EP 34: Treed By A Grizzly with John Alderson

More bear encounters than anybody I've ever met. That is not a black bear, and this is not California. That's a grist. He's in gear, and he's headed at you. It's full bore. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey, everybody. Jason Carter and Adam Bronson here with the Epic Outdoors podcast with another podcast coming at you. Today is kind of a fun one. We've got a special guest, John Alderson. He's one of the first we've done like this one. He's actually been a client for years and years. Adam and I have dealt with him, and a super good guy.

Drew a tag there, an elk tag there in Wyoming, and had kind of an interesting grizzly experience, which we're way excited to get into with him. Just quite comical, especially now that he's still alive. But anyway, we wanted to talk about that and just talk about some of the tags he's drawn over the West. The name of the game is Drawing Tags Out There, and so we do want to know everything that you draw. It doesn't matter how easy it is to draw or tough. We want to know about it. We can help you one way or another. We've got a member draw database where we could send you a list of members who've hunted in the past. You know, we've got a lot of experience here in the office across the West. If it's something that you've drawn that we have experience in, we'll definitely want to help you with that as well, or find an outfitter for it. That's right. These tags, in many cases, are worth tens,

or in some cases hundreds of thousands of dollars if you were to have to go out and buy them on the open market, so to speak. So we realize that applying for a lot of years is only part of it. When you draw the tag, that's when it really starts to maximize what you have. So I encourage you to make the most of it. If you're going to do it on your own, call in. Get an Epic member experience database list from us. Get prepared. Have gear questions. We'll give you our take on it and whatnot. If you need an outfitter for the unit that you've drawn, we work with the best. We stay on top of that. We write the magazines, so that allows us to stay in touch with outfitters that are killing the best stuff on the specific units in the West. Yeah, so to get in touch with us, go to epicoutdoors.com. You can email us, of course, jason at epicoutdoors.com or item at epicoutdoors.com.

General questions, info at epicoutdoors.com, as well as 435-263-0777. Anyway, before we get started on that, we'd like to thank Under Armour for the sponsorship they give us here at Epic Outdoors in a wide variety of aspects, including this podcast, YouTube, and magazine and whatnot. So anyway, really appreciate them. And with that, let's give him a call. John Alderson? Hey, John. It's Jason Carter and Adam Bronson. How are you? I'm good. Good morning. How are you folks? We're doing good. Good, John. How's things in California treating you? Hot, hot. Very hot down here. Yeah. Just wanted to kind of introduce you a little bit and kind of introduce this podcast. This is a little different than we normally do. You're going to be one of the first of just kind of something from a hunter's perspective that's a member of Epic Outdoors.

And, of course, you had an unbelievable experience there in Wyoming, and that's kind of what triggered it. Of course, we've known you. I don't know how many years. Can you remember how many years we've been affiliated with each other, you and Adam and I? I started building Preference Point 16 years ago when I was with another consultant, and he was with them. And during the time I was with them, we were both with them. We talked occasionally. And then when I heard you and Adam had both set up your own operation with some of the other really experienced consultants that were available. Yeah. And once I heard you left, I started looking for you. I found you guys. Yeah. So it's been well over a decade, I would expect, and as a result of my work with you, I've been able to draw two bighorn sheep tags, and I really enjoy that. Well, that's great.

And so tell us a little more about the sheep tags you drew. I know one of them was in Montana, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I drew a 4,000 to 1 odds for a non-resident bighorn sheep tagging the Missouri brakes. And we got out, and one of the guides had scouted and seen a big old ram in this one area. And we got out, I think, the first day I was there and started glassing and looked and looked and looked, and we were just about to give up. And one of the guides peeked over a little rise and spotted him. And I missed him no less than three times, which was very humbling since it was video. No less, huh? We won't say exactly how many, but just no less.

But we eventually tracked him down, and I got another shot, and I connected on that one. That's awesome. Yeah, Jason and I are still waiting for that. Maybe. You know, it's never, it's always something you think about, but a Montana Rocky tag's kind of at the top of everybody's wish list. Where was your other sheep tag you drew?

I drew a 1,000 to 1 odds tag in the Clark Kingston area, southeast California. If you go up 15 like you were going to Las Vegas, just before you go into Nevada, it's on kind of the east side, northeast side of the road, back in there in some mountains, just absolutely desolate country. But drawing both those tags draws a good point for any big game hunter in that it just really pays to apply, apply, apply. Because if you do the math, even though the odds are really long, and you're applying for enough tags, the odds are your number's going to come up. Well, it's not going to if you don't apply. And with sheep, you know, for most people, applying for a Rocky and Desert is the only legitimate option you've got. So what else are you going to do? Not dream about it? Are you going to, for a few bucks a year, especially if it's in a state where you're already buying a hunting license

or applying anyway, add it on? And yeah, there you go. Lightning struck a couple of times in your case. So you're right. Sheep are kind of the epitome of what we all hope for, but you can't base your plans upon it.

Jason and I have both had the opportunity to draw non-resident sheep tags as well in Oregon. So we know what happens. Jason's also drawn a Desert Sheep tag in Utah after accumulating a bunch of points. I'm still waiting mine. But it's, I don't know, those experiences are pretty rare. And for you to be able to get a Rocky in the Desert through draw, that's as good as it gets. And in the meantime, build a lot of other points for a lot of other species, like you alluded to, elk and mule deer and things like that. And that, you know, a couple years ago, I remember we had this conversation, like we always do multiple times throughout the year. But at the start of the year, we were talking about your max points in Wyoming, and you wanted to use them. And tell us a little bit about that. And if you remember, we settled on a unit, and we knew you were pretty much going to draw from the get-go.

And then that'll get maybe the ball rolling. We'll talk about this hunt that we published in our June-July issue that was well-received, and we can get into that a little bit. Well, every year, I have Adam double-check my points in all the states, and we kind of sit down on the phone and have a discussion about how many points I have where and where the best chances of drawing are based on the different conditions, because units change and rules and laws change. So we have an annual discussion as to where the best places to apply are. And this particular year, we decided that units 63 and 64 were the best place to apply in Wyoming for elk with the new special draw rules they had that allowed you to pay a little bit more to improve your odds of drawing. And I got a tag and headed out for units 63 and 64.

And if I remember right, once we knew you had that, just due to the staggered application schedule Wyoming has, once you knew you had that, you said, hey, I want to use my antelope points too, because I'm going to be all the way out there. It saves me a trip not having to go all the way to Wyoming just for an antelope. And so I think we applied knowing you were going to get a unit 64 antelope tag, which you did as well, just to hunt either just before or just after. Adam had gotten me an excellent antelope tag. And once I got to the hunt area, the unit, I was almost continuously in sight of antelope and stalking antelope. And there were some real trophies in there. As it turned out, I didn't end up with one of those, but I chased trophy antelope until I was so exhausted I could hardly walk.

That's good. Well, as we dive into that a little bit on your elk hunt, just tell us a little bit about the preparation, how you chose to go guided, unguided, your prep, learning the unit. Just tell us a little bit about your preparation. That 63-64 would take a little bit of that preparation to do well on it. And, of course, you got into the middle of elk hunt. So just tell us a little bit about that. Well, Adam had advised me that Wood River Ranch was a great place to go based on his experience and knowledge. And it turned out to be great, a great outfitter with a great hunt. I actually got there a few days before we were scheduled to go into the wilderness. And they suggested that I try some of the local hunting. And it was incredible.

And the bull's right off the bat, huh? The first morning, well, we went out in the afternoon the first time. But we called a bull in that was probably within 20 yards. The brush was too thick to shoot through. But right off the first evening, we had a bull come in. And then the next morning, we hiked into an area that there was a basin in there. And we could see any number of really big bulls and cows. And, in fact, on the way in, we tiptoed past a bull that I thought he was 300. The guy, I think, thought he was 340. But we tiptoed a bull somewhere in that quality to get to the bigger bulls. I mean, 20 yards by walking every time he put his head down in the grass and getting by him so he wouldn't blow up and scare everything else off. Was this, remind me, how early in the archery hunt or roughly what part of September was that in that you booked your guided hunt there?

Was it early, middle, towards the last 10 days? Do you remember where it was? I think I got there somewhere between the 10th or 12th. And it seemed to me that the rut peaked about the 15th. But as the rut peaked, the really big, dominant bulls seemed to have their herd of cows. And they stopped responding. Yeah, they had what they want. And they'd scream at you. But they weren't coming. Yeah. Pretty tasty. They would talk to you. There was one instance when the guide set me up on this place and hiding behind a tree. And then he got behind me and called. And the bull came straight at me. And I'm behind the tree. So I have no way to step from behind the tree and pull and draw my bull, my bow. And the first thing I saw of that bull is the tine of the antler came around the side of the tree. And so close I could have hit it with a stick.

The next thing I knew, I'm at point blank range, like six feet looking into the eye of a 360 bull. Wow. Geez, that's a great bull. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I, I, I didn't get him. He, he blew up, of course. And by the time I, I drew, uh, well, I, I did, I did shave him with an arrow, I think. And he went off about 40 yards, and I tried to put in another arrow. And I pulled back, but I made the novice error of putting my finger over the release. And in my excitement, I released the arrow when it was about halfway drawn and shot the ground. We've all done that once or twice in our lives, everybody. So we missed him no less than two times. That's right. I hadn't hunted anything with a bow since I was a kid. And I had practiced long and hard, but there's a hell of a lot of difference between punching holes and paper on a range on a nice, warm, comfortable day.

And standing out there on the side of a hill with the wind blowing and the elk screaming and your heart pounding. And trying to hold on the target. Oh, so set us up with this hunt. You got, basically, you booked a guided hunt. You went six or seven days guided. And then went and hunted antelope. And then came back self-guided. Is that right? That's right. Okay. All right. And so you go on the guided hunt. You get into a 360 bull. You have a great hunt. Just didn't connect. Just being archery equipment. We've all hunted plenty with archery. And so totally understandable. But good enough hunt that you wanted to go back. And you were hunting country. You didn't need a guide in. Like, it wasn't necessarily designated wilderness. You can go back and go on your own if you'd like. That's right. The Wood River Ranch did a great job for me.

But they had a novice client that just didn't get it done. And if I remember right, yeah, you were still, I don't remember if you still stayed with them. But just hunted on your own. Or just were in contact with them in case you killed the bull. And, you know, needed their horses or all of that. So it's not like you were totally on your own. But, yeah, you did stick to more of the day hunting type country that you could go out and get into elk. So you got some shot opportunities on the guided hunt portion.

Tell us more about, I guess, then is how the hunt proceeded from there as you kept hunting, trying to find the bull to kill. Well, I had figured out that the elk were coming down to the low meadows at night. And the big bulls were herded up with big herds of cows. And there was an incredible number of satellite bulls circling around them. And the satellite bulls were coming in and challenging the herd bulls or trying to pick off loose cows and putting on quite a show. But they were out in the middle of the pastures. And I did get one to come by me. And I did call one bull in. But I got excited and didn't look through my peep sight and missed him. You missed him no less than once, right? No less than once.

I love hearing your stories because we've all chuckled and we've all been there, done it with a bow. And it doesn't matter. But this is all leading up to the most epic story we've ever heard in our lives. And we're going to learn a lot from it, too, because we don't have grizzlies here. But not to ruin it, we're going to let you go forward with the story. Well, I was... Floundering around down towards the bottom of the mountain with the meadows, I heard the bulls, saw the bulls going up the mountain, bugling as they would go up. And then I could hear them on top. So one morning, I got up, got started at 3 o'clock in the morning and beat the bulls up to the top. And when they got up to the top, they'd be by themselves. They'd get up to the top and they would kind of break over the edge of the ridge into the rolling, more level country on top.

And they'd let out a huge bugle like, any girls up here looking for a date? Here I am. And that's where you started keying in on where you're catching, leaving the feed and stuff down there up into the in-between before they're going to bed or whatever for the rest of the day. Yep. And they were ready to work. And I would call and they would come in and they would hang up somewhere between 40 to 20 to 40 yards and look for the cow. And one of the things I'd learned on one of the previous hunts is the guide and I had called and a cow came from half a mile away across a big draw. And the guide was hidden in some brush. And without any more calling from a half mile away, she went right exactly to the spot where he was hiding and looked over to log down at him. So when you call, they know exactly where you're at. You have got to be camouflaged and motionless and ready.

There was one big bull came in and was looking and he came in. He was at 20 yards or less and was broadside to me. And as I was about to draw my bow, I was waiting for him to turn his head. I kind of squiggled my left foot about a half an inch as I steadied myself to draw. That's all it took. He saw that and he blew up and ran. Yeah. Jeez. So sooner or later, it had to line up, you know, in terms of you'd had some good opportunities, some big bulls. You either missed a couple shots, punched your release, forgot to look to the peep, but you just did the normal stuff. Finally, it came together for you. One of these bulls finally came in and he wasn't a good bull, but he wasn't one of the giants. But he came in at about 30 yards and hung up behind some brush. But there was a hole through that brush about the size of a basketball.

And he was close enough to that hole that I thought I could thread an arrow through there right into his boiler room without worrying about the drop too much on the other side. In other words, if he's too far from the hole in the brush, your arrow's going to go through the hole and arc down too low. But I threaded an arrow through there and it went in almost all the way up to the fletching. And he ran off and I spent hours looking for a blood trail. I tracked him 200 or 300 yards just on his tracks, but then he got into tracks with a lot of other elk that were fresh and I lost him. I never found a blood trail. But I looked for him and I looked for him for two or three days. And one day I went over this hill down into a big meadow and I wasn't carrying a bow or a pistol or anything. And I looked out into this meadow and I can see the back of a bear out in the tall grass.

Well, I'm from California and the bears I see here are black bears. So you're assuming this is a black bear. I might even pet it. I'm over there. I'm thinking, oh, that's a trophy black bear. Big hump on him in a dish face. And I'm kicking myself in the posterior for not having my rifle in a bear tag. And I made a couple little squeaks with my lips like a mouse or something. Just call this thing in. And I'm trying to get him to just move so I can see him better. And he thought, oh, dinner. Well, he turned around. And when he turned around where I can see him, I remember thinking, John, that is not a black bear. And this is not California. That's a grill. And I have no gun or no arrows. Nothing. I had about a three-inch pocket back. I'm naked. How far are you from this bear, this first one? I'm probably 70, 80 yards from him.

And it looked like a female from the shape of the head and the body and everything. And she comes by, runs by me about 30 or 40 yards away like a big puppy dog. You know how a puppy will throw its front feet up in the air and kind of bounce? Yeah. Well, she comes bouncing by me like that looking at me. And I was told later. You called her in.

Yes, I did. But she didn't come directly to me. She definitely could see me. But I was told later that they'll do that to take a better look at you. Just figuring out what you were. Yeah. Yeah, she ran right by me. But I wasn't comfortable in that area anymore. So I started back up the mountain. And I get about half work. You're still, you're basically looking for your bull from a couple days earlier. That's basically what your mission is. You're looking for that. You're figuring, I know I hit him good. You're in recovery mode. Hopefully you can find him. Yeah, that's why I don't have a bow or anything with me. I'm just, I'm walking. I'm looking for birds. I'm looking where I've seen the elk hanging out. I'm hoping I'll get lucky and found it. Because I felt like I'd killed him based on the arrow placement. So I'm not trying to get another bull. You got pepper spray or anything?

Or are you just, you're a pocket knife? I don't have anything. Looking for meat. Looking for rotting meat. In the elk country. We don't want to make too light of it. But we're, this is education. This is an educational program here too. So we're just, that's why we're pointing some things out. It is such a good story. You just, you just don't get these stories very often. And, uh, no, I, I, part of my problem was I wasn't taking the bears seriously. Everybody had warned me, but you know, I've been, I've been in, I've been in grizz country before, but never had any problem with them. And the black bears, I've had problems with black bears, but not like I had with these guys. Yeah. So I get about, I get about halfway up the mountain and here comes a herd of cows bawling and running uphill. Well, I've never seen cattle or cattle, cattle, cattle, cattle, cattle.

And, uh, I've never seen cows run uphill, much less bawling. Uh, so they, they saw, they came up to right below where I was at and turned and went, uh, contoured around the mountain. And, uh, I kept going and a few minutes later, here comes another herd of cows. And they, they went past me and got ahead of me quite a ways. And I keep going. And as I'm approaching, as I'm going up the mountain, I'm approaching these cows and they're all herded up real tight. And you know how animals that are stressed and feel like predators that are after them. We've hunted elk on wolves. Yeah. With wolves around and they, they do, they ball up. Like a school of fish. Yep. Yep. Uh, waterfowl do it too. Uh, so I was very suspicious when they were, uh, in, in a very tight, uh, bunch like that. The next thing I see in the grass from my angle, I can see the grizz stalking them like a big house cat.

Well, uh, the, the cows evidently winded the bear or something and, and they took off up the, up the mountain again. And so do you have a, do you have your bow with you at this point? This is the same. No, I don't. I don't have anything. Same, same, same day when I, same, same day going up from when I called, made the mouse calls and had the one called the, the bear and probably the same bear. And it's getting dark by this time. So after the cows run, run off, I lose sight of the bear. So it's, it's getting dark. I'm in chest deep grass and I've got a bear in that grass somewhere aggressive enough to chase cows up a mountain. And I have no idea where that bear is. So it's time, it's time to call it a day.

I, I found the best path I could up to the shortest grass that I could see up over the ridge and, and got out of there and didn't see that bear anymore that day. So, uh, I, I continue looking for the, the, the, the carcass, but I, I, I started hunting. I started picking my bow. The next day you're like, all right, I got to carry a bow again. Yeah. Have something with it. Most people would go home.

But John grabs his bow. No bear, no bear spray. Those are people, those are people with good sense. I've never, never fallen into that category. So you get up the next day, you head back in that area and you're. Well, I was, I was, I was up higher and I'm looking for birds at first light. And I saw, um, one, one raven fly across the sky and drop down into the timber, uh, like a dive bomber, like he was on a mission. And I thought, whoa, ravens don't do that very often. He's got something that he's going to. Yeah. So then the next day, the next day I went back to the area where, uh, I saw the raven, uh, drop out of the sky too. And, um, I, there was a bull with a herd of cows and I'm working bull and the, the, the bull and the cows are working up wind away from me. And I can't, I can't get them to stop. And every time I call he bugles, but moves a little further away.

So I'm following him, hoping I'll get him irritated enough or, uh, some of his cows will wander out and he'll go try to get them or something. And, um, while I'm doing this, I go through this air area where I pick up the smell of rotting, rotting meat. So I marked it on my GPS and I, I keep going. And finally this bull slows down and I'm, I'm starting to close in on him and I'm getting close enough that, um, I'm, I'm thinking I might get a shot and I see a big brown side coming through the brush and I think here he, here he comes. So I notch an arrow and then I think, wait a minute, that brown side was too low for a, for an elk. What the hell was that?

It's a bear. I got one guess. It's a bear. The next thing I know, uh, a sow grizz pokes her nose out of the brush and right beside her, uh, a, a little cub pokes his nose out of the brush at about 20 yards. All right. That's close enough.

Way too close. So, um, they then start to circle downwind. Uh, and the cub runs into a big dead bush and makes a, makes a big racket. Well, the, the sow that really makes this mama bear mad. And she turns around and swats him three or four times, obviously disciplining him for being so noisy. And I'm standing there thinking, what in the hell am I going to do? So all my life, when I've been running into black bears and they're too close for comfort, I just let out a big yell and they run off. So I, that's what I do. I let out my loudest, fiercest yell and, uh, they, they run off just lickety split. The, the little, little cub is the cutest critter I've ever seen. He's running all for all he's worth to stay up with mama and they disappear. Well, after I've yelled, uh, I don't figure I'm going to call in any, any bulls. It's, it's over for the day.

So I, I take my GPS and I go back to that area where I had the smell. And, uh, I, I laid out a grid and started going back and forth, back and forth. And finally I find the carcass of my bull. Well, it is about a quarter eaten by a bear and it's covered with dirt and leaves and pine needles. And my first impulse was there's a bear feeding on that. I need to get the hell out of there. I need to go back to California. John, I can't hardly hold it in. You've had more bear encounters than anybody I've ever met in two days. And, and taking them on the chins and came back for more, so to speak. You, you are afraid of nothing, John.

Well, what is, what is the, I was, it was either, I was either fearless or stupid. One of the two. And, but you, you, you really do need to take these guys seriously. And, and I wasn't. And, and what I, what, what I decided was, Hey, uh, I can go up here on the hillside a little bit away, eat, eat my, eat my sandwich. And then I'll take my bone saw and get those antlers off. There was a nice six by five rack. I'll do that real quick before that bear comes back. He's probably sleeping during the middle of the day. So I walk up there to where I'm going to eat my lunch. And. You're going to get some more, you're going to get some more food out at a carcass.

Some more, some more scent floating around. A dinner, Kipper snacks.

All right. So here we are. We're at the lunch site. You're going to saw these antlers off. Then what? So, uh, uh, I, I had just dropped my vest on the ground and I hear something that sounds like a bulldozer coming through the brush from down the draw. And I look and, uh, that there is a boar coming up the draw that, uh, it, I mean, he's, he's probably about 800 pounds. He's, he's a good, good size grizzly. He's, he's bigger than anything I've seen. I said, well, uh, I'll, I'll do what I did this morning. I'll let out my loudest, fiercest yell that he will run off. Well, I, I, is he running, is he running at you full board or is he, what's he doing? No, he's not running yet. He's just kind of, he isn't aware of me yet. He hasn't smelled me. He hasn't seen me. He's just ambling through the brush.

And he's, uh, he's, he's just so, so big and, uh, oblivious to unafraid of anything else in the woods that he's just breaking all kinds of brush and limbs as he's walking through the brush. And I, I start to let out my loudest, fiercest yell. And I didn't get out one 10th of the first syllable. And he instantly, instantly through reflex action charges me like a runaway horse. And I don't know why I'm laughing. I'm sorry. I, you're, you're live now. We're talking to you. That's the reason why we can laugh. But it, uh, that's intense. He heard a dying rabbit, John.

Your yell was a dying rabbit. That's probably what I sounded like to him. A rabbit call. Yeah. So now he's in gear and he's headed at you. It's full bore. How far away is he? He's about 80 yards away. And I, I considered grabbing my bow and trying to shoot him for a nanosecond. But the one good decision I probably made that day was to not do that. And I was really lucky in that about three running steps behind and below me, there's a fir tree that's got a, a branch at about nine feet high. And, and I just turned and ran and jumped. And there was a tree and brush leaning across against that tree. And as I was running, I remembered thinking, how am I going to get through that? But, uh, it, it wasn't a good time for detailed analysis. Uh, I just figured I would get my hands on that limb and figure out how to get through the brush in the tree.

And the next thing I knew, I, I, I'd, I'd caught the limb and I had swung my legs up over a limb because I could hear the bear coming right behind me. And I wanted to make sure he couldn't get my legs because they were hanging down. And I swung my legs up over another limb and looked down and the bear was at the bottom of the tree. And how far up are you at this point? Like, I'm, I'm, I'm hanging on that nine foot limb with my legs over another branch at about that height. But the bear with an eight foot isn't even looking at, huh? With an eight foot bear and you're nine foot up the tree.

Which, which concerned me greatly because I was, I was aware that I wasn't necessarily out of the reach of a big bear. Uh, so when I looked down, the bear is not looking at me. In fact, he's, he's totally unconcerned with me. He's walking off towards the carcass. So as far as he concerned, he did his job. He ran you off and now he's going back to guard his kill. And your bow, your bows, your bows 10 yards away and your arrows 10 yards from your bow and just laying on the ground. Your pack, your lunch, everything. You have whatever's on your person and that's it. And you, you're now in a tree. Yep. So there was so much adrenaline in my system. And, and I remember thinking analytically, my conscious mind that it, that, uh, the bear is walking away. He's going to the carcass. He's no longer interested in you. But my arms and legs were shaking and there was so much adrenaline in me.

And just my primal instincts were to keep climbing. And I climbed up that tree and partially to just dissipate the adrenaline in my system. And partially because my, uh, primal intuitive instincts were to go as high in that tree. Yeah. Yeah. Just want to survive. Get away from that thing. Climb aside. It must've been a big tree, big diameter. If you went, just kept going and going. Not a little, not a little tree by any means. It was a big tree. When I, I estimate that when I got to the top where it was, and I went so high, there was probably the diameter of my wrist and I was about 80 feet tall. That's 80 feet high.

Yeah. You're lucky it didn't snap off. Oh, the way your luck was going. Yeah. There's no wind and no, no swaying up there. No, it was, it was a calm day. It, and, and part of the reason I kept climbing is that at that time, I didn't know that grizz have pretty well straight nails on their feet. So they aren't good. Yeah. Uh, climbers. Yeah. Well, whereas black bears can climb like a cat. Uh, but I, I wasn't interested in researching how well they could climb. Pull your phone out and Google it. You didn't have 3G and you weren't checking stuff out like that. Yeah. You were just, survival instincts kicked in. Like you said, you just get me away from that. In the meantime, the bear, what do you do? Go over the carcass and just, what do you do? He went over to the carcass and he started eating rotten, rotten, rotten elk meat.

And I can, I can hear him just going, womp, womp, womp, chewing rotten elk meat. And then I would hear a big gulp when he swallowed. And then he would look up at me in the tree and he would growl and snap his jaws and make hostile noises. Uh, and then he would go back to eat, eat, eating rotten, uh, elk meat. And this continued for quite a while. And I began to contemplate my situation because, uh, he's eating about a quarter of that elk. And it, it looks like he's going to be around there until that elk is eaten. And you're, you're trying to decide how long am I going to be stuck up here? Yeah. You're starting to now rationally think over a few things. Might be here all night. Or yeah. Days. Or how long, if he's going to sit here for days, I can't get down. What, what, you know, all these realities are kind of hitting you. He's just, he's just protecting his kill.

I mean, you could have been another bear for all he cared. He just was running out. He was thinking you were wanting to eat the meat, you know? Oh yeah. He was just, just protecting his meat. He, he obviously preferred his rotten elk meat to, to me. Yeah. But I'm, I'm sitting in the top of this tree and I'm thinking, well, eventually I have to come down out of this tree or fall out of it. And he's going to be there when I come down. Well, I, I'd, by this point, I'd been hunting in this basin for 10 or 11 days. I haven't seen anybody else. I haven't heard anybody else. I haven't found a foot track of any other hunters. Uh, you're alone. I have no, I have no hope that anybody's going to discover me. This may be drug on for hours or whatever. Did he ever go over to your pack? Did he rummage through that and eat stuff out of that?

Or was he just concentrated on the elk and that's all he cared about? The only thing he cared about was that carcass. He had no interest in my pack or my, my sandwich or anything else. Uh, but, but while I'm up in the top of that tree trying to figure out what in the hell I'm going to do, you know, I, I'd pulled out my cell phone and of course there's no signal. I can't get 9-1-1 or anything else. Uh, nothing's, nothing's working. Uh, I hear a horse blow and oh, way, way back when I had started, um, I had run into some hunters at the trailhead and one of them had limited use of his legs and he had a special tag, um, that, that allowed him to rifle hunt during, uh, archery season. And I was so impressed that anybody, uh, with his, uh, challenges was out on horseback hunting elk that I, I gave up what I considered to be one of the better places to hunt elk.

And, uh, I heard, heard this horse blow. So, so I started yelling for all I was worth, help, help. And after a few minutes, these two laconic Wyoming cowboys come down the, down the mountainside and they're just laughing like hell. And one of them says, boy, what are you doing up in the top of that tree? Yeah. They had, if there's any other, they had to know, yeah. Somebody would. They knew, they knew that they're going to be getting you out of a situation. There's probably a story they're about to hear in just a minute. So did you watch them bump the grizz off? Like you told me. Yeah. What did they do? What did the bear do when you started yelling? Did he come back underneath you or did he head come up or did he start paying attention to the horses, horseback guys? Well, when, when they, when they asked me what I was doing up there, I told them there was a bear down there killing.

And they says, no, we like bears. They're cute.

They're just loving the fact that you're 80 foot up in this tree. They know now that probably the situation's kind of into control, but they're going to, they're going to jab you in the ribs a little bit and razz you, huh? Absolutely. And, uh, we, we have this debate back and forth about whether grizzly bears are, are cute. And all this, all this yelling and talking made the, the bear nervous. And they had a seven, seven mag and they had a big pistol and, uh, that the bear got nervous and he, he kind of ambled off kind of going left and right. And every time he would, every, every few steps he would stop and look up at me and growl and snap. And he, he wandered off and disappeared into, into the timber. And, uh, I came down out of the tree and they, they told me. Did they come right over to you before you got out?

Cause I'm picturing me in that tree and I wouldn't come down until their horses were on both sides of my tree before I would come down. I'm picturing myself in California.

You know, I'm not, they're not going to be 200 yards away on their way to the tree. They're going to be their horses tied to the bottom of my tree before I come. That's just the reality of it. After that situation. They, they, they came right to the, to, to the bottom of the tree and they had their guns. So, uh, they, they escorted me out of there and they told me that what they were in, these were the guys that I had told about this, this area to hunt. And, uh, they told me they were sitting up there on the, on the ridge, uh, in the sun, eating their, eating their lunch. And they heard all this commotion break out. And, uh, then they, uh, and they were talking back and forth and they were, they said, I wonder if that's somebody down there getting beat up by a bear. And they were just, they were, they were just up there debating all that.

And what they were hearing is, uh, the, the, uh, the bear, uh, running through the brush. So. Wow. So, and then, so they saddled up and just by chance were within earshot of that, which on any wind or you're over a ridge or something like that, I shudder to think they didn't hear you. I don't know how this story was, would end. I re you know, I know you've probably replayed that in your mind a whole lot, John, if they didn't hear, because really that initial commotion, the bear charging you, you yelling at it for a brief second and whatever that didn't, that, that was only a brief period, you know, onto the hours or whatever. After that, then you're pretty silent. You're up in a tree, the bears down there. There's not a lot to yell and scream about there. You're just thinking what's going to happen. What's next. Hmm.

It, the, the, the only thing that caused me to yell was I happened to hear that horse blow. And I, I started yelling as loud as I could for help at that point. And, and, and, uh, they heard that and they connected my yelling for help with the commotion before that. Yeah. The, the, the bear crashing through the brush coming after me. Uh, and they, they said, yep, we better go check on this. And, and they, they, they were, they were really good guys. And, uh, they, they, they, they saved my keister because I don't know how I'd have gotten out of that area, uh, because that bear. That's pretty humble. That's pretty humbling and pretty helpless. I mean, you're really, I don't care how good a shape you're in. When you're in that situation where a dominant boar grizzly has exactly what he wants and they also have their disposition.

They're not, you're not just going to yell and run them off, but they got what they want and you're up a tree helpless. Well, at some point you got to think over the next few days, if I don't fall asleep and fall out of this tree, he's got to leave or go drink water or something. And you're going to be able to just kind of skinny out of there. You're going to try it and maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't. Yeah. It could be rough. So, so you get down out of the tree, gather up your bow, your gear. Do you, do you saw the elk antlers off? Uh, I, what I did is I went back to Wood River Lodge and, uh, talk to Pierce, Pearson Hodges, the ranch manager who is the outfitter and so forth. Yeah. And, uh, he, he called up a number of guides and so forth that he uses. And, and the first thing that happened, and he told them what the situation was.

And, and then, then, then they called him back and they, they told him, well, listen, I've, I've got a family that I've got to feed and so forth. Uh, I, I don't think I should be doing this, but finally he, he put together, uh, a group. Uh, I think there was five of us and, and, and, and the Foskies, the, the two Wyoming cowboys I was talking about that rescued me. Yeah. Yeah. And, and they came with us. So five of us went in there and they were, they were so, uh, concerned about the bear that I was carrying a single action 357 Magnum and they wanted me to cock it. They didn't want me to be standing there pulling the trigger at the bear King charges out. They wanted me to carry a cocked 357 because of the, of the, the speed of those animals. And these guys are all veteran hunters and, uh, outfitters like, like yourselves.

And they, they knew what they were dealing with and they knew how fast these things can be. But yeah, they didn't, they didn't want to hear, I missed that bear no less than three times. I mean, they wanted everybody to connect. You can tell that I can only imagine, you know, you're going back into, you're asking for it. You're going back into save antlers. Yep. Five by six bull. And, and knowing you're going to, he's going to be there, he's going to be there, you know, or figuring it will be. Yeah. We, we expected him to be there. And, uh, I, I think there was just enough of, enough of us, uh, that he, he, he decided to lurk off into the brush, slide off into the brush rather than take on five of us, which is a good thing for everybody. Yeah. Uh, but, uh. Well, looking back on it, um, you know, what did you learn? Was there any tips you'd give other guys?

Would you go back and hunt that same country? What did you do different? Did it scare you off or, I mean, what would you do? Well, the first thing I did when I got back, I, I researched, uh, pistols to carry because I have no intention of stopping to bow hunting. Uh, Adam got me a, a great tag in unit 76 in Colorado this year, which only has black bears, which are actually just. They're, they're pets compared to grizzlies. That's right. Well, um, black bears are actually have a higher kill rate per attack than grizzly bears. I've, I've learned. Uh, they're, and the difference between grizzly bears is they're, they're fearsome animals and they'll tear you all to pieces, but they usually attack because you're close to their food, their salmon stream, their cubs, you're on their trail. The black bears, when they attack you, they generally kill you and eat you.

So there's a big difference there. But I, I was charged with a black bear and I shot him and killed him. And in the story, where was that? I, that was in California. It was actually down, uh, almost inside of downtown LA. Come on. So let's see. Do we have to go in this story too? Like, uh, what's. No. How long? Okay. All right. Was it a, was it, were you, I mean, you've got guts. I'm just going to admit, I don't know anybody that would stay in grizzly country like you did. So this black bear experience must've been a pretty intense experience because you probably wouldn't have killed him if he didn't need it. Well, what happened is my, my friend and I had backpacked in, into what's called the Sespi wilderness. The Sespi wilderness is one of the condor sanctuaries where they, they nest, but you can backpack in there to, uh, to hunt.

There's, we weren't in the condor sanctuary, but there's a Sespi wilderness and we were in the Sespi wilderness. And we had set up camp and we got there a little early. So we started up this, uh, uh, canyon to draw kind of a valley. And I heard something way back under a big, uh, oak tree that sounded like somebody raking leaves. And I said, that could be a bear raking the leaves, looking for acorns. So I started up a dry wash and I saw a silhouette way back in the shadows under this tree going from left to right. And I put my scope on him. And, um, as I'm tracking him with my scope, he, a big black boar stepped into a ray of sunlight and I let him have it. And, uh, the, the bone that, and I tried to do a heart shot, but the bone that comes down the, between your elbow and your shoulder in my efforts to hit the heart, I hit that bone and broke it, but it deflected, deflected the bullet.

So I didn't get a killing shot. And he, uh, just went berserk. He pulled out small trees. He attacked another tree. Um, and I took another shot at him, but just as I shot, he jumped in the air in his frantic, uh, rage. And when he hit the ground, he decided I was the source of his problems. And he charged down the mountain at me. And one of the things I'd always practice with a rifle is shooting with both eyes open. So I could bring the crosshairs to the target on a moving, moving animal. And I got really lucky. I couldn't do this once in a hundred times. And the, I hit, hit the spinal cord in between the head and the shoulders and severed it and blew out the dorsal aorta at the same time. And he turned two summer stalls and stopped with his nose on the ground and his mouth open, blood running out 10 feet from me. So you were, you were bear hunting. You were actually there bear hunting.

I was, I had a bear tag, but I was primarily deer hunting. And we were in there deep enough that there's a lot of bear. And, and, and, and this, there's another part to this story. When we were packing that bear out, um, we, we were carrying it out and we were debating whether to put the meat that we were carrying in a tree and go back, or we should keep going in the dark. Well, just about the time that it got dark, we decided to put the meat in a tree. Yeah. And we came up a switch, we came up a switchback slope and came around a turn. And you know how cats get down real low and kind of slither along the ground. Well, here, here comes about a 90 pound female mountain lion with distended utters. It's right down on the ground with her nose down on the ground, not looking at tracking us. And I'm sure we were laying down a delicious scent trail with that meat in our backpacks. Jeez.

So now what makes this story good? We had decided to leave our rifles and camp because we were carrying all. You're just shuttling meat now. Yeah. You're just back shuttling meat and stuff. Yeah. Wow. And my hunting partner, I wanted to take the rifles, but my hunting partner says, no, you're going to kill something else. And I don't want to help carry anything else out of here. Because this was a, this was a, I think this black bear scored 20 and a half and you have to score 20, 21. 21. That's a big bear. 21. Like Boone and Crockett. And, uh, anyway, uh, this, this mountain lion just stops 20, 20 yards from me, staring me right in the eyes with her, with her tail twitching left and right. And I'm yelling for Hirsch to come up so she can see there's two of us. And finally, Hirsch puffs around the corner. What's, what's wrong? What's the matter? Jeez.

And I, and I pointed at the mountain lion staring at us. And when she saw there was two of us, she turned and went back up the trail, turned sideways, stared at us for a moment or two, and then, then leapt up into the brush and disappeared. But if we'd kept going in the dark, she would have probably caught up with us from behind and it might've been very interesting. Yeah. Well, we know your lions in California. I mean, in general terms, they've lost a lot of their inhibition. Aversion and fear for humans because of the inability to hunt them. And so they're just trying to eat. And when they're not, don't associate people with hunters or dogs or houndsmen or anything like that, that's what you get. So, so, so other than a pistol after your experience in Wyoming and, and, and now after this experience, well, probably is earlier than your grizzly experience, that bear, black bear.

What other than a pistol, what else did you learn about this that you can maybe help other listeners or support some of their hunting States like, you know, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, some of the States that they may encounter grizzlies. So you got a pistol now, if you go back, what else do you think? You want to carry a pistol. I researched pistols. A 44 Magnum is big enough to kill a bear that the research on grizzly bears is you can shoot a grizzly bear in the heart at a quarter of a mile. He can run a quarter of a mile and they've got enough oxygen in their system that if you blow their heart out at a quarter of a mile, they can run to you and still kill you before they die. So you need something like a 44 Magnum, but a 44 Magnum is so big and heavy that it's a real thing to carry. So what a lot of people do is instead of carrying a 44 Magnum or some other really large pistol

around you, you get a 357. That's a small enough pistol that you can carry it. And you just hope you can shoot them enough times to deter them. Uh, but you have to take the food, uh, absolutely seriously. You don't, I don't cook things like bacon or anything that's going to put out a lot of sand in camp. Uh, I prefer things that don't have a lot of sand. You, you seal your food up, you put it in a tree. You don't store it in camp. Uh, you don't go out hunting with scent from food on your clothes and hands and so forth. You, you probably shouldn't be hunting in areas with grizzly bears by yourself. Uh, and you, you stay completely away from any kind of carcass cubs, uh, and do, do your research and take them seriously because they, they are serious. The grizzly bears are, are impossible to stop and the black bears are, are crafty and they

will in, in the Sierras in California, they, they track pack trains to the camp and cause big problems. And they, they're, they're like the mountain lions, which are what you think it's called being habituated. They're used to people. They've lost their fear of you. Well, and to some extent we've heard the same thing and that's why you see such aggressive behavior for, from these grizzly bears in Wyoming through a lot of the other hunters and outfitters. We, we research as we're talking about sheep or goat or elk units in the, in the state. They, they, you know, there's a lot of instances where they'll kill a bull or two out of a herd and, and they've got bears on them within 15 minutes. And you know how, you know, these bears are associating these hunters and gunshots and places like that with, all right, there's a free, there's a free meal.

And, you know, just once again, they're, they're, they're not hunted. Now there's been recently some news releases let out. The U S fish and wildlife service is proposing delisting them, um, which is, which is good news. They've, they've far exceeded their initial recovery goals, but we all know that's probably going to be a, a fairly long drawn out legal battle, just like the wolves were until we got to where we are now. But regardless of that for right now in this discussion, yeah, they just don't have any fear. They've, they've recovered. They've, they've been unmolested. And, and other than some serious problem bears and really life or death situations, you know, they don't get removed or killed. So they don't have any fear. And they associate in some cases, every hunter up there and camp and, and that with potential food and they own the mountain.

So like you said, you've got to give them all the respect you, you can and do everything you can, but you're still going to encounter them, um, more than likely if you're hunting some of these units. So, um, a lot of what you said is very, very good information and very wise. I, you know, we're, we take it for granted and I like it. I like Utah, Nevada, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, frankly, more because I can throw my bag out wherever I am at night. And of course we all in mountain lion and black bear country down here, but not, not, don't have to worry about the grizzlies. And it's a different, if it, it's a totally different mindset when you're hunting up there. It, yes, it is that all the predators, your, your, your black bears, your grizzly bears, your mountain lions and wolves have become habituated.

The difference with the grizzly bear is once he decides to come get you, he's nearly impossible to stop unless you've got a high powered rifle and you make a good shot or a big pistol. And, uh, that, that black bear I hit, I couldn't do that once in a hundred times. You're not likely to stop them. Even if you have a four 57 Magnum, when they're charging, you're at point blank range, you're just toast is the reality. So you, uh, I want to reinforce that all those predators have become habituated, which means used to people and dogs and so forth. And they're much more dangerous than they used to be at the, a big different mountain lines in California. But the, the grizzly bears are just completely off the chart. They have no fear of anything in the woods at all. They're the bigger and they're the dominant predator. There's nothing out there.

Plus with the protection that they've had in the lower 48, like we've discussed, there's no, there's no reason for them to be afraid of people. There's their food sources and they don't bother them. They don't kill them. They don't shoot at them, you know? So yeah, you're right. Well, we want to thank you, John, for spending some time with us. You know, I know you got some hunts lined up and then, uh, you know, your buddy, Peter, uh, worked with him a little bit and got him drawn on a couple of tags. Did he, did he mention that to you? Oh, he called me up. He was so excited. He, he drew unit 55 and 44 for elk and deer. I know. I, I, I, I hand, I hand picked those. Well, he was actually, uh, you know, he, as you know, he's a meat hunter and he not even not nothing to do with the trophy. So we picked some seasons that had a little better drawing ons.

I just could not believe it when we looked up his results. I guess he's going to, I guess he's going to have to buy a rifle this year. Oh, he and I have been talking and emailing at, at length, but I looked up the statistics on those units that you gave him. And they're both, uh, they're both excellent units with good quality trophy bucks and reasonable odds to draw. Yeah. Reasonable odds. This is in Idaho. Yeah. In Idaho. But, but to draw them both is just amazing. I mean, he, at least last year's statistics were one in 10 on one and one in five on the other, but still to draw them both. It's pretty awesome. Yeah. No points. He wasn't one of those guys like yourself. Let's build a bunch of points and across the West and called us late in the year and wanted to maybe get into a little hunting probably because of your, uh, involvement and influence. Exactly. Right.

And, you know, Idaho fit that bill because there is no point system there. And so, um, I guess he's going to go have some fun. It was awesome. I'm glad he's excited. I left him a message, but I just, I hadn't heard from him. And so anyway, I'm glad he's excited. Oh, I, I didn't get your message, but Peter and I were, were waterfowl hunting one day on one of those cold, wet, snowy, icy days. And we were kind of grumbling about the weather and waterfowl hunting. So I said, Peter, you got to take up big game hunting. You're hunting on dry land, often in Indian summer weather and so forth.

Convinced him to give you guys a call and try something else. Well, and we, we appreciate it. We were glad to be able to get him some tags. And so anyway, well, we're looking forward to some more stories from you, John. We sure appreciate the support and appreciate, uh, you know, our relationship over the years. And, uh, and we'll just keep on plugging away and providing you those awesome, uh, grizzly opportunities.

Okay. Well, thank, thank you for all your support. And over the years, it's changed my life and, uh, look forward to working with you next to break. All right. So that's right. Have a good fall. Thanks, buddy. Okay. Bye. All right. Bye. Thank you.