EP 9: Building a Brand with Jason Hairston

I know you involved a lot of your customers. You're really going to be as successful as you can be. Do something you love. You're into tents, gear bags, game bags. I love constantly improving our product. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, it's Jason Carter. Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour Hunt. In these episodes, we sit down with some of the leading people in the industry and just extract good and valuable information and ideas that help us become more educated as sportsmen and also help us become more successful at hunting. So anyway, if you're new to the show, don't forget to subscribe to the Epic Outdoors podcast as well as on our YouTube channel. I just want to tell everybody we do here at Epic Outdoors publish a monthly magazine December through June, bi-monthly from then through the rest of the year. For the first six months of the year, we break down all the states, Western big game, drawing odds, kill percentages, best units, as well as offer personalized application strategy service.

And we also help guys find outfitters for different hunts you're looking for. So anyway, look us up. It's epicoutdoors.com. Number's 435-263-0777. Got an awesome visitor here with us today. Really appreciate Jason Harrison with QU. It's good to be here. You betcha. Welcome, buddy. Anyway, just want to kind of dive into this. I've known Jason for many, many years. He's, everybody knows who he is. He's definitely one of the lead innovators in our industry and made some revolutionary changes. Of course, we all have some of their products, QU as well as his former company. And just really want to welcome you here on my podcast. Honored to be here. Awesome. Known each other a long time. I'm honored to be on here as a guest. You bet. Yeah, it's been forever. Proud of what you guys are doing with Epic. Thanks. I think it's outstanding. Appreciate that. Yeah, we appreciate your support.

You guys are awesome. Absolutely. You were the first guy to sign up. And just can't thank you guys enough. Of course. Yeah, I've always been a big fan of what you guys have done and what you've done in your career and your past. And I don't know if you remember, but SICK is advertising and Huntin' Fool. That was like our first advertising. That's right. And it was big for us. And it was big for us. It was. And when I launched Kuyu, same thing. So I've always loved what you guys have done and how you guys have done it. And honored to be a part of Epic. It took one phone call before I said absolutely. It's awesome. All in. Yeah, and we appreciate that. And never forget it. And looking forward to a long-term relationship and partnership with you guys. And so anyway, maybe as we get started here, I'd just like to invite you to go ahead and introduce yourself. Sure.

Maybe from when you were a child, it's what brought you up through the ranks, what you've been doing. I know you're accomplished in many other aspects of your life. And then just kind of give our listeners a little something behind who Jason is. Yeah, I'd love to share it. You know, I'm kind of an unlikely person to be where I am today in business and what I've done with my career. I grew up in Southern California in Orange County near the beach, growing up surfing. Fortunately, I grew up with a father that loved to hunt. Yeah. And I had an instant connection from my earliest days and always just loved the adventure of the outdoors, loved prepping for the hunts, talking about the hunts. The only thing I read as a kid was hunting books. Wow. We didn't read Cat in the Hat. We read stories about Fred Bear and O'Connor. And those were my heroes growing up. Yeah.

And really to kind of define my future. And growing up in Orange County, not all places to hunt, but we found local places. We went out of state. And it was a big connection for my father and I. Wow. And he's kind of old school. And we always had that. Yeah. And that always kept us close. Still to this day, I just took him on a moose hunt. He's 72 years old. That's awesome. Shot a moose. It says bucket dream list, animal. And we were able to get it done on film at 12 yards. Wow. With his longbow, wood arrows. And so it's been a massive part of my life. That's awesome. And I got in athletics. Had a reasonably good high school career. Ended up at UC Davis. Played a three-time All-American there. And then ended up with the Niners in 95 as an inside linebacker. And then was picked up by the Broncos after that season in 96. Went to camp. Broke my neck in 14 places. Jeez. Paralyzed my left arm.

Got surgery on it. Corrected it. Unfortunately, I'm fine today. But it ended my football career. Wow. That's crazy. Went from being paralyzed to now you've got full use of it. I do. I do. And, you know, it was a scary time in a couple different ways. Injury. Although I believed I'd come back from it. The doctors thought I could. But really, the transition in life. Yeah. You know, when you're a college athlete and you're getting looked at to go to the NFL, I mean, your whole focus becomes football. Yeah. Still hunting as much as I could when I could. But when that all ends suddenly, it's kind of a – I see a lot of athletes go through that period of time where you're like, all right, what's next? Yeah. You know, you're running a football stadium with 80,000 screaming fans, mile-high stadium, or wherever it is. Yeah. That's a hard thing to replace. And I fell back on hunting. Yeah.

So you went back to it. Did you ever quit? Nope. Or just so busy training and all of that. The falls are hard. Yeah. You're playing football. That's what you're doing. I got into a waterfall shooting birds. And we did some blacktail hunting in California because that was open in July. But, yeah, I fell back on the mountains as my medicine and my peace. And I got back into doing more backpack hunting, which we did a bit with my father growing up. That's awesome. And ended up doing just a lot of solo backpack trips into Nevada, Idaho. And that's what led me into my career in Creighton City. Yeah. Did a lot of training for you, just doing real-world training out in the hills. Yep. And all my spare time I spent scouting or hunting. Wow. Or planning to scout and hunt. Yeah. As you do. All the research. And I loved it. Yeah.

And, but just struggling with the product we got to choose from, from hunting retailers at the time. Yeah. And I ended up going to REI and mountaineering shops to really build out my kit for the type of hunting I was doing. And in 04, we came up with the concept. I invited my, who ended up being my business partner at the time in Sitka, on his first out-of-state elk hunting. He'd never been on one before. Okay. Sent him to Cabello's with kind of some ideas of what to buy. He bought some kit and gear. And that trip, we were sitting on a mountain. We done a big climb that morning, chasing some bulls in the dark. Yeah. And got up on top. Vic Storm came in. We were cold, wet, and miserable sitting under this tree. He was colder, wet, or more miserable because he's wearing stuff from the hunting market. Yeah. And we just, like, why can't we have a complete layering system?

Why can't we have the synthetic performance fabrics like you can find in the outdoor markets? Sure. And that was the birth of the idea for Sitka. Wow. Okay. So then now, how do you transition from having idea to building the product? You know, getting in and out of football, I got into sales, commercial real estate, and was doing well on it. Yeah. But realized that it really wasn't meeting all my goals in my life. I felt like I always wanted more. Yeah. I wanted to do something that I loved and was passionate about. When that idea struck, I knew that was it. And I felt like it in my gut, like, that's my future. I'm going to do this. And just started networking and calling and talking to anybody that knew anything about apparel, cutting sew, technical fabrics. Like, who can help me get this thing together? Yeah. Yeah.

And just because my instincts and my gut were telling me that's it, I was so excited about it. I just never quit working on it. Yeah. And one thing led to another. We were able to build a sample line. I knew of Sinead's boots at the time. And their catalog went out to the type of customer that I was trying to reach. Yeah. So, fortunately, at the time, John Edwards had just bought Sinead's. And he didn't know what he was doing. I had no really idea of what I was doing. So, it was a match made in heaven. Yeah. And you're both just going to go through it together for a minute. Yeah, exactly. And he's trying to expand his catalog offering. I had this new product line. And so, he took a gamble on me. Sure. And he put a $10,000 purchase order in. It's the only dealer who got to pick us up in 2006. And to make that purchase order, I had to order $200,000 of product. Wow.

And I just believed it was. You did it. I believed the woodwork. You and your partner. Yeah. And so, I leveraged my house, put the money in. Wow. And the product arrived, fortunately, on time. Catalog dropped. And he called me the second day after it dropped and said, how much product you have will take it all because we just crushed it the first day. It was okay. Yeah. It was just right place, right time. I think the market was starving for a brand that meant something that was different than what was out there, a product line that functioned and performed different. Yeah. And it was like overnight success. Wow. Crazy. And we went in 2006 from one door, which is Sinead's, to almost every single major retailer in the United States overnight. Wow. And it just blew up. So, basically, two employees started out with you and your partner. Or just me, really. Jonathan stayed in his old job.

I put all the money in, built it out of my garage. Wow. And then, once I got up off the ground and we knew it was going to be successful, he quit his job. Quote his job. Yeah. And I sold. I got out of what I was doing and just went head first into it. Crazy. It's awesome. Awesome story. Awesome. And I was just so excited about it. I couldn't sleep at night. I was so excited about it. So, you basically went from professional athletics to investing in clothing. About five years later, yeah. Went into commercial real estate, but it was just lost. You know, one of those things where, God, is this it? Yeah. You know, there's more for me in this life than just making some money selling real estate. Yeah. And I wanted to do something that was meaningful to me, that I had a passion about. Yeah. And when we came up with the idea, I was like, you know it. You know it.

Well, there's something about building a business. That's it. Yeah. And there's something about building a business that you just feel like, you know, it's just like a child and you're going to nurture it and watch it grow. Well, you do. Get attached to it. And if you're going to be successful in business or build a brand or build a company, if you're really going to be as successful as you can be, do something you love. Yeah. And it makes all the difference. Yeah. Because Mondays are awesome when you love what you do. Yeah. Same at night. You never stop working at it. It's just like what you're doing. Yeah. It's crazy. You never stop thinking about it. You never stop working at it. And that makes the difference, right? Yeah. It makes it hard to compete against somebody that loves what they do. It is hard to compete.

Because when you have normal employees, they go home at night and they don't think about it anymore. And they may even dread 8 o'clock coming. They all do. Well, yeah. I hope they don't at Kuyu. I try to make it that way. But most of the market has the same passion. Sure. Absolutely. And it makes it so it's really hard. I always say, you know, these other brands that are coming into the space right now, it's like, it's awesome. Yeah. I don't know if they can out-commit me because I don't think anyone loves what they do more than I love what I do with Kuyu, right? Right. It just makes that big difference. But there's room for everybody. We'll see. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. So, let's see. You guys separated, ended up starting up Kuyu. Well, you know, it's one of those things. You know, we grew really fast. We needed to raise money to chase demand.

In 08, Gore-Tex came and approached us to license, which is kind of opposite. Okay. Most companies beg Gore-Tex to become a licensee. They came to us because we were so hot in hunting. They wanted to become relevant in hunting. And we licensed them. They wanted us to help them develop new materials for this market. And we needed to raise money that year because we were growing like crazy. So, they invested in us. Yeah. And we closed the investment. Two weeks later, their market crashed. Wow. And that's when things got a little bit scary for some people at Sitka at the time. Yeah. And they just convinced themselves the market was going to be so bad that we could be insolvent and go bankrupt. And I was totally bullish on the brand at the time. I mean... You're like, I'm not giving it up. Well, no. We're still hot. Hunters are still going hunting. They're still going to buy our product.

And they're going, oh, it's... Hunters are passionate. The world's coming to an end. Right. Right. And I ended up being right. They were wrong. But they convinced Gore that it was the right thing to do. They did kind of put a transaction behind my back to sell the company to them. Forced my wife and I out of the company at the time. Yeah. And didn't do it very well. Professionally. Professionally. Yeah. And there I was nine months later after taking an investment from Gore. And I thought we won at that time. You know, $2 billion global leader in performance textiles. At the time. And nine months later, I was sitting in my garage. I started the company in. Unemployed. A newborn... Empty garage. Newborn girl. Where am I going to go? Well, and a baby girl on the way. Born... Was being born the next week. 22-month-old. No slurs of income. Sitting in the worst economic crisis of her life.

Crazy. And my life savings was tied up in the business still. And I was like, how in the heck did I get here? Yeah. Nine months before, I thought I just won. Wow. And that's a really big... Went from winning the Super Bowl to... Having your heart ripped out of your chest. Totally. From your biggest dream you thought you accomplished. Gosh. That was a... That was an amazing time. Sets you down for a minute. It does. Yeah. It does. I learned a lot about people. I've been there. I've been there. Learned a lot about myself. I got a little... I thought... I got a little bit of a similar story there. Yeah, exactly. It does sit you down for a set. It does. And I thought at that point, that was the worst thing that ever had happened to me. Yeah. Point in my life. Yeah. You know, people I thought were my friends ended up not being. Yep. I learned a lot about loyalty. Yeah. Or the lack of it.

And... But now I look back, it's like, thank God. Oh. Thank God it happened. Yeah. It's freedom. Now it's the best thing that ever happened to me. Absolutely. Yeah. It got me out of that business with those people. I was able to get out without a non-compete. Yep. I had met Torrey, the fabrics we buy from now. Yep. Yep. When I had Sitka, they were just too expensive for us to make work within our line. Sure. But I knew about the performance and all their advantages. Yeah. We just couldn't get them to market. Yeah. In fact, nobody could. Torrey had basically given up on the U.S. market because of their pricing. Yeah. And that stuck with me. I was also really frustrated with the retail model selling high-performance products in it. They couldn't add any value at the time we sold. And so I was having to...

To really guarantee sell-through at the big box retailers, I was having to educate our customers. Yeah. Well in advance. Yeah. And all they were doing was going down there, taking off a hanger and checking out. And I thought, man, that $100 jacket that I'm selling to the big box retail for $200. Yeah. You're selling to them for $400. How can they get $200 for that jacket for hanging on a hanger? They're not doing anything. Right. Other than providing the brick and mortar space. Right. And they're limiting... I'm forced to use less expensive materials. I'm cutting costs on factory choices. Yes. And I'm giving up product performance and quality for the retailer, which I didn't want to do for the customer, but I was forced to. Yes. I just felt like it was all broken. Yeah. I thought maybe I'm looking at this thing different because I never had experience in this market. Yeah.

Maybe it's just the way it is. Which is good at times. It's good at times. And then as I got farther along, I was like, I think this thing just is broken. And now I look at it, I'm like, I was right. As we look at all these retailers filing bankruptcy. All these retailers in trouble. Yes. And yet you can still sell direct. That's the best thing I've ever done. Yeah. And so I just felt like there was an opportunity to bypass the retailer, build a better product with a direct-to-consumer business model and sell it to them. Let's give the retail market back to the customer. Yeah. They're the ones doing the homework and the research. Yeah. They should have it. There you have it. And that's what I believed. My gut told me. The hard thing was that people, we talked about this business model, my business plan, as I talked to professionals, investors.

Like, man, how are you going to find that first customer? How are you going to get people to trust you? Yeah. You have a brand name no one can say. Yeah. Right? Kuyu, why would you name your .com? That is a good question. My gut told me I was right. Right? Yeah. And I've been on Kuyu Island before. Yeah. I just like the name. I believed in it. Yeah. And it ends up being a really great brand name. Yeah. Yeah. But I had a lot of doubters with the business model. No one wanted to invest in me. I got one, my business partner now, Rob, took a chance on it. Went for it. Best thing he's ever done. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's awesome. And, yeah, it's just been an amazing run with this thing. So now you've extended, you know, you've expanded way beyond clothing. You're into tents, what, gear bags, game bags, vinyl harnesses. Tell me about it.

Yeah, no, it's a good question of why we've expanded those things. A lot of it's customer feedback. Yeah. I mean, customers ask for certain things. We came out with our super down jacket when I was introduced to Torrey's waterproof treatment to their down feathers and why it's so good. Made the jackets. Customers came to us and said, can you make a sleeping bag for us in this? It's amazing. Sure. We got into sleeping bags. Hey, kind of not stoked with the tent selections that are out there. You know, if you guys looked at tents, and I wasn't either. So we got into the tent business. A lot of this is customer driven. Yeah. And looking at products that are out there. Customers are telling you what they want. Exactly. They're giving you the demand. They are. And then I can look at a product, and we don't necessarily, you know, invent anything. Yeah.

We just use way better materials and thoughtful design around our customers. And since. And you know this stuff because you've been doing it for the clothing. It's me, right? You're visiting these people. You're going overseas. You're doing whatever it takes to develop. And you know my sign we spend in the mountains? Yeah. We get a lot of time on the mountain looking at our products going, God, if it just did this or just did that. Yeah. And that's what we're always doing with our stuff. Especially because your gears are turning. You're thinking about that stuff. That's what you're thinking about. How to make it better. Design. Fabrics. Always. And we're relentless. And this business model was so cool about it for me because I love constantly improving our product. Yeah. You know, when we sold to Cabela's, if we changed a product that was similar, I mean, it was a massive problem. Yeah.

When we had Sitka. Because then they had to discontinue everything. You had to put in a whole new SKU. It was just, they discouraged us from making any changes once a product hit the shelves for a long period of time. Yeah. Well, we make inline changes in production now. Wow. And we will change things quickly if we find out there's either a better material, a better way to do it. Yeah. And that's really powerful stuff. Yeah. Really powerful stuff. I can only imagine. So, anyway, so what are some of the different products you're putting out? Well, I mean, that we currently have or that are coming out? Well, whatever you want to disclose. Sure. No, I mean, we've got our full range. You know, we go from skin to shell. And that's where we started on a kit and a system that takes you through a wide range of conditions. And that's just built over time. Yeah.

So, we came across a really amazing fabric called Dot Air Technology Tori invented for the Beijing Olympics. Okay. And it's got little micro openings, 100% polyester. It's our high-grade polyester yarn, so it dries really fast. It's a really thin feeling, but it's actually really durable. I don't know if you've worn it. I know Adam has. I don't think I have. And so, we took this material, we tested it, and we took it out in the hot weather. It's just, it's a game changer in the deserts. And so, we did a shirt and a pant and that. So, we've gotten, you know, expanded the range of the product line to hotter weather. Okay. And then, we've done the same with colder weather with Superdown. Okay. And then, with, like, Yukon products. Okay. And just continue to evolve and continue to solve problems in areas that we can with either the materials or design or weight reduction. Awesome.

And so, what about the camel pattern? Isn't there, is there a lighter version of what you got? Are you sticking with that camel pattern? Well, we have VS, we have Verde 2.0, the new version of Verde that just came out. Okay. I don't know if you've seen that yet. I have. And we're always playing with stuff. Yeah. You know, we're always evaluating it. You know, we'll constantly evolve every aspect of this business, every aspect of this product line. Yeah. And so, Verde 2.0 is an example of that. You know, Verde has been very popular for guys that don't like the look or the color scheme or the high contrast that VS is designed for, which is really high alpine rocks, cheap country. Yeah. And just studied Verde and figured out maybe a more effective way to do it. Opened up a little bit more, added in some grays. Yeah. And it's awesome.

I don't know if you've seen the field, but it's really, really cool. Yeah. You know, I was always impressed when you started this. I know you involved a lot of your customers. Still do. Before you even came out with a product. I blogged for. You started blogging. I blogged 18 months before I launched. And I watched those blogs. And it was pretty awesome. Wasn't that amazing? Yeah, it was. Like, you had a lot of almost like, not customers, but fans. We had a following. Yeah. And I remember we started that. And this was before social media was social media. Yeah. Recognized for how powerful it can truly be. I just blogged because my brother recommended doing it because he's like, man, you started Sitka. You're going to disappear for two years. Yeah. Like, what am I going to blog about? I can't blog about myself. We may be interested in blogging about it, building a new company, right? Yeah.

So post a week until we launched for 18 months. And I'll tell you what, that was the coolest thing. Yeah. You had a lot of feedback. Tons of feedback. And, you know, I think it appeared you were listening. Yep. You were listening. I answered every single comment on that blog for 18 months prior to launch. The owner of QU, listening to every comment. Everyone. Asking questions. And it was a great opportunity to educate. Yeah. That's what I used it as. And to listen. Share with what I was finding. Share with what I was learning about materials. And share what I knew about materials. And what great factories look like versus others. And just my discovery of building the brand. And also telling about retail, the retail model. Yes. How it really functions. What other companies are buying when they're buying inexpensive fabrics. Yes. And it was so well received. And created so much trust. Yeah.

And that's how I ended up getting my first customers. Yeah. Was by building trust. By being open, transparent. Well, now they're vested. They're with you. And they're the one. And they're our sales team. Yeah. They do. They have ownership. I mean, we built this business off of very little marketing dollars for direct-to-consumer compared to other business models out there. And it's created truly a cult-type following for this brand. That's crazy. Amazing. Amazing. Well beyond I ever imagined. Yeah. I built my original business plan. I thought we were going to be a small little niche lifestyle business out of Dexon. Yeah, right. And five and a half years later, we're a global brand. Is that what it's been? Five and a half years, yeah. It seems like yesterday. Five and a half years later, and now I've got three people working in Europe, supporting the demand over there.

I've got a guy in South Pacific, Australia, New Zealand. I haven't spent a dollar in market over there. It's all word of mouth. Wow. Like you said, your customers are your biggest salesman. It is. It is. That's awesome. And so, you know, you've been doing some amazing things. I know. Have you sent some veterans on some hunts? I've heard. We have. We outfit veterans all the time. We're going to support them. I love the programs of guys taking those guys out to the field. Those guys come back, and a lot of them are just in bad shape mentally or physically or both. And, you know, the outdoors is an awesome connection with those guys. Absolutely. Like it's always been for us. Yep. And there's peace. There's quiet. There's a bigger purpose. Yeah. And to help those guys stay warm and dry in those environments, I'm just honored. Yeah. That's awesome. Super honored.

And so, you know, like tell me about some of your recent hunting experience. I know you hunt a lot. You're out there as much as more than anybody. I don't want to be. No, you do. I got to test the product for our customers. Oh, that's right. I feel like it's part of what I signed up for and built this company. I do it for our customers. Yeah. But no, it's awesome. Yes. Do a lot of hunting. A lot of sheep hunts? Do a lot of sheep hunts. I do a northern sheep hunt every year. Because as you know, there's no true test of product in gear than putting it in those situations you face. So when you go on a hunt, you throw every product you got in the bag? No, it's a lot of new stuff. Or it's the new stuff. It's a lot of new stuff. A lot of concept stuff. Putting different mixes of kits together. It starts raining buckets. You're going out in the new stuff and just...

I'll find out if it works or not. I've had some... I put myself in some precarious situations at times. That's cool. But you really learn about your product. You really learn about your designs. You really learn about your materials. And there's no weather like the North stuff. It's nothing. You've been in it. Yeah. I have. I mean, it could be so freaking hard on you mentally, physically, your gear, and your product is when you really find the deficiencies. And it's interesting. Like, Torrey makes the best membrane in the world for waterproof-breathable fabrics. And we found its limitations. And we've presented it to Torrey. This is a few years ago. And they fixed what they thought wasn't a problem. We found a problem. And they're like, that shouldn't happen. All the lab tests this. And the lab tests tell us that. And I said, it happened. I go, you want me to take you up north?

They're like, no, no, no. We don't want to up north. We believe you. Right? But they love it. Yeah. Like, this is what really happens. It's helping them too. Oh, yeah. And what's great about Torrey is they, we're the largest account globally now. Yeah. And I get direct access to all their scientists. Yeah. In the development rooms. There you go. And we're always working to prove. Well, you're probably one of their biggest customers. We're the number one. And their best referral source ever. Because we're transparent. I tell everybody about Torrey. Yeah. Japanese aren't boastful because that's their culture. Yeah. So, yeah, they're awesome. That's great. Super fun stuff. Well, good. And so, what? A sheep hunt up north, meaning doll, stone. Go stone sheep hunting up with Gun to Who. There you go. This summer. Should be a fun hunt. I'm taking Donald Trump Jr. along with me as well.

We're both going to hunt. And this has been booked for a while, but his dad became elected. I called him after. I said, are you still going to be able to go? And he's like, heck yeah, I'm going. I wouldn't miss it. There you go. Okay, what about Secret Service? He's like, yeah, I think they're going to have to go with us. I'm like, oh, that's going to be awesome. Now you're going to have to outfit them. We will. And he's like, let's get in really good shape and bury them. I'm like, they've got to stay with you. Yeah. Should be interesting. It'll be fun. What an honor, man. Those are such good people, too. I tell you what, he is the most down-to-earth honor. Yeah. He's spoken a lot of these banquets. I've seen him. He's great, man. Shook his hand. He really is. Super guy. I look at how the press makes him out to be versus the reality because I get to know him. And it's like, man.

Speaking of that, I know you've spent a lot of time with the Trump family. Just tell us a little bit about that. What are you doing out there? What's the agenda? I got to know Donald Trump Jr. when he became a customer. I wrote him a handwritten thank you note. I mean, we send out a lot of handwritten thank you notes that are business. It's part of our culture. You know, I do that with kind of all the high-profile people that come through because we know who buys from us. And he called me on the phone after I said the note. And he said, hey, I'm going sheep hunting with Jim Shockey. Got some questions on product gear. Right. And that kind of started the friendship. We just connected. Had a lot to share about business, about life, a lot in common. And just became really tight friends.

And I got involved with introducing his dad and Junior and Eric to the hunting community last year when his dad was, you know, obviously running for president. Sure. So we could share their authentic story around hunting because not a lot of people are going to associate Donald Trump with hunters or hunting. And I want to make sure it was clear why. Yeah. That it is authentic. Eric and Don Jr. are just diehard hunters. Yes. Just like you and I. They love it and they believe it and their dad's going to support their passion because he understands it. I know Junior went out with a good friend of mine, Josh Horrocks, lion hunting. Josh had nothing but rave reviews. Real deal, man. Packed the lion out just as far as Josh took turns. The gear, two feet of snow, the whole thing. Like a legit guy. Oh, yeah. He is. He is. And they're just good people. Yeah.

I always think, you know, you meet someone or you meet somebody's kids. Yeah. It's always a true sign of their character. It is. If their kids are down to earth, grounded, good people. Just solid people. It does the same way. He's like, Junior's like, God, I hope he wins because he's a pain that has to work for. He never lets me have a day off. He never lets me have a day off. And he's like, I'm looking forward to saying I can do more hunting. Yeah. I can be my own boss. You know, give him something to do. Keep him busy. Exactly. But I'm sure he leans on his kids a lot. He does. He does. He's got them plenty busy. Oh, they're really busy now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Busy running his big, crazy organization. Yeah. So I know you've done some hunting down in Mexico. I mean, you've been all over. Yeah. I've been to a lot of different places.

I've been to Mexico, all over the Western United States, Canada, Alaska. Yeah. Been on the hunt in New Zealand. Yeah. So, yeah, I get to, you know, travel the world and, you know, test our stuff and shoot photos. Sure. I mean, it's all that. You know, it just teaches me so much about the products. Yeah. And the different situations we can face. And, you know, you always learn something. Yeah. And it's always good stuff. Do you have a favorite hunt we can talk about or like this kind of experience? I love dull sheep. Okay. I love white sheep. And that black shale is magical as you've seen them. Yeah. I mean, in that country, it's like magic. Yeah. Those are the ones I like. I like the hard ones. I did a hunt this year in the Yukon. Brendan was with me. Okay. And, you know, we're always great guinea pigs for outfitters. Yeah. They always have that area where. Nobody's been. Of course.

We haven't been for 20 years. We can't get anyone in there. Nobody would go. No one's stupid enough to go in there. And so Brendan's like, I'll do it. Well, we both are. Right. We'll go. Yeah. Absolutely. Take us in. We even ask. Like, where are the places you don't take clients? You don't have people in getting out. So we're always those guys that will sign up for that. We did a big, you know, big hunt this year in the Yukon. It was tough. I mean. Yeah. I don't know if you've hunted in Bonnet Plumes area. I've been in there. Yeah. That's right. You have. I mean, you know, it's just steep and nasty and rocky. Straight up and straight down. A lot of that same country your dad killed his big ram in. Yep. And, you know, there's no trails in there. Like, Arctic Red's got trails from the caribou. There's no trails. It's steep, rocky, nasty, loose rock.

And we ended up walking every day for 10 straight days. Just the way that sheep hunt went where he killed the sheep at the end of the day. Yeah. And got up the next day and walked again. Jeez. We never got a chance to set up camp. So we had fully loaded packs for 10 days. You're sleeping out in your clothes. You're just sleeping in your clothes. And we walked 10 hour days. 10 straight days. Probably did, you know, 150, 200 miles. Wow. Nasty stuff. That's aggressive. That's awesome, though. Yeah. Those are the ones you remember. Oh. When we spent our time up there, I mean, Garth and I just slept on the side of a mountain the entire night. Like, it's crazy. It is. You know, in a little tiny cave and scrunched up. Those are the ones you remember, though, right? Yeah. You never forget it. I know. I love the hard hunts. I love the grind. Yep. It's awesome. So, anyway.

Well, how about young kids coming up through the ranks and want to make a living in hunting? Do you have any advice for people that want to make a living doing what they love? Do what you love, first of all. I mean, it's made such a difference in my career and my life. And I encourage young people to come to me and say, God, I want to start a business. I want to do this. I want to do that. Or people even want a job. Yeah. They're not hunters. I say, and they're young. I said, why? Yeah. Well, I just think your company's cool. And I said, would you like hunting? Well, no, I don't hunt. But go find something you love. Yeah. Take the opportunity while you're young and do that. Yeah. Do a big soul search. Anything's possible. Yeah. I mean, anything is. I started with nothing. No experience in industry. Just backpacking back when you were young. It was love. Yeah. Right?

And if you love what you do, you can go find a way to make a living. Brendan's my first. I love the example of Brendan. Yeah. What does Brendan love? Hunting. Hunting. What does Brendan turn out? Archery, elk hunt. And what does Brendan turn out? Sheep. And sheep. We love sheep. We call them sheep 3PO. The only way to get Brendan to stop talking about sheep is like, see 3PO, you got to shut them off. That's awesome. But it's true though. You can find a way to make, if you become an expert in something you love, you can create a living out of it. So Brendan started off, and maybe he's still doing it, but he started off with heading up the Outfitter Program. He did. Yeah. He was my first person to join me at KU. I remember. I remember. You brought him down to the office. Yep. And he's such a good guy. He's a good dude. I mean, he is. He's intense like you. Very intense. Very intense.

Super intense. Incredibly loyal. Yeah. Which is hard to find these days. Yeah, it is hard to find. Brutal. I know. And you always have my back. You can't learn loyalty. No, you can't. You're either born with it or you don't have it. Exactly. And he's highly competitive, and he is just lives it, breathes it. One of the most competitive people I know. He is. Ex-athlete, you know, wrestled in Ohio State in college. Yep. Grinder. And, I mean, talk about a fun guy to go hunting with. Oh, yeah. Have you ever been hunting with him? Oh, I've just been around him a little bit. You laughed? In fact, up there at Dooling Stone, I was up there. And, I mean, I woke him up, and he came out the door and, of course, gave me a rash like Brendan does. Oh, he just crushed me. I know. He's awesome. He's always in a good mood. Yeah. Always positive. And, yeah, we have great times together in the mountains.

But, yeah, he was the first one on board. And, you know, when I left, when the whole thing went down with Sitka, he kind of found out about it through the grapevine, called me, said, what's going on? I told him. He called them, said I'm off the pro staff. Called me and said, what are we doing next? I'm in. I got your back. And he was the only one. And I was like. Yep. He'll be with you forever. Never forget it, man. Yeah. And I'll never forget that time. Only person. Yep. I've got those guys in my life. That's phenomenal. Right? As you get older, you kind of think back, you know, I don't need a lot of friends. These are the good ones. Right? And usually you can count them on less than one hand. It gets that way. Yeah. It does. And the older you get, the more important it is. It is. It is. And so, yeah, I mean, I'll never forget it.

And he has just been an awesome person out of my life, having the business. He's done so much. I mean, he's built us a giant guide now for the program of the best of the best. And the guys he's built that he's brought in, I mean, they're just like his friends. Yep. They love Brandon. He always takes care of them and can talk the talk and walk the walk. Yeah. Do you see that piece in New York Times that comes out? No. Well, you sent me that it was coming out. Yeah. I didn't know if it's officially come out. It comes out tomorrow. Okay. Front page. And it's about sheep hunting. It's about hunting. Its focus is on sheep hunting. Yeah. It talks about hunting and conservation in a way that's never been done in mainstream media. In the New York Times. On the front page. Are you nervous? I've read it. It's awesome. Have you read it yet? I haven't read it. I haven't had a chance. It's awesome.

Well, it's been busy here at the show. Well, we were nervous, right? I was introduced to John Branch, the writer. He's won a Pulitzer Prize for writing for New York Times and does these one or two feature pieces every year. Yeah. Wow. And I was like, man, it's the New York Times. People wouldn't get interviewed by him as we're putting this together. I introduced him to Brendan.

Sheep 3PO took over. There you go. Right? Crushed. Introduced him to everybody that he knows. And as it was getting written, everyone's like, God, are you nervous? Are you scared? I'm like, my gut tells me he's going to do it right. He's going to tell the truth. Oh, he did. You're front and center. Well, we'll get a split scene. Wait till you read it. Let's see how it's perceived. It'll be awesome. Oh, it's been perceived. It came out digitally yesterday or the day before. And it's been awesome. And the coolest part about it, Jay, is people that don't hunt that read it, the response has been, I had no idea. Wow. I thought you just chopped their heads off and left their bodies. And looked manly. And I thought you guys were just trophy hunters. And we're like, no, that's illegal. Yeah, that's illegal. No hunter does that. Waste of wildlife is a pretty big deal. Those aren't hunters.

Those are criminals. Yeah. And that's the coolest part of it. Yeah. And people that were anti-hunters that read it even responded like, man, I had no idea. I think this is awesome what you guys do. I had no idea you guys saved wild sheep. Wow. Single-handedly. Crazy. Crazy. Big, big for hunting. I mean, that's, you know, I get a lot of, I'm getting a lot of mainstream media opportunities with, because of Kuyu, I've got a great PR firm out of San Francisco. And I feel like it's my, having this opportunity to be able to give back. Yeah. And give back through mainstream media to tell the truth about hunting. Yeah. And share with them the reality of hunting, why it's so important. It's awesome. To all of us. I feel like it's. And you've got a good platform to do it from. It's awesome. And I feel like it's just something, I have the chance to do it and I want to do it for

our market, our customer, for our heritage, for conservation, wildlife. Well, and as your company grows, you'll continually have more and more opportunities to do that. When you're standing in your empty garage, nobody's going to listen to you. No. But as you grow, as you grow. Exactly. And you continue to do things that have more opportunities. I think it's such an awesome opportunity for hunting. Yeah. And it's such a, obviously, huge aspect and impact in my life and my family. And it's been a generational thing in my family. And to be able to give back and do things like that is just awesome. Now with conservation and Trump in office and having access to the Department of Interior now. Absolutely. And be working with them on what we can get done over the next four years. I've got a few ideas. Love to hear them. We've got some wild horse problems. It's on the list. I know we do.

I love to hear that. Yep. And so. It needs to move really high on the list. We can do that. Okay. Yeah. We've got some major problems. I know we do. I know we do. We've talked about it. And I know you've witnessed it. You've hunted some of my favorite units there in Southern Nevada. So that was on a buck this year. Freaking ran on a wild horse and blew it. Oh. And those are actually lower densities of horses. When you see high densities of horses, it's infuriating. Oh, gosh. Well, they're crushing the spring. Well, besides what they've done in Habitat. There's a lot going on there. There is. No. So we've got four years to make a lot of change. Yeah. Hopefully eight. And my goal is to do it. Well, we know we've got four. Yeah. I don't want to bank on eight. If we've got eight, even better, right? It needs to go high on the list.

But, no, we have an opportunity to make as much change as has been made for hunting, conservation, wildlife, and habitat that we've had since Roosevelt. It's awesome. I agree with you 100%. I agree with you 100%. I want to do everything I can to make sure we take advantage of it. It's awesome. Well, anyway, so much appreciate you coming on this podcast, spending some time with us, Jason. For sure. I'm honored. Can't thank you enough for your partnership with Epic. You were the first guy to sign up. I told you I always got your back, Jay. We love it. No matter what you're doing, I'll support you. No, we sure. So friends do. We sure appreciate you. For sure. Anyway, I know we'll be doing cool things together forever. So appreciate that. Look forward to coming back on anytime you want to have me. Wish you guys the best of luck, and we'll go from there. Thanks a lot. Thanks, buddy.