics we have and what would be right for you. Or visit EpicOptics.com. For only $150 a year, you get nine issues of the Epic Outdoors magazine and unlimited access to our hunt consultants,

as well as access to our verified research website. To see all the other member benefits, visit EpicOutdoors.com. If you hunt multiple states, our services are essential. The Epic Outdoors license application service is for you if you ever miss deadlines or would like help developing your long, medium, and short-term license application goals. Give us a call today at 435-263-0777 to learn more.