EP 33: Mule Deer Addiction with Robby Denning

Here's this giant buck walking over the rim. And the more escapement they have, the more opportunity they have to get six to nine years old. These bucks know what they're doing and they know how to survive. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter here with the Epic Outdoors podcast. I've got an awesome guest, a mule deer fanatic and freak. Oh, Robbie Denning on the line with us. How you doing, Robbie? Good, good, man. I'm glad you, really appreciate you spending some time with us today. Anyway, I'll let you introduce yourself to a degree, but I did want to, you know, just kind of, just give you a little bit of an informal introduction, the best of my knowledge. But I know you and I have known each other for years and years and, of course, had a mutual respect for each other. And I know you've been knocking down some giant mule deer and kind of made that your life's passion, which is similar to mine. And anyway, but you're doing it up there north, usually, it seems like, there in Idaho and Wyoming and the high country for the most part.

But anyway, I'll let you kind of take it from there. Yeah, sure, you bet. And I'm thankful to be on, and like I was saying before we got on the air, I really have enjoyed your podcast. And there's about three or four of them I listen to, and one of them's always yours. Learned a lot. And I've kind of learned from way back when that just listening to other hunters that have had similar experiences, and you can learn from everybody. It doesn't matter if they're no more than you or no less than you. Everybody's had experiences, and so it's just great to be able to share them, and I appreciate you having me on. You bet. Yeah, I appreciate that. And that's right. I listen to a lot of podcasts, too. In fact, they're quite addicting. Yeah, definitely. Makes the drive out to check those trail cameras or to go scout and go by a lot faster, huh? Yeah, it sure does.

So, well, give us a little bit of an introduction. Like, I mean, maybe even from birth, I guess. Just bring us up to speed on who you are and what got you to where you're at. Yeah, you betcha. Before we get into that official stuff, there's something I wanted to share with you guys. Just take a couple minutes. I wanted to share with you this recurrent nightmare I've been having. And like you said, we've known each other for a long time, but the dream always is the same. I find this giant Idaho buck. I mean, he is a pig. Like, over 40 inches wide, you know, classic southeast Idaho buck, just a hog. Massive. I mean, his bases are as big as your ankles. And he's got more junk hanging on him than Dennis Rodman. I mean, this is a buck, Jason. And, you know, even better than that, I find you about a month before the season. He's in a place that I know really well.

I've never seen a deer hunter there. It's kind of one of those dumb, out-of-the-way places. And I'm pumped. I mean, there's a good chance of me killing this buck. But typical Robbie Denning, I just can't leave him alone. And, you know, I'm up there every day. I want to figure out where he sleeps, where he eats, where he drinks, where he goes to the bathroom, where he makes love. I mean, whatever I can find out about this buck, I want to find out. And so I end up overdoing it, and I lose my job. But, you know, like Dad said, you can always get another job. You're probably not going to find another 40-incher. And I notice when I drive into work every day, McDonald's is hiring. So I got that base covered. But consequently, you know, the wife, she's not too happy with the whole deal besides being gone and, you know, losing the job, all that stuff.

So on the few nights I am home, she won't even let me near. I mean, not even a kiss. And that's all right. I figure this will be over soon. I'll just sleep in the garage. The kids, they kind of feel sorry for me. So they come out and see me. They're a little closer to my maturity level. So, you know, they get me through this time. But finally, the day before the opener is here. And you know how it is, Jason. You are just so pumped. You know where there's a giant buck. You've got a good chance of killing him. I just know I'm going to have him in my fry pan by the evening of the opener. So I load all my gear in the truck. Of course, it's been packed for weeks, repacked, rifle sighted in. And I'm ready to go. And I head for the hills. And, you know, the trail, it's not even really a trailhead. It's just kind of an old sheepherder's path. People don't even really know where it is.

You've got to four dig up the mountain to get to it. I pull in. And there's Jason Carter's truck. And, dude, I wake up in a cold sweat screaming, no! Oh!

I don't really know what the dream means, but I keep having it. And I have a feeling I'm not the only guy. Well, I hope to be chasing a deer like you're explaining one of these days. If you find one, just let me know about him. No, I'm hiding, dude. I will disappear. In fact, when I quit returning your calls, you'll know that's what happens. Oh, my gosh. That's classic. Anyways, man, I grew up in southeast Idaho. I live in a little town. I own Idaho. It's just outside Idaho Falls. Like you, Jason, you know, dads are the ones that kind of plant this seed. And like Garth did with you, my dad did with me. He was taking me out even before I had a license. And, you know, I was cold. I was tired. I didn't even know if I liked it. But he kind of planted that seed. And as I got older, my dad was a big buck hunter. He hunted a few other species. That was his primary focus.

It just lit my fire and got me excited to do it. I realized how hard it was. And this was, you know, in the 80s when there was, you know, a few more big mule deer around, a few more opportunities to chase them. But they were still hard. They were really hard to get, especially the big ones. And so it just kind of turned into a quest. You know, my dad always challenged me. He said, anybody can kill a big buck once. He says, guys spend enough time in the woods. Eventually, they'll probably get lined up on one. He says, but it's the second one that counts. He says, if you can do it twice, if you can do it on purpose, then you're learning. And I just kind of took that on as my mission, you know, testing out a little bit, see if he was right. Like you, the further you get into it, the further you get into it. And I just, it just became my passion.

And I ended up changing my college major to English just so I could write. I was inspired by a lot of the early writers of the 80s. You know, Dwight Shue, you know, Chuck Adams, anybody that wrote about mule deer. Kurt Garner was a big one. And I just wanted to do that at some point in my life, too. And so to my dad's chagrin, you know, I changed my major, changed my career. You know, I definitely have made a lot less money than I would have sticking with an engineering degree. But I wouldn't change a thing, Jason. Just looking back, I'm glad I'm doing what I'm doing. I mean, right now I have more jobs than I can count to just pay the bills and make ends meet. But we're doing fine. You know, I'm married, happily married 17 years. I've got three great little kids, Cash, Sophia, and Grace. And, you know, they're all still home. They're all, you know, and they're 11 and 11 and 15.

So real busy house. Wow. Stay-at-home mom. But it's all good. I wouldn't trade any of it for, you know, a better job or an easier life. I really wouldn't. Wow. And so you graduate college. I mean, I assume you graduated college and then got a job right after college. Or what have you been doing? Oh, man, I've always been on a different plan. I changed my major when I was about two years into it. So I had all my generals done and everything. I changed it from engineering to English. And, of course, you know, when you do that, you've got to get a job right away because, you know, you're going to make a lot of money. And I started working at a health club when I was 18 years old, you know, just part-time vacuuming their floors.

Well, by the time I'd made that change in college, you know, I'd been there like two or three years and working at their front desk and kind of got a passion for fitness, too. And so I went on the 10-year plan for my degree because I didn't want to go into debt. Even at an early age, I just – debt scared me mostly for the chance. I knew I couldn't afford to go deer hunting if I was in debt. So I just paid for school out of my pocket as I went. I only took like one or two loans the whole time I went through school. So consequently, it literally took me 10 years to get through school. I would never go in the fall for obvious reasons. You know, I would pack it all into the spring semester, you know, working my job year-round. And so I never graduated until I was 33. And by that time, I had kind of built a career in the fitness industry. Okay.

And, you know, fast forward, I've still got that same job. That's one of the three jobs I've got right now, and I manage a big crew of personal trainers. Oh, great. Well, that's awesome. Yeah, I noticed – and we'll jump into this a little bit later – but in your book, you had quite a bit on fitness in there. And anyway, that's good. I didn't know all that. Yeah, it keeps you from getting fat.

Well, that's good. Something's got it because as we get older, things change. They do. Well, good. And so you got cranking, and then you were always hunting big deer through 18 years old, through 33 years old. I mean, when did you, you know, when did that passion really gain some traction? It hit hard when I was about 23. And I talk about this in my book, too, and read Kurt Darner's book, kind of already had that passion. And then when I saw somebody doing it on purpose, getting it done, it just sparked me up. And, you know, I know Kurt has had some problems. I don't want to gloss over that. I realize he has. You know, he's put all that behind him. He's hunting again. But the guy still knew deer hunting. And I kind of became – he kind of became a mentor to me over the years, him and other guys.

And so by the time I was about 23, it was pretty much all I could think about, to a fault, you know, to a fault. And that was when I could change my major over and everything. But I really focused on it from the time I was about 22, 23. Really wanted to take a big buck. You know, up here, everything's width. And, you know, it wasn't really score back then. It kind of is becoming that now. But, you know, just looking for wide bucks, heavy bucks, nasty bucks, kind of like the one in my nightmare there I told you about. Which, by the way, I've never seen one. And when I was 20, 26, I found – let me back up. Just a tiny bit. That winter in 92, 93 changed everything. Yeah. It was really hard to find deer in those years after that. And, you know, I was scouting from Colorado to Idaho. And it was still tough. But it's kind of like it is after those hard winters. A few giants show up.

And, yeah, I don't know if it's just genetically they're the best bucks that make it through the winter. They were heavier in the body. Yeah. Maybe they didn't run as hard. I don't know. Just more prepared. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But it seems like, you know, a couple of years after those winters – I've seen this a couple times – you just see some pigs. And so in 95, I found a 35-inch typical just in an OTC unit here in southeast Idaho. And he was awesome, Jason. He's one of the few Boone and Crockett typicals I've seen. I threw everything I had at him. I found him in late August. I ended up hunting the buck like 24 days between the end of August archery and the rifle, which was the end of October. You know, I come off of that mountain a changed man. And I didn't get him. I didn't even see him once after I got him. That makes it hard. I don't get that kind of buck.

And living in the kind of place that they're really just hard to re-find. You know, a lot of cover. But I came off that mountain a little disheartened. But I remember, you know, all my uncles, my dad, everybody, you know, they were all buck hunters. But every one of them was like, our hat's off to you. We've never seen anybody put forth such an effort. And it just kind of encouraged me along the way. And that same summer when I found that buck, I had found about a 200-inch, kind of a nasty-looking buck, pretty heavy, up-and-coming. You could tell he was a little bit younger buck. Didn't even end up hunting him because I liked this 35-inch or better. So the next summer, which is when I was 27, so I'm back on the story here, I promise. When I was 27, that summer, I started scouting for that buck. Checked up there a couple times. Didn't see him. And went back, you know, late August.

Was kind of deciding, like, where am I going to hunt? You know, season's going to open here in a few weeks. Our archery season opened August 30th. And I found him. And, oh, man, he had just exploded. And I've heard you talk about bucks like this, Jason. You know, they just kind of limp along three, four, five years old. They're looking pretty good. You know, you're kind of hoping you see him again. And then when you do, you just almost don't even recognize him. And I got to look at him about a half an hour on a fairly open slope. He was with, like, ten other bucks. And like the big ones always are, he kind of stayed back in the trees. But I could still see him. He bedded down on a little knob. And as the sun kind of come around the mountain, I got about a minute where I got to look at him in the sunlight. And he was awesome. I could tell he was at 220 to 240 range.

You know, I'm still not the best at scoring. But, you know, how it is when you see a buck like that. You don't really end up scoring. You just know that's the one. So I hunted him during archery season. They put a big herd of sheep in there. Got to know the sheep herder pretty good. Didn't really see the – never saw him. Saw some of his compadres. You know, you're wondering if they ran them all out of the country. There's a couple other toads in there, too. Because, you know, this is about, what, three? That's the hard winter. This is 96. Yeah. And there's another buck in there that looks like he's got a Christmas tree growing out of his head. He's probably got 30 points on his antlers. I think his mainframe was like a two-point, you know, that kind of buck. Just a stag-looking thing. Yeah, exactly. And you could tell he was a really old buck. He was really, really fat, really big.

So I was happy with whatever. You know, I mean, I was there to kill one of those two bucks. Archery season ended. I never saw either of those like it always is. And after they took that herd of sheep out of there, there was nobody around. There was no reason not to see these bucks. But you know how it is. They just hide. And I, there were so many big bucks that year, Jason. I ended up finding about a 230 non-typical just up on the foothills east of Idaho Falls here. Went up scouting with a friend. He had some access to some private property. It really wasn't very good. A lot of people could hunt it. But he was like, hey, ride up with me. You know, I'll take you to breakfast. Kind of show me how to find these deer. We drive up this little canyon. And up on a little rim, it's kind of low rim rock, sagebrush type country. You know, Aspen sage zone.

And here's this giant buck walking over the rim. I mean, and it was just classic. The guy I was with thought he was an elk. And it was that kind of deal. I'm like, no, that is not an elk. And I forgot all about that high country buck. This buck was in a spot that was easier to get to. I was kind of worried somebody would kill him. You know, because there was a fair amount of people that hunted in there, even though it was private land. We threw everything we had at that buck. It opened October 5th that year. You know, we were camping out in the dirt, glassing. I mean, we hunted eight days. Never laid eyes on him. Another guy that came in there killed one of the bucks he was with. When we saw him, he was with another four-point. That buck got killed. And, you know, I'm just thinking, this buck's gone. He's been, it's not that big of a ranch. You know, there's other ranches around.

I think he's probably even pushed off, you know, all the stuff you tell yourself. But I just kept at it. My poor friend, he had gone home. He chalked me up to the loony bin. And about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, I'm getting ready to head up the hill. I was saddling my horse. And here goes a truck driving by with a great big antler sticking out of the back. Dumped in my pickup, and I headed down to the road because they had to go out the main gate, and I knew they'd stop at the gate. And they got that buck. And it was a kid. He was a nice kid. He was probably 20 years old. His dad was a doctor. They had taken, like, a sticker out of the landowner's eye. You know, just a couple weeks ahead, and the landowner, oh, yeah, come on up and hunt the place. Sure. That kind of a deal.

The kid drives in at 1 o'clock in the afternoon, kills this buck 300 yards from where we'd seen him, you know, a month before. Had hunted there the whole time, never saw him. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm pretty disheartened, very disheartened. I just can't believe it even happened. You know, but I shook the guy's hand. It doesn't matter. He got it. That's how it was. I got home. Threw up. Threw up. Right. Licked my wounds. And you know how it is about one night of sleep and one good meal, and you're fired up, ready to go. I had the horses in the trailer by the next afternoon. I headed for that high country buck. Yeah. And just as a big snowstorm hit and just as elk season hit, or elk season opens October 15th. So I got there that night. Sure. Camps everywhere, guys everywhere, just kind of the same deal I had just left on the private land.

But, and I didn't even know if anybody had killed that buck. You know, there are deer hunters that go in there. I didn't even know if he was around. And so I hit it hard. I hunted six days straight. It was like the perfect storm. And I don't mean that as a cliche. We got just pounded with blizzard conditions like you usually get in November. We were getting them in October. I don't know if you remember that winter in 96. It started pretty early everywhere. I remember the drought. I remember the drought of 96 down here. It was hard. It made it hard. I had a tag over here in the Alton CWMU. And anyway, it was just tough on the Ponceau. It was tough, tough, tough to find a big deer in 96. But anyway, keep going. Yeah. And that's how it was here. We had that drought all summer. But when it hit, it hit. And within like six days, I was hunting in 18 to 24 inches of snow.

Almost enough to make the deer leave. And I think most of the time they would have left, but it hit a little bit early. And I just kept hunting that same place where it's seen. And of course, I hadn't seen him. Saw some other bucks. Hell, cunters everywhere. Guys shooting little three-point bucks and everything. Sure. You know, just about as disheartening as you get. I climb up on a little rim after tracking this buck one morning and thought it was him. Another hunter got on him. I just had to let that buck go. And so I'm headed back to camp. And I get up on this little rim, glass this little basin one more time. There stands that buck that I've seen two years in a row. This is the third time I've seen him. He's in the same 800-yard circle he was before. He probably was the whole time or very close to it. A lot of timber, a lot of aspen. And praise the Lord. I paste him. I get him.

That's the long story to how did I get it. That buck lit my fire, Jason. Even though it was my first really big buck, I just took the torch of what Dad said, that if you can do it once, then show us you can do it twice. And I just love that whole experience. As hard as it was and, you know, the emotional roller coaster you're on, you know, finding big bucks losing them, other people killing them. I know you've been through all that stuff. Yeah. But when you come out the other side, you're a better hunter for it. And you want to do it again. You know, it just lights a fire inside of you. So, you know, that was 20 years ago, Jason. And here we are now. Yeah, that was 20 years ago. And so, you know, having said that, you've learned a lot in the last 20 years. If you had that opportunity again, and it was 1996 again, do you think you'd have killed that first buck knowing what you know now?

That's a great question. And I've thought about that for a lot of years. I kind of subscribe to the scout big, hunt small philosophy. You know, you got to cover a lot of ground. You got to look around. You got to look at as many bucks as you can. But once the season's open, you better focus. I hunted right where he was at. Now, when I say right where he's at, that kind of square mile right there probably didn't focus enough on that canyon he was in because there was a road in it. And, you know, when I hunted it, I mean, I hiked in there a couple of times. And, you know, I'd ride my horse around the rim of it in glass. But I just didn't hit it hard enough. Now, it doesn't mean he was there the whole time. You know how they are. They can move 600 yards in a night. And that's a long ways. You know, if they jump over a canyon, put a couple of quickie pockets between them.

But, yeah, Jason, I think I probably would have just said, you know, he was right here. There's cover here. There's water.

I should probably just spend my time right here. Could I have killed him or not? I don't know. I don't know. I just know I'd have been a little more focused than what I was. Well, there was a, you know, it's funny you talk about that with the roads. There was a deer I killed in 2005. I was pre-scouting him. I was glassing him. I was actually just, you know, up on a knob glassing him. Had him and just watching him. And the road, there was a road into the area, which obviously I'm taking to get into there. Probably, I don't know, I want to say 800 yards from where he was or 700 yards. And here comes a truck. I can see this truck and dust cloud from way back. And so I know this truck's coming. Truck probably gets within a half mile or so of where the deer's at. And the deer's between, so I'm beyond the deer. The deer is between me and the road. So he's closer to the road by ways.

I'm glassing him and I watch him. And pretty soon he kind of looks in the direction of the truck. And then he's feeding on bitter brush that's taller than his head. I mean, giant, giant bitter brush. And he walks around the bitter brush and sits there and watches the truck as the truck drives by. He watches through the brush. And the truck drives by. Pretty soon you don't hear it rattling anymore. The sound's gone. He flickers his tail and goes back to feeding. And it's the most crazy thing. And they adapt. They learn how to deal with that. And there's some deer that never learn that because maybe they weren't raised by the road. Maybe they didn't. You know what I mean? All of that. I mean, it kind of depends on where they're raised. And they get accustomed to their environment and what they call home. And so I think if there's roads, they get used to it.

And they know how to deal with it. They're never going to be whitetails. They're never going to love dealing with people. And I'm not saying whitetails love it, but they thrive in agriculture. Mule deer just never will be that. But they learn. They learn how to deal with it. Yeah. And once you see a deer do that, it just kind of changes everything for you. And, you know, I wrote a whole thing in my book about, you know, I don't just hunt the backcountry because those places like what you just said, they can grow giant bucks. And, you know, it can't be slaughtered with hunters. It can't be eroded every single place. But it's got to have enough escapement. But once you see that, you kind of figure out these bucks know what they're doing and they know how to survive. And it's just helped me kind of slow down a little bit and look a little harder.

And instead of, well, nothing here, let's head over to the next unit. Sure. Right. Yep. I agree with you. And the more escapement they have, the more opportunity they have to get to be six to nine years old. And then the more chance there are of having, you know, bigger deer and the kind of deer that you're looking for. And so that's what you're talking about with the roads. It's that we were up in Idaho this last year. And, of course, my brother-in-law, Jeff, works with us here at Epic. But, anyway, he found a big deer. And there was roads all around it. And where I'm just like, man, we've got to kill this deer. And, anyway, it wasn't, you know, the first time he got blown out, which was opening morning, you know, the deer's gone. Like, and he gets it. Like, he knows where he's going and he knows what he's going to do. And he'll let you look at him before the season.

But the first time you screw up on him and some of those deer, you have one opportunity. When they're, especially when they're seven or eight years old, they get it. They didn't get that age by being stupid. So. And he didn't come back to that roaded area, right? No, he didn't. Right. Like, it seems like there'll be something that can hold them there when there's no hunting pressure. I don't know if it's the water, the brush, the aspect. Yeah. And, like you said, you got one chance. Yeah, you got one chance. And they're gone. Mm-hmm. But other places, you know, as long as there's a little bit of security cover there in that first buck we talked about that the other kid got, that's what I finally realized is that even though a lot of people hunted up there, they're heavy, quakey pockets. You know, he could get away from that road.

And once he was away from that road, you know, it was another half a mile to another road, and there was a lot of cover between it. Yeah, that totally. You know, they know those spots. That totally makes sense. And that's the thing. This particular area didn't have any cover. And so, you know, and he's probably still within a mile. There were some, you know, deep ravines and, you know, five-foot-tall sagebrush and burrowed-out beds. And, I mean, there's escapement, so to speak, but, yeah, not right there where he was at. So, well, that's quite interesting. Let's see. You brought up Kurt Darner, so we might as well just go there for a minute. I know in your book you gave him a pretty good plug just for, you know, the spark and for your friendship is what you wrote. And I just kind of wanted to visit, I guess, about that since you brought it up, just your relationship with him.

And, of course, he inspired you, which is awesome. And I just, he was a little bit before my time, just a little bit. Obviously, I know, you know, probably what everybody knows. But you can't follow the guy for loving mule deer. And, you know, having said that, you know, it also doesn't make right what people do that's, you know, that's not right. Right. So, anyway, but, yeah, talk to us a little bit about your relationship with him and just your experiences there. Yeah, well, you know, he had written that book, you know, How to Find Giant Books. It came out in 83. I read it in, like, 89. It was still pretty fresh. And it was, it was just what my dad had been talking about, that you can do this stuff on purpose. You know, if you focus on big bucks, you can kill them. And so here was somebody that was just pretty plain spoken, you know, laid it out. Tons of pictures of big bucks.

You know, you couldn't dispute what he knew. And, you know, I just kind of became, like a lot of guys my age back then, a Kurt Darner groupie. And he was, he's just a nice guy. I mean, he'd answer his phone when you'd call him. And I just called him out of the blue, probably early 92. I had a Colorado tag I was doing some research on. And just called him and, you know, got some advice on how to hunt Colorado. Didn't really necessarily talk about the unit. I could tell he got needle on that stuff all the time. But he was just a nice guy. And I ended up calling him, I don't know, like a year later, he remembered me, you know. And you could just tell that he didn't mind talking to you. He wasn't above you. Yeah. And as time went by and I hunted Colorado more, you know, he invited me down to his house. They were, he was big into banquets back then, raising money for mule deer.

And he invited me to a couple of those. I got to know him real well and his wife, Paula. And, you know, Kurt had some problems. You know, that buck on his, the cover of his books disputed as being killed by another hunter. Sure. Um, and, you know, he's never, never had any poaching charges. He, he got, um, he got pinched for, he, he had an, he had a high fence elk operation in the, I don't know, mid 2000s, somewhere in there. And, uh, a state owned elk had got into the, um, into the enclosure. Yeah. And, you know, Kurt's one of them good old boys that, Hey, come get your elk. They didn't come get him. So Kurt sold him. You can't sell, you can't sell wild game. That's like cattle wrestling from the government, you know? Yeah. So he got in a pinch with that and he just didn't do it right. And that's the thing I want people to understand. I'm not condoning anything that he did.

I'm not, I'm not brushing over that. Sure. But as far as a genuine human being that could get it done on mule deer, you can learn a ton from the guy. Yeah. And he was a very nice man, a very loving man. I mean, he just, he just kind of opened his whole life to me. And yeah, he had a lot of groupies like me that were bugging him all the time. And, you know, I'm sure, sure that it was just easier to ignore us, but he wasn't that way. And so as I got to know him and I guided for him, he was an outfitter as well. I learned a bunch from him. I got to go hunting with him once. Just him and I had some Colorado tags and just a good friend. And, you know, Kurt, Kurt's pushing 80 now and he's still hunting. He's still leaving gut piles everywhere. He got his license back a couple of years ago. And he's just an inspiration to me. And I don't want to just throw him away.

I mean, I might make a mistake someday. You might make a mistake. And the hunting world, you know, we're even seeing it this week. They're pretty unforgiving. And I get that. I mean, guys that are kind of leaders, you know, they need to lead clean lives, tell the truth, you know, all that stuff. But I guess I just wanted people to know I'm not going to duck and run because he's had some problems. He is my friend. I would want my friends to stand by me. I don't have to agree with everything a friend does, but they're still my friend. And that's how Kurt is. You know, I just talked to him a week ago. He's on fire about hunting. It's you or me. I mean, you know, he's out looking for tags right now. He didn't draw. He's, you know, he's going to go guide a hunter. I mean, he's just, I hope I'm doing that when I'm 80, put it that way. Absolutely. Well, that's quite interesting.

You know, I've got to commend you for that attitude. I think it's one of those things people make mistakes, and it's nice if they change. I think what's hard on people more than anything is maybe they look up to them and they feel let down. Like they feel like they were, you know, they feel stupid, you know, like, geez, you know, I looked up to this guy. And he wasn't who I thought he was nor who he professed to be. And so that's the hard thing more than maybe the actual crime or whatever. Yep. And I went through that too, Jason. I had those same emotions when that whole thing all happened with the state-owned elk. And, you know, I had to testify at his trial as a character witness. Yeah. And I didn't have to, but I wanted to. And so, dude, I felt all those emotions too.

But I guess it got down, at the end of the day when I wrote my book, I thought, I am a liar if I don't tell people the influence this guy has had on me in a positive way. Yeah. And he helped me become, in a big way, the deer hunter that I am. Yeah. And I just felt a little false, you know, not talking about it. And, you know, I got a black eye. I mean, some of my worst reviews on my book out there are because I mentioned Kurt. But, like I said, he's my friend. And I hope my friends don't abandon me if I ever screw something up. He just had a big influence. I guess we could go on and on, but I just can't say enough good about him. And I guess we'll leave it with this. I understand he's had some problems, but he's done a lot of good for mule deer and he inspired a generation. I'll leave it at that. Great. Well, so what, obviously, you know, you've hunted Wyoming and Idaho a lot.

I mean, is that mostly the country that you've concentrated in for big muleys or the high country? Or, I mean, I know you've hunted Nevada and you've hunted other states. Of course, we've talked about Colorado. But what kind of country, I mean, I'm a desert guy. I've hunted the high country. But, you know, we all have things we like. So let's talk about that a little bit. Yeah, sure. I started hunting in kind of this low, brushy southeast Idaho country. You know, kind of the aspen, conifer, serviceberry zone. You know, a lot of bitter brush. Just prime mule deer country. You know, basically from Soda Springs, draw a circle around there, 50 to 100 miles. That's where I grew up hunting mule deer. And it's prime mule deer country. Like you said, Idaho's not managed very good. But it's got the best genetics, too. Best genetics in the world right there. Exactly, Jason.

It is a mini Colorado over there. It is just unreal, the bucks that can come out of it. But right now it's just struggling. It's, you know, just got a lot of things against it right now. You know, hunting pressure and, you know, just management and stuff like that. But anyways, that's where I grew up hunting. So that's kind of what I got used to. But in the early 80s, people were just kind of just starting to discover the high country. When I talk about high country, around here, that's above 8,500 feet to 10,000 feet. We don't have the 12,000-foot peaks around here that Colorado does. And, you know, I live right on the Idaho-Wyoming border. So, you know, everything north and south of me that doesn't have any trees in it, that was considered the high country back then. Hardly anybody went there, just a few Basque sheep herders.

And, you know, once in a while, an elk hunter would wander up there. And in the early 80s, mid-80s, I started hearing of some guys, you know, getting way back in there. The Hoback was becoming discovered, partly because of Kurt Darner. And guys were just kind of figuring it out that those early seasons, you know, before it snows, you could kill those big deer. And it just inspired me. Ike Ellis, a local hunter around here, killed a 211 net Boone and Crockett buck in just some country about a mile from where I grew up hunting. And I just decided that's what I want to do. You know, I kind of, at some point, you know, you take everything your old man has taught you, and you say, okay, I'm going this direction, Dad. And that's what I decided to do. And like the great father he was, he said, well, you're crazy, but I'll do it with you.

And kind of started scouting that high country, which, because there wasn't very many people back then really doing it right, the big bucks were pretty easy to find compared to now, you know, camp on every ridge. And high country bucks are different than the low country bucks you and I have talked about. They don't put up with much. You know, they're not going to sit there and feed on a bitter brush, you know, while a truck drives by at 600 yards, you know, and just hold still. You know, they'll change drainages on you. They don't smell humans very often. They don't see them very often. And so just a few guys can kind of screw it up. Well, it wasn't that way when I very first started getting into the high country. Um, and, um, I really kind of fell in love with that kind of hunting, Jason, but, you know, fast forward 20 years, I don't hunt the high country near as much now as I did just

because the, unless it's a draw hunt or, um, I do hunt archery, um, uh, high country, but even that, you know, it only takes one or two guys to screw up a whole basin. You know, it's not like the low country bucks I found where, you know, I can personally spook them and then find them again in two days. It's, it's, it's not typically that way in the high country, at least my experience. And so, um, I, I killed a fair number of bucks in the high country. Um, that big buck I told you the story about in the beginning that ended up killing, he was a two 34 buck. He, he came out of the high country, but it wasn't the classic above timberline type country. It was more kind of like right at timberline. We get a lot of, um, aspen conifer zone right before you hit the timber, timberline in Idaho. And there's a lot of big bucks. So that was that two 30 buck was the second choice buck, right?

Back to that story. That was the, by the way, I didn't finish that story. He ended up being bigger than this low country buck that the other kids shot. Yeah. That's what I was wondering. He shot, it was two, it was two 26. Uh, my buck was two 34 and six eight had him, had him officially scored. And that, that was net or excuse me, gross. Gross. Two 34 and six eight. He was two 27, I think seven eights. Yeah. We're terrible. Like I couldn't even pass algebra and listen to us spew out these numbers. And, um, um, he, you know, so he ended up being bigger, but I guess, I guess what, what I was getting at is the, the, the high country is kind of where I started. That's why I'm a big horseman and, you know, used horses a lot. Still love it. It's my favorite kind of hunting. It truly is. But it's harder now than it used to be. And I'm really careful about where I go in the high country.

I don't, I don't usually go unless I've spotted a buck somewhere. I know one's there, you know, stuff like that. And sometimes it's an opening day deal and, you know, and then he's, then he's gone. And, you know, those mountains are so, you know, they eat your lunch. It's not like you can just say, you know, well, I'm just going to walk down there after him. You know, I mean, it's, I mean, it's not that way. You kind of got to wait him out and stuff like that. So I still hunt it, but I haven't seen a really big high country. Buck, Jason, in about, about five years since I've seen a buck over 200 in the high country. So, you know, it's hurting. They're around. Don't get me wrong. They're around. But the last kind of 10 years, I focused more on some of that stuff I grew up in and even some of this desert stuff that's around here. You had mentioned Nevada.

I've actually, I've drawn two Nevada tags. I've ended up turning them both back. I guess I'm becoming too much of a deer hunting snob, but it's so hard to draw a tag down there when you draw it and you can't scout up a good buck. No, yeah. And you have better opportunities closer to home. You know, it's like, hey, give me my nine points back. I'm going to make a wildlife donation here. Yeah. And so, but I like it. I like that type of country that's down there. I don't hunt any of that south stuff that you do. It's more of the northern stuff. Not quite as big bucks. But so I'm pretty diverse is what I'm getting at. I'll hunt the high country, mid elevation, Aspen conifer zones, my favorite. And then I definitely find some big bucks in some of our desert country. And, you know, around here, desert can be, you know, all the way down to the flat stuff, the Arco Desert.

But there's some desert mountain ranges in southeast Idaho that I call desert too. South Idaho, excuse me, that I call desert too that I see some pretty good bucks in. And low deer densities, there's not a lot of deer, you know, more than a typical desert. But they're still tough to come by. But I really enjoy hunting them. You know, like for you. 55 and some of that. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, some of that stuff down in there. And they're a little more tied to water. And, you know, there may be high country a mile away that's full bucks. Sure. But I still find that there's some pretty damn big bucks living at lower elevations, even in this day and age. And I really enjoy hunting them. Usually, if you can't kill them during archery season, they get pretty hard to kill after that. They'll get out of that open country. You know, they'll move into some brushy stuff.

It seems like they do move more than maybe some of the classic bucks I found in the Aspen-Conifer zone and even the high country. You know, I'm pretty sure some of these bucks will move, you know, several miles to just get out of the area that they summered in. Well, and I think too, is up in that high country, I want to say it all looks the same and it's not all the same. But they can call home a bigger range, whereas like you go down that low country, sometimes they're just not feed. You know what I mean? Yeah, right. And water. Sometimes they're just not water. And so they've got, it does concentrate them just by the terrain. And so, you know, in that high country, you know, you're not going to trail camera water. You might, in a state that allows you to use salt or something, you might do that. Yeah, but, but yeah, I mean, maybe it goes back to the actual name trail camera

and you're putting them on trails. But, but, but, you know, but overall, you know, and that's what I find in that lower desert. Plus, you know, there is, there are less people and I don't know, or there have been. And of course, there's people that we inspire as we go along and we kind of maybe even, you know, I don't know, crapping our own nest, so to speak. But, you know, we, we, it's fun to watch people, you know, experience some of the things that we have. And, but, but people learn and they get inspired and, and they see somebody doing it. And so then they start doing it and they work harder and they, they become successful too. I mean, people that really want it can do it. And so we do see more people even in the desert, as well as like what you're talking about in the high country. Yeah, it seems like, you know, that's, to me, I mean, I think about that all the time.

You know, you say we crap in our own suit, but, you know, back to what we started talking about with Kurt, other people inspired me and I could be selfish and say, you know, I'm not going to ever talk about deer hunting. I'm not going to go on any podcast. I'm going to shut my blog down. I'm not going to help people. Well, someone else is going to help them. And it's, it's pretty dang selfish considering that a lot of people helped me. Yeah. And I'm not talking about, you know, told me go hunt unit 36B. I'm not talking about that. I'm just about helping you figure out how to do it, you know? And, and so, yeah, I guess we could be selfish and not help anybody, but I wouldn't be very good at that. Yeah. So are you spending a lot of time in, there's still over the counter opportunities there in Idaho.

I mean, are you doing some of those over the counter or are you mostly, you know, just trying to draw tags and, and do some of those more limited entry hunts? All of it. Every bit of it. Idaho just posted results last night. I know. I didn't draw anything. You didn't. I was going to ask you. No, no. I didn't draw anything. I don't put in for the super hard hunts to draw. I'm just looking for decent places to hunt and then just use my hunting skills to find the best buck in the area. OTC. Yes. Of course, every single year I have an OTC tag somewhere. I kind of look at all of it as it's like an investment portfolio. You got to be pretty diverse. So yeah, I'm applying in, you know, I can't lose track. Seven Western states have more preference points than I am old. And, you know, chasing a few of those units.

But at the end of the day, I end up most of the time just hunting better than average unit. If it's an OTC unit, I'm focusing either on trying to get some private property access. I'm an outfitter, so I have a little bit of that. But sometimes just trying to find the backcountry in the unit. Backcountry doesn't have to be 10 miles in. It can just be anywhere. There's no roads and hard to get to. And so I'm pretty diverse in it, Jason. I do try to stay closer to home if I can because I just think you're more efficient. I know you and I would agree on that. I get guys calling me from, you know, Alabama. And they're going to drive right through New Mexico and Colorado to get here. And I'm like, you guys just drove through two great mule deer states. Just focus. And so I try to follow my own advice. I don't always do it, but I try to.

And it just seems like that's where you end up killing them. So, but yeah, Jason, I'm pretty diverse. I'll hunt anything, any weapon, anywhere. But, you know, when the season gets here, I'm happy if I just have one or two tags. And it looks like this year that's what I'm going to have. And I've had those years where I have four or five tags. I just end up wasting them. I don't give them a good effort. I'm glad you said that. I spoiled myself one year and bought three different landowner tags. And yeah, I pretty much ate them. It's one of those things, you know. I mean, and even if it's an over-the-counter hunt or a general here in Utah or something that's easy to get, you know, even if I only had that, I would have, I mean, I'm, I have a pretty good chance of making good on that tag. Like, just because you, that's, you put all your time and effort and all your eggs in that basket.

And so, you do end up doing very well, you know, versus having a whole pocket full of tags. Having said that, I like to have a pocket full of tags. And even if you just have that mentality, you're going to eat them. And in that way, if you, like you're over-the-counter in Idaho there, you know, if you found something great, you've got that opportunity. Or a general here in Utah, which, you know, you know, just have it in your pocket. If I find something great, but at least I have it, I can't, you know, here in Utah, I just can't go buy one if I find a buck. And so, so anyway, it's nice to have those opportunities, but I've ate, you know, I've ate, I don't know, maybe 20 out of 22 tags here in Utah. But then, but those two that I didn't eat are, you know, are big deer on my wall.

And so, you know, it is nice to have, it is nice to have some tags, but, but trying to do justice to four and five Mueller tags without going guided and just doing it all, you know, on your own or with your friends, you know, they're close to you. I mean, it just, it just never really works out. Yeah. And I'm, I'm glad you confirmed that. I had to learn it the hard way. And I used to think of, you know, just hunt all fall, you know, I'll kill more big bucks. I've kind of learned, no, no, just focus. And I'm working on a blog post right now. That's, it's, you know, scout big, hunt small. And that's what I mean. Like, yeah, I don't mind having four or five tags. That's why I ended up turning those Nevada tag backs because I scout them. If I don't find what I'm looking for and I have a better opportunity somewhere else, then boom, I'm done with that one. I'll move on.

And, you know, so, so yeah, I, I eat plenty of tags. Don't get me wrong. Yeah. Yep. Well, talk to me a little bit. I mean, obviously, I mean, we've talked about, you're probably in G&H there in Wyoming a fair bit or have been or, or know that. That's your backyard, so to speak. But how, how have the wolves and grizzlies and whatnot had an impact on that country as well as Idaho? You know, talk to me a little bit about that. Do you feel like that's part of it as well as the hunting pressure of, of seeing less big deer? Well, I'm going to make some guys mad, but I'm not a wolf hater or a bear hater. And I'm, I'm not a, the sky's fallen type of guy. Sure. Um, I just can't be that way in my head and do a good job mule deer hunting.

Cause as soon as I think everything else out there is eating the mule deer that I'm after, I'm just not going to want to do it and, you know, suffer enough to, to get it done. Uh, but having said that I'm, I'm, I, I don't like wolves. I'd rather not have them. I mean, obviously we're competing with them, but Hey, they're all God's creatures and there's a place for every one of them. The way I look at it. And, um, it was, it was way out of hand before we took the States took over control. Yeah. And I think now that we've got control of it and, and I know there's some guy right now just pounding on the desk. Oh, my elk area is ruined. Yeah. I get it. And it probably is. Like that's happened. Yep. That has happened, but we're still better off with the States managing them than flipping the bird at the federal government saying, Hey, you know, we're, we're, we're going to do it our way.

Well, Wyoming has shown how well that's worked and, you know, that's why they're behind us on, on wolf management. And, um, so now that we're managing them, I think there's a glimmer of hope. And as long as there's not a fundamental shift in the agencies on the way they want to manage, because the fishing game guys around here that I know, I won't say any names. They want to kill them. They're like, they're so happy when someone gets a wolf. And as long as we got them, them good old boys and gals in our, in our agencies, I think there's room for the wolves. I really do. And Jason, the places I hunt, I spend less time in central Idaho than I used to, but the places I hunt. Haven't been. I have negligible effect from the wolves on mule deer. Yeah. I'm not an elk hunter. I'm not, not going to go there. All right. But on mule deer, negligible.

And Jason, I spend more time in, in, in the woods around here than anybody I know. I've never seen a wolf. Yeah. I've never seen one yet. Seen their tracks. I know they're around. Hey, well, you gotta, you gotta go hunt your own state, buddy. Cause I've killed two of them in your state. Yeah. I know you have. I know you have. Not in your country. But, you know, but over there, Boise country and, in Chalice country. And there's a lot more over there. That's why I give you the central Idaho caveat there. They don't spend much time over there. And I know they're having more of an effect over there. Well, it's an, it's a. They're still killing big deer over there too. They are. They are. But, and a wolf, they, they tend to prefer the elk. It seems like, but you know, I've got to tell you, like, so the first year they opened up, uh, wolf hunting, you know.

I went up there and, and, uh, of course was laughed at by my dad and anybody else that knew that I was doing it. Cause it's one of those things. You, you don't know what you're doing and, and, uh, you know, anyway, long story short, we just hunted the feed, which we hunted elk. We just basically, when we saw a herd of elk, you can tell when a wolf walked by and when a wolf walks by, not one of them is feeding. They're all staring in the same direction, you know, crapping, nervous. And, uh, and so, you know, there's a wolf nearby and you start glassing them. Well, when you start seeing them and you feel like you're actually have a chance. And if you have a long range rifle, you do have a chance. If you don't have a long range rifle, you still got a sliver of a chance, but you do need to be able to shoot them when you see them. And, uh, cause you just don't see them often.

But when you do see them, it's pretty impressive. And I got to tell you, there are a couple of my most prized trophies. Um, you know, when I shot the first one, it was the first year they were open and, and I'm, and I shot them. And, and, uh, I think my tag was like one Oh one something low, like 100 or something, which I don't know. I assumed that I mean I was the hundredth guy to get one that particular year. I didn't get him till March, but anyway, I'm just sitting there going. I mean, I felt like I did something very bad, you know? Really? Well, because you're scared if you didn't have the right habitat stamp or something and you took him across state lines. I don't know. You know, you just feel right. Sure. You're, you killed a wolf. You know what I mean? Like you killed a wolf and, and, uh, it's been taboo. And then all of a sudden now you've got a tag for one.

Anyway, it's, it was an interesting, it was a crazy feeling, but they're, uh, they're an impressive animal. Um, but having said that, you know, uh, I mean, I want to hunt them more, a lot more, you know, and, and I saw the destruction. It was, it was unbelievable to see, you know, we would drive even down the paved road and there would be an elk in the bar ditch and, and just ate out the rear end and some of the, you know, important parts and, and, uh, and then walked, you know, and, and, and just to see some of that and the carnage and the bones everywhere. It was like a boneyard. Of course it was the elk winter range and they're feeding on the elk all winter. And so you see a lot of it and it was just, it was pretty, it was, it was, it set you back for a minute. Yeah. It was the, the, the, the amount of game that they consume was pretty amazing.

Um, but having said that, like you're saying, you know, once we get good, good management on top of it and we work with them and stuff, I don't think, you know, it'll, it'll crush the population forever as long as we manage them. So. Yeah. And I think in some places, you know, it definitely has had an effect. Um, you know, the, it's, it's changed the elk. You talk to the guys in Chamberlain basin, you know, they're not killing the elk out in those big, you know, pristine meadows and, you know, all that stuff. But that's consequently from what I hear in the old days, that's not really where the elk were either. You know, when we took those predators out of the ecosystem, it, it changed the elk and it made them a little dumber. Sorry guys, it did deer too.

And now that those elk have to think on their feet, um, you know, they're, they're harder to kill because they're in steeper terrain, stuff like that. But I talked to a few of the guys that are back there and like, we got big bulls because they, they're, they're not just standing out in the meadow, you know, October 10th, here comes the back string. And everybody lays over their saddle and takes them a 300. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so I don't know. I, I don't, don't get me wrong. I'd rather not have them. But now that we have them, if we can manage them, if our States can manage them, if we, that's why we need to support our fishing games and, you know, whatever they need to manage them. And, and, and keep those people in there that want to keep their numbers where they need to be. I think there's a little room for them.

You know, where we were when we had seven, 800, 900 wolves in Idaho running free, not scared of humans. That was horrible. That was brutal. That just gave us a little picture of what it's like when you let the pine cone boppers run, run things. But now, now we got it back from them. Let's not give it back to them. And that's why I've been thinking, come on, Wyoming, let's, let's, let's get this under our control here. And, and so there, there's more of them than there are us. Yeah. So we got to negotiate. We got to negotiate to where we can manage these wolves. You asked about bears. I, I think it's going to be kind of the same thing. I'm really happy to see that delisting. Come on. It's amazing. The delisting. Like, I mean, I, I, I, I, I can't get a tag fast enough. I mean, I, I'd like, that's a, you know, and I'm a deer hunter, but I don't know about you. I want to go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Totally. You know, I may not because it'll, it'll be one day I'm not hunting mule deer, but I will totally support you, dude. And that might give me a better chance.

Oh, geez. But it, it, it, it gave me some hope when I saw that delisting come through because, you know, I don't want to make this a political podcast, but I'm so glad to see these liberals getting their butts handed to them on a plate right now because everything shifted back, you know, like the last eight years. And geez, you just didn't know what was going to happen. Are we going to have any guns? Are we going to be able to hunt? You just didn't know. Yeah. That's the question. So for them to move and delist that shows me there's, there's still hope here. There's still some sound wildlife management going on, even in those marble lined offices in Washington, DC. And there's some guys that understand that, you know, this, this, this, this has to be managed to, that's what man was put here to do is manage the animals. And, and so I was happy and a little refreshed to see it.

And I know it's going to be, you know, emotional. There's going to be lawsuits. Someone's going to kill a pet bear and it's going to be on the front page. But the more of us hunters that are engaged in and supporting it and educating the people that are around us. You know, I grew up in a hunting family yet. You know, I married into a non-hunting family, so I'm mostly surrounded by non-hunters. Yeah. It's up to me to kind of set the tone and I can't just be a bear hater. Yeah. Otherwise those people, they vote too. Well, they're like, oh yeah, related to redneck Robbie. He just wants to kill everything but mule deer. Yeah. You know, then, then, then I kind of inspire them to go to the other side. But if I can come to them reasonably and say, hey, this is, there's getting to be too many bears in Island Park. That's just north of here.

You know, we're more bear encounters, more people encounters. They're not afraid of people. We can't just let their numbers continue to climb and, and manage them is the right thing to do. That's going to happen among reasonable people. Sure. And that's why I just, again, I'd rather not have the bears. I'd rather not have the coyotes. I'd rather not have any of it. Yeah. But it's not reality anymore. Yeah. And there's some good things that come out of having those predators as well, as far as, you know, ecology. You know, nobody will argue that the, the stream banks and Yellowstone aren't in better shape now that there's not 500 elk packed in on the bank with, you know, a bunch of Asian tourists sitting there taking photographs of them at 10 feet. You know, because they're hiding now. You know, they're, they're, they're a little more wild and, and, you know, I'm wild at heart.

You're wild at heart. That's why we love this stuff. And so I guess I just want to be able to manage them and I don't want to lose the power to do that. And that's why this grizzly delisting, I thought, well, good, let's get behind these people that are trying to make this happen and make some reasonable decisions and make sure our voice is heard. Well, and I saw, I mean, I, I was, you know, clear back in the late nineties. I saw a grizzly in, in a unit 61 up there in Wyoming. And anyway, they're pretty impressive. I'm all right with them. I just, I think we need to manage them and, and, and I want to be part of that management process pretty bad. So anyway, hopefully they can get a management program in place that is fair and equitable that they will actually pass before Trump is, you know, out of office. And that way we can, we can hunt them and, and take part in that process.

So anyway, well, good. I'm, I just wanted to kind of visit with you about that because that's kind of your neck of the woods and, and, you know, probably had an impact to a degree on, on your hunting. Let me, let me add one more thing, Jason, and this is what I mean about when we manage correctly. Some of this grizzly bear habitat that they took back in Eastern Idaho in the eighties. Well, I say they took it back. I mean, after they got listed, they had to go in and reduce the road densities. We have, you know, some plan on, you know, how many roads you can have per square mile and, you know, grizzly bears still thrive. Well, dude, that did a, that did more for elk and mule deer than it did for the bears. The bears recovered slowly, but some of this country is actually has big bucks in it again. And, and, and it's some of this country that used to grow 250, 260 mule deer.

I'm expecting to see one here show up pretty soon because 15 years ago, before they closed all those roads, my goodness, you could take the family four-wheeler out there opening day deer season. Now there's a buck in the middle. Let's get him. And then the three guys behind you got one too. That ain't happening now in a couple of these places. And so when we manage the land and we manage the species and we don't just get selfish about our own species, it can have some carryover effect. I think God knew what he was doing when he made this great big green place. And, and, and sometimes these things, if we can do them right and not get too political about it, it can benefit us all. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you got to, to a degree, we've got to look at the bright spot in some of this just because, you know, you're not going to change it.

We can be part of a process and might, there might be some slow change like we're seeing. And, and I'm happy to be able to be hunting the wolves. I'm hoping we can really hunt the grizzlies to a degree, but, but we've kind of got to cope with it, so to speak. And, and roll with, roll with the punches. And then, you know, like you said, there is, there is some good that comes from some of this at times and, and whatnot. And so anyway, well, so you're pretty much just into mule deer and big deer. I mean, you're still as passionate as you were at 23 over, over some of these big deer. Of course.

It doesn't quit, does it? It doesn't, dude. It doesn't. Yeah. But I love every minute of it. Yeah. And so tell me, we talked, we've referenced your book. I just want to kind of, you know, formally recognize it. It's, it's titled, uh, Hunting Big Mule Deer, How to Take the Best Buck of Your Life. And, uh, there, it's quite involved. And so, anyway, anybody out there that's interested can sure, uh, you know, Google it, I'm sure, and come up with it and buy a copy off you. I know you've, uh, been gracious enough to give me a signed copy. And, uh, and, uh, and I appreciate that. And there's, I found it to be quite interesting. And, and you're very knowledgeable and done it for years and years. And so, anyway, I do appreciate that. You betcha. And like I said, I think we can all learn from each other. You bet. And then, and so tell me a little bit.

I want to talk about Rock Slide just a little bit. Like, just, you know, for those listeners out there that doesn't know what it is, talk about it a little bit. Talk about, uh, Ryan Avery. Of course, he's doing podcasts. I don't know his affiliation with Rock Slide exactly. You also mentioned Aaron Snyder. Just, maybe just visit with me just a little bit about some of that and what you've got going there. Sure. Um, Rock Slide, uh, by the way, Ryan Avery is my partner. So both he and I own Rock Slide. He's a 50% owner. I'm a 50% owner. Okay. Um, we started it back in 2012. It was, um, I was actually a pretty small part of it then. Ryan was our IT guy. He built the database. Um, it was David Long and Aaron Snyder's, uh, brainchild. Okay. They're, they're the ones that really kind of had the vision for it. Sure. It's an online magazine and a forum is, is really the biggest part of it.

And, um, the, the, when I say magazine, you know, it's not, you know, you're not flipping an electronic page, but it's a big database of articles. Okay. And they're geared towards hunting gear. Really? The, the, the gear has changed so much in the last 20 years, you know, tie a lot of it to the war on terror and the, you know, the big improvements the military has made, you know, fabrics and technology and guns and weapons. And, you know, look how far we're shooting now. Look at the optics now, all that stuff. And so rock slide, you know, David was a gear nut, Aaron gear nut extravagant. I mean, these guys, every piece of gear they played with, you knew Brian Martin. He used to write a bunch of articles and it was just a lot of gear freaks. And, and so that's what it was born out of. Um, they brought me on, you know, mule deer guy, just write some mule deer articles and,

you know, stuff like that. Well, uh, Aaron and, and, and David, you know, big names in the industry, you know, a lot going on, you know, they worked it for. David was with us about six months. Aaron was with us a couple of years. And then, then we bought them out. They've moved on to bigger things. And, uh, so it's just Ryan and I now running it. And it's just a place to connect with other hunters, not just about gear. That's our primary focus, but we've, you know, a lot of forums get a bad rap out there. They're, you know, judgment zones, you know, a couple of bullies on there all the time, that kind of bull crap. We did away with that crap. In fact, I call Ryan, Ryan, the band hammer Avery, cause he just doesn't put up with it. You know, he's banned over three or four hundreds. That first couple of years.

And that's hard to do when you're a small growing website, you know, to be banning your customers, but it kind of set the tone that look, we're, we're, we're all here to learn from each other. There's, you know, we have a staff of paid writers on there, but they're not superstars. They're just regular guys out there kind of sharing their experiences. And, you know, we're in it for everybody that wants to come on there. It's not just set up for, you know, a couple of guys to have a bullhorn and, and it's working, Jason. We've got a, you know, we're approaching 20,000 members. Um, and we've got to be like, like I said, a good paid staff of writers. And, you know, these guys are out there working regular jobs, you know, trying to help hunters through, through their writing and, and, and their videos and stuff like that. So that, that's really what Rockslide is.

And then the year after we started it, we didn't have a blog and a blog is just kind of a personal space for an individual writer. So I took the blog and if anybody wants to follow me at rockslide.com and that's R-O-K. Um, once you get there, um, the blog is me, that's my voice. And, um, that, that's where I publish anything mule deer related techniques, uh, my own hunts, um, and, and then any gear that's related to, to mule deer. Um, so that's kind of my voice on there, but the forums are where most people spend their time. A lot of information is exchanged on forums these days. And like I said, we tried to make it a, you know, pretty low drama inviting place for, for guys to get on, introduce themselves. And, and, and the other cool thing about it, Jason, I've kind of learned that, you know,

I used to think of back country as, you know, Frank Church, Riverville Return, you know, 40 miles back in. And I've kind of learned that back country is country ride. We got guys in Alabama that are, you know, they, they might only be able to get a mile and a half from a road, but they're crossing some nasty river to do it. And, you know, they're blocked by private land and that's back country too. And we invite all those discussions on there. Cause it's, it's kind of a little subculture of the hunting industry that guys will even take maybe less hunting opportunity as far as maybe not being able to get to the best trophy or, you know, the most bucks and bulls or whatever, just to have that back country experience, you know, just kind of men are wild at heart and it kind of, it kind of fulfills that need in there. So a lot of backpacking talk and, you know, stuff like that on there.

Okay, great. Well, good. That's awesome. Yeah. I'm glad we covered that a little bit and just kind of wanted to get a feel for, you know, and let the listeners get a better feel for what you're doing and your involvement. You also indicated you're an outfitter. How many, how, how big of an outfitter are you? Where are you working out of? I'm a pretty small outfitter. Sure. I, we mostly focus on elk. I'm not an elk hunter, but we operate on private ground and you know how elk are about private ground. They're just a magnet to it. You know, they'll leave one mountain range across a five mile valley to go to another mountain range that has a little chunk of 700 acres of private property and they'll live there. So I've gathered up a few ranches that have really good elk hunting on them. And we only take about six to 10 clients per year. We specialize in, in semi-guided and self-guided hunts.

I need guys that know what they're doing. I can show them around the place. They can take care of themselves if needed. You know, they don't need somebody there to get their elk and get it to the truck and all that other stuff. And so consequently, we're able to offer some pretty economical hunts for guys that can get out and get it done. We do manage them for mule deer, but you know, mule deer are just tough. Some places they respond, other places they don't. We only take roughly two to four deer hunters a year. So consequently, we grow some pretty good bucks. Right now I'm managing about 6,500 acres. I've had as many as 25,000. It just kind of ebbs and flows depending on what ranches are available and how much bull crap I want to deal with from landowners. And so, you know, it's not a big income source for us, but it kind of keeps my toe in the door. And, you know, I love to scout.

And because Rock Slide's a big deer website, I can do a lot of deer testing on private land. You know, it's pretty close to my house, stuff like that. And every once in a while, we'll kill a pretty good buck up there, too. Good. Well, yeah, and it's nice to run something like that. That way you're, you know, you've got gas money for big deer. There you go, dude. A separate checkbook. Keeps the wife happy. She's a sweetheart, but she's a lot sweeter when I can hand her $1,000 to say, here, honey, this is yours. Yeah, it is nice. So, well, you know, as we wrap up here, there's a couple of things I wanted to just briefly go over, like, and you probably won't be prepared for this one, but just how many years, how much time, effort, energy, and years do you think it takes to kill a 200-inch deer? And I know that varies from hunter to hunter. It varies from state to state.

But in your experience with what you've got going, and, you know, I often wonder how many more 200-inch deer will I be a part of, you know, like, is this my last one? Every time I'm behind a good deer and I've got my hands on him, I always wonder, you know, is this my last one? You know, am I going to get in a car wreck, or am I just not going to find any more? And it's just on my brain, but I get that question fairly regular, and I can't really ever quantify it personally. I was wondering if you could. Well, I'm not sure I can quantify it either. All I can do is kind of look at my own history and what it's taken for me, but I can tell you this, and this is what I tell guys, it's going to take everything you got. Yeah. Unless you're just wealthy, you can buy the tags where they are, and even then, I don't know any place that's a shoe-in for a 200-inch buck. Yeah.

And, or you've got to be pretty good in the draws, since you can't control that, it just really gets down to you. And, and, so for me, Jason, I've killed four bucks over 200. Um, um, I haven't killed one in six years. I'm about due. I'm usually about every five to seven years to get one. I hunt in the Intermountain West. There's not, you know, there's, that's a pretty big buck in the Intermountain West, you know. 200 gross, you know, so, so. It's a giant. It, it, it's a giant. You've killed, you've killed, you've killed, you've killed four, you've killed four since 23 years old-ish. Is that what you're, I mean, that shows you, and you've done it for, you've done it as hard as anybody could do it in your country. It just shows you how hard it is. Exactly. And, and so, I'm like you. I'm always looking for the next one and wondering if that was my last one, but I find one every couple years.

You know, hands down, 200. And the last two I've found have been on public ground OTC tags, so that's always encouraging. Yeah. Yeah. But, if a guy's asking me that question, I tell him the same thing I tell him in my book. You give it all up and go after mule deer. That's what it's going to take. I don't hunt antelope. I don't hunt elk. I don't hunt bears. I don't even hunt spring turkeys, because that's money and time. Yeah. Away from my family. You know, I got to think about that stuff too. And so, I throw everything I got at it. And, I'm killing one about every five to seven years is what it's coming down to for me. Yeah. And, that's the best I can tell people. There's so many variables. Like, you know, if I had a $30,000 a year hunting budget. Yes. A couple places in Colorado, I'd be on a landowner's. I wouldn't be calling the landowner.

I'd be down there on his doorstep right now getting that tag. Yeah. And, we wouldn't be balking over a thousand bucks. You know, either way, it would be, what do you got to have for this? Right. But, I can't do that. And, even though, those aren't shoe-ins. You know that, Jason. You know that. Yeah, they're not. And, so, for me. Last year proved that, like with the weather and whatnot. I mean, guys with $20,000 and $30,000 tags, you know, I mean, didn't kill as good a deer as guys were getting on a second choice last year. You know. And, that's the enigma of mule deer right there. That's the draw of big buck hunting right there to me in this day and age. Anybody can do it. And, that's why I don't begrudge the guys that got to do it in the 60s and 70s because most of those guys hate deer hunting now. It's so hard, they don't even want to do it. Right.

Where, to me, it's like this is, anything rare is valuable. And, you know, if it takes that kind of effort to do it, you know, and it's just all that much more worth it when it happens. Yeah. And, so, I'm like you, Jason. It's hard to define. And, I know the more amateur I am at anything that I do, the more I'm looking for a formula. But, the better I get at something, the more it becomes an art rather than a science. And, you just kind of go with the flow. Right. And, that's when things start to happen. The big bucks start to fall. And, you start to find them. And, yet, when I look back, I'm like, well, I can't really give you a 10-step plan here. It's just give it everything you've got. Spend as many days as you can in good mule deer country as possible. And, prepare to get your butt handed to you on a plate a lot. But, it's going to happen. It's going to happen.

That's the best advice I can give people right there. Yeah. Yep. Well, that's awesome. I 100% agree with you. The nice thing, like you were indicating, is anybody can do it. You can do it on pretty much any tag. I mean, I know there was governor class bucks killed here in Utah on our general hunts. You know, in general areas. And, some of my biggest deer have come from general stuff. You know, and, of course, I've hunted some landowner tags, too. And, I've killed good deer on landowner tags. Some of them are more expensive than others. You know, but, that's what's nice about big mule deer is, it's hard to buy one. And, so, you know, sometimes you could go buy a big bull on a San Carlos reservation or something like that. And, I'm not putting down elk at all. Like, go try to kill a 400-inch bull. Tell me how long it takes you. Right.

I mean, it's, every species, every giant of each species, it takes a lot of work, time, and dedication, or an extreme amount of luck. But, the nice thing about mule deer is anybody can do it on any amount of budget. But, I think, like, what we're talking about, and what I've said before, and what you're saying, and what you and I have discussed in the past, is the amount of time it takes. And, you know, a guy doesn't have to have a lot of money, but he does have to put forth time, effort, and energy to do it on a regular basis. You know, we all get lucky, and I love those days, and I'll take them. But, at the same time, it's that time, energy, and dedication that even sometimes, you know, wealthy guys don't have time. And so, they've got to buy the best opportunities they can do, and that's great. And I work with a lot of those guys. But, sometimes, that's not the right formula.

The best formula is that time and energy versus money. So, it's just an interesting dynamic, and big deer die in both cases. But, it is nice that anybody can do it. It's just a matter of just really knowing the area you're in and capitalizing on the opportunities that you're afforded in your particular area of the country. And then, making good on that and following specific deer. Yeah, exactly, Jason. And that's, to me, why it's the whole draw to it right there, what you were just saying. Anybody can do it. Yeah, you can up your chances with money, but anybody can do it. And isn't that the American dream? Yeah. Anybody can do it. And, I said this in my book. I'm glad I didn't grow up in the 60s. Yeah. Both those guys I know were spoiled rotten. That was something that was special about Kurt Garner. When things got hard, he still kept killing them. Yeah.

Because he had that drive, and he had that, I want to be there. Yeah. And, you know, I knew guys that were, guys that killed two or three Boone and Crockett bucks, you know, back in the day here. They wouldn't hunt right now if they had to. Their hands would get cold. You know, just because it was easier then. You could get a big buck in a weekend. And so, you know, they're more valuable than ever, but they're still available. Yeah. You know, I want better deer hunting. Don't get me wrong. But it's okay with me if it never changes from the way it is right now. Yeah. Because I can still find them. They're still there for the person that wants to do it. And any time people get stuff handed to them, you know, it's just human nature. It just becomes kind of an entitlement. That's why I'm kind of making fun of those guys who grew up there.

You know, they're the ones that come to our fish and game meeting and, you know, close all the season. There's no deer. You know, back in my day, we went up on the back 40 and killed three 30-inchers. I'm like, sorry, Tucker. That had to be pretty boring. I know. But having said that, I've watched a little bit of change in my short life. I'm low to mid-40s right now, years old. And so I've seen change. And it's hard to watch. And I wish I could take back some of the tags I've had. And you get passionate. I mean, you get really passionate because you know what it could have been. You know what it can be today. You watched it. You saw it. And some of the game and fish personnel never saw it. They're kids. They just graduated from college. They're 25, 30 years old. They never saw the heyday. So what they have to base it off of is hunting's as good as it's ever been. Well, it's not.

It's not as good as it's ever been. It's not. And so that's what's hard. Yeah, and that's what's hard is, you know, my heart does go out to some of these old-timers that did see what they saw. I've actually got a couple of friends the same thing. They hunted the desert and the Escalante 50-mile mountains, some of that crazy, amazing country that I love and wish there was big deer down there so I could, you know, I could justify going in there and spending, you know, immense amounts of time. You know, although there are a few good deer, it's obviously not what it once was. There's just a lot of, there's a lot of things that have changed. So, well, anything else that you want to leave us with? I mean, maybe a bucket list of your goals and how you're going to accomplish those. Well, keep knocking them over, I'm hoping. I go a couple of years without killing a big deer, I get real grumpy.

So I hope to just be able to be out there using the gifts God's given me, enjoying the life that he's given me. I got a little boy coming up who he's got the fire in his belly, I can tell. He found out he didn't draw last night. He was kind of bummed, but I told him, don't worry, we'll get you out in the woods. So he's happy again. And just, you know, passing this on to my kids. And I would say something to all you guys that are out there, whether you have kids or not, it's up to us to pass this on to the next generation. It doesn't have to be trophy hunting. You know, it might be where I came from, but, you know, just hunting in general. We've talked about it a couple times a day. We need more hunters. We need more voices. We need to have a voice at the table. And that's going to be these little kids that are around us right now. And that's up to us to pass it on.

And so if you don't have kids, man, look for that kid in your neighborhood. Maybe he's in trouble. Maybe he's just looking for something to do. I know deer hunting has helped me live a clean life and, you know, gave me a focus, get me away from the trouble and all the things I was doing in my early 20s. And I know that it can help people at any level, whether they're just a, you know, pure meat hunter. They're going after the antlers. By the way, we eat all the meat. Just get out there and do that. That's what God put us here to do and pass this on to these kids. And there's a lot of hurting kids out there. There's a lot of homes without fathers in there. They need that model from you guys. And don't let it pass by. You know, start with your own kids. But if there's some friends you can include in it, you know, get them out there. It will be some of your most rewarding times.

And again, we can make it all selfish and make about ourselves or we can figure out how to pass it on to others. And as I look at these little guys running around, I'm thinking, if I could just get them in the hills for a weekend, it would change their lives because it changed mine. And I've seen it change many other guys. So look for those opportunities. Great. Yeah, that's great advice. And I sure appreciate it. And of course, as we get older, the more we appreciate it. So anyway, well, thanks, Robbie. I appreciate all the time you spent with us today. And, you know, all the different experiences have been fun. We could go on and we may do it again someday. We could go on for another 15 stories. It's there's a crazy amount to talk about when you talk about mule deer. Let's do it. Let's talk. Let's do one where we just talk about some big smacker bucks that we got the drop on

and maybe a few of those that got away that keep us getting up early in the morning. Well, maybe next time we'll be talking about this 40 inch with trash and just a giant 250 plus buck that we except for maybe you didn't see my truck pull up, you know? All right. What I'm hoping is now that I've confessed the dream to you, maybe I'll just quit having it and I can actually find the buck and have a little peace. I'm just a little nervous about you dreaming about me. I'm just a little nervous about that, Robbie. That does sound weird.

All right. Well, sounds good. I appreciate it. Good luck to you this year. You're awesome. I just appreciate you spending some time. It's been fun. You bet, man. God bless you guys. All right. Thanks, buddy. Talk to you later.