EP 8: Hunting New Mexico, in Depth with GT Nunn

We definitely did see a change in drawing odds. 6% of the tags go to non-residents who apply without an outfitter. You're dealing with units that are 11,000, 12,000 feet. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, it's Jason Carter and Adam Bronson here with the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. We appreciate them and their support of Epic Outdoors, the podcast and different projects we've done with them. Today we've got a special guest on the line. We've got GT Nunn of Frontier Outfitters. How are you, GT? Doing good, you guys? We're doing good. Yeah, so anyway, we've known GT for years and years. He's one of the premier outfitters in New Mexico. Guided all kinds of different species and just really happy to have him on the line. Give us a little insight into New Mexico, his guide business, a little bit of his history and all kinds of different things that he's into. So anyway, as we get started, maybe GT, could you give us a little of your background?

You know, how you came to, you know, start working in the hunting industry and being raised in hunting and just the different things that has brought you to this point in life. Sure. Well, I started in the outfitting industry at a pretty young age. I was around it growing up. Got into high school and, you know, had a set of wheels, lucky enough. So I had an outfitter that hired me to pick up hunters at the airport on a Friday afternoon and drive them to camp and spend the weekend hunting with them. Hopefully get snowed in so I wouldn't make it back to school on Monday, but not always. Yeah. But that was my start. You know, went to college for a couple of years and out of college started guiding full time. So got into that, worked for several of the older outfitters in the Gila, learned a ton from them.

And as they started to retire and get out of the business, I just kind of made the choice to go into business with myself as opposed to, you know, look for someone else to work for. And it's been great, probably going on about 15 years now. And, you know, thanks to guys like Adam and Jason, they helped me get a start and have been with me since the beginning. So it's been a good run. You bet. And so it seems like, you know, years ago I met you in the field, but, you know, it seems like, you know, you're doing elk, you hunt heavy in 17 and all that different stuff. And then now you've branched out to be the number one guide in sheep and just doing a lot of different things. Yeah. You know, sheep hunting was always a dream of mine. And I got the opportunity about 12 years ago to go in my first one. And then just dedicated myself to getting the hunters.

And, you know, it built and built and built. And we got to hunt all these great units. We were the first ones in a lot of these New Desert sheep units here in New Mexico when they first opened. And it's just been great opportunities. We've killed great rams, met a ton of great hunters, and had a lot of fun doing it. But, you know, the elk and the deer is where we started, and we still love doing it. And it's still the bulk of our clients that we take are in elk hunting. So, you know, 17 great unit. You know, I started in the Gila in the 16 units, and we still hunt them from time to time when we're lucky enough to have a client draw a tag. But it seems that these primitive weapons units, such as 17 and 13, provide, you know, better draws, more opportunity for landowner tags, and just as good a quality of bulls. So that's probably where we spend more of our time than anywhere these days.

Besides 13 and 17, tell us, I guess, where you think your wheelhouse for elk is. Any others? I know you guide some in 15 as well. That's nearby to your place there in 13. Those three, probably as many as any right now? Yeah, definitely where we spend the bulk of our time. And like I said, I do have several hunters that are still rifle hunters and still want to hunt the Gila. So we draw them in 16A and 16D. And, of course, the wilderness in 16B, we still get a few guys every year, and they're still great units. And we're always excited when we get a tag drawn there to get to go hunt there. And it seems like, you know, I remember back when they started those November muzzle hunts, 13, 17, 15, you guys were really excited about those. I know, you know, of course, they're short hunts in New Mexico, but, you know, those bulls will kind of, you know,

group up, bachelor up together, and when you see one, you see five or ten of them. And at times, especially for you locals that shed hunted a lot, I know you guys were excited and feeling like that that was definitely going to, you know, going to kill some big bulls on those hunts. Has that been the case? Or what are you finding on those, you know, different seasons? Yeah, it's still one of my favorite hunts, those late hunts, for multiple reasons. You know, the bulls are in winter feeding patterns typically by then. They're feeding on south slopes and bedding just over the edge in the north, and you can typically, if you find a bull, have several days to get an opportunity for a shot. Whereas when you're hunting those earlier rut hunts, they're getting bumped around a lot more, or they're in that transition.

I've always said the toughest week of the year to hunt elk is the week after the rut, when those mature bulls quit the cows. And a lot of times our early muzzleloader hunts fall right upon that. So these later hunts, you know, the bulls have, like I say, they've gotten their winter feeding pattern and, you know, a lot of glassing takes place, which we love to do. And, you know, once a guy finds a bull, he's going to have, you know, some time to work his strategy and get in there and hopefully get a shot at him. So they've produced some of our better elk through the years, and, you know, we look forward to them every year. You know, New Mexico is, you know, very good, I guess, at avoiding the peak of the rut with the firearms, muzzleloader, and rifle hunts, and that's why they can offer so many different opportunity hunts for those in October and November.

But the archery hunts do center throughout the rut in September. I'd imagine that's where you get to have a lot of your fun as well with guys that are willing to hunt with a bow in September. Yeah, definitely. It's the most exciting elk hunt we do because it does, you are going to see some rutting activity if you're there in September. The bulls are actively rutting cows, and that's our opportunity to, you know, get after them. It's a, for an archery hunter, I think it's definitely the place to be. You know, New Mexico doesn't allow the firearms guys in there, and then in these primitive weapon units, they never are hunted with a rifle. So it's, you know, it's just a great opportunity to get in there and interact with them and hunt bugling bulls, which is, you know, every elk hunter's passion, of course.

What do you find, GT, like those early hunts, early archery versus the second archery? Like, are you finding that, you know, you're killing as good a bulls first as second? Or, I know I hunted, like, 23 early, the early archery, killed a great bull. It was totally, felt like it was mid-rut, and it was about September 7th. But anyway, it was a great hunt. Ended up killing him. He was 367. But it just felt like, you know, sometimes people overlook that first hunt, and I'm just kind of wondering your opinion on that. I would agree totally. I think that's a very undersubscribed hunt because, you know, with weather patterns these days, nobody can dictate the rut, whether it's for elk or white-tailed deer, for that matter. It's going to vary from week to week, annually. And we've had amazing hunts on that early hunt. You hit a, you know, it is hot.

You're going to have some dead time in the middle of the day. But a guy just goes in there knowing that, and, you know, we kill just as many good bulls on that early hunt as we do the later hunts every year. That's great. And tell us a little bit about, you know, it feels like New Mexico's one of those, you know, like Arizona, everybody's got it really nailed down. These are the bulls that are left over. These are the bulls that we're looking for. These are the units that are consistent producers. But, man, we've found, you know, as Adam and I have done a lot of research and talking to guys like you that are some of the best in the industry, I mean, we're finding, you know, odd units, 37, 18, 38, you know, 23, 21A, just odd units that will have that chance at producing, you know, I hate to say it, but 380-plus type bulls.

And, you know, maybe just give us, I know you've got a lot of experience in those. You might not want to guide them, like to guide them or something, but it just seems like there's tons of opportunities, tons of potential for, you know, bulls that haven't been seen yet, bulls that aren't being followed, you know, with the low, you know, populations of people down there. It just doesn't, it just feels like there's a lot of opportunity that's awaiting, you know, anybody that's willing to go out and work hard. Sure. I think you hit it on the head. I mean, a lot of the units you named could produce a 380-plus bull at any time, as we've seen in these outskirts areas, 18, you know, it's archery only, and it's produced some, actually, they've had a couple of bulls over 400 killed there. You know, a low desert unit, low densities of elk, and just not a lot of pressure on it.

So any of those units like that, or 23 or 21, there's opportunity that, you know, I think with good draw odds that a guy can go out there and put in the time and find a great bull to hunt probably year after year. From a precipitation moisture standpoint, how, what's your outlook in terms of what's your pattern been like the last few months to the winter? And as we start into spring right now, how optimistic are you in terms of forage and feed, and I guess that translate to antler growth this year? Well, I guess I'd say so far so good. We had a really good January and a good February. March has dried out a bit. But I, you know, I operate a working cattle ranch there, and we were digging up a water line just the other day, and the ground moisture's tremendous. And here we are, second week of March, and the green grass is coming really good up on the mountain.

So I think we're going to be in good shape with the ground moisture that we have to start producing this early, you know, early good green grass to get a good spring on antler growth. Of course, that's going to give us some good front ends, and if it'll maintain through the spring, we can grow some good bulls. You know, we've seen these years vary in what I think 30 inches of antler growth, sometimes going from a good year to a tough year. So it's really important that we get the moisture here. Yeah, that kind of echoes what our weather pattern's been in southern Utah, most of Arizona as well, which we sometimes, not always, but share a lot of that same weather pattern. And New Mexico is one of those states that is somewhat drought sensitive because it is not a, I mean, you do have some higher elevation mountainous hunts in different parts of the state where,

you know, you get 10,000 foot plus where elk can get decent feed in about any year. But it is, for the most part, a high desert state, and it seems like apply full tilt this year and try to get a tag. New Mexico obviously has a unique guide draw and unguided draw, and maybe you could just talk about that a little bit. Maybe benefits of that, if people know they're going to go with a guide, you know, when they draw, what's the pros to applying with somebody like yourself and the guide draw for all species, you know, to begin with? Sure. Well, you know, with the elk and deer, antelope, everything, I guess, for that matter, it all boils down to 6% of the tags go to non-residents who apply without an outfitter, 10% non-residents who apply with an outfitter, and the remaining 84% go to the resident hunters.

So if a guy's going to use a guide or an outfitter, in the beginning, I think they definitely increase their odds, sometimes as much as 50%, to apply with an outfitter. It puts you into that separate pool. You have to simply sign an agreement with the outfitter, and you go into that guided pool. So, and just improves your draws. You know, New Mexico's a lottery draw state. There is no bonus or preference points, and I think everybody's got a fair shake at it. So I think it's definitely a must-apply-for state for guys with that strategy, because, you know, unless you've got guaranteed tags coming from somewhere else, your odds are pretty good here. I think, you know, if a guy strategizes his application good, I think you can get as good as 20% to 40% draw odds in some of these good units. Yeah. You know, so it's pretty good, and it's definitely a state people should not overlook.

Yeah, we've definitely seen that with the change in tag allocations. You know, it went from, you know, you could, I don't know, just, we definitely did see a change in drawing odds. Guys that are going unguided or in the self-guided pool that are non-residents. I mean, it's tough. There is no question about it. It is really tough. But in that guide pool, I know non-residents and residents can, you know, can apply for and get those tags. But it's still, by far, the best odds we've seen, you know, for a non-resident obtaining a tag. Definitely. So, and if guys are going to go guided anyway, I know, you know, they might as well be applying with guys like you. I know, like, you know, like Nevada does the rifle deer only and only rifle seasons. But in New Mexico, you know, it's all seasons pertain to it. It's just the same as if you're, you know, applying for any old regular hunt unguided.

So, anyway, just really appreciate your insight to that. So, anyway, and like you said, it does work for sheep and all the different species. Maybe elaborate a little bit on that. But I know the odds for sheep are tough no matter what. But, I mean, we've seen, I mean, it's incredible the difference. Even though they're tough in the guided pool, it's just, it's astronomical the difference. Yeah, as we talked earlier, I think it actually doubles your draw odds on the sheep tags. They're still astronomical. But like I've always said, somebody's got to draw the tag. So, you've got to have your name in the hat. So, speaking of sheep, GT, tell me a little bit about, or tell us a little bit about, you know, from a rocky standpoint and then a desert standpoint, the units.

Being that non-residents, you know, have been allocated essentially one tag in the unguided and up to two tags in the guide draw for each. It really doesn't, there's not real strategy the way I see it in trying to play a better odds strategy, literally. If you're a non-resident, unguided guy, the first guy out of the hat gets his tag that he picks and that's it. So, you might as well stick, in my opinion, to the better units that are producing the biggest ram. That's my total philosophy when it comes to Rockies and deserts down there right now. So, why don't you go over your sheep units from a rocky and desert standpoint, where you think right now is producing the best rams? You know, you get three choices, so maybe the best ones, three or four, whatever, in your opinion. Yeah, I would agree totally. I'd pick the best units.

And in my opinion, for Rockies, the best unit right now would probably be the Rio Grande Gorge. There were six rams taken out of that unit last year and they all made Boone and Crockett. So, I don't know that... That's pretty dang good. You can't really compare that anywhere in the U.S. Yeah, so great, great unit, good accessibility, lots of sheep and lots of rams. It's a really good quality hunt. But after that, I would, you know, I look at some of these outer units like the Dry Cimarron or the San Francisco River. Got some great age class of rams in there. Little tougher hunting, so they've got longer seasons. But good age classes and good quality of rams, either one of which a guy could kill a Boone and Crockett ram in. And they're both desert, more deserty type units. They're not alpine. You get into the alpine herds, you look at Wheeler Peak or the Latier or the Pecos.

Any one of those units could produce a Boone and Crockett ram any given day. My favorite right now would probably be the Latier. It's a great unit. It's fairly compact. It's not very spread out. And good rams, good age class, good quality, just a good hunt. That's a hunt somebody could do with an outfitter or on their own, for that matter. You know, you could backpack in there fairly easy as opposed to Wheeler or the Pecos. You know, you mentioned something that's pretty important because I know I've spent some time in the Pecos outcunning. And just know from talking to you and other people that are hunting Wheeler and Latier, you're dealing with units that are 11,000, 12,000 feet, which is a big issue for a lot of people, you know, to consider in applying. If you come from, you know, let's face it, the bulk of the United States comes from within 500 or 1,000 feet of sea level.

And those can present some challenges for people. I'm sure you've experienced this with some of your hunters. So those other three you mentioned, Dry Cimarron, San Francisco River, and Rio Grande Gorge, are more lower elevation canyon gorge hunts. So definitely something for people to consider. If you don't get around as well or you know altitude bothers you, I would imagine, you've got choices in either direction, it sounds like. Yes.

Desert sheep, you know, my number one unit is the Ladrone. It's my backyard. I've grown up hunting here. We've killed numerous great rams there. Very low density of sheep spread over a huge amount of area. So it can present itself to be a tough hunt, but it's a great hunt in that matter. We've been hunting it now for several years and have had great success there. The Palanceo is an old traditional unit. You know, they're, again, great sheep. The hatchets has great numbers. Those are probably my top picks for the desert sheep. You know, the White Sands Missile Range in San Andreas Mountains there, they have been producing some great sheep. However, it does, you know, there's some scheduling conflicts there with getting on the range and having certain dates that you can or cannot hunt. However, you know, I think it's a great opportunity to kill, sure enough, an awesome ram.

What I think is crazy is as much time as you guys spend in all that country, especially the drones in your backyard, you know, and I've heard you talk about it before, but some of these rams just show up and everybody's kind of wondering where they come from. Maybe haven't been named, so to speak. And there's a giant ram looking at it, and you guys are, you know, of course you're in on some of the different auction hunts and governor tag type, you know, harvests and whatnot. So anyway, is that just that these rams are just, like you said, spread out and low densities and they're just slipping through or they're in a refuge or how's that working? Yeah, that's one of the most exciting things about the ladrone is you never know what you're going to find there.

You know, there's probably, I would say, a third of the unit that's not huntable, and it is refuge or there's actually a piece of the mountain that's owned by a local college here that doesn't allow hunting. And these rams that we've found to be very nomadic here, we've seen rams on one end of the unit and then found them 60 miles south a week later during the rut. They travel, they walk a lot. So it's always exciting to go glass there and just, you know, like I say, you never know what you're going to find. You look up on the hill and see a ram you've never seen there after you've been glassing for 20 days. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about the history of some of these, the sheep where, you know, back in the day, you know, how many tags they offered, and then when they come up with all these new units and whatnot, how that changed everything and the excitement that was behind that.

Well, the unit of the Palencios was the only desert sheep unit we had, and they offered one tag for, oh, man, a long time, 10-plus years anyway. And then three years ago, they had got the numbers up high enough that they delisted the desert sheep in New Mexico to hunt all these other units. I believe there's six of them now, and they all offer between one and actually like in the hatchets up to six tags. And, you know, so these, some of these sheep herds have been built up to in excess of 200. And so there was a ton of excitement. We all knew they were opening and were very excited. And like I say, as soon as they, you know, said they were opening them, we were boots on the ground and scouting. And there's not many places in the world that you can go hunt, you know, 180-inch-plus desert sheep. And we were fortunate enough to actually kill several rams that were in, you know, above 190.

So it's just been awesome. And, you know, there hasn't been 190-inch ram killed in the U.S. in 30-plus years. So now we've had two successful hunts of rams that size, and you go, like I say, going into any one of these units could produce something of that caliber. It's fun. And you kind of think, well, is it going to come to an end? But it doesn't seem to. Every year there's great rams killed in a new unit. You know, this year the Cavalos produced a 180-plus ram, which is, you know, they've killed about seven rams there prior to that. So all of a sudden, you know, a 180 shows up. It's exciting every year. Well, as somebody else likes sheep and does a little guiding for sheep myself, I know I looked upon what you guys are pulling out every year. With a little bit of envy, we don't quite have that kind of rams in Utah. I still have a lot of great hunting, but you guys have some giants.

And so obviously your outfitting business, I guess, got on board and got established. And then, you know, just kind of the perfect storm lined up with when a lot of these new sheep opportunities, for desert at least, opened up. And, you know, now I think there's 20-ish, 20-ish roughly permits for each species each year. So a lot of opportunity, a lot to be commended. I know Jason and I have known Eric Romger and other folks within New Mexico Game and Fish for years in the sheep program. And I know a lot of work goes in, like every state, into managing their sheep purge. They're just that kind of animal. But a lot of success stories in New Mexico with their sheep, for sure. Yeah, for sure. And they're continually putting effort forward. I know they just did a big transplant and are looking at opening new areas in the future. So, you know, I guess there's no end to the opportunity in sight.

Let's maybe shift gears a little bit to deer and talk with us a little bit about where you and or some of your guides or others that you partner up with look for in terms of either, I guess, first mule deer. And then you do have coos deer in New Mexico as well. Sure. So overall, general rule of thumb in New Mexico is deer densities are low. However, I think there's any one of these western units in particular on the western half of the state could produce a great buck at any time. So starting in the northwest, these are the most popular units there are, units 2B, 2C, 2A for that matter. They're traditionally always producing, you know, more big deer than anywhere else and quite a bit of opportunity. The 2B hunts have a tendency to be weather dependent. They get a lot of migration in from Colorado. It's a well-known fact.

So hot, dry years, the hunting can be a lot tougher than on years when we get early cold and snow up north. So, but a great unit, a unit that a guy could hunt a 180-plus inch deer in any given year. You get into 2C and probably the toughest rods in the state, a lot more resident deer, but I would arguably the best genetics we have to produce, you know, a 180 or 200-inch plus kind of deer. Yeah, I know I spent a little time with your partner, at least the guy that you do a lot of business with, Dave, and we spent a little time and, you know, of course killed that Governor Buck there, you know, last winter in any way. I mean, that's proof. That's, you know, 280-inch deer coming out of that desert country is pretty phenomenal. It's unbelievable that they have deer like that. Absolutely, and we, you know, I would say the best opportunity there comes with the archery hunt.

You know, a guy can get in that January archery hunt and get into some rutting activity. You're not awaiting the migration. It's there and done with, so you're going to see lots of deer. You're going to have lots of opportunity. It's a good hunt. It can pose its, you know, tribulations with weather and, you know, snow and mud, but the opportunity is going to be there to see and hunt good deer. So that's a really good archery deer opportunity at a time of year when a lot of guys are looking for something to do anyway. Get into January and the holidays are over and a lot of guys have got cabin fever and looking for somewhere to go. That's a great hunt. What about outside of that, northwest New Mexico units, you know, five and two, what opportunities do you offer hunters that maybe don't quite have at least as high of expectations size-wise?

You know, what other units do you have them consider looking at down more in your neck of the woods? So we do deer hunting down here in 13 and 16, and they're good deer hunts. There, again, populations are low, but we still have the opportunity to hunt 170, 180-inch deer. Most of our deer hunts down here are horseback because we're hunting in some of these, you know, backcountry roadless areas. But a good traditional mule deer hunt, you know, a guy can hunt a mature buck that's in that, you know, 22 to 25-inch range and have a good time doing it for sure. Have you spent, I know you spent a lot of time in 17. I've had a few guys ask me about it a little bit. I've traditionally tried not to get guys too excited about it, but have you seen a shift there? I mean, have you seen a little better deer there?

I have, you know, over the course of the last few years, I feel like our deer numbers have actually improved a little bit here in the southwest. We seem to see more deer through our hunts. So I think it's on an increase a bit. And 17 is one of those units, you know, they're, again, low populations, but can produce some pretty nice deer if a guy will put the time in to find them. How about, you know, can you tell us a little more about 2A? It's one of those people, it's in the right quadrant. It's right there. It's, I know it's somewhat conservatively managed. Hear very little about it. And I don't know if you can give us a little insight. Feels like there should be a giant in there. And we're always looking for that for ourselves. But anyway, I didn't know if maybe you spent any time in there.

You know, I've spent very little time in A, but I do feel like it's one of those units that it undoubtedly has the same genetics as B or C and could produce a giant deer at any time. I think it just, you know, just doesn't get the height that 2B or 2C gets. So I think there's good deer killed there every year. You get into a little more residential area, so you've got to be a little careful of how your access and where things are at. But definitely a unit not to be overlooked. I know we've, Adam and I, have looked at places like Seven and some of those real low-density desert areas, which are kind of, you know, we're a fan of those. Just because usually you have very, very few tags and it's kind of you against the deer. But I know that's checkerboarded with Navajo, you know, the reservation here and there. So anyway, any insight on some of that country? Well, I think you've covered it.

Those are all units that could produce giant deer at any time. They just require a lot of scouting. And for the guy that likes to get out there and find something and hunt it, they're ideal for that because any one of them could produce a great deer at any time. Yeah, just to kind of give a little wrap-up on deer, I guess just, you know, I know over the years, just like you were talking about, like, you know, we mentioned 12 and 13 and some of that country. I mean, I've heard just crazy stories over the years of giants in some of that country, but it's flat and thick. And a lot of those deer seem to die of old age. And New Mexico, I know New Mexico is not known as one of the top three or four deer states in the West. And it's tough, tough, but because of the terrain and different things, you know, it does have that potential for giants. We're always thinking about it.

Adam and I are always looking for the next place that might produce a 200-inch deer. And we do think about New Mexico. It's just not easy. You don't have, you know, rifle rut hunts like Colorado or, you know, a lot of it isn't glassable. It's just flat and densely, dense, you know, terrain. So, anyway, any more thoughts on some of that? Well, you know, exactly what you said. It's tough. But with that being said, it's a place that a guy can actually, in some of these lower-density units, the tags are not that hard to draw for a non-resident. And you can more than likely draw them multiple years in a row. So, and if that's a guy's strategy who loves to hunt deer, such as myself, it's one of my favorite species to hunt, you can go into an area and learn it and hunt it multiple times. Where in other states, you may draw one of these tags one time in your life and not have that opportunity.

And I think every time you hunt a unit, it increases your odds of being successful. So, you know, for a deer hunter or a guy that wants to put some time in and, you know, make multiple trips to a unit, I think you could really be successful doing it that way. Yeah, and one deer that, you know, Jason and I, and I'm sure a lot of other people remember that you helped a hunter take was a giant buck for the geeseys, John Geese. And that was in a, not a unit that you or I or anybody would probably tell people to apply for. I believe you found it either sheep scouting or sheep hunting one year. Why don't you tell us about that deer and how big it was and all that? Because it was one of those legends, really, that kind of can just happen on a unit like what we're talking about. It really was. Yeah, it was a buck that we scouted in the Wheeler Peak unit.

We were scouting for sheep and found this giant deer and, you know, through the network of friends, we found that John had a tag that year that he could hunt it. And we actually hunted the buck that year and weren't successful harvesting him. So John made a big effort to get a tag again the next year. And we set out to get that buck and we were successful getting him. We killed him on the 7th of September. He was in velvet. He, uh, SCI measured 270 inches, uh, you know, with a 30 plus inch main beam on his right. So just, uh, a tremendous buck and a unit that I've hunted for 10 plus years for sheep. And I've never seen prior or since a buck even close to that caliber. So, you know, a diamond in the rough per se. And we were lucky enough to be there for it. And it's a good memory because it took a lot of days and a lot of effort to get him.

He was living at, uh, you know, about 11,000 feet there every year. And, and, uh, just a, a great buck, uh, very memorable buck that I'll never forget getting to hunt. Wasn't he just living like we're, you know, along a trail where, you know, we get a lot of hikers and maybe naturalists walking by and just kind of, kind of a total different situation, wasn't it? Yeah, it really was. He was living off probably one of the, well, it is the most traveled hiking trail in New Mexico. It's the trail that leads to, uh, Williams Lake and Wheeler Peak. Uh, however, in, in watching the buck and learning him, he, uh, he was out early in the morning in some big, uh, rock slide shoots. And, and it seemed like when the hiking activity got high and the people, he would just slip into a little thicket and bed down for the day.

And of course, afternoon and evening would come and the traffic would slow down and he'd come out and feed again. And he was living there with a couple other bucks and had his little routine, uh, seemed like he avoided the bulk of the traffic. And I think very few people even ever looked up on the hill and seen he was there, but, uh, pretty interesting little routine. He had to avoid all the traffic there. Yeah, that's pretty, pretty awesome. One of those that, that just, just happens sometimes right place, right time and connections, like you said. So, uh, maybe just real briefly, since I did mention earlier, you do have coos deer in New Mexico, maybe highlight two or three units that you feel probably give a guy a best chance.

I know we're not talking about, you know, Arizona, it comes to deer numbers and, and, you know, the wide, you know, number of units throughout Arizona that have coos deer. But tell us maybe about your best, uh, units in your opinion to consider hunting coos deer in New Mexico. Sure. I, so I think the most popular units are of course 27. It's right in the boot hill and borders, Mexico and the South and Arizona on the West. Uh, it's probably got the best quality and densities of deer. Uh, and, and definitely the most popular. Another unit I'm a big fan of is 23 along the San Francisco River. Uh, good numbers of coos deer and some good quality. And I think probably one of the more overlooked units for coos deer would be 21A. Uh, it runs on the east side of the Black Range, big, high country, very rugged, but has traditionally, uh, produced some really good coos deer.

Another one of those units that if a guy wants to work hard and get in there and, and make a big effort could probably produce a great buck. It's kind of crazy thinking about New Mexico. I know, uh, talking to a lot of different people, including yourself and, and friends of yours as well. And people you're connected with, but, uh, you know, guys are seeing these giants in weird places while they're elk hunting. Whether it be in the 16s or who knows where, you know, and it's just, it's just interesting. You know, again, as with what we were talking with elk is you don't know where they're going to show up. You don't know where a giant's going to be. And there's, there's deer that aren't named. It feels like this day and age here in Utah, especially, you know, Utah places in Nevada, the Arizona strip. I mean, and a lot of the elk units in Arizona, we, I mean, there's named bulls.

They, they've got a bounty on their heads and, and they've been in the crosshairs for a couple of years. And that's the one thing I just love about New Mexico is, is who knows, you know, it could, it could be a giant anywhere. And somebody pulls out a giant and you just think, man, where's that deer been living? And, and there really, nobody knows any history behind him. It's truly a deer that hasn't been watched and hasn't been, you know, seen by numerous people, numerous times and photographed. Let's see any other, before we move on, any other insights to coos, maybe the different seasons, um, that they offer. And, you know, is there anything there, anything else there that, uh, people might need to know about? Well, I think one of the greatest opportunities New Mexico provides for the coos deer in a lot of these units, they do have a hunt in December that's actually nine days long.

And anybody who's hunted coos deer or deer in general, for that matter, knows that that extra four days can pay dividends, uh, as far as being able to, you know, find a good buck and then actually get in position to get a shot. Because just because you see them with, especially with coos deer doesn't mean you're going to get a shot at them. Yeah, that's exactly right. Very, very good point on that. Cause you know, you know, and not just something to point out since there's no point system in New Mexico and, and, and, and the very Northwest units for mule deer have such tough odds. Uh, I think coos deer get overlooked a lot, uh, just simply because, you know, everybody thinks of 2B, 2C, 5B, some of these units up there for mule deer. So, uh, I know you've done them from time to time, been successful hunting them yourself.

And definitely, I think, get overlooked a little bit for New Mexico on, or the coos deer. I agree. Yeah, and you can, you can apply for a mule deer, one, first, second choice, coos deer, third, or, you know, mix it up a little bit. Yeah, I think that's something a lot of people miss on their applications in New Mexico in general, uh, is the fact that they actually go through all three of your hunt choices prior to moving on to the next applicant. So, you know, a lot of guys put their first choice and that's it. Well, you're missing a big opportunity there that you could apply for maybe two tough rifle hunts and then put in a lesser hunt for your third choice and know that you're going to get to go deer hunt. One thing, uh, that's absolutely true. One thing, GT, uh, New Mexico, unlike about any other state, has some unique opportunities for some exotic species.

Uh, the ibex on the Florida mountains, the oryx on white sands. Maybe talk about those two opportunities briefly. Uh, I know the drawing odds aren't tremendous. They're not great, but I know you guide both of those. Talk with us a little bit about the ibex and oryx hunts and maybe specifically when it comes to the oryx. What, which zones within white sands you prefer, think are the better ones right now? So, uh, starting with the oryx, uh, I, it's a great hunt. It's a hunt anybody can do. Uh, they're, they're a fun animal to hunt. Uh, it's like hunting antelope on steroids, I would say. Uh, beautiful trophy, good to eat. And, uh, tough draw there again, but, you know, somebody's got to draw it. And these are hunts that can take place in January, February, March, when there's not a lot of other things going on.

Uh, I, right now, my favorite would actually probably be the stallion range and that's kind of changed, but it's producing some really good oryx right now. Uh, next to it would be Rhodes Canyon. And these are high success hunts. So, you know, if a guy draws one of these hunts, he's got good odds of taking a nice trophy home. Uh, and then onto, onto the Ibex. You know, it takes place in the Florida mountains. Tough draw odds, but, and a really tough mountain to hunt. Uh, but a extremely fun mountain hunt that a guy can do. I'd say arguably one of the best opportunities in the United States to do a hunt like this. Uh, rugged mountain with just an amazing trophy. Uh, good quality. And I think that there again, something a lot of people overlook is the opportunity to apply for their second choice with a muzzleloader. Uh, New Mexico doesn't have any restrictions on their muzzleloaders.

So you can use a scope muzzleloader, savated bullets. And, and with today's technology, you know, no different than the way we're hunting now. Uh, you know, a guy's actually got a, uh, efficient firearm in his hands where he can shoot something at two to 300 plus yards. Yeah, absolutely. I, I know we highly recommend near any firearm hunter to apply for rifle first, muzzleloader second. The archery hunts I know are completely different ball game. Uh, kind of a numbers game. What I mean by that, and GT, you can probably elaborate on this, is you just got to have a lot of stocks under your belt. And in some cases shoot longer distances maybe than traditionally you'd be totally comfortable with. Just simply because of the terrain, the steepness, the number of animals sometimes in some of these groups. Those kill rates are less than 10% on the archery for a reason.

And so apply for those only if you really know what you're getting into, wouldn't you say? Absolutely. You know, that kind of leads us into some of the other opportunities in New Mexico. They're, they're very good at giving opportunities to youth, uh, to mobility impaired hunters, uh, for different species. Not for every unit in every, uh, every part of the state or for all species in every part of the state. But they've got, you know, youth hunts for, you know, deer, elk, antelope, sheep, uh, and mobility impaired hunts for, you know, some of the better elk and antelope areas in the state. Maybe briefly talk about, you know, areas that you, and, and I might add that they normally start their, particularly with regard to antelope and elk, their seasons are prior to any of the other firearm hunts. So they actually can be pretty strong rut hunts a lot of years, can't they, for the elk?

They are, and year after year prove to be one of our better hunts that we do. Uh, we've got a lot of clients that, uh, like to take their kids hunting and we support it, uh, as much as we can. And I mean, without kids hunting, we all know there's no future in it. So, uh, it's a good chance to get your kids out on, on our, you know, possibly one of the better hunts they'll ever go on. Uh, draw odds are better than they are on the general adult hunts. And, uh, it does get to start a week prior. So we do catch a lot of the bulls still in, in real active rut. And, uh, you know, getting your kids out there and getting them an elk is great, but, uh, getting them out there and letting them actually experience the rut. Uh, we all know when you've heard a bull bugle, it's something you never forget and you want to hear more and more. So I think that's a good chance to get the kids out there.

Uh, and same with the deer. They actually have those hunts later in the year. Uh, I know down here in the southern units where we hunt, it does start getting, uh, into some rutting activity and the deer are more active. So, you know, they're going to get to see, you know, my belief when you take a kid hunting, you want them to see game and you want them to get opportunities, uh, or they're going to get bored with it. So I think New Mexico has done a good job, uh, of putting those seasons where, where it plays in the favor of the, of the hunter, you know, the kids hunting. I'd sure have to agree with you. Yeah. You know, I know, um, Adam and I have taken our kids down there. We've hunted deer. I've hunted, um, you know, Colton, my oldest kid killed his first deer in New Mexico. Thankfully that was a state that allows them to hunt, um, as soon as they have hunter ed.

And it was just super opportunity hunted unit 10. And, and I know, like we've talked about, they give these kids just premium season dates, you know, rut hunts. If you're willing to do it short, but you know, short clips and just, you come in and then take a break, come in and take a break within that season. And, and, uh, I know we've sure been appreciative. Even my second oldest, uh, killed an elk on the youth hunt, uh, muzzleloader unit 15. And, uh, just, you know, his, his first big game animal. So super appreciative in New Mexico. And I'm sure you, I know you've been a part of that. You've even, you know, guided some of these youth hunts and whatnot. And you've seen that firsthand. Absolutely. Yeah. No, no doubt that we, we guide them every year and actually have kids of my own that, uh, hunt them every year. So it's fun to get out with them and, and have those good opportunities.

Right. As, uh, as we kind of wrap it up here, GT, I mean, maybe do you have any insight to your personal application strategy or favorite hunting memory or any of these, you know, I know you've guided some amazing tags. I don't know anybody who's taken more, you know, high dollar auction tags. You've taken, you know, a lot of our clients over the years and Adam and I have been super appreciative. You've represented the industry extremely well. You've represented us well. And, and of course we're super proud to be associated with you, but you know, any, uh, any, uh, insight to, to your application strategy or, or something really cool, a memory that's one of your favorites? You know, I'd, I'd have to say those two questions kind of go hand in hand for me. My application strategy has always been, you know, read the input that you guys are putting out and apply.

Uh, I apply in most of the Western states and I, uh, I actually apply for hunts. Uh, I don't go just the points only system. Most of the time I figure if I'm lucky enough to draw one, I'm going to make time to go do it. And, and even with my busy schedule, I've tried my best to do that. And in saying that I was lucky enough a few years ago to draw early muzzleloader tag in Arizona and unit 27 and had one of the, the finest tons I've ever had personally. Uh, I killed a tremendous bull was four 14. Jeez. Uh, my dream. Sixth day of a seven day hunt. And, and I had a great time. Uh, so I mean, I remember when I drew the tag, I called Jason and he said, well, that was probably worse odds than drawing a sheet tag, but you got the only tag that went in the random draw.

So, you know, I, I, I made the best of it and, uh, I, it's a hunt that'll always stick out in my mind as a really great opportunity. I was hoping you'd bring that up cause that, that was the bull that I was, I was thinking of. I was, if I remember I just had triple brow tines, doesn't it? On both sides. Correct. Yes. Yeah. Very unique bull, just a giant. So yeah, I know that, no, your time's probably coming on a sheep tag or something else. Seems like, cause I do know you apply for a lot of, a lot of Western States as we, you know, bounce ideas of each other from time to time. So, uh, really appreciate your time today. Uh, GT and, uh, maybe just let people know how they'd get ahold of you. If they're interested, uh, the, the deadline is March 22nd this year.

Um, you know, if you're not going to apply in the guide draw initially, but you do end up drawing a tag, uh, and decide you want some help, uh, somebody like GT, how, how does somebody, how do they get ahold of you? Best, best way to get ahold of me is a cell phone number. Uh, it's 505-350-9775. Uh, you can see us on Facebook at Frontier Outfitting. Uh, you know, just, just call, get ahold of us. We'll help you through the application. Uh, if Epic does your application, we work closely with them and have good strategies in place for, you know, trying to maximize everybody's opportunity to get in a good tag. It's awesome, GT. Sure. Appreciate you, man. Uh, just, you know, New Mexico is one of our favorite States. It's one of those things Adam and I spend way too much time probably analyzing it because you got, you know, two to three seasons.

With every species and, and, uh, tons of units to choose from and lots of good quality animals to be had in multiple, multiple units. And, and so, uh, you know, it's, it's just one of our favorites to apply for. And of course, tons and tons of species and opportunities. And, uh, anyway, just appreciate you and all you've done for us and our members here at Epic, um, and, uh, taking some time with us today. Great. Well, thank you guys for having me. And, uh, nine days away from the deadline. And so everybody get, get on your phone or your computer and get applied. Okay. As we close here, I just want to tell everybody we do here at Epic Outdoors publish a monthly magazine December through June, bi-monthly, uh, from then through the rest of the year.

Um, for the first six months of the year, we break down all the States, Western, big game, drawing odds, kill percentages, best units, as well as offer personalized application strategy service. And, uh, we also help guys find outfitters for different hunts you're looking for. So anyway, look us up. It's epicoutdoors.com. Numbers 435-263-0777. Adam and I are here. We're willing to help. And, uh, anyway, thanks to GT and good people like him. We get to enjoy hunting the West and, uh, and, uh, of course he's an awesome outfitter and been at it for years and years and sure appreciate his assistance today. Thanks GT. Thanks a lot, buddy. Thank you guys. Have a good day. All right, you too. You too.