EP 28: Coyote Hunting Success with John Bair

Coyotes are some of the smartest critters known to man. Most likely they're going to be where they're covered, where they feel comfortable, you know, sneaking in. You blink your eyes, and they're going to see you. Anything to do with Western big game. Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter and Adam Bronson here from Epic Outdoors with another epic podcast. We've got an awesome guest. It's actually our first guest that we've ever had on twice. And so, anyway, we've got the legendary John Bear on the line. Before we get started, I did want to, you know, let everybody know that, of course, Under Armour sponsors these podcasts. We're super appreciative of them and all their support over the years. We've dealt with them for many years on a variety of different levels, and they continue to support the hunting industry.

We're super proud to be affiliated with them and look forward to a lot of new products they've got coming out here shortly. Here at Epic Outdoors, we publish a Western hunting publication nine months a year. The Epic membership includes nine issues of the magazine, where the first six months of the year are totally geared to breaking down all the Western States draws, Their application process, their deadlines, units, kill rates, drawing odds, everything that we feel is very important for you to make a calculated decision on whether you apply for that state or not, and how you want to apply for trophy, for more opportunity hunts, but do it from a current year perspective. We also have a bunch of different articles in there from biologists from the states, hunter next door articles, uh, what else, Jason? Yeah, the hundred dollar subscription, you know, includes, uh, consulting. So we deal with our clients on a regular basis over the phone, help them develop their hunting plans and, uh, any, anything to do with Western big game. Once guys draw tags, they can call in. We'll put them on a list, give you a list of members who've hunted in the past, or help you find outfitters, and so, and, and... We've got a lot of experience across the West, and it might be that you draw a unit

We've got experience in, we have no problems helping you. So, anyway, this is just a very interactive service, 100 bucks a year. Try to be all-inclusive on Western Big Game, and of course, from a trophy perspective, you know, we all like the big stuff, and so we really try to, you know, capitalize on the changes that are happening and some of the different great opportunities out there. Yep, so if you're interested, you can find us on the web at epicoutdoors.com or call us at 435-263-0777. Anyway, thank you to Under Armour. Thanks to John. Hey John, you on the line? You betcha. Hey, we just want to, you know, tell you thanks for taking an hour or two out of your schedule and visiting with us over the phone.

Of course, when we had you on earlier, we talked a lot about the Wildlife Board and conservation groups and the good things that come from selling tags and expo tags and different things. You've taken that hat off recently, haven't you? The Wildlife Board hat? Yeah, well, my six-year term actually expires here. I'll be officially off the board here in a few more weeks, but as far as meetings and whatnot, it's all wrapped up. Yeah, you're still getting hate emails for two weeks, but nothing you can do about it. No meetings or anything. I've never seen anything negative on Facebook about John. No, or Instagram, or the web, or chat forums. I'll send you some, yeah. I tell you, that's one thing. You get involved like that, you learn who your friends are pretty quick. And especially your enemies, John. Especially your enemies. That's right.

Well, good. Well, you know, you're not doing much if you don't have hate. You realize that? Oh, yeah. If you don't get somebody mad at you, somebody ain't doing their job. That's right. Well, I know Jason and I and all of us here, as well as a ton of other people in Utah, appreciate your six years there on the board, leaving there as the chairman, and, you know, see, I guess, who's gonna replace you, so to speak. But, been great for Utah Wildlife, as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, me too. Well, I really appreciate it. It's been an honor to be able to serve, and it's quite the experience. Always sitting back watching those meetings, I always thought, man, just do this and do that. It's an easy decision until it's your decision. I mean, we have a lot of passionate sportsmen, and people love wildlife here, and that's why they live here. So, it's all good.

That's right. Well, we're not just going to let you sink back into the private sector and do nothing. I mean, just wondering if you're like the lead candidate for the director for the state, or what's your next gig going to be? Yeah, I don't think that's in the governor's plans. The deputy director is stepping in to take over Mike Fowkes, and he's a great guy. Good. He'll be the next director, Director Sheehan, who's on to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Utah won't skip a beat. Mike's a great guy and will do a great job, and he's got a lot of good staff around him, and I don't think they'll skip a beat. Good. Well, at least, you know, I guess you can just go back to killing coyotes and turning them in for 50 bucks a piece. And so, anyway, that's kind of why we wanted you on here today. We just want to visit about coyotes, which, you know, I know Adam and I kill them every time

We see him, or at least we shoot at him. Yeah, well, that's the important part of the equation, is making it count when it comes time to pull the trigger. Yeah, you know, we just have never had a podcast about dogs, and hunting them, and calling them, and different things. It's kind of getting to be that time of year in some regards, too. You know, but I don't know, you know, we've known you for a long time. I don't know, I don't know, you've always liked to hunt coyotes. Like, it seems like you have been, you know, I'm gonna say, in the last five years or so, you probably always have hunted them like everybody, but maybe tell us about, like, your background and ranching. I mean, we know where you come from. You're proud of that, Sam Peake country, and I know you've got an affinity for the woolly bugger, the sheep. You got a really soft spot in your heart for woolly buggers.

And so, maybe that's where the... Yeah. I'm hiding the wool, I guess you might say. I grew up in Manti on a sheep ranch. My dad worked on a big sheep ranch for a family there. And my grandpa and my great grandpa both ran sheep in Colorado for a long time, then moved out here to Utah. And my great grandpa was actually a trapper on the Deseret Land and Livestock before the LDS Church owned it. And they ran a bunch of sheep up there. My uncles worked there as sheep herders, and my grandpa was a great grandpa, actually, was a trapper there. And as long as I can remember when I was a little kid, I knew my great grandpa really well. And I grew up just down the street from him, and every Sunday afternoon, he'd come over and have dinner with us. And that was my favorite part of the week. After that, we'd go sit on the back porch or in the front room,

and he'd tell me stories about trapping and hunting coyotes and lions and all the bears and all the cool stuff he dealt with as a trapper. And of course, I got to grow up in the sheep business, I mean, killing coyotes was just part of life. You're bred to hate coyotes, basically. Oh yeah, I don't ever remember not loving to hunt coyotes. I mean, I can remember the first time I ever shot one. I was probably 11 or 12 years old. We finally called one in, and it was out across the big old safe fresh flat out on the Sandrafeld Desert. I've seen it come in. I told my dad, there's a coyote right there. You know, I was trying to be quiet. Of course, I was excited. And I was trying to tell him where it was, and I guess my instructions weren't very good. He couldn't see it, and he told me to shoot it.

And then, I leveled off on it and killed it. I did. It was probably 150 yards. It seemed like 1,000 yards to me at that age. The only guy I had at that time was an old 7mm Remington mag. I bet that opened him up. I'm here to tell you that was a user-friendly predator gun. I remember that bugger scope bit me and kicked me so hard. I hope we didn't call anything in the rest of the day just because I didn't want to pull the trigger. You know, from that time on, walking up to that coyote there, and we had one of our sheepdogs with us that was out there getting after him a little bit. Man, it was just addicting after that. I just, and we've hunted coyotes my whole life. I mean, there was a few years where we had, a few years, I guess it was about 12 years, where we had lion hounds.

And so, we'd spend most of the winter hunting lions, and then we'd just hunt coyotes in the summer. So, we'd hunt them all year round. And so, is it just with, like, whether you got on social media, we got on social media, I mean, it seems like you're crazy about them. I mean, have you always been crazy about them, or is it just the last five years? I mean, or is it just that we know you a little better because we're following your posts, and maybe you're using the dogs with them, too. Maybe that's where we're seeing it. Probably the last six or seven years, we've probably got a little more serious about it than we have been in the past. I mean, we've always done it, but it seems like we're a little more serious year-round about it. Would your wife use the same word as you, serious, or would she use another word to describe your kind of hunting addiction?

You know, I don't know. I can tell you a little story about my wife. Be careful. No, no, let's have it. She gets home from the gym last year as I'm loading up a dogster up on the hill, and I said, you want to go with me? I said, I'm just going to go up and look around. Of course, she had her gym clothes on, and she's like, yeah, I'll ride with you. We get up there, and I fired up the siren and the howler and have some coyotes answer just across the canyon. I said, well, let's just walk over there. She says, well, you know, I don't know. I says, here, I got a camo jacket you can put on. So, she's got bright orange shoes on, bright orange gym pants, bright orange tank top, basically blaze orange everything in it. The camo coat I let her wear. We go over there and call in a pair, and she thought it was great

I was watching them come in and just thought it was all nice. We killed these coyotes and dragged them back to the truck. Take pictures with them. She acted like she really liked it. Then the next time, I said, you want to go again? Nah, that's alright. She said, you can go sit in the brush. That's what she calls it, sit in the brush. You can go sit in the brush. You know, it's just something that I grew up doing. I think the more you do it, the better you get at it, I guess the more you like it, and the more you do it more. And of course, social media kind of spreads the word a little bit. I mean, I didn't know Jason was the big buck master until I started following social media. I didn't know Adam was a great sheep guy until I started following him on social media. So, I guess that kind of tells our secrets. That one is a little surprising.

It catches everybody off guard. Yeah. Oh, shoot. Well, cool. That's awesome. Maybe talk to us a little bit about, since you've been so involved with Utah and the division and all of that, I know we're fairly anti-predator here in the state, generally speaking, but tell us about Utah's efforts to control these populations and if you've seen the difference in the deer populations and the overall health of the herds here across the state. Well, you know, over at BYU, we got some great young biologists over there. Randy Larson's one of them. And he's done a very extensive study on mule deer and on the effects of coyotes on mule deer. And he came to the Wildlife Board last year and showed us that on the areas where we really concentrate on fawning ground, predator control, our fawns are—our fawn recruitment's actually up.

The first couple years, it was up quite a bit, and then it kind of leveled off a little bit. And of course, those numbers go up and down, biology and in fact science, but the first couple years where we really hammered coyotes on some of these units, The fawn recruitment really, really showed. And Utah has really made a concerted effort to get after the predators, specifically the coyotes. We've got a bounty hunt on them here, $50 and a coyote. Now, I don't think all the coyotes that get killed are actual fawn killers. I mean, a lot of guys go out in the winter out on the desert and shoot coyotes, and I do too. It's a great time to hunt them, and it's when the pups are starting to get out on their own early in the fall and early winter, and it's a great time to hunt. But I don't think a lot of those coyotes are real fawn killers. But the ones we concentrate on on the fawning

grounds, maybe the higher country coyotes, the ones around the foothills and that, I think those definitely have an impact on our deer population. And on the The deer study has shown that a lot of the fawns, you know, a huge percentage of the fawn mortality comes from coyotes. And so, if you can get out in the fawning grounds and get those breeding pairs, you know, you can definitely, definitely help out the deer herd. And the studies at BYU that they've done have definitely, definitely shown that. And Utah's, like you said, we're pretty mean to our predators here, especially the coyotes. I know some of those same studies back when I was at Utah State, so it's been 10 or 12 years ago, 15, I don't know how old I'm getting, but anyway, they were doing some on Deseret and other parts of the state, and the... you got a lap dog there with you, Ben? Yeah, that's a little hipper. Just checking.

Just checking. We'll turn it in, we'll turn it in, we'll turn it in, we'll get 50 bucks off of it. Okay, just checking. That's my wife's coyote dog. Okay, I'm just checking. Well, anyway, these same studies, I remember reading them, and they'd do implants on the coyotes and track them year-round, obviously, and look at the peaks when prey base would switch from, say, small mammals, you know, mice, rabbits, all that, to when you had a breeding pair that had an active den, how the prey size, obviously, The demands for protein meat would go up because they got six to ten mouths to feed. And I'm sure Randy's been involved in that too. And how that if you can disrupt that breeding pair after they bred or right as they're puffing or right after they do, you can have a much bigger bang for the buck, so to speak, by just killing, like you said, coyotes in November and December.

You know, we're all shooting coyotes in November and December, but April, May, June, you get a lot more bang for the buck, and that's a little bit unconventional, but it might lead us into some of the strategies you're going to get into here in a minute in terms of, you know, types of calls and types of year, you know, different times of year and things like that. You know, you bring up a great point. You go find a coyote then this time of year, and they are just littered with fawn legs. I mean, there will be fawn legs laying all over the place. They'll eat everything down to about the knee, and I guess that leg bone ain't much there, but the pups will chew on them a little bit. There is fawn legs laying all over the place. I guess that's just a great prey base for them because, man, they really, really turn up the heat on the deer. The fawns, I guess,

are easier to catch. It's a good meal for the pups and easier for the parents because I think a coyote living off of mice and Tweety Birds has a hard time feeding, like you said, All those pups. Yeah, they can feed themselves. They can feed one else. Yeah, that's a pretty good thing. You'll catch a fawn. And like you said, this time of year, when they're out in the fawning grounds and that, yeah, they can definitely, definitely put a hurting on the deer. But, if you know what you're doing, you can kind of turn the tables on. You can really, the old pair of coyotes, the old adults, the breeding pairs that have listened to the dying rabbits all winter long and had the planes after them and the government trappers, they made it here. If you know what you're doing, you can really put the herd on them.

So, let's talk about that. I know you want some more pressure out there with you, and you'd like to compete against some of these guys. So, let's talk about that a little bit. Like, let's say right now, you're going to go out today, and let's start with today, and basically, we've got fawns. Just about hit the ground. Yeah, right now I know in Wyoming, we're right there the last of May, first part of June. And you're right about the fawn legs. It's unbelievable. I spent a lot of time up there doing it. But let's talk about that. Like, let's say you were going to go out and kill some dogs today. I mean, versus, you know, this fall, versus this winter, versus next early, you know, late winter, early spring. Like, it's not just about dying rabbits, I know, of course, but we aren't John Bear. We don't know, you know, maybe explain that. Like, what do you, what do you, what would

you do going out tonight? Well, there's a few things that, there's a few things that I think a lot of people overlook hunting coyotes. And it's just like, when you guys go deer hunting when you're after a big buck or a big ram or something, you spend a lot of time scouting. And this time of year, I spend two or three nights a week scouting. And, uh, I'll scout for three or four days and then go hunt for one day. And the thing about this time of year is you only get maybe two or three stands in in the morning, and then it's pretty hot, and they kind of shut down. And then you may get two stands in in the evening before it gets dark when it's cool enough and the coyotes are active enough to respawn. So, I'll go out and find the place that I think will hold some coyotes.

A lot of times this time of year, I have sheep ranchers calling. This past week, I've had three different sheep ranchers calling, saying that they've been hit and wanting me to go get after them. So, I'll go out and just at dark, I'll go out and play the siren, play some howls or howl on my diaphragm or my mouth call, and I'll sit there. A lot of times, they'll answer right off the bat, but I'll usually sit there for at least 10 minutes. You'll get them answering and talking to you, and once they'll give their location away to you, then they're in trouble. And this time of year, if you can hear them, and they're barking and howling, you can bet they're pretty close to a pan, and they're going to be around there, you know, the next morning or the next evening.

They're going to be fairly close, and you can kind of gauge the wind. If I'm there in the evening, I take note of what direction the wind's going. And you know in the morning that's probably going to be a little different, but it kind of helps you make a game plan. Because you only got one shot at these coyotes. If you go in and screw it up and don't get them dead and they see you or wind you or get in a fight with the dogs and get out of there without you killing them, you're probably not going to see them again. They'll move their den, or what are they doing? Yeah, they'll move their den, or they just won't respond. I mean, they won't respond anymore. And that's another thing about this time of year. When I go out locating, as soon as they talk to me, I don't say another word to them. I don't howl back at them. I don't play the siren.

Challenge them. Yeah, I don't challenge them. I don't want them to feel threatened, because then they'll move. And I just want them to show me where they're at, and I don't say another word. And then you don't sleep all night long, right, waiting until daylight. Just dreaming about dogs. Well, that's right. Once in a while, I mean, I've been known to just sleep in the truck and stay right there until the next morning. Come on. I mean, sometimes you go out locating, I mean, and it might be 2 in the morning when you get them to answer you, and it's going to be light. Three and a half hours. So, you'd locate, I mean, you'll drive, stop and drive, stop and drive, stop and drive, you know, until midnight or 2 in the morning. Yep, oh yeah. I mean, if you got work the next morning, I don't know that you guys would know about that.

Oh, jeez. This podcast is spiraling downhill already. I was below the belt. Oh, jeez. So yeah, locate, locate, locate. That's the thing. Like I tell guys, I scout for a week to hunt for a day. And then, this time of year, you know, we talked a lot about dying rabbits. I haven't played a dying rabbit sound in six weeks, and I probably won't play another one until the end of September, 1st, October. So, you say, now that you located one, tomorrow morning comes. I mean, talk us through what you're going to do to play it on. This time of year, I have a couple of mountain curbs that I like to take with me that are coyote dogs. They're real fun to hunt with. It's a little bit different strategy. But you don't always, sometimes I don't take the dogs. You don't have to have the dogs to be successful this time of year.

If I get them to talk to me, I'll get in the next morning or the next evening, get the wind right. Because this time of year especially, when you've been locating and they're expecting another coyote, they're going to try to circle downwind of you to get wind and see exactly what they're dealing with. And the dogs kind of help with that. If they can see a dog, it kind of trips their crazy trigger, And they're not as apt to try to wind you. But if you're just sitting there and there's no dog, and you're just trying to call them in, they're going to try to wind you. And they'll swing downwind, you know, sometimes they won't. When you're trying to challenge bark, act like another coyote is in their area. Yeah, yeah. Anytime you're calling them, they're going to try to wind you.

But we'll go in and set up, and if there's two of you, it's nice, because you can set somebody looking downwind and try to catch them circling downwind. Just get where you can see, and I'll sit down, and my favorite sound to start a standoff with is just kind of a wimpy howl that doesn't sound too threatening, or a female submissive, which is just kind of some yips and howls, and just kind of let them know, hey, there's a coyote over here, kind of in your territory, and just kind of get their attention. You You don't want to go in there and crank your call up to 40 or go in there and just sound like you're going to tear the place apart because they might just pack it up there. I tell people all the time, you know, when I was a little kid and I went to Grandpa's house, when Grandpa walked in, he was the boss, and he had that voice, he had that big

old gruff voice. You didn't challenge him, you didn't talk back to him, you did whatever he said, and you were just glad that he was allowing you to breathe the air you were breathing That's so true. He was the boss, okay? You don't want to sound like grandpa. Whereas on the other hand, my cousin Joe, he just had that voice that he didn't intimidate you, he didn't scare you, and as soon as he started talking, you wanted to smack it. That's what you want to sound like. You just want to, just enough to be, to sound like a coyote, but not, you don't want to sound threatening. You don't want to sound like you're cutting on a mouth. Kind of annoying and squeaky, like maybe a young coyote that's in their territory. Yeah, as much as anything, if they're a pair, they just don't want any competition to kill and eat anything in their...don't eat anything in my country and run you out, right?

Well, not only that, but if they got a densite there, and they got a pup there, oh, they're going to be...yeah, they just are psycho about protecting those pups. So, I'll do a little I'll howl like that, I'll do some barks maybe, like some female barks, like something's going on that she's worried about, and then I'll play some Puff Distress on the Fox Pro. Or I can, if, and you guys can use a diaphragm call, I'm sure. If you take an elk diaphragm and flip it upside down so the long reeds on the bottom, you can make any coyote sound on the planet. And you give some wine. Yeah, that's good news. Well, you're gonna have to now. That's something you can practice while you're riding around the train. Yeah, or at home, you know. Is there people? Oh yeah, yeah. Your kids will love you for it. Your wife will love you for it.

There's a business I did. Just buy elk diaphragms, flip them over, and charge double, and tell people they're coyote diaphragms. That's right, that's right. Charge them double. Epic diaphragm, sign up. Here we go. The bear version. Ding, ding, ding. Yeah. Hey, we got our first. We got our first pro staffer right there. That's a $500 idea right there, buddy. Somebody's gonna get paid. You go throw some puff howls at one of them and some puff lines, and them coyotes will come boiling in on you. And sometimes it takes a little while to trip their trigger. They'll sit out there and bark at you and howl at you a little while. And that's another thing about this time of the year is I like to sit a lot longer. In the winter, 13, 14 minutes, we're up and moving. If we haven't seen anything this time of year, I'll sit a half hour.

For some reason, it seems like it takes a little while once in a while to get them in. So, you know they're there. When you're thinking of going back the next morning, why would you take your dogs and why would you just go and try to call them in? Under what scenarios? Or do you always like to try this day and age, use your dogs? Because like you said, if you do a howl and your dogs are out there running around, They see them, their guard's down as far as looking for John Bearer in a cowboy hat and a ghillie suit. They're not looking for you anymore. You know, they're looking for the dogs. You have to deal at them. When we go hunting, if you show up in a ghillie suit, it's over. Well, what about skinny jeans? That wouldn't surprise me, but that's going to end the trip too. Okay. So, pinny jeans, buckle jeans, all that stuff's on the non-approved list.

Okay. So, no ghillie suits, so just basic pants and shirt, camouflage. All right. Yes, their camouflage works. Flat-rimmed hats. Yeah. Flatties, yeah. So, why wouldn't you... You guys are just... you know, you guys are just... I don't know. I don't know. Hey, we're in the South. We're country boys. You're from the city, so let's don't get things confused here. You're from the big city up north. It's a city, man. Well, you're a little further north than that now. So, will any old dog work, John? Like, can I take one? I got a dog, but it's not trained on coyotes. But I mean, just sitting a dog by you, does it help, or is it...?

Yes, it can. I mean, I see people post videos all the time of, like, their cow dogs, coyotes chasing their cow dogs, or their labs while they're out. I had a kid the other day that I know real well tell me that they were up working their bird dogs in some chucker country, and coyotes come boiling out of their ox, and were chasing their springers all over, you know? So, yeah, but they, I mean, if you... Yeah, back to that question, why would you, if I had a couple trained dogs, like you're not just family dogs that, you know, might get you in trouble or might get themselves killed if they go start running around with a pair of coyotes that grabs their throat, why wouldn't you, what's the benefits or when would you use just to go try to call them in versus, hey, I'm going to use the dogs in the morning?

Well, the dogs can be a huge asset. Once in a while, they can work against you. So, sometimes you'll call in a coyote, especially if it's a single. They'll come in and see the dogs, and maybe not, you know, it might be a young coyote. Might be intimidated. Yeah, and just not want to deal with them. And once in a while, they'll run one off like that. But, you go When you find a thin sight, you get as close as you dare get, and a lot of times I'll give some female submissive or a female yodel howl on the Fox Pro, and then coyotes will start barking, start threat barking, like, you know, what are you doing? You're not welcome. That's when a good trained coyote dog starts to shine. Those dogs of mine, they hear a coyote, They perk right up. Oh, she'll take off like a rocket. My older dog, he's getting out, so he kind of looks at me like, you want me to go?

You want me to really go over there? Put on my collar. Yeah. That's right. Put on my kevlar. They'll take off, and they'll run over there, and you'll kind of listen for the fight to start, and you'll hear them coyotes screaming, and the dogs barking, and here they come. And those dogs will go over there and pick a fight with those coyotes, and as soon as the coyotes start chasing them or chewing on them, the dogs will turn and come back to you. And they'll reel them right in. And here, a few days ago, I was here not too far from where I live, and went out and set up on some that I'd located a couple nights before, and they answered right back, and the dogs took off, and the dogs went out. The last mark on the GPS I got from the dogs were about 800 yards before they started back, and I never did hear a fight, and I never did hear anything barking,

But I got my glasses out and started looking, and here my old dog come trotting down the road. There's a little two-track there. He come trotting down the road, and about 100 yards behind him, he had a female coyote just following him in. Wow. And he come over and sat right down to me, and she come out in the flat, and then my pup decided she was going to get in on it, and ran her up through the brush a little ways. And they were up there running around, and here come another coyote in, and tried to get in on it.

He's a big bugger. I shot him out in the flight. Is that the one you sent me, that giant? Yeah, he's 45 pounds. I've never seen a coyote that big before around here. He was a skinny 45 pounds. The dogs ran out and jumped on that coyote and started chewing on him. Well, then here the female come out of the dog's end to defend her dead buddy, and she just sat there and barked at the dogs while they were chewing on the dead one, and I shot her. So, that's when they can really be a benefit on the bears.

You get a pair of them. Oh yeah, you call one in and shoot it, and the dogs are out there on it, and the other one, a lot of times, will hang around to defend their dead buddy. Wow. So, just be patient. You get two or three coyotes. Yeah. It's not like normal when you're rabbit calling, and you call in a double, and that first one hits the ground. It's like, run your action and slap the trigger as fast as you can on that other one, because there's nothing stopping it, basically. No, there's nothing stopping it, but when you got a dog out there running around, a lot of times they'll bring it back. Yeah. You know, sometimes it works out perfect. One dog will take the dead coyote and start chewing on it, and the other one will chase the other coyote a little ways and then come back, and it'll just reel them right in. I mean, and it's a lot of... That's got a pretty dang phone there.

Oh, yeah. It's a lot of using dogs that you're only watching the dogs work, just like any other... Birds, lions, birds, lions, anything. So, now there's a lot of times you can go out and just sit down and call the coyotes in, and maybe the dogs don't do you a lot of good. But that's probably the funnest hunting I've ever done, is using my cur dogs on the coyotes. So, if a guy wants to get into the dogs, I mean, is it something, I mean, is there obviously people that train them, breed them, you know? Or do you have to do it yourself? You know, it's pretty tough to find a trained coyote dog anywhere for sale, because it takes so much work to get one to do what you want it to do that guys just don't... Get rid of them. They just don't sell them. And, you know, I've sold pups to people before, and the hard part

about coyote dogs is getting them on enough coyotes to teach them. Now, if you live in Texas or New Mexico or someplace where they're just... Dogs that are... Coyotes, yeah, and guys are out hunting them every day. But if you're going to have a coyote dog and you're only going to go out and get him on four or five coyotes a year, you don't have a coyote dog. You might as well have a family dog. Yeah, yeah, that's what you got. So, that's the hard part about dogs is getting them on enough coyotes to train them. So, how long will you do this strategy? Is it basically the month of June, June, July? I mean, pretty soon those pups are off on their own.

Well, yeah, and it seems like all the dog guys always want to start in April, and it's usually a little early in April, and they're not really aggressive. May, they start to warm up a little bit. June's really good. They're working really good right now. July's really good. August is really good, and then September's kind of hit or miss. Usually, by the end of September, it starts to kind of fade out, and they're not as aggressive. Pups are big enough, they can kind of fend for themselves a little bit, and they're not defending them as much. Yeah, and it's a crazy thing. I've had pups come in in the end of August, 1st to September, that act just like the adults. I mean, they're just mean and tough and thinking they're ready to fight. And then the coyote dogs gang up on one of them, and they ain't so ready to fight anymore.

So, yeah, the pups can get pretty mean pretty fast. I don't know if they get that from watching mama or defending their Dan or what, but some of them pups, they get pretty mean pretty quick. Tired and hungry and out there. Yeah, I guess. I don't know. They're just ornery teenagers, I guess. I don't know. Have your dogs ever had any, I guess, close calls or any? Oh, yeah. You get one, you get ones over here and ones over here getting ganged up by four coyotes or something. You're like, oh, this could go south. You know, you gotta realize that when you go out there and turn those dogs, you're using them for coyote bait. Live bait, yeah. You know, and coyotes kill stuff for a living, so they gotta kind of be tough. Sometimes one dog works real good, but you always run the risk of getting them chewed up on.

And so, that's kind of the challenge, is knowing when to use one, when to use two. Three seems to be a little bit much most of the time. So, I always got one dog that's mad at me for leaving them in the box. Oh, geez. Yeah, they think it's a little bit. Is it a year-round thing? You can use dogs whenever? I mean, obviously really effective right now, but... Yeah, I mean, I take a dog with me a lot in the winter. I'll take my old dog, and he'll just sit next to me. I mean, if you shoot one and it's wounded or something like that, I mean, he's good to go get it, Matt, but they don't work a lot. You don't use them like you do this pup time? Yeah, they're just not as good as they don't really work, but during the spring and summer is really the best for the used dog. Awesome. And so, when do you really work on, you know, maybe back to the dying rabbit, you know, that works on these pups?

Is it September-ish, or when are you doing that? You know, usually by, yeah, towards the end of September is when we really start going back into the stress calls. We still use vocals. I use vocals all year long. Coyotes are extremely vocal animals. They talk all year long, you know, but it changes up a little bit. Will you keep locating at night? Same thing? Oh yeah. I mean, they're territorial even if they don't have a den. They're still kind of territorial where you'll find them in the same basic place in the morning. Yeah, you know, I don't know that they always answer you to defend their territory. I mean, they're just vocal animals, and they'll just answer. And a lot of times, you go out and get one going, and he'll start howling at you, and then you'll hear him for, you know, you'll drive down the road a mile,

and there'll be another one howling, and another one, and another one, and they just get each other going. And I think they're just, you know, I've never been able to figure out exactly what they're saying. I don't know that anybody knows, but when you get one howling, you know, they'll answer each other, and a lot of them are just kind of easy going, kind of, I'm over here, and I'm over there, you know, and you're over there, and how are you? But they'll answer you. You know, that's the thing that's all, is they'll give away their location. So, it's like hunting elk. Once you know where they are, once you hear one buccal or hear cows talking, you know, you can really set a game for it.

So, what are, I mean, maybe this time of year, I would guess this is maybe the time of year where you have some of your best days, but I know you always go down, it seems like the World Calling Championships and things like that. What are some of the best days you've ever had, or best weekends you've ever had as far as calling in and killing coyotes? Well, we've had pretty good ones. I went to Nevada with a guy last year, and from 7 in the morning till about 11 at night, we put 18 of them in the truck. Geez. Is that winter months, so dying distressed stuff? That was the, I believe that was about the first of October. Wow. And so you have a lot of- A lot of pups and stuff? Yeah, a lot of pups and a lot of coyotes out finally, you know, they're forgetting about the

about the den site and worrying about the pup. Yeah, they're just out eating. And in a situation like that, we'd go out and set up, you might howl a little bit just to get their attention, and then we're playing pup distress sounds just because they work all year long. You know, any kind of distress sounds, rabbits, foxes. Woodpeckers, all those things. Yeah, it has some really good distress sounds. Up stress, lightning jack is one of the most famous distress sounds ever. We use a lot of that. We use a lot of cottontail, woodpecker, and you know, you go out and you find a good spot that looks like it's got some coyotes, and you let the old distress sounds play.

And yeah, we put 18 in the truck that day at the World Coyote Calling Contest this last year, me and my buddy from over in Price that I hunted with. We played the same sound all day, and anytime we'd try anything else, it wasn't working. It was just a Lil's Cottontail on the Fox Pro, it's called. And we killed nine that day, and we thought we were tied for third. Went in and thought we were going to have a great second day and be right in the running for the world title. And our good spots dried up, and we couldn't buy one the next day, but we still placed pretty good. Ended up taking the big dog pot. We won about $1,500 for shooting a 35-pound coyote, which is the biggest one of the contests. And that whole contest, all we did is play a cottontail, and that's what they were doing. Down in Arizona, wasn't it? Or down there? Yeah, it was down in Arizona.

So, do you, you know, not to give away all your secrets on championship stuff, but are you pre-locating, you know, setting up maybe a week before it starts? Yeah, and the guys that, my buddy Al Morris, that is with Fox Pro, and they won, him and his buddy Garvin Young, his partner Garvin, have won the Worlds four times now. Now, Al lives just a little ways from here in Springville. They'll go down, I mean, a couple weeks before, and they spend every night out. That's insane. It's like you're scouting for a once-in-a-lifetime desert sheep. They act like it's a 200-inch deer, and it's just a coyote. Well, I'm telling you, man. Not to downplay it at all. A lot of people get frustrated when they don't kill coyotes, but I'm telling you, the guys that really are consistently killing coyotes. They're putting their time in, just like everything.

They put their time in. They do a lot of scouting. They do a lot of reps. Alan Garb will go down, and they'll figure out every stand. They'll have, you know, 70 stands laid out that they can go to. They know where they're going to park their truck. They know where he's going to sit, depending on what the wind's doing. And they know exactly where they're going to go, so you don't have to spend a lot of time guessing and thinking. What time you're going to go. I know I know why I'm never successful. That's right. This is what, when we go out there the three, four times a winter, and we think we're going to get her done, we don't have a prayer. Well, and I take my kid out there, and then we call one in, and now I'm starting to realize after talking to you for a while, which is a little depressing, but I start talking to you, and I realize how freaking lucky we were, you know, to call one.

I mean, geez. You know, this is the most, that contest is, in my opinion, the most competitive contest in the country. I mean, there's thousands of dollars at stake in gold buckles and custom guns, and you're competing against the best callers in the world, and you have basically a day and a half to get it done. And so, anything you can do, I mean, one coyote, we placed in the money by one coyote. Wow. And if we would have, you know, that's one miss, one screwed up stand, I mean, that costs you a couple thousand dollars. So, anything you can do to get the odds in your favor, you're doing. But, let's go back to what you talked about. You know, You can go out hunting with your kids and getting lucky. There's a few things you can do that will really tip the odds in your favor. And when you take your kids out, if you'll teach them this, you'll have more success, okay?

First thing you got to do is pay attention to the wind. Because if you're calling with the wind to your back and you're watching, you know, you can only see 50 yards or something, and the wind's hitting you in the back and blowing down the draw, you're watching. You're not going to see it. You're wasting your time. But yeah, just think about it just like sneaking up on a big deer. You've got to be mindful of that wind. The second thing, and my dad drilled this in me when I was a kid, I mean, I was scared to death to move on stand. If dad could see me move, I was going to catch that, man. He was just... You think those coyotes, I mean, they're... you're trying to out-predator a predator.

They've got the eyes, they've got a great nose, they've got great hearing. And if you're out there moving around, first off, they can see you. Second off, it makes noise, and you're just totally giving away your position. So, teach your kids to hold still. If you've got to move a little bit. That's easier said than done. Yeah, I mean, you've got to. It is. Teach your eight to ten-year-olds to hold still. Hold still. Tell your kids to hold still. My daughter, when I take her with me, Emma, she's about 14. I mean, she holds still to the point where I'll tell her, look over there, and she'll be like, she doesn't want to move. She doesn't want to look because she's afraid she'll move too much. And I was kind of that same way. So, teach them to hold still and teach them to look.

I mean, my kids, when I take them, I'll look over and they'll be, you know, looking at the ground or twiddling their shoelaces or some dang thing. A lot of times, those coyotes are sneaking up and they're peeking around to push at you. They don't all come blazing in like, you know, the video show. Yeah. Like on fur takers and that, you know, that's always the good video when they come flying in. A lot of times, those coyotes peek over the ridge at you and you only see one ear and one eyeball peeking around to push at you. And you've got to consciously just discipline yourself to look and look and look. Just tear that place apart. Just convince yourself that there's a coyote there, and you've got a seam, because they are hard to see.

They don't always come running in. You know, a lot of times they'll come sneaking in and just peek through the brush at you if they're only, you know, 18 inches tall, and it doesn't take much to hide one. So, hold still, play the wind, and just really, really, really look close. I use binoculars on every stand. Before I get up and leave, I glass every ridge line and every bush and just tear the place apart. And it'll surprise you how many coyotes just sneak in, try to get a peek at what's going on, and don't really come running in. Are you glassing during the calling or just at the end? I am glassing the whole time. I get my glasses out, and first thing I do if it's a big area,

I'll range a couple places out there, because Kyle's not a very big target. If you're going to shoot him at 300 yards, you know, it's good to know he's 300 yards. So, I'll range a tree or a rock or something out of the stars, and I think one might show up. And then when I start calling, I mean, I'll give it a few minutes, and then I'll start glassing. I'll blast for a minute, and then I'll tip him down and just look and look and look, and then I'll blast out a little ways. A lot of times, you'll catch them long ways out coming over the ridge, sneaking in, so you know where to watch. You know there's one coming in. I tell you, it's just like hunting deer. If you put glasses up and use them, you're going to see a lot more stuff. If you didn't take your glasses with you out scouting deer, sheep, or whatever you big shots hunt the rest of the year, you're not going to see as many of them.

But you also got to remember that there might be one sneaking right up next to you 10 feet away, and you got to be watching for him, too. So, I'll blast for 10 or 15 seconds and then look away from my glasses and just keep it going like that. How long do you sit on a stand normally? A normal stand? You know, you don't have to be back to work. You're going out all day long. You're calling from daylight till dark. How long do you normally stand if you don't know there's a coyote there in a normal situation? I like to stay between 15 and 20 minutes. Some guys are 10 minutes and they're up and going. I've had good luck between staying a little longer. It seems like seven minutes for me, no matter what time of year. Seven minutes is kind of the witching hour.

It seems like, you know, I've killed more coyotes right on seven minutes than any other amount of time, but I've killed a lot of them at 15 minutes. I've killed a lot of them at 25 minutes. And if you go out and say you just run out after work out in the brush, and you know, it's almost dark, and you got 45 minutes, it takes you 10 minutes to walk into your stand, just sit up there until it's dark. Yeah. There's no such thing as too long on the stand. Some guys just don't like to do it because, you know, they're impatient. That's fine. Yeah. But that's like good luck, you know, at the 15, 20, 25-minute mark. And a lot of times, that's when you'll get the ones that are just sneaking in. Maybe they're a little educated. Maybe they're just not very hungry. You know, maybe they're just naturally a little leery.

But they'll, you know, you'll see one walk in and sit down 200 yards. Or you'll see him just sneaking down the draw. Maybe he's come in and seen you and sneaking out, but if you'll stay just a little bit longer on stand, I think you'll have more success. And you mentioned, you know, your gun a minute ago, but tell us about what do you use, what your rifle scope set up, and then, you know, most coyote guys, everybody's, you know, carries a shotgun, and I know a lot of times when I've used those, it kind of depends on how many guys you got going with you. If it's me alone, I'm not gonna take a shotgun. You know, this time of year... If you got two or three, you might when they're barreling in on you. Maybe, yeah, you have one in your lap at least, but... This time of year, I'm carrying the call. I got the dogs. I got my .22-250 with me. I usually take a chair with me.

And I don't...this time of year, I just don't carry a shotgun because I just got too much stuff. In the winter, when I don't have to worry about the dogs and getting them through the fence and getting them out of the truck and they're not jumping all over you and stuff, then I'll carry a shotgun, especially during the contest. But my favorite gun that I have is a .22-250. I've got a couple of them, and to me, it's just the perfect balance of, I mean, user-friendly. It does some kick, shoots light out. They're just very inherently accurate. I shoot a .55 grain bullet, depending on the gun. I shoot several different .55 grain bullets, but it's just deadly on them. You know, I've killed, I shot a coyote the other day at about 250 yards. I watched my buddy Big Al Morris shoot one the other day, and I'm not saying this is skill, so if he listens to this, I don't want him thinking.

You don't want to get him a big head or nothing. No, but he killed one the other day at about 690 yards at the .250. Oh, come on. Got a turret on that gun? Yeah, is he doing a turret or a reticles, or what's he doing? I, well, I think he's just really lucky on that one. Just held over? I'm not giving him any skill credit whatsoever on that shot. Yeah, that's a Hail Mary. The point is that 55 grain bullet gets it done. I mean, it, you know, it's going fast and it carries good. I really like the 22-250. I use several different scopes. I got a Zeiss. I got a nice Zeiss scope that works really good. The scope that I use the most is the US Optics 5-25. It's got the MOA reticle in it that's nice if they're out there 400-500 yards. But, I mean, for years and years, I shot a Louisville 3-0, and that's a, you know, great scope.

And I don't know why I get so wound up having a high-powered scope, because it kind of runs in at 10 yards, and you're on 20 power. You don't see anything but a blurry mass, and it screws you up. So, that's another thing I'd say. Make sure when you sit down on the stand, you get your scope, and it'll screw you up. Yeah, because if you get one coming in your lap, you don't got time to dial it down. If you got one hanging up, you don't always got time to dial up on the one hanging up. Yeah, you got a lot more time to dial up than you do dial down. And one thing I've started doing the last couple years is shooting a suppressor. And there's a couple benefits to that. It's easier on my dogs if I, you know, if my dog's right in front of me or something and you're shooting suppressed, it's a lot easier on the

dogs. And a lot of times on stand, you're hunting with your buddies. And, you know, sometimes even as hard as you try, and you think, alright, I'm not going to muzzle blast Adam sitting over there and you touch one off and his ears ring for a week. You know, suppressors are just It's a lot easier on everybody. So, I really like a suppressor. A lot of guys use a .223, a .243, and the new .65 Creedmores are super popular. 7mms, I've heard of people use the 7mm. 7mm, you know. Deer guns. Growing up in Rednecks to Ampey County, when that's all you got, you know, you got two or three guns, and one of them is a 7mm, that's what you use. That's what you use. They still kill them. How do you decide on your stand locations? Like, what do you, I mean, obviously you want to be able to see. Wind's going to be good, but yeah, what do you wind and whatnot?

Well, if I've been out locating, and I know where there's coyotes, you know, then you kind of go to them and take what you can get. Obviously, you want to be where you can see. But you got to think also, what does a coyote eat? Most of a coyote, especially, you know, kind of in the winter, fall and winter, Fall and winter, most of a coyote's diet that time of year is mice, rabbits, and birds. So, you got to be in a place where they're going to have plenty of mice, rabbits, and birds, which usually means sagebrush, a field, a grass, you know, a grassy edge along the field, along a ditch, some edge where there's maybe some cedar trees, you know, where it kind It translates out into a big flat, and that's good coyote habitat. And if you see, you know, a lot of rabbits is very good.

If you're driving down the road in the middle of winter, and all of a sudden the road just gets hammered to death with rabbit tracks, you know, you want to start thinking about making a stand, because they will be where the food is. Most of the year, that's the only thing they're worried about, is where their next meal's coming from. When I was younger, I used to want to be where I could see five miles just flat open, and for some reason, I thought I was going to call coyotes up out of the ground. Yeah, loud call, everything. Yeah. Yeah, but now I look at it a lot different. There's got to be some cover. Broken. Yeah. Especially in daylight. You'll see them out in the flats, and you'll see them out in the fields in the daylight, but most likely, they're going to be where there's some cover, where they feel comfortable sneaking in, a little bit of sagebrush.

They catch some grass, something where there's something for them to eat, where they get some cover, where they can shade up. So, you know, southern Utah, you get a lot of that country where, you know, you got sagebrush, you got rabbit brush, you got bitter brush. It's, you know, it's awesome coyote habitat. I've kind of learned, if it looks like good deer habitat, it's probably good coyote habitat. Yeah. Because there's, you know, the deer are there, not because of the deer so much, but because that's a place where you can also find a lot of mice, rabbits, and birds. If you go out, I mean, some of them coyotes up in Wyoming and that, they'll live out in some of that kind of tribe. I have no idea why the coyotes even live there. Some of that stuff stuff. Yeah, still does.

But you gotta, yeah, you gotta travel a lot farther between coyotes to find them. So, good cover. And you want to find a place where you can see. Sometimes you have to set up a little tighter to cover, and it's a little close quarters shooting, but that's alright. But get where you can see, you know, as much as you can. Get where there's some backdrop against you. You don't want to sit skyline. You want to ideally a little place where you can just hop over a little ridge or a little lip and sit down in front of a bush or against a fence post or something to kind of hide your outline and where you can see. And, because I tell you, I think it would probably make us all a little bit nauseous if we knew how many coyotes we'd called in that walked in, looked at us, walked out, and we'd never seen them. Yeah, I don't want to know that.

So, you've got to think while you're setting up, you want to set where you turn the odds as much in your favor as possible. So, you want to sit where you can see, where you got the wind, you know, as favorable as possible. And one thing that also helps you stand out quite a bit is whether the sun is in your face or to your back. Because if the sun's in your face, especially later in the evening, you know, it's blocking out about half your stand. You're shining. Well, in every move, if you get a coyote coming that way, you blink your eyes, and they're going to see you from 300 yards. Yeah, so you're right. It works in two ways. You shine like a light bulb, and, you know, the coyote's got the sun at his back, and it makes it harder for you to see. So, if you can set up with the sun to your back, ideal stance. Sun to your back, wind to your face, and you can see, you know, as much around.

Yeah, you know, put a little bit of cover. Don't be afraid to call in a little bit tighter cover. That's one thing I've learned over the years is it's okay, you got to look a little closer, and your window to shoot might be a little smaller, but you're going to call in more coyotes and get more opportunities. Yeah, it seems like especially later in the day too, when a coyote's probably in that kind of stuff, laying down or sleeping just like any other dog, you know, You're not going to be out in the flat, wide open stuff in the middle of the day very often. Tighter cover, and the tighter cover also is when the shotgun comes in handy. You asked about a shotgun. If you're sitting in tight cover where you can only see 40 or 50 yards, and he's going to come in running, and you got a 20-foot window to get him dead, that's when a shotgun comes in very handy.

So, I don't always carry the shotgun to every stand in the winter and the fall, but there's... There's one in your truck. Yeah, you know, stand to stand, you're like, All right, I better pull it out. Usually, when I need one, it's in the truck. Yeah, when you call in a triple and one jams you. Yep. Tell us about your thoughts, I guess, on educated, call-shy coyotes. I mean, it happens with elk. It happens with turkeys. We all know what happens with coyotes, especially you get factors involved, like a $50 bill bounty on every coyote in Utah. I mean, there's been more coyote calls sold at Walmart than every Tom Bickenherry sporting goods store in the last three, four years in Utah. Probably the last 25 years before that combined. So, how do you overcome that type of...

That's what's stacked against most people that are not going to hunt it like you, or do it as often as you, or have all the tricks. How do you... What are some tips or things you've tried to do to call in dogs that you know have had stuff thrown at them before? Well, most people... I think, and I mean, and especially a lot of people still use hand calls. We use hand calls all the time. My dad still used hand calls. For years, we grew up using hand calls. Most hand calls sound like a dying rabbit. Yeah. You know, and so that's what the coyotes were used to, and that's what the people used. But kind of getting to your point, one thing you got to understand is every coyote hunter thinks they are the ones not wise enough to coyotes, and that it's every other coyote hunter.

That's out there screwing up the coyotes and educating them. So, you got to kind of know, when you talk to guys, they're like, oh yeah, all these guys are out there educating the coyotes. Every single one of us educate coyotes. Every single one of us. One of them comes in behind you, you don't see him, he smells you, he's educated. You miss him, he's educated. Yeah, or if one just hears your call from a mile away and doesn't come in, you educated him to some, you know, even though he didn't even come in.

Oh, yeah. Yep. And so, you know, we all educate coyotes. So, the thing I kind of like to do is, that's why I like to vocalize a lot. You know, I think it adds a level of realism to the stand. And, you know, you think, well, there's something going on over there, but, well, I hear another coyote over there. You know, maybe it's not so dangerous, or maybe, geez, I wonder what they're doing. I'll go have a look. I don't know exactly what they're thinking, but it seems to work. So, in the same stand, would you do a little bit of light howling or something, and then go into distress as well? Yep, just give a light howl. Nothing to...don't want to sound like grandpa. I don't want to scare anything away. Just kind of a, hey, I'm a sissy coyote over here. I got a rabbit crunching. You know, come over and have lunch with me. And, you know, and it works, and it works.

Another thing, I think, and this is kind of a secret that some of my buddies might not like me giving out, but I'm going to do it. Alright, my pencil's out. A lot of these calls have crow sounds, raven sounds, and magpie sounds. You mean these electronic calls, you mean, you're talking about? Yes, yes. Yeah, if you go buy Fox Pro, it's going to have crow sounds on it, and if it doesn't, you can download crow sounds on it. Or ravens or magpies, okay? These corvids, crows, ravens, and magpies are some of the leariest, smartest birds on the planet. Absolutely, yep. Okay, so if you go out and play some crow sounds, and then play a rabbit or a woodpecker or a pup, a stretcher, and they hear that crow, that kind of works as a... It's kind of a confidence call, because a lot of times you'll see then crows and then magpies hanging around with coyotes on a kill. Absolutely, yeah.

They kind of, I think they kind of trust each other. Yeah, they kind of key off each other. Yeah. Every time I see crows, I look for a coyote under them. Yeah, you got to kill a dead deer or something, and you know it's there, and you drive up, and if birds are sitting there, you're like, okay. Birds are waiting for the coyote to kill something, so they can piece off it too, sometimes.

That's right, that's right. And you know, because they're both kind of living off the same thing. So, and it's, you know, there's kind of an old wives tale, not every magpie has a coyote, but every coyote has a magpie. And so, you know, you play some of those sounds, and it kind of adds a little bit of confidence. And don't be afraid to mix sounds up. I mean, I can't remember the last time I sat down on a stand and only made one sound. I mean, I change up sounds, I'll howl, I'll play fuck the stress, I'll play I'll play rabbit distress, I'll play wolf vector distress, I'll go back to the rabbit, I'll play different rabbits, and I probably make a lot more noise than a lot of people. I mean, I don't... The coyote can't come if he don't hear you. Yeah. I don't let the call run all the time, but I make a lot of noise. How loud? I mean, there's obviously...

Well, I don't start out really loud. I'll start out kind of mid-ball, just something that if they're... You know, because you don't want a coyote if he's out there at 300 yards thinking he's got a 500-pound cotton tail coming after him, you know. They don't need to think that. All you want to do is get their attention. You want to get their attention, you know, it's just like your wife walks up behind you in the kitchen and whispers in your ear, if you don't know she's there, it doesn't matter how loud she is, it's going to scare the crap out of you and it's going to startle you. Yeah. You don't want that. You want just to get your attention. Yeah. And then, start talking them in. So, if you go out there and just hit, you know, lightning jack on 40 right off the bat, some of them will come charging in and it doesn't matter, but some of them you'll see them just turn tail and run.

It's very educational to go to a place where there's a lot of coyotes, like we did in Alberta here. We've been there a couple times, and you'll see those coyotes out in that field, and you'll hit the call, and some of them act like they can't hear you, some of them will run you over, and some of them will turn and run the other way. And you try to get their attention. It's all about timing. Yeah, what's going on in the coyotes' head at the time they hear you. And then call them in. Takes us to another segment here, but just maybe one of the craziest stories you've got. I mean, of course, you've hunted them long enough. You've probably had them in your lap at times, but anything just come to mind that's just one of the craziest stories ever?

Oh, yeah, I got it. I mean, we were sitting on stand in Alberta, and the wind was so bad that day that it was blowing our cameras over. We were up there filming an episode of Fur Takers that aired here a couple years ago. And the wind was blowing so bad, we went back to the little ranch house we were staying in. That evening, right before dark, the wind stopped, and so we just thought, well, let's just walk out in the field. We'd heard some coyotes howling a couple nights before. We'd just walk out in the field, sit down, howled one time, and this was in October. Howled one time, and the whole river bottom just exploded. I mean, it sounded like there was a hundred coyotes. Of course, two of them sounded like 20, so it's hard to know. No. Well, then one coyote popped out of the river and headed our way, and another, and another, and another, and we're sitting there on a hill.

There's two, there's me and Al, and then there's two cameramen with us. So, there's four of us. We ain't got nothing to hide behind. We're just sitting there on the hill with two big cameras, you know, two big old Springville rednecks sitting there. And then coyotes run out in the field, and they just kept coming and kept coming and kept coming, and I stopped counting at five. Jeez. But the cameraman who was sitting behind me, he's like, there's eight of them. He kept telling me, there's eight of them. Don't screw this up, there's eight of them. So, of course, we're sitting out there in the open, moving the cameras around, and I had to move just a little bit to get my gun up where I wanted it. And the big male in the bunch jumped up on a little dirt knob there and looked at me and kind of leaned a little bit to one side.

And when they kind of give you stop and give you that lean, you know you're busted. So, I shot him, and coyotes just scattered everywhere. They were running all around us, and we were shooting and throwing lead like it was the war. And it's a good thing I killed the first one, because out of eight of them, that's the only one we got. Oh my gosh. So, it was... The cameraman's ribbed you the rest of the trip, huh? Oh yeah, I mean, he was rising the rest of the time. He's like, well, you know, at least out of eight of them, you managed to get one. Those odds are very, you know, those odds are definitely in the kind of favor. Just ask him how many he's killed. That's all you wanted is how many he killed. I know, he was a great cameraman. He had really good eyes. That's one thing about him. He killed the spot like crazy.

So, it was good to have him there. And then, another time here, a couple years ago, I had a pair located and went up. As soon as I got out of my truck, I could hear the coyotes just on the hill right above me. So, I just turned my dog loose and walked uphill a little ways and sat down. I just heard of moo cows right there. They start chasing the dog around. And the dog barked at the cows, which got the coyote going. The coyote comes down and gets in the prey. Pretty soon, it was just a big circus of dogs and coyotes chasing cows, and the cows chasing the dog and the coyote. So, I turned my collar on the hip-pup distress, and down through the bunch, I could see something coming. I thought, well, geez, that's my dog. Then, my dog's got a short tail. I thought, well, that's a coyote. That's got a long tail. That's not my dog. By the time, he was about 200 yards away from the time I seen him.

I tried to turn my sticks and get a good set, and I thought, well, he'll see me move and stop and give me a good standing shot. Well, by the time I even thought about turning sideways and getting lined up with him, he was jumping over the call and still coming, and he seen me move just a little bit, and he obviously didn't realize it was a person sitting there, but he seen that movement, and he laid his ears back and opened his mouth, and he was all teeth, and that bugger jumped right at me, and I just had to drop my sticks and spin the gun on him, and I shot him right across the nose. And when he dropped my head, I could reach out and touch him with a gun barrel. Come on! Awesome!

I'm serious. I couldn't believe it. I mean, that was the craziest stand ever. And then about 20 seconds later, another come right behind you, but I whistled at him when it was about 50 yards away, and it stopped, looked up, and I shot it. Yeah. And then the cows all had to come down and check it all out and stomped on my call. And that was the wildest stand ever. But that was the only coyote I've ever called in that I actually felt like was going to bite me. Yeah. But I honestly don't think that coyote knew it was the person there. It just hurt that pup to stress. It was this time of year. He was locked in. It hurt that pup to stress, and it was going to come in and take care of business. It just saw that movement and just jumped at it. I'm glad I was just turning that direction as much as I was, because if I'd have been a half-second slower, I'd have had that coyote right in my lap.

Those are the kind of stands that you go hunting for, because at every 100 stands you think, you have something crazy like that. I'm not a real decoy fan. I don't. Fox Pro makes a great decoy that some people swear by. I have enough stuff I have to carry out there and worry about. A lot of times I have the dogs with me in this time of year to decoy with. In the winter, I always kind of figure I want them coming in looking. I don't want to give them something to look at while they're 200 yards away. They might decide they don't like it and leave. I want to get them in as close as they can before they decide that. So, I'm not a real decoy fan, but some guys really like them, but I'm not that guy. Crazy. Well, good. Well, right on. Anything else? I mean, coyotes are some of the smartest critters known to man, and just, you know, with a lot of your experience and stuff, is

there anything super interesting, you know, that people may not know about that don't hunt them like you guys? Well, you know, they are. They're an amazing animal. There's 19 different subspecies of coyotes. Yeah, there's 19 subspecies of coyotes. I'm pretty sure it's... Is that just because they've got in with a red healer, a blue healer, a lab, I mean, all the different dog breeds over the years? I could be off on that number, but it's a lot. Is it like, is it the Eastern, Mexico, Canada, what is it? Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a bunch of different subspecies. I could be off on that number, but I'm pretty sure that's it. But, there's, you know, I'm sure Adam's Googling it right now.

No, I'm not. No, I'm not. Trust me. I'm not. I'm just, what I, yeah, I'm already thinking. I'm pretty sure, you tell me, I'm pretty sure the most sought after, kind of like stone sheep when it comes, or desert sheep, when it comes to sheep, they're probably the two right now that like the most sought after, I think the Henry Mountain coyotes are probably the top of that list. So, I think we need to get you down there with us in about 30 days. Well, we'll have to make a trip down there. But you know, speaking of sought-after coyotes, you go up to Canada, and those coyotes up there are giant, and they're really, really blonde. I mean, they're really pale, and they're really sought-after. And then you go back east, and they have black coyotes. Geez. And those are really sought after. So, they really are an amazing animal. They're very, very smart.

They're very, very intelligent and leery, and it's hard to hunt them with consistent success. But, I'll tell you this, there's only one way to learn how to do it. And you can listen to a ton of seminars and podcasts and read all those. The articles and that, but unless you go out and do it, you're not going to have success, and you're not going to kill them. And I'll tell you, the hardest thing for me was to learn how to kind of seal the deal on the stand and not get so excited that I missed them all. Because even now, I mean, I miss, if you're going to have coyotes, you're going to miss, but it seems to take a while to kind of build the mindset that, all right, don't panic, you You know, know when to shoot and squeeze off and make a good shot. Every time I take somebody coyote hunting, I guarantee the first coyote they shoot at, they're going to shoot a foot

high. I don't care if it's 30 yards or 300 yards. Well, it's just like deer, and you know, you guys are spending so much time pre-locating, you're spending so much time and energy, you know, dealing with it all to get to that one final moment, and to miss is just brutal. It's not just like, oh, I went out and made a stand and I missed. I know I've got two or We're three days into this, till two in the morning, locating and stuff. It's important to make that shot count. That's the same way Adam and I feel about deer and sheep and anything else we're hunting. You know, and especially when you're, like if you're doing a contest, one coyote can be the difference between winning a contest and being out of the money. And You know, making the shot count is, in my opinion, probably as hard a part of the equation as Colin Wayne. Just getting one coming in the first place.

Yeah, because it's...and I always think, you know, once I see one coming in, you know, then you kind of switch your mind and say, all right, don't panic. You know, do I have a bullet in my gun? What's my pick? Make sure your safety's on, You get excited, and sometimes you have to move your gun around. You don't want to be bumping your trigger and the gun going off, or you're looking at the coyote or something like that. And then when that coyote gives you that shot, you've got to be thinking, how far is he? What position? Is he going to come closer? Am I going to be able to see him if he comes closer? Sometimes, you know, because there's such a thing as too close. And you want to make sure you get a good shot on him. And, you know, you got to spend a lot of time with your gun. You got to practice. Guys that only shoot once a year and then go out and call in a coyote, you know.

You don't want to be on stand with those guys because they're not going to hit him. Well, you're obviously, you mentioned contests quite a bit. And, of course, you know, sheep hunters have goals and deer and elk hunters, they all kind of have their goals, What they like, whether they want to slam or certain size or whatnot, but like, what are your goals? Are you wanting to win certain contests? Are you wanting to, I mean, what are your goals with it, or is it just... Yeah, I mean, I want to win every contest I enter. We won the youth contest with my daughter a few years ago. That was pretty fun. She thought that was a pretty good deal, but the most competitive contests, you know, There's one back east, the Eastern Championship, that they have like 400 teams go to. It's just huge. And one of the guys that's on Fox Pro staff with me won that last year and did a great job.

And I can't remember how many of that killed, but I mean, he just beat a bunch of guys. But to win a big contest like that, or the World Championship, in fact, I think the World Championship's going to be here in Utah this fall. Really? On the Henrys? Yeah, let's get him somewhere where we can grow some deer. Yeah, that's, you know, so, to win a big contest like that and know that you've beat some of the best callers in the world that have just prepared and scouted and worked their tail off, you know, that's a lot of fun. And even when you don't win and that, you go hang out with guys like that, you can't help but learn from them. And just to be with that caliber of hunters, it's a lot of fun. So, contests are definitely a lot of fun, but it's a lot of fun to get up in the morning and just take your dog and go out on the hill and call one in and watch it all come together.

So, you know, if people are thinking about getting into coyote hunting, don't overthink it. I mean, we've talked about a lot of different stuff today. You know, stick to the basics, the wind, the sun, make sure there's some cover, look around, find some tracks, some scat in the road, so you know there's some car that's there. And look, look, look, and hold still, and you'll have success. Have a gun that can shoot and be able to shoot it. That's right, that's right. And if you go out, you know, it's so much fun. Once you go out and have a little success, you won't be able to stop doing it.

Yeah. Well, I've always joked, and it's not probably really a joke, but you know that the last two animals on earth would be an elk and a coyote, and I'm sure the coyote would be last, but they're true. They can be everywhere. That's the thing about them. There's no seasons, and they literally are from 14,000 feet to sea level and everywhere in between and varying densities and whatnot. So, we talk about draw tags and how to get good tags and planter hunts and all that. And coyotes are something you can do any time of year, any time you want it. So, yeah, we appreciate your time today and learned a lot. You know, it's always good to talk to you guys. I appreciate you having me back on. I love what you're doing there at Epic, and it's good to see you guys' success. And, you know, there's always a hunting opportunity.

That's the great thing about living here in the West. There's always something to hunt. And you can hunt coyotes 365 days a year in most states. So, you know, if you're bored, you want to get your kid off the Xbox and get him out in the outdoors, you know, you don't have to have a $500 electronic call. Go get a $10 mouth call at Walmart or Sportsman's Warehouse and take him out and get him introduced to coyote hunting. And, you know, there's no excuse not to be out in the hills hunting. That's right. Well, hopefully it doesn't turn into like these shed seasons where we end up having a coyote season. Well, I'm here to tell you, I will go to my grave fighting a coyote. Alright. Well, alright, John, like Adam said, we sure appreciate you, man. You're a wealth of knowledge. You've walked the walk for many years on a variety of different levels, including the Wildlife Board

and a lot of different conservation groups and efforts, as well as, you know, your personal hunting. We just sure appreciate you spending some time with us. I know there's going to be a ton of listeners who are going to learn a lot from this, and hopefully you're not seeing them out in the hills competing against you, but we do appreciate you lending some of your knowledge today. That's no problem, guys. I mean, we all learned from somebody. I've got a lot of great hunters that have helped me out. Hopefully, somebody can pick up something from our conversation today that helps them have some success and enjoy the outdoors a little bit. So, I really appreciate you having me on. Okay, thanks a lot, man. We'll be in touch. Those Henry Mountain ones are, I think, the 20th identified subspecies is what I've been told. All right, buddy, we'll do it. We'll do it. All right, appreciate you.

All right, as we close this podcast, we do want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring this podcast and working with us here at Epic Outdoors. Adam and I, Chris, John, Jeff, and the crew are super appreciative of them and their efforts to support what we're doing. And, of course, supporting the hunting community. So, until next time, awesome. It's a great podcast.