EP 59: Hunt Expo and Conservation with Troy Justensen

Let's talk about mule deer, some of the recovery we've seen. And so we're better able to manage deer now that we know exactly the corridors they follow. Sheep are expensive to manage. They're fragile. Anything to do with western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody out there, Jason Carter and Adam Bronson here with the Epic Outdoors podcast. Coming at you from the Hunt Expo. We're chilling out here in the booth before the Hunt Expo opens. Doing a few podcasts. Anyway, before we get started, we do want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring these podcasts. They've been a huge supporter of ours. They continue to be an innovator in the industry, especially of apparel and the hunting side. And I appreciate them and their support. I know they're working on a lot of great things for years and years down the road. And continue to work with us pretty heavy on a lot of different fronts within the Epic Outdoors. So anyway, shout out to them. Appreciate them and their support. We're pretty excited here at the Hunt Expo here at the Epic Outdoors booth. We're booth number 2845.

Come by and visit. We're giving away a free rifle. We're giving away a Weatherby Thompson Long Range. Fully set up with a day at the rifle range with Mark Thompson. Anybody who knows him knows that's going to be quite an interesting trip. So you learn a lot from Mark, but he's also a good guy and fun guy to be around. Also comes with two boxes of ammo. We're giving it away on Sunday here at the Expo. So anyway, for those of you that sign up, you'll have a name in the hat for that. Or jar, I should say. And anybody that brings their buddy by and sponsors them, they'll have a name as well. And we are working with Outdoor Edge. We've got a partnership with the Outdoor Edge Knives. Giving away a knife as well. So come by, get a knife, a name in for the free rifle, as well as the hunt giveaway. Doll sheep hunt. That's right.

So anyway, we're pretty much giving away the world down here at Epic Outdoors. Booth number 2845. We love to visit with everybody. And so a little plug for us, a little plug for Under Armour. Now we're going to plug Troy here at the SFW. He's the man, the myth, the legend here at the Hunt Expo. Buck stops here. Oh, Cowboy Troy sitting right here in the Epic Outdoors booth. How are you, Troy? Doing well. Glad to be here, guys. Good. Well, we sure appreciate you, Troy. I know it's basically been 363 days since we talked last with you here on the podcast with Adam and I when we first got started with these. Yes. And so, I don't know. I guess we just kind of want to do, there's a lot to talk about. And I know you've got a very short amount of window time that we can grab you here. But you've got a lot of things going on. Basically, just remind guys your position here with SFW.

And then let's kind of talk about the things that have happened in the last 360 days. I'm currently the president of Sports and Fish and Wildlife. Been involved in this organization since the beginning. You know, going on 25 years. And then started out as a volunteer. And it's quite humbling to be entrusted with the reins at this time. Yeah. Pretty blessed and grateful. Awesome. This is the one, well, not the one, but the biggest deal that you guys have for the year. You obviously do about 18 or 20 individual chapter banquets. But this is the big one here. You're, I guess, you know, other state chapters. You're kind of your national convention, if you will. And the big kahuna that kind of kicks the rest of the year off. It is. We've had one banquet leading up to this. We were in Richfield, Sevilla County. You know, last week had a great banquet there. But this is a lot of fun.

People come up to me and say, man, you're going to be glad when this is over? And I say, no. I mean, we've got a great team here with the Mulder Foundation ourselves and a lot of great volunteers. And, man, it really comes off without a hitch. And it's a joy to be here. Is this number 10 or 11? 12. Whoa. Holy cow. You're getting old. Yes, we are. That's the same number of max points in Wyoming for elk and deer. There's a random fact for you today. Anyway. He's grasping for facts. Hey, hey. I'm not grasping for anything. I'm high on monster. Yeah. I see that. You guys are evil. Hey. Well, anyway. Yeah. They say it works as good as mountain ops, but I don't know. We're going to have to tease those guys a little bit. So, Troy, tell us a little bit about kind of some of the different projects you guys have been working on. Of course, we've got the Hunt Expo tags.

You know, you can apply online, but you've got to validate in person. Correct. And there's like 200 different tags, packages you can do, options as far as getting tags here in Utah. And you can only do that here at the Hunt Expo. Yeah, it's kind of a unique thing. There's nowhere other place in the nation that offers that. We've got a unique partnership with the Division of Wildlife Resources. You know, they allow us to have those tags here at the Expo to give away by drawing. Like it says, you can apply online, but you do have to be present to validate. And the majority of those are big game tags and some of the best units in the state. I mean, Ponce have gone on the best. The best of the best. It's like two state draws. It is. It gives you another option. We get Christmas in February next week when the results come out.

Hopefully we'll see our name on there, and then the real state draw comes out in May. But this is kind of a teaser. Well, and even though I applied for Desert Sheep, even though I've already drawn a Desert Sheep once in a lifetime, a guy can come in. That's the one way you can get one. Yeah. Waiting periods don't apply. Man, I just wish a lot of these state agencies could turn it around as fast as we do. We put in, we're done sending the results in a week. In a week, we're holding you to it. Wednesday or no, Thursday or Friday or something next week. And it just seems like, Troy, I mean, you've been here, I know, from the start, not as president, but as an employee over the 12 years. And we're just looking behind us here. It just keeps going this way. It keeps growing. I don't know where we're at. I don't know how many individual exhibitors are. And how many you have on a waiting list.

But what can you tell us about the growth you've seen over 12 years? And then maybe, is there any more room to actually grow? I mean, it looks like we're filling this. I know there's some rooms behind closed doors. It won't be long. We might have to move this thing to Vegas. But I don't think that powers to be will let that happen. It's not going. Game and Fish ain't going to let us give away Utah tags in Vegas. I get that. No, we are growing. And there is a huge demand. And we've probably got close to 200 people on the waiting list. We've got over 375, 400 different vendors here. Right now, already. Our goal is this, though. We don't want to saturate it. Yeah, there is some place for growth there. But our vendors that are coming here that have been with us and support us, they're selling things. And that's why they come back.

And so we don't want to dilute it so much that they don't have that good experience when they come. So our whole goal is to keep this beneficial to everybody, to us and also those that come to support us through showing their goods here. Tell us a little bit about these application fees. Like, I'm applying. It's costing me $5 per tag that I want to apply for. Tell us a little bit about where that goes and what the plans are for the use of those funds. You know, what that is, is that $5 application fee is we get to keep that as the organizations, Mule Deer Foundation and SFW. Obviously, there's a hard cost that goes into that with having a third-party company do the drawing and also the legwork that goes to people to sign up people. But once that number's determined, the amount, the net amount, so to speak, that's split between the two organizations.

And we have that to invest back in to wildlife and wildlife projects. And as far as SFW goes, we have a system that we put money back into a big game here in the state through the conservation permit program. And so now we have an opportunity with those $5 application fees to invest back into upland, game, and waterfowl. Have a little bit more latitude, if you will. They're not all earmarked. Like, conservation permits all have, you know, stringent, you know, 90-10 splits. And then the division and the groups, you know, both have to sign off on each project. But they, yeah, you don't, those don't go to non-game, you know, prairie dogs and all that. You can't spend it. It's very earmarked. And so, but this one, there is more latitude to you guys that you, not that you don't do them on big game, but it gives you latitude to spend it on, like you said, upland game and waterfowl.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, we can. We can spend it on big game or whatever. And the way it kind of works is of that $5, $1.50 of it's restricted that we have to have the permission of the division based upon an approved project, similar to what the conservation is. But the $3.50 is unrestricted. It just has to go towards our mission accomplishment, you know, accomplishing our mission. So that's. What is your mission? Our mission is basically conservation, tradition, and education. And that's yours, and that's sort of fish and, sports for fish and wildlife. So that could have fishing involved in that, right? Yeah, you know, that's. Stream access. We want a little bigger fish down there where we're at. Hey, you know, we actually got some. We got some exciting stuff coming with fishing in the state. You do? I mean, we're looking. Like what? There's really.

I'll give you an example because that's something that really never changes. But we're actually looking to try and get a disease-free strain of the Lahotten cutthroats. Oh. To bring. You know, you hear about the big cutthroats they catch in Pyramid Lake in Nevada? Oh, the giants. Those are 20-pounders. Oh, you ain't kidding. But then also bring in kings. We have kokanee salmon. King salmon. Landlocked kings. I call bush. Landlocked kings. Never heard that term. Landlocked kings. Really? But those fish are getting. Where are you putting them? The Great Salt Lake? Well, that's why we're in the talking with the shrimp. The shrimp? To see exactly where they are. Oh, jeez. Next, we're bringing great whites for the saltwater. Let's get a conservation permit for fishing for great whites. I want to earmark my $5 to go to mule deer.

It is a challenge. I know. SFW, you're dealing with a wide variety of fronts. Yeah. Broad constituency-based. We all grew up deer hunting and elk hunting and all that. But there's... And you're one of them, Troy. You're a very passionate... I know you've got some twin teenage boys. You're a very passionate waterfowl hunter with them. But there's very passionate turkey and upland game clubs. You know, more so in northern Utah. Jason and I are from the south. And so we don't have as much habitat for the vast upland game, you know, leases and stuff up here. And then the fishermen, like you're talking about. You've got some of the stream access bills we've had come through Utah for years. You want to see some passionate people come to the Capitol Hill. You're talking about access stream bank rights. They'll make us deer and elk and sheep hunters. They'll put us to shame in some gardens.

We need some of those on our team. We need some of those on our team. You've got a very broad constituency base. You're trying to keep everybody happy to an extent the best you can. How's that going for you, Troy? Well, here's the key to it. I mean, just like what your business is, is trying to find guys the opportunity to hunt big game. As young kids growing up, sometimes there's not an opportunity. We've got to draw a general tag here. And so if they're waiting to have the experience to get out in the woods to go hunt, waiting for that big game tag, sometimes they're lost to video games or whatever. You get them involved in fishing. You get them involved in upland game, waterfowl. You know, waterfowl, we have a 107-day season. So they experience it. It gets in their blood. And then it carries on to the next level. I know for waterfowl, correct me if I'm wrong.

I know upland game, there's no minimum age to hunt. Is there any minimum age to get a federal stamp for waterfowl? Yeah, a federal duck stamp with a 16, you have to be 16 to buy a duck stamp. That's how naive I am. Well, no. But upland game, you don't have to. You can buy, as soon as you pass hunter safety, you get hunter safety card, you can hunt upland game birds. Same with waterfowl, but you don't have to buy a duck stamp until you're 16. Oh, so you can't. Okay. So you can hunt them at eight. If you can read and write, pass hunter safety, and get a hunting license, cut them loose. And we've got a youth day for waterfowl. I took my boys out there this year, and they shot 85 shells, and we got three ducks. Well, and they're talking about it to every one of their friends, probably. Oh, yeah. Like, I slapped that trigger left and right, you know, or whatever they're saying.

Adam's bringing that up because we found a new place to hunt in Cedar City, and it's our sewer pods. Yeah, exactly right. We don't have water to hunt down there, Troy. We don't. We've got Kwichapah and the sewer pods. Yeah. Well, that's exactly right. You know, and they, you know, they jumped the gun by, let's say, three or four years. Once you're able to, you know, maneuver a shotgun, eight or nine or whenever, you can hunt, you know, a hundred and something days for waterfowl, you said. 170, he said. And probably longer than that if you count all the upland game seasons from September to December. So, yeah. You're kind of a big waterfowler, huh, Troy? I love to hunt waterfowl. You know, I actually invested in an airboat and had a lot of fun with my boys out there. It is. You could go through alligators in Florida with that thing. Yeah, exactly right. Swamp people.

Let's get a new TV series. Troy the swamp cowboy. Yeah, that's right. You're right. Exactly right. Well, I've seen some pictures, you know, on that through the SF Air Sports and Voice magazine and whatnot. And, yeah, and I'm talking about stuff I know nothing about. But I know up here there's cult followings for waterfowl places, whether it be leases or clubs or whatever. Yeah, you guys got duck clubs up here like they do in California, don't they? There is duck clubs up here. But, you know, what we're geared towards is providing the opportunity for the public. Public land. The average guy to be able to get out and get access and have the opportunity to have a great time. State wildlife management areas, places like that, right? And invest them back in that. So tell us a little bit about Sports and Fish and Wildlife and the investment into waterfowl

and some of these different projects you've got going on. Well, like I said, we've got a big project going up here north on Harrell Crane. We've got a big dredging project we're going to fund with a $5 app and also to extend a dyke to keep, you know, obviously you don't have ducks unless you have water. Yeah. Just like you pointed out. And so we're investing a considerable amount of money there. And then Ogden Bay with Rich Hansen. I mean, it's really a crown jewel of WMAs for upland game and waterfowl. We're going to invest a lot of money in that to make that crown jewel, you know, to improve habitat for upland game and waterfowl hunters as well. But don't get me wrong. Man, we are 100% committed to big game. Well, that's never going to change. But our emphasis in bringing it up is there is a whole different segment. And Jason and I don't relate to it, mainly because of where we grew up.

And so that we have sand and sagebrush. And we see ducks. When we see ducks, we hear geese a mile above us. I heard some. I heard some geese the other day. I looked up. Wow. You know, Troy, sometimes down there in the middle of southern Utah, near Lake Powell, and you hear geese, and you're like, well, I haven't heard that word. You know, and they're heading for somewhere way south. Well, and I've just decided I really think we need to legalize, you know, like the 300 Weatherby on a goose because it's just like that's the only opportunity we have. And so you've got to look at us little people. They're not stopping. They're just cruising. They're cruising. And I know I can hit one, Troy. We just need to look at the little people in southern Utah once a while. As much as you guys have been hunting sheep, you've seen chuckers. Oh, so there you go. I do see them. I hear them everywhere.

Chuckers. You're right. I guess we could talk about chuckers. I love chuckers, actually. Exactly right. Yeah, they're everywhere. And tell us, give us an idea for people listening, you know, I know all the $5 application fees that the Expo generates aren't yours. You said there's some restricted. The division has influence how it gets spent. And also the other part you, I think it's half with Mule, did you split that maybe equally? But give us an idea. You're talking about some of these waterfowl and up-and-game projects that you're going to fund. And they're not going to be cheap. But give us an idea of what you anticipate for, say, 2018, putting back in from your $5 fees to these projects. Just the water projects alone, like I talked about on Harold Crane, it's over $250,000. Yeah. It's substantial. It is. Wow.

Yeah, you're talking about huge equipment and, you know, dredging, like you said, stuff that sounds like a lot of work. Yeah, it is a lot of work. It does sound like a lot of work. What about, let's talk about mule deer, some of the recovery we've seen. I know Adam and I, we call it the general. And you made mention of the general. And, of course, it's not general anymore. We really do have to apply for that. And there's a separate set of point system for that. And, of course, we can apply for both the limited entry and, quote, the general and gain points for that and potentially draw that. Of course, you only get one deer tag in the state of Utah. But tell us a little bit about that, the effects. You feel like maybe Sportsman's for Fish and Wildlife has had on this recovery. And I call it a recovery. We just want big deer back. And it feels like we've got big deer back to a degree.

Tell us a little bit about that. I would agree 100%. And it's a several-pronged approach. I mean, we spent years and years doing, you know, projects and improving habitat. And I think we were really ahead of the game on improving our mule deer habitat. One of the things you brought up that we're real short on water this year, especially in the southern part of the state on a world-renowned pond scout. Helps for less feeding. You don't have to do the feeding program as much. Yeah, but it creates another problem. So we've been spending some money hauling water. There you go. And filling some of these ponds to these deer have that water until we get some spring range or something. We're hearing about some dedicated hunter projects of guys being able to haul water to some of these guzzlers on the pond scout. You're exactly right. And so there's a lot of things. And this is January.

It's crazy. It's crazy. Well, actually, February now, but it was in January that the biologist Josh Pollack told us in January that they were doing that. And so that's unheard of. Like, I mean, I was a biologist down there in 2002, and we had to do it that year, but it was when the deer were showing up to the winter range in October and everything was dry. And this is the other way. They're on the winter range running out of water before they go back to some range. We've got to sustain them where they're at. And they've got some radio colors on some of these deer, does and fawns and whatnot, be able to see what kind of effects this might have. I don't know how extensive it is. We need rain. We need rain. Well, you bring that up, Jason, and that's a neat thing with technology. I mean, we've seen the technology advance in the hunting world.

I mean, we've got guns that are shooting over 1,000 yards of muzzleloaders. We just talked to them. Yes, I agree. I agree. But it's also advanced on the wildlife management side with this new process of putting these collars on and, you know, being able to track these deer. They did that big study on the migration up there in Wyoming on those deer, and they were able to track it all the way down. And now we've invested a considerable amount of money here in Utah to do that same thing. And we're learning that what we thought was isn't. Yeah. And so we're better able to manage deer now that we know exactly the corridors they follow, that we can protect them. It's a neat thing. Yeah, we're seeing on the ponds. We're seeing deer clear from Penguitch Lake. It's unbelievable. Clear down there to winter. You know, general season, quote, general season deer. Showing up on limited entry.

Going to the Ponce to winter. And not just boundary, you know, Penguitch Lake. Yeah. We're talking deep north. Deep north. Penguitch Lake. Crossing it. Crossing Zion and down to the ponds. And one thing Adam and I are really excited about is the fact that they radio clogged some bucks. Okay? That's what we wanted to know. And anyway, of course, we're not going to get any of that information. But we did tease him about that. And sure enough, this winter they're doing it. And they're going to see some of these travel patterns of the bucks as well. Putting collars on bucks on the Ponce to winter range. But seeing how many of them, some are there and how many of them dissipate back to neighboring units. Because we're learning, you know, and a lot of it maybe stemmed a little bit from that big Wyoming study.

But we talked about the distance that some of those deer moved through in winter ranges. And we're learning a little bit more of that in southern Utah on some of these highly migratory units. A lot of our northern Utah stuff, it's more of an elevational thing, you know, up, down. You know, but in southern Utah, they move along. We've known they've moved. And Ponce and Deer are the most notable. They move when we feel they don't need to move or shouldn't have to move. But it gets early October and it gets a cold rain. I'm heading to Arizona. And they start moving. And it's pretty interesting, like I said, the advancements in GPS technology. And you guys are, you know, stepping up to play along with Mule Deer Foundation, I know, funding projects like that. And that's awesome. Well, I think it is pretty awesome. And, you know, like you mentioned, we've done a lot with habitat.

But, you know, once you have the habitat, you need the animals. Sure. I think that's where the predator control comes in. There's a lot of other things that you guys are working on. Continue to promote. Of course, we give money to people to kill coyotes. Yes, we do. Not many states that do that. Yeah. You're exactly right. We pay the general public to kill coyotes. And that's a good thing. Yeah. How cool is that? How cool is that? So, but, yeah, you know, that's what's cool about Utah. We do come up with some of these innovative programs. I, you know, we're paying guys basically, what, 50 bucks a dog? Is that where we're at? And they obviously come in with GPS coordinates and whatnot and be able to, you know, harvest those coyotes, get a paycheck for it. Of course, it probably doesn't even pay the gas per se. But I'm just saying it is an opportunity. And no other state's doing it.

We think outside the box. I didn't think it would last that long. Here we are how many years later still doing it. Yeah, exactly. I think it does more than just a way for a guy to make money. It's not about that. I mean, it puts money back into economy. Guys are spending money on shells, gas, whatever. Justifying it to their wife. Exactly. Running gas bills on the family credit card and showing the income from the hunting side. Now I got tax write-offs. I killed two coyotes. I've got a whole business, and I got tax write-offs. You know what I'm saying? Good job, honey. Let's talk about sheep a little bit. We have to do that, Troy. Oh, yeah. You and I both, we love them. And let's talk maybe, we could go a lot of different directions. Let's talk about units that we're opening up now. I know Oak Creek this year is one that SFW, Utah Finals, and others have been involved with from the start.

Tell us a little bit about where that unit came from in terms of, you know, not very long ago. Five, six years? It's amazing the progress we made. What we're going to now do this fall for the first time. Yeah, it is exciting. We've got a new sheep unit. You know, those sheep were brought onto the Oak Creek from Antelope Island and the Newfies. And it was, you know, five, six years ago that we put them there. Now we have a huntable population, and that's pretty exciting. But, you know, you look, you go and see what the division actually did this year with sheep, and it's a bunch. We went in and establishing a new herd or else trying to resurrect an old herd in the north of San Juan. Down in that country, we've got great genetics coming off the Zion, which has got the Nevada bloodline to grow those big old buggers.

And so there's a lot of other things we're looking at, different places to open up and put new sheep herds. We had some things change where we don't have the conflict with domestics anymore. So I predict that Utah. Which comes from money that you guys raise? It is. Conservation groups. Conservation funds. You know, and the two drivers behind that are Sports and Fish and Wildlife and Utah Finau's, which is now Utah Wild Sheep. Wild Sheep. And so those are the guys really driving it, you know, to increase our sheep populations within the state. Yeah. Well, it's awesome. You know, sheep tags are very hard coveted. It's not like, you know, one new unit is going to spread out the Rocky Mountain applicants that much. But it's sure exciting to see. And it helps the problem. I call it a problem. With Newfies and Antelope Island, they need thinning every three to four years. They're prolific.

They're nursery herds. And if you just let them go unabated, it's a ticking time bomb up there. So it saves a problem potentially up here by keeping them thinned out and starting a new herd. And it's almost unheard of to go from zero to five or six years and you're doing a hunt. It's pretty amazing. You know, we've been able to take more rams than you normally put on a new unit because we've got the excess rams. We've got to get rid of them. We've got to get them off Antelope Island or the Newfies to some extent. And so we've been able to propagate the mature ram population a little bit more than just growing them from lambs like you do on a normal transplant. But it's awesome. And what I think is amazing is when you pull open an old set of regulations from 1970s, 1980s, look at how many sheep hunts we had back then. Exactly. Now open up your rigs. 19. You tell us we haven't done much?

Yeah, it is a slow process over 20 years, 10 years, 15 years. So how did that come about? Oh, a lot. It came through the conservation permit program. And quite honestly, that's why we have sheep for the normal guy to hunt there this year is we had those permits and that money. Sheep are expensive to manage. They're fragile. They're susceptible to disease, predation. Their numbers are never prolific or have the potential to be prolific like deer and elk. They're just not built that way in this era. Historically, they were the most numerous big game animal in North America. They're a sensitive species. But now they're sensitive. Like we tease. They look for a reason to die. They're born looking for a place to die, and we know that. So it takes money. And are careful with that. You're right. 74, 73, 74, there was no Rocky Mountain bighorn tags.

And there for a two or three year period, the deserts were shut down in 73, 74. There was no tags. And now we got 40 to 50 of each. Yeah. Exactly. Tags a year. 40 to 50 tags. Isn't that amazing? That's a successful program in 40 years. A classic example of how hunters, you know, are conservationists. We are the true conservationists, Jason. There's no doubt about it. If there was no hunters involved there, and they were just left to themselves after some of those early die-offs in San Juan County. Would we have 50 tags? They would probably be listed or something in Utah in all. They could be. You get a wrong group that says, hey, we got to, you know, they were listed as a state endangered species, not a federal, in New Mexico for a lot of years. All these new units that are opened up, what, four or five years ago-ish?

And so, you know, not far-fetched to think something couldn't happen on a state or national level. Look at prairie dogs and stuff in Utah. Look at Nevada and different things that, you know, they've had some challenges in their sheep programs. We see it all the time, and it does take active groups to manage this and help with those conservation efforts. And so, anyway, as we were driving up here, Adam and I were talking. We're like, well, the oaks is freaking open for sheep. You know what I mean? Not for non-residents, obviously. But, Adam, you've hunted the oaks a little bit. Yeah. Maybe just give us a five-second rundown, ten seconds. Well, we'll give you 30. How about that? Talk about what you think as far as the oaks and what to expect and the physical limitations of that unit, where those sheep are.

Well, yeah, like Troy said, they're off of Antelope Island and the Newfoundland Mountain. Those sheep originated in southern B.C., so they're California bighorn. And we don't draw California bighorn with a point system in Utah and Rockies and deserts in California. We just lumped in with the Rockies. But it gives you another option now, and, you know, when that unit burned five or six years ago, I remember a lot of us, when we see sheep country burning, we're like, all right, this is looking good. Well, and I saw the burn, and I was like, there's going to be some giant mule there on the oaks. We thought that, and it happened. And what happened? Both things. Okay, Adam's thinking sheep. I'm thinking giant mule there. Of course, Adam's a big mule there, too. I was a biologist with the DWR, and we looked at that unit 10 to 15 years ago and kind of tabled it for the time being.

So it was just like, there's some good habitat there, but maybe not quite ready. And, of course, it did depend upon the surplus sheep in these other units we're talking about. You've got to have a source herd. But then when that burnt and it just crushed the trees and all that, it ripened it. Looked for what reason? Yeah, just from a visibility and a security standpoint, sheep in general, I mean, there are certain units, like some of the Zion sheep, they'll use stuff that's not traditional sheep. They'll use trees. Thick trees. They're in with deer sheds. They're deer sheds and desert sheep together. But generally sheep, they have incredible eyesight, and they use that as a tool. They want visibility. They can out-climb and run stuff, but they want visibility in the general as their safety valve. If they can see it, and they can see it, that's it.

So, in thick, thick trees, generally it's not suitable. Now, there's exceptions for that in some of the Colorado, Ohio country and different units. They timber up. Yep. But when you clear out that thick, thick pinyon juniper, mahogany, and standing spruce fir, it's a rocky mountain under it. It's rocky. Oh, it's a nasty site. It's nasty and rocky. Snake infested. Oh, amen. So, you know, so it is, it's got a few roads up some of the major drainages coming off that west side. But it's a steep, it's not a giant unit, but it's steep and craggy. And it's going to be a classical sheep hunt. Yeah. It's going to be a good sheep hunt. Yeah. Somebody's going to have a good hunt there this year, whoever's the lucky one or two people. Well, Troy, anything else you want to tell us about? I know you mentioned something about culling contests and different things, you know, with ducks, waterfowl. Yeah.

We're excited here since we're on waterfowl. But now here at the Expo for the first time this year, we have the regional duck calling championships and then the state duck and goose calling championships. Adam's entered that. Exactly. He's going to take it. And so the winner of the regionals will actually go back to Stuckhart, Arkansas and compete for the world in the championship of duck calling. And, man, if you're involved in waterfowl, you know the name Stuckhart, Arkansas. I mean, I tell you what, Mallard capital there is. Is it? Is it? Okay. I take your word for it. Troy, I wouldn't know which end of a duck call to blow into myself. When you first mentioned that city, I was thinking, are we talking Florida? I mean, I don't know. We'll get Uncle Cy to help you with that. Oh, yeah. So, well, maybe they even judge that. They probably do.

Or at least maybe you have to use their calls to enter. I don't know. All right. Well, anything else you want to talk about? Obviously, people can come by and visit. You guys got an amazing amount of deer heads over at the SFW, the main entrance there. And I couldn't help but notice Dan Smith's giant, freaking giant monster muley. That is a nice deer. For sure. Nice. You know, that's like we talked before last year, Jason. I don't know if I'll ever be involved in as big a mule deer as that again in my lifetime. And to share that with Dan, that's really who I started my hunting career with. And to see him at 70 years old, to take a buck like that, just kind of, is the pinnacle. Those G4s are unbelievable. I don't think it's going anywhere else. It's a magnitude. It's giant. Yeah. It's, you know, obviously 250. Is it just called some odd inch deer? It grows actually 270 inches. What?

It's pretty gross. What was I thinking 250s? What's a net? Maybe that's where I got this. Yeah, yeah. Fish is for nets. Nets are for fish. I don't know, to be honest with you. No wonder it looked big. It's a deer. And forgive me if it has a name. It probably had a name on one of your leases until you killed it. I don't know what it was. But it deserves a name if it doesn't have one. Because it's going to go, it's a legend. You know, that is a legend buck. It's funny you say that. We didn't name the deer. But amongst the locals in Colville, they called him the legend. Oh, really? That was the name. Kind of the thing that I equated it is, that is a legend deer. And in my mind, it was killed by a legend. Dan's probably one of the legends in mule deer hunting. He's not as well talked about as some of the other big mule deer hunters. But Dan Smith has killed some of the biggest deer. Yeah.

Dan Smith. I have a immense amount of respect for those guys. You know, conservation elk tags, deer tags, sheep tags over there. They put a lot back into it. Well, as we kind of close up here, I just want everybody to come down. Feel free to come down and visit. Visit Troy. Visit us here at the Epic Outdoors booth here at the Hunt Expo. It's at the Salt Palace going on from now through Sunday, February 8th through the 11th. It was the scheduled day. Adam and I won't be missing it for years and years and years to come. We appreciate you, Troy. You guys are great. You've always been a great friend of Adam and I. And, of course, you know, hunter and conservationist and an outfitter. And you know every portion of the industry from one end to the other. And so nobody better fitting to be the president of SFW than you, in my opinion. So, anyway. Thank you. I appreciate that.

And I'm excited to see you guys have the success you guys are. You guys deserve it. Thank you. We appreciate that. So, anyway. Thanks a lot. We know you're busy. You've got a lot of probably other stuff to do. So, thanks for making an hour for us this morning. Yeah. Sounds good. Thanks a lot.