EP 379: Q&A Part 3, When to Draw What Tags, When to Pull the Trigger, Mexico High Fence Mule Deer and a Bear Attack Story

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Hey everybody, Jason Carter, Adam Bronson. Of course, hey, Wyatt, how are you? Yeah, I'm here. Devin, how are you? Good. John, you good? I'm here. I'm good. You do good? I'm great. Hey everybody, just appreciate you listening to the Epic Outdoors podcast. Yes, powered by Epic. How about that? Powered by Epic and the Expo, I guess. Right, John? Yeah. Powered by the Expo. Hunt Expo today is a sponsor. Because next week is the Hunt Expo, right? So hopefully everybody's going February 12th to the 15th. We've got an ad course in the publication. You can find it anywhere. Go to huntexpo.com. Check it out. Is it huntexpo.com? Yeah. How about that? Rolled off my tongue. Nice. So anyway, go to there. Apply for the tags. That's what everybody's doing. 200 permits. Yeah. Right, Wyatt, have you already applied? I have, yeah. It seems like you were on the bottom of the pile. The absolute first.

Well, I guess it depends on if they flip it, you know? Okay. Okay. Well, top bottom. Trying something new this year. Top bottom. I was with Wyatt. When Wyatt did something, I did it. Right after him. Okay. So anyway, I don't understand why. I don't understand it. You, Cash. I mean, before Adam and I even knew that they had published this list online and was available to apply for, you guys had your applications in. Yeah. Yeah. Just saw it. And I'm like, I might as well just get it done. It was like there was an excitement. Like just, ooh. It was a while ago. This is what year? I think it's because you didn't get in on the Idaho General and you were just disgusted with yourself. And you needed to make an application. It was about the same time, I think. Yeah. December, right? It probably was about the same time. Yeah. He didn't want FOMO again. He led the pack this time.

So, Wyatt, are you going to apply for all those tags in the Utah General or the Idaho General that are available right now? In the second draw? Yeah. Most likely not. Really? Yeah. Most likely not. But you already had FOMO first go around. No, that was you that had FOMO first go around. And we've heard about it every day since. Not every day. Yeah, Jason. Every other day. We're actually, today is the fifth or sixth, whatever. It's open. So, whatever that means. I just wish I could give him what I am. Wishes he was back in his desk right now. I love the kill. Yeah, I do. I actually wish I was in. Why don't you just apply right now? Well, because. Walk people through the steps. No. Not going to. But I do like that kill. Bronson, you and I were talking about that. The kill of obtaining tags. Securing. And then the kill of letting them go.

And the release of my schedule opened up, my funds have opened up, and letting that tag go. Filing them in the drawer. Filing them in the drawer. I was going to say, what is your process to let them go? Just file up and forget? Okay, I think I should go get a stack of tags for a minute. I don't know. Why don't you just do the same principle? Raise a bunch of chucker and pheasant, raise them, and then actually let them go. Just do that. See if you get the same fulfillment. Instead of spending $400 or $500. The older I get, it's very possible I'd get very fulfilled by doing that. You know, the older you get, you change a little bit. Grab tags. It's my own way of doing a Muley's Matter. I don't punch the tag. I put it in the drawer. I don't punch the tag. I put it in the drawer. It makes me feel good. I've done that for years. You have the option.

You have the option to head north at any time if you have a tag and go to Idaho this fall. I have the option. Gives you the option. I have the option to waste gas. Yeah. New sets of tires. Whatever. Try out. All the things. Try out a research. New side-by-side. I'd probably need a new side-by-side to eat another tag. Try your TW on a mountain trail somewhere. Anything like that. Anyway. All right. So, moving right along. Anybody that's interested, we're going to be at the Hunt Expo. So, February 12th to the 15th, we'll have a booth there. I think it's 2744, if I remember. You're correct. Pretty awesome. Come check it out. We're going to have a ton of optics, in fact. We're going to be giving some away, too, John. Yeah. Talk to us about that. What people got to do to enter. Is that through email only or what? I can't remember. No. You can sign up on our website.

We're going to give away a few of our demo models that we have at the booth, the show, at the end of the show. These aren't scratch and dent. These are literally just. Never been in the field. They're just sitting there. No. Just sitting there. People will be looking at them. Range finder. On the shelf there. Final. Give away a six-hour. Yep. My vinyl. So, on Sunday. A couple of vinyl. Yeah. Come by the booth, and you can enter. We'll have a QR code there. You also, you can do it on our website, but let me look up that link. It's kind of hidden right now. It's kind of a secret. Well, I didn't want to put you on the spot, but I just knew, hey, we're doing stuff. You might get an email from the Hunt Expo, too, if possible. Yeah. If you've been on their register in the past. Yeah. Okay. It's epicoutdoors.com slash giveaway signup. Giveaway signup. One word.

So, we're giving, not to be confused with all the hunts that we're giving away right now. No. No, do they have to. That's totally something. Yeah. Totally. That's different. That's just that one. Yeah. That's just your email and your contact information. Yeah. No, not buying an entry. It's just, hey, sign up, and we're going to give some free stuff away. All right. I like it. But, speaking of free stuff, Logan, what do we got to give away today? We did probably one of my favorite giveaways we've ever done, the Epic Big Stuff giveaway. Of course, it was your idea. Good grief. That's what makes it my every giveaway that I come up with is my favorite. This was the most successful one ever. And it was my idea. It was. And it is. Thank you. Thank you. I like it. It was awesome. And I have to agree, Logan, it was a great idea. I had a blast looking.

I didn't know there was so much big stuff out there. It got me pumped up, wanted me to get attacked, made me want to get attacked. So, these videos, Logan, just to paint the accurate picture of these videos from 1953 to now. Back when you were a kid. Yeah. Okay. I mean, there was no date on them, right? No. No. We could post it from any time frame. And some of them included squirrels. We had a pine hen entry. That was very interesting. Yeah. All right. So, yeah. We're going to give away a pair of Zeiss Terra ED 10x42s. We're going to spin the wheel right now. We had a bunch of people in her. So, that's an awesome looking wheel. Thank you. You guys made fun of me when I just had a boring wheel, so I put some color on it. Yeah. We should be videoing this spin. Kind of hard to. Yeah. It's kind of cool. All right. Here. Do it, Logan. Here we go. Just for proof.

It's going to shoot some confetti at the end. I did that. Did that for you guys. How about that? GenC4 is the winner. That's his Instagram handle. Who is it? GenC4. I don't know. I'll look him up. Still waiting for the confetti. Maybe it didn't work. I'm not a very good. I'm pretty sure that's not the pine hen. I'm not a very good programmer. Maybe you have to push OK. I like it.

GenC4 is Easton GenC. No kidding. What did they send it? Here in Paralyze? What did they send it? That's Jim GenC's kid. His entry. He must have tagged us on a story. That's crazy. Small world. I was legitimately blown away when I went to our story, and it was one after another after another. I think that's two. It was a very concise, short application. Yeah. It's nice. Wow. A new hashtag has been born, and it will be used hard from here for us. Yeah. Epic big stuff. His video. I like it.

A bull. Oh, you got a buck right there. All right. Yeah, he had some good stuff. Was it a bull or a buck? I couldn't. I think you did, too, and it switched to the one right in the middle of it. Oh, okay. Okay. Well, good. That's pretty good. We're just doing a little species evaluation with Logie Bear. Make sure he knows his animals. I do. I know the big three. So, Logan, if somebody wants to go review the footage that was submitted, how would they do that? Yeah, we're going to put them all on a highlight on our Instagram profile, so you can just go to our Instagram profile at epic underscore hunts, and there will be a little circle there in the highlight section called Epic Big Stuff. No kidding. Look at them there. Nice. How are we doing that? I like a screen record, and so you went and screen recorded everything to do that highlight reel?

No, everything on your story, you can just pin to your profile, basically, so it stays there. So, we're going to do that, so you can go look at it. So, you pinned them all. Awesome. And we are going to incorporate some of these into our expo video on our backdrop. Yeah. So, anybody, we actually need the raw on that, right, Logan? Yeah. So, anybody that participated, you're going to be getting a DM from our Instagram account here pretty soon, and you can give us the raw footage that you submitted for the drop box link. Google Forms, yep, for the Google Drive, and then we'll put you up on our expo video on our big backdrop. Tag your Instagram with your name. At the expo on the giant screen. So, yeah, if you participated, be looking out for that DM. We'd love to have your footage. Might be a good tradition for here on out. Yeah. Who made the expo epic outdoors video.

And then we should give some kind of a winner, fave, fan fave, or something like that. Instead of a random generator, you say? Give away the farm. It was pretty fun to watch Jana's eyes on this giveaway. Yeah. What? Well, she just kind of, she came in and she goes, why? Why what? Why are we giving away so much? Why are we giving away a pair of $4,000 pair of vinyls or something like that? I was like, I don't know. Glass job. Because right now it doesn't seem like a good idea. Anyway, it was pretty funny. Yeah. It's true. Sometimes we give away the farm here. All right. Well, let's dive in. We did get a magazine in the mail, by the way. Yep. Yep. Pretty funny. Nice to have the Wyoming elk and Arizona elk and antelope deadlines over, right? Would you concur? Oh, for sure. Yeah. So, those are some big ones here. Wyatt, you still don't have color in your face.

Wyatt's been playing the Brooks and Dunn song, I'm a brand new man, every Wednesday.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. It feels good to have those ones behind. It's just kind of first couple deadlines of the year. It does. It does. Just busy time for license application. On to Colorado, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah, anything else that comes out. Yeah. Still plenty more to go. Yeah. There are. But the first ones are hard because we're doing the license app client renewals, and it's just the whole world's chomping. And now we've got to, you know, with Utah being moved, there's nothing until New Mexico really now. So, we get a little bit of a, as far as application deadlines. Yeah. Unless you do turkeys and bears and crap like that. Oregon bear. So, if you miss the deadline, there's one way to guarantee you're not going to miss the deadline. That's give us a call and let us do it for you. Yeah. We've got a few of those calls. A little hard sell there, John. Good work. Good work. Yeah.

Sponsored by Epic. I mean, it's shocking how many people miss deadlines. Yeah. I talk to a poor fellow yesterday. Between our emails and the states anymore, I mean, Arizona emailed me at least five times in the last probably week. Maybe five times a week for the past five months. And I get them. I get them to my work email and personal. So, every time I get them twice. Yeah. Wait till Nevada gets rolling here soon. With five of them. Five times a week. Hurry. Renew your license. New Mexico said yesterday time running out. Did you get that one? Yes. Time running out. Time running out for New Mexico. But they also had all their draws like turkey and bear, which is in like 10 days from now. Technically true. So, but it was kind of like just, okay, March 18th. Well, and in their defense, they're walking through people how to get into their portal system.

And then, you know, it's not the most user-friendly in the world. So, you're going on there and they're like, ah. All right. If you wait till the last minute, I mean, sometimes sites go down, things happen, you know, like. Credit cards could be. People go home. Credit cards. People go home and go to bed. Yeah. Right, Wyatt? Right. 9 p.m. comes, we're out. But I get it. Sometimes, like, you know, if you're running a business or you've got stuff you're doing, like, sometimes, you know, a deadline will come and go. And you're like, oh, that was on my list, but I didn't get to it. So, man, just a little insurance on, you know, not missing out on a deadline, not missing points. Just call us. Or do a, Wyatt, doesn't apply the first day a state opens. Yeah. Just be on top of the pile. Right? Just do it. Then you never worry at the deadline time. That's just expo tags.

Usually the hunt applications, I'm very last. Oh, okay. Well, there is one other thing that I want to push. It's our weekly drawing. And just because you've got to act fast to get in on this one, if you get ticket package, any ticket packages for our hunt giveaway from February 1st through February 7th, then you'll be automatically entered to win a pair of Sig Sauer Zulu 6 HDX Pro 16x50 stabilized binoculars. And so you've got to do it by Saturday. Saturday's the 7th at midnight. Then it'll be closed after that. So you can still get in for our hunt giveaway after the 7th, but you'll miss this, the Zulu 6 HDX Pro binos. So go to epicoutdoors.com and get your tickets so you'll be in this drawing as well. All right. You guys, we can get back to the other stuff. Interesting. All right. Well, since we're talking about some states, we talked about New Mexico and states, there's a question here.

This is, we get this question a lot because we do get guys that maybe approach retirement age and they talk about moving to one of the western states. So what is the best state to live in for hunting? It's an amazing question that comes up all the time. I'm thinking, I don't have options. Otherwise, I'd probably be in Arizona to, well, I mean, you know, for six or eight months. It is good. It is good. It's just that that is still a draw. It's good to be in a great trophy draw and a resident draw if you have a lifetime license. But just for, if you think about, for me, like Wyoming, general deer and elk, what you can do just with those two. You kind of have to like the terrain, though. You know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? Like, do you like to hunt there? Like, I love this red sand and sandstone. Do you ever get tags in Utah or northern Arizona? No.

But I mean, but like if I wake up every day and I'm looking out my back window. So there's a difference maybe about. At Wyoming. Am I happy? The beautiful Grand Teton. Am I happy about that? Yeah, the Grand Teton. Beautiful. Snowcat and Peaks. Pretty good view. Do I want to start walking up there? Okay, so there's probably. Grab me a pair of snow shoes. It's the most amazing place on planet Earth. It's probably like Jason's answer for what he likes to wake up and see. He wants to see desert, no trees, sand. Nevada would probably be where I would. Dump sand out of his boots every day. But maybe from the perspective of for hunting and getting. Just tags. Tag acquisition and quality or whatever. What do you think? And I think a couple of game, waterfowl, things like that. What do you guys think? Awesome. What do you got? I'd probably look Wyoming.

But Nevada with that first come, first serve. I mean, move out there. You're going to be snagging tags left and right. Those guys are no joke. The residents are no joke. Can you believe that? I can't believe Wyatt threw that out. But of course, he played that game and has like a 375 bull on the ball because of it too. Then they took it away from us non-residents. That's right. So, yeah. For the most part. I'd quit letting us steal from the residents. Yeah. I'd still say probably Wyoming or Colorado. I mean, and I don't want to move. I'm not moving there. I wouldn't move there. But I mean, just what you can do with the Wyoming General Deer Tag or deer tags in Colorado with zero to three points is pretty amazing. You can do a lot with zero to three points. I mean, amazing. So much.

And now if you lived in Colorado and could really spend time on even some OTC or now these, you know, they're still OTC for them, archery units that residents and non-residents have to draw. Really good. I mean, Arizona's intriguing because you could be in the 90% pool the rest of your life. But you still got to draw every single tag other than OTC deer. So for me, I'd lean to where I can hunt a big mule deer every year. I like it too. Yeah. I would say Idaho, Wyoming. Arizona's pretty cool. Nevada. Wyatt's got a great point. He's got like five. He can't decide. It's just like lunch yesterday. He had FOMO. Next time we go, we have to make him order first somehow. I always am like, oh, that sounds really good. Then you're ordering. Man, why wouldn't I do that? I ordered. He didn't hear me. He's like, what'd you get? But at least the waitress was nice enough to come back around again.

She came back around and goes, all right, idiot. You sure? Would you like to change your order? Right? Devin, what do you think on these Western states? I'm with you guys. Idaho, Wyoming, Arizona. That's tough. I could be in Nevada too. I like Nevada. Yeah. Nevada's like the best state ever. It is. That's hard. For being there with generally low hunting numbers, you still have to draw your tag. I think for consistency of tags. You never hunt elk even as rich. I mean, a few times, a couple times in your life. Yeah. Consistency of tags, you're Wyoming, Idaho. Yeah. Seven-year wait kind of kills guys on that Nevada elk. Can you just imagine raising a family in Nevada with unlimited backyard and no people? Man. I saw an Instagram post from Derringer Outfitters, and they had all the kids and a lion in the tree. I showed Jenna, and she's like, that's the coolest thing I've seen in a long time.

And it was just, it's that kind of thing that we were raised that way, like being out and doing whatever and BB guns and all the things. And it's just, I don't know. I look at Nevada like, man, that'd be the last of the great cities. Here's a gas cannon, a four-wheeler, monoshock, whatever, Bronson from way back. Rancher. Honda Rancher. Yeah, Honda Rancher. Have fun, kid, you know. I don't know. That's what I think about when I think about like Nevada, the vast, big predators. I actually talked to a guy on the phone that said you guided him at a super young age, took him up somewhere on a four-wheeler before you were even old enough to drive. Really? Why do you have to bring this up? It's kind of an interesting story. You talk about the old monoshock four-wheelers. Statue of limitations is over, Carter. You guys were doubled up on there?

Hey, there was no BLM or forest use permits back then. And I was probably 10. My dad was like, you're taking these guys. And I'm like, right? Basically, I took them to a blind and then daylight hit and there was deer everywhere. Big buck. Yes. That's exactly what he told me. This was also in 1988 when there were big bucks. It was. Yeah, or before 88. It would have been more like 85, 86. The way he talked about it was like the first love of his life. Now, that spot has a special place in his heart forever. I have that effect on people.

Well, we're kind of getting into this other question. We talked about maybe from a residency standpoint, but Jason kind of morphed into what's everyone's favorite state to hunt and why, and you kind of talked about. Yeah, let's keep going. What's your favorite state, Wyatt? Ooh, I guess it depends on the permit you can get in those states. Or maybe the experiences you had in those states last year. Yeah. I really like Nevada. I had a great time out there on my elk hunt. Spent a lot of time out there in the past.

You know, Wyoming's been good to me. Colorado. Wherever I get a tag, I'm good with. It's true, though. It's true. I like, you like each state for a unique purpose, right? Frame it like this. For a unique reason. If there's one state you had to hunt for the rest of your life, which state would it be? If they're going to give me a good tag, Utah. I mean, just stay right here close to home. Yeah. Me, too. I like the country. It's why I tend to probably, when I go to Colorado, hunt a little bit of familiar-looking country that I hunt. I usually hunt far western Colorado, just because it looks a little bit more like where I grew up hunting. It's true. I like cedars and sage and Rimrock-y type stuff. And I like that kind of stuff when I hunt deer. I mean, elk, you just got to, you go where you go. You can hunt elk from cedars and sage to mountains.

Maybe that's why we're so passionate about the management here and whatnot. It's like we don't really want to hunt other places necessarily. You know what I mean? I'd love to have amazing hunting opportunities here. Right? We get pretty passionate right here in our backyard. You like Nevada, too. But I mean, you like Utah. But I mean. Yeah. I spend most of my time in Nevada for the most part. Yeah. I love that state. But again, like I said, you get an elk tag, your seven-year tag, JL. Antelope, your three. Yeah. I'm going to throw a shout out. Deer you can't draw. Yeah. You know. I'm going to throw a shout out to Colorado for one reason, and that's the dumb and dumber. So you're telling me I got a shot. And that is just any unit you're in, you could kill a big deer. Like, it's in the realm of possibilities. I thought you were going to say the affordable mechanic. No. Oh, yeah.

The affordable mechanic that I was able to bribe on a Sunday. In a storage unit. But you've had a lot of experiences in Colorado. And also different unique units, John. Yes. Clear in the very north. Clear all over the place. Yeah. Not like you're trying to protect it. It's kind of pretty tough. No. I mean, the last time I went there, I saw like six deer the whole time. I mean, and it was brutal. But you just never know. There, people pull out 200 inches out of bad units. I thought you were going to say people pull out of snow drifts. I've done my share of that. You know, the karma should come around sometime on that one. But anyway. Yeah. Yeah. You guys have had a lot of good experiences in Colorado. Yep. So you're telling me I got a shot. Yeah. Exactly. Remember? Chris pounded a 200 inch here years ago. Yep. Yep. And you just, one or two of those happened here and there.

At the time, it was a totally unknown unit. Like, it was on nobody's radar. Okay. Question reader guy. Where are we at? Okay. I've got a couple. I don't think you guys answered your favorite. Yeah, I was going to say. You kind of pinned us down. I think I like, I do like hunting. Pinyon juniper, say, and that's southern Utah, a lot of places. You know, Nevada fits that. Hard to get a tag in Nevada for deer areas that I like to hunt. But Colorado, I end up kind of using as a default because I can hunt there in similar type country if you find a tag in the right place. Northern Arizona, you can't hardly, I mean, who wouldn't want to hunt there, but you can't get a tag. So that's, that's what I like to hunt. I don't want to, I know that sounds like close to home answer, but that kind of is where you grew up. Just like people in Montana, they know, they like to hunt elk and stuff.

And a lot of places that hunt is different terrain than we hunted in. And that's where, I think that's where the majority of your experiences happen, right? So like then you're affectionate for that country. I'm affectionate for southern Utah, Nevada, that northern Arizona. That's my favorite stuff. That's why Wyatt loves the Nebo so much. Wyatt, you love it? Right out my back window my whole life. Some amazing experiences. Yeah. Haven't been back in, is it 10 years plus probably, 15? It's been a long time since I've been on the Nebo unit. Killing giants ever since. I grew up right there and loved it. That's where the term steeper than a cow's face came from. That's about mountain. Is that a saying? Yes, it is. I've never heard that. What? No, never. Horses and cows. You haven't heard that? No. It's steeper than a cow's face.

What was the other one, Adam, that you were misusing the other day that you said? I'm talking out loud. Yeah, I'm talking out loud. Instead of I'm thinking out loud, I've said it my whole life. I'm talking out loud. And my family teases me every time I say it. I don't even know why. Whatever. Loki Bears has to look this up. Go ahead. Read it. What it said right there. I just wanted to make sure you guys were making stuff up. What do you mean? No, it was there. Yeah, it's right here. What's it say? Steep as a cow's face is a descriptive idiom for an extremely, almost impossibly steep hill. Often used in hiking or rural context to describe, for instance, the steep as a cow's face trail in Whiskey Town or Nephi, Utah.

Just teasing one. So there we go, John. I can't even believe we had to look that up. I thought it was cool. I learned something today. John, you're Jason and I's age. I know. That's surprising. You haven't heard that. I grew up in the wrong small town. All right. Well, all right, Logan, maybe just as a precursor, because I'm going to have you look up, go to our online odds, Logan, so you can look this up. Go to Wyoming, a deer, and we'll get you something in a minute. But I've got one that's kind of a precursor. The guy's got questions on how many points to get this. But there's one question. Is there any hunt in Utah worth seven dedicated points? And they don't say if they're resident or non-resident, so let's just answer it for the fact if there's seven. So, I mean, worth is probably a – something requires that to draw, but worth it. Are we going to the Utah dedicated?

Yeah, we're doing that question. No, no, no, no. You're in Wyoming here. Stay there. That's the next one. Oh. That's why I got it teed up. Oh. Yep. So, I think it comes down to expectations. I mean – Yeah.

Exactly, yeah. That's absolutely worth it. Gives you three seasons to hunt. I mean, it could happen, like John's saying. I mean, it's really hard to say in three years from now it's going to be way better than it is now. Significantly better, you know. So, if you've got them, you've got to choose between the regular draw, Wyatt, or dedicated now. So, probably what these guys are asking. I've got – I can draw dedicated, but I can't draw, you know, a limited with a zero to one or two or whatever. So, in that case, yeah, take the tag. I mean, we are kind of – I guess you would say we're kind of reeling a little bit for some of these dry years. And I wouldn't say it's the best the general's been in the last five or eight years here right now. No, but it doesn't matter. When's it going to be good? When's it going to be better? You don't answer. And you get a little ebbs and flows in quality.

So, over that three-year period, you're going to have a couple of good years or one good year. Or a time when you're going to kill a nice ball. If it comes on too good and it starts doing better, they'll increase tags. And so, it just doesn't stay – your expectation is like, well, it says the best thing. So, dedicated is general. So, it's not like you've got – you shouldn't have Henry Mountains or Poncecon expectations, right, or Oak Creek expectations. So, it's awesome. You should absolutely be doing it. You can only kill two deer in three years if you're – By your hours. If this is a tough year, all right, there's your sit-out year right there. You get to kill the next couple. In this day and age, the price of tags and hunting and everything else that's going on for non-residents is not a bad deal. Yeah, I don't have the numbers in front of you.

We looked this up when we added the Utah stuff. It didn't raise like the other permit fees did, did it, Wyatt? No, it – The dedicated did not raise to the extent the other non-resent fees did. So, anyway, still pretty good value. So, yeah, the next question was, this guy wants to know, is five points in the special draw going to get me a Wyoming H tag this year? So, there we go. What do you got? Last year, it did. If all else be an equal, it will.

H. Yeah, go to H right there. H special. Special. And then over there, do both. Click on both. Right there. Or non-resent. Yeah. Regular, special. Okay, there we go. Scroll down. Boom. It's all on our website. By the way, last year we can see it did. But, I mean, factors that I see that changed this a little bit a couple years ago was the fee increase, Wyatt. Some people just aren't quite wanting to do that. But, obviously, some people are treading water after the winter of 03 and wondering, when should I go back? And then their tag numbers have been lower. And with these light winners, you can start to see tag numbers start to come back up, which could counteract point creep. So, I don't know. Well, the other thing you've got is last year, that guy with five had four. Four. So, he wasn't a shoe in last year. That's right.

So, he grew with the other 53% that didn't draw, 54% that didn't draw. So, anyway, it's hard to know if he's got a 100% shot, but he's also got a random shot. And if you look up there, there was guys last year that drew with, what is that, 11, 9, 8. All these guys are crossovers coming from the sidelines, points only guys, or they're switching from regular or boosting a buddy or something like that. So, as people, as that harsh winter gets a little bit further and further behind, as people are a little more willing to go. I do think that that's going to impact point creep. But the good thing about Wyoming is they'll have to put in this year until June 1st. And we know permit numbers will be firmly set in April. And if they increase by 100 tags for non-residents, that could counteract some point creep. But people, they're ready to jump back in after the hard winter. So, that's my thoughts.

Devin, anything to add? If they don't increase the tags, I don't think you'll draw. Yeah, I think that would be hard because I do think people are more, all right, three years after the winter, I think I'm going to go. I would agree. There's already 20, 21 people that didn't draw. We're seeing right there, right? 21 people with four points that didn't. You know? So, anyway. Could be tough if they don't increase tags. All right, Wyatt, this is a quick, easy one for you, probably. And this is probably, we're sorry, this was maybe meant back in December when we were talking about Idaho General. But I guess it applies now because we're in the second drop. On an Idaho General party app, will they ever exceed the quota to give all party members a tag? Idaho and no. No. The only state that does that is Wyoming. I'm aware of it. Yeah, that I know of. Right? It's the only state. Yeah.

The only state. Okay. I would agree. I agree with that. All right. I think that's critical to know on these group applications. A lot of people are like, oh, I really want to go with my buddy. And it's true. You do want to go with your buddy. Even Utah, we know this. Non-residents get very few tags. And when you're dealing with the 10% rule. Yeah. And you've got to remember, they're rounding now in favor. If there's three tags, they're rounding in favor of the bonus point pool. And if you're in the random only, you're basically applied for a unit. You have no chance to draw as a group. So, it's just imperative that you know that. And then we go and pick a unit like Manti Elk or something like that where you do have multiple tags. You get down to the last tag, they're not going to give your party a tag.

I had a lot of guys in Arizona that last few days, they wanted to put them and their buddy in for the early rifles. Yeah. They had, you know. One tag. Two or three. And you're like, you literally have to be, if it's three tags, you've got to be, one's going to max, two random. You've got to be the first name out of 8,000 guys. I get a lot of guys just with the side of the general ask me questions like, hey, you know, I want to apply for my buddies in New Mexico because we're going to get three names in the hat, basically. Nine of them. Yeah. For three of us. So, yeah, we're going to get a lot more names in the hat. It doesn't work that way. No. You get a party application number. You get an application number. Yeah. And if you go in separately, you get two applications. You actually have better chances of one of you drawing.

You triple your odds if you all go in separately that one of you is going to draw. But you don't get to hunt together that way. That's right. So, anyway, yeah, I mean, we all want to hunt with friends. And then pick units and hunts that you can do that. And then there's some states that just don't make sense. All right. Another question here. This has to do with dull sheep outlook for Alaska for 2026. Sheep numbers, rebounding some, all that. Well, they are to some extent. We saw the Alaska Range open up this year to a draw, though, Wyatt. Was there three tags, I think, in the what was? Yeah, I think it was three. Three non-resident, three resident. So, I mean, statewide, I would say it's maybe we couldn't say it fully rebounding. But it's still tough. And I think, yeah, legal rams eight years plus are still tougher to come by most places statewide. Devin, wouldn't you say?

I mean, you talk to outfitters. You know, some parts of the state are a draw, of course. And others are over the counter. Some have been closed. But in general, it's been success has been lower than it was five, ten years ago. No question, right? I think it's going to take some more time. Yeah. Hard to kill a thin horn anymore, it feels like. Just killing, just harvesting one is a super success. Yeah, it is. Let alone being picky. Yeah. Like you guys used to be. That's probably the one thing you can't expect to be too picky in most areas of Alaska. A legal ram, eight years plus, full curl, eight plus. I know you were talking earlier about just the extreme cold temperatures. And everybody was slightly apprehensive, but it seems to be fine. Yeah, it was brutal up there for, felt like, better part of a month.

I don't watch Alaska weather on a daily basis, but I just remember it was minus teens or 20s for a long time in a lot of those towns up there. Not a lot of snow in some of them, but some of them did. In weird places like Juneau. But anyway, that was, you know, that's probably enough. I don't, if you've got a hunt booked up there this year, obviously, you know, most outfitters, most are taking fewer hunters. So that's the other thing they've done to counteract to improve the quality of their hunt, success for all their hunters, is they're not taking what they did five or ten years ago up there. They're simply not in the camp. So, all right. Got a couple other questions. Juan from New Mexico. How do you feel about the rise of thermal use in the West? First, which, you know, I mean. I think there's a lot of technology committees and wildlife boards that are curtailing that a lot.

It feels like as fast as it kind of came on, it kind of is being squashed in 80% of the states. And it was used way earlier than I think we realized. Yeah. We didn't know about it necessarily. Some of these states and Utah and about and others before they stopped. But then the committees came together and everybody, you know, with I think just in general, quality animals are tougher and tougher to come by. We're talking about sheep now. Let's talk about deer and elk and everything else that we're dealing with down here. It just feels like everything. It's a premium. It's just tough. Things are tough. And so we're hypersensitive and focused on tactics and hunting methods and things like that. Trail cameras and thermal and baiting. And just all of those things have been under microscope more as things have gotten tougher, especially for like me. Yeah.

And so Utah, I mean, you can use it to like scout in the summer and whatnot, but you can't use it during the season or whatsoever. Yeah. So and I and this, you know, I don't know. I don't know. Do you know definitively in New Mexico, Jason? I don't know. This guy's from New Mexico. So maybe he's talking about it more from his state. And if it's legal there, because I honestly don't know. Oh, yeah. It's legal down there. But I mean, it won't be long. Yeah. I'm sure they're having discussions. Yeah, exactly. So we base none of our hunting plans on on that. You know, it's not something we've done. We've got I've got a couple of coyote guns. I haven't even sighted in yet, but I've got I had FOMO and Jason. Why? Started killing dogs at night. So I'm going to try it this way. I also had FOMO on that. Yeah. John bought one, too. But I'm just waiting for the gun to come.

So I kind of feel like it has its place for for predator management. But in big game hunting, I mean, it doesn't have its place. It doesn't. It crosses. It does cross the line. But for but I mean, there are places. The fact that we're if it's legal in New Mexico or we're outside, Idaho, I think is talking about stuff. I mean, if it is, it's not not them and those people that use it. That's the law in that state. So but in general, I don't see it. I don't see it. It has been a rise. But as fast as it rose, I think it's got squashed out. And like I said, about 80 percent of the state manageable like you for scouting. Yeah, you can scout or even, you know, predators and things like that in some states. Then fine. Man, I think you should be able to kill a coyote any way possible to kill a coyote. Yeah, but get rid of us.

But, you know, to go out, that's not going to that's going to fall on deaf ears. It's not super popular to be able to do anything and everything. And of course, you know, anti hunters grab a hold of some of that because but but nevertheless, man, geez, coyotes, they're hard to kill. They can smile. They're smart. I mean, there's just a lot to killing a coyote, let alone a lot of them, let alone, you know, really helping out our big game herds and whatnot. So just out of curiosity on your opinions, how much smarter wolves than coyotes or what? You know, it was shocking when it's a tough just when when they opened up wolf hunting in Idaho for the first time and we went. It was shocking to see how quickly they adapted. Oh, it didn't take long. No, they got smart. Calling and all that, you know, stuff was fine. It was effective right out of the gate. Yeah. Now. No. Yeah.

It's more spot and stalk or incidental interactions. Boom. Kill one. And now and I and that's I'm talking about shooting them. Yeah. You can trap them and do a lot of things like that up there. That's a totally different discussion. And they should be able to do that. That's that's probably the most effective way to be really consistently having wolf harvest. Yeah. Snare and trap. So what do you think on the on the scale? They're a lot smarter or about the same or. I think they got to be smarter. I don't know. They're it was shocking. Coyotes are smart, but it feels like wolf is next level. Wolf is next level. Yeah. That's just. Don't you think, Jason? What do you think? It's hard to know. Yeah. Coyotes are pretty. You don't see coyotes in the in like run around town and stuff. They just they also. I mean, they do up in Montana.

I know everybody's going to say they'll come right into your backyard and kill a calf at night. Yeah, that's true. They'll do it. And they'll do it in the day probably, too. So there are certain situations you can mirror a coyote perfectly. But, man, I just feel like they're they're another level. Smart. Is it weird to say I feel like a wolf can reason like a human? No. I do feel like they can reason a little bit. I don't know. I think a coyote feels like they're still a dog. Yeah, they are, but they're so hard to kill. They're a smart dog. They are smart. But it feels like a wolf can think. They're smart, but it's different. They can smell. And when they hunt, they can't explain how they move so far apart. And they're doing coordinated hunts. Coyotes aren't doing that. Yes. No. They don't have that team. Some of them do. Some of them will kill deer in teams.

Wolves have hierarchies and a family. It's a unit. Yeah, it's just unique that way. And there's guys out there that know so much about coyotes. They'd blow your mind. They would tell you how smart a coyote is. And I don't know that. They are. Yeah, I just do think that that type of example Devin gave kind of illustrates a little bit more like humans would form a deer drive and drive deer out of trees. They're not talking or communicating, but they're moving the perfect way they need to move. They all know what they're doing. They're going into the wind and they're all. But coyotes have eyes. I mean. Wolves have everything you can say. They have. And they come in downwind every time. Like even night hunting them. Just. Geez, man. But anyway. Kind of something like interesting culturally in Europe, wolves are feared more than anything else. Yeah.

And like we grow up, you know, there's a monster going to get you, things like that. But theirs are wolves that are what kids are afraid of. You got the boy who cried wolf story. Yeah. The little red riding hood. They don't have mountain lions. They don't have rattlesnakes either. Rattlesnakes. They don't have snakes. Yeah. So it's just kind of interesting. I mean, you know, everybody knows I'm married to a European. So anyway. It was just interesting to hear that. They don't say, oh, the monsters are going to get you to kids. They say to scare kids. The big bad wolf story came from. Yeah. Yeah. Like, and kids are afraid of wolves. Anyway. Do they have brown bears in France? They do, but not, it's, you know, just in certain areas and stuff. But wolves, I mean, apparently recently, you know, as far as, you know, 80 years or whatever ago, they're afraid of wolves. Yeah. Interesting stuff.

All right. Question reader guy. All right. We're running out of them. But there is one that talks about, let's talk about the state of Mexico, mule deer hunting and how, but they specifically say high fence, but we can talk about just how, what's going down there. These are hard questions. Yeah. How, how it's affecting and or ruining a hunt. Nick wants to know. So, but I mean, man, you talk about something that's really changed fast, why in three to five years. When I say chant, accelerated, there's been things like high fence going down there a long time, but it feels like the acceleration of tactics have just gone crazy. Yeah. I would say the acceptance of it. But it's also surprising. But it's also accelerating. I don't think a lot of, I'll just say, I'll say a lot of outfitters that were Mexicans were using some of the tactics five or 10 years ago.

Now they are, everybody is, whether they're darting deer, moving deer, whether they're high fencing, raising them to shooter stage, four or five years old, plus letting them loose. I just think that's, that's all changed. And the acceptance of it because, and I think it goes back to, man, up here, when I say up here, lower 48, anywhere you hunt mule deer, they're just harder and harder to kill. And so people that want to kill a good deer, they're just wanting to go and do and kill a deer for the sake of killing them because they haven't done one for a long time. Or it's just too hard to do it up here. It's, I don't know, I don't like it. It's partly, Jason, I know, you know, we haven't been going down there. Part of the reason, not the only, but part of the reason, it's just you don't know what you're always, your circumstances are. But they'll live with that. All right.

So let's, you know, so with, so with all that, obviously there's the high fences going on. Sometimes they may even let them out of a fence or something for a short period of time. All of that. There's things like that happening. We can, we can imagine, you know, some of that happens. And that's legal. There's nothing illegal about that. And so I think like Wyatt, what we were talking about is the acceptance of it. Just surprised that the acceptance of the high fence. And then there's nothing like Mexico. The numbers of game, prolific, like freaking coos deer everywhere on good places, good ranches. In mountainous country, that's amazing. Mule deer, shocking the numbers of mule deer that that desert holds. Like it's unbelievable. And on the Arizona side, you would think it would be the same. For some reason, not quite.

You know, of course, here in America, we probably enjoy it a little too much and kill too many. I don't know. But they're killing a lot down there, you know, and whatnot. So I don't know. It's just, it's interesting. Mexico is an amazing place. It's definitely gotten away from, say, the classic Sonora 10 years ago. Yes. Kind of the enchantment of it. Could you remember 10 years ago? Like people. You mean a high rack and a coke? They didn't. I love it. But they did. But some people would say, I don't want to just high rack. Yeah. Now do you hear one person say, I mean, that's the least of the problems down there. Well, it's the most effective way. It is. It's the most effective legal way to hunt. It is. But it also is a different tactic. Road hunting from a high rack. But I mean, now, like that, that's chicken feed compared to other stuff that's going on down there. Yes.

Another change is even the feeding of the deer on ranches. That wasn't a thing. No. No. Back in the day, as much as it is now. It wasn't. But there's also such a, you can imagine being a Mexican rancher or whatever, you want, you take pride in having the biggest deer. And you go through a lot of drought periods. Even these deserts that are generally drought anyway, they have wet and dry years. And so when you're in a drought year and you're, you know, American clients want big deer and you don't have big deer, but the other ranch is feeding and does. And I think. Or the other ranch is pulling does and pulling your bucks. I think that leads us into why some of these other tactics of high fenced or darting releasing or everything goes in Mexico is why. Because if you're a, quote, normal, low fenced ranch and all your neighbors used to be that way and doing a certain thing.

And now you're the only one doing that. You don't have a prayer down there to consistently kill big deer. And. You don't have a chance to even compete with the guys. And the money goes a long ways down there. So it's like, it's like, man, I'm, I want to. I'm missing out. Yeah. I want my ranch to be profitable. I'm missing out on this. I better do more. I better add maybe a breeding protein captive, you know, raise and release or, you know. Yeah. Some high fence, some low fence. It's just it's man. It's changed so much. And then I think this new this new era. I don't know what you call it, but it's just all accepting times that we're in. We're more. Everybody's more accepting of the high fence because we got a band together as hunters. We can't be divided. All of these things. Right. And so, like, you do you. I do me. You know what I mean? Whatever.

And so if you like high fence, it's OK for you to go do that. And I shouldn't tell you you can't. And so, like I was saying, or we're all talking about just the acceptance of it. Sure was way more frowned upon 10, 15, 15 years ago. I mean, than it is now by. I mean, none of us at this table condone it. But but I mean, the general people you see going down there like. Well, it's all over. It's all over Instagram. And everybody's liking it. They don't even hide it anymore. Congrats. Monster, you know. And anyway, it's just kind of interesting. What do you think, Devin? I think if you're going down there or planning a trip or never been, you better know. You better ask a lot of questions. Yeah. How this is about what the ranch is. Tactics. Because, yeah, you could be shocked. If you're naive to it. If you're naive to that. Yeah.

You better ask a lot of questions before you get there, spend all the money. And then you're like, we're trying. I'm not really comfortable with this. I mean, it's best to our knowledge. We're working with guys that are doing it in a fair chase manner. Yeah. And even even though you do ask questions, sometimes we get stories from people that come back and tell stuff you realize. You know, they were misled or flat out different than what they were told when they go down there. Flat out different. And, you know, I guess that's just part of the, you got to keep up with the Joneses down there. And when I'm talking about that, outfitters. Everybody's got to show pictures. That's what we kill. Kill, kill. And I would say, don't be shocked about feeders and water. That's most everybody. Yeah. You know what I mean?

So just if you don't, if you're going to hunt Mexico, mule deer in Mexico at least. Feeders, water, and high racks are part of it. Yeah. That's part of it. It's okay. Just, I mean, I mean, it is what it is. Like that's, that is what it is. So very few ranches would not feed. I'm just saying, what I was saying is back in the day. And then you have one ranch that does feed, pulls a deer. What does that ranch have to do? It just compounds. Pulls your does. The does pull the bucks. They have amazing hunts. You have nothing. You don't want to go back. Rancher needs to figure something else out. Right. So it's just part of that. All right. Moving along. Do we have anything else? No, there's a couple others. I don't know. Some of these are from people that we've already answered one other question. They had another one. So I don't, I don't feel too bad.

There, there was, there was one we'll maybe end on. And, and, and, and that way we'll, we'll say we give this guy through this big bear a question. How to know when to pull the trigger on what tags? And that's a good question. It varies widely. Yeah. When, when do you, when do you shoot something on the unit or hunt you're on? And I'm not talking about breathing and exhale halfway and all that. I'm talking about size of animal. Interesting question. Cause guys will ask us and we'll be like, well, I haven't, I mean, what I eat tags on, like I eat them all. Right. So like, it's just, and some of us, some of us here. So like, don't let me make your decision for you. Cause I was telling Wyatt pass on that, you know, or whatever. And, and, uh, probably the number necessarily the right answer. Yeah. It comes down to the tag and what you, the person.

I mean, the expectations of that person, it's trophy in the eye of the holder. But it goes back to guys is you'll know it when you see it. You know, if you have to think too long about it, you probably shouldn't. Yeah. I think pull the trigger. What do you guys think about the saying? Well, don't pass on the first day. What you'd shoot on the last day. What do you think about that? I've seen that ruin guys hunts multiple times. So meaning what? Like guiding a guy has it in his mind. I'm not shooting the first two days period. And they pass something. You're like, look, just stay in the motel. I'm going to, cause you've been doing your work. Yeah, exactly. You've been out scout. It's like we go, I'm not going to waste your time. We're going to go to some of my best spots right off the bat before somebody else just. Or maybe a buck or bull or whatever that you already found. Exactly.

Well, really? Is that the best you can do? I've had that happen. I'm sure we all have. I've had that with a desert sheep. We had a ram found. The hunter got here. He had a whole week off vacation. He was a busy, I don't know, busy professional. We'll just leave it at that. Busy professional. This is his time to go out. We had a big ram found. Killed it. It was 161 or two desert in Utah, which that's a really great desert for Utah. You never passed one of those down. No. Killed it. And he was bummed. He actually haven't talked to the guy since. He was that upset that he shot the first night. He wanted the full experience. And you're like, be careful about wanting the full experience. On a wandering sheep in a rut or whatever else like that. Stuff in a unit that doesn't always hold a lot of sheep. I mean, and it's hard to convey all that. So, I helped him with National Park tours.

He went to Utah. I helped him with that. Planned it. But, I mean. You did your job too good. I jokingly say that. No. I do. I could think of multiple bucks that got away because of that. And then by day five, we kill something that was less than. Yeah. Yeah. And there's nothing worse than going back and trying to find something that he already basically has. Pass one or two. And it makes a guide rough. I could think of some bucks, man. No, I would shoot that buck if we could find him again. What? Let's go find him again. We just had him at 40 yards two days ago. No. I've told guys no. Yeah. No. I'm just. I'm sorry. I'm really ticked. But the way we started this out. I get. We all take dozens of calls every day here. And a lot of guys say, I got X number of points. What should I do? You have to ask so many more questions about that. Okay. What style of hunt do you want?

Are you going to go guided or self-guided? Because that answers some of the questions. But then. All right. What are your standards? What have you killed before in terms of mule deer, elk? Whatever you're asking me about. And that. Naturally. You're asking me. You want to do a little better than that, I'm assuming. Not always. No. You get to the bottom of it. And I want a 320 bull. That's different than where I should put in with 18 points in Wyoming elk. Because I'm going to go naturally. In my mind. Where do I get the most trophy bang for that? But other guys. If they. 320 bulls. There's a lot of great public land. Self-guided units. Don't crush them. There's so much more to it. So it is a deep question. But I mean, it's individually. We all have our own set of. Yeah. What you're going to hold out to. You want the biggest bull, Adam? Saddle up. You'll be like, okay. We're. Okay. Let's.

Let's drop. Expectations. You lost me at saddle. Okay. Now I take a 333 bull. Where could I do that and still be on. Well, I think for that question. I'll bet it comes up for most guys when they wait a long time. They have a really good tag. Yeah. That's the first thing they're like, man. Utah elk. You're thinking about it. Nevada elk tag. Yeah. Like when do I pull the trigger? And that's an individual. That's a really personal thing. And how many times do we talk about it? Some places you can keep holding out. You have a lot of long season. You know, maybe Nevada archery elk in one of the elite units. But. And I would say Arizona, but some years the ruts off like last year. It was rough. Brutal. Even in the best units. But then you go to Colorado, Jason. 25, 30 point guy right now. Your expectations are through the roof. They are. But what do you think you're going to hold out for?

Adam, I've waited two and a half decades. Yeah. I don't know how old you are, Jason. But I think I've had these points older than you are. I'm 50. No, you haven't. But, okay. I know your point. But, yes, we get those things. And so there's an inherent expectation of this. And if that is it. Jenna has 28 elk points in Colorado. Like, what are we going to. What are you going to squeeze out of that, Jason? 312. I don't know. Straight six or what? We'll see whichever she wants. We're going to evaluate what she's killed. We're going to evaluate the time she has. And the weapon types we can use. Type you have. And then we're going to look at the time I have. Yeah. So it's true. There is true, Devin. Good point. Because it does come away to an expectation. It shouldn't. You draw a random early rifle Utah tag with three points. The size expectation is the same as the guy that burned 29 to get it.

But, I mean, it does create weight. We've seen it all. We've guided all, probably, people in those situations. It comes with a year, too. I mean, 2019 Fonsigant tag versus a 2025 Fonsigant tag. You know, 2019, you've got 200-inch deer. Everywhere. Everywhere. Or 2025. Yeah. I mean, 180. Look at you, Wyatt. Look at your deer in 23 compared to the 24 and 25 on the Henrys. Yeah. I mean, not even close. It is. And if you drew a random tag, you've got to take it and do it. I like it. What do we call that, John? We call it hunting science? Yeah. Hunting science. Is that what we call it? Yeah, that's what we call it. Trying to figure out the right year, the right time, the right hunt. Yeah. The right season dates. Bronson, we've got some season dates that are going to ratchet here in a year or two, depending on the state. Yeah. 2027, 2028. Utah, 2027. Yeah, next year. And it makes a difference.

It's going to hurt the mid-rifle, but it's going to help the late muzzle on deer. It's going to help archery elk go deeper. Yeah. In 2027. With the mid-rifle on elk, it'll hurt. So, there's just some things that this hunting science comes into play, and we're trying to do the best. The equation. It goes back to, what would Wyatt do? W, W, W, D. You got lucky a few times. No, you're so calculated, Wyatt. I know he's so calculated. And I don't do what he would do, because I'm an idiot, and he has all the opportunity. I don't think there's a lot of luck. We might need to help him capitalize on that opportunity. Take us with you, Wyatt. Wyatt is the mad hunting scientist. He is. In fact, we should develop that. Can we come up with this mad hunting scientist look about Wyatt? Put the goggles back on. We already have it. It's on the back cover of one of these magazines.

Put the goggles back on, Wyatt. The next article he writes. We want to see the white trench coat. I think for me, the litmus test is, at the end of the hunt, are you okay going home empty-handed? Another good point. If you are not okay going home empty-handed, then Devin's rule of shoot any day what you would shoot on the last day, that should be you. But if you're okay going home empty-handed, then for me, I have to mentally talk to myself. I talk to myself all the time. And I say, but the first couple days, I'm passing stuff. And for me, I'm okay at the end if I passed it and I don't shoot anything, I'm okay with that mentally. But I do have to give myself the pep talk and say, this is my decision and that I'm happy going home empty-handed. The first two days, I'm not going to shoot something below 180 or whatever it is. Do that and know the expectations, like Wyatt brought up.

The precipitation that year for the deer and elk unit, if it's going to be brutally rough, that has to enter the equation. If it's off the charts or if you're in Colorado and they just got three feet of snow in the high country five days before your third season, your standards probably went up a little bit. Those types of things can factor in. But when you get hot bluebird third season and it didn't change after the second, you better just kind of factor that in if you want to kill a deer. You've got to start with that question. Do you want to kill a deer? That sounds stupid, but are you willing to not kill a deer? That makes sense. And for me, I love jerky. You know, so by the end. You love killing. I love the jerky. You love snuffing the life of something.

Let's end on a grizzly charge story. I don't know. Let's just, I don't know. I don't know. Who now? Well, I don't know. Just a friend. Marty gets scared. You're going to phone a friend. But since we've been talking about Wyoming a little bit and elk and things like that, there's a lot of grizzly in Wyoming. So this guy's up in Wyoming. He's got some interesting stories. Let's hear it. I just kind of want to hear it.

Hello. What are you doing?

Oh, I'm enjoying myself on this nice Wyoming afternoon. It's beautiful. Okay. So you're on the Epic Outdoors podcast. It's Travis Osmond, everybody. Bronson's here. How's it going? Got John. Hello, guys. Devin. Wyatt. Logan. Hey, you guys still wearing shorts up there this winter like we are in southern Utah? It is unbelievable. My wife keeps saying that I think I might be able to handle it up here now for a little longer because it is amazing how nice it is this year. For all those young husbands that took their new bride to Wyoming this winter for the first time, they got lucky. They did. She wants to go back. Oh, boy. Did they ever get lucky? She wants to go back. Yeah. I keep thinking, though, that it's going to get, you know, it's too good to be true. But yeah. Jason, your wife would know what it is up here. Oh, yeah. Yeah. She didn't like the cold. Yeah. Neither does my wife.

There's this happy medium. She hates the dry and hot down in Moapa, Vegas country. And hates the real extreme cold. So I got to keep her off the extremes on both sides. So we were talking earlier on this podcast. Just where would you want to be a resident of? Tell me the benefits of being a resident in Wyoming. Kind of everybody's consensus, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado. I mean, there's some benefits up there. And a lot more awesome hunting. Even the prairies where it feels like it's void of wildlife except for antelope have, you know, a lot of bird hunting and just a lot more opportunity. And so anyway, tell us your opinion on being a resident in Wyoming. Well, the problem is, is if I tell you that, then everybody's going to want to start moving. But they have to work. They have to live there. And they got to wake up each morning and look out across the sagebrush and think it's amazing.

They can't. This winter is going to be what it's like the next 10. So I can tell you after living in Utah for quite a while that Wyoming is a very target rich environment. Yeah. Yeah. We talked about that. Game everywhere. And even like, you know, you mentioned the deserts and the prairies and stuff. I mean, we have so much fun every spring. Just me and my girls driving around shooting prairie dogs. I mean, it is just. And then if we get bored of that, we'll stop calling a coyote and whack one or two of them. And smash some badgers. You guys got the prairie dogs up there. They can shoot their prairie dogs. I mean, it just depends on how many bullets I can cram in my bag. Literally. Literally. It is. It really is. And I'm so thankful my girls got to grow up doing that with me because they just. That's what I'm talking about in Nevada. Okay. Keep going. Nevada. Keep going. Well, Nevada.

Yeah. Just raising a family. Just. Right. Right. Out and about. So. So it took me. It took me 16 years or 15 years, if I remember right, to draw my limited bull tag in Utah. And I shot after hunting really hard for six days. I ended up shooting like a 327 bull. Yeah. In Utah. What unit were you in? It was. It was the Manti. Manti, but it was back when the Manti was really producing bulls. And I, I just, I thought I knew how to hunt, but you just, there's so much pressure and all that on the Utah deal because it's almost a once in a lifetime deal. Yeah. Yeah. So. We moved here and you know, like in, in Utah, you know, if you see a two point, you know, like coming down, driving home and back from work, it's like 10 or 11 inches across and just like kind of fork. Wow. Yeah. Well, I'm telling you that two points in Wyoming aren't like that. They're built different, bro.

They're built different, bro. They are built different. So you see a forking horn, you know, and up here and you're, you're looking at an 18 to 22 inch. That's because it's a call buck. It's four and a half, five years old. I'm just teasing. I'm just teasing. They got to withstand those winters. It's like Colorado. You see the does in Colorado? There's does there that are bigger than buck bodies in Nevada. There's does that would scare these Nevada boys, these Nevada bodies. Guys. Yes. I don't know that a Nevada buck can breed some of the Colorado. I don't think they could. I don't know if they want it. They are mean over there. They're big and mean. All right. Travis, back to you. Sorry. No, you're. But this is the conversations that I have with, with the Utah guys that are best good friends with. And it's, it's just so funny because it, the deer here are by and large, much bigger than

anything you're hunting in, in Utah. Body wise, for sure. The genetics are completely different. And the opportunity. So I just run down to Maverick every year with my kids and my wife. We all buy our deer tags. Rub it in. We buy our elk tags. And when I say an elk, I'm not talking. And you complain when they go up 50 cents. Well, of course I do. Because I'm living in Wyoming. Yeah. He's got to put up. He got heating bills all in and all. We've got oil wells. They should, they should be giving us oil money like Alaskans get. Gas should be a dollar 50 a gallon. Yeah.

It's coming guys. Only for residents though. The non-residents would have to wait two days before they get filled out. Pull your ID out. You get five gallon gas, Ken. Guys, Utah started that. I hate to tell you this, but Utah, I mean, every now and again, I'd come down and hunt spikes with my brothers just because that was our family thing to do. And now, if I remember right, I looked at a non-resident spike tag. What is it, Jason? A couple years ago. You got to be kidding me. Well, if I remember right, you guys won't let us hunt sheds till you're going to get done cleaning them up. Yeah. Five days. I think Wyoming and Idaho were first. If I remember right, I have to be held by the hand to walk in a wilderness area. Guys, that's America. No, it's not America. That is Wyoming's America. That is Wyoming. Wyoming is as an America as you can get. We believe in borders. We believe in borders.

It's security. It's true. We believe in people out. If you have a Utah plate, what I'm disgusted is you look at us as illegals. Illegal immigrants.

Do you live in Wyoming? No, Utah. Only if you're hunting. If you're fishing or taking photos, you're good. Oh, I could go to the wilderness and fish. Oh, yeah. Can you shoot a pine hen in the wilderness? I can't remember. If you're really upset about this and you need someone to talk to, my office, my shrink office. Let me refer you to the game and fish. I've got some game wardens. My shrink office hours start at 4 o'clock and they go to 6. And that's when all my Utah friends call me. Is that what you do? Is that what you do for a living? No. No. It's only the Utah hunters. Oh, okay. Well, I didn't know if you moonlighted on the side. Yeah. All right. Well, we want to hear a bear story. Yeah. Talk to it. Oh, you guys. Now you need to deter people from wanting to move to Wyoming. So tell us a true story. So that is one thing that I was not prepared for.

I mean, you read in your magazine all the time, you know, that they're, this is a grizzly bear area, but I don't think people realize what that means until they're in the middle of it. And then, so like now, now, now, so I got my professional guides license, I think 15 years ago here in Wyoming and started helping a good friend of mine, taking clients deer hunting and elk hunting in the wilderness and, and, and just on forest ground. And, and, and, um, I, I really learned a lot about guiding and, and, uh, that sort of thing and trying to keep people safe. But when you throw a 1500 pound, well, thousand pound to 1200 pound pissed off rock chuck in the equation, things get really hairy. And, uh, especially when horses are involved and you've got people from Pennsylvania that have never seen grizzly bears. So I've had two really close encounters. I've got friends.

Well, I actually had another friend that lost his life a few years ago. Um, you've probably all heard of the Mark Uptain story, but they, uh, they're just very unpredictable. And when you're hunting in grizzly country, you could just, you just can never let your guard down. Cause when you do, that's generally when you get in trouble, things get crazy, but we had, we had killed an elk. Um, we were hunting kind of around the park boundaries and we had killed a really nice bull, but it got really dark on us. Um, uh, that night. And I knew that there were going to be grizzlies on it because it's in that, in that area, they, you, you've probably got between 45 minutes and an hour before you're going to have grizzly bears coming in on you. Yeah. And so, yeah, I know. I mean, it, it, it just happens. It's just the way it goes. Training. And tab loves dog. Look it up. Yeah.

And, and so when, when, when the shot rings out, that's kind of when I start getting nerved up because I know that we've just got to get the meat off that carcass, get it loaded on the horses and there, and there's just no wasting time. So a lot of times we're sitting there taking pictures and the guy just wants a thousand pictures of every angle, you know? And I'm like, Hey, all right, that's enough. We got enough pictures. Yeah. And, uh, just hurry and quarter them, get them out. Well, that night, you know, we, we, we got him quartered. We got the rack on the horse and we got back to camp that night. I got thinking the only way we could get out into the area we wanted to hunt the next day was to ride right past that carcass. It's because there's a, in the area that we're hunting, it's, it's, there's a lot of swamp

ground and then the swamp comes right up to the forest and that trail runs right between the swamp and the, the, the steep, dark forest, a lot of deadfalls. So that's our, I mean, that was the only way if we wanted to head South out of camp, we had to ride within probably 20 yards of that carcass. Wow. And, uh, so we all got nerved up and we decided because of the grizzly bears in that area that we were going to take the, the outfitter came with us and then me with my hunter and another guide. Let's let the hunter lead out or bring up the rear. You find out really fast what you do in really scary situations because people in general have never been in a really quick life or death situation. And some, in this case, my hunter's legs gave out on him and he just, he hit the ground and couldn't walk. Almost like he forgot to walk. That's a problem. He forgot how to walk. He went limp. Yeah.

So his fight or flight was. It was. Drop dead and play dead. Up and play dead. In fact, well, let me, let me get to that. Cause you guys are going to get a kick out of this. So we're anyway, we're going along and we get to about, I don't know, 75 yards from where the kill was. And when I say this bear's head looked like the end of a 50 gallon drum, I'm not lying to you. I mean, that's in my mind, that's how it rings up. And it's just kind of like a sunburst type face to him. Just a big old boar. And he was pissed. I mean, he, he was sitting on that carcass. He had most of it kind of buried under the ground, but they were still a little bit on top and his claws were over the top of it. And he just started clicking and woofing and pissed off. And anyway, we, we didn't dare do anything at that point until we got him off the carcass. So we had this great idea.

We're just going to shoot into the tree next to him and scare him off. And his fighter flag comes on. Yeah. So, so my good friend, he carries this lever action 45 70 and he, or the other guide. And so he shot into that tree. See, that bear come up off that carcass and shredded that tree that he had just shot, snapped it. I mean, it was probably a five inch tree. He snapped it in half. Wow. Just saw a bark or something fly out of a corner of Zion. Thought that's right. Right. Right. And just sprung at it and, and, and just completely knocked that tree. And then he started just kind of woofing and, and kind of jumping up and down on that rib cage. And you could hear it. You could hear the bones in that rib cage of that out, just snapping as he was bouncing. Oh, wow. And so, I mean, we had a decision. Time for a plan B. Go the other direction. Yeah. Well, we only had one plan.

There was no plan B. I mean, it, we had all already kind of crapped our shorts and knew that this was going to get serious. So anyway, so we, we kind of really opened up on him, not, not shooting the bear. Cause you know, you don't, if we were to shoot a bear, we'd lose our license. We'd probably lose our families and our houses and stuff. And so anyway, we just started screaming, shooting in the air and, and that bear took off and kind of ran back up in the timber. And so we're like, okay, let's go. So we, we start moving and we're on, we're on foot right now. Cause you didn't want the horses to get spooked. Yeah. So we're just, we're just walking. No sooner had we gotten to probably, I don't know, 40 feet or 40 yards from that thing, that bear just comes tearing out of there. Just tearing at us. And remember, we're backed up to this swamp.

You step in that swamp, you're going to go up to your chest. And, and so we just, I mean, I remember I had a, I had a 12 gauge on my back and I had a pistol in my chest and man, we just started shooting the ground. What are the 12? And what did you load it with? Slugs or? I used buckshot. Four buck or double up? Double up. Double up buck. Okay. Three inch, three inch double up bucks. And, but the, the bear came out. It came out on a charge kind of really woofing. And then, and then we shot like 15 times in the air and in the ground and it turned around and my buddy. Yeah. So he's like, Travis, get up here. Cause I was the only one that had pepper spray. And the whole time he's yelling, don't, don't, don't, don't shoot the bear. Don't shoot the bear. So I get up there and he pushes me out in front of everybody. Like, like a good friend. The sacrificial lamb. Yeah. The sacrificial lamb.

And I'm, I'm young and I'm, I've got a little weight on me. I mean, I probably low man on the totem pole. I could have filled that bear up pretty easy. I would have thought. Here he comes again. This is the second charge. He's coming at us. And you can't tell if it's a bluff charge or a real charge. I mean, I, I couldn't. So, I mean, he is coming at me. He gets, he gets to about, I would guess 25 feet. And I let the bear spray go. And this is the first time that I'd ever deployed bear spray. Um, is it as useless as people make it? Well, might hit you worse than the bear though. Well, and, and thank heavens the wind wasn't blowing at me, but I mean, I remember watching that bear get fully engulfed in the, in the spray, but I thought this is it. I mean, this is the end. Cause he was on full tilt and I hit him in the face. And I remember kind of just flinching for impact.

And he turned so fast that he hit me and the other outfitter with rocks just cause he just, he spun so fast and he went running back to the carcass and he, he went running back to the carcass and he started just snapping twigs and again, bouncing on top of that elk carcass. Did he act like he's rubbing his face? Yeah. He was, he was rubbing it. He was rubbing his, his face and just, I mean, extremely agitated, extremely agitated. And he was sticking his head in the ground. And so we just started yelling. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you could tell he was very, he did not like what was happening. Yeah. Right. And, uh, so the outfitter just started on it. Go, go, go. Everybody go, go, go. And so we turned to go and I had, I had my hunter and the outfitter turned around cause somebody was grabbing his backpack and the other guy's hunter was laying on the ground and he's like, I can't walk.

I can't go. And so he was kind of grabs him by the back of his shirt. He's like, you're either walking out of here or I'm going to leave you for this bear. And he says, I don't know about you, but I'm leaving. And, uh, kind of started dragging the hunter until he kind of got his feet out underneath him. And anyway, just, we finally, we made it past that sucker and we started getting some distance between us. And, um, the, the, I just remember they were, they were, we had four guys from Pennsylvania and it just all of a sudden got really emotional between the four of them. I mean, it was, uh, it was a, it was a big deal. I mean, I was jacked. I mean, I was ready to take on Osama bin Laden at the moment. Um, you had to reload though. Probably you just emptied a bunch of rounds. I shot every bullet I had at them. I didn't, I did not have a single spray was literally your last.

Was pepper spray the last? Well, I'm just surprised somebody didn't shoot. No, pepper spray was not the last we shot. I'll bet we shot 16, 18 times into the ground. After that. Okay. After that. Yep. Okay.

Just, just trying to keep, keep that bear away from us, but man, it, it felt like he wanted to eat me. I'm not, it was, it was a real deal. And so this, this is the sad part. Um, that trail that that bear was on was as the crow flies, probably a mile and a half away from one of the big touristy parts of the park. And so we just felt it was a big deal. We needed to call the fish and wildlife service and let him know that this bear trying to kill us. And his answer was, well, you shouldn't be in there anyway. Of course. Yeah. And I was just disgusted. I was disgusted because how many, how many of these China people are, you know, pulling their little Subarus over, they read and walking in there and, and got kids with them. I mean, I was, I was just shocked that I think the one thing about it's obvious that bear kept returning to the carcass. It's obvious.

He just was just owning that carcass. You know, he wasn't going to, I'm not sure he's out looking for trouble. He was just, you had to go buy the carcass. He's on the carcass and he's just telling you, this is my carcass. And in his mind, you're trying to take his food from him. Absolutely. So, so what happens to the, the, the, the two kids from Utah that pack their little tent up in there and they have no idea that we had killed that elk before. Yes. That's what scares me to death. And that's where, that's where people are going to get themselves in trouble. You've got to bear protecting. Mama with cubs or whatever. Yes. Feeding the cubs. Yep. Yeah. Kind of wild. Hell yeah. I'm out. I'm out. I'm out. Wyoming. You got me. Yeah. So when I, when I see your, when I see your little thing on your tables that says Grizzly's present, I'm like, I just, I just don't even look at the area.

I just keep scrolling through it. Cause the last thing I'm going to do is take my kids in and have an experience like that. And that was only one of my two really close encounters that I've had. And it's, it, it's not fun. I mean, it ruins the, the, the rest of that day. I mean, my, the clients, they just, they didn't want to be a part of it. You know, when you get adrenaline rushes, it kind of wipes you out. Oh, it does. Well, and the whole day, you know, you probably got to go back. Right. The same way you came in. We had to, we did. Oh my God. Yeah. We did. So we, we had the whole day and then on the way home, it wasn't as bad of an experience. He was still there though. Because I didn't have any shells in either my 12 gauge nor my pistol, but he was still there. Absolutely. Just clacking and, and ground that, and the growl.

I mean, it's so low, but it, it, it feels like it shakes the forest and it's so ominous. What do they do at night? Do I mean, it just doesn't, I don't feel like there's a lot of. Night time attacks, but there's also people who are in the wall tents at night. So I'm just wondering, like, are you guys planning on being back to the camp before nightfall hits? So most of the time we're getting back within an hour of, of dark. If we're on elk and it starts getting dark and there's a chance we're going to kill them, we're, we're going to stay with them. Cause we really try hard to kill elk and get our guys their elk. And, but then you're nervous, like coming out, you're just kind of on, on edge a little bit. You could run into some, it's a feeling. It's, it's an intense feeling guys. I mean, it's until you've been there, I've got one really good friend. That's been a guide for a long time.

And I know you guys know who he is, but I'm not going to say his name, but he, he lives off that adrenaline. He loves, he loves the adrenaline. In fact, his, his thing is, we will see a grizzly bear in the meadow and I'll have to hold his pack horses while he goes and chases a grizzly bear on his horse. Yeah. But until it's fun until it doesn't, until the horse sees the grizzly bear, usually he starts bucking and twisting. It's, it's quite an experience, but it's a pretty wild. It's something else. Well, thanks for coming on the podcast with us. We sure appreciate it. Guys, happy to do it. Anyway, we've got some more stories we need to cover with you at some point. Absolutely. Call anytime and just make sure that people understand that grizzly bears are not big, fluffy, funny animals. They're. Oh, I don't think hunter. I think hunters know that. Yeah. I think it's the guy.

It surprises me. I think the people on Yellowstone that go there think they're kind of like a prop. Like a Disneyland prop. Guys, I'm not kidding you. Most, most of the hunters that I talked to, most of them all say, now you got your, your pepper spray. And he's like, yeah, but our grizzly bears, I mean, they're probably more scared of us than we are of them. I'm like, no, not in this area. Those gunshots, they mean food. They're, they're the dinner bell. Yeah. And you're right. It really is area specific and they need to be paying attention and, and be prepared for, for any disaster that could happen. They just got to be prepared. And I think, and Devin can echo this, a lot of our Wyoming discussion for, you know, there's so many different type of elk hunts there from high prairie, easy public land stuff to back country wilderness and grizzly stuff.

And, um, wilderness law aside, there's also non-wilderness stuff that is just as equally dangerous for grizzlies and outfitters in a lot of those situations because of the, their repetitive nature, live around them, camp around them, hunt around them. Uh, maybe they have a dog in camp, all those things. It's man, that's really worth a lot. Not just to, Hey, can I go kill an elk? It's to, yeah, kill an elk and bring you home too. And be safe. Absolutely. And make it an enjoyable experience. How many time you guys, how many, next time you're belly aching that I have to hold your hand in the wilderness. Be thankful that I'm holding your hand because I can imagine Jason Carter and Adam Bronson ending up as a pound of bear poop. We're not holding hands. We're not. No, I don't hold hands. No, I don't. Cuddling in a tent after an adrenaline rush.

But I'm just saying, you know, I'll, I'll gladly saddle your horse. I mean, I'll gladly cook you a little bacon for breakfast. Bacon grease. That's a good way to. That's a good way to call a bear in. We read it. We're rolling. How many, how, uh, how many bear encounters have you had roughly? I've had two really close where I didn't know if I was going to live through it. I've had two. That was one of them. You just told us. That was one of them. Yeah. But I mean, as far as seeing grizzly bears, um, I mean, it's nothing in certain areas to go down and see four or five, six a day. I have, I have a friend that counted 22 bears in one day sitting glassing. Jeez. You know, that's never happened to me, but you know, if you're seeing three, four or five bears a day, you're in good elk country and you better have your head on a swivel. Yeah. So I have a question.

Like at what point do you, do you shoot them? Like, like if you weren't out of bullets, would that have been a, like my point is why didn't you shoot them? Or did you spray him? Because rocks on you? Like it's close. It's a big, it's a big deal for a professional guide to have to shoot a bear. I've got a dear friend that actually had to kill one, one day with a client in the parking lot. They were saddling their horses to go hunting. Trailhead. Wow. At a trailhead and a big old sow grizzly just charged him. And he, I mean, thank heavens he had access to a quick rifle right there, but he killed her in the parking lot in the, at the trailhead. And it was, it has been a disaster for that, for him. Yeah. Trying to justify. Oh yeah. Why he had to do that. Because, you know, involuntary manslaughter against the human somewhere, you're fighting it the same way basically.

Well, well, and a lot of these, a lot of these park people and I hate to say it, but liberal judges, these bears have more rights than you and I do. Yeah. And so if I want to protect my guide license, if I want to protect the outfitter's reputation and all that, we, we don't kill bears, but, but it, but it happens. It, I was told when I first got my guide's license that if you don't have teeth marks in your butt, don't shoot the bear. They're on your butt. They're usually getting you when you're running and you're cooked, Chad. You are cooked. And I got plenty of butt back there. I mean, it wouldn't be very hard for bear to grab me. I'd say after he's dead, make sure there's some teeth marks in and around. Well, I know. Put DNA in there. Not just a stick. Better have bear DNA in your. Crazy. Buttocks. All right. Any other questions? No? We're good? We're somber around here. Yeah.

I'm good. I'm ready for lunch. You put a wet blanket on this, Gapfire. If you ever want to go on a grizzly tour, let me know. I'm happy. Oh, what would you charge us?

Be kind of cool. You might have to throw in some free subscriptions to the membership. Oh, that's not a problem. We know our problem. We know a guy. Thanks for all you guys do. You're awesome. Thanks, Travis. We'll be seeing Salt Lake. Thanks a lot. You guys. Bye-bye. On that note. We got to shout out a couple things here. Cash walked in. Cash, your face is probably numb. We just wanted you to know where we were. Cash has had some dental procedures done, but we're good to see you, Cash. Logan, you want to tell us what we got to give a shout out to? But Cash, you going to make it? Yeah. Wendy said, she's like, you might want to step in there. They said something about us. I was like, okay, I'll walk in. Got all your chompers still? If anyone wants to punch me in the face, today's the day. So you get one chance, one chance only. You look kind of funny. Is it on your left side?

It's both sides there and the bottom. I let Jeremy beat me up today. It was rough. Luckily, he's pretty gentle. Mel. Giant. All right. Logan? Okay. Unless you need anything else for me, I'm out. No, we're good. We just had to say hi to you. You're here. Logan. What do we got to shout out, Logan? One more thing about expo time. Yeah. Folks there near us? Kind of. Wanted to give a quick shout out to PhoneScope. Once you get done at the best booth at the expo, which is our booth, you can head on over to PhoneScope, who's right next to us, and check out all their products. One of the best Digiscopes on the market. They have awesome products and always coming out with new stuff and innovating. So we're excited to be next to them. Shout out to them. PhoneScope.com if you want to look at what they got. Okay. Sounds good. Guys, I think we're done. Is that two hours, Logan? Hour and a half.

We answered some questions. That was, that's right. Question reader guy. Good job. Over and out.

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