EP 5: Applying in Utah with Adam Bronson and Jason Carter

We're coming out of a crazy winter. Utah should be a great year. If there's only one tag, it goes on a random draw. It's more of a winter range migration hunt that'll come off that north. Anything to do with western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter here with the Epic Outdoors podcast. It's powered by Under Armour. I appreciate them and all their support with the Epic Outdoors crew and all that we've got going on. They're super supportive. Of course, we've had multiple different projects together and worked together in different capacities, including the Ridge Ripper TV show and other ventures. So anyway, super happy to have them on board. Today I've got Adam Bronson here. We're here in the office. We've been cranking over some different things. Had a lot going on here at Epic Outdoors. We just got back from the expo there in northern Utah. And it was just super, super busy. We had a booth up there and just met a lot of different members and cranked through a lot of different things.

Anyway, and then we've also, this last week, Adam and I were just super, super busy running through the March issue of the new Epic Outdoors magazine that's coming out. It's at the printer right now. Of course, we covered all species in Colorado. So the Montana deer and elk as well as? Moose, sheep, and goat in Idaho. That's right. So anyway, a lot of fun doing that. Learned a lot of things. Of course, we're coming out of a crazy winter. The weather's just been unbelievable. In regards to the weather, maybe Adam, can you tell us, you know, a little bit about what your feelings are as far as what you've heard from all of our different constituents across the West? I think if you look at southern Utah, most of southern Nevada, all of southern Nevada, northern Arizona, northern New Mexico, everybody's really optimistic about how much moisture has fallen this winter.

And those areas rarely, if ever, can have much significant winter loss on deer particularly. And so we have, I know I have high hopes for all those areas to really produce great deer and elk, great antler growth, great feed this year. When it comes to some of the more northern states, you know, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, they definitely have some areas of critical concern. And it seems like over the last three weeks in those states, as well as parts of Colorado and northern Utah, things moderate a little bit. We got a lot of warmer storms that came in, rained on top of the snow, which caused a lot of problems like flooding and things like that. But from a deer or antelope standpoint, maybe it took the edge off a little bit. But still, you know, we're not even to March yet. So still a lot of potential winter type weather ahead of us. And we're watching those.

Fortunately, in some of those states, Idaho, Wyoming, we don't have to apply for antelope and deer. Clear tail the end of May, early June. Colorado as well. We're not hearing as many red flag. Scary stories out of there as we were a month ago. Of course, we had, what, three or four weeks of just crushing brutal snowstorms and then some real cold weather. But it did lay off a little bit and end up getting warmer. And from what I'm hearing, you know, Gunnison's definitely going to be affected pretty significantly. But the rest of the state, overall, there might be small, isolated, you know, pockets of significant winter loss. But overall, things are going to be pretty fine across Colorado. And the plains, of course, hasn't been hardly touched at all, it seems like. That's right. And since we're here to talk about Utah today, I would probably just say Utah should be a great year.

There's going to be some areas in the northern part of the state that deer may take it on the chin a little bit too hard. A lot of that part of the state, however, is private land. And several CWMUs operate up in that end of the state. Not as many of our great limited entry deer units up there, maybe like Cache, Crawford, Mountain. But all of the central and southern parts of the state, which are really known for our public land deer and elk units, they should just be great. I don't know how they couldn't be. Yeah, I agree with you. And, you know, I know this weather kind of crushed good chunks of Idaho, southern Idaho on the west side, as well as good chunks in Oregon, Montana. And, of course, you know, you did a lot of research in Montana. And there's just a lot of significant winter out there.

But, you know, when they have tough winters up north, you know, here in southern Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, of course, Colorado, it's looking really good. Really good. It really is. Utah and Nevada are the two driest states in the country. And particularly southern Utah gets, I think, you know, carries a bulk of that dry part of the state. And when we're super wet, Nevada's super wet, you can't ask for much better because it's normally the other way around. We're usually begging for rain, begging for moisture. That's exactly right. So pretty excited to draw some tags or, you know, make the best use of some of these landowner tags and different things that we're going to be doing this year. So couldn't be better. Couldn't be better. Super excited for that. Well, as we dive into Utah, of course, that application's due March 2nd, this Thursday.

So we just kind of wanted to dive into that a little bit and kind of expound upon our magazine and maybe just some of our thoughts behind some of the recommendations that we made. And so anyway, as we start off, we'll start off maybe for sheep. Of course, a lot of you know Adam Bronson, you know, has been the president of Utah Phenons. And as well as, you know, one of the top sheep outfitters in the state. Also worked for the state of Utah and dealt with the sheep pretty heavily as far as from a biologist's point of view. So anyway, very well versed in the sheep and maybe we can kind of, you know, start us off on the units that are available to non-residents. Might even kick off into some of the different resident units as well, Adam. Yeah, really the only change from a non-resident perspective is they did carve out the Kaparowicz West this year, make it available for non-resident tag.

That unit's been part of the old Kaparowicz East where you could have the East, West, and Escalante. Now, now you can draw the East as well as the West and the San Rafael South and the Zion. All of those sheep units for the most part are doing well. San Rafael is doing okay, kind of stagnant. But Zion and the Kaparowicz right now doing very, very well. Great chance to see a 165 or even 170 caliber ram available in those units. Our deserts in general that are available to non-residents are doing really, really well. So, and, you know, coincidentally, those are, along with the Pine Valley unit, those are the best units for residents as well. Pine Valley, Zion, Kaparowicz West, Kaparowicz East are the best units for residents from a trophy standpoint. There's other units throughout the state where sheep are doing okay. You know, Henry Mountains, I know they have a high count there.

San Juan South is going to open up some new sheep country, never been hunted, give an extra tag down there. It's kind of interesting for residents, so there'll be a maximum point tag there. Those are a few of the highlights. I think another tag on Dirty Devil as well from one to two tags. That means another maximum point tag there. And those changes haven't actually been made yet, but you're just, because we're working so close with the biologists, we're kind of getting a feel for where they're going to offer two tags. And the significant part of this is if there's only one tag, it goes on a random draw. If there's two tags, one could go to a maximum point holder, so that makes a difference. And so a guy that applied maybe 30 days ago, you know, a lot of those biologists didn't know if they were going to offer two tags yet,

whereas we get really close to the deadline, they're also getting really close to finalizing the recommendations. That's exactly right. And with sheep, since they're not waiting for teeth data to come back like they are on elk and deer and making a firm permit recommendation that's not due until March, the sheep, they normally go off of surveys as well as last year's harvest. They don't really have anything new after they fly the unit. There's nothing new. They're not waiting for teeth data to come back. So I've been able to visit with some of the biologists just the last week and get a feel for that because I've got a lot of people calling and asking me about that. And like you said, if you've got 18 to 21 points, it can be the difference between sneaking in and stealing a max point tag and putting in for something where you only got one available.

You know, that Caparowicz East for non-residents includes the Escalante unit. Of course, that's where I drew. Yep. And lucky enough to have you and, of course, our Epic crew go out there and crush that place. I mean, well, it basically crushed us. But, you know, 25 miles backpack each way, it was one of the most, you know, that's some of the most brutal country there is in the western U.S. I mean, other than maybe parts of Idaho and Unit 27 might, you know, compare to it. But it's, you're out in the middle of the desert. And, of course, we went at the end of September, kind of at the first part of that season and had an awesome hunt. But, anyway, that is part of the Caparowicz East. The Caparowicz East, I know, is coming on really strong, has not near the, you know, difficulty of access, but still not quite as easy as the Caparowicz West.

You know, that Caparowicz West is a pretty easy hunt, huh? It is. It's got a lot of ATV, four-wheel drive access, day hike, where the east has some backpack country and it's somewhat remote, some logistical challenges even up off the lake, off Lake Powell. But that's pretty much the deserts. With Rocky Mountain, from a non-resident perspective, there was no changes in units offered. The biggest thing to probably keep pointing out is the Book Cliff South has continued to slip. We've hunted the last three years in a row. Just lower and lower sheep numbers, it seems like, every year. Sick and coughing sheep, which is just unfortunate. That comes and goes throughout sheep herds, unfortunately. Wasn't one of your good rams actually coughing as you shot it? I mean, it was sick. Yeah, that was actually on the nine-mile side,

which is cause for concern because there are lower numbers of sheep over there as well. This ram. Book Cliff seemed very, very good health. The ram we killed over there, starting to see a few lambs, which makes me think it's bottomed out, but numbers are way down. Nine-mile Gray Canyon, I'm hopeful they aren't just continuing further down because they're definitely down as well. So not as great of an outlook as, you know, it used to be. But still some big rams. Yeah, good rams, but, you know, three, four years ago, it was kind of the exact opposite. It's like that's how sheep can go. Sheep, when you have them, it's time to hunt them and take them. And you can't stockpile them and save a bunch of trophy rams because they'll be dying in the rocks at some point if you do that. Well, and it's been nice, too. I mean, not to get too sidetracked, but, you know,

I know we've had some transplants from Nevada coming over to the Kaprowitz. And, you know, of course we've seen, you know, some bigger rams coming up through the ranks. And, you know, I don't know. I know you've been involved in some of those projects as well. And it's probably been nice to kind of see the fruits of that labor. It is. Back in 1999, 2000, I started my master's graduate work on the Kaprowitz sheep right after the Grand Staircase National Monument was established in late 96. Anyway, so I had several research graduate students out there. I was inventorying water sources, and other people were doing telemetry work on the sheep. So they were brand new back then. And in 20 years, yeah, I mean, that seems like a long time. And they have been good prior to now, but they have really never been better than they are right now. And it's very, very rewarding to see.

A lot of unoccupied habitat's been filled in. And I just hope that, you know, the momentum that has built there will continue. Because as we all know, sheep sometimes just don't stay the same. You know, unlike, you know, mountain goats or something else, they seem to just grow and grow and you've got to kill them or transplant them or they don't die. Maybe in a severe winter, but our Utah mountain goats have been doing very, very well. I know you had a Willard tag a couple years ago in Ogden Willard Peak. And so I've personally never hunted goats in this state, but that was a fun trip. Oh, it's good. Yeah, that was a lot of fun. Of course, Willard's pretty, you know, pretty easy. I mean, there is a road to the top and then some major trails that you can access on motorbike legally with the Forest Service. So anyway, and that kind of, you know, cuts off probably eight hour hike plus

or 10 hours of, you know, each way. And anyway, and then you can get into there. I hunted a little bit late. And after, you know, like on that second season, I actually hunted the second season. And then even in October, because we were muzzled or elk hunting on the Southwest Desert. So anyway, you know, when you get that late, they've been pressured quite a bit. You've had the first season come and go. Then you've had the bulk of the second season hunters come and go. And those older billies will be right in that mid-range, which is on that particular unit. It's the most inaccessible, you know, they're kind of their safe zone. It took us a minute. We got it figured out and killed a good billy. But it definitely did. And it's not, even though you can access in that country, you're still in mountain goat country and it's still going to be physical for a guy.

But if guys do go right off the bat and hunt opening day, you know, on either season, you can generally, you know, get a guy that's maybe not quite as physically capable as maybe a normal goat hunt would require. And so I think that would be a good option. I did spend some time in that Lone Peak, Lone Peak Tempanogos unit with my buddy Clint years ago. And that's a pretty physical hunt. We really enjoyed it. And there was actually some big billies up in there. He ended up taking a nice billy. But, you know, it was interesting. Of course, we have one of the best units right here next to our place. I mean, the beaver unit, fairly accessible and some big billies coming off of it. Yeah, it's maybe not been as touted in the last couple of years for killing 52 to 3 inchers. But much like the Willard, the beaver unit, the goats have just continued to explode

and they've used them for transplant sources to the LaSalle Mountains where the Willard goats have come down to Mount Dutton, which to sidetrack just slightly, that Mount Dutton unit is open this year for the first time for residents to apply for mountain goats there. And some goats pioneered over from the beaver unit as early as 2002. I was actually the biologist there the year that Mount Dutton unit burned. And during the helicopter surveys during that burn, they found a couple of billies. That's crazy. 2002. It was just, we didn't know we had them. What are they doing there? Yeah, what are they doing? Well, they're standing in black burnt trees and they stuck out pretty good. Yeah. So you knew you had them. Cotton balls. That's right. So through some augmentation from the Willard and whatnot, we got an open hunt on Mount Dutton now. Should be a fun experience.

I know that I'm fond of that mountain and so it should be fun for some. Yeah, it'll be great. You've actually seen some of the goats in recent times when we were up there elk cutting course. You know, you drew an elk tag in there and I went on that with you and killed a really nice bull. But anyway, I know you've got some extensive experience in Dutton as well. So we'll get into some of the elk there here in a few minutes. But anyway, as we move along, of course, residents can have to choose one of the ones in a lifetime, sheep, goat, moose, buffalo, and then they can also choose a deer, elk, or antelope to apply for. And given us two limited entry species as well as, you know, we could all apply for that general, our general deer and then non-residents can apply for everything. And that's one thing I was going to point out on a lot of these non-resident odds.

They're always bleak for these once in a lifetime species. But when that change got implemented, what was it, eight years ago or so, I would dare say that probably the sheep and the bison were probably the most popular back then. But then everybody just simply added the moose and goats and some of those. And they're very, very tough. And we'll get to that in a minute on the antelope and the deer and the elk. Now that non-residents can apply for everything, it essentially just flooded the random drawing odds pool. I think part of the method, you know, the reasoning behind that a little bit was, of course, you know, non-residents, they have to purchase that hunting license, you know, and I think it was just more to help them, you know, maybe get a point for multiple species and kind of justify that expense and allow them to do that. They wanted to keep them.

They wanted to keep the applicants. Yeah, absolutely. And then, you know, and the residents fought pretty hard not to have that influx of ruining the drawing odds. Kind of odd that non-residents actually kind of have, in a way, you know, a little bit more opportunity than the residents do. Not per species, not per hunt, and that's not what I'm saying, but just being able to apply for a lot more species than you and I can. Eight or ten applications instead of two or three. Yeah, yeah. So, anyway, that brings us to our moose. I know, you know, like everywhere, I mean, our moose have seen better days. I've actually never hunted the moose. Have you ever gotten a tag or? Never have. Never. I'm still stuck on sheep. You've moved on down the ranks. You've killed a couple. One when you were young, a buffalo. Buffalo when I was 15 off the Henrys. Desert sheep and goats.

So, you're down to a rocky and, I guess, a moose. Yeah. You draw that rocky, Carter, I guess you'll be in for a moose tag. And I'll mock you for the rest of my life. You know, Jeff, John, my brother-in-law here in the office, he, of course, got lucky with just about, I think it was like six points he drew his rocky. So, I guess it's possible. Not probable, but possible. Anyway, yeah, I did draw that buffalo on the Henrys when I was 15. I was 15 years old. It was crazy. Of course, back then, the herd felt like it was somewhat small. 15, that put it, like, about 1990, 1989, 1990. So, long, long time ago. But, anyway, a lot of fun. Of course, those buffalo were free range and crazy wild and not like an easy drive up and shoot them like, you know, some people might think you would do like a, like a Hereford. You know what I mean? Yeah, they're not on the Henrys at all.

I know that from the book cliffs bison, even though they originated, some of them were brought from the Henrys, and then the others, you know, wandered off the Ute Reservation. They're not as spooky from everybody I'm talking to up there, biologists and things like that. On the book cliffs. Yeah, that wild horse bench unit is more of a winter range migration hunt. They'll come off that northwest end of the Ute Reservation down on the Green River and even cross across onto the Aviniquin unit. It can be a pretty cold, snowy. That's why you see the long season, August 1 to January 31. Yep. It still has high kill success. They will come off normally 175 to maybe as high as 300, they've said. So, you know, you're going to kill one, but you're going to probably work a lot harder. It's a little bit rougher country. But the regular book cliffs hunt, fairly moderate.

You're going to be hunting them on the areas where you'd be hunting elk or deer. But all of the bison hunts in Utah give a great experience for somebody of all abilities. You know, Antelope Island, if you just, if you can't get around, you're up in age or something like that, that's for somebody. Book cliffs and Henry Mountains, free-ranging, wild, you know, awesome hunts if you can draw them. Yeah, they sure are. And, you know, I actually talked to a guy at the expo. He had drawn that wild horse bench. And he said, you better eat your wheaties. It's pretty aggressive. And it took him to the second to the last day before he killed one. He just decided he was going to kill one come heck or high water. And he gave it all he had. So definitely, like you said, that's probably one of the, you know, it's one of the more challenging ones. And then, of course, those Henry's.

Your wife drew, you know, what was it, a cow tag on the lake, you know. And he ended up doing well. Of course, that lake can be extremely cold. The Henry's is brutal cold that time of year. But it turned out well. Yeah, it went fine. She'd always, when she started hunting, she wanted one of those. And finally drew one. And we had a good time down there. It was, you know, minus 10 or 15 degrees. It was brutally cold late December. But still gives you the same experience as killing a bull. You just, you know, you still got a bunch of meat to take home. Slightly smaller pack out, too, which is never totally a bad thing. Yep. And, you know, overall the same general experience. That kind of brings us to the elk, you know. Utah is, of course, known for giant bulls. At least it gained that reputation there early, mid-2000s. And it was hard to beat. That era was pretty hard to beat.

And, of course, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Nevada. I guess Wyoming as well. You know, some of our best states for hunting big, big bulls. But I know that's changed a little bit. We do have a lot of opportunities now as far as, you know, different seasons, split seasons, archery. But kind of unconventional that here in Utah we allow our rifle hunters to hunt pretty much early to mid-rut. Like right in the middle. And then on the rifle hunters and the archery hunts early. Kind of that August 19th, September 15th time frame. And so, anyway, and I know you've guided some of those hunts. But what are some of the challenges that you guys are seeing on the archery hunts? The first thing, you do get 28 days. And that's about as liberal as any other state. Maybe Wyoming or Colorado is on par with that. Idaho.

But most any other limited entry state like New Mexico and Arizona, you're dealing with a 10- to 14-day season. Nevada. Nevada. And so, what we, not all units are like this. But on some of the more higher end trophy potential units, we try to hunt the first five to seven days. Hunt a pre-scouted bull before they start moving to rut. Because almost inevitably these bulls, where they summer, they'll move to rut. And even though sometimes there's cows in the exact drainage they're summering, these bulls just don't stay and move in with the closest cows. It's just not what they've done. Not what they've done their whole life. So, we often will try to do that. Sometimes that's problematic if you're a non-resident needing to fly out once. And if you don't kill one to come back. But if you can't do that, definitely the last 10 days is where you're going to try to have to make something count.

It seems like year to year, the rut and all that will really vary a little bit. Sometimes once September hits, they're going really good. Other times you're wondering if they're ever going to get going before the end of the archery hunt. And sometimes it's tough. It's not great archery dates. I ate my archery elk hunt back even in the heyday. I wanted a 400-inch or nothing. And I had Southwest Desert and ended up passing what I thought was a 380 at about 20 yards with a bow. And I should have killed him. I'd kill him all day long nowadays. But anyway, back then, I don't know. I just guess I was a little overconfident. The units were doing great. And anyway, I ended up kicking my butt after that. But you're right. That archery hunt, you know, sometimes you'll hunt the wallows. They'll start wallowing that first part of the season.

Then after that, you're hoping for some bugling action, rutting action. But, you know, you're also dealing with, you know, general deer hunters that are out in the field and, you know, hunting the archery deer. And so there's more pressure than just the, you know, 30, 40 tags, 20 tags, whatever the unit may have. That's right. And then once the rifle or archery's over, the rifle starts. And you got nine days early rifle followed by, I think, 12 days it is with the muzzleloader. Yep. So like you alluded, it's pretty much backwards of every other state. We hunt elk in the rut in this state. Every day in September. It's the craziest thing. It's a little backwards management. But it does offer, you know, guys to have that premium experience. And multiple weapon types, of course. Then we'll come in later in the year and hunt them again.

But, you know, normally states will allow you to hunt archery in the rut and try to have a little bit less take and maintain some quality. Maybe give a few more tags because they're not as successful. Here in Utah, we'll give, you know, fewer rifle tags, you know, than you would archery if it was the same season dates. But allow those few guys, you know, kind of a premium experience. We're still maintaining 350 plus bulls in a lot of our units. Five to seven years ago, we all saw the quality really take a little bit of a slip, pretty much statewide. Even on what were labeled as the top units, you know, San Juan, Pavant, Beaver, Boulder, Monroe, Southwest Desert. All those were probably and probably still are to some extent the best top end units. But even they, those that are managed seven to eight year old bulls, they took a slight hit.

And I think where we are right now is those permitting increases happened. In some cases, they backed off a little bit. And we've kind of seems like we've settled where we're at right now. And I think we've kind of got, we're looking at what we're probably going to be dealing with unless there's a radical management plan shift of some kind. But it feels like we're pretty, we're doing pretty good. What you see is what you got. We're maintaining. Yeah, we're not losing ground or it's not getting better, but it's not getting worse from a quality standpoint either. There's always a few bulls that make it. I know we've got a, you know, there's a giant out Southwest Desert, you know, and there's a giant or two over on, you know, that share the boundaries of Beaver Dutton and some of that country.

And so, you know, there's, there's still going to be every year one of the, one or two or five of these big, big bulls that make it. I know San Juan's got a lot of rugged, crazy country that, you know, maybe less densities and where people don't normally hunt that might have a giant show up. But, but anyway, there are, we will have some of those, but, but anyway, like you said, there's just a lot of good, a lot of good bulls out there and, and different things. And of course, you know, our tag prices, we do sell some of those conservation tags and, and man, they're still bringing crazy prices. We're talking 50, 55,000 for like San Juan, Beaver, Boulder, some of this country, you know, yeah, on the premium hunts. So, you know, which obviously allows them to hunt all seasons until they kill a bull.

One thing to maybe add on to that is everybody, when you think of Utah, you think of rifle or muzzleloader rut hunts. That's what everybody thinks and everybody wants those. But as you study the odds in the magazine, you realize those are very, very tough to get. And point creeps happen every year because they're not drawing enough people off the top every year to make headway. If that reality is setting in with you, I would put our late season hunts in Utah on par with any other late season state tags because we still don't give very many late tags. Yeah. Compared to Arizona that has, you know, 250 to 500 and still maintains pretty good quality. I mean, even on like the Manti, we don't even give a hundred on the Manti, you know, where there's 10,000 elk. Yeah. Tons of elk. Our largest population in the state. So maybe consider that if you feel like you're no man's land.

I know November is not as glamorous time to hunt elk, but maybe it does have better drawing odds. Yeah. There's no question about that. And even some of the non-traditional areas of the Sal Mountain still producing some big, big bulls. And yet people don't think of it. People are thinking, you know, Pavant, Monroe, and maybe Southwest Desert and San Juan, some of the old traditionals. And yet we've seen some of these other units coming up through the ranks and maybe people don't think about them as much. But yeah, a lot of opportunity there.

Anyway, and then so that brings us to our deer. Of course, we've had crazy change with our deer in the last, I would say, 20 years. I mean, even if you want to go back as far as 30 years, of course, we used to hunt them, you know, with a muzzle or in the rut on general over the counter. I mean, crazy opportunities that have, you know, changed and shifted with the times. And as we get better as hunters and the equipment gets better and people get smarter about how they're hunting. And there also seems like spending a lot more time and money to do that because these opportunities are slipping by. And so when you do, you know, obtain one of these once in a lifetime or once every decade type opportunities, people are putting forth the effort to make the best of it. And so anyway, along with that comes, you know, some of our over-the-counter general hunts are now on a limited entry draw.

But we do, we are known for some of the biggest deer in the West. But I would say like compared to Colorado and Nevada and some of these other states, we don't have near the units that produce those. We have a couple of real star, you know, units. And then, you know, and then we kind of go back down into some, oh, just, you know, I would say maybe somewhat average. But we're still better than average, you know. But I would just say, you know, less than our star units, I guess, if that's how you say it. But we've both been on the Henry Mountains quite a bit. You've taken some of the biggest bucks over the course of the last decade. Just some absolute giants. Yeah, and that's probably the most well-known unit we got, no question. It's kind of like the Arizona Strip in Arizona. And Unit 44 in Colorado, the Henry's is kind of what we got the best.

Doesn't mean there's not a few great giant deer, actually, that come off some of the general or even other limited entry units. But per tag issued, that's definitely the best one. But the odds, drawing odds reflect that. But the archery and muzzleloader, in my opinion, no question are the better hunts down there. You get to go first. Hunt your pre-scouted bucks first with a bow or a muzzleloader to this day and age. And with the regulation change, now you can use scopes on muzzleloader, variable scopes. And so you just get a, I'll bet, half to two-thirds of the better deer get killed on those first two hunts. And then rifle hunters are looking at what's left. You know, archery hunters are good. And, of course, we go back to that, you know, a 28-day season. And, you know, when you run, what, 10 total tags, you've got nine residents, one non-resident. Same thing on the muzzle, nine and one.

And, you know, whether people hire somebody or whether they do it on their own, they take it very seriously. They know what they've got. They bring a bunch of help. And there's a lot of pressure on the top-end deer down there. There really is. It's hard to make 210 or 220 deer escape three seasons of hunters down there. But what I find, yeah, and what I find interesting, not to cut you off, but what I find interesting is, is, you know, some of our best deer killed this year were not on the Henrys. I mean, you get really close to a book non-typical and we can, you and I listed, what, five that we knew of last year, you know, just off the top of our head and across the entire west. And the Henrys was not listed in those five. No. It's crazy. Great for 210 to 225. Which are absolute giants. Absolute giants.

But for being the strip, as the strip is to Arizona, the Henrys is to Utah, as, you know, 44 might be to Colorado. You know, for being that, it was surprising that, you know, it wasn't listed in the top five bucks. I mean, you know, we killed a netbook 230 netbook non-typical out of Nevada in an area that's nowhere near the quality that the Henrys is. And I think, like you're saying, it's a testament to, A, how good the hunters are and they're hunting these deer down and they're taking them. You know, if they would, if, if, if somehow they could live and make it, you know, we'd go back to some of those deer you guided, what, seven, eight years ago. And kill a, you know, 240 some odd inch deer. You know, we had some of these other units, like the Poncegont and Oak Creek last year, produce a deer or two that were as good or slightly better than came off the Henrys.

Now, it was a little bit different. Like on Oak Creek, you'd had, had no years of landowner or conservation tags. And last year, there's eight, eight back in the mix in there. So you again had a bunch of, a bunch of hunters that probably had hired a bunch of help to do that. And a bunch of eyes starting to hit the ground there. And a somewhat of a burn that was just really matured up. And, and all of a sudden you've got some book, big, big bucks, including a net, a net book non-typical coming off the oaks. That's right. Exactly. So, you know, that's, the Henrys is still deer per deer going to produce more 190, 200 inch deer. There's not as many of them on the Oak Creek. The Oak Creek's got a lower deer density, much harder to hunt, thicker. Poncegont has, is doing really, really well though. So much like the Henrys, I highly favor the archery and muzzleloader hunt there.

I think archery is the best hunt down there. You get to hunt 28 days and you get to go first. And even on the muzzleloader hunt, to some extent, those deer can get a little bit tougher to find. It's a thicker unit. And by the rifle hunt, they're migrating south. And I just don't like, I like to hunt one deer that we found. I know you're the same way, Jason. We like to hunt a targeted deer versus, versus a migrating area they're showing into. Yeah. And we take luck. We'll take luck. But if we got some time, it sure is nice to pre-scout them. I know like the, you know, the muzzle on the Henrys, Ponce, Boatcliffs, whatever we're talking about, is generally that, you know, September 27th, October 5th. And they've been stripped of the velvet for a while. And they're starting to get smart and move a little bit. Anyway, one of my favorite, one of my favorite parts of Utah deer,

I don't know why I'm such a fan, but I guess our general units have just never been better. And now, you know, they've allocated some tags into a late muzzle starting November 1st this year. And you're starting to see the rut, and you'll get that rut activity. You know, and even though it's on a general unit, those, your limited entry deer points is what matters there, not the general deer points. It's November 1st to the 9th is a pretty dang good time to kill a deer. It seems like these deer, maybe they haven't been used to being hunted. It seems like right after those hunts and the pressure lets up, they start coming out of the woodwork and moving in with the does a little bit. With any kind of weather, it can really be good. Well, in a lot of these units, like you know, over to Pengwich, I mean, those deer will migrate, and they move.

And the Zion deer move, and they're moving to the winter range, and they come off of Pine Valley, and they come down to Ward Enterprise or some of these other places down by St. George and over to the Nevada border, and they're just, they're vulnerable. More vulnerable than where they're living up in the thick stuff. Yeah, absolutely. And you get to see some of these giants come out and whatnot anyway. Just to point out, yeah, on the general, not those specific hunts we were just talking about. Those are limited entry deer units and deer hunts that you apply for. But unique to any other state, Utah has the limited entry deer and the general deer, and you can apply for both and build points for both. They draw the limited entries first. So you're not going to shoot yourself in the foot by putting a general season hunt down.

But at the same time, don't apply for a general season hunt if you've got a few points, because you're going to draw. Look at the tables. Almost all can be drawn with zero to two points. Yeah. But having said that. Use them as an opportunity. Absolutely. Having said that, they're legitimate opportunities. I don't know that our general's ever been better. In our lifetime, probably not since we were 14 or 15, 16, when it was as good as it was. Right. Mid-80s. It's approaching that in some of these units. And I think we're more aware of it now because we knew what we didn't have for 20 years, and now we're seeing, since we've gone to unit by unit draw in Utah, we're seeing the benefits of that. More bucks in the population. You can pass deer. It's a great time to take kids out, too, because they're going to get a buck if you've got some time to hunt with a kid. Yeah.

And there's a few other factors, too. I think, you know, the use of trail cameras. I mean, we started to use, you know, went to the digital trail cameras, what, 06, 07, 08, right in there. And so prior to that, I mean, you know, we just didn't see. We're seeing so much more. We have a better pulse on what's going on. And so, you know, maybe there was some, you know, some good spots back in the day, and we just didn't know it because, you know, we weren't working as hard as we're working now. I mean, you know, the less the resource becomes available, the harder we all work. And we're just all really tuned in to what's out there and the changes we're seeing. I guess we can't forget about antelope. Well, I guess we can't. You know, they're not my favorite species in the world.

Anything that, you know, like runs alongside your truck and tries to beat you to wherever it is you're going, I don't know. It's hard for me. It only grows two points. Yeah. Yeah. They're forked horns. But, hey, speaking of that, you did kill a big one in Arizona. And, of course, we do hunt them. I've killed a real nice buck in Arizona as well years ago and spent some time in Wyoming, you know, taking my fair share of them and taking my kids and stuff. And we definitely do hunt them. It's just maybe not our favorite species, but we definitely put the hurt on them. View them as more of just an add-on opportunity hunt in Utah, even on the best trophy units like maybe San Rafael North or Southwest Desert, Bookcliff South, Cisco, those units. They did kill a really good one out on the Cisco.

And normally our best unit's been the San Rafael North, but we do have some good bucks around in different units. So you just got back from hunting barbary sheep in New Mexico. Yeah. You know, we got done, as you alluded earlier, went to the Expo. That crushed just for four or five days. We got back, finished up the March magazine, and really didn't have breathing room, but it was something I'd worked a year in advance to. So I bought a tack through a Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation banquet down there through a friend's local banquet that was a ranch selling a barbary sheep hunt down there. Anyway, I bought it. I wouldn't have known about it if he didn't tell me about it. So I bought it and went down there and had a great time, hunted a big ranch, 250-something thousand acres in Southeast New Mexico. Always wanted to hunt one of them.

It was a great, what, two-day trip down and back, and I still feel, you know, the effects of that one as I get older. I can't make those 12-hour cannonball runs all night long like we used to do. Oh, yesterday you were dragging in the office course. I was dragging two. We're back and better than ever, you know. But, you know, that kind of hammers out Utah. I guess maybe the only thing we didn't really cover is a change this year. If your kids turn 12 and 13 now, they can apply for all species in Utah. That's the biggest change that happened this year in Utah. Used to be 14 to apply for once-in-a-lifetime and limited-entry hunts. If you've got kids, they can do the general and limited-entry and once-in-a-lifetime. Yeah, not just general. They give them a slight license fee break. I think it's $25 for kids under 17 for non-residents. And so, you know, get them started a little bit earlier.

You know, we all know the point system, point creeps, you know, well ahead of them. But that's a noteworthy change. So get them in. Yep, no, I agree 100%. I know I've applied to all my kids. What are we going to hunt this year, Carter? You feeling lucky? I've got to keep a few things secretive, you know. But, yeah, we're definitely going to spend some time on the general here in Utah. I think one of the best programs going, even for a non-resident, is our dedicated hunter program where you get to hunt all the seasons until you kill a deer. Of course, you've got to do some work hours or at least pay for them and then, you know, sign up for the program, which isn't super cheap for non-residents. But in the big scheme of opportunities, it's my opinion that that's one of the best opportunities there is.

So non-residents can kill two deer and residents, two deer in three years, and then can hunt all the seasons until you get them. And especially for a guy that's somewhat close to Utah that can do a lot of pre-scouting and stuff, I think you can really capitalize on that. And that's kind of maybe one of my main goals this year. How about you? It is a good opportunity on the general season deer units, and you said it right. If you live within a day's drive or half day's drive of Utah and can come on more than just a one five- or seven-day hunt, it's something you might consider. It guarantees you a tag for three years on the general unit. You're locked into that unit. But if you've got mega time on a general unit, if you're going to overachieve, that's generally what you're going to have to do.

You're going to have to put more time in than just the normal person showing up, you know, shooting his gun the weekend before and going hunting. That's right, yep. So, again, just a reminder, the Utah deadline to apply is March 2nd. It'll be Thursday. And anyway, just make sure everybody gets into that. Speaking of deadlines, Wyoming, sheep, goat, moose, bison, deadline is tonight, midnight tonight, February 28th. So, anyway. Might add, if you're listening to this after the Utah deadline has passed, March 2nd, you can apply points only in Utah up until March 16th. But if you're only interested in doing points only, they give you an extra two weeks. So, if you miss it or, you know, forgot to do it or didn't start altogether, you've got a couple weeks after that to get points only. That's it from Bronson and I here at Epic Outdoors. Time to get back to the phones.

We just took about an hour break of putting in some applications and, of course, talking to everybody on the phones. Here at Epic Outdoors, you can reach us 435-263-0777 or epicoutdoors.com. You can see sample magazine on there. We publish a monthly magazine December through June and then bimonthly after that with nine total issues and we break down all the states. So, we also help people, visit on the phone every day, all day. Anyway, appreciate Under Armour again for sponsoring this podcast and helping us here at Epic Outdoors. We work heavily with them and they've got a lot of new innovative type things coming up out on the market in the near future and really look forward to showcasing some of those. So, anyway, for now, that's it. Good luck in the draws.