EP 27: Coues Deer Hunting with Kevin Michael

You can always turn up a decent buck in, you know, any unit if you do a little bit of homework. You're turning up here, just like you're saying, 11, 12, I mean, just sit there and grind it. Close the distance, 300 to 400 more yards. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter and Adam Bronson here with the Epic Outdoors Podcast. Just got a cool guest on with us today, Kevin Michael. I know him fairly well, hunted with him, been in camp with him. Super excited to dive into this podcast with him. Before we do, we want to thank Under Armour for the sponsorship. You know, it's because of them that we've been able to bring so many of these podcasts to you. Of course, got good equipment, good people to help us out. And anyway, in large part because of them and their sponsorship and support of Epic Outdoors. So, anyway, just a shout out to them, appreciate them. And hey, you on here with us, Kevin? I am, how you guys doing? Good. Doing good, doing good. So, just, I guess, kind of just before we get started, we want to visit with you about just kind of, you know,

where you live and how you got started hunting and kind of your background, you know, when you were a kid. And, of course, how that leads up to being a coos freak. Okay. Well, I'm actually, I'm in Arizona. I was pretty much born and raised in Gilbert, which is, you know, about 30 miles east of Phoenix. People aren't aware of that. But, you know, I just, now I reside here with my wife and my three little girls. And actually raising my family about a mile from where I grew up. So, it's kind of cool. So, but basically raising a hunting family, you know, I was blessed to have a dad that was a hunting junkie and was dragging me out there when I was five, six years old, old enough I could be to get out there. And I remember hunting to Carlos and the reservation with him, chasing turkeys as a young age to hunting deer in Monticello, Utah. Man, it's freezing my butt off. Really?

Up in Adams country. Yeah. I'd like to talk a little bit about that, man. Yeah. So, we've kind of, we've kind of been all over the place with him hunting, you know. And I remember the second I was old enough to hunt, man, I was super excited. I actually drew a Kaibab tag at 10 years old and shot my first buck. And, you know, it's been, you know, I haven't looked back since. And still get out with my dad a lot hunting and brother and family. And it's just been, been kind of one of those things that we've, we've carried on throughout the family. And I've carried it on into my family. And my daughter just turned 10 this year and, and I killed her first buck. So, it's been, been pretty cool, man. I'll tell you, I mean, as you know, Jason, and it's like, man, your kid kills that first animal. Or, it's, it's just a different feeling, man. Hunting's came to a new level.

You know, the things that mattered before, you know, and getting out and hunting for yourself, it don't matter. Now, it's like, I get her another tag and get it back out in the woods with her, you know. It's funny how life changes like that. I know Adam's boys, same way. And, of course, he's got some daughters, too. And just, you get them out there and they kill their first animal, second, third. I don't know. They can't kill enough as far as I'm concerned. I love it. So. No, it's crazy. You know, obviously, as you guys know, you know, deer apps and stuff are right now. And I'm just like, my daughter's like, Dad, can I get a coos this year? Because we put her in for a mule deer tag, you know. So, I'm like, yeah, babe, we'll get you, we'll get you on a coos deer this year. So, you know, it's, it's pretty cool, man.

It's, it's, it's fun to be able to sit down and, you know, get them a true understanding of what hunting's about and being out there. And just getting those memories, man, because, you know, growing up, it was, you know, all my best memories have been in hunting. You know, being in the field with my dad or brother, good friends, cousins, family, whatever it may be. It's, it's, it's a pretty cool experience. So, you know, and then it's basically, it kind of ventured into, you know, as I got older and, you know, back in the day when we draw a tag, and it was pretty easy to draw tags. You know, you'd almost get a deer tag every year and maybe, maybe an elk tag every couple years. And, and granted, we were just doing late tags. I didn't grow up to be a quote unquote trophy hunter. It was more of you go out and you stare at that thing, hoping it grows nubs so you can shoot it.

You know, it's, it's, it's, it's just, that's how I was raised, man. You don't, you don't, you take what you're given. And, you know, you just, so we got a, we got a wall full of, you know, bucks and, you know, not, not necessarily trophies, but in my, my, my, my eyes, they are, you know, and it's just, it's growing up. And that's, that's the way we were raised. And as I got older, I started realizing, man, I don't, I don't got to shoot those small bucks. You know, as I started, got my license and started going out by myself, drawing tags and leaving dad at home and going up and, you know, maybe I'm not going to shoot that little three point, you know, and, and it kind of ventured into that into, you know, really working hard to try to find mature bucks.

And, and I would say about 2008, nine ish, you know, I really started hammering down on the coos and, and, and wanting to try to find giants. So there's, there's, fortunately I live in an area where within 30 minutes I can be looking for giant deer. Um, and so it just went from learning how to glass to, you know, just pounding the hills, putting the boots to the ground. And, and sure enough, man, after many years of being out there, we started turning up some big deer, um, and realizing, you know, Hey, you know, I can put some of these on the ground. So it's kind of what got me into guiding. Well, the problem was, is I was never home. So my wife was like, Hey, you know, you gotta, you gotta relax on the, on the hunt. And I literally go to work and two o'clock, man, I'm like, I got, look at the clock. I got three hours, man. I'm gone. Yeah.

And we, we'd go up, check trail cameras or just get the glass in. And that's kind of what got me into guiding like, all right, well now I can keep the wife happy and say, Hey, look, I made some money actually doing it. So that was just kind of a cop out to, to really just get out in the woods. So you say your wife's happy. That's it. That's it. You know, not many hunters can say that. Not many hunters can say that, but. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, that's what kind of ventured me into the guide side of it. And, and, uh, you know, it's, it's, I've been fortunate to meet some really cool people just guiding hunts and, and being out there. And it's turned into, you know, it's, it's, I do it more for, you know, and I got to the point to where I got so addicted to it, man, that I actually moved my family to, to Payson, which is, you know, an hour North of, of where, uh, where I live now.

And I literally hunted full time. That's what I did. I guided. I was, you know, three and a half, four years up there. And every single day, that's what I did. I mean. What timeframe? Like from what year? What are we talking? Uh, about 2010 to about mid 2013. Oh, wow. It's recent. Yeah. Full time. Yeah. Full time, man. I thought, uh, you know, I back up a little bit. I mean, I've been in the landscape industry for 15 going on 16 years. And so that's kind of what I've done to pay the bills. And, you know, when, when the housing crisis and all that stuff hit Arizona, you know, obviously I felt that. So I started thinking, I do want to keep doing this. Let's try something else. And, you know, I knew I wasn't going to knock a home run being an outfitter, but hey, if I can go up and enjoy the, enjoy the pines and cleaner air and make a little bit of money, let's do it.

So I tried something new and that's wife was on board. And, you know, I was happy as can be because I was going to get to live in the woods, but, you know, it was a cool experience for me. It's pretty humbling because with the, being a guide full time, it's a little different, um, a little different ball game. And not only that is it was more personal for me because it was, I was losing, I felt like I was losing what hunting was about to me, trying to create a business out of it. And it was fun. I love being out there, but after, you know, three and a half, four years. And granted, I've had my guide license since I've been guiding for 10 plus years, but full time, you know, where I just booked as many hunts as I could and was going nonstop and guiding, scouting full time.

I did that, you know, for four and a half, five years, but, you know, it's just, uh, I've kind of scaled it back a little bit and I still take some hunts and do my thing. And, but, you know, not as, not as much as I, uh, did in the past, but, you know, I did for, you know, since I've pounded coos country for a long time, man. And I've, I've walked and walked and walked and, and just put the boots to the ground because with coos deer, man, it's, it's, uh, it's a different ball game than, than, uh, a lot of other animals that people, most people are used to hunting. And then, you know, I just, I got addicted to them and it's a coos craze. And there's a lot of people here being in Arizona that were pretty unique state that, you know, hold coos deer and Mexico. And, you know, and in, in my opinion, uh, Arizona is probably the best, if not the best place to hunt coos deer in the world.

And, and not only that, an hour from where I live. Well, yeah. And you got a lot of, a lot of country that's just, you know, crazy broken up desert, you know, hard to access country. And then some country that's easier and big old coos will live in all of it. I mean, they'll live right off the paved road, you know, and I know you guys have, you guys can, you guys know that better than anybody. I love being out there, man. And we've just been fortunate enough to, you know, do a little bit of homework and hunt with some of the best guys in the industry and have some pretty awesome friends and family that's been out to help me do all this. And, and we've, we've turned up some giants, man, and, and we've killed some giants. And it's just, once you kill one big one, it's like, you know, you start getting addicted, man.

And, you know, passing up bucks that most people would love to, would love to put on the ground. But, you know, as you get older, you can't kill the giants if you shoot the big ones. So, you know, and then, then again, it's, it's, it's gotten to be a very, very competitive, you know, coos deer have gotten to be super competitive here in Arizona, man. It's crazy. You know, Jason and I, we're, we're a little bit more immersed in the mule deer world up here and it's very, very competitive, but, but you're right. Arizona diehard coos deer hunters are, um, intense. They're, they're prepared. They're secretive. It's quiet. Keep stuff. You don't keep, you know, one, one 20, one 30 bucks or, you know, unspoken. And, and, uh, tell us maybe about the first, first big buck you either killed yourself or maybe it was not your first yourself.

Maybe you guided the first client to what you'd call a really big buck. And like you said, how that changed you, um, how these little deer changed you in terms of, all right, I'm, I'm ready to turn it up a notch and get serious about trophy deer instead of just hunting coos deer. All right. Well, actually my, one of my favorite bucks, man, I actually, um, when I first started getting addicted to these little things, man, realizing like, you know, getting a rut hunting is going to be important and stuff like that. So I started putting in for, you know, some of these December tags, well, let alone in units that quote unquote, aren't made to hold big deer. Um, just cause I wanted the tag and I wanted the opportunity. And I knew a little bit of time, you can always turn up a decent buck and you know, any unit, if you do a little bit of homework.

Well, long story short, I drew a December tag, um, you know, in 24 B, which, which is, it's a great unit and you can do a little homework. It's over haunted in my opinion. It's been pounded. I mean, it's, you can find big deer there and people do every year, but I drew that December tag and I killed a, I killed a really nice buck, just broke into the hundreds. And that was the first buck I killed that, that got over that hundred mark. And to this day, I look at that buck on the wall and I mean, I've, you know, I've got a 114 on the wall too. And that basically I'd rather, rather look at that buck, you know, just the memories behind it. That's what really turned the tables for me of really digging in like, cause I've always, you know, just killed the first little bucks. You've seen little forkies, little three points to hold a mature buck in your hand.

You're like, wow, man, they can't get this big. And, and anyways, since then I started, I ventured out of those units and went into, you know, some of the central Arizona units, 23, 22, and taking that same focus onto those units where there is better quality deer, um, less tags. Um, and we started turning up big buck. I finally drew a, uh, I drew a general tag. It was the last year tag I had here. Um, it was an October 22 tag drew that tag and was on a mission to, to, you know, a hundred inches or better. Wasn't going to shoot anything less. And we did a lot of scouting, man. We did a lot of scouting. We turned up some really good bucks, you know, fuzzy antler and, and thinking, Hey man, they're going to be right here when they, when they strip it. Granted, we're still kind of learning this game and learning over this curve of killing big deer.

And we hunted and we hunted and we glassed and we glassed and we turned up bucks, but nothing I thought would go over a hundred inches. Um, and so I was going a hundred inches or I was going home and we got down to the last day of the hunt completely. You know, my cousin Ronnie is actually on the hunt with me, helped me most of the time. And we, we were, we were beat, man. We were done. We were, we were going deep and finally got the point where like, Hey man, let's just go back to our stomping grounds. And, and, you know, where we spent a lot of times of the last years and let's see if we can turn something up. And it was, it was blowing, man. It was, the wind was blowing a hundred miles an hour. We glass got the wind in our face. And I looked at him and I'm like, you done, man. And he's like, yeah, man, I'm, I'm beat.

So we started hiking back to the truck and, you know, granted there's a buck that we've been looking for in there and he was big. So we started hiking back to truck. Okay. I'm like, you know what, man, I'm going to go right over this knob one more time and, uh, see if I can turn him up. And he's like, all right, let's go, man. So we hike over the knob and end of story. Simple as that. I mean, it was literally just that one last extra effort. And believe it or not, I shot the buck at less than a hundred yards. And the buck was moving from, from, you know, the wind picked up was blowing crazy. So I think he'd, you know, picked up and just move into a separate bedding ground. But we were glassing the wrong, where we've seen him in the past. We were glassing the complete opposite direction. And we were bouncing around trying to pick him up and coming back to truck.

You know, I shot him a quarter mile from the truck and shot him at less than a hundred yards, head down, cruising to his bedding grounds. And it was just one of those things. You're just like, really? You know, you do all this leg work. You do all this glass and hours and hours and hours behind the glass. And you pick him up and shoot him at a hundred yards, you know? And it's just that, that, that experience, you know, to me was probably one of the most memorable and, and well-deserving hunts. You know, granted, we've killed bigger bucks with clients and stuff like that. But personally. How big, how big was he? Like what? Well, he just went right over 114. Yeah. Great deer. He's so stud. Typical. Which to me is, is just, and he was a young buck. You know, taxiderms had him at four and a half years, four and a half, five years. And, you know, he's, he's just, he was a potential giant.

But, you know, super wide, tall, everything you dream of and a big typical buck. After you killed this deer, um, and then you started maybe guiding full time somewhat, you know, shortly after that. Tell us about some of the favorite units you got. You mentioned a couple of them, the 22, 23s. Where have you killed some of the better deer with your clients and, and, or family members, things like that. Then maybe we'll get into a little bit about, you know, coos deer. Jason and I have hunted them just a little bit and they're fun little buggers to hunt. But, you know, maybe just, uh, after you tell us about some of the units and some of the big deer, uh, we'll talk about that. Then we'll get into about these little deer and what makes them so intriguing. Okay. Personally, um, this is preference. I, I personally like, like I said, the central units. I like 22 and 23.

Um, not that it's any better than some of the southern units that do hold some big bucks too. But in my opinion, some of the more quality deer come out of those units. Well, I think you spent some time even in 27 or, you know, in some of that country. Yep. Yeah, I have. So it's, it's, it's, it's all good. If you spend enough time there, you're going to turn up bucks. But over the years, there's the quality deer, the, the level of maturity, the stuff that comes out of 22 and 23, more on 22. In my opinion, year after year, you're going to turn up good deer. Now, as it's came down quite a bit, I believe over the years in quality, you know, it, I think it's technologies improve so much. Of these rifles that are thousand yard rifles that people are knocking these things down. Um, and so more deer are getting killed, you know, and it's crazy.

Actually, I was reading this article not too long ago and, you know, Arizona, the game fish put out, I guess there's, you know, it's almost 45% of the deer harvest. Now, you know, last year is coos deer. And, you know, back in the day, I think it was, you know, in the seventies and eighties, it was the 10% range. So I, people are loving, man, loving, loving coos deer and they're getting addicted to it. But 22 and 23, I think, in my opinion, are, you know, to get a general tag, an October tag, or even a November tag with a little bit of homework, you can, you can shoot a nice buck. But it's hard to imagine, like for us, like they're given 400 tags on each of those seasons. You know what I mean? And so for us, we're like, we're thinking, I mean, we're used to dealing in 100 type tags and 20s and 40s. 50s and 25s. Yeah.

And I mean, we're hearing, okay, there's, there's 400 guys, October 27th, November 2nd. There's 400 guys, November 10th to 16th. Those are short seasons, meaning guys are going to hunt those days, not just hunt weekends, you know, like they would maybe on a longer season. Well, that's hard to imagine for us. Maybe they're just road hunters and things like that. But I mean, they're obviously a prolific little critter and probably, you know, there's got to be thousands of them out there. It's just, it's just, but it's just these tag numbers. I mean, I could see why 45% of the kill or take each year in the state comes from coos deer. I mean, it's not, those tag numbers aren't unique to those units. There's many units with tag numbers like that. You know what I mean? Yeah, there, there, there is. And it's crazy that how many people, like you just said, a minute ago, road hunt.

It blows my mind. I can't tell you how many, how many years, I mean, hunts we pulled up to an area that we normally glass. And I'm with the client, right? And we pull up and they're like, hey, there's hunters here. Don't, don't, don't let that bother you. They'll be here for 30 minutes. There's deer on this hill, I promise you. And, and they'll sit there and glass and they'll glass and they'll glass and they'll glass and they'll glass and not see a deer. We'll pull out the tripods and there you go. Here's a buck. Here's a buck. Here's a buck, you know? So, and, and it's just, it's, it's outsmarting them, you know? Yes, you're going to see hunters. It's just, there's no way around it. Even in some of the back country we hunt, you're going to run into hunters. But some of the biggest bucks we've killed, you know, I mean, we killed a buck.

I think you've seen a picture of him, but a buck we called Oscar. I mean, he, he almost broke 130, I mean, 129 and seven, eights. He's a sick deer. He's a sick deer. It is the most impressive buck I've ever put my hands on. It's seriously unbelievable. The frame on this buck. Yeah, 150 type impressive, you know, in your hands. Yeah, if he had any kind of tine length, yeah, he would have been in the 50s. He's just short tined everywhere, but his frame is so impressive. It's incredible. We watched that deer for six years. And it's basically, that buck was killed on a general tag, general October tag. I mean, in, in an area that people drive by every day. I mean, and that buck grew up, grew up in a small little area, man. He grew up in a mile radius area for six years. Yeah. And that's, that's somewhat common about these little deer.

But over those six years, were you hunting him or trying to kill him every year? Or did you not have tags every year? You know, November some year, December some year. I mean, you just, just get lucky and finally figure him out enough in October. Why did you, why did you, why did you let this deer live? That's what I want to know.

Give us a little history. Give us a little history. When we first seen this buck, it was an area that, an area that we wanted to get to for a long time. When I moved to Payson, you know, we started bouncing around, putting the boots to the ground. Finally just threw some, threw a, we threw a camera up in there. And got a picture of a, you know, nice little buck. And then it went from seeing a bunch of tracks in there and picking up a few sheds that got us venturing. This is kind of some flat country, a lot of places of glass. So we just kind of ventured around in there, started seeing more tracks, you know, set up a couple other cameras. And sure enough, here's this buck shows up with, with three other bucks. And we threw it at the time, like, oh, let's try to tree stand on him, you know. And we threw a, threw a tree stand up. I actually shot at him with my bow.

Can't recall the exact year, but it was, I think it was 2012-ish maybe. Shot at him with my bow when he was about a 95-inch buck. And I missed him out of my tree stand. I left my range finder at my cabin and, and stopped by on the way home, sat the tree stand. And sure enough, he came through and I missed him. Thank, thank, thank goodness I did, because look what he turned into. Next year, he just blew up. Blew up, blew up, blew up, blew up, blew up, blew up, got big. Now, it was one of those things where, like, look, we let this deer grow. We'd never seen any other hunters in there. Super safe area. And so we did try to hunt him a little bit here and there, you know, popping up on a weekend. Hey, I'm going to run up, run up and sit Oscar, you know. Archery, most of the time archery then, just over the counter. Most of the time archery, yes.

The reason why, where this buck was kind of flat area, really not a lot of places to glass. Unless he moved one way or the other, there's no way to glass him up. Well, it was a couple years ago. We killed this buck two years ago. So my cousin was up there just kind of, you know, still hunting, walking around, and he kicked him up out of his bed. And I remember calling me like, hey, man, I kicked Oscar up. And it was kind of one of those things. I'm like, really? You know, over there? All right, cool, man. Let's see if we can figure out how to get on him. Well, went up and tried to figure out how to glass. Well, we found one rock pile to glass from that would give us a little tiny window of the vicinity of where this buck was at. And long story short, we picked him up in that area, like, you know, this was in August before the hunt started.

Well, I had a family friend that actually put in for the tag, drew it, and was willing to make the hunt worthwhile for us if he killed the buck. So long story short, we went up, we went in, figured out where he was at, picked him up on the glass, knew he's killable now after all these years. And once you realize where he's at, you're like, you're talking, you know, you start going through your head like, really? Like, why didn't we think of that, you know? And it's just like you constantly learn. But it's like we never thought to go that direction. We've never seen him go that direction. And he was always hitting the camera. Well, he turned pretty nocturnal. You know, as he got mature, we didn't get very many pictures of him during the day. It was all night pictures. And, you know, when he kicked him up, you know, it was, it was, it was, we killed him opening morning at 930.

And, you know, walking up to a buck of that caliber and having, having a history with the deer like that, it's, it's a pretty cool experience. But, you know, like I said, the buck, it was the biggest bodied buck I've ever put my hands on. I mean, the thing was gigantic. I mean, typically a giant, you know, mature buck, it's going to weigh 100, 110 pounds. You know, they stand 30, 32 inches at the shoulder. So this, this thing dwarfed, man, dwarfed the other, any other cruiser I've ever put my hands on. But, you know, he's a giant. But, you know, what's crazy is there's other big deer in there and, and it's just nothing of that caliber. And I don't know if there'll ever be anything of that caliber in there. I've never, we've never really had a track record of, if we find a giant 120 plus buck in an area, there's going to be a lot of them.

You know, and a lot of people say, oh, you got genetics, you got genetics, you got genetics. But I haven't really been able to pattern that in one giant buck the next. You know, we'll find a big buck here that's hanging with some smaller bucks and a big buck here and a big buck there. It's very seldom do you find three or four giant deer running together. Yeah. Well, we'll see. We'll see. You know, mule deer will tend to, you know, generally when we find one, we find one or two, you know, maybe two, you know. But, but I've also got a little dot on a map. I put a little red dot on everywhere. We've killed a, you know, a 200 incher and it's all over. It's not like one area produces. And I think that's kind of what you're getting to on these coos deers. Like maybe wherever Oscar lived, you know, you might have one other one come up.

And even though that's a renewable resource, they're still like, there could be, you know, 140 inch giant 30 miles from there, not just where Oscar lived. And, and Oscar may be one of a kind for that little, you know, five square miles for, you know, 10, 15, 20 years. You might not find another buck like Oscar, even though they're a renewable resource, you know. Yeah. Just not, not every deer is probably like mule deer. Not everybody, not every deer is capable of even getting 190, let alone 200 plus. And I don't know. I don't know coos deer well enough to know, but I suspect that's the same thing. You're not just letting them grow up. It doesn't mean they're going to be 120. That's true, man. We, we watched a buck that was, you know, a two by three, man. And, and he came a giant frame, but he never, he never grew anything extra.

He was just always, you know, from a five-year-old deer to eight or nine, he didn't, never gained an inch. Yeah. You know, he was just always that 100 to 105 inch frame two by three. How are you, how are you seeing drought? Like, do you see drought, big effects on the drought, you know, conditions versus what conditions down there? I mean, do you, did you watch Oscar, you know, up and down, up and down, or was he just always solid? You know, he was very consistent on, on, on gaining, you know, he, he never really lost. He never really, you know, he was always, he always got bigger. And, and like, I, you know, I think drought, drought's a big thing, but with, with where these coos deer live, there's a lot of lakes close by. There's a, they, they'll move, man. Like these people say, you know, you hear a lot, they're not going to move more than a few miles, but I, I don't believe that.

I mean, I've seen certain, certain, like Oscar, for example, where he lived, no matter drought situation, he had water. So it was one of those things that he, he wasn't ever going to leave, but you know, it gets dry, it gets drought. They have to have water. They're going to move where the water is, but it's basically with, I haven't seen a huge regression with him personally as Buck with, with, you know, drought. With drought, obviously you had water close by, but you know, I, I haven't seen anything that I can a hundred percent say, oh yeah, that deer lost five or eight inches, you know, because of a drought year. It's been pretty consistent.

So on these, on these deer, you're saying like they do, you know, you feel like they move, but I think, I mean, is it safe to say like within a year span there, they live in a tight area, but maybe, you know, the following year he could move three or four miles or something if he needed water? Correct. Cause it feels like, I mean, and I, I don't, Adam and I, like I said, scratch the very, very top surface layer of coos deer. But the one thing you, you learn right off the bat from anybody that's, you know, hunted them for quite some time is that they will, you know, you know, summer, shed, rut and everything within a tight area. And is that true? I mean, is that what you find in as well? It's just, if they do need water, they will move. Yes.

In, in, in an essence, they basically some of the, some, like, for example, if you're hunting deer and if you're hunting, like people want to say, Hey, I want to kill a big deer. What are my best chances of killing a big deer? Honestly, I'll tell them to put a knock to put in for an October tag because the December is so unpredictable on where these bucks are going to go to and from. You can't, if you pattern it, for example, we got a, we got a big buck that we've been watching for years. We can't find him in October. We can't find him in August. We've ran cameras everywhere, but come January, this bucks in the same pocket chasing the same does. So who knows where he comes from? Who knows how far he's coming from? But that's a prime example of, of that. But typically. Hunt the season that's closest to wherever you scouted him, whenever you saw him. Yeah. Yeah.

See him in January, hunt January. You see him in October. Exactly. So, so a buck like that, you know, you could get, throw your bow on your back, hike in here and, and probably chase this bow, this buck around for a few days and maybe get a shot at him. They're hard to spot stock. And, and the, the thing about it, like in August, you know, when they start growing, pretty predictable, you know, you, you can almost go to the same hillside at the same time every single day and see the same bucks when they're fuzzy antlered. They're good. They're going to be there. As soon as they start stripping, they, they're going to move a little bit and maybe mile, two miles, three miles. Who knows? But three miles in our country is a long ways. Yeah. And, and so when people say, oh, they're predictable, they're there, they're there. Well, if you've got them, they're hard horned in October.

Like if you pick up bucks in October, hard horn, there's a good chance, 50% chance they're going to be on that same hill or close by when the hunt comes around. But the hunting pressure right now is crazy. Like last year, I decided not to, I only took on two clients last year and we had a bunch of family and friend tags and we went seven for eight tags. Um, but we weren't, like I said, we weren't quote unquote trophy herning. We were killing 90 inch deer, you know, and you know, some, some first timers, you know, 10 year olds that didn't have tags in the family got their first bucks, you know, and stuff like that. But it was, it was, so some of these bucks that we did prior to scouting in August where we've had piles of bucks, nowhere to be found come October. I mean, we pound them. We got the best optics in the business, man.

And then, you know, I believe I'm pretty decent glasser and I've got a bunch of guys that with me are just incredible glassers and we pound the hills and it's just, who knows? I'm still trying to figure these little things out on what exactly they do do. Now I do know this, they will be back that next summer. You will find them in the same areas. They are in the vicinity. They are in that area. It's just a matter. It's not like they're moving like an elk 10 or 15, 20 miles. You know, once they start stripping velvet, it's, they're going to be close by. Yes. But I don't think, you know, they live in, like I said, how does that one mile, two mile radius? Now Oscar, that was an exception. That buck did not leave within a mile radius his entire life. I mean, he was there year round. Wow. That's crazy.

Might have just been the area that he was in, but I hear, you know, like guys that hunt that January archery. I mean, it's a blast. I mean, I've, I've heard it's just a freaking blast. Like those bucks are rutting, but they rut hard and aggressive and they're running everywhere. And, you know, I think that would be tough if you're a trophy hunter looking for one particular deer. Like what's the chances you're going to come run them by you? Where you go to make a stock on him and he's moved and moved, you know, and you're having to move with him. And I just think it'd be, it'd be hard. It'd probably be fun, but I think it'd be hard as a trophy hunter, you know. It's extremely hard. Versus that August. I mean, that August seems like, you know, if you're doing your work, you're willing to do 110 degrees. Yeah. And you pattern a buck. Yeah. Just like we do Milder. Yep. You know. Yeah.

And in August, they're almost like clockwork. You can almost. So, I mean, I was looking the other night. It's crazy. I have over 50,000 pictures of just coos deer and basically all organized on every buck named when they hit water. I mean, we got to the point where we were, we were really trying to figure out these deer. And most mature bucks, when I say mature bucks, you know, 80 inch plus deer are hitting that water between 11 and two. And midday in the summers, and sometimes, you know, they'll hit them a couple times depending on how hot the days are. But they're pretty predictable. So, if you can sit and, you know, take on that heat, it's miserable. People call and they want to hunt. I mean, you can, if you get into the higher country, you can sit some tree stands and do some of the pines and stuff like that. You know, it's a little bit, it's a little nicer.

But it's still, man, some of these ground blinds, you got to sit on these water holes. They'll just kill you. So, is that what you're doing? Is that the most effective way to kill this deer? Yeah, in August, you can spot and stock them too. But you obviously can do that any time of the year. But, yeah, sit and water, man. They got to get water. So, just sit, man. You got to sit and make sure the situation's right. But it's just, here's the issue. And it's been every single year for whatever reason it may be. But it seems like you got them figured out, man. You're like, all right, we're going to knock this buck down. Like, we had a big buck. I can't remember what year it was. But I'd say, you know, when I was living in Payson, probably 11, 12, that we had three different bucks that were pushing the 130 mark.

It was one of those years that was like, wow, man, we got giant buck after giant buck. And we were putting a game plan together. Like, all right, you're going to hunt this buck. You're going to hunt this buck. I'm going to hunt this buck. And literally come two days before the season opens, they stop coming. And it's funny, you talk to anybody in Arizona, they'll tell you the same story for whatever reason it may be. But they'll come, but it's not like clockwork. I mean, we had a buck that we called Lobster that unfortunately got killed on terms that we didn't wish. But he's an amazing, that was an amazing deer. Yeah, that buck was like, I would say the first buck that we could say was over 130 that we were, I mean, it's sad. You watch the video of like the night before, like my cousin was going to be the shooter the first day.

So I'm like, all right, man, we're going to, and the way we worked was just, we're happy for each other. It didn't matter who killed the buck, man. It was a huge team effort on all this stuff. And, you know, there's a lot of, I had an awesome team, man. We really put the boots to work and, and really turned up, figured out these coos deer and turned up these giant deer. And we finally, like, do we got a giant, this thing is just gigantic. So we've, do we literally, I would put the camera up, you know, or go check the film. I'd go home. I couldn't last two days. I gotta go check it. I gotta go check it. You know, we'd check the camera. All right, he's back. He's back. And we had him figured out, like, he's going to come in. He was hitting some mornings around nine and, and, and then you come in a couple, you know, between that 11 and two ish every single day.

So we're like, are you going to kill a giant tomorrow? We went in back a week before, set up, brushed in the ground blind, everything good to go. Opening morning, sitting there. No, never showed up. Never showed up. Never showed up. Never showed up. It was just a bummer, man. And then we sat there for four days, man. Like, what did we do wrong? We yanked the tree stand or drank the ground blind, went to tree stands. And, you know, anyways, that buck got away from us. And then, you know, we turned up some other big ones and kind of in the same area and all in August. And they're, they're typically pretty easy to find in August. As soon as they drop what you're doing right now, um, they're, they're going to start wanting salt, man. They're going to pound salt. And once they get to the, you know, that last, last 10, 12 days of horn growth, they literally are pounding salt.

They'll hit salt spots three or four or five times a day. Um, you know, so if does. Typically. And it's legal to use. It's legal to use. It's all I know. Right. I mean, of course you guys, I mean, not you guys, but I mean, hunters in general, you know, back when it was legal to bait, you work with corn heavily, just like kind of would a whitetail back East. And those guys, you know, they still, you know, bait in a lot of the States back East and whatnot. And it seemed like that was, you know, kind of a big factor, you know, for success on some of these big deer too. Yeah. And I was actually a big fan of the, of the, of the, the bait banning. And I mean, it was, it was, it, Jason, it got so bad. Like, I'm not kidding you, man. You would, you couldn't go to any feed store, any like Walmart, anything anywhere near any country where there's cruise deer and buy a bag of corn. Oh yeah.

People were taking corn off the tables, off their kid's plate to take it out and feed deer probably. A hundred percent, man. And, and, and you would go and you would go and, I mean, granted we used it. Why not? You know, everybody used it, but it was like, it got to the point where you couldn't even, you'd walk, you'd sit on your spot for, you know, three or four days. And then wonder why nothing's coming in. You just do a little loop around your spot. Find an electric corn feeders. You know, every time the little motor went on, the deer come running. Yeah. I was like, I mean, it, it, it got bad. So, but like I said, man, it's technically, if I go back to all the years of doing this stuff, getting cruise deer on the ground, it's all in the glass, man. Doing, it's glassing. Yeah. It's glassing, man.

I mean, I, you get, if we get a buck, we physically see a deer on the hill, you know, it's a good chance that deer's going to die. So I went, when I hunted with you guys, I know we, you know, you guys, I mean, we're turning up deer, just like you're saying, 11, 12. I mean, just sit there and grind it, you know, all day. And of course that was an October season and which I know you said was, you know, an awesome timeframe. Of course I got my butt handed to me, but anyway, we won't talk about that too much other than that particular year. Or, uh, I know Ty kind of blamed it, felt like you kind of blamed it, you know, on the, on the crop of pine nuts and whatnot. I mean, what's your theory on that? Like where they just keeps them in that thick tree, all those thick trees and stuff. No. Yeah. There's a lot, there's a lot of truth to that.

And I think we were kind of fighting the moon phase too there where, you know, they're, they're feeding all night. So you throw that and you, and you throw the pine nuts into the mix of it, man, it can turn into be a, turn into be a rough hunt. That was kind of what happened to me and on my hunt, man, in 2010, when I killed my big buck, it was the same thing, man. I kind of fought that same kind of stuff where moon phase was, was not in my favor and there's no movement. And it was just tough, man. And we ended up, you know, except picking my buck up, just kind of cruising through and going from point A to point B to glass and jumped him up. But yeah, that's, that's, that's huge, man. Like it's, it's one of those things as a, you know, a guide or a hunter, man, you can't predict that kind of stuff.

And you got to try to, you know, let alone we were, we were hunting some particular bucks with you hoping we could turn them up, you know? Yeah. And, and, you know, it's just, uh, yeah, it's, it's, there's a lot of truth to that. And you get that and throw a moon phase into it and, you know, any hunt can turn, turn rough for sure. When you, uh, when you guys are after these deer, you know what I mean? You talked about Oscar going after him for six years. I don't know if he cross-sections his tooth or whatever when he was killed to know how old he was, but what is your general thoughts on where, where a buck needs to be in most cases to reach, reach what he's capable of really being? So basically Oscar was nine and a half years old. Wow. Yeah. He was, he was one of the oldest bucks that, that, you know, one of the taxiderms there that we deal with says he's ever taken it.

Um, and, but typically I would say six to seven years old. Yeah. You know, not a whole lot different than mule deer really. Yeah. You know, they're going to reach the maturity. Sweet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's, that's where I would guess. But yeah, Oscar was an old deer, man. He was just a, you know, he lived his, he lived a good life for sure. You know? Yeah. So what other, I mean, we've talked a lot about coos, which I know I can tell, you know, you're pretty passionate about. Do you, do you, do you get much after anything else down there? You're saying you want a big mule deer and you're, you're 10 years into the wait or eight years or whatever. Uh, but do you, what else do you get after down there in Arizona? Do you chase elk a little bit or? I do, man. I got a, I got a pretty deep passion for elk too.

And that's actually, you know, I addicted to that before I got into coos there and I'm still addicted to elk hunting. But yeah, I'm a little different, man, than most guys. I don't, I, I. You got an addictive, you got an addictive personality.

Yeah, I do, man. You're addicted to everything. Yeah. So yeah, we'll dive into some of that. You're in those same units, course 23, you know, especially so well known for giant bulls. I mean, you got some big bulls found or you still spending time and. Yeah, I haven't dabbed much in 23 over the last couple of years. Um, like I said, I've really, honestly, the last few years I've really been focusing on, on business, man. I'm, I'm just trying to get the business back up and roll where it needs to be. So I can get out in the woods and play a little bit more, but I've, uh, you know, I haven't been in 23 much, um, in the last couple of years. But that being said, in my eyes, I still put him for that hunt every single year. I put him for 23 early archery, 15 tags, probably not going to drop for the next 10 or 15 years, but Hey, you know, you do it.

And I, I finally bit the bullet and, and, and drew a, drew a tag this year. I did point guard it. So I may be giving it back. I don't know yet, but I, I just off of one big bull that I found. Um, and so hopefully, hopefully that'll pan out for me this year, but I do, I do like to guide elk, man. I love hunting elk. I like to turn up giants and units are quote unquote, not known for having giants in them. And, and, uh, you know, I don't spend much time in like nine and 10 and those kinds of units. Um, as much as, as much as most outfitters do. I know them. Yeah. We kill big bulls there, of course, but you know, I like to, I like to stick with the central Arizona units on elk as well. You know, 22, 23. Hard to fight those, you know, all the people on water holes up there in nine, some of that country.

It's just tough, you know, dealing with that where you guys are kind of down there glassing and, and working hard. And you know what I mean? You're not so, you know, you know, competing per se on, on water holes and whatnot. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's wild, man. Cause I, you, you know, if you've ever hunted nine or been in that country during an archery hunt, man, you'll roll up on a, every water hole, every trick tank, every seat has got 10 or 15 cameras on it. Yeah. You know, and it's like, really? I mean, it gets to the point where it's like, you know, sometimes it's, I mean, not, not that it's an issue. It's just, I would rather go and stay in the same country where I can go and hunt my own bulls and say own bulls. I'm sure people know about them too, but every bull's got a name. It's like on the strip, man. Every buck's got a name. Everybody knows the big bucks in the strip.

Most people know the big bulls in nine and 10. There's not very many secrets. Yeah. But yeah, you're wanting to, you're wanting to have, have them carry your name and maybe only you know about them, you know, instead of just some name that a random outfitter, you know, named and everybody knows him. So. Yeah. So, I mean, I always dab in, you know, in the areas that, you know, like this, you know, for example, it's bull that I found a, this actually hunting coos deer. I found him. And I was wondering if you were going to bring him up. You're not going to tell everybody where he's at, are you? What's that? We're on the air. You can't tell everybody where he's at. No, I'm sorry. I'm not worried about it, man. But, but yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's good stuff, man. And I, I've, I've, I burned my elk points on that tag, you know, this year. And I think, I think it'll pan out for me, man.

But it's just one of those things. It's, it's, I liked it. I, I've always been known for digging up stuff in units that quote unquote are known for giant, giant bulls or bucks or whatever that may be. Well, and I think in large part, you know, that's probably why you're finding some of those giants is, you know, is, and we're doing that. So to speak on some of our, I know Adam's got a few big deer that he probably doesn't want people to know about on some general stuff. And, and yeah. Okay. And, and, uh, I've got the same, you know, I've killed one of, one of my biggest deer, uh, in period. One of my biggest all time deer was on a general unit and killed his buddy too. And he was over 220. And so, um, you know, I think what's happened and I, I've thought about it a lot. And I think what's happened, we got big genetics.

We're not necessarily managing for it, but because we're not managing for it, you don't have, you know, multiple outfitters with big teams. And spending the real time and resources on, on general areas are easier to draw areas. And so you end up, uh, you get enough, you get a few deer that make it through and end up in that six to nine year old category. And you get a tag every year. Yeah. And you can hunt them back to back years, which sometimes, you know, like you're, you're hunting Oscar, what, six years. I mean, you know, and I don't know, you know, as far as lobster, how many years you hunted him, but, um, you know, some of these bucks and bulls and rams and whatever take multiple, multiple years to get them down on the ground. Yeah, it does, man. And it's, it's, it's pretty rewarding when you, you know, you do the leg work and bust your butt trying to find them.

And you do get one on the ground, man. It's just that much more, uh, rewarding. But it's like I said, it's, you don't want to, I don't want to go up and compete with, you know, you know, certain deer and certain bucks and let all do it if I need to, or if I have to draw that tag. But to me, it's just kind of ruined hunting a little bit, man. I like to name my own deer myself, just so when I'm talking, you know, me and my hunt partners and buddies, you know, Hey, remember that deer, but it's easier just to say a name, but you know, and so we do our own thing. And honestly, in a nutshell, really, we really don't run into too many people where we hunt, to be honest. Even with 400 tags. I mean, you're just, even with 400 tags, man, I read, you're going to see them. But if we're going to an area looking for a particular buck, you know, you're going to be hunters glassing along the way.

There's going to be people looking, but it just, when you experience, man, it blows your mind. How many people just look past stuff, man, and don't glass a little bit harder. Because I mean, for example, I mean, there was a buck that I sent a buddy on that, you know, he was looking for a buck last year. And I wanted a nice buck and it was an area that, you know, I couldn't get the kids into, or even my client didn't want to make the hike. And so I sent him in there. I said, Hey, dude, we've seen a good deer in here in August. I said, he's going to be in here somewhere. Just keep pounding it, bounce around in here. And he ended up, he ended up killing the buck, but it was, he glassed for seven days straight, literally seven days, the entire hunt killed him on the last day. And the buck popped up right where we seen him in August.

So, you know, it's just, he wasn't happy to be there at the time and he kept glass and maybe he wasn't picking them up. But it's just, you know, a lot of these deers, especially coos deer, you know, they may be in, they may be in a, maybe in a particular spot in August, but come October, November, they'll still be around, but maybe not on the same hill or just over the ridge a little bit. And, you know, that there's another buck that we had watched for years that we should have on the wall or should have killed with the client. And if we didn't, it was just us not thinking out, thinking a little bit deeper, but it was, you know, it was another auction buck that was killed that pushed into the 140s. And, and I got, we got trail cam pictures of that buck when he was a hundred inch deer. Um, another thing, he was a nocturnal buck. We couldn't figure him out.

He, he'd come to the days, just kind of hit and miss. Um, and was ended up killing with, killed with an, with an auction hunter, which was literally the way the birds would fly, probably less than a thousand yards from where our spot was. Um, and yeah, he broke into the forties and we got picture after picture of that buck. So, you know, it's just speaking of, speaking of pictures, you know, what's the deal with this trail cam law? I mean, have you been, you know, is it, is it, uh, would it affect you guys if, if anything like that passed or went through? You know, I'm, I'm not for it to be honest, but, but you know, what happens happens and we'll adapt. But, but honestly, there, most of the big deer we've killed, I mean, Oscar, granted, we have trail cam pictures of him and the reason why we knew him was in there was because of trail cameras, because it's flat country.

But, but a lot of these. Salt or whatever, maybe, maybe you're not on water as much. Yeah, exactly. And, and basically it's, it's a lot of these, I mean, with the, with the whole trail cam issue, I don't think, uh, it's really going to affect, you know, our success. Just because most of these deer we're killing, we are glassing them up. Um, you know, and, and I've really, really turned away from a lot of cameras. I used to run a ton of cameras, man. I may run, I may run 10, 15 cameras a year now compared to 30 or 40 or 50. So it's, and we're still, it's not like the qualities came down as success rates have came down. We're still killing good deer. It's just, I like the, yeah. I mean, I like the glass, man.

And, and honestly, I mean, you, especially like in, you know, when you get closer to these hunts, some of these areas that do continue to hold mature bucks, you even got some spots in 22 and 23 where you'll show up and there'll be five or six cameras on them. But that's that many more people going in there, walking around the water hole, checking their, checking their film. The deer's going to live. Yeah, the deer's going to live. The more people are in there, the tougher it is to kill them. No, and that's, and that's, I think that's kind of what they're, what they're trying to push. But I think it's super important for some areas, you know, I don't know if I think they just need to figure out a, you know, a happy median somewhere and, and instead of banning them completely, if they're going to do it, maybe do a season on them or what they may decide to do. Yeah.

But I'm not really stressing it, man. I don't think it's really going to be a big issue on, on, uh, because really the reality of it is the trail cam stuff was, was just, it was fun, man. It was like Christmas. Oh, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's unbelievable. When you're, when you're going in checking cameras, you're like, all right, all right, what's on this one, what's on this one? Yeah. Then you go through and you're, then you got the camera, you know, letting your buddy look and you're standing over here going, through the, through the film and you're like, I wait till you see this, dude. Show it to me. Yeah. You know? Oh yeah. Let it, you know, he's got, he had a key to your cameras, already checked the card. Yeah, exactly. No, that's good. Well, what about long range rifles? I know you brought up, uh, that you guys have long ranged a few of them, which is natural.

Most, most guys are doing, but it feels like to me for coos deer hunting, long range has made a huge difference, you know, cause those little coos deer, I mean, they live in thick country and, and, uh, they, they don't even hardly crest the top of a sagebrush. Yeah. You don't have time to close the distance three to 400 more yards or else they're going to be back in the brush. You got to take care of business now. Yeah. Yeah. And that, and that's, what's crazy. What I, what I've noticed when, with, with coos deer is like, especially in December, like we were talking about December a little while ago. And another reason, dude, they're on the prowl nonstop. You pick up bucks in December, man, unless they're bedded, as soon as they stand up, they don't stop. They're walking. Like they, they're just cruising, winging and winding everywhere up on the hill.

So trying to get a hunter on something that's moving in five, six, seven, 800 yards, it's tough. Yeah. And when people call to hunt with me, the first thing I say is what kind of rifle you got? I mean, are you, are you good past 500? Cause realistically most shots are around that range. Yeah. You know, I very seldom, we killed a buck under, you know, rather than mine. You kill under 300 yards. I mean, yes, it can happen, but you know, typically you glass up a buck. This country we're glassing is big and you'll find a buck and you'll glass them up in the Cowboys or something that you'll mile away. And you're like, all right, when you get closer, you know, and then you spend half the day getting up in there and then, all right, it's close. We're going to get it's 500 yards, 800 yards. And they got to be able to make it count long range long.

I think that's why, you know, the caliber of bucks have been getting killed and quality has came up a little bit and you're seeing bigger bucks hit the dirt. It's the technology, man. And technology just came a long ways and having the long range rifle for coos deer hunting is a necessity. You know, I mean, you don't have to have a rifle that's going to shoot a thousand yards, but you got something you can dial up to six, seven, 800 yards and pull the trigger and you know, it's dumping over it. It's it's a, you know, that was a big thing with, with Oscar and the guy that killed him. I told him, I said, man, you better, you better get to shoot. And it's going to be a 750 yard shot. And you, you, the, the window's small with this man, the window is small. If he crests where he should crest, you're going to have a few seconds to make a shot before he drops back into this cut.

And he was literally living on this nasty, nasty hillside, which is come over and keep cresting one opening. And that's where he was going to get a shot. Um, but he made it count, but yeah, it's a, it's a necessity. I mean, Jason, you've seen some of the stuff we're looking at 23. I mean, if you know those bucks you wanted to shoot, they would have been 800 plus yards away. Oh yeah. I had the gun set up while we were glass. We hadn't even glassed them up yet, you know, but you got to have it like, you don't have time to, you know, so basically just get it where you feel like if he comes in that a hundred yard area or two or 300 yard area, I can easily get behind the gun and kill him in six or eight seconds. And that's just, that's just crazy. It's crazy country. It's like that. You got to be ready. You got to be good with your gun. Yeah, it is. It's super important, man.

And you get this a lot of these people like, yeah, yeah, I got to just bought a gun or I just had a gun built and you know, you know, you always tell them once, you know, if you practice with it yet, cause man, any gun can shoot that range, but you got to know your gun, man. You got to know the capabilities of it. You got to adjust to, you know, your windage, you know, for situations because, you know, a lot of guys, man, well, man, they said it was shoot. I've had guys miss, I mean, Jay, some of the, I'm sure you've dealt with the two of your, when you're guiding and stuff, it's some of the biggest bucks I've personally physically seen with my own eyes. I've watched walk over the hill with a client because they've shot seven or eight or 10 times and missed them. You know, after busting your butt to get up the side of this huge mountain or getting

into this area and it's just, it's sickening, you know, and it happens, it's hunting. It's just, it is what it is. Oh yeah. When that happens, you want to just go and pale yourself on a green T-post somewhere. You work all year, you're working on a specific buck and, and you end up watching him walk over the hill. It's just such a downer. Yeah. And I, I, I mean, it happened pretty recent, you know, where we had, I had two bucks and, and one of them should probably kill me for saying it, but one of them, my wife actually missed. Oh, well, good luck. You know, you did have a happy wife. You did have a happy wife. It was the same year that we killed Oscar. Let's dive into all the mistakes she made. Let's do it. Let's do it. But, but, but no, it was the same year she, she, uh, we had killed Oscar and she actually had a tag and we put Oscar on the ground and I called her.

And I'm like, Hey, come, we actually had two clients that year. Um, it was my, the guy that killed Oscar and his friend actually drew a tag too, but he wasn't after anything big and he ended up killing a really nice buck too. But we, uh, um, I asked, he was a family friend. I'm like, Hey, my wife's got a day to hunt. You mind if I take her out? You know, cousin can still take, take the other dude out. Yeah, no problem. So she comes up and there's one buck that I wanted her to hunt. And my brother bet, if you've been up there hunting with his, with his son and they'd been looking and he said, man, we've been in that area, man, there's a ton of hunters in there. And I'm a hundred on every point glass in. And I'm like, he's in there. No long story short, we go in there with my brother and, and, um, and my wife and his little boy. And, and sure enough, man, I mean, same knob.

We were walking up the glass. People were coming down, you know, like, what's up guys? How you doing? We get up there, right at, right at, I mean, right at dark. I mean, just 15 minutes left to shooting light. A buck comes out right from below us, starts feeding up the hillside. But so anyways, it wasn't her fault. We're back to the gun problem. We just had a gun worked on and, uh, and it just didn't get dialed right, man. And it was, she just air balled a couple of times, man, and watched a, you know, a giant walk away, but that buck's still alive and he's, he's still out there. And, you know, people miss them, man. It's just, people don't find them. They sit there in glass all day. They don't see anything. They leave or glass for a couple hours. They don't see anything. They leave. Has she killed one? I mean, she got a specific goal. Is she just, uh, shoot what you tell them to or what?

Yeah, pretty much shoot what I tell her to. That's a good wife doing what you say. Yeah. She, she pretty much will shoot what I tell her to. So, but no, she's killed some bucks. She, she wants to kill, she wants to kill a big one. So, the problem is, is like, and that's, this was back to us telling you earlier. It was just to the point where I was guiding so much. I couldn't spend that time on personal tags or tags with my wife. She would draw tag, cruise tag almost every single year. And then not even get to go because I was guiding hunts. Yeah. You know, so. We've been there, done that. Now you got kids and little girl, three little girls and your life gets busy. New business or at least, you know. Reviving. I was cranking on the old one and speaking of that, like you, you, you're talking about, you know, kind of giving up coos deer for a mule deer, but this one, you're going for

one tag. I mean, you know, you're going to have to kind of quit your job and basically hunt state to state if you get on this mule deer kick. Like one, one Northern Arizona deer tag is not going to cut it. I know. That's what I'm, that's what I'm worried about, man. Like I said, I, I, I love coos deer and I'll kill them. But man, I'm, I mean, I've been on the strip. I've helped guided hunts on the strip. We've killed big deer. I mean, I've helped 230, 240 inch deer, but you know, it's, it's, I've never killed one person in myself. You know, I haven't, you know, my, my biggest buck I killed on the, on the, when I was 13 years old, I drew the late kind of 1280s tag, not knowing what I had, you know, I killed 165 inch four by four and thought I killed the biggest buck in the woods, you know, and, and not knowing what I had.

Me and my dad and brother all had the tag, but I was young and it was, it was awesome. That's the last mule deer I ever killed. Last mule deer tag I ever had. Wow. I've chased some big mule deer, you know, up around my cabin, which is, you know, up in the happy Jack area and, and you know, some giant, I've sent you some pictures of some of them, Jason. I mean, those bucks are 200 inches plus and, and I've, I've tried to chase them around with my bow, try to figure them out, man. They're impossible. I mean, I just can't figure those things out. Crazy. And you know, you, you'll sit and sit and sit and maybe they come through, they may not. So, I mean, I've, like I said, I've dabbed a little bit, but I'm on a mission. Well, you'll do it. You'll, you'll do it. You're just going to have to spend the kind of time you did a few years ago on these coups deer. They just, it's like anything.

And like, I've thought about, you know, I want to kill some giant bulls. I mean, I've got a few goals that are pretty much unattainable, but, uh, you know, to work on them, you've got to give up. You can't have three or four addictions. You've got to, you know, to really kill the very, very top end, unless you just flat get lucky, which does happen a fair occasion, but. I tell people all the time, I'll take luck over skill any day, man. That's right. And so, yeah, you still turkey hunt a little bit? I know you mentioned the San Carlos. I hunted the San Carlos for turkeys clear back when I was a little tiny kid, killed the biggest cowboy I've ever killed down there. But, but anyway, uh, you still hunt turkeys or are you done with that? No, I do. I mean, I want anything I can get a tag for, but actually my wife and I actually have turkey tags right now.

So we got, we got spring tags up the cabin. So, you know, we, we may dab into that a little bit, you know, here the next, next week and it goes for like three weeks, but, but yeah, no, we, we, we spend, we, we spend as much time as we can. I mean, that's not something I like a huge passion to go hunt turkey, but I put in for it every year. And if I draw tags, we go and we get her done. But, you know, it's just kind of one of those, one of those things. That's awesome. Well, sure. Appreciate you, man. Wish you the best of luck in all you're doing. You and the girls. It's awesome. I've got a lot of respect for you. Of course, spent a little time with you in camp. Learned a lot from you. So anyway, I can tell your passion. I know you've dealt with a lot of the different auction tags over the course of time.

And as far as those coos deer, I know you're super passionate and got a healthy respect for those coos deer. So anyway, thanks for taking time with us. And we'll go from there. All right, Jason. Thanks, man. See you later, Adam. See you later. Thanks. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.