EP 298: A Double Dose of Huge Bucks, Iowa Whitetail and New Mexico Mule Deer

Anything to do with Western Big Game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast.

Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson, and Logan coming at you from Southern Utah. Kind of a dry, dry Utah right now, Bronson. Okay, so, alright, are you okay, first off? Because we'll stop everything. It is dry. We're having what we call the podcast snacks from the backpack logistics box. Got some podcasts. I've got a honey stinger I'm chewing on. Bronson's mixing a drink over there, something that was randomly thrown in by Whitworth. Gonna find out later. It's pretty good. We'll see if I've had it twice. Alright, well, this podcast is powered by Epic Outdoors. That's us. We have a publication. Comes out once a month during the draw season, application season. It's December through June, monthly, bi-monthly when we're out in the field hunting. Nine issues a year, $150 a year. Go to epicoutdoors.com to check it out.

Also, we sell optics and we also have a licensed application service where we'll take care of all your applications for an additional fee. We also sell hunts, sell land on tags, things like that. Anything Western Big Game. That's what we do here at Epic Outdoors. Anyway, we promised you, Bronson, we promised them we'd come out with more podcasts. And that's what we're doing. Got another one. This is the second one this week. Can you believe it? Logan, you've been trying to get us in here, but we've been kind of avoiding. We made it work. Yeah. All right. So this particular podcast, Bronson, we kind of got through the formalities of our Muleys Matter initiative, movement, whatever you want to call it. And we're kind of in the throes. We're actually consulting on a daily basis when it comes to, like, especially Wyoming elk, kind of like Colorado mule deer.

It's quite a grind from now until January 31st. So we're grinding away, helping people with their application strategies, whether we apply you or not. If you're a member, we'll help you out. And that's what we're doing on the daily right now. That's right. It's about to kick off hard. Of course, we're all getting ready for a Christmas holiday with family, friends, and all that. I hope you all are, too. I hope you're probably some of you listening to this over Christmas. But we're back a few days after Christmas, and it's going to get kicking off here real quick once January 1st hits. And, again, Wyoming elk, Arizona will be opening up shortly after there for elk and antelope. And here we go. It's pretty awesome. We're excited for 2024.

Now, a lot of our podcasts, we're kind of, you can tell we're, you know, a little bit of frustration coming off the heels of a drought, winter kill, things like that. But, you know, you can tell at times we're a little bit frustrated. But every single year, Bronson, we should talk about this a little bit. We had the most amazing application strategy known to man by February 1st of this year. There's never been a better year, never been more moisture. We had plans. We had points. We had tags purchased. We had hunts booked. And now it's like I chose everything wrong, and I'm ready to do everything right for 2024. I even wrote about that in my January magazine, like soapbox, that I thought every year when I get done, my application plans and strategy, I think, I've got it nailed. This is going to be unbelievable. And you don't want to do a single one of those things. Maybe one, right?

But maybe a do-over. Two-thirds of those I'd never want to do again. Ever. Ever. And I haven't. I've stopped a couple of the OTC options for this year. You tried to get me to do Idaho, and I was over it. In fact, even Wyatt got in the queue and says, here you go, Carter. I didn't try. I was shocked that you didn't. I lost money betting the crew. I says, when Jason gets here, I got $20. He's on the queue. Yeah, you lost money. And you didn't. I didn't even think about it. Yeah. I actually did. I went and logged in. Wyatt says, okay, I'm up. I went over, I logged in, and I looked at the three options left, and it made my decision easy. That's kind of where it was at. You know what I mean? Yeah. I am a sucker. One of them was the statewide whitetail. Yeah. Okay. Right. That was what you agreed. Well, I am a sucker when it comes to tag procurement. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Well, that's what I was talking about. Yeah. Was that you can't resist. No. But you did. I did. But I am sick of funding the state of Idaho on my own. Okay? I had women and children left and right that I had purchased OTC tags for. And we had big plans last year. And we had big plans. All of which I ate. All of them. You know? And I didn't do the OTC Arizona. Actually, probably my best option for me personally. Well, just closer. Maybe you shoot one of the. A little more flexible time, maybe. Maybe you shoot one of the miniature whitetails. You know what I mean? Or whatever. I don't know. So, anyway, I was just. Yeah. So, I did everything wrong. Everything wrong. With the exception of whitetail. How about that? Yeah. You know? Well, we're going to talk about that a little bit today. We can talk about that. And you've kind of. I don't know. So, my plans. Let's talk about your plans.

You want to go first? You can talk about some of your plans. For 24? Yeah. Just some of the things that you're thinking about. I know you've got a hunt that you want, actually. That's my big one this year. I'm heading to Northwest Territories. End of July. First 10 or so 12 days of August. Hunting doll sheep and mountain caribou. The mountain caribou was actually an add-on. Yeah. Well, I won a doll sheep hunt. If you guys think that. There's no winners out there. Bronson's a winner. Chicken dinner. That's right. Dude, you won that. You won the raffle in New Mexico. You've won super tags up there in Idaho. Well, haven't you won? Won super tag. Okay. Tags. Okay. Tag. Tag. Tag. But, no. This was a, like many of y'all that live out west, you probably have a state chapter of sheep, wild sheep foundation type chapter or affiliate.

Ours is Utah Wild Sheep Foundation, and we have a banquet every year in Utah. They give away a doll sheep hunt away every year at that event, and you have to be present. You've been there. I've been there. I watched you. The last probably 20 years. I participated. Yeah. I think, I don't know. Were you there then? I don't remember. I remember. Were you there? Oh, yeah. I was there. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you know what you mean? I wasn't even listening when they called my name. I was just visiting. Well, that, I think, goes in part to say- You just go there to support these things. You support them, and you apply for everything. That's right. You're there. You're there. You're having a good time. You take your wife to dinner, and lo and behold, your life changes. Calling it family time. Right? Calling it family time. Calling it dating. Putting it on the calendar. Putting it on.

Took Becky out to a date. Drove clear across the state. St. George. George. Yeah. Warm country. In the spring. Warm. Warm environment where she would want to go. Anyway. So, that was clear back in, like, 2021, I believe. But that hunt's coming up in 2024. So, I had the doll sheep hunt part of it. So, yeah. I'm going to add five days to my hunt and make it a 15-day hunt and kill a caribou. Maybe even take a friend. Yeah. I think so. Phone to friend. That's right. That's pretty awesome. So, with that, that's kind of an early season. That takes care of the anxiety to get out in the field early. Normally, it's archery deer in Nevada. It's a big one. And it's all, you know, and what it is also doing is making me want to stay in better shape all winter long. Yeah. Because July 25th is going to be here before you know it. And we are cooped up in here until early June.

You can't start training in early June for a July 25th backpack hunt for 15 days. I remember. So, the old Bronson. I want to talk about the old Bronson. Okay. And so, that guy's gone. Okay. Okay. So, way back when. Say 15 years ago. My dad used to say, I'm going to book this hunt and it helps me keep in shape. And we looked at him like, really? Really? Yeah. And, I mean, kind of hashtag spoiled. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, Bronson. Here we are. I'm doing the same thing. There's hunts that I'm doing. I'm like, okay, I need to get in shape for this. Like, this is no joke. Whatever. You're doing it. You've obviously got probably the most aggressive hunt of either of us, for sure, coming up. And so, anyway. And you said it like an old man would. Yeah. I'm getting old. I'm not saying you're getting old. You just said it like an old man would. Is I booked this hunt, man.

I'm most excited about the opportunity to stay in shape. Well. Right. I didn't. Yeah. I mean, it's a motivator. And a lot of the hunts that we do throughout the year are in, say, call them heavy late August, September, October. And your scouting for them gets you in shape. Yeah. This is not the case. No. I have to show up being in the best shape I'm going to be in for the year. The only hope you have is this would be the guide's first hunt of the year. And you're going to crush him. Right? Well. It's not good. Most of those guides up there are younger than me now. Didn't always used to be that way. But, I mean, hey. They live by the old Bronson rule. Can you tell me what that is? Oh, you do a couple of hikes and get your legs hard. In three days, my legs will be hard. That's exactly what you. In your 30s, they used to be.

You used to just, all right, quit drinking pop for a week and hike the mountain a couple times and your legs get hard and you're good to go. Yeah. And eat a salad and call it a day. That's right. It doesn't happen like that anymore. No. It doesn't. Kind of interesting. Anyway, here we are. So, that's my big one. Some of us are 50. Some of us aren't. That's cool. Thanks for announcing that to the world. No, no, no. Well, Logan, you can cut it if you want. No. I kind of think it adds spikes. Don't matter. To the podcast. All right. So, anyway, we're coming at you from a new Jason and Adam. We're not the old guys from way back that were just young. Takes time. Takes preparation. But that's a big hunt for me. Like you alluded, it doesn't overlap a whole lot. By the time I get back, if I'm lucky enough to have a Nevada archery deer or Utah archery deer or something, I'll jump right into that.

It really won't overlap anything. But it's going to move my... Start date, let's call it. Yeah, and my physical regimen and dieting and all that has to be on point from April, May, June on. And dieting just means one monster a day, not three. And maybe a couple less donuts and some basic good. We just look at protein a little different. You know what I mean? It's not a full-on diet. And working out. Because, like I said, a lot of the other ones, when you have deer hunts in Utah or elk hunts and you're scouting, all your scouting in July and August gets you ready for the hunt. It does. I can't do that now. I don't have that time. I have to be ready. I get on a plane and fly somewhere, and I have to be 100% ready. Yeah. There's no... No. Anyway, so I'm looking forward to it. It'll be fun. That kicks me off early. So I guess, yeah, above and beyond that, I need a couple.

Normally, and I know you're like this because you're Jason. Okay. But we get, our eyes get big about, to get four or five awesome deer tags that we think we're going to kill five awesome bucks. Four or five? Well, that's me. You're seven or eight, but I'm four or five. Nine maybe. I don't know. Okay. And I even have an archery New Mexico hunt that I'm like, I'm looking at and going, maybe I just leave the truck in the garage and call it a year. I mean, you know what I mean? It is. How many times can you come up with zero and not just call it a year? So my point is, is I think we've learned, hunting the West right now, mule deer, for big mule deer, it's really, really tough. Their numbers, even in the states that have them, are depressed so much that, man, it's really hard right now. So I'm not going to have four or five of those. I'm going to be a little bit more diverse this year.

I'm going to hopefully have a good archery. So we're talking about Bronson's new plan. Good archery out cut this year. Oh, yeah? Where? Yeah. Archery out. Maybe Montana. I'm writing it down. Montana's probably one of the states I'm highest. We both looked at that a bit. Yeah. If you can believe it. If I can make that happen, that's it. I should know. The good thing about that is you know about August, or sorry, April 15th or so, we should know. Application date of April 1st. Yeah. Should know shortly after that. I don't know. A couple deer hunts, but maybe an antelope, maybe a whitetail. Somebody's been having me thinking about whitetail. You're talking about antelope. Well. Nice. I like it. When big mule deer are hard to find, you hunt stuff with horns. No stags. Sheep. Sheep and goats. Stags, sheeps, and goats. No, it's all good. Okay. All right. Yeah. How about you? Yeah.

Plus or minus. Similar.

Whatever. Plus or minus. Come on. I always like to do Colorado, and you know my kids, even though we went to Colorado and we got our butts kicked, we actually, I mean we were on a, you know, one significant whatever, but it ended up like. Like everybody else in Colorado. It was tough. Right. Yeah. But at the end of the day, sitting around talking about it, it was one of my kids' highlights of the year. Well, and one of your boys smashed his first bull elk. Yeah. On an OTC. Yeah. So, I mean, there's other benefits to when the deer hunting's tough, you smashed a six point bull. It was awesome. Yeah. You know. And so, that in and of itself just kind of made it. But at the same time, we're running trucks. They're making decisions. We're working together. You know, just me and them. And it was just all about kind of the family trip.

So, anyway, it was an incredible experience on a tougher than normal deer year. And quite frankly, Bronson, I mean, we're talking whether it be Gunnison, whether it be Ego, whether it be Rangeley. There's not one unit that overachieved. Not really. Not one. May have been one or two that had glimmers of hope. One in particular that we both, neither of us like that seemed to produce pretty good. And then, you know, a few others that were okay and showed some slight promise. But generally speaking, you know, tough. Having said that, do you know one person that doesn't want to go back? No. I mean, we'll probably go back. And most guys want to go back to the same place they've been getting their butt kicked for years. It's the most interesting thing in the world. We have guys complaining. I had a guy complain. He says, you know, I only saw this and that.

And then we killed basically, you know, extremely marginal deer and had a marginal experience. I said, yeah, but you're going to keep going back. Yeah, by the way, here's all the bucks we've killed over the years. And there's just too much history and they love it. And got to carve their name on the tree with a 2002, four. Exactly. 2024 on top of the three, 23, 22, 21, 20, 19, 18, 17. And back when, and I have a really good friend that talks about hunting the ghosts of Christmas past. You know what I mean? He's talking about hunting the ghosts, the giants. Yeah. And it is the truth. Don't we all do that? Yeah. You know? You know, he's, and he's like, you know, I'm, I'm realizing that I'm just hunting the ghosts. Like what once was is not. And, uh, how many years in a row can you go and get your butt kicked and still want to go back?

I want to kill the new ghost buck, the, the buck that, that you used to duplicate. Yeah. Or try to duplicate. Yeah. The new ghost buck. The new ghost buck. You kill him and he's gone, but everybody tries to kill him after that. Over and over and over and over. So anyway, pretty interesting. Um, we're going to talk about Colorado more, obviously it's going to be the biggest, one of the biggest subjects we have. It's disheartening. I'm just going to tell you right now. It is. As far as talking about where and where I talked to a guy today with 19 points. Yes. And, and, and we've had guys with 20 plus points, 19, whatever that have the same experience as a zero to one, two point guy. That's what, that's what I told him. I says, I, I'll bet it was 90, 90 or 95% of the people that spent 20 plus points this year in Colorado. I'll bet we're disappointed with what they had. Yeah.

Don't you think 90% plus of them in what doesn't matter? The unit. Yeah. Every unit. Well, let's talk. I don't know. We don't have to talk about specifics, but you hunted a significant unit this year. Okay. Considered arguably the best in the state. One of them. Yeah. And? And, and, and, and Gunnison and others too. You passed one solid 190 grosser. A deer I would haven't shot, would haven't passed anywhere else. So I guess you could look at it that way, but it was still just. Ah, ah, four point. Felt like. But dang good one. Yeah. But just felt like, all right, first day. All right. This is telltale of what's going to happen. And it just didn't. Yep. Nothing. And, and that was there. And that was every other unit. Didn't matter what unit. And you're not disappointed, but the, a guy that spent, let's say it was a 26 pointer. Okay.

A guy that spends, let's say 26 and walks away and says, you know, I had, I saw one fleeting 190 incher. Everything else was 170s. You know, you, you know, your, your heart goes out to the 26 point guys. That's half our life. Or more. Over half our life. And you hit it, you hit the ground running also with history through friends, family, whatever. Whether it be this year, last year, five years ago, it doesn't matter. And. Not like you didn't know the area. You hit the ground running. No, no. It was there five days early. Yeah. And new people that had hunted earlier seasons. Yeah. So. So. And that didn't matter. And it didn't matter for others and other units. It was a very similar, it was a broken record throughout most of Western Colorado in, in units like that. That was the case. But there was some nice bucks killed in like units like 53 or whatever.

I mean, we know guys that killed some nice bucks there. But it was a sporadic, more of a random sporadic here and there. It wasn't like this unit had eight or 10. Like some, last year, some units did. Yeah. So. That's right. You remember how many, well, anyway. I mean, there's units that have had dang near a dozen in all the seasons, you know, of 200 plus inch type deer. And the next year, they're nothing. And the next year, they're nothing. And then I'll. Yep. And that happened again this year. Right. Again. Nothing. And so it's just hard to believe. When does. I want to hunt it when those. You're one of the 12. Dozen to hundos. You're one of the dirty dozen. Yeah. When can that happen? I want to be one of them. The dirty dozen. Yeah. So anyway. The Magnificent Seven. Kind of fun. We're dealing with a lot of feedback on all hunts. I've talked. We talked today. Bronson.

We've talked to guys that returned. I talked to a guy that actually killed a pretty darn nice bull. Early rifle wise up there in Idaho. Bull that crested 350. Anyway. But it was the best that he had heard about, seen about, whatever. Did a lot of scouting. Knows his stuff. And so we're learning a lot all the time. And it's just. What I think you really learn is to take the good ones and never forget them and cherish the moment. Because. Absolutely. Don't know when it's. It's just not the days of yesteryear. You know what I mean? No. That's right. It's absolutely not. So. Anyway. Good stuff. Lots of fun. Again. Making lots of plans. So yeah. We wanted to do. We wanted to change things up a little bit. I wanted to kind of change things up a little bit. Been looking to jump into the whitetail thing a little. But you always want to do it right.

And how do you do it right living in Utah and making deer your livelihood or deer and elk and sheep when it makes sense. And maybe an animal bear in there or whatever. Right. And so how do you do. How do you hunt whitetails like we do mule deer? Generally you don't. Right. Because you either can't because you don't have the time or you got to give up hunting the mule deer when you normally would want to hunt them to go hunt whitetails somewhere else. Right. Right. And have some kind of input then in your own hunt which is kind of what you wanted to do. We all do. Right. Well you want to. Even though you wouldn't consider yourself a whitetail expert that's part of the. You know. We see it all. It's part of the whole whitetail experience is getting to you know. Getting to get out there. Read sign. Hang your own stands even. You know. Work your cameras. Yeah. Whatever. Stuff like that.

And I'm green at that. Like I sat in stands. Okay. Back in the day. I sat in stands. Bronson. Do you remember what we used to use as a safety harness? Nothing. It could have been a white little rope. I had nothing. That would choke you off. You know. Or nothing. In an aspen tree. I remember falling asleep sometimes and catching yourself right there. Yeah. And then I was so freaking scared. There's no way I could even come close to falling asleep the rest of the day. So I want to know. I literally had nothing around me. I have some questions. A. I don't know anybody that died in that time frame. Oh. From a tree stand fall. No. Necessarily. Okay. I don't know how. Okay. How about lead paint? Do you know anybody that died from lead paint? Well. If you died from something they didn't know what killed you. It could have been lead paint. I guess. Could have been. But. But. But. But. Not likely.

The way I. How about traveling in camper shells. How about not having. No seat belts. No seat belts. Shoulder seat belts. That's only the lap belt. Like we've. I mean. It's a miracle. It's a miracle. Right. Now there's harnesses. Major wazoo harnesses. That's right. No knots and a few things. You know. To be 100% safe. Yeah. And so that. So when you fall. You don't land upside down. Or whatever. So you stay bobbing up there. If you're head up. Bobbing. I don't know. Bouncing in the air. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Maybe. Anyway. There's processes now. That are. That are. That are. Acceptable. By the. By the. OSHA. Tree stand. OSHA approved. Yeah. Whatever. Right. Probably. Probably get sued. National tree hunting. Yeah. Who knows. Get sued by the BLM. For hanging a tree stand right now. National tree stand association. Approved. Exactly. Right. So anyway. Learned a lot. Good friend of mine.

Roger Smithson. Really knows what he's doing. When it comes to whitetail. And. And. Safety. Overall. Anyway. With the whitetails. He's hunted them for years and years. And been super. Successful. And. This particular trip. I've. I've helped him out here. He smashed a really good buck out here in Nevada. And a few things. Been on a mountain goat hunt in Colorado. And. And whatnot. And then we've also hunted together. And. You know. Hunted unit 40 in Colorado. For. For muzzleloader elk. When it was 93 degree. 93 and a half degrees. On a cool day. So. Anyway. We've had some fun experiences together. But anyway. He's like. Hey. You know. Let's go. Let's go hunt Iowa. And I've been building points. More points than I need. Seven. By the way. And. Just in case. To make sure I could force the draw. In the event. I wanted to go. And the right opportunity came along. Right opportunity came along.

He's got great contacts. And really good friends. And there was a spot for a couple of us. And he was in the zone next to. To me. On his. You know. Old faithful. Lease. And whatnot. And with his relationships. And so. Anyway. It was awesome. And I just learned a lot from him. And from the guys. We went out. We hung stands. Ran some cameras. And whatnot. And we're waiting for that initial cold snap. That happens closest to Halloween. And you know. From what I understand. Who knows. Right. But that's what. That's the. The experts say. That's go time. That's go time. You got a lot of movement. And you learn that too. You have friends. Yeah. Great clients. That live in Iowa. Or around Iowa. That make. That hunt white tails aggressively. And they. They like the last. Five days of October. Yeah. They start. They like them when the bucks are. Not really paired up. And on a doe yet.

But they're active. They're working trails. The bucks. They just feel. They're out there. Figured. Finding out what. Who's out there. Yeah. And what. Doing inventory of the ladies. Yeah. That. And inventory of the bucks. Yeah. Like. They're marking. Marking their territory. Find out who else is around. They're just active. And you're reading scrapes. And rubs. And all these things. And so. I'm walking up. And I. And. And I'm blown by. An amazing scrape. Right. I'm just walking. I thought it was. We're walking a tree line. I don't know. You thought some turkeys. Looking for a rub. Looking for a rub. Looking for acorns. Who knows. Right. Exactly. Turkey scratch. And I'm like. Whoa. That means something right there. And so you start to not miss those. And. And looking for rubs. And. Rubs on big trees. On big rubs. And this and that. And. And you just start reading. Sign.

Like we would out here. But it's totally different. You know. And so you get kind of a crash course on this. Because your hunt. A. A. You want to. Succeed. And you want to learn. And you're just a sponge. Well yeah. The next week of your life. You're going to be. You're going to be hanging a tree stand. Based on whatever sign you're interpreting and reading. When you get there. Yeah. And you're either wasting your week. Or you're. You're going to guess right. And get in a couple of key places. Right. And there's not. There's a lot hinging. Your whole hunt's hinging upon. On a. On a. Reading. Pinch point. Reading that. Or sign. Or whatever. On a trail. On a pinch point. And when you. And you think. It's just like. I used to think. Like in wilderness areas. Like who needs a trail. Like who cares. Like we're all. You know. We kind of grow up. Just going cross country.

You want to get from point A to point B. Whatever. Well. Go. Go up there in Wyoming. Or Idaho. Or whatever. In a wilderness area. And go through a bunch of downfall. And then. You realize how grateful you are for a trail. There are certain things. Same thing. Yeah. You know how thick. Noxious weeds. It's briars. This is thorns. It's. It's crazy out there. In Iowa. And so. You start. When you start looking around. You're running the edge of a. Of a. Of a tree line. Or whatever. You enter into the trees. And you're going through it. And you're getting. I mean. You're. Yeah. Your skin's dripping blood. From various places. And you start to realize. How important those trails are. And what deer think of them. And what not. You're looking at them too. It's. You know what I mean. So you don't. Bypass a good trail. And a pinch point. In a narrow. Yeah. Section of trees. You know.

That the deer are traveling. From point A to point B. Undercover. With ease. On the only great trail there. And so. That anyway. There was just a lot. And it was pretty awesome. So. Roger had done a lot of. Scout. Pre. What's called. Pre-scouting.

I'm going to throw it in there. Do it. Don't you delete it. Either. Logan. We've done a lot of. He did a lot of. Pre-scouting. And. And. And.

And ran cameras early. In these types of areas. And. Ended up getting. A basic inventory. Of. Some significant bucks. The significant bucks. On this farm. As well as farms. B. C. D. And E. All of which are. Under the relatives. Same relatives. And. And then. The more you learn too. Is what your neighbors do. Affect. Affect you big time. Bronson. You went to Iowa. You killed a great buck as well. And you realize that. The neighbors. Oh yeah. Impact your hunting too. If they. If they have. Every generation. Of. A family member. For the last four generations. Come back to hunt the place. Every year. Shotgun. They're going to wipe it out. They're going to wipe out. Some of your bucks. Because. During the rut. And during movement. And food crop rotation. Stuff jumps. Fences and all that. Like. But somebody that. Either doesn't hunt. Or hunts. Much like the farm you're hunting.

Very selectively. Very cautiously. And all that. Extracting. Specifically. You've got. You've got a better chance to. You know. Just have a management program. You know. Deer that you pass. Grow another year older. Next year. And the year older. And things like that. Versus. Scorched earth. And everything gets shot around you. And you're just like. You're trying to kill a needle in a haystack. Exactly. And so there's some of this country. That you learn. That some of the relatives. Don't allow any hunting whatsoever. Even if it's blood relatives. No hunting. And that does nothing. But help you. Just a refuge. Yeah. Or non-hunted areas. Not. Areas that aren't. Don't allow hunting. Yeah. Whether it be. County property. Yeah. Or whatever. Who knows. Right. Park or city ground. Whatever. Something. Who knows. And so. Anyway. You just learn that. Just by being out there. More so than here.

Yeah. Here in Utah. There is no. Unless it's. Zion National Park. Or. The city limit box. And stuff. Or city limit. Yeah. There is no such thing. So there's things like that. You just kind of. You just kind of learn that. Well this is important. Maybe we ought to think about this a little bit more. Very little public land out there. Although there is some. And there's guys doing well. And. To do well on public land in Iowa. You've got to be a pretty darn good hunter. And we know some of those guys. And live close enough to maybe really scout it. Get to know it. You can't drive from Utah. Show up to a piece of public land. And base your whole week on it. You know. When you get there. That's very hard to do. So Roger and I were out there. And we were starting to. Put up all the stands. He had put up a couple. And then I think a lightning storm came in. This was earlier.

So let's call it a month and a half earlier. And. And. Just call it a day. It was a flat. You know. And putting up these stands. It's not like. Like you and I used to use these. Not a five minute job. Yeah. You and I used to just screw the steps in. A couple of them. You know. And you got aspens. And you can throw a hundred in. And you don't get tired. And then just this little old chintzy. Ratty. Cheapest tree stand. Tree stand. The bell is itself. You know. Whatever. Sportsman guide. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. And so anyway. No. When you're using a ladder stand. Or whatever. You're. I mean. It takes a minute. Oh it does. And the right tree. Yeah. You can't just. Lean them up on anything. It's a process and a plan. And then. And then. You know. How's it facing. And then. The wind. If the wind's bad. You're going to have stand B option. Or stand A option. If the wind's preferable.

And what's the forecast looking in the next five days. And so there's just a lot goes into it. Anyway. We. We ended up putting up a bunch of stands. Season's on. It's a long season. It's not like. I mean. The season's on. And generally. If you got something patterned on a food plot or whatever. Maybe you would hunt early. And there were some big deer getting smashed early. And. You know. And. And we could have done that. Hindsight. Maybe. Maybe on some of these bucks. That you feel like you got a little bit of a pattern. Maybe you do hunt them early. Before they start to walk around. But generally. You want them to be walking around. You want them active. You know. So we set up this particular stand. That I sat in the first day. And. Of course. Roger's not even. Up around. And. He's. He's going to be sitting in a. Stand in a different zone. And. He's like.

Which stand are you going to sit in? I'm going to stand A. Let's just call it. I'm like. I think stand A. But there is no. There are. There's hardly any game at the moment. We just. It doesn't feel great. But. It's where the best buck is. And I'm just like. You know. I don't know. I'm good. You and I can go. Days. We're trained. Right. We can go days without seeing. An animal. Whatever. We're going to watch a little. Big old red squirrel. Whatever. I mean. They got some crazy big. Stuff out there. Kind of interesting. Past the time. So anyway. Go. Climb up in this stand. I don't see nothing. Roger. I should read you the text. You remember. I showed you the text. Yeah. You did. And. Roger's like. I've seen 10 bucks. And this. And that. And I mean. It's activities. How's it going over there. Jason. Yeah. How's it going. I said. Nothing. Got a squirrel. I'm going to. I'm going to look it up.

Because it is pretty interesting. It's pretty funny. And Roger's. Just a great sport. He. He's like. I don't know if I'd sit that stand. He's wanting me to have activity. Like he. He wants the best for me. He realized. He just told you. He's got deer everywhere. Yeah. I don't know. Passing bucks. And you're. Looking for your first doe. Yeah. Right. I am actually. And. And we saw. Setting up stands. You see stuff. You bump a few. And. And whatnot. And so it's. It's really fun. But. Anyway. Kind of. Kind of fun. When we're doing that. And we're comparing notes. And. And you're also being able to text from the stands. That's nice. You can. You can. Keep each other going. You know what I mean. Well. I. I. I don't remember. Why I was home. But I was home in Utah. Right about then. And I can't remember when this was now. If it was late October. Or early November. But I was in between.

Probably sheep hunt or something. And I remember waking up. And I remember texting you this morning. I texted you. Hey. You understand. And you're like. Yep. I'm there. Yeah. I remember. It was just a. Oh. We hadn't texted for a week. Maybe. Because wherever I had been. Anyway. And you're. You're hunting. Because I was home. And I was thinking about hunting still. And you were. You're hunting somewhere new. Yeah. So anyway. And. And it is. I. So I drove out there. That's another thing. People just shake their heads. You and I are just used to driving. Right. And when you have your truck. You have your gear. I mean all your gear. Well. A decoy. I had to stop and get a decoy. I mean. Rattling antlers. Whatever. You know. What are you going to take on a plane? And you feel like. You just feel handicapped. Even though. You don't need a four wheel drive truck. To be out there. You know.

You can rent anything from the airport. And you're good. And so. Anyway. Let me. I'm getting to this right here.

All right. Here it goes. Right here. And it's. It's kind of fun. What you got going over there boss? Yeah. Anyway.

He says. Seeing much. I saw a lot of deer early. Okay. Right off the bat. He's just. But he doesn't tell you exactly how many. No. He doesn't want to. He's trying to not make me feel bad. Because I suck so bad. Who knows. And I'm thinking. How can you suck that bad? The wind's perfect. Okay. I'm on the edge of this. Thicket. Is that what you call him back here? He's a thicket. So anyway. I'm on the edge of this thicket. The wind's in my face. So it's blowing out over this open field. And so this. Let's call it a pinch point or whatever. Travel corridor. This. Of a good trail. Through the briars and thistles. I mean. It's perfect. Any deer that's coming through this. I cannot see me. I'm not screwed. I'm not screwing it up. You know. But anyway. I said. None. Seeing much. I saw a lot of deer early. None. Kind of figured this stand might take a bit. I'm. I know. You know me. I'm just like.

Now you're telling me. I don't know what to see. He says. I agree. I think they need to be roaming for it to be good. I've seen several bucks just calmly feeding. I think you should hunt in a different location. He says. You know. And. I think it's best beside. You know. The cut corn. We're talking about. You know. Here in this area. There's a lot of people back there that do food plots. And. They do it for the deer. And this is incidental to. Deer hunting is incidental to. You know. The main stay there is. Farming. Farming. Yeah. You know. And. And so anyway. And then he says. I just had two decent bucks walk by. That's it. Okay. Another. He's pouring it on. Oh. He's pouring it on. Huge body mature buck. Chasing a doe hard under me now. Okay. That was another. Another buck. That way it went from 849. Was I had two decent bucks to 909. I had a huge mature buck. A huge mature buck with a.

Chasing a doe hard under me. Okay. And. And earlier. When he's talking about earlier. Just calmly feeding. That was 845. And then seeing much. I saw a lot of deer early. That was 824. You know what I mean. And so. Within a 30 minute period. Yeah. He's covered. And I don't even reply. The only thing that happens there. He says. I saw a huge mature buck. Chasing a doe hard under me. And I said. I killed him. That's it. Yeah. So. And he goes. Three brow. I'm not sure. Okay. So. Let me just tell you how this went down. I'm looking. And I'm. And you can't see. So what time. You're. You're in there. How early. Before daylight. An hour. Oh yeah. So I mean. I've been sitting. And how long have you been sitting there? Well this is like. 1009. Okay. So you sat there. I don't know. Light it. Let's call it 6 a.m. I don't know. 630. 630. 7. Something like that. I don't know. Okay.

You've been sitting there. Three and a half. Four hours. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And what? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. No. The big red squirrel. Okay. You know. That I'm. Look. I want to. You're glued on. Crush this thing. Because I don't know why they have to alert the entire forest. That something is awry. You know what I mean? Oh my gosh. Anyway. I'm like. I killed him. And I'm shaking like a dog. Shizzing. You know what? And he's like. Three brown. I'm like. I'm not sure. Is he down? Probably. You just shot? Question mark? Yes. Did you see him fall? Stumble.

No. Well. I'm shaking. No. No perfect answers. Like. Yeah. You can't see him. I don't know. What it was that I killed. I shot him. It looked good. I saw blood everywhere. He hit a tree. Blowing out. But. And I'm sitting there. In this tree. Thankfully I've got a harness on. Because that would have probably fallen out. Yeah. So this deer. So I look up. Yeah. Let's go back. Okay. So I. You've been there. I haven't seen. Three. Three and a half hours. Then. Movement. And I'm just. And you need to. It's just like anything. You need to be. Consciously aware. You can't let these things. Surprise you. So it's a thick. I can see 80 or 90. Or let's call it 100 yards. And then it's thicker than garbage. And then the next time I would see him. Would be at 40. Or 35. And you wouldn't have time. To really have your wherewithal. Grab your bow. Off the bow hanger. You know. There's already one knocked.

But you've got to grab it off. And then. Just get ready. Have the wherewithal to get ready. Right. And then you also need to be ranging. And have the basic ranges in front of you. So you're not screwing around with your range finder. In the heat of battle. I look down there at 100 and something. I see a deer coming my way like crazy. And I'm like. Like fast. Trotting. Fast. Just boom. I just see him. And I'm like. Huh. This is like. Okay. I want to open the textbook. And say. What is it? Deer move aggressively. The last week of October. This is textbook. Okay. This deer is crushing the place. Is he? Oh yeah. And he's going to come right up through me. Down dogging. No. I don't know what he's doing. He's just. And he's going to come up through me. And my general. Bronson. Do you know how to judge a whitetail? No. Exactly. No I don't. No. And you don't want to be embarrassed.

I can't believe Carter shot 143 inch. You know or whatever. You know. I don't know. Yeah. You know. They all look small. But. 180. I could pass. I mean because.

You know. They're built different. My deer is built different than a mule deer. Of the same score. Yeah. Yeah. It's got 27 inch beams. Yeah. I would guess 22. 21. Yeah. And three eighths. I don't know. Okay. So anyway. This thing. And he disappears. And I'm like. You're crapping me. This is. I don't know what that was. But he was a significant frame. And he's coming. And the only deer I have in mind is three brow. So. Grab my bow. And I'm like. Okay. Here we are. I don't know what I'm going to do with this. But we're going to find out. And then it's like three real minutes or something. Three minutes. Yeah. From 80 to 90 yards. And so I'm assuming he just got hung up. Maybe he. A doe. He's tracking out a doe right there. I don't know what it is. Maybe he's on me. Just too thick. Too thick. You can't see anything. Who knows. Right. And so. Then all of a sudden he's charging hard.

He's at 35 or 40. And he's coming up through. And I can see the one split brow. The great big old split on it. And I'm like. That's a split brow. But you know. Whitetails. There's kind of a lot of bucks with a split brow. And big brows. Right. You don't know. Right. And then. Would he come. So I'm like. Okay. And then he comes behind a tree. I draw. How far? 30. Roughly. Or whatever. He's in range. Yeah. But it's kind of a. A longer shot for what would be normal. Yeah. In this country. But anyway. He's not where I think he would have been. He's a. So this has my stand. A level. And then it goes down a level. And then down another level. So it's downhill. Yeah. So it's down. But it's also down because I'm in the tree. But then the ground gives way. The further you get from my tree. So you're down into this ravine. And. So anyway. I. So I'm facing him. He comes out right in front of me.

And he comes behind a tree. I pull. I draw. And. My knees are facing him. I'm drawn. Facing him. And so just picture yourself. Yeah. Like this. You know. And I don't know. Seemed all right. You know. Everything's fine. Anyway. And he's crushing. And I see. His beams are past. Way past the end of his nose. You're looking. Side profile. And I'm looking down. Side profile. And I'm like. And I know. He's more than an A point. He's. Yeah. He's got tangs everywhere. Yeah. And we say tangs and chest people. Don't crush me for it. And I'm like. That's a significant deer. I'm freaking pounding. So. He comes out to the side. I'm like. That's it. That's it. He stops. Textbook. I'm thinking. Go to the textbook. If you make a. You grunt. Deer stops. You squeeze trigger. Punch the release. Yeah. Punch the release.

Smoked right through him like butter. Perfect. You watched it. I wouldn't have changed the. You watched it. I watched. And I. And there was leaves. Okay. So another thing. Leaves everywhere. Vegetation. Green. Not dead. Not dead leaves. No. Usually you have. Leaves are falling. Yeah. It's brown. There's snow. Hopefully. Whatever. Or it's colder than crap. Or whatever. The colder the better. Right. I'm like. Anyway. I kind of. Fish till it through the leaves. Call it. I don't know. It gets. It punches through the leaves. And finds its mark. Perfect. Like wouldn't change to half an inch. And I'm like. Holy crap. Takes off like a. Went through him like butter. He takes off. Freaking slams into another tree. Could you see blood? Yeah. I could see blood on him. And I'm like. I just killed a buck. And I hope it's not 132 inches. I mean. I don't know what I got. I got a split brow.

I'm not sure it's tree brow. Not tree brow. But he's split. I got a split brow. Could be dose. And so. Anyway. And so he says. Did you see him fall? Stumble. He said. Give him an hour. Unless you're really sure he's down. What are you doing now? Shaking. Okay. I used to get buck fever bad. And I just decided. I told myself. You. You're trying to kill world class bucks. It was back in the Brutus days. Pretty boys. Some of these bucks. You're trying to kill world class bucks. You're working your guts out all summer. Into the hunt. You have one opportunity. And you can't hold it together. You got to hold it together. You got to hold it together. So I chastised myself so much. That it was more like. I can hold it together. But when it's over. I dang it. Puke. You know. Do you do the same? Shake. And it's part of why. I have a dry cough. Why you hunt. Why you hunt. Oh. I have a dry cough.

I can't quit. And I'm like. I mean. How does this happen every time? My kids will kill. And I have a dry cough. I'm just. Jeez. So anyway. He goes. Me too. So I said. What are you. What are you doing now? Shaking. Me too. I said. I can't judge Roger. And it was fast. He says. I'll get down now. And head your way. I said. Just wait. He says. I'll do what you tell me to do. I said. Is there any other split brow. In this area. You know. In this area. He goes. No. And I go. Good.

Anyway. And then he's like. He seemed very wide. How do I know? Ha ha ha. I can't judge them. And he goes. If you're rattled. It's a giant. Where did he run? And I said. And then I just. Went from there. I said. Up.

Anyway. Did you hear him fall? No. But it's windy. Blood out his side. It's like. I'm shorthanding this thing. And he goes. And then I said. I shot straight out in front of me. Facing uphill. Toward where I parked the truck. He took off in that same direction. He goes. Good. That's perfect. I said. Yeah. I'm shizzing. I pray it's him. I think it is. Possibly. I hope. So. Anyway. Long story short. We walked up. An hour and a half later. Yeah. I do know what Roger says. He says. Wait an hour. I'll wait too. Were you in the tree when he walked up to you? No. Still? No. You got out. Oh. I went back to town. Got a hot chocolate. You did? Oh. Yeah. Yeah. I got to warm up. It was a cool 43 degrees. So anyway. So then you walked back in together. All right. Yeah. So I wait for Roger. Because that's what you do. We walked in together and it was him. It was just awesome. I videoed it all.

All of us walking in on him. And it was a lot of fun. So. So. First stand. So how far did he go? First sit. Oh. I don't know. Like 63 yards or 80 yards. I don't know. Whatever. First stand. First buck. First deer I'd seen out of stand. First morning that I tried. You know what I mean? What? But we were there for two days hanging stands. And just. It was hot, dude. It was 70 degrees. In the day. Yeah. So you know. It was low activity and things like that. So anyway. It was a lot of fun. Just an incredible experience. Ended up being an absolute stud. And all was well. And then I've also got a hunt booked in Canada. Up in Alberta for the cold weather bucks. And you know those dark horn cold weather bucks. You just. There's something about it. There's a block of meat. Yeah. You know what I mean? You hope you have enough gun. Yeah. On a couple of. Yeah. Yeah. And they say. Bring a 30 cal.

Like do. You know. Bring something aggressive. Yeah. Because they're just. They're a big animal. So. Anyway. Got lucky. Killed a. You know. World class buck in Iowa. And. It. Has nothing to do with me. It's everything to do with. You know. The relationships. And then the properties. And. And. Not necessarily even the zone. I think. There's obviously zones. That have. More deer in Boone and Crockett listed. But. But. I'm learning. A lot of. Some of these zones. Are not good habitat. You know what I mean? And then some of these zones. Are 100% habitat. Yeah. And so you start to realize. Well. It's not necessarily that one zone. Has better genetics or another. Or. Whatever. It might be the farms. That are. That are. That are managed. Good. Good chance of that. Compile. Or. In conjunction with. You know. Endless good habitat. Versus. Versus. Spotty. Good habitat. And so. Anyway.

But there was high animal. And what we would call. A high animal activity index. Whatever. A full moon. Whatever it was. I mean. We would be driving down. Highways at dark. Roger and I go eat together. Whatever. And that you could see the activity. Great. Like crazy. Running all over. All bucks crossing the roads. And things like that. And there's just. It becomes so addicting. These animals are. Are impressive. They. They. Their patterns. Well. And they're new. And you tasted it. First hand. It all. Yes. Unfolded right in front of your eyes. Yeah. And you were part of it. Like by far. I am a student. It is not. You know. I mean. I learned a ton. But then. But. I held the ladder. While Roger was making sure the stand was safe. Whatever. Right. But you were part of it. Yeah. You were part of it. Hiking out all the. All the. You know. The different farms. Haven't. You know. Listening to.

To Roger. You know. Talk about why this would be good. Versus that be good. And things like that. So anyway. We're learning. And. And. Yeah. So that's the scoop. Anybody. Anybody interested. Should be gaining points in Iowa. You never know when your chance comes. Your chance might be. A friend. Your chance might be. Outfitters that we work with. Or. Or whatever. But I would highly suggest. Anybody that's interested. Do that. We're also. You and I. I mean. Who knows. We've got hunts in Illinois. Available. We've. You and I have considered that. Or. For sure. Kansas. Kansas. Produces an incredible amount of big bucks. Yeah. And doesn't take as many points to go. There. As it does Iowa. Yeah. So. At least for archery. You know. So. I want to. Talk about your hunt. And then we'll go back to Canada. So. I want to talk about. Let's. Interject with. New Mexico. You mean? Oh. Yeah. Well.

Your hunt. And then we'll go back to Canada. You know. The Alberta hunt. The New Mexico hunt. You mean.

Okay. Well. Unless you want to talk about. Any other. No. Yeah. I didn't know what hunting you were talking about. Yeah. But that. That's what I thought you were talking about. Yeah. So. I think we've teed this up. Well. Five times. You know. Yeah. Everybody knows. I've got a. I. I. Won a special tag in New Mexico. The raffle tag. That happened back in late June. When we was out. I was out scouting Nevada. And got a voicemail. And. Kind of changed my year. But the year was set. Right. By. End of June. First of July. My personal schedule is set by then. Draws are all over. I mean. Arizona's probably even out by then. You know. It's like. There's nothing else that can happen really. Yeah. In addition to. Any hunters that I'm going to guide. Sheep hunters and stuff like that. So. I had a very full year. And so. It's really. Not practical. To get that tag at that time of the year. And think.

All right. I'm going to start scouting. Yeah. August or whatever. In New Mexico. And makes. Like we do. Can't make it happen. Most. Most hunts that. On your own. Like. In two or three states a way. Yeah. You draw the best Nevada. Deer tag. Or the best Utah. And you go scout it. And be a participant. So.

Obviously. I immediately reached out to. A bunch of different people. And told them I had the tag. Just so. Hey. Something. You guys are out hunting elk this year. And come across stuff. You know. Make. Hey. Don't just tune it out. You know. Somebody's a tag. Type thing. Bunch of friends. Outfitters we work with here at Epic Outdoors. Things like that. You know. And down in August. I had a couple. A couple bucks that. You know. Were sent to me. Across the state. That you know. Call them. Almost untouchable. Ghost bucks. We'll call them. You know. They're. Whether. Where they were living. Or. You know. In the circumstances. What they're living under. The jurisdiction. Land ownership. Super thick trees. Or land ownership. Or just. You know. You can't hunt them where they're at. But hey. I went down there. A couple times. Just to. Just to see from my own eyes. Sometimes.

The bucks are too big to keep you home. Yeah. Even though they're not huntable. That's right. But. But I. You went down there. Just. You got to kind of just see the inner workings. Of when. And where this might happen. Or how would it have to happen. Yeah. If it's going to happen. Yeah. For yourself. And so I did that. But then. You know. Once September hits. It's. Which is when I can hunt. September through January. Like. My September. Is mapped out. I mean. I've got. You know. Sheep hunters. And personal hunts. I've got elk hunts. And you know. I had an archery deer hunt in Nevada. Obviously. That went fast in August. So that was over with. Luckily. That buck's already mounted. Yeah. I got to go get it. Yeah. Jeff Baird. You're awesome. Yeah. I appreciate it. I got to go pick that up. And he looks good too. Yeah. So. But anyway. So yeah. I had. You know. It was going to come down to.

Maybe getting a call. Some point. At any point. And there's a. A big deer. Some deer. But. In the back of our minds. We all kind of knew. All right. When we're all done hunting this year. End of November. We're going to have some time. From Thanksgiving on to early December. And throughout December. Like now. Frankly. After the magazines are out. We're going to go down there. And hunt. Four to five days at a time. And crush the winter age. And the rut. Do the magazine. And maybe come back around Christmas. Yeah. Exactly. And you try to do that type of a tag. So prior to January one. January one. Yeah. The state has a lot of. Archery. January one to 15. Archery hunts in the best units. So. And they do rut a little later in New Mexico. Than say most of Colorado or Utah. So. You know. From Thanksgiving on. Thanksgiving till the end of December. Is honestly. Like.

That's when we kind of had planned. But. Went about all our year. And. You know. Had a few other. You know. Remember bucks here and that. Pop up. A few other deer get shot around the state. And so. Just kind of randomly. Got killed. Well. Long story short. I guess. We'll fast forward to. I guess. When it starts to happen. I'm starting to. You know. Touch base with a few guys. The. The. The regular rifle hunts. Are ending in mid-November. On some of these key units. Which were brutal. And unit two. And four. And five. And the units that you might say. Are the highest. Seven. Highest probability units. That. That something. Is probably going to happen. Or where we would go hunt. On our own. If we just said. We're going down to hunt. We're going to go hunt in northern New Mexico. Riro. Riba County. Unit two. Two. The twos. Or sevens. Or fives. Or whatever.

That's where we're going to go look. And. Anyway. Starting to get some pictures of deer. And I'd like. Elected not to hunt a couple of deer. You know. 200 inch deer. Maybe. 205 or 10 type. Type inch deer. Just because it's just. Right starting. Right. Right around Thanksgiving. And. You know. Just kind of thought. All right. I don't think we're. You know. Some years though. We know that 200 inch deer. Hard to turn up for. On auction. This particular year. There was a ton of water. And we're just like. How can this not be a bad year. This is like. A year you wait for. You feel like. For New Mexico. You feel like. Yeah. But even in New Mexico. When you had a few. Rumored bucks. But. Even in New Mexico. Still to this day. It's amazing. How tough it is to find a big deer. Yeah. Like even. The regular hunts. They just didn't do it. No. Even in the. Even. Statewide. In the best units.

Unlimited. Yeah. Unlimited season dates. Or whatever. It's just amazing. What didn't show up. Like. We all know. You killed a great buck. But I'm just saying. I would. I thought there would be more. Yeah. And we'd hear even. I. I was always. In the back of my mind. I don't want to shoot a buck. A really good buck. Too early. Oh yeah. And then have a freaking giant show up. You were like. Do I. Do I pass a 220. In hopes of. I wanted you to kill a net booker. Yeah. A net 230. Well. Of course. We always want that. But. But. You know. There. And some of those other deer. We felt like. Yeah. I. I'm. They might. If I kill those. I. I'm probably gonna. I can't say regret it. But I'll bet something bigger shows up. Yep. I want to. I want to shoot a deer. Like we always would. I want to see a deer. And shoot a deer. Like. There's just no question. I'm killing that deer. Whatever it is.

I'm killing. Killing money. Yep. Yep. That's right. And so. You know. Unfortunately. A deer like that finally showed up. And. Got a good call. A good. A call from a. Good friend of ours. An outfitter. Dave Montoya. Who had history. Him and. His crew of guys. Of this deer. The last. Last. Well I guess the third year at least. He was recognizable. Yes. You know. Maybe seen him prior to that. But. Showed up to rut. You know. And. And he runs within the same 500 yards. Year after year. And we're not talking. Bronson. We're not talking. A big. Steep. Deep. Canyon. That. This is where he comes. And he kind of. He's. Really in this location. What keeps him there. Versus. A mile away. Is nothing. There's does in both places. Well. How does he go right here. And there's does. You know. They suspected he probably moved in from. You know. Which we'll talk about that in a little bit. Yeah.

Maybe suspected he moved in. Maybe even from Colorado. You never know. But. He wasn't a resident deer. They did not think. Because they didn't show up until. December. Ever. In this particular area. You get influx from Colorado. You also get it off the hickory. Or. Or. Surrounding. Areas. And then you have resident deer too. Yeah. So. You know. You don't really know what. And where he's coming from. But. Long story short. Yeah. It was a. It was a. I got a. A message from Dave. And. Obviously. Followed by some. Video. And some pictures. And all that. And I just said. Just get all you can. I'm making. I'm making arrangements. The phones got hot. For a minute. Like I'm. I'm. It's Sunday. And I'm. I was on my way to church. I'm not supposed to be texting. And I'm texting like crazy. I was on my way to church. Literally. And I. Luckily I have nine o'clock church.

Because I got to go to church still. And. Basically. My bags were 95% packed. As they had been for two weeks. Because I knew it was getting to the time of year. That I'm going to. Yeah. You know. I was actually at the end of this same week. That I got a call. I was actually going to. We were going to go down there. Maybe Thursday. Through the weekend. But. Anyway. Saw pictures of the deer. He kind of had. He had kind of everything. He had a. You know. Good frame. In lines. Cheaters. Trash. Just a great look. And just. How do you. How do you not let a deer. How do you let a deer like that go. So I basically. You know. And this is the time of the year. We're now finally back in the office. Right. And we've got a Christmas party planned. For like. Two days later. And I just basically. Sit. Texted. Everybody. And said. Hey. You said. Like. I do not. I've got the text locks here.

I do not know what everybody's doing. You said. You know. We're talking about score. You'd send it over. You talked about score. And you said. What are you doing tomorrow. And I said. Killing a deer with you.

Anyway. Keep going. It was just. Ah. I knew that I had to get home. I need to get my stuff. And start heading down there. I knew nothing. You know. I just knew. All right. This is what I've been waiting for. I've got to get down there. A deer showed up. You know. During the rut. A deer could be short lived in a certain place. Who knows. Time to get down there. But fortunately. Most of the guys in the office were able to get down there. I grabbed Josh over the mountain. We went down there together. And then later that day. You know. You guys. I mean. Devin. At that time. Was clear up in north. Northeastern Nevada. Yeah. And he was on his way home. But. That's not a quick task. No. Not. And especially. I have in my mind that Devin drives really slow. But I don't. I don't know. I don't know that that's always the case. I don't know. I think he hammered down.

But he did have a headwind and a trailer. The trailer was wearing. Wearing out the tires. But anyway. But. He made it. He made it. We waited. We waited. And then threw him in the truck. Got him through. And you guys drove down there that night. And we crashed that night. And went out the next day. And thought it was just going to be a typical smash and grab. No. And it wasn't. No. Went right to where. You know. The deer had been found and living and watched by. You know. Dave and Matt. And he was. He was gone. This is Dave Montoya. Yeah. Drop time guides. That's right. It was. Nowhere to be found. You know. That. Literally the deer. There were deer exactly where he was. And he was no longer there. So we just. We covered as much country. It's not something you're going to get cute. And get out hiking. And pushing. You know. You're just going to kind of casually hunt. You know.

He's probably with a doe. One doe that he wants. You're not wanting to. You're not wanting to blow all the does out. No. Like. You're just kind of like. We just. We're calling here. Lightly touch it. Yeah. Yeah. Lightly touch it. But we hunted all that morning. So we had to have a lot of patience. Yeah. It took us 10 hours longer than we wanted it. That's right. All right. Keep going. That's right. So. You know. It gets midday. The deer are on the. You know. Pen and juniper trees. We're like. All right. We'll take a break.

Just kind of interesting. We'd each driven down a two track. You know. Each. Each different truck. And one truck had come out and driven by. And then. You know. We happened to be the last truck out of this little draw. And it's getting what. The last 30 minutes or so. Yeah. Of daylight. Maybe 45. Mm-hmm. And we stopped. And was looking up this other draw. And look over. What's that? And boom. There he is. It's like. With one doe. Just like we thought. Yeah. Had a little two point there. Kind of trailing him. But. And. Obviously it was pretty fun. Got. Got Jason out. And Josh. And they were able to video the whole thing. So. Yeah. We were able to put that. On a. YouTube episode at some point. It was neat. And they got everybody there. Walking up. The other guys were. You know. Probably seven. Eight hundred yards up. Upper ridge. And were able to. You know. Look back and watch the deer.

And watch us. And. He was starting to get nervous. And it's not. Okay. Let me just be clear. The deer is not going to get away. Right. Like. We've got him. But. He was starting to get nervous. And it was a more. It wasn't a trot. But it was like a fast walk. And I mean. You just pounded him. It was perfect. It was. It just didn't want to get dark again. Yeah. I mean. You're there. Everybody's there. Yes. Tomorrow. It's going to turn into some people. Well. We have a company Christmas party. Christmas party. And my wife. Okay. She's already wound up. She's already wound up. She's done all the planning and prep. And if all. Only the wives show up. And the ladies and license app. To our party. Let's just face it. It would be very boring. Well. No. I was going to say we would be dead men. Logan. Logan would have been there. I would have been there. Because you still had. I had school. School.

You had school. But Logan didn't even have a date. Well. It doesn't matter. We were probably supposed to bring significant others. And he ends up taking a picture with Jen's dog. Yeah. So. We encouraged him to bring a plus one. But he didn't do it. Yeah. So. It's too risky. Yeah. It is risky. But it was. Especially around these other guys. It's pretty special. It's pretty fun. I mean obviously that I'm not accustomed to having anything that allows me to do what we were able to do. No. And kill this deer. A tag like that. Never. Of any kind. And that just goes to show you. You need to play the draws, raffles. To the extent possible. Even our hunt giveaway. Whatever. Have your name in the hat. Every hat that you are interested in. Throughout your life. I mean. That you are interested in. This will be one of those bucks of my life that will be. I'm sure.

Call it a top handful that I ever kill. I'm sure of it. I mean. No matter how many others I kill. He will be probably. One of your top two or three. So basically some dimensions. Yeah. Run over the dimension. He's like almost 32 inches wide. 32 inches. You know. He's got like 37 inches of trash. And you know. Whatever. Whatever that was. A mid 180s frame. Yeah. I think that's what it was. Yeah. And you know. Just an awesome buck. He's got a great look. Bunch of big three flyers out one side. He's awesome. And a couple out the other. So he's got inlines, flyers, and just a great cool look. He does. I mean he's a cool look. Oh. He's a good looking sucker. The video. He really shows well in pictures. Shows well on the video. It's just one of those. I'm grateful. I've had some people say. How did you know how to put. How did you know to put in for that. I says.

I didn't know to put in for that. To draw the tag. It's just something you do. Yeah. You don't put in for tags like that. We talk about the raffles at times. We even publish information on them in the state sections. Yeah. As well as in our Governor, Commissioner, and Terry Raffle program. We don't play them all. Jason or I. Or any of the guys here. There's some you do. Some you feel like. Like a Montana mule there after I don't play it. No. What are you going to do? Who are you going to call? I mean. You know. To phone a friend in Montana. To think you're going to come up with even a two hundo. You might go hunt 270 or something like that. But I'm just saying. There's a few of these southwestern states. When they're wetter. Call it. You know. Nevada. Utah. Arizona. Colorado. Colorado. That one's one I'll throw some in. But you forget about it. Yeah. I'm what I'm saying.

You forget about stuff like that. Just like. The sheep hunts I put in for in raffles. Or things like that. You just put in forget. And then all of a sudden. There's always a name at the end of one of those. And this time it happened to be me. And I'm grateful I had a name in the hat. But you've earned it. You've actually played this raffle for. For multiple years. When it's good time. You know. And so it's not. Not like your. Your first time you've ever played the raffle. No. But I mean. You know. Playing it. And you know. Expecting to win it. Or two different things. You know what I mean. That's right. And same thing. I've gotten lucky up in Idaho. And done some of their super tags over the years. And killed it. Dang near. You know. We're talking 220 incher. He looks very similar actually. We actually. Two raffles. Yeah. That buck kind of looks like this buck. Yeah.

Mine wasn't a giant frame. But then he has lots. Cheaters out there. Lots of stacked cheaters. And so. Yeah. And that was a raffle. Raffle tag. Yeah. So. I guess. Yeah. My last two. 200 inchers have been that. Have been raffle tags. Yeah. Like one in Idaho. I had an Idaho one. Super tag. Four years ago. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit different there. They draw 10 of those in Idaho. In the year. That's the three by four frame. But the basal. Yes. Right. Yeah. I mean. Pretty cool. Basal points. Like you can't even hold on to it. I love that. But anyway. Pretty. Pretty awesome experience. And it was just. It was awesome that we all got to. Come home that next day. And be at the Christmas party. Yeah. We were heroes all the way around. Riding on the go. Yeah. We didn't miss it. No. So. And. So anyway. Just. It turned out awesome. It was great. But. Again. Shoot him every day of the week.

You do feel. You feel like you shot the breeder by. I felt like. Did the impossible. Well. Even with the. Even with the tag that allowed you to do what I did. And then. Yeah. You learn later. Not to. You know. I won't go into too many details. But learn later that. Some. Some people from Colorado reached out. Sent a picture to Dave. Had the buck on trail. Crammer. Like November 6th. Threw up in southern Colorado. Yes. And he came through. 100%. Like not even. He just walked through the area. Yeah. Probably wasn't even living there. Who knows how much further north he came from. He wasn't a resident deer. Because they hunted there. Oh yeah. And the season had just ended. When he walked through. After the season. Yeah. The Colorado hunters had hunted it. And then they got this buck on their place. In. That night. November 6th. Or something like that. Yeah. I mean. Not even a hunt.

The day after the second hunt. Yeah. Got a picture of him walking through. Who knows how long he lived there. But. Which makes sense. Because this deer. He was. He had no fat on him. Not an ounce. Remember how leaned out. Flabby his body was. And he had rutted and walked. This deer has learned. That he can rut early up north. And he can follow the rut. All the way. South. Yeah. And he. You never know. He might have been down on the Mexico border. Yeah. In time it was over. By January. He's a. Yeah. He's an old Mexico. But. And he's rutting. The entire way. You never know. We're teasing. No. You know. I mean. We're doing that. But. But. But. It's just kind of interesting. It was mid rut. It was mid rut when you shot him. But Colorado. Arguably over in Colorado. Oh yeah. So he had rutted there. Come on down. Yeah. Spread his genes all the way down to us. Yeah. It was crazy. And.

And we knew that they migrate. But what's really cool is. When you know what a deer did. I just wish we knew exactly where he summered. Yeah. I wish we knew more. How far. We just know where he was November 6th of this year. Which was about four weeks before I killed him. Yeah. I know where he was. Which was. And he was by the crow flies like 25 or 30 miles into. North of there. Yes. Into Colorado. Yes. So he could have came from. Who knows that much further north. And that picture. His mouth's open. Who knows why. Was he thirsty? Was he chasing a doe around a freaking drinker? I don't know what he was doing in that photo. It's kind of interesting. And it explains why he has not one ounce of fat for a deer that just kind of in New Mexico. They're just starting to rut hard. They shouldn't have burned it all off yet. A resident deer. No. No resident deer. He was. Leaned out. Leaned out.

He wasn't a big roly poly round fat lava butter. No. He wasn't. Pretty awesome. But not a chip on him either. So it's wherever he came from. He was King Kong. And he was King Kong where he ended up. And we even had the locals reach out and go, wow. And literally their words, you found a diamond. Well. I mean, they're just. The locals in New Mexico that love the units right there. They know them. They love them. They arguably are some of the best hunters down there. Know how hard it is right now. Well, and it's just like northern Arizona. I mean, you could say the strip or some of these units. Can't call them underachieved. But underwhelmed. How many big deer we thought would kill. Nevada. Yeah. Similar. Southern Utah. Nevada killed a few in one or two units. Yes. And a good stack of them in one or two units. But then kind of underwhelmed in others. On all of them. Yeah.

Just the numbers of big deer and old big deer are very low in all these southwest states. Overall populations are down. But then the populations of significant aged bucks are down. Six to eight year old plus bucks. And on top of that, I believe they just cycle. And there's intangible variables. You just don't. We don't know all the variables. Water generally equals big deer. But there's other things too. I don't know what they all are. That's right. Timing. Temperatures. Bronson. We've talked about that. Even some guys are thinking on the strip, maybe the temperatures were too cold too long. Yeah. Or certain places. Yeah. We really saw that, I think, in Utah for elk. How even in the southern part of the state, elk shed their antlers a little bit later than mule deer. But they get growing so much faster. They shed them in March. And by April, sometimes they're.

The first week in March is when the biggest bulls I used to watch just drop. And the first week in April, they got, you know, two foot of growth with three points on a side. Normally. Yeah. Well, this year it didn't even warm up until the end of May 1st of June. Like it was an icebox and snow. And we were all giddy. There's water and snow everywhere. But at some point it's too much. They're eating mahogany and yellow grass. There's no green. You know. And I think it got them off to a little slower start in certain places. And I think to some extent, certain places, we're talking, you know, we're not talking Wyoming, Colorado, or northern Utah where there was just excessive snow and survival was the biggest thing. We're just talking deer that were wintering well just didn't have incredibly good green up and early spring stuff. It was summer before it even greened up.

Some of the guys, it reminds me of antelope a little bit. Like some of the guys say these dry years, especially like Arizona and New Mexico, the really dry years are better for horn growth on antelope because it totally changes what they feed on. Their feed pattern, yeah. And so they're not just eating grasses or whatever. They're more, you know, almost a browser. And that's all interesting to me. You know, Arizona had, even though overall populations are way down, you know, and some of it, you know, the game and fish would attribute it to drought and whatnot. And then there's some outfitters that just say flat out, you know, we've had human encroachment like crazy. On the antelope. Yeah, on the antelope. On the antelope. Only antelope. But this year was an incredible year for what was produced. For the limited numbers of what you'd call antelope tags. Yeah. Kill some big bucks.

Yeah, Unit 3 killed a great buck. Unit 7 killed two slammers. You know, one over 90. I mean, just random, random. 19A was incredible. You know, 17B, 19B, all that stuff. So, it's interesting. It does come and go a bit. And even though overall populations are down, tags are down and whatnot, there's still some bright sides out there in all the different species. Actually, it was, you know, we talked about this was the Arizona elk. And so, I guess, probably just beating a dead horse on it. But there was some units that produced some incredible bulls. And then other units that just saw no rut activity at all. Hardly visible rut activity. All the cows got bred. But just saying, you know, tougher hunting conditions for archery elk hunters. And so, anyway, it just, you just kind of, you just never know. And you want to burn your points at the perfect time in the perfect year.

The perfect, you know, unit choice. Unit phase. Temperature gradient. Yeah. Season date. With the perfect camping spot. The last two weeks of September, the archery season day's never been lighter. The ice that never melts in your cooler. I mean, it's just the perfect. And here I am and there's no bugling. Or there's no whatever. And you're just, how many tags have we eaten? And I want to blame somebody. I want somebody's head, you know. Well, and what? I burned 20 points or 25 points on stuff and I've eaten tags left and right. You ate a significant tag or two or three or four this year. And even though you had some great successes, you just think. Oh, yeah. Just have others to work. The average hunter would be calling and saying, y'all told me to do this. And quite frankly, it was a different experience.

And I used to laugh at when people said the weather caused me not to have a good hunt. It's a pretty significant factor. It definitely can be. Can a guy say he eats his words once in a while? Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? You know, the older you get, I used to think that, you know, people would say pray for rain. You know, that's not a good management strategy. But quite frankly, it's not a bad option. You probably should pray for rain. Yeah, that's right. You know. Well, and just like a couple of these stories we've said, yours with the whitetail, mine with this tag in New Mexico, A, getting the tag, and then B, just having a deer show up that obviously is kind of a no-brainer. Sometimes stuff just happens because you're out there trying to give a heck. And not that I'm saying, hey, if you're out on a raffle tag, you still need to get lucky. But you still kind of do sometimes.

Just like you on your whitetail, you're not from Iowa. You've got some pitchers in the summer. You go out there two or three days early hanging stands. And I text you that morning saying, yep, I'm in the stand. And two hours later, you say, I killed my buck. You sent me a picture. Here's a dead buck. And I'm like, what? Two hours ago, he said he's just sitting in the stand. Now he's killed one. And watching a red squirrel. A big red one. And I'm like, and so sometimes stuff literally just happens. I call it falling in your lap. It fell in my lap. With good planning and good intentions and all that. And then there's other hunts that grind for 40 days. And you do everything you can and hunt harder than you've ever had. How about 60 days? And you can't make something go right. How about 60 plus days? You can't make it go right sometimes. You have to accept both sides of it.

You be grateful when that happens your way. And when it doesn't, you can't blame something. I want to talk, just going back to that Iowa one little bit. It turns out there's another guy that was hunting this deer. He had permission on the property next to me. And it turns out at 10 o'clock, he decided to get out, to readjust the stand location that he was in. And at 10.09, this deer comes by me. He blew the deer. He got too close to his bedding. And we know, he knows it. He has since reached out. He found us somehow on the web. The big wide web. He's in Iowa. You haven't even posted the deer. No. And he heard about us a little bit. Showed a picture and said, some guy from Arkansas killed my buck. Here's his picture because the landowner's talking stuff. And the guy, he showed his buddy. And the buddy goes, that's Jason Carter from Epic. That's not, he doesn't live in Arkansas. What?

How do I talk to him? Pretty soon I've got an email in my inbox. And it's this guy. What's he saying? I didn't know this. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So then we compare notes. He gets out at what? 10 o'clock? No. So he says, dude. What day did you kill him? Yeah. Oh, yeah. And we have 14,000 texts right here. Shows me all the pictures of the bucks he's hunted over the years. History. This. 1,400 different things. Just really into it. A local that is just really into it. He's taught me a lot, too. Just, you just learn a lot. Like, as addicted as we are to mule deer, some of these guys are as sick as we are, if you can believe it, over whitetail. Oh, yeah. For sure. And so, anyway, it's awesome. We have a great relationship. Everything's fine. He's ended up sending me a SD card of all the photos he has of him. Yada, yada, yada. And he's very complimentary, but just knows.

He says, dude, I have bad luck. But he's killed a 201 inch. Yeah. I mean, that 201, something went right that year. Something went right. And he smashed it. And he did a great job. And he's, but he says, arguably, I've only been hunting these things really hard for a certain amount of years. I have to go back through the text log. But he's on it. And, anyway, just so happened, he bumps the buck. I think the buck's going for a stroll like he's supposed to in the textbook. And, no, he got bumped. And because I just sat there, and I'm figuring I'm going to sit there all day, all day. And so I'm just sitting there, and here comes this buck. And no wonder he was crushing the place. Like, he got bumped and decided he was out of there. And who knows when it's your turn. That's all. Usually that's me. I would have been him. That's my luck. That's right. You know?

More and more, more and more than we hunt. I mean, you've heard about a couple of success stories we talked about today. We don't have time to talk about the failures we had this last year. It makes me feel better. Just the same year we're talking about, 2023. And you have to be willing to accept both sides of it and just keep after it. A great tag, a great high number of points, the perfect season dates, all that, doesn't entitle you to anything. It's unfortunate. And it feels like it's getting harder and harder and harder. We alluded to it in Colorado earlier how high numbers of points, it's almost a curse because your expectations are so far out of whack with what probably is going to happen. Yeah. It's not that you're setting yourself up probably to be disappointed before you even go to Colorado. But anymore, you and I were looking at just boxy, beautiful four points.

I remember on your hunt, we talked about this. Oh, we saw a buck in the afternoon that was a beautiful, I don't know, call it a 180. I don't know what he was. 176 and three quarters. Whatever. But just a beautiful buck. I stopped and turned around. When was the last time I turned around for 176 inches? And willowy. But good looking. But I'm just saying that's where we're at on things a little bit. But even at that, you should absolutely be out there. I'm so excited for this upcoming year. I can't stand it. It's the same as it always is. New plans. My old plans were terrible. Made all the wrong decisions. Same as I have for 20 years prior to now. And this upcoming year, I'm going to have all the perfect plans. You know what I mean? Okay, so we were going to talk about Canada Whitetail in Alberta. I don't want to. I want to wait until Josh is here. Because there's some one-liners.

You have some stories. It's so funny. We'll do that maybe next week. Yeah. We, well, anyway, I don't even want to talk about it, I guess. To have Josh here, you know how Josh is. Josh is a card. He's a storyteller. So, and there's some funny stories. But it's next level stuff sitting all day. Guys think they can do it pretty soon. Your mind just needs to go numb if you're going to do it for 10 days in a row. And that's kind of what happened. All right, Bronson. It is all but Christmas time. Everybody, we wish you a Merry Christmas. We hope your families are awesome. We hope you have a great Christmas day, Christmas Eve, Christmas day with your families. And, you know, how blessed are we to be able to do this kind of stuff? How blessed all of us are. Everybody listening to the podcast. You're listening because you get to hunt. And how fortunate we are.

And to be able to play the system and live in America, quite frankly. Have the freedoms we have. Just incredible. Of course, we all get frustrated with politics and things like that. Things don't go our way. And, or we feel like things are going to heck in a handbasket. But we are very fortunate to be able to do what we do. Be able to bear arms. And to be out in the field. Bronson, you and I ordered a pistol today. How about that? That's right. We don't get a little 10 mil coming in case we need to smash something big up in Alaska. You never know. So, kind of fun. Kind of fun, right? And so, anyway. Also, Bronson, maybe talk about just a little bit about our optics. We've got, we're just loaded to the gills. And guys are chilling out at Christmas. I know you've spent a little bit of money on some Christmas gifts and things. But if you're looking at optics, there's no better time.

Well, and the reason for that is a lot of optics companies have a traditional price increase about the first of the year. Calendar year. Yeah. January 1st. And that is coming for some of them. You know, it's, you know, doesn't happen on some. It's announced basically the week it happens. But we've heard it's going to be happening. So, if there's something you've been putting off that you want, you might give us a call before the end of the year. Because after the first of the year, it's not that we're raising our prices. It's just our cost of buying those same things is going up. That has to get passed on to whoever's buying them from us. So, it's a great time. We've stocked up heavily on inventory. We've also, as you've noticed, and probably got emails of or seen it in the e-mag version of our January magazine, come out for our new tripod line.

We have both the backpacker light version as well as an all-around ultra, as we call it. So, those are two additions we've made to the Epic Optics, I guess, side of things and business here. And we're obviously now starting to get to, once the calendar flips, show season will be kicking off. We'll have a crew of us going down to Dallas Safari Club, as well as the Sheep Show. As well as always, we're going to have the whole crew up at the Western Hunting Conservation Expo in mid-February in Salt Lake City. It'll also be walk and shot. Yeah, walk and shot show in between, working with some new advertisers, new options and products and things like that. We'll maybe be showcasing shortly thereafter. So, yeah, we've done this now for, what, three or four years? And we kind of know what our members really like as far as selling optics and building inventory and keeping good inventory.

We've lived and learned through, you know, the COVID era. That's fortunately way behind us in the rearview mirror. Although, I think you had COVID the other day, boss. I do, too. Monsters still don't taste good. And that's a problem. Yeah. Because they're amazing. So, but anyway, we're looking forward to seeing you at some of those shows. If there's a particular piece of glass or something you've been interested in looking at, looking through, holding, please plan on stopping by at one of our booths at those three shows that I just mentioned. And we'll go through the ins and outs of it. I guarantee we're going to have very aggressive pricing, especially at those venues. We have them every day here at Epic Outdoors, but we're going to be maybe a little bit more aggressive at some of those. We're given some latitude to do that by our reps. We are.

But then also, right now, between now and January 1st, we have 2023 pricing and member pricing on that. So, give us a holler if you're looking. If you're looking, now's the time. And we'd be happy to help you. But anyway, that's what we're supposed to do because this podcast is powered by Epic Outdoors. How about that? And anyway, everybody, we sincerely, Bronson and I and the crew, wish you a very Merry Christmas. And Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Yeah. Be safe out there. Get ready for 2024. It's coming quick, but enjoy your time here this next week. Like Jason said, be thankful for what we have. Great time of year to be with family, friends, things like that. Be safe. And here's to look into 2024. We'd like to thank all of our sponsors here at Epic Outdoors. Handcrafted, quality, precision rifles from start to finish.

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Check them out at www.stealthcam.com or call us to order today. Here at Epic Optics, we are a verified dealer for Swarovski, Zeiss, Leica, Vortex, Stealth Cam, and more. Call us today to visit about the available optics we have and what would be right for you. Or visit epicoptics.com. For only $150 a year, you get 9 issues of the Epic Outdoors magazine and unlimited access to our hunt consultants, as well as access to our verified research website. To see all the other member benefits, visit epicoutdoors.com. If you hunt multiple states, our services are essential. The Epic Outdoors License Application Service is for you if you ever miss deadlines or would like help developing your long, medium, and short-term license application goals. Give us a call today at 435-263-0777 to learn more.