EP 86: Archery Polar Bear Hunt and Other Adventures With Jim Winjum

We got drug in that box for 750 miles. It's important to have a good pair of boots on a hunt like that, but you can get real heavy quick when you kill something and need to get out. Montana, we do have a lot of opportunities. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors Podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, Jason Carter and Adam Bronson here with the Epic Outdoors Podcast, coming at you right here in Cedar City, Utah, southern Utah. Wow. During the scouting season, we shouldn't be on a podcast. We should be out scouting, Bronson. Yeah, we are. And it's hot and it's midday, so here we are. AC feels good. It does feel good. So anyway, we got a pretty fun episode. We're going to get Jim Wengem, one of the owners there at Kinetrek Boots, on with us. Super good guy and great hunter. Before we do, we want to thank Under Armour for the sponsorship of this podcast, as well as sponsoring Epic Outdoors, our magazine and guide programs and all kinds of cool things that they do and allow us to do for you guys. So anyway, we appreciate them, appreciate you as our listener, and hopefully this is a pretty fun episode.

If any of you are looking to pick up a new long-range rifle, you got a great tag coming up this fall. We encourage you to give the guys at Red Rock Precision a call. They're great guns. We've shot these guns for five or seven years, six or seven years, I guess it's probably been.

Awesome shooters. Never feel like I can't make a shot that I need to make. So give Kurt or Todd a call, 801-391-7840. They can kind of work up the caliber that you're interested in, scope combination, all that. They know what they're talking about. Or you can visit them online, redrockprecision.com. We had the Hickory Indian Reservation biologist, Kyle Tater, on the other day. And of course, they've got some elk hunting opportunities still available for this year. Great bulls. If you want to go on a great elk hunt, you might get on Hickoryahunt.com. That's J-I-C-A-R-I-L-L-A hunt.com. Or you can give Kyle a call at 575-759-3255. And they've got, like I say, some late season hunts out there. Incredible kill rates. They've even got kill rates up to 85% on their archery hunts. And so, great opportunity for guys that are looking for an elk hunt for this year, 2018.

Let's jump into this episode. We'll get Jim on the line. How's things going up there? Good. Good. We're busy. I know. And as you guys finally got out of winter in Bozeman, your snow finally melt? Yeah, no kidding. Boy, it's been a wet, wet, nasty spring. Cold, hard winter. Jeez. Well, down here, we've been in a drought for the last 14 months. I know. I know. It's just amazing. It's like all the storm surge just kind of went right to the north. I mean, hammered us and left you guys high and dry. Yeah. We're definitely dry. We're definitely dry. So, how was that polar bear hunt you were going on there in April? It was quite interesting. I came back. I think I'm three inches shorter than when I left. What do you mean? You took your boots off? What? So, just the pounding that you take inside of the... I don't know. Have you ever seen those little Comtex boxes, the big sled? Oh, yeah.

Well, there's no suspension in that thing. Oh. And that ice is not smooth. And we got drug in that box for 750 miles. Wow. And it's just absolutely bone-jarring. So, your chiropractor got a visit when you got home? Oh. I mean, we went the first 20 miles. And, of course, you can't communicate because you're just being drugged by a great big snowman. You're just holding on. And, oh, you're just hanging on for dear life. And I crawled out of that box. And I was like... I mean, I thought I couldn't even lift my left leg. I think I had permanent nerve damage. And I'm just doing a snow angel on the ice. I'm just like... I'm like, I am hurt. Let alone it was probably 50 degrees below zero. Oh, yeah. Unbelievably cold. But we kind of figured it out after that. I was there with a partner of mine. And we put everything, all of our clothes into bags.

And our big down sleeping bag, we, you know, sat on those. And that still wasn't enough. You had to kind of do a little bit of a chest press, you know, to... Jeez. You know, just to keep the pressure off your back. And, I mean, it was just like I dislocated my jaw a couple times. And my partner actually broke a tooth. Come on. It is no violent. Come on. I was just about to say, did you need to wear a mouth guard? But literally, you broke teeth? Oh, you should have. Like, I would definitely recommend, you know, a football mouth guard for sure. I mean, absolutely. Well, add that to the gear list. Violent. Violent. Let me think about it. No, I'll pass. No. Well, you're giving us some good stuff here. We better dive into this a little more because I'm sure there are some listeners that already thought about going and doing it or whatnot. So where did you go? Where were you at?

Let's give us the full scoop. Well, it's Nanevit. You know, it's a new province that they broke off several years ago of the Northwest Territory. So it's really on the eastern side. So we flew from here to Minneapolis and then to Toronto, then to Montreal, then to Ekalet, which is kind of the hub. And then we flew north from there to another place called Pond Inlet and then Arctic Bay. Wow. So that was the way north. I started writing them down, and after four airports, I had to give up. I couldn't keep up. Yeah. It's quite a trip to get there. We landed the one big plane. I mean, I couldn't see anything out the window. It was like just a raging blizzard. And they sat down that jet on an ice runway. You know, I guess they do it all the time. They got the tires chained up or anything on that thing.

Back east, they see two inches, and they shut down the whole Denver Airport or anywhere else. It's like, geez. Yeah, those guys, they just lived. I mean, those turboprop planes, they're the first plane that they've landed on ice runways. And they're just the workhorse. Of course, when we took off, I thought, well, we're grounded. You couldn't see anything outside. And I thought, well, we're here for days. You know, we're stuck. And they're like, load them up. We're going to go. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. Commercial bush pilots and commercial airplanes is what it sounds like. Commercial bush pilots. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. You know, no visibility. 40-mile-an-hour wind. Just zero visibility. Smelling like crazy. And, I mean, they're literally having to plow the plane out because it's drifted in. And we go and hop on that thing.

And I'm like, man, they're just going to have to turn on the edges. We're going to go straight up because it's blowing so hard. That was pretty much the case. What month was that? When did you go? It was in March. Oh, was it? I thought it might have been the first of April. It was in March, huh? Yeah, well, we were there across first of April. Okay. You know, it takes you a couple days to get up there. And then so we spent the night in Arctic Bay, and then we went out the next day. You know, when you go with the three boxes, you know, there's a box for the dogs and a box for each of the hunters and all the gear and equipment and everything. And you're just drugged by sleds. And I kept asking, how fast are we going? Because it felt like we were going 100. Can you see? Are you inside the box? You can't see? Yeah.

The little window, you know, that you kind of scrape with a credit card because it gets all iced over. And you're sniffing gas fumes. I mean, you're in the exhaust, right? Oh. Well, yeah, of the snowmobile. It's funny that you say about the gas fumes because we actually stayed in like a little miniature wall tent, I guess, is the best way to describe it. And they parked those sleds, you know, the three of them. And they pitched two tents in between them. And so that tent that we were in, it's maybe 10 by 8, something like that. So it's pretty tight, pretty, you know, pretty cozy. And it's an insulated tent, which, you know, it's kind of almost like Sinsulate or something. And then they just run Coleman, you know, two-burner stove, you know, that they pump up because you can't run any gas because it's too cold. Yeah. You know, like propane wouldn't work because it's too cold.

So you're using quite white Coleman fuel. Yeah, exactly. They just pump up and run it. And you just run those open burners right in that tent. Oh, yeah. You just hope you wake up in the morning. Yeah, exactly. I mean, my partner at one point, because ours kept going out, you know. And so you're like carbon monoxide. And then you get straight fuel. And it was like, whoa, that's probably not good for sure. I wonder what the liability release looks like. Oh, yeah. I don't know. The fine print of that hunt contract, the fine print of that one is probably a doozy. Yeah. We're not responsible for you huffing. Right. I know what my partner says. He says, you taste that? And I go, yeah, what is that? Is that ether? He goes, no, I think it's brain cells.

Oh, geez. Well, cool. So then take us on. So you get out of the tent for the first time. You're headed out to hunt. What happens? Yeah. So the first time we, the first bear that we saw was pretty cool. It was a sow with a cub and first polar bear I've ever seen in the wild, you know. And so that was pretty neat. And it, basically, the hunt just involves covering miles and miles and miles. I mean, I just can't even tell you. And it's so vast. It's just, the horizon is just nothing. You know what I mean? So you're not only snow blind, but there's nothing to see. And you're trying to glass with, you know, 20-mile-an-hour wind that 40 blows zero, which is just freeze your eyeball in just a couple seconds. So glassing is a very, very difficult task. But you would still look for elevated positions. And they're tough. I mean, the Eskimo guys, boy, they are tough, tough, tough.

They're used to it. And they're very good hunters. I mean, I was impressed with their tracking ability. And, you know, they could judge the size of a bear. They could judge the health of a bear, obviously, if it was sow and cubs or boar. You know, like, at one point he was trying to tell me, he says, yeah, that's just a, you know, that's a skinny seven-footer. I'm like, skinny, how do you, what are you talking about? He goes, look at this heel pad. You know, you can tell the pad, he's not healthy. You know, he's a skinny bear. I'm like, are you kidding me? I mean, I, you know, I understand kind of the width of a track for judging the, you know, the overall size of the bear. But, boy, they take it to a whole other level. Did you ever prove up on it? Because I had it called BS.

Show me the skinny seven-footer. Yeah, yeah, exactly. A lot of them we wouldn't even go after, you know, because you just look and say, well, that's not big enough. So I guess it's. You're really looking for that single boar. Yeah. It's safe to say when he knows it's not a bear you're going to track down to ground truth. It's, yeah, it's a, he's a malnourished. He hasn't had a seal in about 45 days. He can throw that out. He can throw that out knowing there's no way that you're ever going to prove him wrong. Yeah, exactly. Right. So he's safe to do that. Well, good. So did you glass bears? Did you cut tracks? We saw a lot of bears. And it's amazing. I mean, those bears, every, every single bit of structure that you had on that ice, you know, their pressure ridges or a big iceberg or even sometimes where the ice meets the shoreline.

You know, there, there would be disruption, broken up ice. And there was bear tracks around every single piece like that. That's where they, that's how they fish. How many there are. They, they're feeding. Yeah, they, they basically eat seals. Yeah. And so they catch those seals. And so seal, that's the amazing part is, you know, you think about six feet of ice. Well, those seals are mammals. And they, you know, they can only hold their breath for so long. And they have to, to have air holes, which is pretty amazing because I look around and I'm like, I don't see any air holes. I don't get it. I don't get how they do it. But anyway, those bears are just, just wicked predators on the seals. You know, I mean, they're. They come up for air and they're, they're waiting for them. And they grab them. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, wow.

And so we saw a few, you know, cause it was the seal, you know, when they, when they can ever have their pups, you know, and, and they actually do that in a snow cave. And so we saw lots of places where the bears would, you know, sniff along there and then tear out the snow cave and, and, you know, dig for the seals. Wow. Yeah. Eat, eat them. They eat the whole thing, you know. And occasionally we'd find one where they got one and there's just a big blood smear and that's it. You know, I mean, they just eat the whole thing. Wow. So pretty, pretty wicked, tough life. I mean, for anything up there, it's, it's, it's, uh, not unique for any of them. That's their niche. There's nothing else that could live right there doing what they do. So we hear. And all the bears, the bears that we saw were, I mean, where they're cut up and scarred from fighting and, and all of their noses.

I mean, it just, I mean, wow. It's, it's, they're, they're just quite an animal. Pretty impressive. So you hear once in a while, these polar bears will, you know, if they smell you, they're going to come for you. Like where other bears are usually scared for you, you know, scared of you, even a brown bear's scared of you, generally speaking. I mean. Right. Will these bears come for you? Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, they, uh, you know, it's like you're, you're staying out there. It's like, that's one of the reasons for the dogs, you know, I mean, it's, it's obviously, it's the traditional way that they've always hunted. You know, it's with, it used to be the old dog sleds, which I can't imagine how much more difficult that was than having the sewing machines. But, uh, they just kind of have a, a natural, not a fear of dogs, but they're just annoyed by them.

And those dogs are, you know, big huskies and really tough, tough animals themselves. And, uh, they kind of, you know, uh, take turns almost like a wolf pack would run, would fight with a bear. That's almost what it reminded me of, you know, like one would go in and try to get close and nip at its heel or something. The bear would charge that one. The other one come in from the other side. So it was that kind of, uh, uh, you know, uh, using their numbers, you know, against it. It's not one-on-one for sure. So we're. But yeah, those bears, uh, will come like they, we had them come into, into the camp at night and the dogs would just go ballistic, you know, and that's pretty Western really quick in the dark. And you're like, huh, we got something out there that wants to eat us. And wasn't it daylight fairly? I mean, for the most, I mean, there was. I don't know.

It was about the same, you know, because it's right at, it's right at what they're calling spring. And so, you know, you have to realize that you're so far north. I think the sun goes down about November 15th and it doesn't come up till February 15th. So, um, so you're really kind of in that transition. So we were gaining a tremendous amount of light every day. You know, you're gaining like 15 minutes or something. I mean, it's, uh, you know, it's just crazy. And then it's, then it's light full time, you know, by, by mid May. Yeah. Um, so, so pretty weird, weird, uh, environment, but super cold. I mean that, you know, you're on six feet of ice. And so we would, we would sleep on that ice and they would lay down some cardboard boxes and then caribou hides. And then your, I think they had some mats that they put down as well.

And then your, you know, sleeping pad and, and then your sleeping bag. And it was, uh, there every, every single morning you woke up in that, in that tent and it was 30 to 40 below every, every morning. It's a bit frosty. Oh, yeah. Was it, so was, does Bob the one that went with you or when you said, yeah. No, just a partner. Actually it was a hunting partner. I ran into in Tajikistan on my Marco Polo hunt. And he kind of put it in my head. And, uh, you know, one thing led to another. I said, well, yeah, that's kind of on my list. All right. So be careful, be careful what you ask about in the hunting world. Well, yeah. Well, tell us. So I guess, did both of you, um, both of you were there to hunt and tell us how, I guess, the encounter with the bears you took happened. Yeah. So, so I was, uh, committed to the bow and, and my friend Charlie, he was bow or rifle.

He, he, you know, didn't, didn't care one way or the other. And, uh, so I, I think I was in about what was it? Second or third day. I think we, we lost one day due to weather, you know, like if they get a white out, you just can't see. And so there's, there's almost, and then you don't, you lose track as well. So there's no point in really moving. Yeah. So I think it, we, we finally cleared up and it was day three and we went out and, and hit a pressure ridge and we saw a sow and a cub. And that was, that was kind of cool just to see that, you know, that tiny little cub bear. And, you know, the protective mama and stuff and took some pictures and thought that was kind of cool. And, uh, we came back to the pressure ridge and there was tracks on it right there. And here, I guess they, they kind of sleep during the day.

And so a bear had, uh, he jumped up, you know, because the dogs are barking and off they go. So they turned the dogs loose. And, and, uh, basically it was, uh, kind of caught him in a good spot. He was just on a big, long pressure ridge. I mean, like maybe a mile and a half long. And so we were able to just close the distance on him and the bears, uh, the dogs, uh, kind of bathe the bear up. And, and he, he kind of, you know, had just kind of backed up against, you know, some of the ice structure. And I was able to work in for a shot. And, uh, my guide was pretty nervous. He's like, shoot from here. I'm like, I can't shoot from here. Yeah, it's 180 yards. I can't. I can't see his chest. He wanted me to shoot about 50. I'm like, well, I got to go closer. I can't see anything. I can't take it. Yeah.

They, they, you know, I probably did not have, uh, you know, a healthy respect from, you know, generations of being, you know, accosted by these, by these animals. He definitely did. Uh, but anyway, so I, so I moved up and was able to get into position and made a good shot. How far? Which is a challenge. Because, I mean, boy, you got clothing that you wouldn't believe, you know. So, like, you're, like, if you want to picture what that's like, you draw your bow back where you'd have normally anchor. And then try anchoring out an inch away from your face. Yeah. And try to see where the arrow goes. If it doesn't go to the same place, I guarantee you that. No. So, so. So, yeah, pretty challenging. So, how far was the shot? It was 45 yards. Was it? Is, uh, what it ended up being. I hit him a little left, but, uh, but it was definitely lethal. You could see right away. Yeah. Wow.

So, now they say you, what, you can't bring him in, right? Can't bring him into the States yet? Yeah. Yeah, it's, yeah, they, they currently have a ban on, on bringing the hides back in. And it's, which is really kind of ironic because they're actually increasing in population. I think part of it is that, you know, you see the, as, as the, you know, the warming is occurring. The bears towards the way southern part of Hudson Bay and that area, of course, they're, they're really struggling. Because they don't have ice. They need that ice to be able to hunt. Yeah. And so that, you know, that, you know, the, the bears up north are doing really, really well. Um, but the public opinion ends up being that the, the polar bear as a species is not doing well. And that, you know, that public opinion is, is kind of a hard thing to overcome. Yeah.

You know, it's, a lot of times it doesn't, the biological data doesn't matter. Just like grizzlies and wolves in the western U.S. Same type of thing. Yeah, same type of thing. Which is unfortunate, you know, that, I mean, it, it must be really frustrating for biologists that have data and, you know, they study it and they really know. I mean, I can't pretend to be a biologist or know what they know. But, um, you know, it must be frustrating to be then overridden by, you know, political winds. Jeez. Well, uh, I know you guys produce snow boots and winter boots. I mean, did you have to produce a special polar boot? Did you do a prototype or whatever? No, I, I had everything on it that I could. I mean, I was, I was at the max and I still was using, uh, the little, you know, carbon, uh, heaters and things like that. And it was, it was a challenge to stay warm. There's no question.

I mean, like, you know, like even on my hands, I wore great big expedition mitts over the top of, you know, Merino glove liners. Mm-hmm. And if you, you know, sometimes you can't do anything with those and you take those off and within a minute you were numb. Mm-hmm. And it was very, very difficult to warm up. Wow. I don't think. So it's challenging. I mean, staying warm, I frosted my nose and I frosted three of my toes on my, you know, right, right foot. I didn't even know it. I mean, you just don't even feel it. It's good. It's time for Kennetrek to make some polar boots. Or we hit the owner of losing toes. We got a problem. I'm just thinking, what am I doing here? I signed up for this. I wrote a check for this. Yeah. Great. Exactly. I paid for this torture. Well, that's got to still be, I mean, like I said, it was on your list of something to do. Yeah.

And the, I mean, the remoteness of where you're at and the primitiveness, so to speak, of how you got to go about it. Even though you do got snow machines, it's not like you're on our skadoos like we got down here. I mean, it's pretty primitive and that's pretty neat. I mean, like I was thinking, anything happens and pretty much you die, you know what I mean? Because you run out of heating fuel, you die, you run out of, you know, you have an accident with a snow machine. I mean, you're not walking out of there. I mean, we went 750 miles. Wow. Direct behind that snow machine in that sled box. How do you even pack enough fuel? Like, what are they? They have a 55-gallon drum on the back of each one of those sleds. Wow. That they drag around. And, you know, I mean, it's not like you can, you know, start a fire to warm up. There's no nothing. Nothing to burn, yeah.

Even water is a big deal, you know, because you think about that. There's no open water at all for a water source. So that was a big management thing that they did is they would go and they would cut bricks, you know, blocks out of the snow. And then they would melt and they had it right down to a science. You know, they would fill up, you know, seven. And they would start the stoves and they would fill up, like, seven thermoses. And that got you through that night's dinner and the next day's lunch and whatever water you needed before you made the air. Stuff we don't even have to ever even think of. I thought we were roughing it with a mountain house at 80 degrees. I don't know. No. No. Yeah, you have no idea how. I mean, it's quite a system, you know, to cut those blocks. You know how long it takes to melt, you know, hard to know like that. I mean, it takes forever.

It's just a big system that they have. But they've been doing it for a long, long time. So you'd recommend them, I mean, even though you lost half your teeth. No.

Oh, yeah, for sure. The guys were, I mean, I have a lot of respect for them because they were fantastic hunters. And they're pretty tied in, you know, naturally. Oh, yeah. You know, like, they fish a lot. I think they hunt and honor whales. I'm hearing some of these stories, you know, of their survival. I mean, it's pretty amazing. They're still doing it. Yeah. Wow, that is fun. Oh, yeah, they hunt seals. They hunt seals all the time. That brings a whole new meaning to subsistence hunting, you know, literally. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. For sure. But just so cold. I mean, I just can't imagine being in the dark for, you know, three months out of the year. I'm getting depressed. I'm starting to get to shoot myself right now. I'm getting depressed. Yeah. Let's talk about what's the normal price tag on a hunt like that? What does a guy expect? Price range.

Oh, I think they run about $40,000 or so. I mean, we got a little bit of a better deal because there was two of us and things like that. But kind of knew a guy who knew a guy, that type of deal. But $40,000 plus, you know, you got your tips and you're $50,000, $55,000. Oh, yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah. And then the thing is if they overturn that ban, you know, if they do a set aside on that ban, which they really should, I mean, because it obviously would help their economy tremendously. And, you know, it's kind of a natural part of their cycle that's been disrupted. Yeah. But, boy, if they did that, that price would go way up. Yeah. So your bear's going to be 10 and just waiting for you if they ever do lift it? Yeah. I've got some friends in Canada, and so we'll wet tan it, you know, and then keep it frozen. It'll last for 30 years, you know.

And my hope is that someday they'll, you know, they'll reverse that. I'd love to bring that back to the Kinetrick facility. Yeah. That would be a showstopper to have a polar bear. Well, yeah. Tell us. Didn't you guys just, I think Chris paid you guys a visit, your brother maybe, this spring. Yeah. He was up there bear hunting. Didn't you guys just expand your headquarters and warehouse and stuff up there? Yeah. We basically had a lot of customers that would want to come and see the place, you know, because they're big, you know, Kinetrick boot fans. And so we, that's one of the things that I didn't realize, you know, that we would have that. Because I thought, well, you know, as long as we've got the little brown UPS truck and the internet, we could do business anywhere. Yeah. Nobody wants to come and talk to us. They kind of want to see the place, you know.

Well, it's kind of like, well, they're going to come. We need to show them something. It's kind of like when you guys are around at the trade shows for the couple of months, they like to compare stuff, try a couple half-size differences on, or just see everything you got. Kind of be overwhelmed. People get attached to people, too, you know. They like to. Oh, yeah. It's more than just a product at times. I mean, it is. We all go to Amazon and buy batteries or whatever. I get that. But it's a little different. You know, this hunting industry's relationships and personal and all of that. So, yeah, you expanded your warehouse as well as kind of a, I guess we'd call it, just like a showroom area for off-the-street traffic? Yeah, we call it a visitor center. You know, we don't really want to out-compete our dealers or anything like that.

But if somebody has special needs or they just want to see the place, I mean, we definitely, I think we have like 65 mounts in there. Wow. I mean, you know, partner Bob and I have been very, very fortunate over the years, you know, drawing sheep tags and winning and all of that. And so we've kind of got a couple lifetimes worth of, you know, trophies that we've got preserved in there. Wow. That's pretty awesome. That's cool. Yeah, a lot of hunters. What I really love is when the little kids come in, you know. Oh, yeah. They're just starry-eyed and just like, look at where that was from. Look at that. I've never seen that animal before that. Yeah, that's cool. That's my favorite part. Really cool. Yeah. Well, good. Well, tell us a little bit more about it. Did it expand the warehouse portion as well, besides the trophy room?

Yeah, we, with the building that we're in, you know, because we continue to grow. And so we took over another, I think it's about 11,000 feet or so that we were leasing to the Sims, you know, the fishing company, Sims Fishing Products, the waders. And they were leasing that from us. And then we just moved in and occupied that as of April 1. Wow. So that's, uh. Yeah, it's getting bigger and bigger. I guess that's a good thing, Jim. I'm not sure.

Some days yes, some days no. Yeah. Just a little bit more headaches, too. Sometimes, yeah. If you ask my brother, he'd say the same thing. I don't know if it's better or not. Yeah. It's tough. Growing's tough. We feel that as well. Finding that sweet spot and, and, but, but also not wanting to leave something on the table or, you know, something not, not, you know, seen to fruition that you may be capable of. There's always more you feel like you can do and probably can, but then how much more of your, quote, extra time does actually, that actually take from you to how much of a net gain does that give you? And there's, it's, it's a struggle. Well, we, we've always been taught that, you know, if you're not growing, you're dying. And so it's, but it, but I'm not, I'm not so sure I buy into that.

Sometimes it's nice just to stay an even keel and mind your own business and do a good business, you know, run a good business and go hunt polar bears once in a while. Yeah. That's true. That's true, too. So what about, what about how have you and Bob are done on the draws this year? Anything big for you to look forward to this year? Um, yeah, I've, I've got, uh, I haven't really drawn any takes, but I, I won that, uh, uh, doll sheep hunt in, in at the Arizona, uh, banquet a couple of years ago. And, and so I basically, uh, booked a hunt and that's coming up for me this July. So I'm up with, uh, Ghana river and in the Northwest territories trying to complete my archery grand slam, which is a big deal. Wow. Yeah. I keep telling myself, is this the chance? Cause it's still a bow and it's a sheep and they don't really go together. Yeah. Polar bears and bows don't either. Yeah.

If anybody, anybody can do it, you can. They don't. I keep telling myself, well, it's just the chance. It's a good chance. It is. They got a great area. Good areas. For our tricks. Still a bow hunt. That's right. Anything deer elk wise and here in the Lord 48, any tags other than Montana? I'm sure you're hunting your own state for you. Oh yeah. Yeah. Of course, of course with Montana, we do have, you know, a lot of opportunities every year. And, and, and I think I have a, uh, actually booked a white tail hunt for, uh, Kansas. I didn't draw Kansas. So we're actually going to Missouri, which has over the counter tags as well. So. Wow. Tell us a little bit. That's all I've got so far. Tell us a little bit about elk in Montana. I know, you know, there's a lot of guys that look to go up there in general and guys can do it with public land. And of course there's private land as well. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, the, the, the whole challenge with Montana is, is the, uh, there's not as much public land as you would think, you know, I mean, it's the last best place. And the thing is with our state is it's prime, prime ranch land, which means a lot of big ranches. And so the elk hunting on private ground is probably world class. Phenomenal. It's probably as good as anywhere in the world. I mean, it's, it's just fantastic hunting. Um, the public land is, is really good as well. It's just more difficult because of the access, you know, issue that you don't have the money for access. That means you're going to be competing with a lot of other guys. And, um, it's, again, it's world class hunting too, but sometimes it can be frustrating, especially as, as more trail access is, is, uh, uh, closed off and, um, you know, everybody's kind of starting from the same point.

So, you know, we're, we're definitely going through some, some growing pains as, as far as access goes. Well, uh, tell us a little bit about the trail, the trails being closed. When do they start doing that? What's the reasoning and, and how far they've taken it? Yeah. It's just like in, in the forest or the BLM. I mean, you know, there, and, and I get it. I kind of see both sides. I mean, there's nothing more annoying than, you know, thinking you have a basin to yourself and all of a sudden you have a four wheeler comes running right up through the middle, you know, so I kind of understand both sides, but we have a lot of wilderness study areas and things like that that aren't technically wilderness, but sometimes they end up being managed like wilderness. No, we have those down here. It's a pain. And so they just are closing off.

There's more and more trails, you know, like the forest service a few years ago, you know, it used to be that you could ride a motorcycle, you know, like a little, you know, trials type motorcycle. And the way the forest service used to manage was that the whole entire forest, all trails were open unless it said it was closed. Yeah. And in one fell swoop, they changed that law to where all trails in the forest are closed unless it says it's open. Yeah. Yeah. So that basically closed 90% of the forest in one fell swoop. Yeah, because, oh, we haven't got out and don't have time, don't have the manpower to go post them open yet. So they're closed until we get around to doing that. Exactly. So frustrating. I mean, on and on. So that basically cut it down to about 10%. And then every time that you cut or cut or limit that access or control that access, that

just pushes every, everybody has to start from the same spot. But a lot of times around Bozeman here, the trailheads, I mean, you can't even get a parking spot at the trailheads. So you'll have, you know, I mean, you can have upwards of 100 guys, you know, leaving the same trailhead. And that can get pretty frustrating. It's important to have a good pair of boots on a hunt like that. A pair of tennis shoes slash boots. Yeah, some of your quick summer hikers on for running, getting the head of the pack and then hitting the ground. For sure. A quick lace system to untie and put on your other ones so you can outdistance them. So speaking of that, what do you guys got for anything new? Anything new kind of coming out this year? Anything new you're excited about? Yeah, we actually do. We have our new guide outsole. We call it K73 that we came out with.

And so that's on all of the guide series this year. And that's, you know, it's the old Cape Allen pattern. So the tread pattern is the same, but it's a little bit deeper, a little bit more aggressive tread, better heel, you know, for heel breaking downhill, more solid construction. And then again, we have control of that compound. And so we, you know, we kind of settled on 73 durometers of hardness in the rubber, which is just the, it's the, just the sweet spot as far as good durability, but a little bit softer. So it has really good grip. I think Jason runs 73. We're excited about that. I think Jason runs 73 durometers on it and pressure in his tires and his four-wheeler. Is that right? You're speaking a language I don't even know about here, Jim. It'd be like me telling you this track's a seven-foot thin bear. Thin, skinny, seal, seal, star bear. Tell us, tell us what it means, Jim.

What's 73 and what is that? It has to do with, I guess, the rubber hardness, but you want it to not be too hard that you're on skates, but you want it to grip stuff, but not wear out and be too soft. Exactly. Exactly. And that's the challenge. And then you have thermal, you know, properties that come into the rubber as well. Like, does it, does it hold those, you know, that elasticity at colder temperatures or is it, you know, does it, does it actually melt? Yeah. Does it get softer when it's hot? You know what I mean? There's all kinds of things that come into play there. And then you run into, you know, because we sell to the industrial side as well. So then you run into electrical hazard. Is it, is it conductive? Is it, you know, electrically insulating? I mean, there's, there's a lot of different things. Steel toes are out. Steel toes are out.

Well, tell me, is this on, is this on the website yet? Or, I mean, I'm not seeing it. How do I find it? We just came out with that this year. Yeah. And it's anything that has our guide, our guide series. It's all in the K770. The mountain guide, desert guide. Those, the mountain guide, desert guide. Is there others I'm missing besides those two? There's the mountain guide, non-insulated, the mountain guide, 400, both of those. Okay. And then the desert guide as well. I got you. So it's, so it's really those three. I might try those desert guides. I've had those, both those. And, but what you've done is you've gone to the K Talon outsole versus the, I guess we call it the old guide sole that you had on there, which is what I had on mine, I guess. That's all. That's the only real thing you've changed. Okay. Right. Gotcha. Right. I love those boots. Yeah. I love the.

Other than that, the boot is just solid. You know, the same. I think you'll feel a little bit, a little bit more forgiving and definitely better traction because that old outsole, you know, was more of a, a mountaineering outsole from Vibram and, and it could tend to get a little bit hard. I mean, it lasted forever. It was like, you know, it would come in and that outsole would look like Stonehenge, right? I mean, just, I think that outsole would be the last thing to, yeah, it would last forever. So I just got a little hard. I just got a pair of those Kinetrek mountains, but what's the difference? Do I need to upgrade to these? Is that what you're telling me? Yeah. Make sure you get the K73 for sure. Okay. You might as well send those back if you just did. Yeah. Well, I've already abused us. You might look closely. They're abused.

I've already abused them, but, and those desert, tell me about the desert boot a little bit and some of this August, September stuff down here. That's all I used, Jim. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. The, the, the nice thing about the desert guide is it's kind of on our hard scrabble hiker platform. So it's above the ankle, but it's still, you know, so it's supportive, but still pretty forgiving at the same time. And then what we did is we took out the Wintex, you know, waterproof, breathable membrane. Yeah. Because those membranes, I mean, they're, they do breathe. They definitely breathe, but they never breathe as well as if they're not there. Yeah, sure. Now that's been my experience. And so on our desert sheep hunts in August and September here, when it's 95 to 105, you don't, and if it rains, you're, it's a welcome thing. You don't care if you're wet, your boots are wet. Right.

Because they're. Exactly. It's like, oh, I'll respect it. They're not, you're not needing a boot to stay dry every day. Right. You don't need that Wintex, but that's, I've used those for years and I love that. Yeah. That early season. Yeah. Before it gets cold. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah, I've got them. I found them on your website. It says new for 2018. Yeah. Looks like they're 400 bucks or so. Yeah. In the deserts. It's awesome. So, well. Yeah, and that's an exciting product for us because we, you know, we've been running that, that outsole pattern for a long time, you know, our own tread design there. And that's been really solid. And, and so I think we add this together, you know, a little bit more, more forgiving and much better traction, still having a really good durability. Gotcha. I think that's going to be a strong performer for us. Well, I think that's awesome.

Is there anything else you guys, I know you sell about everything on there. I, you know, just wondering if there's anything else that you kind of want to throw out there to the listeners, you know, and some of our people here at Epic Outdoors. You've got, I mean, obviously women's boots as well and pack boots and work boots. You know, I know I cut you off on the steel toed, but maybe you had a comment there as well. Oh yeah. We, we actually did come out with alignment and, and like I say, we don't ever want to do anything unless we can really make an improvement. And, and so I think we've come up with a, again, that's on the guide platform, but that's with a steel toe. So, and it has electrical hazard rating. So for guys who are, you know, linemen, a lot of times they have to climb poles. So they have to have a boot that's really supportive in the arches, right?

Cause they have to be able to, you know, and a tree stand guy would be kind of similar. But the pole guys climb really high, right? They're way up there. But anyway, those, that line of boot is, is really a fantastic product. It gives us the support of, of the Kennetrek hunting boot in a more of an industrial style boot that's, you know, fully certified. Yeah. Well, right on. That's strong. That's good. The only other thing I can say as far as my advice would be, you know, cause I'm getting older, I, I really feel the difference. And, and I, we sell a tremendous number of knee braces that we have in trekking poles. So any of you guys that are, you know, that are over 50, it's like, I swear it's, it's like turning the clock back 10 years, you know, I mean, it's just amazing what you can do with that. Well, and even, oh yeah, thirties or forties, it'll help longevity on knees.

I, I always pack one. I'm not in the best habit of using it all the time everywhere I hike, but I have it collapsed on my pack all the time. Because if you kill a ram with a client and you're now 60, 80 pounds heavier coming out and you're downhill, you need an extra something. You may be packing 20 to 25 pounds in your day pack, but you can get real heavy quick when you kill something and need to get out. So much, you know, that's something we always go through through our clients. So I was just wondering, Jim, do you have anything for a guy that basically broke his big toe? You broke your big toe? And Adam just crushed it. I guess Jason denounced that to the world, but it's doing good. So I don't think we need to talk about that anymore. It's healing up. It's crushed in about 30 pieces, but, but chasing your kid around the house and you end up Stub it in the door jam and that's, uh,

Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. We've all done stuff like that, but this, it happened to me a couple of weeks ago and I'm on them. I'm doing better. I'm out of my, he's on the man, my dumb boot. My, hopefully my orthopedic doctor's not listening, but the boot was gone at two weeks, but, um, Yeah. Yeah. Just, but no, the boots, the, my can of treks don't fit me yet because it's still rather large and it hurts. Might need an extra wide sole. Yeah. But here by August when the sheep hunt starts, I should be good to go. So it'll be a hundred percent. It'll be good to go. Yeah. A little bit painful until then. I know that's one of the worst, uh, injuries. We do a lot of orthopedic work, you know, with the VA and that's one of the, uh, the, the podiatrists that we work with, you know, on those, on those boots. Uh, one of the things they say is that, uh, that arthritis of the big toe is one of the

worst, uh, maladies that, you know, aging soldiers, uh, get, you know, after you hit 50, 55, you know, it's pretty much all, all steady downhill from there. Well, and I, I'm afraid of that just because, yeah, I'm younger than that, but, but this is probably going to be a source of. Not much. We're getting old. That's going to be a problem for me, you know, in 10 or 20 years, it's probably going to really strive. But anyway, I'm, I'm not thinking about that. Well, just remember some supportive boots. That's right. Out of the flip flops. Yeah. Or bare feet around that. I'm going to wear my Kenetrex around the house and I think we'll be fine from now on. There you go. If you'd be wearing your Kenetrex, no problem. I wouldn't have had a problem. The door jam would have had a black mark on it and that would have been it. Yeah, exactly.

So we want to, we appreciate you, Jim, coming on with us today. I know it's a busy Monday and it is for us too, but it's nice to visit and kind of catch up on things. And I just want to let, you know, all the listeners know we, we did publish a YouTube video when Chris visited you guys on how to properly lace up boots and guys are learning stuff. They never even knew it was possible. I thought you don't, there was only like two ways to lace up boots, but I'm, I'm learning there's more than that. So. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. There's a lot of things you can do. Yeah. It's huge. It makes a huge difference on how boots fit, fit a guy and, and where and the pressure it puts on your feet and whatnot. So anyway, everybody, you know, go out to the Epic Outdoors YouTube and check that out. And, and, and again, Jim, Jim, we wish you, you know, the best of luck this year. You too.

Thanks very much for having me on. Thanks a lot, Jim. Appreciate your time. You bet. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.