EP 58: Long Range Accuracy with Todd Sholly of Redrock Precision

So no matter where you travel in the world, it adjusts your 200 yard zeros. There's a hundred different things, you know, that go into making a long range shot. It's made me a more efficient hunter. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter here and Adam Bronson with the Epic Outdoors podcast. Uh, we're chilling right here at the Hunt Expo here in Northern Utah, Salt Lake City. So anyway, it's one of our favorite shows. It's giant and we appreciate them letting us have a booth. Of course we have to buy our way in. But anyway, we do have a 20 by 50 foot booth. It's booth number 2845. Uh, appreciate anybody that wants to come by and visit, come on by. So we are giving away a free rifle. And, uh, for those that joined today, as well as refer a guy. So if you're going to refer a guy, you'll get a name in the hat for that. We're going to give it away on Sunday. So anyway, um, Adam, you've had a full monster already. Almost. You guys get me out of bed too already coming over here.

So these, uh, this Hunt Expo opens at 10 a.m. every morning through Sunday. So 10 to 7. And, uh, so we run a few podcasts here. We're starting at 7 a.m. here. Of course we have a, the whole evening events and everything else. So it does get us out of bed a little early. So we are living on monster. Uh, but anyway, uh, just want to throw a little shout out to Under Armour. Appreciate them and their support for us. Uh, you know, they got a lot of good things. In fact, they made mention to me the other day that they're looking at their product line for 2020. So definitely not going away. Definitely going to be a leader in the industry. And so anyway, we really appreciate them and their support with Epic Outdoors and all that they do for us. And let's get started. All right. So right here we've got Todd Sholley. He's chilling right here in our booth with us. He's with Red Rock Precision.

Um, super good guys. Adam and I know Todd and Kurt. They run Red Rock Precision. We've known them for years and years and years and shot their rifles. Adam's had, I don't know, how many clients kill rams, bucks, bulls with their rifles? A lot, yeah. You know, and if, you know, I think when we first started, when you guys first started, we, uh, were pretty much hooked up with you right when you teamed up. And I don't know when that's been, seven, eight years, something like that. Yeah, seven, eight years ago. We were talking about that yesterday. We were watching Gus Arvello on all his stuff. Were you? Yeah. Yeah. Was he over at your booth? Well, we, we, we just broke that one out. We haven't used it for a while. And so just seeing all that, we reflected back. Yeah. It was a long time ago. Funny. You said something about Gus. Where's he from, Adam?

He's from Florida, but he's, uh, you know, originally he's descended from Spain. His family, Puerto Rico, the U.S., but he's, he's from Florida. Great guy. And, uh, past client of mine, hunted deer with him, killed a couple of big rams. And he was, he was pretty, he's, anybody that knows Gus, he's very eccentric, passionate about his hunting and his weapon. And, uh, when he, when he, when he was, he was, he was pretty, he was pretty, he's, he's very eccentric, passionate about his hunting and his weapon. And, uh, when he, when he got one of those in his hands, it was like love at first sight. I remember on, on one of our sheep hunts, he kind of customary, he'd bring a bottle of wine and I'm not a, I'm not a drinker, but he'd bring a bottle of wine on the hunts with us. And like, Hey, here's your, here's your wine. I'm, you know, thanks for having me come home with you.

You know, and I just put it in the trailer. Hey, Gus, give me some cash. Okay. Yeah. But anyway, one day we found a big ram just before dark one night, Rocky Mountain Bighorn. And he, we couldn't quite kill it. He was thinking about me. We're trying to make a plan with her, with his bow. There's way too many sheep. And we just thought we're just going to blow it. It was just him and I that night we found it. So we couldn't go stalk it and leave somebody to watch it. So we decided to watch him till dark, come back the next day. So we were pretty optimistic that next day that we were going to kill that ram. We got out there, the whole crew that daylight there, the ram was bedded there. Gus got lined up on him after 30 minutes. He stood up and he killed the ram on video. It was awesome. And got up to the ram and all that. And, you know, he, as customary for Gus, that finished his grand slam.

And he pulled that bottle of wine out of his pack. Out of his pack. And he pulled the turret off the top of his red ruck precision cap. Pulled it off and poured a little bottle of wine in the shot. And shot a little bottle of wine. And he put the scope cover, the neoprene cover off the scope. Put the bottle of wine in there. And just sat it there and chilled and drank his bottle of wine on the mountain. And so those scope turret caps, they can come in handy. Many uses. That's right. Shot. A mini shot glass. Well, it's pretty funny. I was laying in bed last night. And I was just scrolling Facebook for a minute. And Gus had friend requested me. On Facebook? Yeah, on Facebook. I did not expect him to be on Facebook. Yeah, he's on Facebook. His boy is on Instagram. But he's on Facebook. Oh, okay. Good, good guy. And, yeah, we killed a giant ram in Arizona with him, too.

And he was probably the first client that we had to buy one of your guns. But obviously not the last. But anyway, yeah. So we have used you guys' rifles for a long, long time. But maybe just, yeah. Kick it off, Todd, a little bit about how you, what you incurred. No one knew each other for a long, long time. Always built your own guns, probably. And that's kind of how it started. And you both had different careers. I think he was a decent mechanic. You were in the glass business. Yeah. And tell us what made you say, hey, let's do this. Try to make a go of making guns. Well, first off, Gus was the first guy that ever came to our gun wrench to pick up his gun. Oh, was he the first one? He was the first guy that ever did that. Oh, wow. And neither one of you were there, I don't think. I wasn't. But Gus, this is the honest truth. We zeroed him in at 200 yards. And he'll tell you the story.

We shot all the way out to 1,200 yards. And he hit the bullseye on every single target. No way. That's the honest truth. Well, I remember that gun. He wanted it all black. You know, even the stock was, it looked like almost unfinished. It looked like the woven carbon fiber stock. He didn't have any camo. It was just black. Yeah. You know, he's a Spanier, so he called it the El Matador, the killer. That's what he called his gun. Well, he wanted the gun black, but he wanted his bolt just shiny, shiny chrome. And if you look at the gun on the video, it's shiny. He's very particular. He's a doctor. And very, very particular about that. So speaking of that, like the customization, how far will you guys go as far as customizing rifles? Oh, we'll do whatever guys want. You know, and a lot of guys, they know exactly what they want. So we'll do whatever they want.

You know, as far as finish, bolt, color. Engraving. Yeah. Gold inlay. Yeah. Diamonds, blade in there. They'll pay for it. You'll pay for it. Yeah, we'll do what they want. So. Awesome. Well, tell us, just tell us. I know it's been, I don't know. How long has it been since we've had you on the podcast? We did one last year. Yeah, I'm just trying to think. Wasn't it about this time? Right. Like, it's been exactly. Yeah. About 364 days, probably. Well, tell us, you know, what you've done this last year with the company, what you guys' plans are. Of course, we've got the Epic Series rifle. But just tell us a little bit about it, and then maybe some of the components that are going into your rifle. Just give guys a little taste of what they get when they get a Red Rock. Well, we've changed up stocks a little bit. Guys want a little bit more slender look, so we've done that.

You know, some of our stocks before were a little wider, but we're using a wide variety of stocks, and so guys have a little bit more to choose from. Lots of new calibers out there. You've got the .30 Nosler and the .28 Nosler that are all caught on. So, like, guys are big on those things. Which is the one I got, a .30 Nosler. Yeah, a .30 Nosler. And so, yeah, a lot of new things as far as that goes. And we'll tailor things to whatever, you know, they want. Guy wants a .22 long rifle. You can do it. Put a turret on that sucker. We'll probably just go buy him one at Sportsman's or something, and I don't know. Don't admit that. It's all custom. This is all custom. Rim fires. No rim fires. Yeah, no rim fires. All right. So, but I know you have, and maybe more, but three main ones. If people don't know, if they're overwhelmed about, you know, all these, you know, long-range options,

you have three, maybe go through the three main options that you have for guns with the understanding that people can customize their scope. Yeah. Stock setup. All of that. Yeah, like I've got a Swarovski, but, you know, not necessarily you guys might, you know, you'd like a Night Force or whatever. Yeah. Well, we got our little lightweight sheep rifle, which we sell a lot of those, you know, guys just, I mean, it's a seven-pound. I think that's the one I got. It's a seven-pound gun, you know. And then we got our mountain rifle, which is what you have. I think that's what we got. Yeah. I got the mountain rifle. Yeah. Okay. So it's a little heavier, but a little more. Like a pound. Yeah, like a pound. I'm telling you, I think with the scope, well, because I chose that Swarovski scope, which was 22 ounces, I think I'm under, I know I'm under eight with the scope. Mounted, done. Right. Yeah.

You know. What is your sheep rifle? You put a, normally, unless they want something, isn't it, the four to 16? Four to 16. We're using the new SIG. They got a new one that we're using, too. The 6R? Mm-hmm. Oh, okay. Yeah. Or a Huskama, either one. Yeah. I think I used one of those on one of my stone sheep hunts. Did you use the sheep rifle? Yeah. Our 28 that Aaron and I had built wasn't quite done, and so these guys were nice enough to say, hey, take one of these, and it was freaking awesome. That's a pack that you don't even know it's on. We developed that rifle with Brendan Burns. It's the one that got that going. Yes. You know, he said, hey, build me a light, light gun. Is it under seven with that scope on the sheep rifle? It's right at seven. Right at seven. Okay. With the SIG scope. Yeah, with either one of those right there. I know you're going to tell us more about these rifles.

I just want to talk about the SIG Sauer real quick. What do you think of the scope? We like them. I mean, they're really, really high quality. They're great guys to work with. Geez, they're super good guys. Really? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's cranking out to 1,200, 1,500. Oh, yeah. It's got enough adjustment. Oh, yeah. There's two or three different scopes that we use of theirs that we're starting to use. Happy. Yeah. Happy all the way around. Yeah. Really nice stuff. And the range finder. The range finder's amazing. Unbelievable. You're the one that made me get that. I mean, you basically twisted my arm. Of course, once I saw it and used it, you didn't have to twist too hard. Well, they should be against the law. They're smart. I mean, those things. They're like computers in the field. Yeah. They are. It's like I was telling Kurt. You know, you've got hunters that are actually snipers. Yeah.

Yes. He's deering elk now. I mean, it's. So, tell us a little bit about that range finder, the 2,400. Yeah. Just tell us a little bit about it. Obviously, I can, but I want to hear it from you. Well, you know what? I mean, it's got all your angle compensation in it. And the neat thing about it is, is you can zero your gun in, let's say here in Utah at 5,500 feet. So, no matter where you travel in the world, it adjusts your 200 yard zero. So, you, you can show up in Africa and you don't got to re-zero everything. You just, you just go hunt. Senses your, your elevation, barometric pressure, all of those environmental factors. Yeah. And then, obviously, the angle compensation, which in mountain hunting is a must. And you can shoot, you can shoot MOA or you can shoot your yardage turret, whichever you want. Temperature. Humidity. Just adjust everything. And then it says dial to here.

Dial to here. Okay. So, I used it this last year. It was unbelievable. Yeah. That's exactly what happened. I shot my elk with your gun, which is my gun, I guess. Yeah. Paid for it. But anyway, you guys built it. Yeah. And, and I used that six hour 2400. It was unbelievable. I think my bull was 560 something yards or whatever. And I felt like it hit within. Whoa, dude. Yeah. I felt like it hit within an inch of where I was aiming. Yeah. Unbelievable. It's, it's kind of unfair. I mean, if you really think about it. I mean, yeah, we like to shoot stuff, but I think back, you know, 20, 30 years ago. Oh, I know. You know, I had the little. Just holding over, man. Just holding over and holding over. Well, and I thought, I think that's unfair to the game. Yeah. It is. We used to do some of that. And we do, even at 400 yards, I shot that 237 inch deer in Nevada. I shot him at 400.

And I mean, I don't want to tell the whole world, but I guess I'm going to. I'm telling the first few shots were not that pretty. Okay. And, and it was just a hold over. Yeah. Oh yeah. Walking it in. Of course. And you're alone. That's what you did back there. You're going to, you're going to coin that phrase, walking it in. Walking it in. Didn't have a wingman. Didn't have a spotter. I didn't have a spotter telling me where I was hitting. I just had to look at his kneecap. That kind of name. I finally saw that. And that's, and that's what happens. You know, I was shooting an old 300 Weatherby mag in a Remington. You know, I mean, just the old classic, you know. Three to nine. And I thought I was doing something. I thought that was a wazoo gun, caliber and everything else. But amazing what it's come to from 2003. You're definitely more ethical. Yeah.

You know, I mean, that's the good thing. And if people still understand their limits. I mean, the gun's capable of a lot. There's no question. And then if they understand their limitations as the shooter or the environmental conditions with wind or all the other factors, that all has to play in it. And hunters can choose to be ethical or not. With this stuff, I mean, do you clean your gun? Are you particular about this? Do you use a bipod on both the front and the back? I mean, there's a hundred different things, you know, that go into making a long range shot. And long range, let's call that, you know, 400 plus. Yeah. You know what I mean? 500, 600. Better freaking have something on the front and the back of your gun. 400 yards is a long ways. It is. Yeah. And it's 400 yards. But with the right conditions and if you make the right, you know, you just have the right gear.

You take the time. You pull it together. Yeah. You're not that guy that gets buck fever and totally misses, which we all do that. Oh, yeah. I'm not saying we don't and that it's not fun to get buck fever once in a while. But, you know, you probably shouldn't be shooting if you have buck fever at the moment, you know. For sure. Just chill out for a minute. And so, anyway, we can choose to be ethical or unethical. I don't think the guns are what define us as define our ethics. I think we define our ethics and what we're willing to do with that. And if I take it to 1,600 yards and I've never shot 16, but that buck's a 35 inch or getting away or something, then that's unethical. And I choose to either be ethical or not. Yeah. And so, anyway, I like the way things are now. Yeah. I do get nervous when I hear about crazy stuff that's coming down the pipe and as far as all that's concerned.

Technology. But as far as, yeah, have we, I don't know, I'm wounded a buck that got away. I can't think of one since I've used this, and I'm not saying it will never happen. Yeah. But, yeah, it's made me a more efficient hunter, killer. Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, my kids, I mean, Jason's kids, I mean, they use these guns. They're killing stuff. They don't even know what they don't know. I mean, my kids never shot something other than your gun. And so, he doesn't have to go through the walk it in years. Yeah, my kids have never walked it in. No. No. And I don't have them shoot long range. And I'd be disappointed if they did. Yeah. Like, to me, that's not even something we do anymore. And a lot of it's come because of the technology. Yeah. And the understanding of ballistics and your guns and, you know, what you guys do every day. You know what I mean? And the evolution of this whole process.

But, like, Adam and I have got kids, and, of course, they're killers. They just don't know what they don't know. If I had to take them back to shoot one of those old, quote, old guns that we used to have, it'd say, Dad, this is a piece of crap. Well, they would just be like, Dad, they would look at you with that blank, staring at their face like, you expect me to kill something with this? Why are you making me use that? You know, they just don't know what they don't know. That looks like a shovel handle, Dad. Yeah. I had a kid. I actually took Justin on his first deer hunt up there in Idaho. And, you know, the deer, I think, was 250 yards, but he was facing us. And there was a bunch of bucks. They're all clustered together. And I'm like, well, this is going to be good, you know, except for we need kind of the bigger buck of the group to step to the side or whatever.

But there was one buck facing us that didn't have any deer around him. And he got all settled in. And I said, okay, which one are you going to shoot? And he goes, the one facing us. You know, and I'm thinking, okay, that's kind of a small target. You know, and I said, are you dead steady? Dead steady. Of course, this kid, I've raised him from the time he was, you know, obviously in diapers. But once he even understood kill locations and where to shoot, he's, I know he's well-versed. I know he can make the shot. But he says, yeah, Dad, I'm ready. And I'm thinking, squeeze one off, you know. And he hammered that thing. It didn't go 10 yards. It didn't go 10 yards. Wow. And that's what Adam was saying with these kids is we can dial them in, get them set. And if you teach them, you go to the range and you teach them. Yeah. They're killers. They don't know what it's like to move one.

And I'm appreciative of that, you know. For sure. It is. So we talked about the two, the ultralight sheep rifle, I think, and then the Mountain Series. And then the next step is extreme range. Yeah, extreme range bag. So just a little bit bigger gun, a little longer barrel, you know, heavier gun, 9-pound gun. But it's still probably the gun that we sell the most of. Really? Yeah, it is. So weight, everybody, I always hear, wait, wait, wait. But people are actually choosing a little heavier gun. Well, talk to us about that. I mean, the tradeoffs, Todd, in your mind of going ultra lightweight. And then obviously there's benefits to that if you're going on a goat or a sheep backpack hunt versus having a heavier, a longer barrel, heavier gun when it comes to bedding and getting your shot off and all that. Well, anytime you've got a heavier gun, they're just easier to shoot.

They're more accurate just because, you know, they're heavy. You know, like we talked about last time, Chris Kyle, you know, that gun that he shoots is 23 pounds. Yeah, yeah. And the recoil doesn't affect them and all that, you know what I mean? Because it can't move the gun off of the plane. Just a fraction of an inch, you know, those types of things. Just a little heavier, wider. Everything about the gun's just, you know, bigger. The stock's a little. Yeah, just more solid. You know, that's what I shoot, you know. Yeah. And, but that's still the gun that we probably sell the most of. From that reason. Yeah, that and the mountain rifle. We sell a lot of mountain rifles. Well, yeah. If people, it's a natural, that gun, if you're three pounds or roughly heavier. Yeah. Yeah. That's two days of food when you're on a backpack hunt. Yeah.

And so people think of it that way when you're going on a strictly backpack hunt. Yeah. And it's hard to have, you know, a gun for every specific use, but there are guys out there that do have them. It seems like the more mature guy, the more experienced guy, he likes the mountain rifle or the sheep rifle. Yeah. And the less experience, and the extreme range mags, less money, but it doesn't mean it's not as good a rifle. I think it's because it's, you have some titanium components in some of your lightweight ones which are more expensive. Yeah. Titanium is a lot more. So your titanium action is a lot more than your steel action. Yeah. Wow. You know. And so you're not using the regular old 700 action that a lot of gun manufacturers are. Yeah. It's just, it's a full blown custom action. Yeah. It's made for us and just, I think it's the best action you can buy. I mean, they're awesome.

You guys have seen them, you know. They're pretty amazing. So will you do any caliber on any of the three, any of the three models? Yeah. Yeah, you can. So for example, like I'm going to do a brown bear hunt, you'd do a 338 Remington Ultramag or. Yeah. And we'd probably do that more in a heavier gun rather than that mountain rifle. Oh, I wouldn't want to shoot it in the long one. You don't want a lighter. Sheep hunter. The sheep hunter and a 338 Remington Ultramag. That thing's going to buck. 250 grain slug, Bronx. Yeah. So when are you going to hunt? Are you going to hunt brown bear? Yeah, in May. Are you really? Oh, yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. I take off. Bronson made me do it. I didn't. One of our. I had an outfitter call me the other day and I. One of our endorsed outfitters. I just said, well, I can't do it. But Jason's on the phone right now. Give it five minutes.

But I'll bet he's going to be calling you back. Hung up. Soon he's off the phone. I said, Jason. And he did. He called. He got the few details. Well, I tried my wife. She didn't answer the phone. So then I called the outfitter. He did. I was there. Yes. So I did due diligence, right? Yeah. I was there. Jana, I watched it. And then I called the outfitter and booked it. And then my wife called back and broke the knees. And luckily I've got the most wonderful wife in the world and understands that. But it's one of those things, you know, they don't come around very often. And it literally in five to seven minutes it would have been gone. And this May, it was a late last minute deal. He's going down his list of his short list. And fortunately we were on that. And, you know, whether we took it ourselves or an Epic Outdoors client, somebody was going to get a great deal.

Well, and it was also one of those deals where, you know, I haven't been with this guy and he kind of wants, you know, I need to go and just be with him a little bit and stuff. And I've never killed a brown bear. Adam's never killed one. And we want to, there's certain things you want to do. Yeah. For the experience of it. And we just want to kill one of those giants. It's not that I'm addicted to bears. Right, right. But it is going to happen at some point in my life. It's on your list at some point. Yeah. And so anyway, it'll be clear off the end of the peninsula. I mean, we're a hundred miles from the Aleutian Islands. Like we're clear out there. Wow. So. That's going to be exciting. Yeah. You almost need to brush up on your Russia. You're Russian. You're getting close. I am not very far from Russia at all. Really? No, yeah. Wow. Yeah, you're not. And so, well, you probably are.

You are. There's a lot of blue water on the map. But anyway, it's, yeah, we'll be staying in a little cabin. And it's going to be, you know, it's going to be one of those hurry up and wait and learn patience and, you know, glass for 14 days or whatever. That's going to be neat. You know, they'll be mating a little bit, hopefully, and we'll get a big old boar, you know, stuck with a sow there. So when it comes to the three rifles, but obviously the variations throughout, you know, whether it be scope combinations and all that. And I know we've talked with you about caliber selection and things like that. But if somebody, I guess, doesn't know or doesn't have their favorite, doesn't come to you and say, this is what I want, what do you, how do you approach that and help them select a caliber? Is it usually like, hey, what is your, what do you intend to use your gun for?

And how do you start that? That's the first thing I ask them, you know, what do you do? Where do you go? What do you do? What do you see five or 10 years from now doing? And so what we did this year is we got some rifles in our, in our booth that we've just kind of mixed and matched, matched a bunch of different things like a carbon barrel with titanium action, just a whole bunch of different options. So we got a lot of different things that guys can look at. Just so people can see visually. Yeah. I like that. Exactly. And so the sheep hunting rifle, I'm seeing these three models in my mind. And then you mentioned carbon with titanium. Is that sheep rifle a carbon with titanium? No, our, we do our mountain rifle with the titanium and carbon. And then we've got some others that we've, you know, done a little bit differently.

So even though it's carbon titanium, not necessarily your lightest model? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. But guys really, guys really seem to like those carbon barrels. They like the way they look. And I'll tell you, they shoot. Is it just aesthetics mainly? Or do they shoot? Do they, is it the heat? Do you think they shoot better? I do. You think the heating and heat transfer, dissipation, is that part of it? Well, obviously they say that, you know, it still is still, barrel inside there. Inside the wrap. Yeah. But just. Vibration? Or is it something about the muzzle vibration that carbon absorbs it differently? If you see the regular steel barrel and you see it in slow motion as the bullets going through it, that barrel almost has, yeah, it just almost has a Ripley effect to it. Geez, that makes me want to go throw mine in the garbage. Well, no, don't do that.

Well, like I, and you guys tried to get me to do a carbon barrel, but I was like, I actually love my rifle. It's unbelievable. The accuracy is unbelievable. So I can't imagine. And I personally don't like the looks of a big old fat, you know. To me, I don't, it doesn't aesthetically appeal to me either as much as just a slender barrel. Yeah, I just like a barrel. Yeah. But everybody's different, I guess. It didn't mean to, it didn't mean, you know, I didn't like them either to look at them. But you're a fan. The more you shoot them. But I shoot, I shoot them every day. And it's like, I can take a 33, or a 30 nozzler, I can take it to the range in carbon, and I know that I'm going to get it low. What? Yeah. Really? Yeah. So I had guys tell me before that the carbon insulates the heat in there, like it's an insulator. Is that not the case? I don't think so. Okay. I really don't. All right.

Yeah. Well, and the other thing about the, unless you're long range and prairie dogs with your gun, and you're just firing like crazy. What about javelina? Well, if you don't know where you have an unlimited bag for those, everywhere it's got, Arizona you can shoot one. Mexico. Okay. But you know what I mean, as big game hunters, we don't heat barrels up. And if you do, you should probably just stop shooting. You're walking them in? You're walking them in. Pull the plug. You're going to point that phrase. You better trade me. Pull the plug on it. But you know what I mean? And so the heat in your barrel is going to happen more at the range than it ever is going to happen to you. Yeah. And a lot of guys really abuse their guns at the range. I mean, you would see. They light them up. Oh, they do. They'll take those .28 nozzlers and they'll shoot 15, 20 rounds. Come on. Oh, yeah.

Just pound them. Yeah. Just one after another. We've had guys send rifles back and you can just tell what they've done to them. Yeah. You've got to be careful with that. They send that in about 14 empty boxes and say, fill them. Fill them and give me a new barrel. Yeah. Just, you know, these new rounds or these new calibers are just, you know, they're hot rods, but they work. Well, I will tell you what works and that's my .30 nozzler. Yeah. Yeah. 28 nozzler. I bought one of your first generations and I can't upgrade it. You've tempted me a couple of times. You guys came out with the .28. Aaron and I, my brother, got a .28. And so our ammo is different. I've got the old 7mm, quote, old. Yeah. You know? And he's got the .28. We love them, but they're different boxes. So when we hunt together, we don't have to worry about which box was that. Yeah. That makes sense.

You've tempted me to upgrade, but I can't get rid of that. I call it the first generation. It might be your second. Yeah. But it's one of the first year or two that you guys are in business. And it's. Killer. No. It's killer. And you have probably made some improvements, but it doesn't matter. You know that 7 mag that you have? You've killed a bunch of stuff with that. And I don't know why more guys just don't build those. The smart guys do. Yeah. I love it. The older guys, because they know if they go on a trip somewhere and their ammo don't make it or something, you can always find 7 mag ammo. Yeah. It's everywhere. Yeah. And I love it. Jason's with me. We took that. Our kid's in New Mexico. Oh, yeah. My kid was 9. He got out and there's this coyote. You don't see dumb coyotes where I put it. He just stood out there like 275 yards. And he got out with that and piled up.

The first thing he ever killed in his 9 was with that 7. And kids, you know, I don't know. When I was a 9-year-old, I mean, I shot a .270 when I was about 13 or 14 when I started hunting. And 7s were belted a little bit more kick. But these new guns with the break, they just don't. There's no recoil to it. And there's not that much more at the 30 and all that. But anyway, so you start out with guys, ask them their practical use and where you're going to use it. And then where do you go from there if you're trying to steer them to one of your either calibers or one of your rifles? How do you then proceed down the process of picking the gun? As far as, you know, when a guy calls on the phone or, you know, it's kind of hard to, you know, walk him through everything. Can't walk him to your show. Yeah, exactly. So, but I just, you know, I'll ask him what he's doing, where are you going?

And then I'll just give him my thoughts and my opinions. And then I'll let him choose, you know, what he wants. So if somebody's that, if they're that open and you give your opinion, where's the, what are the two or three? Is it like a, in this day and age, is it a 7mm, 28, 30 Nosler? Are those probably the three that you, that come up the most, if you're going to recommend for the calibers? Well, your 6.5 284 comes up a lot. With the lightweight one, right? Yeah. Popular round right now. It's a popular round. Deer killing machine. Fun little low recoil rifle. And they, those things are so accurate. But that, that round's been around forever. That was a bench rest round and guys shot that forever and still do. Yeah. Wow. But we sell a lot of those. Do you? Yeah. Because we got guys, you know, if he says, hey, I'm just hunting deer and antelope, I'll always steer into it.

Or even a sheep, I mean. Yeah, or even a sheep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you don't even have to put brakes on those in our rally. No. If you don't want them. If you don't want to make them louder, you know. So do you have one stock option now? Like you said, you have made some adjustments, got a slimmer stock. I mean, let's say I come in, I call you up, I'm like, hey, I want a round. I want a 30 Ultramack, whatever, 300. We've got three or four stocks we use. So it just. Whatever feels good in your hand. Whatever feels good in your hand. So we give guys lots of options. Well, let's talk about something fun. Let's talk about the Epic Series rifle. There you go. Something that's. Yeah. Let's say a guy orders an Epic Series. He can obviously choose the caliber. We've got the our little logo on the plate and then a serial number. And it's 50, 50 rifles. They get to put on zero. Right.

50, one of 50, two of 50. Going to do them in the Ridge Reaper pattern. Right. Ridge Reaper camel pattern. What else? Tell us about that rifle. Tell us about the stock. The titanium action. We got two stocks that we'll use on that that they can choose from. OK. And you guys know Greg Wells. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He called me just a couple of days ago and he took his sons out and shot his rifles and said, Todd, they're freaking awesome. Good. Yeah. He was totally tickled. Got like three of them, I think, for, you know, around Christmas. He actually bought four. Three for his sons and then he bought one for another guy. I wish I knew him and was good friends with him. He's a pretty generous guy. But he said, Todd, I can't believe how he's seen. You mean you wish you were his son. Yeah. There you go. So those Vegas guys are pretty intense guys. And, of course, they're good guys.

I've known them for quite some time. And, anyway, when they made that order, it was pretty impressive. And so, yeah, they're ecstatic. Anything I've heard, just nothing but praise. So we can do them in a carb. We can do them with a carbon barrel. And one of the ones that we did for him was a carbon barrel. And then we can do them in steel barrels, just whatever you want. Okay. The floor plate and the serial number of Epic. I don't know if it's EO. I can't remember. But it started at 1. It started at 0-0-0-1. Started with mine. Yeah. So, anyway, I'm not selling that sucker. Yeah. Well, good. I could always go get a new gun. No, you can't. Go 0-0-0-0-1 and I'd be it before you. Yeah, for sure. We've got it in contract. You just didn't sign it. I don't know. Well, yeah. So we are, just for all the listeners out there, we are, you know, starting off.

We were basically going to start with January 1st. Kicked it off a little bit early because there was kind of some high demand with Greg and a few guys that had heard that we were doing it. And so, anyway, we've got an Epic Series rifle out there. Limited edition. First come, first serve as far as the number. Yep. And it's Epic. We won't be doing that one very often. No. I mean, it's rare to stamp our name on something. And, you know, as you know, in this industry, this industry is tight and it's small. And everybody knows each other. When you stamp your name on something, you know, it better be up to your standards of your name. And Adam and I hold Epic and Hyrie Garden and won't do anything to tarnish our name. Yeah. And we stamped our name on your product. And so we want you to know how, you know, appreciative we are with that partnership of you guys and your support for us.

And then, and obviously, it's not like you're giving us any kickback or anything. I mean, this is just something we want our name on. Exactly. We choose to have our name. We paid for our guns, our personal guns and our second guns. It's not like, you know, hey, here's a free gun and tell the world good things about our rifles. No, it doesn't happen that way. It doesn't happen that way. And we don't expect anything for free. No. No. You know, we all work for a living. And so anyway, but we did stamp our name, our logo, the, the, everything on that, on your rifle. We realize that and we understand that. And you guys know how we do our rifles. We do. So every rifle that we're going to build on the Epic Series is just going to be like our other ones. We're going to take it out individually. We're going to work up a load specifically for that rifle. And that's how we get what we get.

A lot of people say that we, you know, other people have said, you guys can't continue to do that. We will continue to do that. Well, that's the little bit extra added touch that makes it a real custom one-on-one rifle for you. Exactly. And not a cookie cutter long range gun that, you know, hey, they all shoot pretty, pretty good. If we just kind of save a little bit of time and work up a general load for all the sevens and all the 28s and all the 30s and say, all right, they'll match close. It's not that way. We've been there through your course. We know how you do it. We've, we've brought friends of ours up there. You know, Adam Kearney, when he shot his, he shot better than us that day. Well, he only shot, he only shot four times and he didn't want to shoot a fifth time. Because he knew, he knew his luck was going to happen. He's not capable of shooting that good. No, he's not.

But, we all know that. It was a fluke. But we had to listen to him the rest of the day. Oh, boy. I'm still hearing from him. Yeah. He'll leave messages. You know, anyway. I've watched that video again. That's right. But if you come to our booth right now, we've got, we've got targets of all the guns we've done in the last couple of months. And they're there for people to see. That speaks volumes. You don't see anybody else here has that. Yeah. Nobody. Yeah. That's great. That's as good a testimony as you got. I haven't gone around your company. I haven't even made the rounds in this show. It's so big. I don't, you know, we're just. Yeah. Nose to the grindstone. But you would know. Yeah. You would know. So, let's talk about, let's talk about, all right, building a gun. They're awesome. They shoot good. You just talked about paper. Now a guy comes to pick it up. Yeah. How does that work?

So, any rifle that we build, we invite every single customer, whether it's the Epic gun or other rifles or whatever, they're more than welcome to come to Utah. And you don't charge them for that. We don't charge them for that. For that day at the field. Come and pick it up and shoot it with us. You'll teach them how to shoot. We'll teach them how to shoot it. How to bet it when they're getting the rest. All the things that you go through. Exactly. Yeah. So, we do that. And you've got a long, you've got targets set up. It's very comfortable. You've got a shooting house there. If it's raining, it doesn't matter when they come. Well, we do just what we did with you guys when you came and Adam came. That's what we do. And so, you guys build the rounds as well. Like, I can order six boxes. Just give us your serial number of your rifle. We'll load it up. You have it. Really?

You save it by serial number of the computer or whatever. Yeah. Got that load data. Yep. Okay. Yep. Okay. I'm going to go to the range, burn out a barrel, and order up some more rounds. So, anyway, well, that's awesome. Anything else you can tell us about that as far as, you know? Oh, I think we've covered about everything. Let's say I'm walking along the aisle. I see a gun in your booth, and I want that gun. Can I walk away with it today? Nope. Not today. How about 15K? Drop 15K. You give it to me? Still can't do it. I want to walk out the door with a rifle today. Are you going to sell me one? I'll work something out. All right. So, how long is, let's say, a guy needs one by, you know, September, really August-ish, is archery hunting anyway. But let's say August-ish. When does he need to order one? Today? Okay. Everybody that's coming right now, we're telling them six to seven months.

Okay. I think we're going to go faster than that. We got things lined out pretty good as far as that goes. Good, good. So, that's just what we're telling everybody. Okay. So, show season to become, this is probably one of your last shows for the year, I'd imagine. Yeah. So, they need a hunting rifle by this fall, they're going to get it. So, how do you accept deposits? I mean, obviously, you know, the big ticket item, it's kind of hard to just shell that out. But do you take a deposit? Yeah. We take a deposit for each rifle. We take a $4,000 deposit. And then when the rifle's done, you come and pick it up or shoot it, or we ship it to you and you pay the balance then. Okay. Well, with tax season and tax refunds coming up and everything else, I don't know. Maybe a guy gets his allowance. I don't know. Tag draw's coming up. You draw a big tag, you better get on the horn quick.

And you know what, we have that happen. Later on sometimes. Yeah, we do. You're not saying you couldn't in a certain situation, but ideally, you need to plan for six months so that these guys don't jam me in six weeks. I'm just waiting for a cancellation like they do in the hunting world and the guy loses his deposit. That's what I'm waiting for.

Well, yeah. That doesn't happen. They're probably a very healthy waiting list and the next guy in line gets the gun. All right. All right. So, tell us a little bit what I like about you guys, your hunters, your killers, and that's kind of what brought you to the table in the hunting industry. But, you know, as far as making a living building rifles, tell us about some of the hunts you went on this year. Yeah. I went on a hunt with my daughter this year. She grew up hunting. I took, when she very first was 12 years old and could hunt in Wyoming, I took her to Cody and would shoot whitetails. We did that until she got into high school. And then when she got in high school, she started to play soccer. So, for four years. It was tough. It was tough. I never took her hunting. And then, just out of nowhere, she decided, Dad, I'm going to go on a mission. So, she went on a mission.

So, this last year was the first time I got to go hunting with her. In about six years or so? Seven years. Wow. Yeah, seven years. So, she built some points up maybe in Wyoming. She had some points. Is that where you did a deer hunt? We went. We took the llamas. We packed in the last four days of the season. You're a llama guy. Llama guy. Yeah. Yeah. So, we packed in. And it was just me and her and my nephew, Colby. Do you know Colby that works for Mountain Ops? Yeah. He filmed the whole thing. That's awesome. You know, two feet of snow. She trekked in there. She never complained. And we had a blast. And she shot a deer. The very last day, it was 488 yards. And she shot my big 300 Ultramack. Just drilled it perfectly. Wow. And I'll tell you, that was so fun. But I had, I went to Colorado with my two sons. And we shot a deer there. I got in trouble. Wow. He shot it.

I thought it was a 190 deer. And it scored 174, you guys. So, your voice on. Oh, he was so mad at me. Yeah. Well, yeah. You know, I know how to make him 190. Just take him to a different person. Oh, man. Hey, so I want to backtrack just a little. You said Colby works at Mountain Ops. Does that stuff even work? Does Mountain Ops even work? Does it work as good as Monster? Let me tell you.

I know one product that does work. They have this stuff that's like, it's in a bag. And it has a nutmeg or something in it. But it helps you sleep at night. Really? It freaking works. Really? Yeah. So, I always thought Mountain Ops is one of those that pumped you up. This one actually slows you down. Yeah. This one just helps you sleep at night. Wow. Really? But they, yeah. Their stuff works, you guys. Okay. I used it. Did you? All right. I didn't know if he'd know. Just go behind the scenes of what Colby might say. Colby still do a little for you guys. He used to do, I know, your social media and stuff. And I don't know if he still does. He does. And he's awesome at it. Instagram. And he's going on his own. Yeah. And he's going to. Going to do what? He's photography. Film stuff. And he's good at it. And he's. Does Mountain Ops know this? Yeah. Are they going to learn from the podcast?

No, they know. I know Jordan and those guys. We love those guys. The Mountain Ops guys. Of course, they support some of our good friends. Yeah. Shed Crazy. Yeah. Ben Dedamati and a few of these guys. And so, we do like them. I like just teasing them a little bit. Right. We'll give them a little free air time. But anyway. Well, cool. Anything else you want to talk about right before we end this thing? Yeah. You know, I just. No, I feel blessed to be able to be in this industry and to do the things that we do. You know, I was in the glass business for, you know, 20 years. And I didn't mind it. But it was just a drudgery, you know. Well, you kind of turned in a personal hobby in a way. Yeah. Like Jason and I. It takes a sacrifice. Exactly. You just don't flip a switch. Right. And you've got a gun business running itself and making you a living or something else.

And so, you've got to, you know, you're leaving something steady to some extent for something that's brand new and upstart. Right. But the good thing about it, your name's on it. Kind of like Jason and I with Epic Outdoors. And you're the kind of guy, Todd, we know you. You're not going to let your personal business fail because your name and your reputation mean more than anything to you. Yeah. No. And so, it's not like it's that risky. Yeah. But at the same time, it's easier just to have a different job that you've had for a long time. Yeah. And go to work doing that. So, one thing I've learned over the years is every job, there's pressure and there's headaches and it doesn't matter what it is. And there's just things that you go through. Yeah. And you have to work through them. You know what I mean? It doesn't matter what it is.

Adam and I have always teased each other because he'll be working his guts out at 3 in the morning. And his office is right next to mine. And, of course, we've got windows. And I look at him. I'm like, remember Bronson? They don't pay people to wet a line. You know? You don't just get paid to kill stuff. Right. Whether it be fish or deer or elk or whatever. You know, that's one thing I really, really miss. I fly fished everywhere for a long, long time. I did. Yeah. I miss that. Yeah. Well, don't think about it. Just don't think about it. It's the only way we can get through our days, too. You mentioned wet the line. And so it rained. You know, I thought fishing, you know. Well, tell us, yeah, maybe before we wrap up, what do you have on tap for this year? Personal hunts or something? Seems like you maybe get something, maybe hopefully brewing. Yeah. Some elk points in Utah.

Maybe trying to catch them in. Yeah, so I'm going to go hunt with Josh over there. Josh Horrocks. Yeah. Our good buddy. I've hunted with him. South Slope Diamond Mountain. He's awesome. You know, I'm trusting him. He's going to burn some points. Yeah, I'm going to burn some points. Good, good. His words were, Todd, we're going to shoot a .360 to .380 bull. I said, Josh. Ooh, and it's on the air. In fact, after this hunt, let's have a podcast. After this hunt, I'm going to interview you and Josh. All right. He's probably going to be like, you know, that Todd couldn't shoot. He needed to bring a gun that could shoot. That ain't going to be a problem, guys. I'm going to be ready. All right. Pressure's on, Horrocks, if you're listening. That's right, Josh. Yeah. We can get ready, buddy. Yeah. So awesome. Good guy to talk to, though. Oh, yeah. Wait until you go with it. Yeah.

He's a pleasure to hunt with. He's a good guy. We hunted lions with him and everything else I've sent. In fact. One of my main guys, you know, over there at Under Armour, archery killed a deer during rifle. Like, you could have hunted with a rifle and killed one with Josh the first freaking five hours he got there. Really? Josh has got some amazing property. He's a good guy. Yeah. A couple things you guys have come to mind that have in common just before we end here is you both have unique ringtones. You, I think, have like an old Chris LaDue song. Yeah, Chris LaDue. And Josh has like Alabama play me some mountain music. I know. Just these old country song guys. So there you go. It's going to be a good marriage right there. Well, I just want to, I've been thinking about the next podcast we're going to do with you. I want to talk about the llamas a little more. Okay.

I can see the use like in grizzly country because they would have a, a grizzly would have a target to run after instead of me. Well, you know what? I went on an elk hunt in Wyoming about, gosh, it's been seven, eight years ago. And I killed a 360 bull there. Yeah. But those llamas, if you stake them out around your tent, they'll tell you when a grizzly's coming. Really? They'll tell you. Snorting and spitting. And the grizzly looks at them and is like, I don't think I really feel like a llama today. No. They won't come around. They won't bother you. Really? They make this high-pitched squill. Do they really? And it's, it's kind of eerie at three in the morning when all of a sudden that goes off and you're in grizzly country. Really? Yeah. And those bears are like, what's that? So you don't need your electric fence around your tent. You got three llamas on each side of you. Four. Four.

Those guys up in Canada, a lot of times they have a dogging camp for that reason. Bears don't mess with the dogs too much. Nope. Llamas, that's weird. I've had llamas for 35 years, you guys. Really? Yeah. I'm on my second run. My, you know, my first, they've all passed away. What do they live? What's it? Does it like a horse 20, 25 years? Or they live? How long do they live? My best llama that I had, he was about 23 years old. That's about as long as they live. I see. Holy cow. Yeah. That's like a family member. Oh, yeah. Big time, man. I cried when he died. So me teasing about them getting ate by a grizzly isn't that funny? Not really. Jason, you hit a herb. All right. All right. Kurt's going to take them this year. He's taking all the scouts from his ward and they're going to, you know. On a wilderness pack trip. Yeah. They're going to pack into the U.S. and take the llamas. Oh.

You know. Kids need to do that stuff more. I took every one of my nephews to Cody, Wyoming to shoot deer when they grew up. Oh, wow. When they were 12, I took every one of them. That's awesome. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, good. Well, we sure appreciate you guys. Thanks a lot. You know, you guys have supported Epic and Adam and I and the guys from the beginning. And we just really want to thank you for that. Thank you guys. Thank you guys. Yeah. You've believed in us and we believe in you. And of course, you're going to keep going. You've been doing it for years and years. And this is nothing new for Adam and I either. Our business is something we've done for years and years and years. So anyway, we appreciate the partnership. Thanks, Tom. Thank you guys. Appreciate it. Appreciate you guys. Thanks for stopping by today. Okay. Sounds good. Have a good show. Okay. You too. All right.

So you too. Thank you.