EP 95: All about Knives with Outdoor Edge Knives, David Bloch

You don't want to sharpen the whole shoulder of it because it's just a lot more metal to remove. Go to get my knife out of my pack and I realize it's an old knife that has not been sharpened in a long time. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey everybody, welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast for this week. Today we're going to be talking all about knives. And we've got Mr. David Block on the line and he is the founder and president of Outdoor Edge Knives. So we're looking forward to that, but before we get into it, we'd like to thank Under Armour, our title sponsor of the podcast. Appreciate all that they do for us. They've got some amazing products. They've just released their new line of clothing for this year. If you haven't tried any of that, get on their website and get your hands on some. That's one that we tested out earlier this year. Jeff and I here in the office took a bunch of the new Raider gear. We took it out to the car wash, tested it out, and it was pretty incredible how that performed. I was definitely impressed.

So big shout out to Under Armour for bringing you this podcast. Also, there's one thing I am super jealous of right now. John just got a brand new spotting scope. And I'm like, ah, I wish I was driving up to get one tomorrow. And I was actually contemplating driving up to Tremont to pick up a scope in the next couple days. Well, I called Kent's Optics and they got such a good selection. But I didn't know exactly what I wanted, but I did know a price range. And so I just talked to him and said, hey, here's what I want to spend. What are my options? And so he went through a bunch of different options. I ended up getting Swarovski 80 millimeter spotting scope. I didn't get the one that accepts the BTX eyepiece. I've been asked after I posted on Instagram, hey, no BTX? So that's not in the budget this year, but we did find this other one that was in my budget.

And for me, it's like Christmas, man. That thing came. And, you know, I'm setting it up, looking out in the parking lot already. So tell me about the process of getting that scope. I mean, I heard you were getting one and then all of a sudden it was here. Oh, yeah. I called him on Wednesday. It was here Friday. Okay. So, you know, and I don't know. I didn't do a lot of. So I knew I wanted Swarovski. I've got Swarovski binoculars and I wanted a scope.

And so I just called him and said, hey, what do you got? And I did consider some others. There were a couple of Zeiss scopes I was looking at. I mean, he's got every brand there is. And, but anyway, I was looking at, had my eye on the Swarovski. And so I got that. And, yeah, he had it in stock. Everything we talked about, he had in stock. So every scope that I was interested in or wanted, he was like, yeah, I'll put it in right now. Wow. Anyway, and I was going to get a tripod from him. He had the scope in the mail before I could call him back and say, hey, you know, let's throw a tripod in there. I need to get a tripod from you too. So he's like, oh, that already shipped. Wow. So it was awesome. But, yeah, if you want to go check him out, kentsoptics.com. Chris, give us the phone number. Phone number for those guys is 435-257-7014.

And like we've said, they've got one of the biggest in-store collections of optics that you've ever seen. Anything from Swarovski, Zeiss, Nightforce, Sig Sauer, Black Diamond, Vortex, just pretty much anything you can think of. They've got it. A huge selection. If you don't have time to go into the store, give them a call, check online. Like we just said. Yeah, most of their business is not. They're in northern Utah, and most of their business is just, you know, guys calling in and ordering over the phone and then getting them shipped out. So the nice thing is they're awesome guys. They're just fanatical shed collectors and shed hunters. Well, if you have any questions, you can shoot them by those guys, and they can answer them knowledgeably because they're out using those optics. So definitely give those guys a call if you're in the market.

Anyway, let's dive into the podcast today with our guest, David Block from Outdoor Edge. David, how are you doing? Good. Thanks for having me on the show. So we'd just like to start by letting our listeners get to know you a little bit more. What's your background? Where'd you grow up? Tell us a little bit about yourself. So I grew up in Paramus, New Jersey, and grew up back east, and basically our family was a skiing family. And my dad was a doctor. He decided he always loved Colorado and learned to ski in Colorado when he was an intern. He basically packed us all up when I was 17 years old, and the whole family moved out west and settled in Colorado. And I live outside the Denver area in Morrison, Colorado, and I'm here to stay, love Colorado, love the outdoors. And yeah, Colorado is very much home to me. Was it a big change for you going from the east to Colorado?

When I moved out west, it was 1977. And it was, you know, the Denver area wasn't quite as developed as it is now, so it was a different landscape. It was, I like to refer to it as Denver was called a cow town back then. And it's really changed. It's become very, very cosmopolitan. But back then, it was, you know, family wasn't quite as tight. It was people were kind of moving in from different areas, and it was a different vibe. But, you know, as far as the outdoors and the mountains and Colorado, that's why we moved out here. So there's no looking back. So I was 17 at the time, and culturally it was a change, but I ended up fitting right in. And again, no looking back. I just love being here. So you kind of mentioned hunting a little bit. So did you grow up hunting, or was that, at what point did you get into more of the outdoor lifestyle? So that's a great question.

I actually did not grow up in a hunting family. Grew up loving the outdoors. As a kid, I went through all the Cub Scouts and Weeblos and Boy Scouts, and my love of that was going on a camping trip every month during the summer months and getting to, you know, learn responsibly as a little kid how to handle a knife and how to open a knife, close it, hand the knife to another person when it's open, and how to use a hatchet. So all this kind of basic camp skills and etiquette of a knife. Knives fascinated me as a young boy. I have an older brother, two years older. We collected knives as kids. My grandfather also was a big influence. He was a big knife collector and a big outdoorsman. More of a fisherman than a hunter. All his buddies hunted, and he actually shot his first and only buck and decided it wasn't for him, but he was a big saltwater fisherman.

So he didn't really take to the big game hunting, you know, tried it once, gave it up. But just the love of the outdoors has always been in our family, just not a hunting family. So I didn't know anybody that hunted and never was influenced by anybody that hunted. After I moved to Colorado, I'm sorry, before I moved to Colorado, I did a lot of summer camps too with the scouts and whatnot. And at 10 years old, I learned how to shoot my first .22 at this summer camp. And it was a real sports-oriented camp, and you had free time. And they took us to the rifle range one day, and I just fell in love with shooting a gun. And at free time, I spent every single day of my free time at that rifle range. So other kids would go play basketball. I would go to the rifle range and shoot. And at 10 years old, I was the first 10-year-old at the camp to reach the NRA status of marksman first class,

which is basically a .22 target rating system, and hit that level. So it was kind of a cool accomplishment for a young kid. I just loved it and just shot a lot. And then the next year, I went to another camp that they charged you for the bullets, didn't have the money to buy the bullets, so I went to the archery range every day. So I just fell in love with shooting guns and bows. So where this ties in is I think I was 21 years old, and a buddy of mine showed me this ad for a compound bow. I was like, oh, this guy's selling his bow. And it's like, yeah, bows have really changed a lot over the years. And I used to love shooting a bow as a kid. So I went and bought this compound bow. I got some bow hunting magazines and basically looked at all the products in these magazines and always loved knives.

And I was working with actually my brother was working with a martial artist that made handmade push daggers. And I looked at that T-handle knife and I said, you know, that's something that probably could be used as a hunting knife. So that was really the start of Outdoor Edge. That was kind of the brainchild for me, not ever skinning an animal or using a knife, combining something that was used for self-defense and applying that as a skinning knife. And I actually met with some taxidermists and hunters and kind of developed the design. And I always had the entrepreneurial spirit, I would say. Always wanted to design or invent something that had never been done before. And it ended up being a knife. So my background through college was I went to Colorado School of Mines for Engineering, studied mechanical engineering and metallurgy.

And this knife design that I came up with was basically my senior design project in school. So it was really a different approach for a hunting knife, skinning knife, and something that I had never really used. I just got, you know, feedback from, you know, hunters and taxidermists on this knife. And to explain that knife, it's the first product that Outdoor Edge launched. It was called the Game Skinner. And still in our line 30 years later. Basically a T-handle. So the idea is that you have a pistol grip. So it allows you to cut with a straight wrist.

And then so you don't have to bend your wrist. Also a nice feature is it cradles in between your fingers so you can open your hand. You know, with the normal knife, you always think of all the times you set down your knife to feel the hide and use both hands. With this, you can basically use both hands without setting the knife down. And then I went to a sports show. There was a custom knife maker made gut hook skinners. And he was at the show cutting leather with this gut hook. And then I looked at that and said, wow, let's put a gut hook on top of it. So combining the kind of Alaskan Ulu, the T-handle push knife, and the gut hook together in one, came up with a new knife design that really no one had done before.

Filed a patent on it. Made it my senior design project. And graduated college without a job. And basically decided, well, let's start Outdoor Edge. So that's kind of the story of how I got into the knife business. That's pretty amazing that this was your first business venture. I respect that a lot. That's pretty cool. Yeah. And 30 years later, you've still got that same knife in your lineup. That's amazing as well. Yeah. I really feel really fortunate how the stars aligned. And if you ask me now, did I think where I started, I'd end up where we are now. Never had a clue. Just didn't know any better. I started the business when I was 24 and didn't know really about business. I always enjoyed sales and marketing and whatnot. Studied engineering formally in school, but just started out as kind of a one-man band, you know, classic, you know, startup company.

And, you know, to tell you the story, I went to school in Golden, which is the home base of Spyderco knives. And I drove by Spyderco every day home from school. And also in Longmont was Western Cutlery. So there were a couple knife companies close by. So as I developed the design, I looked into U.S. sources to make the knife. And that really didn't work out. I reached out to a company, Alcas, at the time. And they said they basically, well, okay, we'll make your knife for you, but we'll make it in the summer when we're slow and we won't be able to make the knife at any other time of the year for you. And it's like, okay, well, that doesn't really work. And the tooling cost was expensive and the minimum quantities were high. Anyway, so one day I walked into Spyderco, met with Sal Glasser, the president of Spyderco. And he really mentored me.

He really opened the door for me to come into the production knife business. He basically, kind of a father figure to me and asked me, like, so you want to get in the knife business? And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me, tell me, tell me, tell me how, tell me how. And it's like, well, how are you going to market it? Well, I go, well, take pictures of the knife and send it out to magazines and send out press releases. It's like, it's like, well, pictures cost $5 each. And, you know, this costs this and this, this is that. And it's like, okay, yeah, yeah. Tell me, tell me how to do it. Just, just, just, just send, refer me to the factory to make the knives. So long story short, he, he, uh, it was a really interesting conversation. And him, like, just trying to impart on me how hard it was to do. And, um, he, he did refer me to, um, a very competent manufacturer in Seiki city, Japan.

And, and, um, basically started the development process and debuted the game skinner in 1988 at the, uh, shot show in Las Vegas. So, um, I went to the show with, uh, with four prototypes and, um, the 10 foot booth and, and the rest, the rest is kind of history. Um, I'll share another kind of funny story is, is, uh, my first retail show was the Minnesota deer classic. That was basically a month after the shot show in 1988. And I went up to, to Minneapolis to the sports show and I set up a booth and had the game skinner for sale. And this guy comes up and goes, well, what do you, what do you do? And I go, what do you, what do you mean? He goes, what, what do you do for living? And I said, well, I have this knife that, that I'm selling and, you know, I have Dr. Edge and I'm selling this knife. And he goes, so let me tell you, you can't make a living at that.

And it's like, I said, okay, well, I think I'm done talking to you. That's kind of what I'm doing right now. Yeah. I kind of like, quietly said, well, like, okay, well, I don't want to talk to you anymore. You know, you're like crushing my dream. So, uh, and, and, and, you know, in all, in all fairness, he was right. I couldn't make a living selling one knife. So, so, uh, I made another model and another model after that. And it's all, it's all about product development and design. And, and, you know, here we are 30 years later with, with 140 different, uh, unique models in our, in our line. So it's, um, it's been a very fun and exciting ride, um, since those early days of the startup. So did you file your first patent before you started your company and before you were graduated? I, I did. I did. I, um, I basically developed the design as a senior design project from all the technical

parts of the strength of the materials, the stress analysis of the metal, where it came to a narrow T post, like when, when that metal would break, you know, how thick we had to make it. So it kind of tied in basic engineering principles into, um, into the school project. And also was in the meantime, worked with the Japanese to, to put it into production. And then also, uh, uh, worked with a local patent attorney to, uh, file a utility patent on it. Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's amazing. We've been a part of, you know, a couple of, of, uh, you know, registering trademarks and things like that. And just that process can be overwhelming. Um, sometimes it's better if you don't know what you're getting into, you know, before you do it. Um, some of them it's taken, you know, years to get done. So kind of. Yeah. Intellectual property is a very deep and, um, and costly, um, process.

And as we all know, attorneys are, don't come cheap and they do come cheap. They're probably not good attorneys. So, um, and I've worked with great ones. I got to say our current IP attorneys are, are some of the best attorneys I've ever worked with and, and, um, gone down that road with, uh, you know, less than, less than, um, excellent, um, attorneys and, and, and you don't get, don't get what you're after, you know? So, but, um, but yeah, trademarks, patents, it's, it's all a very interesting process and it's really, it's really tough. It's one thing getting a patent. The biggest thing is, is, is enforcing them. It's like very expensive to litigate against someone that infringes your patent. So, um, so it's really all goes against itself where as you're trying with limited resources to start up a company and try to protect yourself from people stealing your design.

And then if they do, can you, do you have the muscle, you know, to, to, to, yeah, to, to, um, to stand up for it. So, and, you know, with the way patents work is if you don't enforce your patents, if you know of an infringer and you don't, you know, get them pursue, um, if you, if you know of it and you don't pursue for them to cease and desist, you, it can invalidate your patent. You gotta, you gotta go after them. So if you don't do anything and you know about it, you said it invalidates your patent. Is that? It dilutes the patent. It could potentially invalidate it if, uh, over time, if, if, if there's a known infringer and you're not enforcing it. Um, it's, um, you know, I've never gone through that legal process, but you know, it's basically, well, we've been making this copy for five years and you never said anything. Did you know about it? It's like, uh, yes, we did.

We just didn't want to fight you on it. It's like, well, your patent, it does weaken the patent itself. So what, uh, you talked about being a collector, what other, uh, you know, knives were you into or what, you know, what are some of the, your prize, you know, knives in your collection? Oh boy. I, I, I love them all. I really do. Um, so I, so I started out collecting more, uh, production knives and more, more design. You know, that's the cool thing about knives. There's, they never end. There's thousands and thousands of knife designs and, and it's a very easy kind of industry to enter. So there's so many different brands. I mean, there's the major players, but knives are, um, they're just so open-ended. They've gotten so specially like there's one knife show a year, um, in Atlanta called the blade show. It's put on by blade magazine and you have no idea all the knives and makers.

And, and as, as knives evolve, there's brands that I mean, I've been doing knives for 30 years. I, um, I'm amazed at the newcomers in the market and the new designs and, you know, more, more fiction auto type knives, more like a knife nut type designs. So different handle, different, different blade. They're not, they're not all that functional, but they're cool. It's, it's more of the cool. Almost like a little piece of art. Yeah. Some of them, some of them are truly art where you don't use them, but there's, um, the word is really mid tech. And mid tech refers to, um, someone with a machine shop with the CNC machine, um, you know, being able to computerly computer control computer machine, um, you know, different geometry and, and the designs are just, they never end. It's, it's, there's some really crazy stuff out there and that's kind of like small batch

runs where, you know, having something unique and different. Whereas we're a production house and we, we do things that are very mainstream for everybody. Um, whereas, uh, the mid tech market is trying to come up with something unique and different that has its own flavor. Wow. But, um, it's kind of a cool, don't really follow, don't really follow that trend. So I've got a couple other just geeky stuff to ask you, but, uh, you know, of like the, uh, I've done a little bit of collecting of, of the case knives and, and, you know, those type of pocket knives. What, tell me if you know, on, on that kind of a, you know, the collector's stuff, what, you know, what are some things to look for if, if you like, if you're into that and what are some of the top brands that you think are collectible and that, you know, it's, if you want to get into a hobby that way.

No, very, very, uh, good question that, um, you know, really it's, it's, I think when it comes to knife collecting, it's really what, what floats your, floats your boat. So I know a case is really a knife line that's, you know, it's American classic. They're still made in Bradford, Pennsylvania. Um, and they, they basically, their business model is to put out, um, short run, limited run, um, productions with different, different blade shapes, different handle materials. And, you know, that's a, that's a whole thing in itself, the, the case collectors. So, um, so for, for me, it's really uniqueness and variety, um, you know, collecting knives for, for over, um, over 40 years. Um, anymore, I have so many knives in my collection that it's, it's, it's, it's really got to be something truly unique that I haven't seen before.

So, so I've kind of slowed, slowed down, uh, over the years from, you know, picking up new knives. I know when I started in the business, when I was younger, I would, I would go crazy buying knives and now it's really looking, looking for uniqueness. So it's really, there's no, there's no answer. Uh, there's no correct answer to what, what you should collect and, and, and whatnot. Um, there, when you get to the custom handmade market, there are very desirable makers that become quite popular and, and they create their own market and their own resale market. There's some makers that are so popular that if you buy, you know, bought the knife at this time, they, they do appreciate and value. So, you know, for me, a collector's item is something that I, I buy it because I love it and I don't resell it, but there is, there is a resale market with, with certain makers

and certain, certain knife designs. So, so just, just like anything, just like collecting coins or stamps, like some, some appreciate and some don't, but it's all, it's all the enjoyment for the individual of what, what really excites you and what's really fun to, to own and, own and collect. Yeah. Well, and for me, it's like, you know, something that I think, I mean, I've got a knife for my grandpa and that, you know, that means something to me. And so I think, well, that's something that I can pass on and it's, it's not, you know, depending on which end you're on, you know, it's, it's not huge investment, but you know, I can hold in my hand something that he, you know, gutted a fish with or, or, or, you know, gutted a deer with. It's kind of cool. It's, it's, you know, you know, the stories that that knife has to tell, has to tell, I agree with you, you fully.

It's, I have some knives, I think before you asked me what, what are my favorite knives to collect and reuse and whatnot. I have a lot of knives in my collection. They're very simple, simple knives, but the story behind it, you know, really makes that very special to me. And then I have some, you know, more expensive knives that, that don't quite have the same meaning as a, as a much more simple knife that, that really tells a story, like you said, like your grandfather's knife. How about like antique knives? Is, is that, do you have anything of, of that that's like old in your collection? I have some, yeah, I have some old, old military knives. I have a French sword bayonet, which is from the 1800s. That's, that's really super cool. And I kind of, kind of get excited about the old, old military knives.

So, not a, not a whole lot of antiques in my collection, but, but yeah, that's, those are the ones that I do have are generally old, old military knives and daggers and bayonet type type knives. Well, cool. Thanks. Thanks for answering my, my geeky questions on that, but I don't, it's just fun. It's another hobby, you know, and something you can share with your kids and your, your family and whatnot. And so. Yeah, no, like, and again, it's just going through phases, you know, like I, I went through a switchblade period where I was collecting switchblades. So then I accumulated so many, so many different switchblades and then I move on to some, something else. Yeah. There was a time where I was really into mother pearl handle knives. So basically, you know, mother pearl, like from the seashell, the white, white pearl and knives that had that in the handle scale.

And so I was collecting mother pearl handle knives for a while and, and yeah, it's. What are some other niche categories that, you know, that maybe phases you went through?

Good question. I'm trying to, trying to think of it. It could be a long list. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's really, it's, it's really uniqueness. I was always looking for a knife to have. Something that's different. A unique design for a unique function. So it's not really, you know, I mentioned pearl handle knives and switchblades as categories. So it's more like, you know, what is unique about that knife that, that makes it different. And that's probably comes from, you know, your engineer type background too. You know, you're looking for something that's different, innovative and, you know, yeah. That's cool. Yeah. And really it comes down to, to function. You know, there's a lot of really cool looking knives. If, if it's not really a useful tool, it's, it takes some of the sizzle out of it for me. So, yeah. I've fallen into that trap.

I went to this custom knife maker at one of the big rodeos last year and it just, it was full of these beautiful knives that had these custom handles and the Damascus blades. And so I ended up buying too, cause they just look so cool. And I get home and they're basically worthless. Just, just, it won't hold an edge and, you know, they look cool, but I learned my lesson. Yeah. I call them, I call a true collector's item is something, you know what it collects? It collects dust. Cause you take it home. And you never use it. That's what it collects. It collects dust. I got, I got a few of them sitting at home. So the only use is cutting open bells of hay.

Exactly. Exactly. So if you talk about, it looks like you're, you've, you've got several other products that are not, you know, not knives. What's your favorite? And talk about the, you know, the process of getting into something that was kind of outside of your wheelhouse if you just started with knives.

So, so knives are always my, my passion. And it really comes down to, again, innovation and building a better mousetrap. You know, as, as an engineer, I say engineers aren't really inventors. We kind of take what's out there and we, we make it better. So I, I don't really call myself an inventor, although I hold a number of patents and, and, you know, really have unique designs. I'm just, just really trying to, to innovate and try to come up with the best solution possible for, for outdoorsmen to, you know, they're going to make their job easier. And so, um, um, as far as a favorite knife, I have to say our razor series are currently my, my favorite. And that, um, I kind of mentioned before that, um, when you get into an animal and your knife goes dull, it's, it's no fun at all.

And, uh, so, so with a replacement razor blade knives, you have a, a knife that, that truly cuts like a razor blade, but is also strong. You can use it hard like a regular knife. Um, but yet, uh, you have this thin razor blade cutting edge that, um, one of the things that makes a razor knife cut so well is, is its thinness. Like anyone out there that's ever taken a fillet knife with them hunting for, for deboning or, or skinning and whatnot, everyone knows that a fillet knife cuts so well because it's thin. So that's the benefit of a, a razor blade knife. You have that thinness and, and then, um, you know, with our razor, razor light series, is that we sandwich it in, in between a, uh, stainless steel holder. So that holder gives support to the blade. So, uh, you know, razor blade is sharp and it's thin, but it's not all that strong.

So we kind of combine the both by taking a razor blade and sandwich it in, in a supporting holder. So you kind of get the best of, best of both worlds. So, and, uh, you know, a unique thing is if the knife goes dull, you can just swap in a new blade. Another thing is, you know, I, I like sharpening. So sharpening is, they call it a lost, lost art. Uh, but I, I take my replacement razor blade knives and I bring a little draw through sharpener with me in the field. And it's kind of the mindset of, of a, a meat processor. So if you look at butchers, they, they sharpen their knives once a day, but they have a steel on their, on their scabbard or their hip that they're constantly stealing the knife. So the, the story is, is never let a knife get to the point where it is dull. So a butcher is going to, going to basically cut and stop every five minutes and steal the knife.

And by stealing, you're not removing metal from the, from the edge. You're basically straightening the edge. So steel is a, is a, I guess it would do a technical word is a ductile material. It bends. And, um, that thin, fine cutting edge is, um, it moves around. So, um, it's made up of, you know, the, the edge is made up of grains and those grains can kind of fold over. I know everyone's heard the word of a, a wire, uh, uh, you know, a rolled edge or, or a wire edge. And it's very easy to take a razor sharp knife. And because it's so thin, you get a little side force on the blade. You kind of bend that final edge over and the knife isn't dull. It's just, it's just bent over at that edge. So if you take a steel, what you do is you're straightening that geometry and it goes back to razor sharp. With just a couple licks on the steel.

So you're not, you're not actually removing metal and sharpening. You're more straightening. And, um, after time and continued use, you do, you do lose geometry from that edge. So that's where, um, if you take a knife, like I've, I've heard a lot of hunters go where like, oh man, this knife was awesome. I skinned, um, four deer and I did two elk with it and I didn't sharpen it. Well, well, don't, don't do that. Even though it did it, by the time you get to that, you really do have a dull knife. And you have a knife that's really hard to sharpen because you let it go so dull. Now when a knife is razor sharp, you know that, you know, when you, when you do a skinning stroke and it just, it just peels, it goes. So when the knife's razor sharp, you're, you're actually separating the material. You're using very little, little pressure at all. And then the, the high just peels away.

Well, as it starts to go dull, you're using more and more force. So as you continue to use force and use the knife harder, the knife is going, getting duller and duller each time. Whereas if you stopped and just hit it on a steel or a very fine light ceramic, you're straightening that edge and you're maintaining that razor sharp edge. So if you do that, your knife will just hold an edge twice as long, guaranteed by, by touching it up in between, you know, in between, uh, not skinning strokes. Again, every, my rule is kind of every five minutes, just touch the blade, even though it's sharp and it's working, touch that blade. And you'll be amazed how much longer the knife will hold up. So that's, that's something new I learned today is I, these replaceable blade knives, I had no idea that you were still sharpening those.

So, I mean, I guess that would cause them to last quite a bit longer if you, if you maintain that blade that's already on there. Is that correct? If you, yeah, if you look at the blade, we use, uh, you know, one of the reasons they're so sharp out of the box, we use a more acute angle on the final cutting edge. It's basically a 17 degree angle, which is much more narrow and acute than a standard knife. Most standard knives use about a 20, 22 degree angle. But with the thin razor, you're, it's much easier to grind a more acute angle. And because of that more acute angle, it can, it can, you know, roll the edge or, or bend that much easier. So if you just touch it up, it, it really, um, it's, it's so thin that it's so easy to sharpen is my point. So, uh, so you kind of have both choices. If you want to just put a new blade, put the new blade in and you got a razor sharp blade.

If you, if you do touch them up, you you'll find that you'll hardly ever replace, uh, replace the blade. So, so I might be losing some spare blade sales by this, but I do, I do encourage, uh, people to try and touch up your blades and at least tune them, you know, carry a little, uh, stick sharpener or draw through sharpener with you. And, and you just use the fine, the fine ceramic and just touch them up and you really will hardly ever replace your blades. One of the things I've always kind of, uh, wondered is how do you get that angle just right when you are sharpening in the field? How do you know you've got the right angle on that to maintain your knife? So, so the, so the, I think I said before that sharpening really is a lost art. So, so there's three rules of, of sharpening and the three rules are angle, angle, and angle.

So, uh, so my point there is it's, it's all about the angle and it does take, it does take technique to learn how to maintain that angle. Um, so, um, you know, in a podcast kind of, kind of tough to explain the sharpening angle. It's, it's basically, um, a 20 degree, um, is generally a 20, 22 degree works really well. The fact that, um, our razor blades are, are ground to 17 by putting a 20 or 22 degree on there. It's kind of an offset. So you're just touching the very outside edge. So you're just taking off a very little amount of metal by, by making the edge a little wider. Um, and that's generally how sharpening works. You don't want to, you don't want to sharpen the whole shoulder of it cause it, it just, it just takes that much more effort. It's a lot more metal to remove, but, um, you know, no one has a protractor with them or, you know, an angle guide, um, for free hand sharpening.

So, so what I suggest if, if you're not really skilled in sharpening is, uh, is get a kind of preset angle sharpener. So we, we make one called the, uh, Sharp X and it's basically, um, two sticks set at a preset 22 degree angle. And you basically just draw it through the sharpener. So there's really are a number of sharpening devices out there with a preset angle that kind of take all the, all the guesswork out of it for you. Um, but to do it, do it yourself in the field. It's just, just a technique you need to develop over time. Well, that, that razor light is, is my favorite knife. In fact, I carry one on my, on my pocket. I got to tell you a funny story I had. Um, I was a scout leader as well for, for years and years. And one of my old scouts is, you know, graduated from high school, getting into college and trying to raise a little bit of money. And he was a knife salesman.

And, you know, that's what he started to do. So anyway, hit me up to, to do a presentation. And I was like, sure, come on by, you know, and, and, uh, part of his presentation was he would take, took out a huge rope and put it out on the table. You know, and he said, okay, do you have a knife? Pull it out. I just, I just happened to have that razor light. And, and I just switched the blade. And so he goes, okay, cut through this. And it was like one smooth, but, you know, it was like going through butter. And he just, he was like, oh, well, that's a pretty sharp knife. And it took the wind out of his cell. It totally stole his thunder. And I kind of felt bad. I love it. I love it. So, and, and his knives were great, but, you know, for a set of six, it was like $400. And I was like, yeah, pretty quality, huh? And he just, he didn't even know what to say. That's funny. Yeah.

No, there, there's basically with our razor blade knives with that thin razor in the, in the, you know, the sandwich holder construction, it cuts unlike any other knife out there. It's, it really is amazing. You know, one, one thing for cutting, cutting up games, skinning and processing game is one thing, but, um, just as a general everyday Gary utility knife, it's, it's just a great knife. It cuts so well. Yeah. My, my favorite part about it is the durability, the strength of it. Because when I first got around these razor blade knives, they were these super thin and awkward connecting blades and we'd get cut in an elk. And of course I'm the camera guy and I'm always off to the side. And every single time we cut up an elk without fail, we'd have a blade break and it would fly toward me. And it was just, it got to the point where I hated replaceable blade knives.

And I, I didn't like to stand around anybody that was even using one. And then, uh, last year Jeff pulled out the outdoor edge and it was a, a totally different story because all of a sudden you've got a blade. That's not going to break on you. So that, that to me was a big deal. And I was immediately sold on the knife. Um, and I don't know if that went into the design when you actually designed the knife. Was that one of the main factors is like, how do we keep this from breaking? Yeah, it, it absolutely did. So, um, so, and, and, you know, with that being said, I just want to give, give credit to, to Havalon for, for really launching replaceable blade knives and, and popularizing them with hunters. Um, you know, Havalon makes a great product. Um, it just does, does have some limitations.

Basically Havalon is, um, their, their background is, is they are a medical supply company and they basically, um, came into the market with, with scalpel, you know, surgical scalpel blades and made it into a folding knife. And, uh, I know the founders of the country that they weren't hunters, but they, they came up with this product that the hunters just, just kind of went crazy over. So we were at a time in our company where we noticed a little bit of flatness in our, in our sales and Havalon came on the seed and kind of changed the rules and introduced this basically scalpel blade. I looked at it at first and I said, oh, that's, that probably worked good for, for caping and detail work, but it's, it's not enough substance there to really go to work. And, and, and, you know, keep around a burr on an, on an, on an elk and go in and twist and try and really work, work hard.

So, um, so, so, uh, over the years we basically saw their line grow. And as we, as our sales went, went somewhat flat, Havalon made a big deal. I could go to a sports and warehouse or Cabela's and, and, and I noticed their assortment kept growing with more and more models and more and more space on the shelf. And I'd go into hunting camp and guys would have Havalons with them. And I said, well, this is something that we need to, to get into. And again, I kind of told you about me too. It would have been really easy for me to come up with a, a scalpel blade. And, and, and, you know, one of the, the two criticisms that I really heard most from hunters is I got two problems with the Havalon. One, it's, it's dangerous and, uh, it's dangerous to change the blade. Uh, you basically need to flex the blade to, to get it off the holder. And then two is they break easily.

So, you know, we talked about, you know, once, once you get an animal down, you usually shoot your animal at dusk and it's getting dark and you want to get it done. You want to get out there as quick as you can. So when you're working and your blade breaks, like you said, it, you had blades fly at you or, or it flies into the body cavity. And you haven't finished gunning the animal. Where, where is that razor blade? You got to reach in there and pull the guts out. And are you going to run into a razor sharp scalpel blade? So, so really the comments I heard from hunters is, um, they showed me their battle scars. They showed me the times that they got cut changing a blade or trying to, trying to find the, the lost broken blade inside the cavity where they got cut. And, but then they said they loved them.

They said, we love this knife, but it breaks easily and it's, it's hard to change the blade. So that was really the brainchild of the razor light was, can we make a, make a knife that was strong, that wouldn't break. And two was safe and easy to, to replace the blade. So the first, uh, problem we addressed by the sandwich blade holder, um, by, by having the sandwiched stainless steel support around the razor blade, you basically have all the strength of a regular knife, but the sharpness of, of the razor blade. And then two, I came up with a lock release mechanism where you could push a button in the handle and the blade came right out. So, so really those were the two major design criterias that went into the razor light and, uh, you know, really, um, put us on the map for, for coming out with a truly functional and, and, and, uh, you know, great quality replacement razor blade system.

And again, I give all the credit to Havalon for what they came up with. We just came up with something that was new and, and improved that addressed, addressed the problems with their product.

Well, like we said, that's our favorite knife now. And just your functionality, you know, with the clip on the side, fantastic. Love it. And, uh, and so that's patented your, your sandwich, um, your sandwich design is the part that's patented, right? Yeah. Basically the lock mechanism and, and the, and the sandwich blade holder. Yeah. The fact that you can push the button in the handle to release the blade and combine with the sandwich blade holder. Cool. And so to, to, uh, if you want to, you know, listeners want to go out and look at that knife, just go to outdoor edge.com, look up that razor light and, uh, you'll see my favorite knife right there. So, um, yeah, we're, you know, talking about my favorite knife being the razor light. I think, um, the one version that I really do like the most is the new razor pro.

Uh, we came out with that just a couple of years ago and, and, um, some of, uh, the listeners out there might be familiar with the swing blade. And the swing blade is, um, it was our best selling hunting knife before we came up with the razor light. The razor light has taken over the swing blade, but the swing blade was a rotating blade knife with drop point skinning blade on one side. And then, uh, a unique gut blade on the other. It's kind of a, kind of a banana shaped curved blade. And the beauty of that blade is that it cuts under the skin. So, so it makes it so much easier to, to cut the hide open, slit down the legs, slit down the body cavity to open the animal. And one of the benefits there is that you're using one blade to open the animal and your other knife to, to skin with and cut with. So, uh, using both blades, it, it holds an edge longer.

So with the razor pro, we took that, that curved gutting blade from the swing blade and, and made a double blade folder with razor blade knife on one side and gutting blade on the other. So that's, that's really the, what makes up the razor pro and just, just really the best of both worlds. So that's, that really is truly my favorite hunting knife that we make these days. And I imagine that having the, going underneath the skin, you're, you're not cutting all that hair. That's probably saving you a lot too. I imagine that, you know, cutting through that hair dulls you pretty quick. Exactly. It dulls your knife and, and it's also, uh, you know, what elk do during the rut, they pee all over themselves. So, so you have urine covered hair getting on, all over your meat. So the less hair you cut, the cleaner your animal is. So that's another benefit to, to not cutting the hair.

Yeah. I used one of those blades once and it just amazed me how much faster it was to, to do your main cuts on the, on the hide. It just goes under and slides right up. And man, I think it saved me 20 minutes on, on one animal. Just a lot less cutting. You bet. A real, real time saver and you get a nice, clean, straight cut. So if you get a nice trophy animal, just, you get a clean, cleaner, cleaner, straighter cuts to take your cape into the taxidermist. Yeah, I'm sure taxidermist does a cleaner job of it. Yeah. You bet. They deal with more, with more shoddy work than anybody. I can think of a few that I did myself. There's been a time or two I've been out and I, I'll, I'll get the animal down and I'll get up there and go to get my knife out of my pack. And I realized it's an old knife that has not been sharpened in a long time.

And conveniently, I've always forgot my sharpener and just things like that. So I'm sure those taxidermists appreciate when you, when they get one in, that's got good, clean cuts and they're cleaned up good. Well, let's, let's get into a little bit of, of fun stuff. I'm sure, you know, you're, you're heavily into the hunting industry now. So what kind of opportunities, you know, have you been able to enjoy being in the industry? And are there any, any memorable hunts or favorite things that you've done?

Absolutely. I mean, it's been such a, such a great run over the years and just feel really fortunate to be in the outdoor industry. It's definitely a dream job and one that I've, I've, you know, enjoyed really good success in. And yeah, I just feel really fortunate for that. So I kind of shared early in the podcast that I didn't grow up in a hunting family. I didn't grow up hunting and, and basically developed this new hunting knife without ever using it. Well, when I came out with the Game Skinner 1988, I figured, well, I better, better learn how to use this knife. And I have to say, I was always interested in hunting and I just never had anyone to mentor me into doing it. And after moving to Colorado and, and developing this knife, I did get actively involved in, in hunting, hunting deer, elk, antelope.

And, and, and, you know, since then I've been, been to many, many hunts around the world. I've been to up to the Northwest territories, been to the Northern slope of Alaska, you know, chasing caribou with my bow, you know, watching the Northern lights and being at the Northern end, end of the hemisphere is really, really just an amazing, amazing journey. Just, you know, we all as hunters, you know, we love, we love the outdoors. We love that outdoor experience and, you know, the, the kill and the harvest is the culmination of that. But I, I have to say, there's been so many amazing hunts over the years that were unsuccessful, but it was just the process that being out in the outdoors and getting close to game. You know, I, I basically become a, evolved as a bow hunter over the years. I did some rifle hunting over in the past, but I pretty much a hundred percent bow hunter.

And for me, it's, it's that, it's that kid-like joy. Like when I was a kid, I was, I was always camping and enjoying the outdoors. And as we, you know, as we grow up and become adults, you know, what really, what really excites you? And, and for me, just watching the sunrise and hearing an elk bugle just makes the hair on the back of your head, just stand on that and just, just brings that kid back in you. And, and, you know, again, it's great when you, you do take an animal, but just that whole outdoor experience and, and, you know, nothing comes easy. You know, hunting, we don't hunt for instant gratification. We, hunting's hard and you, you put your time in, you put your effort in and, and it's just, it's just the whole experience comes full circle.

But when you do harvest the animal and you, you cut it up and you pack that meat off the hill and then you sit down with your family and, you know, you, this meat that you've processed yourself, you've harvested yourself, you've prepared for the hunt. And you sit down and you enjoy this delicious natural venison with your family. It just, to me, it comes, comes full circle. And it's what it's, it's what it's all about. There's, there's just nothing better. Um, also been, been to Africa a couple of times, um, you know, just amazing part of the world, amazing species, amazing animals. And, you know, I have to say, um, going to Africa is if, if it's something that, um, if anyone that hasn't done it, is interested in it, you should go. I got to say the drawback of it is you can't bring the meat home. So, um, I, I, I'm not, I myself, I'm not, I don't call myself a trophy hunter.

Um, I love the process of the hunt. So I'm not after the, the biggest rack. Of course, if, if you get a trophy animal, it's a, it's a great, it's a great, uh, it's very gratifying. Um, but, uh, you know, when you go to Africa, you truly are trophy hunting. You're going there to, uh, take animals that you're going to bring back and hang on your wall with nothing, nothing wrong with that. But, uh, I think the thing about going to Africa, like the least is that you can't bring the meat home. But so when you're there, eat as much meat as you can. Cause, uh, I think that was one of the coolest things, uh, South African tradition of the barbecue and the Boma and, you know, shooting animals and then eating them a couple of days later at the barbecue. It was just, just awesome. Just love it. That's so cool. Well, thanks for taking, taking the time to visit with us today.

And, uh, tell us a little bit about your company and the knives. Um, just looking through your, your website and your catalog. I mean, we've just scratched the surface on, on the different knives that you have. Um, you know, not, and not just hunting, we have fishing knives and bone saws and sharpeners. Like we talked about, but whole processing kits. And, uh, you know, if you really want to do it right, man, you guys got it covered. Yeah. I think we could do a whole nother podcast on, uh, game care and things like that. And we'll probably do that here in the future, but yeah, we appreciate your time today. Oh, I did have a question on that, on that paraclaw for anybody who doesn't know. It's a really cool idea where you got the paracord bracelet and it's got a little knife inside the clasp.

And, uh, I was just going to say, have you heard of anybody who forgets to take that off to get on the airplane? Cause I could see myself doing that. It, uh, it comes up in probably every conversation about that knife as well. Can you take this on an airplane? It's like you can, but you're breaking the law. So don't, but, uh, yeah, yeah. We actually took that paraclaw bracelet knife and now we make a, uh, the paraclaw watch. So it's a watch with your knife, with a knife in, in, in the band. So we started, um, very much with our roots in the hunting market and it's, it's been a fun run. And we've really stepped outside the box. And as you mentioned, jumped into different markets. Uh, we, we make an excellent line of filet knives. We, we have barbecue tools. We have barbecue knife sets. Um, I think one of our coolest new products is the chow pal. Have you? Oh, I did see that.

It looks phenomenal. So, and that's something with, I think a lot of the listeners here, anyone that's into remote hunting, packing, hunting, you know, it really takes your eating utensil to the next level. Explain, explain how that, you know, the whole product for, those who haven't seen it. I saw, actually, I haven't seen, you know, a post-production, um, version. The one that I saw was, you know, I think it was a test model or something like that, you know, before you'd, you'd actually started production on it. But, uh, explain that. Yeah, you, you bet. Yeah, yeah, we, we met, um, this year in January at the shot show and it was in the prototype stage and, um, we've had them in since July. And, uh, it's basically my, my goal there was, you know, as, again, as a scout, you know, we always had the chow kits and the Swiss army knives and whatnot.

So, my goal with, um, with the chow pal was to take a knife and a fork that they would nest together. They would join together as one unit and then come apart. So, you truly had a, a, a functional knife and a functional fork to eat with. So, there's also, you know, a spoon there on the other end of the knife. So, so you have basically a complete utensil set that's super, super thin, super lightweight, all stainless steel construction. There's also, we made it a bit of a multi-tool. There's a flathead screwdriver on it. There's a can opener. There's a bottle opener. There's a wrench inside the handle. So, um, so, you know, multi-tools are always a popular, popular item for outdoor use and, and, and, you know, handyman work use.

But, uh, with the chow pal, we wanted to have something that, you know, all in one, taking the outdoors and be a full, fully functional knife, fork, spoon, eating utensil that, again, comes together, but then comes apart. So, you have your whole, whole eating set. And it comes with a little nylon carry pouch to keep it clean and just a very cool, very functional product. Um, as an engineer, you've got to be proud of that thing because it looks like a transformer. It's pretty cool.

It, it, um, it's, uh, definitely one of the, the funnest and most universal products we've, we've come out with in our history. You know, as I say, not everybody skins deer and elk, but everybody eats. So it's, it's, um, it's allowed us to reach a much, much larger, wider, wider audience. Yeah, we just pulled that up on the website, looking at it. If you haven't seen that, go check it out. That's, I have, I can think of a bunch of hunts that I went on, backpack hunts that I wish I would have had that product right there. Cool thing about it is you, you do have a functional knife on you at all times. I mean, it's an eating utensil, but it's a great stainless steel knife blade that if you need to take out and use your knife, it functions as a really, really quality, quality knife blade as well. Yeah. Those who haven't seen it, it's not like a butter knife. It's, it's a tool.

It's a knife, a real knife. Pretty cool. And lightweight and just any really cool. Probably it's one that you see it and you, you know, instantly hear like, that's brilliant. Anyway, awesome. I appreciate it. Well, thanks for your time. We really appreciate it. And once again, we'll share the website, outdooredge.com. I think you're also available on several retail outlets and, and other online stores. You want to give us any of those? Yeah, we sell to, to, you know, some, I would say some 6,000 different retail outlets around the country. So, all the majors, Sportsman's Warehouse, Cabela's, Bass Pro Shops, online retailers such as Amazon, you know, local sporting goods stores. You know, as we've expanded the line into different markets. There's, there's more, more retailers carrying it now than, than ever.

You know, an interesting thing too is the Razor Light, great, great hunting knife, but also a great work utility knife. So, we got that into the hardware chain Lowe's. So, you can go to a, go to any Lowe's location. I think there's some 1,400 Lowe's locations around the country and you can pick up a Razor Light at Lowe's. They carry our Razor Light EDC and also our, the replacement blades and our sharpener. Awesome. Okay. Well, and we'd like to, for those of you who don't know, we've also got a custom Epic Outdoors knife that Outdoor Edge has made for us. All right. Well, thanks, David. Very cool. Great talking to you. Yeah. Appreciate partnering with, with Epic Outdoors and it's, it's been really, really cool for you guys to, to get with us and, and really enjoyed putting the Epic Outdoor Razor Light together.

And, um, that's been, been a neat deal for, for us as well to partner with you guys. So, appreciate everything. Hey, thanks. We'll talk to you later. Sounds good. Take care. Thanks. Thank you. One of the things we love here at the office is new gear, checking out new gear, finding the things that work. The best for us in the field. Um, and definitely one of the new things that we've come across. Well, I just bought a new pack. Oh, there you go. So I went with the, uh, the icon pro 7,200 from QU. The cool thing about it is, is I can get different sizes to go on my frame. So if I don't need that large of a pack, then, you know, I can get the, the, the 5,500, the 5,200, 3,200. So it's, uh, pretty versatile. So it's a, you're buying the frame and then you can attach different bags onto the frame. Right. Depending on what you want.

So it's, it's kind of a modular type system and, uh, just awesome. If you don't fill it all the way, the thing just cinches down. Awesome. And so you can get it balanced right and, and, and tighten out that extra space. Um, yeah, built on a carbon frame. One of the coolest packs. If you haven't seen it, check it out. Um, super lightweight. Uh, I remember back, I don't know, actually it wasn't that long ago, probably five, 10 years ago. Um, we're carrying around these packs and they just weigh an extreme amount empty. And so you're walking around the mountain and it fatigues you a lot more. That, uh, that Southern Utah, uh, desert sheep hunt that Jason had. Yeah. I think my pack was 12 pounds, you know, dry. Yeah. And then we were packing, uh, camera gear. So I had a tripod that was 10 pounds. Yeah. And a tent. No, my tent was, I think it was only five pounds.

So the tent was light, but you start stacking all that stuff together and you start with a pack that's 12 to 15 pounds. And, you know, you're getting above 50 pounds pretty quick. Well, and on those kinds of hunts, every pound is significant. And, and so by making a carbon frame, you eliminate a lot of that extra weight that's not needed. And they've had years to, uh, actually perfect this pack. And I love it. I had one of the first models and it was awesome. That, uh, and I, they've got one. That's even lighter than that icon pro. It's called the ultra pack system. That's the lightest one they've got. Um, so I kind of went with the medium one. Um, it's still super light. Yeah. But, and Q use reputation, obviously is very well known. They, they make great products top of the line. They use the best materials available and only the best in manufacturing. Um, and just great products.

I think they speak for themselves and they have for, for years. So if you're out looking for a pack, definitely take a look at those, uh, packs from KU. So check them out. So that's k-u-i-u.com. . um