EP 60: Hunting Giant Mule Deer With Mike Duplan, Jason Carter, and Adam Bronson

Most of Colorado can produce a 200-inch deer. Every unit's got some big, big deer in it. Unbelievable deer. Where do I do it? How do I use my points? On and on. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter and Adam Bronson here with the Epic Outdoors Podcast. We just want to let everybody know, we've got a lot of listeners out there that aren't a member of our service. We produce nine magazines a year. It's monthly, December through June. Talk about all the Western states, drawing on skill percentages, best units, and break it down for applying across the West. We're also available to visit. We help guys develop short-term, mid-term, long-term hunt strategies, application strategies, as well as helping you buy landowner tags, hunts, and all kinds of different things that deal with Western big game hunting. So anyway, a lot of podcast information out there. Of course, that's free and fun to listen to while you're traveling.

But if you want the detailed information, join Epic Outdoors on epicoutdoors.com. It's $100 a year, and we get to visit about hunting. This is the time of year when we're not actually out in the field much. We are in the office, 24-7 it feels like. And just cranking it out with a different magazine and visiting with guys over the phone and talking, hunting, and getting prepared for the fall. So if you need another reason to join, right now through the end of February, if you join, we're giving away your choice, a doll sheep hunt to be entered in to win a doll sheep hunt or a mule deer hunt with us, the Epic Crew, or an elk hunt here in Utah with the Epic Crew for anywhere that joins up until February 28th. You're entered in that. Or if you refer somebody, if you're already a member and you refer somebody that joins, make sure that you let them know to tell them that you joined them.

You'll have another name in the hat for that. There's no limit to the amount of times you can be entered or the amount of guys you can refer. But there is no way to buy tickets for this. So joining a membership or referring somebody that does is the only way to get in. So epicoutdoors.com, you can join online or give us a call at 435-263-0777. Anyway, got an awesome guest, a guy that we've been chasing around trying to corner, get him on the podcast here, a Colorado resident and a guy that's killed tons and tons of big deer as well as sheep and everything else that moves. And so anyway, super excited to get into this. Before we do, we want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring these podcasts and the support they give us here at Epic Outdoors in a lot of different ways. So anyway, you can find them in our magazine that comes out each month this time of year,

you know, as well as other forms of media. We do have the YouTube channel and all that, and they support us there as well. So anyway, appreciate them for that. And we'll go from there. Let's see. Mike, we've got Mike Duplan. Mike, you on? Good morning, gentlemen. How are you? Doing well, thank you. Good. Mike, just to kind of set the tone here, Mike's one of those guys, he's a diehard. He's a guy that anybody knows anything about mule deer. They know Mike's name, and they probably followed some of the bucks he's killed. And he's a photographer as well and takes a lot of amazing photos and whatnot, just lives for the outdoors. But without totally spoiling Mike, maybe just give us a little background and kind of what got you started. And then we can kind of dive into, you know, what you love to do and some of your favorite animals to hunt. Sounds good.

Well, right now I'm at the tail end of my career as a paramedic firefighter down in the west side of the Denver metro area for West Metro Fire Protection District. And I've got 26 years on as of about a week and a half, and I figure I've got three to four more to go at least. So that's kind of coming to an end, and my wife and I just closed on a house for retirement down in Ridgeway, Colorado. Looking forward to moving in the shadow of the San Juans. Yeah, going to move west, closer to this. Yeah, west and south a little bit. But the place I live now just north of Silverthorne is right on the edge of what's called Middle Park, and it's a long, long winter. This is, you know, arguably one of the longest winters in the lower 48 for being in the bottom of a valley. And we quite often, we had our largest single-day snowstorm that I've ever seen last year in the first week of May. Wow.

So the most accumulation I've seen since I've been up here, well, 99, I think I moved up here. And this last May, it was the biggest single-day snow I've seen. So that tells you what kind of winters we could have up here. They're long. How deep did it get? Oh, you know, it did 26 inches in less than 24 hours here at the house, and that's in the bottom of the valley in the winter range. And, you know, that time of year, the ground's thawed out and, you know, the temperatures warm up. So it really doesn't affect the animals at all. Yeah. Yeah, so. That's crazy. But I've got two grown daughters, and my wife, Shelly, and I just built a new house about a year and a half ago. So it's, you know, as far as selling what we just did and the idea of moving on, that was kind of a thing we had to wrap our minds around a little bit.

But, you know, there's a plan for the future, and we're excited about that. So I'm going to miss this area, though. Is that just with the retirement program, just kind of saying, okay, we can live anywhere we want to live once this happens? And so where do we want to live? Is that what you're thinking? Well, yeah. Yeah, you know, I want to be in an area that, you know, just does it for me. And for me, the San Juans have always been the most intriguing and fascinating place in the entire state of Colorado. It's, you know, far enough from the Denver metro area where it doesn't get weekend visitors, and so you've got that. And it's just the largest roadless, contiguous roadless in the lower 40 outside of, I believe, the greater Yellowstone ecosystem in the Bob Marshall. So it's really intriguing to be down there.

And, you know, the rams and bucks and bulls that live down there, and, you know, who knows what the future holds, but I'm excited to be going heading down that country. That's awesome. Well, yeah, you're moving western slope, a lot less people. That's what I hear out of that, and I'm sure that's fact. Yeah, the elevation is 7,000 feet. Yeah. As opposed to, I'm at 8,600 in the bottom of the valley here, so it's a, we're going to have an extra month of summer and spring to have in there. You might be able to grow a garden there.

Yeah, you might be able to grow a garden. That's right. Chickens and a garden. Chickens and a garden. Sounds organic. So what about, tell us about, I guess, growing up, Mike, and are you lifelong from Colorado, and where are you from? I've got a little bit of an interesting story. I was born in Minnesota, got hauled to Arizona when I was a little kid, and my mom ended up moving us, my sister and I, out to California. And I spent most of my formative years as a young guy out in California. Wow. First in the L.A. area, then we moved up to Tatchby in high school. And so that's where I got into hunting was in Tatchby. My freshman year in high school, I'd never hunted before, and I just happened to be in the picture line where they take your school pictures next to the guy that's still my best friend to this day.

And we met that morning in the picture line, and he's the one that got me into hunting. And it's all uphill from there. Wow. I moved to Colorado in my 22nd year, just like the John Denver song. And it's been wonderful. I've really, this is home for me. This is where my heart is. It's where it always was. I remember when I was a little kid, we lived in Arizona. My mom had a friend that lived in Durango, and my mom took me camping on Mineral Creek just right out of Silverton, Colorado. And a few people are going to know where that's at. But I just remember it was, I still remember it being five years old and being at that spot and just being in awe of it. And so it's been something that has always been in me, even though I didn't start hunting and I didn't have a, so to say, a family mentor at all. It was my buddy Mike that really showed me the ropes and got me going on it.

Out of California. Out of California. Out of California. Went from skating to surfboards to rifles. I was a skateboarding fiend as a little kid, let me tell you. I could still ride a skateboard. You cannot. Really? For a 6'7". 6'7 guy on a skateboard. Yeah, it's not what you see every day, a big guy like you. Probably got four-wheeler tires on that skateboard or something, huh? I'm smart enough to not get on one, though. Yeah. Jeez, holy cow. And so when did you make the move? Like, just paint the picture of, like, the year, roughly. When did you make the move? How old were you? 1988. Moved here in 1988. Was that about the time you started with a fire or paramedic? I don't know how old you were. No, no. That was before that. I was working construction. After I got out of high school, I had this idea in my mind.

I was going to be a pilot in the Air Force, and I had it all set to go, and nobody bothered to tell me that being 6'7 can't be a pilot. Yeah, you're going to have to build a plane around you. You're the guy that loads the plane with cargo and stuff, but you can't fly. Literally, I'm a 21-year-old man. My dreams were just absolutely crushed. I was like, oh, I've got to figure something else out. So, I think I came out to Colorado, you know, my 21st year, three times on vacation. And so, for a guy with limited income and construction and being able to come out that many times, that just shows you where my heart was. Yeah. Yeah. I did. Yeah. So, you know, I went skanking around the Uncompagre Plateau back then and looking for all the ghosts that Kurt Darner told us about that weren't there anymore. Oh, no. So, let's see.

The Mule Deer Passion started right off the bat, and Kurt Darner was a part of that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, he was a part of everybody at that generation. Yeah, he was. Yeah. I'm sure you guys remember the Remington ad with that cabin in the mountains and all those big deer hanging on that cabin. Yeah. And, you know, we can all – Kurt Darner could be a podcast in and of itself, so that's beside the point. Yeah, I'm thinking – Bottom line was just seeing that kind of stuff inspired me. Yeah. And I might have him on at some point if he'd ever do it. But he's – you know, I mean, he did love Mule Deer. There's no question. These guys that get wrapped up in it and kind of let it get the best of him a little bit, it doesn't mean he didn't know how to hunt deer. It doesn't mean he didn't love them. No. Joe Rogan had Lance Armstrong on a podcast, and, you know, it's like – All right.

Still knows how to ride a bike. That's a – he'll be judged on his own at some point in his life, and that's – we'll leave that one alone. But, you know, everybody's got an interesting story to tell for the most part. And so right off the bat, were you finding big deer? I mean, okay, so let's just cut it out. Yeah. Your buddy Mike, did he stay in California? And so when you came out, did you have any buddies then, guys you started working with that said, hey, come hunting with me? How did it first go? No, you know, I basically learned in the school of hard knocks, and, you know, it is when you're a young guy. You can really put the boots to it and hammer the mountains. And, you know, back then the Leupold Wind Rivers were the top dog of optics. Oh, I remember those. I remember the Steiners had just come out, and people were – you know, those were starting to get some press.

But, yeah, those Leupold Wind Rivers in, you know, late 80s, early 90s, and, you know, still cotton clothing and, you know, occasional wool shirt. But it was a different game then. And so, you know, I wish I would have – I remember having those Redfield 10x50s. I thought they were the cats, eh? I mean, I thought they were amazing. Yeah. Yeah, and, you know, it was one of those things that if you knew then what you know now, things would have been different. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I don't know. What was your deer hunting like in parts of Colorado? Well, my deer hunting really was just, like I said, putting the boots to it, hitting country and going hard. And I focused too much on what I thought was good deer country, but it's basically winter range back then. And, you know, I really hit the pinion juniper country hard.

And, you know, I was finding sheds, big sheds, old dinosaur things, chalky red, big pink things laying out there. And I thought, for sure, there's got to be some deer deer, but they're, you know, they weren't those high mountain valleys hunting season, those deer are up higher. So it took me a little while to figure out that out. And things started clicking and I started killing big bucks. Yeah, I was going to say, did you always, I guess, was a mule deer? I mean, you went to Colorado, they got elk everywhere, but you gravitated to mule deer for any specific reason or just captivated you? It was by necessity that the elk hunting was really poor back in the late 80s and early 90s. I mean, I killed one raghorn bull back then. And, you know, occasionally guys would come out with a little six point, like a two or three year old bull.

And, you know, about like Utah's elk hunting was before all the limited entry units were established. And, you know, that was tough elk hunting back then. And so, you know, mule deer really were it for me. And I hadn't drawn a sheep tag or anything else at that point. So I applied for my first sheep tag the first year I could really afford it. And that was the year I got hired on the fire department in 92. So I still remember being on the ambulance and driving down on the last day it was to submit my application. And, you know, you had to write a check out. Of course, my ex at that time was wondering what in the world we were putting in for a sheep tag for 150 bucks or whatever it is with our limited income. But I waited until the last day. And that was my first sheep application was in 92. Wow. Holy cow. Took me until 2000 to draw that.

But in the meantime, I was, you know, I killed a few bucks just out of, you know, hard work and some luck. And then I started figuring some stuff out and putting stuff together. Tell us about the season structure back then. And, of course, the tags, you know, a lot of them were over the counter and whatnot. But tell us a little bit about deer tags and season structure back then in those days. Well, late 90s, there was a, you know, a group that got together in Colorado and basically a bunch of sportsmen were calling out the state on their management of mule deer. And people were tired of what was going on and, you know, really wanting to change the way mule deer were managing the state and wanted more of a quality approach instead of the unlimited. So, you know, the first step was establishing, you know, it wasn't statewide deer licenses anymore.

And then the seasons got restricted a little bit and you had to pick one season and stick to it. And so there was an evolution in place there, but, you know, it worked and it worked right away. And right about 2000, you know, it was a few years into this season structure implementation, all of a sudden guys start killing big deer. Well, they're hitting four or five years old. There's a few of those bucks that finally were making it through as opposed to, you know, 90% of the age class getting wiped out every year, which, you know, as you know, for a deer to reach seven, if, you know, that many of them are getting killed every year, it's just, it's just almost impossible. So about that time, you know, big bucks are starting to appear and get killed. And I remember when I, in 2000, when I killed my big wide three point buck with some extra

points on it, that was one of the better deer killed in the state that year. And it just seemed like 2000, it took off from there. Well, and that's the thing. I think anytime you, you manage and you get some kind of a, some kind of a limited harvest to a degree, I mean, prior to, you know, in the early nineties, it just felt like there was unlimited. Yeah. There's no, and what was the seasons? What were the seasons like early nineties? Was it, it was unlimited and still having these rut seasons? There was an elk season, a deer season, then a combined season. And most of the residents, you know, went towards the combined season, which was about the same dates as their current third season. Okay. So that was, you know, how it was basically broken down. But, you know, so it was only, you know, three seasons at that point and muzzle loading really hadn't taken off.

Archery was almost unheard of at that point. And, you know, now we've got six seasons and, you know, there's more than, more people that want it than, than there is deer out there to be had. Yeah. And that's the way we were here in Utah as well, is we could basically, we had our general and you could hunt, you know, muzzleloader deer in the rut in November. And that's just. Until the early nineties. Yeah. With your general tag. Yeah. And we killed some phenomenal bucks all along the Ponce Gone on the general side. And, you know, you just, that's not how you manage deer. You don't let unlimited herds of people hunt during the rut or pre-rut, you know. Right. Now they're just way too vulnerable. In fact, the winter of, or the, in the season of 2002, I don't know if you guys remember, we had a storm hit the Colorado Central Rockies in the, in right the day before the third season opened.

And for the third season opener, there was two feet of snow on the winter range and more up higher. And the deer just piled into the sagebrush country. And I remember, uh, from middle park and Eagle County alone, there was over 25 deer that me and some other friends knew of that were over 200 growth taken in that third season. Wow. And so that just goes to show you what, you know, a little bit of management and then one storm is just, it was just crazy. So I shot a deer on the opening morning and I wish I would have held out, but you know, hindsight 2020, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I think my first year, if I remember right, well, I went, one was in high school hunting rag bull, rag horn bulls and that in the late 90s or early 90s. And then first time back was 2004. And we had one of those snow years too. Utah had got it right at the end of October. Colorado had got it on third season.

2004 was another one of those big early snow storms. And that was my first year. And it was like, this is incredible. It was unbelievable. It was, this is amazing. What have I been missing on a, on a leftover tag I picked up in August. You know what I mean? And so killed the 200 incher and thought, this is, this is where I'm going to hunt the rest of my life. Was that your first 200? Yeah, it was. First 200 inch. And I remember, you know, even my dad was headed to Gunnison and, you know, kind of had a friend over there and kind of showing the ropes and I mean, he, you know, just driving around this with his jaw on the floorboard. Winter range just, you know. Bucks everywhere. It was unbelievable. Yeah. Yeah. And I haven't seen it like that since, I will admit. I was back on the. It came to a screeching halt. Yeah. And the next year I was. Well, global warming. Yeah, that's right.

You know. I was on the. Yeah, that and the winter of 2007, 2008. Yeah. Modified it. The harvest had just started to tail off a little bit in 06 anyways. I believe it peaked in, you know, as far as Boone and Crockett entry. It peaked in 2005. I can't remember exactly. I wrote an article back in, for Western Hunter back in 2009, like the year after that. And, you know, talked about that winter and what it did. And it was absolutely devastating for, you know, some of the high mountain herds that winter, you know, the Gunnison Basin just got absolutely annihilated in Eagle County and Middle Park. And, you know, that's the core of your best big buck. You know, those high mountain valleys with the big sagebrush basins. That's where the deer do so well in the winter. And it seems cold, but it's all the feed they need.

And it's got the magic formula for, you know, just enough stuff in the summer and just enough in the winter. And they get big. And so it just hammered those valleys. And I remember coming through Gunnison Basin in that year. It was January, right after 2008 had just come around. And it was like the Arctic. It literally, the sagebrush was covered. It was stark white. As far as you can see, it looked like you'd gone north of the tree line in the Arctic. And it was just snow rolling. And snow on the deer were stacked up on the highway. There's a few cliffs there on the north side of Blue Mesa Reservoir where the deer kind of tried to tuck up underneath the cliffs and eat oak brush that was sticking above the snow. But it was brutal on them. And, you know, the Colorado Parks and Wildlife, formerly known as the Division of Wildlife, they made some choices then.

And they said, we're not going to stockpile bucks anymore. And so the idea of those kind of numbers being in the Gunnison Basin, it really hasn't been a management objective since. And, you know, that's up for a debate on what is the best approach. But, you know, to me, the intrinsic value of knowing there's really big bucks out there, you know, even if you're not going to kill them, you just got to know they're out there. That's what keeps us all going. So, you know, I feel like animals should be managed, that there is those kind of animals in the herd, even if you can't get them. Yeah. Yep. It's unbelievable. Some of the country that we, you know, that we've experienced in some of the years right in there, that mid-2000s, you couldn't do anything wrong. And I think that's what's going on now at times is, you know, if you get the right snowstorm

and you get the right weather patterns, you know, and everybody talks about weather and weather and weather. And it's 100% true in Colorado. If you get the right weather pattern, you can't, you could be on the second choice, third choice unit, bottom of the barrel. You could have an awesome hunt. An amazing hunt. And then we have these warm years like we have this past couple years. You could be in 44, 21, or anything that people think is phenomenal and hard-pressed to find a 180-inch deer, you know? Good luck. Good luck. That's all I can say. Exactly. You know, when you talk about those things, people stack their preference points for years just thinking, well, I'm going to have a whole pile of points and I'm going to draw 44 and I'm going to go in there and kill a 200-inch deer. It's like, you are sadly mistaken.

I'm not trying to poo-poo the enthusiasm, but that is not realistic at all. Well, and that's why we tell people burn them every three or four years, every two years, every one year. But, I mean, go all the time so when the weather does hit, like, you're, you know, you're just here in there. Instead of once every 15 years and you have to be, have the stars aligned, if you go through your four or five times in 15 years, odds of landing two or three times are a lot better than once. That's exactly right. That, you know, the time you spend out there, you know, actually increases the dumb luck factor. Yeah. So, you know, you may not be the greatest hunter around or may not have the best skills, but if you're out there all the time, sooner or later, you're going to run into time. It's going to happen. Oh, and you need to be out there all the time. Yep.

You know, if you're going to hold out for one tag in 20 years, you might be SOL on that one year you draw that tag. And you might, and I would say it's better than 50-50 you're going to be SOL. Yeah. It's probably going to be 70, you know. Well, and now they've changed the regulation over there where you can't turn, you can't wait until the day before the season, oh, it's going to be an awesome year, I'm keeping it, or turn it back. You've got 30 days now, so you're really. Yeah, you can turn it back, but it's 30 days before. Or you don't know what's going to be. Yeah, that's kind of a funny story. That came from a massive amount of public outcry from two guys that had drawn non-resident 44 tags in a few years back, and then they turned them in right before the season because they didn't like the way the weather was setting up.

And so, you know, really, that didn't go unnoticed, and that was the impetus for the change. Yeah. So, you know. Well, and it definitely has changed, and you know, I know Jason and I talked to a lot of guys in Colorado throughout the year of our consulting here, and Colorado deer, wouldn't you say, Jason, is probably, I don't know what we filled more calls on. Oh, that's, between that and Wyoming elk. Yeah, it's probably two of the things like that, the people were, where do I do it? How do I use my points? On and on. And really, it's a new normal right now, I would say, in Colorado, a new normal. You've got to view it through 2017-18 glasses and forget, to some extent, that 2002 to 2007. Well, and we're all kind of, you know, cautiously optimistic that the light, the bad weather, let's say good weather, the nice weather, you know, pattern the last couple years has

helped, you know, save a few bucks, and when we do end up with a weather pattern, it's just phenomenal again, but, you know, it's definitely moderated. Don't you feel like that, Mike? Like, you've seen, just moderation, like, not just phenomenal trophies. No more super top-heavy with big bucks right now. No, you look at the Boone and Crockett entries for Colorado for deer, and there's no, you know, it's a really interesting graph to look at if you took it from, like, say, 99 to now, so almost 20 years, you know, it just totally spiked during the early 2000s and absolutely dropped off for the next few years after that. Yeah. And then it's, you know, there's nothing right now that's showing a pattern of a hot area coming on. There's just, you know, scattered entries from all over the state, which, you know, that's good.

That means, I firmly believe that just about every unit in the western slope of Colorado, well, most of Colorado can produce a 200-inch deer. There's, and they're in there, you know, it's just, you know, every unit's got some big, big deer in it. Well, what I find, yeah, and what I find interesting is back in the 90s, so I had all these points, I had a load of points built up, and if you're, and you remember, and you know, but that Pinion Canyon Army Base, you know, 142 was like the most talked about, best draw, whatever, because everything else is over the counter, you know, and so that's kind of what you saved up for. And I hunted it in that drought year of 96. And I did see one big deer, but of course, I ate my tag and didn't kill anything, and it was before, arguably, it was before I really knew how to kill big deer.

And, you know, I would have done that tag a lot more justice had I had it today, but it's just crazy how times have changed. I don't even know, I don't field one phone call a year on Pinion Canyon Army Base, on 142. Yeah. Not one phone call. Ironically, there was a huge buck killed in there this year in the season. There was a 230-something buck, and it looked like only a four-and-a-half-year-old, maybe a five-and-a-half-year-old in the photo, but it's funny that you even bring that up at this point. Well, they were doing, yeah, so now, thanks, Mike, we're going to field some calls on that, but we are, you know, they were doing a coyote study. I remember we couldn't shoot coyotes, and we were, you know, glassing and driving and glassing and driving and glassing on there, and they, you know, of course, made us all camp together, and they get to regulate what you do on there.

But anyway, you know, I mean, it was like coyote infested. It was unbelievable. That's all I remember about it. That and one two. It still is that way, and most of the southeastern part of the state is that way on the eastern plain, so it's just absolutely loaded with coyotes. Anybody that draws a deer antelope tag down there could confirm that. You just see multiple dogs a day. So anybody that wants to become insta-famous on, you know, predator control could go out there and call in a bunch of dogs, you know? You could. If you want to be a social media coyote killing famous, you could go down there. There you go. So tell us, like... There's a niche. So what... Tell us, like, let's talk about the different seasons, you know, maybe jump off track a little bit here, but just, you know, the scouting. Like you said, I'm here... I'm down here.

You know, when you first enter Colorado, you're hunting the PJ for sheds. You're seeing sheds. You're hunting where the deer are. Sure. And that's what Adam and I have learned as well. I mean, we all grow up and kind of learn how to hunt. Colorado is different than other states as far as its alpine mule deer. And, you know, different parts of the states are a little different from each other. But with these deer in the summer, there's an incredible amount of recreationalists that are out there hiking, climbing mountains, and goofing off all through the Colorado. I mean, it's a vacation destination. So when you look at the access on a lot of these places where there's mountain valleys and people backpacking up through them, you know, it really does have an effect on the deer in the summering there. So, you know, it'll effectively push the older bucks out of there.

They just won't hang out in those spots. So when you look at, you know, recreational opportunity for people in the summer and want to combine your archery hunt, you know, it's something to shy away from. It really does take an effort to get away from people here in this state. And so it's something to keep in mind. And also with archery in Colorado, the tag numbers are still pretty liberal. And it just blows me away how many people are out there bow hunting now. Well, and you've got archery deer and then, you know, unlimited archery elk hunters on top of you. So you don't just draw an archery deer tag and think, ah, I've got the mountain to myself. First crack, you show up and you've got elk hunters, giant camps, 10 to 15 people. Horses, trucks, whatever. You don't know the difference between a deer bow hunter and elk bow hunter. There's just people out there. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's the same thing in the second. There's a trailhead right near my house. And that's the same thing we find in the second and third season as well when they're over the counter with rifle elk hunters. You know, you've just got a lot of orange. There's a lot of Jeeps. And anyway, down on the deer winter range, but a lot of them don't have deer tags. They've got over the counter elk tags. Yeah. Yeah, we've, the deer in Colorado and a lot of places, they're really locked into those alpine willows. And so when you get those first frosts up there and the leaves start falling off the willows, those bucks just bail out of that stuff. There's not a lot of other stuff for them to eat up there. The alpine willows and then some of that short alpine grass. But once that stuff burns and, you know, the deer just drop right out of the alpine.

And so it really makes for a tough archery hunt later in the season. It's very good in the first couple weeks, but it can change rapidly. And we often get our first snows in that alpine country in the first week or two of September. So if a guy's going to archery hunt that, obviously it's a very liberal ding near a month. I mean, you're saying go right off the bat. Hit it as hard as you can. Right off the bat. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. You should be there. And not for the opener. You should, you know, plan on killing a buck on the first couple days. You should be there a week plus before it opens. And it can take, you know, quite a bit of effort to locate a good buck in the alpine. So, you know, the guys that do actually get, you know, truly mature deer. Because, you know, some of these deer, they look like they're big, but they're, you know,

effectively three or four-year-olds velvet on them. So, you know, they look a lot bigger than they are, especially with the way guys take photos. Come on. That's a whole other podcast.

Especially for a... It's true. You know, if you want a really big deer, you've got to put a lot of effort into it. Especially into the photo taking. And you mentioned something, Mike, regarding big deer as three- and four-year-olds. I mean, Colorado genetics, it flat out grows big bucks. You've mentioned the BNC record books, you know, repeatedly. And you'd be totally ignorant to not recognize Colorado's status among both typical and non-typical mule deer entries. So let's talk about that for a minute in terms of the management trends. What do you think? I mean, there are... There is bloodlines. We know that. And that's got to play into it from a Colorado standpoint. But what do you think are some of the more important factors, you think, that has made Colorado, even through all the changes from the over-the-counter to the draw, and then now maybe things have flattened a little bit.

What makes Colorado produce like it does? And obviously it's got habitat numbers. That's like... It's got that on top of any state. You know, just to kind of... There's no doubt about it. It's the habitat summer and winter. And just the genetics of these high mountain valley herds and how you can have four-year-old bucks that make the record book. I mean, it's not crazy to think a four-and-a-half-year-old buck could net over 190. I mean, they just... Wow. They have that ability to do it. It's... I've seen it, and it is quite amazing. It's like very few places anywhere in the West that... You know, but we're talking typical four-points, and then you start looking for super top-end deer. And, you know, like compared to the Arizona Strip, which that place just boggles the imagination of what it continues to produce every deer.

Colorado really doesn't have the ability to produce a lot of non-typical like that place does. But I think, too, if it was the Arizona Strip, you know, they're managed for 60 tags or 30 or 40 tags, depending on the unit and the year, you know, and you guys are still having to manage quantity. You know, you are having to... You've got huge herds you're managing and whatnot, and it might be shocking if we take one unit and, you know, besides 44, because, you know, 44's deer numbers are just low to begin with. But if you, you know, to manage it like the Strip does, the Strip, I mean, they out and out say, this is our crowned yield, so to speak, a mule deer for our state. Yes. I mean, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, and, you know, I get that there's an idea out there of recruiting hunters and taking young kids hunting and the opportunity and all that,

but it just seems like there's way too much of a bias towards opportunity as opposed to quality for deer hunting in Colorado. I think the deer are taken for granted and used as a bit of a, you know, a cash cow to fund a state wildlife agency. And, you know, it's the nature of the beast, and, you know, there's a bureaucracy involved, and, you know, fingers pointed at other people, and that's just how it is. Well, and I think we see that with Utah. You know, we've seen it with Utah over the past. We're getting better, and we're managing tighter, but our general tags, you know, our old general tags, Idaho's over-the-counter tags, Wyoming's over-the-counter tags. Every state has a tendency to do that to a degree. I don't think it's unique necessarily to Colorado. It's a battle we all fight. Well, and I guess what I'd want to point out is despite that in Colorado,

look at what it's done over the last, you know, our lifetimes still. Tried to wreck it. We've tried to wreck it, and it's still producing it. Yeah, I mean, historically. There's something good going on. I mean, we're hunting rifle hunts pre-rut, rut, rut, you know, three basic, you know, pre-rut with the second, you know, maybe a little pre-rut third, and then rut on the fourth, and we're with rifles. I mean, and you're not supposed to do that. Proper big game management would say don't hunt the rut, you know. Right. But we do it, and they're killing us, you know what I mean, and continuing to rewrite the record book, depending on the year. Yes. Yeah, and it goes to show you that all you really do need to have is deer, need to get old, and you get big deer. One way or another. And you've probably seen all the pictures of these gigantic deer out of the Rocky Mountain arsenal

just east of Denver. And it's out by the airport, and it's 25 square miles of fenced prairie. And the biggest flipping deer on the planet are out in that place right now, and they're all over Instagram. And it's like, there's nothing special about that place. It's just, it's prairie and cottonwoods. Yeah. So feed only goes so long. No special minerals. No special genetics. Sagebrush. It's just prairie and cottonwoods. Those are the biggest deer on the planet right now. So, you know, the Henry Mountains, historically, we're not talking the last 20 years. Like, you know, back in through history, it was never known as a giant hot spot. That's right. None of them. That's right. The record book's not full of Henry. Same thing with Antelope Island. Have you seen the feed on Antelope Island? Well, you look at nothing compared to the Ponceau.

You look at all the limited entry units in Utah, Ponceau, Henry's, Book Cliffs, Oak Creek, Vernon. All of them were general season and had to be shut down because of either the tendency for the deer to not recruit heavily like super summer range units were and be able to keep up with the demands placed upon them by everybody pounding one, two-year-old bucks, you know. And they couldn't keep up. Either that. San Juan. Yeah. San Juan, Elk Ridge. Shut down. Every single one of them. Flat shut down. They had to flat shut them down because they were over hunted. And when they reopened, they've never went back to general because everybody likes what they see. They want something to aspire to, and they've left that way. So by accident, really by accident, they've been discovered. The Ponceau got by accident. It's got phenomenal genetics. We learned that after the fact.

I know they share them with Arizona on the winter range. There's nowhere like the Ponceau. If the Ponceau was managed like Arizona manages the strip, I mean, the Ponce, in my opinion, and of course, it's just one of these three opinions on the phone here. But, you know, would be the number one. Genetics, feed, everything. If it was managed. It's the same. It's the same as a kaibab. They mingle in the winter, and that blood's there. But anyway, kind of like what you described about that area near you. By accident, there's giant bucks there. You know what I mean? Right. Because they've had to be, you know, hunting precluded and all that. Yeah, I think these are just glaring examples of the idea that it just doesn't take anything super special. So it just takes the idea of limiting it and letting them get a hold of it. Old deer. And all that comes. You find deer that die of old age.

You know, if you've got a few of them, you're going to have the right deer. And so taking that to the, I guess, areas we can hunt, you know, there's areas, there's reasons why deer can escape. They can either be because, well, maybe the tag numbers are slightly lower than they could be, and they're under-harvesting them. Or you have units with excessive timber, and you have really warm years like we've had the last two years, Mike, with terrible hunts overall. You've got deer that are on the third and fourth season, Adam. You hunted a particular unit. It sucked, and I don't think it hurts to tell people what it was, but it won't. But anyway, you were hunting fourth season at 10,000 feet. Oh, we killed bucks at over 10,000 feet on fourth season. On fourth. And so that's what I'm saying, and that's Adam's point is here we are.

You've got bucks that sometimes don't come out of the timber during a state-given season, a normal season. Yeah. And so you have a scapement. You have a scapement. You're going to have age. Yeah, but it still does take luck, you know, for a deer to reach that magic age. And, you know, the giant non-typicals, I think, take generally more time to get truly big than, you know, typicals. You know, a lot of typicals will peak in their five to six year and maybe start throwing some trash or going down. But these giant non-typicals, generally the ones I've seen, they take, you know, they get at least eight or nine years old. Seven to nine. And, you know, like that buck that Brett Ross killed is, I don't know, the exact score was, you know, close to 300 inches. Let's just call it a 300-inch. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think we can call it a 300-incher.

My buddy had found that deer about three or four years before that. And I actually hunted him two years before Brett killed him and never did see him, of course. And my buddy saw him two years in a row in there. And it was in a spot that it was no wonder he got big and all. It was just as nasty of a place as you could conjure up. But it also had some protected winter range where he wouldn't have been visible to anybody. And I think that's important, too, because when you have those deer winter in a spot where nobody gets eyes on them, you know, you just might have that magic thing occur where, you know, a deer gets lucky. He's got the right genetic. Two or three more years. It's in the right standard timber. And some of that country is somewhat roadless, even though, you know, it feels like nothing's roadless anymore.

Some of that is fairly tough to access, you know, and just lets him get a little aged. Well, we've talked about archery a little bit. Tell us about your thoughts on the muzzle season. The muzzleloader is a tricky one because, you know, there's a lot of temptation to be up there in the alpine for obvious reasons in September. But those storms and the willows and the archery season rolls around or the muzzleloader season rolls around a little bit date-wise. And it's all set off, you know, a certain Saturday and after September 1st and all that. I think this year starts on the night that's the earliest it ever gets in 2018. Yes, and that's 8th, I think, yeah. 8th or 9th. Yep. Yep. So these alpine bucks, they'll be rubbing their velvet right about that opener.

So you could scout a deer for a week up until that opener, and for whatever reason, he might rub his velvet two days before the opener and he's gone. And that's just the nature of those kind of deer. They can be up there, and as soon as they rub their velvet, they can just drop down in timber. They might not be that far away, but hunting a deer in an alpine basin versus, you know, down in the timber are two different things. But, you know, that muzzleloader can be really good. I just feel like there's so many archery hunters out there right now, you know, guys that have just taken into the sport just for the sake of, you know, the equipment and it's fun. And, you know, you're always doing something, whether you're shooting grouse or stumps or something.

You know, people give them something to do and be busy, and I think it's a very appealing activity, you know, whether or not it's the best way to go about hunting. Well, weather's usually good. If you want to bring something home every year, that's different. But, you know, it's changed. And the number of people out there has really affected archery and muzzleloader success in my mind. Well, and I think, yeah, and I think, like, especially where you have over-the-counter archery tags, obviously these archery hunts have a set tag number. So it's not like there's really more hunters in the field, you know, for deer specifically, but obviously those are over-the-counter archery elk. But it is the demand, the increased demand on getting, let's say, 21 archery has 60 tags.

The increased demand of those 60 tags and the quality of hunter of those 60 tags has changed, and the quality of equipment. So those 60 guys are so much better equipped at killing big animals than they used to be. It's going to take seven or eight points. They're not shooting 20, 30 yards. They're shooting 80. And if it's taking seven to eight points to draw it, you're treating it a little bit different than it's just an over-the-counter archery deer hunt in Utah or somewhere else. I do feel like if you really wanted to kill a giant buck and you had the skills and you're willing to put the time in, I think archery is your best bet in Colorado. Yeah, scout your buck. Check out it and do it that way. And obviously I'm not doing it, so I'm not listening to my own advice.

But, you know, if a guy was really driven and wanted to do it, you know, this kid I know, Justin Davis, he's a firefighter in the department west of Denver, and he just killed a fantastic buck this year, biggest buck he'll probably ever kill by doing just that. How big was it? I was a mid-30s kind of buck. I don't know the score exactly, but the kind of deer that very few people would pass up anytime, anywhere. Wow. You know, and he did it the right way. He put in his time. He found one in the summer and made it happen. So that is probably the best way to kill a truly giant buck in Colorado is to be really good with a bow and put your time in and be able to pass animals up. But that's just, you know, you're going to see 50 deer smaller than that before you see that one giant. So as we move from the muzzle, you know, we kind of, you know, of course there's these high country rifle hunts,

and some of them, you know, kind of compete with the muzzleloader hunters just depending on the particular unit. Not really that special, in my opinion. But just wondering kind of what your thoughts are as we move into that second season, third season. They've never really intrigued me that much. So I know there's been just a handful of bucks, you know, really good deer killed on those hunts over the years. But, you know, I think for the most part they're token more than, you know, truly a tool for a guy to do well. And some of them have, I think, unrealistic restrictions placed on them, you know, an elevation zone in a unit. Yeah, above timberline. Yeah, and they're in units that really have very poor summer. You know, that hunt in 45, the high country buck hunt, you think, well, hell, it's right above 44. It must be really good.

Well, yeah, go up there in the rock pile and see how you do. Yeah, it's above timberline, but there's nothing to eat. If it was really good, they wouldn't let you do it. Nope. There's some tax that we can sell. I'm not a big fan of those, but, you know, to each of them. But it generates revenue, Mike. It just generates revenue. Yeah, it gets a few guys with a lot of points out of the pool. That's right. That's right. So when it comes to you, as Jason brought up, the second, third, maybe fourth, but you're predominantly, let's talk about, I guess, what you, how you evaluate your year. And what do you, how do you, how do you decide what season you want to personally go on? And obviously you live there. Resident drawing odds are a whole lot different than non-residents. In many cases, you can maybe get your tag every year, nearly every year.

So, but tell me, tell us how you view that first season, which is the October, you know. I love that. Right. I love that second season. It's our second rifle season, but it's the first deer season. Yes. Right. It's called the second combined season, I think is how they refer to it. Yeah. But that's the season I killed my biggest deer in. So, but. Which, which is, let's, let's just dive into that. Oh, well, he's, he was 38 and a half wide when I killed him. I think he's 38 and an eighth now, but he's got a 217 gross typical frame, gross non-typical with a couple cheaters is 221 and he nets 208 and an eighth typical. Yeah. It's just unbelievable for everybody that's listening. Anybody was at the expo or there's a picture of him on my Instagram page, Ridge Reaper 03.

Unbelievable deer. One of those kind of deer that, you know, of course, Adam and I will never kill a deer that big, but we're, we promise you'll hear about it if we do. It's one of those kind of deer. I don't know about that. It's one of those kind of deer. You know, you know, it's, it's not that it's just big. It's the fact the shape of it is just, uh, it's just astounding. I didn't grow them. I just shot them. I can't take any credit for that deer other than being smart enough to put a bullet into them when I, when I had the opportunity, but, uh, you know, he's, uh, an incredibly unusual animal antler configuration. I, Jason was joking with me out in Salt Lake. You know, if I had the taxidermist split the skull for me, cause he does, he looks like he's just flopped out there wide. Well, it's a set of replicas. It's a set of replicas.

And I'm like, well, you know, are you sure that's like legit? Because it just doesn't look right. Yeah. Did you think that? I don't think Colton Banks about that. He's the one that cast it. But yeah, it does. It, it, they, uh, they go out and it's like a, you know, how those big Alaska Yukon moose their, their antlers get so big and heavy. I think the, the main beams turned down a little bit and that's what this buck does. And I don't think it's from the weight. I think it's just the style of the antlers, but he turns down and flares out and his, and his forks are 15 inches deep front and back and, and they're splayed out really wide too. So all these factors of, you know, he's really just very appealing to the eye. And, and, uh, there's one thing that not many people know about him. The most astounding thing about that buck, get ready for this, is I had him tooth aged

at five and a half years old. There you go. I was going to ask you, cause you were saying typicals be four and a half to five netting over one 90 there in your state. So that kind of takes away from a little bit of my credibility since. Uh, this giant deer, he wasn't very old. So in theory, he wasn't very smart. So that means, uh, you know, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a, I just not a big, a big young, dumb one. So. Oh, no. If anybody that's followed you knows you killed too many to call it luck. So tell us a little bit about, let's just talk about that story a little bit and then we'll tie that into the second season and your thoughts behind it. But tell us, like, did you know about him before? I did not. And, you know, I, I got the flu basically a day or two. Well, probably the day before the season started. And, uh, I just was just in bad shape that morning.

I still drove, got up early and drove over there and I just did not have it in me. It was snowing lightly and, and I was, you know, a little bit of chills and just feeling pretty weak. And so I was literally glassing out my truck and saw some bull elk way up high in this little pocket. And so I was glassing these bull elk and right across my field of view in the spotting scope walks this deer and he's, he's in some brush and he comes out in the open. He's broadside. So I never did see how wide he was, but all I could see was these big black forks at about three miles away. And, and it seems like a long ways to look, but you know how it is. If you get quality glass and a rock solid rest in snow. Leupold wind rivers. Leupold wind rivers. Yeah. No, it's the big, the big dog, Swarovski HD. Yeah. And so I, I could, I could see he was a really good deer.

And of course he was dark antlered enough against the snow that it made him, you know, they usually look bigger and heavier that way too, but it was enough where, you know, I was just, I was stoked. All of a sudden you didn't have the flu anymore. All of a sudden. Yeah. Well, I thought I didn't, but I started hiking and literally, I got a quarter mile up this hill and I'm just, I'm spinning. My head is just like, I thought I was going to pass out. I'm weak. And I'm like, Oh, please God, let me get back to my truck. I promise not to go out. And I went home and I spent two days in bed. It was that bad. And that's after, well, I knew what I was looking at too. And it was the best deer I think I'd ever seen in the field. And so, you know, a few days later and we had got another snow storm right at that time. So there was a unique thing that happened that year in the second season.

That area got three small snow storms in that time period. It kept warming up, but you know, that. That those snows, even in late October, they get a deer thinking. They get a buck thinking and they, you know, relax them a little bit and they. Snow kills deer. They put them out and they start. There's no question. They poke around a little bit more. Breaking some brush here and there a little bit more. Yeah. So it was, it was a, this hike was a commitment getting up into the spot. So I ended up going up there, I think three times and saw those bulls again. I never saw that deer until the evening that I killed them. And I was still hunting along this, this edge and looking down into this little swale. And, and I saw this antler from behind a, a cedar. And, uh, it looked like one of those, you know, like the two and a half year old five point

rag horns where they got those whys on the back of their rack. And it had an unusual looking fork to it. And I thought, honestly thought it was an elk antler. So, but it was this 15 inch deep, big back fork on this buck. And, and he turned his head a little bit. I'm like, Oh my God, that's a, that's a buck. But he's bettered right in front of this cedar, uh, big trunk coming out of the base. And, and I couldn't get a shot at him where he's laying down there. And so I got all ready. And, you know, it's a afternoon, the sun's still out, the wind's in my face. It's coming uphill. Wow. And, uh, I'm less than a hundred yards, but the winds are my favorite. You're thinking about splitting his skull. Um, I'm thinking about it. It was, it literally was a really bad opportunity right there. I had him rock solid, but you know, I just didn't want to blow it.

I knew as soon as he stood up, I could, if I was patient, I'd just hammer him. So he finally, the sun dipped below the horizon and he stood up. And when he stood up out of his bed, he stood up right forward, just kind of get up one step forward where he was behind the tree completely. And, you know, at this point, this, uh, breeze is starting to switch where it's, instead of coming up in my face with the warm light hitting me, it's starting to switch directions, go downhill. Well, he was across the hill just enough where he couldn't smell me, but I could feel the breeze on the back of my neck. And fortunately he started feeding out across to the right and kind of went down in a little swale. And it was all open across this little swale in the brush. And I thought, well, for sure, I'm going to just, you know, be patient and you're going to get a shot.

And finally he comes out and he's right in the belly of this little draw. And, uh, he, uh, he stops and he's got his head up and I've got my scope on him. And it wasn't like I even thought about it. All of a sudden I might, the trigger just goes off and I shot him. Wow. And, uh, and that was it. And I, you know, I honestly thought he was about 33 or 34 inches wide and I got down there and this antler sticking up out of the brush and I just, it blew me away. Yeah. So. Unbelievable. I think I was, I'll have to look, but I think that year I was hunting 44 second. I think, um, I can't remember for sure, but it was, we had snow. I had snow and it was unbelievable. And I, I passed a deer I shouldn't have, but that was kind of my point. What I wanted to kind of get out of this is some years it is hard to beat the second, even though it's early. And then, yeah, you get, you get to go first.

You're the first rifle. Brian, Brian LaTurner from, uh, from, uh, what is it? The mule deer website. Yeah. Monster mule is. Yeah. He's made a science of hunting the second season. He knows he can always get a landowner voucher and sure. And he's hit it pretty hard that way. And he's hasn't killed a deer every year, but he's killed some really good ones in the second season because he's always willing to go. And, and I guess kind of my point is that that deer, I would have never gotten him if I wasn't putting the time in and you got to put the time in to get those kinds of animals. And being out there is, is half the battle. It allows it to come together. You gotta be out there. And you can go second season for non-residents may not be as, as big a disparity for a resident, but non-residents can go a lot more often, a lot less points. Yeah.

Even, even second choice and still gain a point, you know? Yeah. And there's something I've espoused in the, some of my articles I've written is the idea of, you know, how easy elk tags are to get in the state. And, you know, you may not want to get a bull tag, but if you got a cow tag, I think they're 250 bucks or something like that for a non-resident. Sure. And you go learn a unit and, you know, you get a cow and you get, you know, a couple hundred pounds of some fantastic game meat, but you're also learning what it takes to hunt that unit that you want to draw. Yeah. And I think people are foolish for sitting on the sidelines, just stacking points up and not learning a unit by something as simple as going cow elk hunting in it. Yeah. Well, I think you're exactly right. And this, this year, it looks like the dates are going to be October 20th to the 28th.

But tell us, I mean, you know, we've, of course, we've hunted the third a lot and I know you have as well. Just your kind of opinion on that November 3rd hunt, November 3rd to the 11th. Yeah. It's really weather dependent. You know, if you get that one storm, it makes all the difference in the world. I had a third season tag this fall and had one storm. I think there's a small storm, I think on opening day, maybe in the second day I was out there and glassed up a big buck a couple miles off in a quakey patch on the second morning because there was a little bit of snow to give that relief against the trees and, and watched him. And I knew there was no way I could make a play, but spent the rest of the hunt trying to, to get a glimpse of him again. I never did see him again because it warmed up and you couldn't see into the trees.

And, you know, trying to glass into aspen trees with even a skiff of snow versus no snow, it's just a world of difference. It is. And so, you know, the mule deer have everything they need in aspen. So, I mean, they do not have to leave it. There's always going to be water. I was hunting the fourth one year, of course, you know, at Piney Valley, we used to spend some time on their place back when Garth would get a tag and whatnot. And I mean, I didn't even know what they ate. The leaves were off, nothing. It felt like there was no food. There was bark and snow and the deer love it. They freaking live in it. I think it's partly they, you know, in the summer, there is a canopy in those things. And that the leaf canopy in aspen allows a lot of understory. If you don't have too many conifers in there, a lot of understory to grow grass for, everything, snowberry, all that.

So even though it doesn't look like there's stuff to eat. Yeah. And they just, I think they just live there because of that security. It's shady and it's a green productive understory. And then when the leaves fall off, it's not like they just don't like this place. I think they still feel that security because they've lived there all year. If you went and sat in an aspen forest and you're looking out over at the cross at the opposite hill, you can't see it very well because of all the trees around you. And so, you know, I know the deer, they think we can't see them in there. So that's a big advantage to a hunter is knowing that we can see in with snow, but they think we can't see them. So they're very active during the day in the Quakies and they're always goofing off, moving around. And you can't just bed a buck in the Quakies and think he's going to stay there all day either.

He's going to be up two or three times during the day and goofing off and moving around. So, you know, if you spot one and bed him down and try to make a play and you don't get there within a couple hours, he's not going to be there. He'll get up to another spot that's shadier or cooler. And if there's little blue spruces, little groups of blue spruce, they really like to bed in those things that are, you know, in the middle of the Quakie patches. So it's a pretty good spot to be looking. So as we talk about this last season, at least on the West Slope, you know, is that fourth season, five-day season, November 14th to the 18th. And just, you know, our thoughts have always been, and of course we like the fourth at times. It's nice, you know, if it hits just right. But, you know, we were hunting it one year and you end up with three days of blizzard. You know what I mean?

I mean, it's not a long enough span to really, you know. One storm can really mess you up as far as, I mean, it could be super helpful, but it also could, you know, take away two to three days of hunting and you, you know, when you have, you know, 15, 20 points invested into a tag and you can only hunt two days. That's a, it's a, it's a crazy short season at times of, you know, for elk, it's not as, as critical. But for deer, you could really mess you up. And, you know, I've helped a couple of guys out with their four season tags. And it's, it's weird because, you know, you feel like you just got, you know, a sand hourglass and you're watching this thing just slip away in your hands. And, you know, every, every day, you know, the first morning, well, the season's a 10% over. Well, by that night it's 20% over. By the next morning it's 30% over. It just goes so fast.

And so if you're not prepared and, and you don't have your homework done, it, you know, five days isn't enough just to show up and think you're going to make it happen. And you add poor weather or in this case, like no weather, no storms right prior to it. And you're just hunting deer that essentially got done getting crushed during a third season by over the counter elk hunters and much more liberal deer hunting pressure in terms of tags. And, and that's been the case the last couple of years. It's been almost a bust on four season hunts. Yeah, it has. I want to talk a little bit about what we talked about. Just, we've talked about it. You and I have, of course, just here and there, but about your dedication to stuff that's close to home and really focus. And what I'm finding with these, you know, I was visiting with this Chad Roberts, super

good guy that killed that 295 incher in Arizona. Sure. Spent a lot of time with him and we're going to have him on a podcast next week. But is what I find, you know, similar about all these guys that are, you know, killing these giant bucks or giant bulls or rams or whatever is they have a laser focus on specific animals or specific areas. And I feel like that's with you. Like you mentioned earlier, I know you've hunted region H a few times, but then it feels like you've really honed it in and just brought it home and, and trying to make the most out of your, your home area. I just want you to just touch on that a little bit and your thoughts behind it. There's very few guys that I think can go and do multiple hunts and be successful. I'm not saying it can't be done. And you see guys that are able to do it at times, but if they're, you know, you see a

guy that go kill four bucks in four states, well, he might kill one good buck and then he's got a handful of three-year-olds to go along with him. They might, you know, be 24, 25 inches wide, but, you know, there's still deer that in my mind and, you know, probably yours and Adam's that should be living another two or three years. And, and, and so, you know, that's, that's not, uh, it's not about quantity. It's about quality. And so for me, I found that if I was going to, you know, everything I want is in my backyard for the most part. And, you know, I was really disheartened by the amount of pressure region H had when I went up there. I was, uh, seemed like there was guys backpacked into every basin and, you know, there's, you know, good bucks, of course, but, you know, it, it just, the amount of pressure affects people.

And so, you know, trying to get things dialed in and, and where you feel like you are hunting smart, not just, uh, stumbling around the woods with a rifle and there's a purpose to what you're doing and, you know, plan. And, and so, you know, there's that. And, you know, also the idea of, uh, you know, passing animals up and, and hunting for, or, you know, I, I just, I'm at the point in my life where I just, uh, I don't need to kill something every time. It's got to, you know, it's got to work for me. And yeah, I killed an old buck this year. That was the worst scoring buck I've killed since the nineties. But, you know, I was looking at him, it's Friday and he's an old buck with big bases. And I'm like, you know what? He's an old man. And I liked that buck. And, and that was it, you know, and I made it happen.

But, you know, it's because, you know, I've become familiar with the spots where I'm hunting, if I can get a tag and, and, uh, you know, it's, it's comforting to know that you're hunting the same area and you learn how to do it. And there's purpose and, and a plan and, and all that that goes along with it. You know, I enjoy it more than, than the idea of just blindly going around all over the West with, you know, the hopes of just trying to find a deer, you know, it's, it's a, it's a tough thing. So you guys do a good job. And, but I, you know, I, I realize you've also got, you know, a support group of guys that can help you out and go along with you. And it's not quite often not going off by yourself. So it's a different dynamic. Speaking of that, uh, this new age of deer hunting and, and making the most of some of

these opportunities that seem to, you know, not come around very often and whatnot, but in this information age and, uh, and whatnot, of course, social media and all this crazy, these crazy times that we're in and, uh, trying to raise big bucks at the same time. Like, what do you think the future of mule deer hunting holds versus the information age? Like, and the way it's gone compared to the way it once was. It's a completely change. It will never be the same. And, you know, good or bad, there's, there's some wonderful things about social media. There's people in my life I would have never kept in touch with or kept track of if it wasn't for social media. It's really neat to be able to see people from your past and where they're at and what they're doing today. Um, I think there's for, for hunters, there's just the information sharing is just massive

out there and there's really no secrets. I mean, if, if you guys have a secret of, well, more power to you, but I think we could all just sit in a room quietly talking and we'd all be nodding our heads. Oh yeah. Yeah. That spot. Yeah. That, that area, that unit, there's, there's really no secrets out there. You know, it's just, it, the information age is already passed. And so, um, you know, there's, I think with, uh, the way Utah's, uh, tag allocations went and it kind of generated that, uh, for lack of a better term, the posse hunt where you had a bunch of people showing up and, and so I, you know, I can understand how some people would be put off with it, but there's also, you know, you talk about people who are friends and family and a rare opportunity and people want to be a part of it and share the enjoyment of it.

Well, they want to put their hands on something big and when tags take 15 years or 20 years to draw, it's, it's changed. It's changed. Well, and it, it, it, you, you brought up Utah and I, I would definitely agree that I think that's where we've seen it maybe spawned. And it, I think it's because we, we were for a lot of years behind Colorado in terms of the way we decided we wanted to manage our deer. We didn't go to unit by unit management until a handful of years ago on our general season units. And so we were wanting so much more out of every deer hunt we got to go on, whether it was something we drew or a family member or friend drew on a limited entry unit. We wanted to go be a part of an awesome deer hunt. And frankly, that's why you in Colorado have dealt with a lot of people from Utah for the last 15 years coming over there.

We wanted something more and we're finally feels like starting to get our general season units. There's no question right now, the last few years are better than, than they've been in 20 years. Which is, which helps Colorado. And it's not that there's, and it's not that there's, and it's not that there's, the guys are pulling out of there. Yeah, and it's not that there's more tags given in Colorado. There's a finite number of tags, but I think it goes back to the demand for those tags and the quality of hunter that's picking up those tags, whether it be landowner tags or the draw tags or whatnot. And that is changing. You're seeing more Utah guys, well, they're going to be taken up by somebody. I mean, they don't just, you know what I mean? They're going to divvy out the tags, but it's a different type of hunter. It's a different type of hunter. Well, yeah, there is.

You know, from the outside looking in, what I saw in Utah, the evolution of the whole thing was, you know, there's always a very familial aspect to hunting where, you know, families would go hunt together. And so, you know, it got restricted. So, well, if one person got a tag, the family's still going and we're going to go have fun and do it. So, you know, I appreciate that. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think, you know, we could all pick out examples where, you know, some guy put his grandma in for a tag who's never hunted in her life. And all of a sudden she's, you know, got the best elk tag in the state. But, you know, those are, you know, more rare than typical for, you know, just anybody drawing a tag. And so in Colorado, it's been an evolution too for guys in the state to just come to terms with people understanding what's here.

And it's, you know, Coloradans don't own Colorado. There's federal land that we all own and we're all U.S. citizens. And this is, you know, these are animals that everybody's a part of. So, you know, it's a, I get that there's some territorialism and as a younger man, I experienced some of it too. But, you know, I think as we all get older, we kind of understand what's important. And to me, sharing that experience with friends or family is far more valuable than any set handlers that I have hanging on the wall. For me, it's really about the experiences at this point in my life and making memories. And to do, to make a memory with a 38 and a half inch ain't so bad either. No. Yeah. Unfortunately, I was by myself. Yeah.

Well, you're just glad it wasn't so long ago that, you know, they didn't have self-timer cameras or whatever else you were able to use, you know, since it was. Well, you know, actually, I. 35 millimeter. I don't know. Was that even. What year was that? It was right on the edge of the digital age right there. Yeah. In 2006. So I still was shooting a 35 millimeter slide. Oh, wow. Camera. And I shot. And, you know, you guys have seen the field photo. It's kind of dark. And it was darker than it looked in that picture. And I shot about 10 or 12 self-time shots. And that literally was the only one that came out. Oh, wow. With any degree of sharp. Yeah. Now you shoot a couple hundred of them in five minutes. Well, and you can look at the viewfinder and see if it's taking a good picture. I remember those days. Right.

I couldn't even tell if it was taking a picture and you're just praying that there's something. And to roll up and pray when you dropped it off at Walmart. Yeah. Exactly. Let's talk about, as we wrap up the mule deer section of this podcast, let's just talk, you know, tell us about this book. Tell us about the edge a little bit. You know, your involvement with it. And what it's going to tell us in there. Well, David started this project on his own. David Long. Yeah. He called me. David Long, yes. And he started this project on his own. He called me up last year and he said, listen, I'm. I'm having trouble getting this thing done. And I was wondering if you'd be interested in being a part of it. And, you know, we talked about the kind of thing. And so, you know, the more we talked, the more I thought it was a good idea because,

you know, David really spent a lot of his time hunting early high country Wyoming deer. And then he did some archery stuff here in Colorado. So much of his focus in his hunting world had always been early and high. And a lot of my stuff was labor and low and mid, mid, mid country transition zones and lower stuff. And so I felt like we could offer something, a product that not many people have seen. And, you know, we weren't going to replicate what somebody else has done. And I think the collaboration of two guys that have the experience and the pelts on the wall that we do is really something that's pretty rare. And so we talked about it and I just jumped into it last winter with them and started pumping some stuff out. And we got it published. You know, it was just one of those things that, you know, real life, real jobs, you know, both of us have them.

And so trying to get things done on deadlines was, you know, we got it, I think, finally got it from the printer in November. And we had goals of getting it in mid summer, but it just didn't work, you know. So it was a little late for this year's hunting season and show season. And so we're going to put it, start pushing it a little harder next summer. But, you know, I think it really does, there's some great stories in there and anecdotes of, you know, the success and also the failures that we've both experienced. You know, as you guys know, there's as much to be learned from a failure as there is as far as an interaction with a big deer or whatever. And if you learn from your failures, you can apply those in the future and really learn from them. And I think, you know, so much of what today is, it's a thinking man's game, this mule deer hunting.

It's a, you know, as we all get older, there's a group of young guys out there in their 20s that make them walk us into the dirt. Oh, no question. But there's an advantage of, we have them. We've been doing this stuff for 20 to 30 years. They're still hunting those low pinion junipers where the pink sheds are, Mike. That's all. Just doing what we did, buddy. I walked in circles and walked in circles and tracked bucks down aimlessly, just didn't know what I was learning. Didn't know what I was learning. And, you know, I think you've got to do that for 5 to 10 to 15 years, you know. Right. Some people learn a little faster than others. It took me a while. And, you know, that's one, it's almost not fair for, you know, a guy to be able to get a book like this that David and I have put out because it really shortens the learning curve.

If you're paying attention and you're willing to do some of the stuff there, you know, you do have a way of shortcutting some of this learning curve. But I will say that it's as tough as it's ever been and it's going to get tougher because of the level of competition out there of the type of hunter that has evolved. Being fit has become, you know, a standard approach many guys have, you know. And that's great. I think guys should be, you know, they should be able to handle it. And, you know, I think you've got to be able to go every day. You do. You do. And that's where, that's the difference right there. And, you know, as you get older, you develop this sense of resiliency where you can push past some of those barriers that, you know, might have kept you in camp 20 years ago. Sure. You know, not to blow yourself out on day one.

And there's just some things that, you know, you rest when your body's telling you to rest. But you keep going and you keep spending the time out there. And so there's, you know, it's a tough thing for a young man right now to be coming into this mule deer hunting world and really have the wants and desires to get some. But it's as tough as it's ever been. It's not going to get easier. So whatever you could do to separate yourself by learning more skills and getting tips from guys that have seen it and done it, it's a pretty handy thing to do. And so this book, I think, gives people, you know, a jump on some of that natural learning curve that would occur over two decades. Well, so I guess, yeah. So at some point you said this summer you're going to, that'll be much more readily available. You'll do a push. Well, it's available. It's, you know, on the muledeerhunter.com website.

It's in the store. So it's certainly available. But it's, you know, we haven't gone to any shows to try to sell books and, you know, get out in there and shake hands and trade viruses with people and that kind of thing.

So anyway, you're Consumer Direct. You're basically the mule deerhunter.com, did you say? Or org. Yes. Yeah, mule deerhunter.com. Mule deerhunter.com. All right. Yep. Yep. And so it's, you know, when you've got a real job that, you know, puts a check in your bank account every week, there's a little less motivation to, work on the stuff. Yeah, that isn't really paying your bills. What about, what's next? I mean, you alluded to retirement here in the next handful of years. Yeah. And I guess before we switch to some of the other species, when it comes to mule deer, we know you've killed some giant bucks. And, but what, is there something, what do you want to check off a list? Or is there just more? I need a 40-inch four-point. So one and a half inch wider than what you've got, I guess. Jason needs a big typical like mine. I need a big non-typical like his. Okay.

I mean, that's certainly the bucket list animal. Those just. Like a book? Are you an official scorer for Ben and Crosby? Yes, I am. Okay. And so is it like your goal? Is it a net book non-typical or is it? Oh, no. It's just big and ugly. Big and ugly. Yeah. All right. Yeah. To me, at this point, you know, and it's hard to get big and ugly, you know, or not be big and ugly if you're 260 or 70 inches. So, you know, they kind of go hand in hand right there. But, you know, age trumps everything. Mass is number two. And then, you know, score is number three. So, you know, I think we all would agree that the most impressive thing is mass on animals. And multiple eye guards. Freaky eye guards. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The Christmas tree. Jason and I both have eye guard fetishes. We do. We do. Oh, me too. And I. Me too. I think Steve Alderman had that buck that he had on his.

Oh, he killed it somewhere up there and it had a couple of extra brow tines. I'm just, I couldn't care less what the rest of the deer look like. And he teases me. He's like, I know Carter likes some big brow tines. But, you know, he's got that too. He just can't admit it now. You know. Yeah. That other buck that Brian Letourner from the website killed. And he's got one of those bucks that's just the crazy big brow tine stuff. And burly knobby bases. That's just obscene stuff right there. I absolutely, that's my favorite thing. My net book typical, it's got four and a half inch eye guards. And they're like two inches across, you know. And it's just. I wish I had four of them. I mean. If you had two inch eye guards. That's the other thing. We could go into a whole podcast since you're a scorer now. Like as far as, you know, what eye guards mean on typical score, you know.

And how hard it is to net a book typical without eye guards. I mean, that's a. It is really hard. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, we had one that we hunted back. I think it was 2004. This is kind of a funny story. You'll get a kick out of this. So I'm going to call him out by name. And it's okay because he'll appreciate it. But my buddy Dave Martinez, I've known him since I first moved to Colorado. Super good guy. He's an electrician. He's wired the houses I've built. And so I wanted, I really wanted Dave to get a good buck. And so we hiked into this area. Me and my buddy Barrett and Dave. And we spotted this buck and he was skanking down this canyon at first light. And he went into this quakey patch and bedded down. And so I told Dave, I said, you know, I've killed a couple of nice bucks in the last couple of years. And I don't really want to shoot this deer.

And he's a solid 190 buck without eye guards. And 28 inches wide. Just, you know, the kind that, you know. Beautiful deer. It's really hard to pass him up. And if you pass him up, he might not shoot another one. And so Dave's like, yeah, yeah, I'm good. I want to get him. And so I said, well, I can make a big circle around him and come in from the backside. I swear to God, he'll come right across his draw and through this saddle right here in front of us. The path of least resistance. That buck will go right through there. So hour and a half later, I'm coming around the backside of this quakey patch. I bumped this buck out. And he just, almost like on a string, I told him what to do. And he goes right past Dave. Dave's sitting in the sagebrush. And the buck goes 75 yards below him. And just, he trotted and stopped and looked back and trotted again.

And I'm like, I'm waiting for it to happen. And the buck just goes over the saddle. I'm like, and I remember actually at one point I was yelling at him, he's right in front of you. And a half a mile away, I'm yelling at him. And he's not doing anything. I'm like, what in the world is he doing? And so I get up there. I'm like, why didn't you shoot him? He goes, well, you didn't want to shoot him. And Barrett didn't want to shoot him. So I don't want to shoot him. I probably shouldn't shoot him either. Oh. So much for sure. But it was one of those classic bucks that, it was a Boone and Crockett buck without brow time. Wow. They make a few. I'm sure there's a lot of people listening that said, I would have shot him. Take knee, please. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, cool. Is there anything else? I mean, I don't want to really dive into the sheep and moose on this one because this

mule deer has been so amazing and it's taken a lot of time. I want to do a whole other podcast on that because I know, and I guess we can kind of preface that, you've really gotten into these moose and sheep and been a part of some of the most amazing animals coming out of the state of Colorado. I don't know if your love of mule deer is waning a little or if you're actually just taking on more species or whatever. No, it's not waning, but the hunting just isn't as good ever since 2007, 2008 winter. I mean, the Boone and Crockett entries don't lie. I mean, people probably have more of a propensity to enter a buck in the book than they ever have. Yeah, you're right. It's easier to do. There's more people measuring. So the idea of people killing a few deer and not entering them, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I'm sure it happens to a few, but it's just not happening.

So when you don't see the numbers there, the Boone and Crockett barometer is, you know, Boone and Crockett bucks make up a small percentage of the actual mature bucks harvested. And so when there's less Boone and Crockett deer, there's less big bucks being harvested too. So, you know, that to me reflects on the overall quality of hunting. We all know there's still big bucks in just about every unit in the west slope of Colorado, but, you know, they're harder to get, harder to find. The opportunities are, you know, tags are harder to draw, and it's just a tough deal. And it's really interesting how these seasons keep shaping up too. And, you know, global warming is an entirely different subject, but there's something really weird about these t-shirt weather hunting seasons keep happening here in the west. And then we have brutal winters too.

Yeah, and I teased about the global warming early on, but it's like something is changing. I don't know what it is. Right. Call Uncle Al. Yeah, so there's something to it. And so, you know, accepting the fact that, you know, without weather, the hunting can be really tough for big mule deer. Yeah. It's just the nature of the beast. And, you know, what's interesting is what you guys have probably experienced too is down there in the Pontsagont, you'll have deer seasonally move. They'll shift out of one range to the other just based on the time of the year. It's not a storm or anything. It's a calendar. And then here, it's a calendar. And here in Colorado, you could have deer at 10,000 feet at Thanksgiving. Yep. It doesn't snow. They're not going anywhere. Yeah. Nope. That's right. Nope. Just real quick, one last subject, and we'll have covered your entire state.

Well, let's just tell us a little bit about the Eastern Plains, you know, and kind of your experience out there. It feels like, obviously, it's a lot of private. The majority of it's private. We've seen giants. You and I, everybody knows that there's that potential out there, and it kind of depends a lot upon the management of a particular ranch and whatnot. But, you know, tell us a little bit about your feelings, you know, towards the Eastern Plains. I'm very familiar with the Eastern Plains, partially because a good friend of mine is Aaron Nielsen. I've known Aaron for 20 years, and he's outfitted out there on the Eastern Plains. And, you know, we've talked extensively about the bucks out there. Sure. The one thing, the Eastern Plains can produce really big deer, but not high Boone and Crockett net scoring deer.

So they typically can be nice big typicals with a short fork or no brow tines or missing a brow tie and extra points. Yeah. And, you know, they're gross scoring, you know, 200 plus deer, but very few of them net Boone and Crockett. And the ones that do are usually non-typicals. So another thing to go along with that is assuming that most of the hunting out there, the quality is going to be leased up by outfitters. And the idea of if you think you're going to knock on doors and get access to some untapped big mule deer hunting, it's a fantasy. I mean, it's generally just not going to happen. So if you're serious about hunting the Eastern Plains, you just need to start looking at outfitters and see what and where. Yeah. And so, you know, along with that, you know, everybody wants a 190 to 200 inch deer when they hunt out east.

So for every 190 inch deer, there's a bunch of other 175 bucks that clients take. Sure. And so are you going to be the guy that kills the 190 or the 175? Well, that's, there's dumb luck right there. And so understanding you're not going to kill a giant just because you hunt with an outfitter that kills giants. And it's just, there's luck involved and just like anything. But it, but it is a good way for a guy with a, without the physical abilities to kill a really nice deer. Hunt some good bucks. Some great bucks. Yeah. Well, what I also, what I also heard you say is, is maybe not as great a chance to kill a book typical, but, but the book deer have been non-typical. So maybe you ought to focus your efforts out there, Mike, and talk with Jason and I about where you're killing these giant typicals. Mike, I want to hunt the west side where the big typicals are. Yeah, we'll stay out there.

You hunt the Eastern Plains. Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, all my extra money is on towards the stone sheep. Okay. All right. I'll just try to, I was going to, I was going to just meet in the middle there. Well, and I, and I remember that Rod Linston and Ralph Holsklawn, they killed their, but Oh, sure. You know, those guys killed bucks that I was like, I need to go out on the Eastern Plains, you know? Yeah. And, you know, Rod's a, I know a friend of mine, Jeff Domoski, knows Rod. And so I've heard, you know, Rod just didn't do it one year. Oh, I know. He's spent a heck of a lot of time out there. He made an art out of doing it. Yep. Yep. Yeah. And so he's well connected with locals and has access to places that he, and he drives around all summer long looking for big deer. And so there's, you know, even in a situation like that, he's putting effort in that most people could.

Just like, you know, what, what I do in Nevada, what you're doing in your country, what Bronson's doing. I mean, that's what you're finding, you know, um, the guys in Arizona, all these guys. Yep. My buddy Eric Hunt down there in Arizona, he, he's always hunting really good bucks archery hunting. Yeah. Yeah. Not because it's a special spot. It's because he puts a time, learns a heck of a lot of time into it. And I think that's like kind of the resounding, you know, what the takeaway from this podcast again. And we've, we've talked about it a lot on prior podcasts, but it's, you know, obviously you've got to hunt where big deer are. So you've got to put the time where big deer are and, and, and that's obvious. But I think the biggest thing is time. You can read a book, you can, you can look at our magazine that we publish each month and you can do all of these things.

But at some point, you know, you do have to, you do have to leave the house for an extensive period of time and be a hundred percent dedicated to it or just rely on the rut and getting lucky and that, and that happens too. It's hard to have time. I mean, it's, you know, the reality of, of, uh, the world and kids and family and, you know, it's, you can't dedicate so much time that, you know, you lose your family along the way. There's guys that do that, dude. That's just crazy. And so for me, I'm super fortunate to have been hired on as a firefighter and, you know, but, you know, I'm not saying that to brag. I'm saying that, that that has a lot to do with my success and it has to do with the fact that I have time off and extended blocks. And same thing with Eric Hunt. We've, you know, Eric's a good buddy of mine and he's the same way. He's got time off to, to go do this kind of stuff.

And there's no substitute for time. And, you know, I, I would say if, uh, any young aspiring, uh, mule deer hunters, uh, try to get hired on a fire department. The key to the kingdom right there. Firefighters kill big bucks. That's what I'm hearing. That's what I'm hearing. Well, and it's, it's, it's a... Dave Stainer did it, you know? Oh, he did. Yeah. Jeez. We might have to just podcast about... Yeah. We might just do firefighter podcasts. Yeah. There you go. No, it's true. And that's the way Bronson and I are too. We work dang hard this time of year. Of course, you know, our magazine, we did monthly from December through June. And then bi-monthly in the fall when there's not a lot of statistics, you know, we're, we're just not willing to give up that time. We've got to be in the field. And so, you know, that's a, that's a, that's our success is reliant on time. So... Yeah. Yeah.

And it, you know, as far as Colorado, it's just, you know, there's always an evolution of what's going on. You know, this is a, nothing static. It's dynamic. You know, the, the weather changes, the hurts change, the pressure changes, the rules change. You know, there's new rules this year where we're going to, you know, it's going to make it, I think, easier for people to apply. And I think you're going to see more applications. And, you know, this pop, the population in this state has just exploded. You know, I moved here in 88. I think there was a million and a half then, and there's over 3 million now. They all want to smoke dope legally, Mike. They all want to smoke dope legally. Yep. Yep. Not for three and a half years, though. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, we appreciate your time. And like Jason alluded, Mike, there's so much more we could talk with you about in terms of, you know, the sheep and moose and, and, and anything else. Yeah. Your personal sheep hunting, not just stuff you've, you've done and dug up for clients and friends there in Colorado, but yeah, aspirations, you're still on sheep and all the other stuff. We can, let's, let's plan on doing this again soon because. Yeah. Yeah. We want to dive into a whole nother, whole nother facet of your life and what you're, what you've got going on that. It's like, cause I know you've been a part of some amazing critters. For Adam, I know, uh, I think he said he didn't really care about hunting Shire or smooth. I either read it or he told me. He probably read it. I have max points. I got to tell you, man, that, that hunting those big bulls and that is one of the coolest

things I've ever done. I, I could, I could do that every year. I'm not kidding you. It's. And, and Jason, I talk about things like that a lot around the office of species like that. Antelope might fall into that same category. And then all of a sudden out of complete nowhere, I drew an Arizona unit 10 antelope tag in 2016. And they aren't the most important things to me, but all of a sudden, you gain a respect for them. Wow. And I go down there and look around. I'm like, I've got the chance to kill a really pretty good one without really knowing. I don't, I'm not an antelope guru. And anything that is big, anything, whether it be Shire or Moose. Yeah. Giant caribou. I happen to live in some of the best Shire or Moose hunting in the world right now. So it's handy right there. And you dropped me, yeah, you dropped me a picture here and there.

And I'm like, even though, again, you know, I've killed one in Idaho and it wasn't a great one. I was trying to get, Adam and I, Adam was with me actually. And we were trying to get to Arizona to kill a big deer. And so we couldn't get out of there fast enough. Didn't give it the time it needed. But you do gain a respect for them. You dropped me a picture here and there. And I'm like, ooh, that's a pretty good bull. Yeah. It does get you excited for a minute. Anything old and big, whatever species can get your attention. And things aren't afraid of anybody. You know, down here, they've never experienced wolves or grizzlies. So they're literally not afraid of anything. So I've had my stuff scared pretty bad by Moose. I've been out there goofing off. And those cows in the spring are just absolutely terrifying to me. I just don't want anything to do with them.

Well, picture a little 5'6 feller then instead of a 6'8". Yes, picture a 6'0 versus a 6'8". You know, we feel pretty small out there. Yeah, exactly. All right, Mike. Well, we sure appreciate you on this. We do want to, you know, cover the sheep and moose with you. And you've got a whole other side to you. Yeah, we've got to cover these over-the-counter bulls in Colorado. Oh, that's another one. Yeah, and you've been knocking giants down doing that too. Yeah. I think that's a testament to what we were talking about earlier is really, you know, excelling in what's close to you, you know, and just bringing it home versus being scattered across all the way. I have a tendency. I want to hunt every state and do this and do that. And I have killed some good bucks across the West and been fortunate that way. But there is something to be said for really doing, you know,

excelling to wherever you're at. Yep, knowledge and being able to put the time in. Those are, you know, to me I'd take those over a special tag because that's just a different deal. Well, most special tags. I'd still take an Arizona strip tag. And we'd form a posse. Yeah, we would. Yes, we would. We'd go down there and you'd kill your book non-typical maybe. There you go. So anything else you want to kind of drop, any info or anything fun for the listeners to hear? You know, I just say for people who want to hunt big mule deer, it's like be realistic. You're going to have to put in your time and be lucky. So, you know, it's just not an easy thing. You know, there's a reason why it's so special when you do get one. When you walk up to one of those big old stinky books in November and, you know, you touch them for the first time and run your hands down his hair and grab those knobby bases,

it's a feeling that is just incredible. And when you've put in that time, when you've really applied yourself for years and years, and I did, and it finally happens, I mean, it gives me goosebumps right now just talking about it. It's just so special. So I'd say just don't give up and keep making the effort. And hopefully the people that really want it, it'll happen for them. Well, we sure appreciate it, Mike. Just want to let everybody know we are crunching data for the Colorado issue, which is our March magazine. It'll cover all the, you know, some of the, you know, good portion of the mule deer units, as well as elk, sheep, moose, and goat, and antelope and whatnot. So, anyway, that will be coming out soon. Adam and I are working early morning, and, of course, today's the Arizona elk deadline. So, you know, we'll have a lot of that we're doing today as well.

But, anyway, it'll be coming out soon. And then if you have any other questions regarding any state applications or strategies or whatnot, feel free to call us here at Epic. Want to thank Under Armour for sponsoring this podcast and all that they're doing for us here at Epic Outdoors.

And we'll kind of go from there. Thanks again, Mike. You're awesome. Appreciate it, Mike. Yeah, thanks for making it. You're very welcome. Thanks for having me. We've enjoyed watching your success over the years. And so we know it's going to continue, and we'll have you on here shortly. Soon. Yeah, let's talk sheep, moose, elk soon. So thanks a lot. All right. Thanks, Mike. For those of you that are interested in The Edge, the book published by David Long and Mike Duplan, go to themuldeerhunter.com. themuldeerhunter.com. I believe it's $29.95 or $30. And they'll ship direct right to your house. So, anyway, I'm sure it's a great read. I have yet to get my hands on a copy, but I'll definitely be ordering one. Just want to encourage anybody who wants to learn more about mule deer. Nothing better than having a lot of information dropped in one book. themuldeerhunter.com. $30.