EP 96: All About Sheep! Bighorn Sheep Q&A with Adam Bronson

Keep your focus about wanting to hunt sheep. Where there's a will, it's going to find a way to happen. Put your name in as many hats as possible. You always have a chance. You know, a lot of times we're looking at, you know, 15 to 20 years. Anything to do with Western big game.

Welcome to the Epic Outdoors podcast, powered by Under Armour. Hey, everybody. Appreciate you joining us today with another episode of the Epic Outdoors podcast. Today, we're going to talk about sheep. We've had a lot of you send in a lot of Q&A requests for bighorn sheep type topics. And that's what we're going to talk about today. Adam Bronson with you here. John Peterson's with me. And Chris Peterson with the maiden voyage in the new sound room here at Epic Outdoors Central. Got a new podcast room. Pretty sweet, Chris. Brand new studio. Yeah, bigger, roomier. And, you know, you'll probably see it on film here at some point. Chris has done a great job. So I've been working on it for about two weeks. We got it dialed in now. Yeah. Hopefully it sounds good. But before we kick off, like we always do, we want to thank Under Armour for being the title sponsor of our podcast.

They stepped up in a big way and continue to support us in all we do here at Epic Outdoors. We invite you to visit their website, their UA Hunting website, and look at their gear. You've probably seen a lot of that highlighted in our magazine. Really appreciative of Under Armour and their support of us here at Epic Outdoors. So speaking of that, I'm wearing my Raider pant right now. Yeah, yeah. I saw that. Oh. I'm trying to convince my wife that I should wear them every day. She's saying you can't wear the same pants every day. Well, they last. They are phenomenal. I need some of the solids like you've got solids. They make camo version, which I have several of. I need the solid version like John because I like to sometimes go incognito when I'm out. Sheep hunting, scouting all there, and then you don't get all the questions of what are you hunting out here? You know what I mean? Yeah.

I don't think they've ever made a pant with better pocket configuration. Cool. You put your hands in the pockets, it's like velvet inside. We're getting a little touchy-feely now. I mean, I like mine, John, but I wasn't going to. Okay. I don't know where you guys are going. Men's pants and velvet do not belong together. That's what I'm saying. Anyway, John, I guess we'll just dive into this. Do you want to read these? I think a lot of these came into you and Chris over the last several weeks as you threw this out to folks either on our Instagram or webpage or however these came in. And do our best to answer some of these questions and talk sheep. Let's kick it off with Ron. Question coming from him. Hey, guys. My question is about being able to hunt sheep on a budget.

I don't have the resources to buy a tag for anything outside the lower 48, but I would love to hunt bighorn sheep, whether it's desert, rocky, or tall. I'm just wondering if you could give me some options for the things that I can do to get a tag at some point. Also, I'm less concerned about trophy size as being able to experience a sheep hunt while I am still physically able. That's a good question. And it's one that we all have, usually, most of us, at a different phase of our life. I was there, oh, maybe 10 or 15 years ago. I wanted my first doll sheep hunt, paid $5,000 for it, maybe 15 years ago. It was a cancellation. But that seemed like $100,000 to me at that point. You know what I mean? It was like just out of college, just got a job, you know, making dirt. And that was a significant chunk. I think about it now, not that it's chump change, but I just think that was a steal.

It's nothing compared to what the prices are now. So I will throw that out there. Perspectives change. I'm not saying you're going to win the lotto, Ron, and you're going to be able to go on a sheep hunt or two every single year. But keep your focus about wanting to hunt sheep. And if you do, where there's a will, it's going to find a way to happen. But what you've got to do, you're going to have to play the draws. Because for most of us, that's the way that we're going to, at least if a doll sheep hunt, which is the least expensive of the sheep hunts to go and buy or book. If that's out of reach right now, maybe set a plan to try to make that happen somehow in the next, you know, handful or so years. Just while you said, like you got a body to do it. We all got a body, but a body that wants to hunt, a can hunt sheep hunt. That's right.

But having said that, you know, without having to go through every single state right here, there are some states that surety don't make sense with the amount of money that you have to pay or how far you are in the point system behind and things like that. Some that maybe don't make sense. There's others that make sense or so cheap that you just bite the bullet and buy a hunting license like in Idaho or something like that. You know, if you have some money to up front in New Mexico or to buy, you know, apply for a desert sheep in Texas. And cumulatively, all of these, individually, none of them are things that you or I should draw mathematically. The thing is, when we read those stats or we put them in the magazine, one in 250, one in 2,000, there's a one at the front of that. Someone's drawing that. That's right.

And if you collectively can amass enough of those sheep applications throughout your life, that's the best. That's just the best you can do. That's simply it. I don't know if you're a resident of one of the western states, Ron. That might make a bit of a difference. Even some of the lesser trophy zones, like, say, in Idaho, some of the real butt kicker units in the backcountry that have the best odds, they're still tough to draw if you're a non-resident of Idaho. The residents can draw a little bit more often and hunt them over and over. You don't kill. You can wait two years and go back again. But just be persistent. I don't know where you live if you have an ability to go to some of the conventions, like the sheep show. Again, that takes money and time and travel. So I realize some of that maybe is out depending on where you live.

But since we're talking to kind of all of our listeners here, go to the sheep show, go to the Western Hunting Conservation Expo, apply for the tags there, which has the full curl society. Maybe your state chapter of the Wild Sheep Foundation chapter and affiliates. Or if you're back east, they've got an eastern chapter and a Midwest chapter. You know, in Iowa, they've got chapters all around the U.S. And, again, some of that may not be convenient if you live in Georgia or Texas or somewhere else like that. I realize that. But where I'm going with that is you just have to be persistent. You've got to pay what you can afford every year on chances to dry sheep hunts, whether that's $50 or $100 a state, or whether that's playing all the raffles at $20 or $50 or one ticket in every one of them. If you can swallow that, I would just encourage you to do that.

And at some time, it will probably happen. If you want it bad enough, either that will happen. You'll get lucky. You'll play enough of them that something hits, lightning strikes. Or you get lucky and, you know, maybe save some money and, you know, maybe somewhere down the road your situation financially changes and you've got a little bit of money, then take advantage of it. You won't regret it. Well, with sheep, we're not talking an outlook of one to two years. You know, a lot of times we're looking at, you know, 15 to 20 years. So, you know, I'm sure $15,000, or you said $5,000, seems like a lot. Or right now, you know, what are our doll sheep? Yeah. They're around $20. You're $18 to $25, depending on where you're going. So a lot of people have got a truck that's worth $18 to $25, you know. If you plan ahead, you're putting $100 away a month or $300 away a month. It's doable over time.

Yeah. It is. It just, we all have priorities that come before sheep hunting at different phases of our life. You know, wives, children, education, you know, all of those types of things. But to the extent possible, save and make it happen when you see that light crack open. Just take advantage of it. Yeah. A perfect example of what you're talking about is taking advantage of all the different areas that you can go after. So, for example, last year we had Ryan Benson. We had him actually on the podcast last week, but he didn't have enough points to draw anywhere. And so we looked at it, but he wanted to hunt sheep. And so instead of just trying to buy something, he went and we applied him in places where he had a chance. Places that didn't have a point system. And he ended up drawing a tag. Yeah. So, I mean, it's possible.

As long as, like you said, you pursue all these avenues and try to put your name in as many hats as possible, you always have a chance. Yeah. I don't plan on drawing sheep tags. The only sheep tag I plan on drawing here soon is Utah because I'm well established in the point system. But the other ones, I have a bunch of points built up. But if and when they happen, I mean, I'm not going to stop applying. And that kind of has to be your attitude. There are some states that have gotten maybe cost prohibitive or I would drop. Like, you know, maybe a Washington or Oregon or California, especially because only one tag or up to 10%, which has been one recently, goes to a non-residence. Those are hard to justify. So there is a fine line.

You'd probably, I'd take that $100 to $200 and some of those and buy some raffle tickets and some of the statewide raffles before I, you know, probably did those. But just do it and don't give up. If you want to hunt sheep, you've got to dream. Sheep hunters are dreamers. And that's where you've got to hope to get lucky. Okay. Next question comes from Ben. Can you talk me through sheep hunting gear a little bit? I know gear on a sheep hunt is extremely important and want to know some of the things you consider to be most important when selecting gear for a sheep hunt. What are the essentials and what can you live without? What gear do you recommend? All right. Yeah, that's a great question because there's no question. Sheep hunting gear is not like antelope hunting gear or something like that.

It's very versatile gear, stuff that has a wide range of usability, breathability, you know, wicking ability, you know, warmth ratio for the weight ratio, all those types of things. Because you could be on a sheep, a desert sheep hunt that's 95 degrees. Or you could be going, you know, on a sheep hunt in the snow in November somewhere. And obviously your specific sheep hunt that you have, there are differences that you need to prepare for each one. But the biggest things to point out, I think, are gear, the warmth to weight ratio needs to be high. You want lightweight gear, especially if you're going for thin horns up north or early season hunts. You can have warm weather, but you could get nasty cold or even snow weather early.

You need to have a bunch of layers that you can continue to layer up with, you know, whether it be a synthetic base layer, merino, wool type base layer, synthetic, you know, pants, things like that. That just do not, you know, no cottons, no things like that, that are going to absorb moisture and, you know, lose the warmth, warming ability. As far as, and then they talk about boots. I've had hunters show up very recently, I might add, with a brand new set of boots. And they were Kinetrex. They're awesome. I love Kinetrex. They're a sponsor of ours here at Epic Outdoors. I use them on my sheep hunts. These boots didn't have a scuff on them. So they were brand, brand new. And I just breathed, you know, deep and I prayed that he was not going to have problems. You know, and what I mean by that is not that the boot itself, but every feet are not all the same.

Some boots like people's feet or some people's feet don't like certain boots. And you need to use your boots a lot in preparation before you go on a sheep hunt. But Kinetrex are a great boot, but you need to buy them. You need to make sure they're broke in. You address any issues, whether you get a new insole or things like that. Your boots, you live in them. You've got to be able to go every day. I can't tell you. And I know some of the 8 or 10 day backpack hunts up north or 15 day hunts. If your feet get tore up with blisters, which that can happen even if with well-seasoned feet. But if it's happening because you don't know how well these boots are going to perform with you, you've cost yourself a lot of time and money probably by having to sit in camp and dock your feet and rest and things like that. So the boots, make sure you know what your feet like.

Make sure you've used them heavily.

And make sure that they are going to be able to perform your whole distance throughout your hunt. As far as the types of gear, we're huge fans of the QU gear. They make from a base layer to outer layer options and insulation options from all the essentials to hoodies and gloves and outer layer coat. Rain gear, which is probably, especially if you're going up north or even in the Lord 48 stunt hunts and some of the early alpine rocky hunts, your rain gear needs to be incredibly light but very effective. I just got home from a doll sheep hunt in Alaska and we, in six or seven days, by the time we killed the ram and got out, it was like a half a day or so that we were not in our rain gear. And that's, you've got to prepare for that. And you've got to have stuff that keeps you warm but is light because when you're carrying it on your back,

you just can't go with heavy rubber, Helly Hanson or something like that that's just a slicker. You know, a cowboy slicker is not going to cut it. It might be effective but it's not going to breathe. You're going to sweat your guts out and it's heavy. So, can't say enough about QU gear. They make such a wide range of gear and backpacks for sheep hunting. Mountain hunting is their specialty. And when the time comes, if you draw something, whether it be a desert or rocky or you're going to plan a hunt up north, you know, you can call us here or we can put you in touch with one of the guys at QU if you want to get your stuff set up for you. But, I don't know. As far as what you can live without, just the luxury stuff can kind of go by the wayside if you're doing a backpack hunt. And, I don't know, John, I mean, you come to mind.

I can't not bring it up, John. And maybe that's just a segue. We saved this for another podcast, but. But we went, this has been 10 years ago or so, we went with Jason. And, you know, I don't think, you didn't go with this on the scouting trip in the summer, did you? No, I didn't. And so, that's part of it. We probably didn't do as good a job, John, at maybe preparing you and going through your gear as we should have. And said, hey, just get your pack ready. We're going for seven days in with Jason on his desert sheep hunt. But, and that was a desert hunt to where you had way too many clothes on that. It was September and it was like, it was my first really hardcore 10 day all out of one backpack. Yeah. That was a hunt. I'd done like 50 milers with the scouts and things like that. It's a different story. Yeah. Yeah.

You can wear a lot of the same clothes if they're well built and they're merino or synthetic. You know, if you're wearing a cotton t-shirt every day, they're going to get rank and you're going to want to throw them away every three days because out there they are. But, but yeah, we could have done a better job at communicating that. But I guess the biggest thing is, is based on the duration of your hunt. And if you have, you're going to be backpacking the full time, you generally don't need as many clothes as you think you do. That's, I will, I will, I can't overstate that. And the biggest reason for that, in my opinion, is the fact that the QU gear, whether it be the synthetic pants, the merino tops, the outer layer, the rain gear, it, it, it keeps you warm, keeps you dry, breathes well, dries quickly. And you just don't need as much as you think you have.

That's probably the biggest thing. And it doesn't stink. No. Like you would expect it to. No. After a couple of days. And, and you can wash it. And especially in those desert hunts, it dries out in, you know, five minutes. Yep. It's perspiration out there. You don't normally, if it rains, it's a, it's a blessing. And you dance in the rain for a bit. You pump water right where you're standing. And, you know, you don't care to get wet. But, again, a lot of variability on which species of sheep are going to hunt there, Ben. Feel free to call us if and when that lightning strikes and get a tag. And we can help you with, you know, the gear list specific to your hunt there. Okay. Next question. Okay. It comes from McKenzie. If you plan on getting a grand slam or full curl, would you recommend a specific order? Does one hunt prepare you better for the next? You take them when they come.

But this, this is kind of a funny story. I, I personally, not a funny one, but I guess just interesting perspective. When I started thinking I wanted to hunt sheep, you know, fortunately 20, 20 plus years ago, I started putting in for desert sheep. And I thought that'd be the first one I would hunt. And just because I'm going to start putting in, you know, you live here in Utah. It's what I grew up in southern Utah. And what we saw, what was exposed to. And over the last 22, four years, whatever, 25, I've hunted the other three and not desert sheep. So the one I thought I would get first and start putting in for it, I still don't have. Yeah. And so they're going to come when they come, when it comes to draws. And you take them when they come. But I will say there is some merit to your question, Mackenzie, in that if you have, if you're looking to book a hunt and you're looking,

most people will look at like a doll sheep hunt first for a couple of reasons. And probably one of them is financial. And we just got done talking about the cost of them. They're not cheap, but they are the cheapest as far as if you have the means to go book a hunt and buy one.

You're talking about, let's just round it to $20,000. Let's say you got $20,000. Are you going to save to that? Something you can wrap your head around. You start going to desert sheep. You start talking a cheap hunt at $40,000, you know, in Mexico or something like that. But you can go on up to buying a state tag or something like that for $60,000 to $80,000 or another state tag even higher than that. Similarly for Rockies, you're going to be $40,000 to $50,000 for a shot to go to Canada, you know. But more than that, to buy a statewide tag or a reservation tag or something like that. I guess what I'm saying is $20,000, it's a risk. You might come home with that one. It may happen. But you're probably going to find out whether you like sheep hunting or you don't after that run. Yeah. And that's probably the least expensive way to find out I don't like sheep hunting.

Or if your wife likes sheep hunting. Yeah. Or whatever. Now, if you draw a tag, that's a blessing. Even if you need to book an outfitter, you're looking at, you know, $65,000 to $11,000, depending on the species, depending on the state and the logistics to get in and out. Or you have the ability to maybe go do it on your own. But so, you know, the desert and rocky, if you're in the category that you've got to wait to draw those, then just take them when they come. The doll and the stone, you know, the cost is, you know, about double to do a stone sheep versus a doll sheep in general terms. And so, I mean, if you want to hunt sheep, you're probably going to have to go book one and buy one. Probably start with a doll sheep. After that, if you still got some money, probably look at a stone while you're playing the draws in the background.

But if you have the means to buy your hunts, I would probably say I'd still start that way. Unless you're getting to the age that you maybe physically can't go as well, then I would really put the thin horns higher than the desert and rocky. Generally, the desert and rocky is in certain places you can buy tags that are physically moderate to easier. The thin horns, not always the case. So, all sheep should be hunted. Try to be hunted earliest in your life as you can. But sometimes you can't pick when they all happen. So, going back to Ron's question, if size does not matter at all, you just want to experience a sheep hunt, what's out there? You could go to Montana. There's the Unlimiteds. It's the only option that you can buy a tag over the counter and hunt sheep every year. If you kill one, now they've got a three-quarter curl limitation.

You can't kill a ram unless it's three-quarter curl. They have quotas of usually one, two, sometimes three in those Unlimited areas. And you can do that. They're very remote areas with sprinklings of sheep. Frankly, if they were to make them a limited draw hunt, they would still have very low success. And so, they're such big, rugged geographic areas. They just figure, turn people loose. If they can find three-quarter curl plus rams, let them take them. You've got to call in quick, check it in. You've got to check that every day or so. If the quota fills, everybody's done hunting. So, it could close. Sometimes it closes opening day if it just stars line up. Other times, some of those extend all the way through the season and never fill in some of the areas. But, hey, if you're like, hey, I want a sheep tag in my pocket and I'm going. Yeah. That's a good option.

You can go to Montana and do it. That's one option. Otherwise, you look at other, like we've discussed the doll or things like that. If you're talking about the four North American bighorn species, the Montana Unlimited is the only guaranteed way you can go next year unless you pay for something else. Okay. Next question comes from Casey. I've seen rams in the desert with giant holes in the tops of their horns. It's almost like you can look inside and see the bone core. Is that normal in an older ram or is it caused by a disease? Yeah, that's a good question. And I see it a lot. It's a lot more prevalent in like parts of Nevada, Southern Nevada, California, even some parts of Arizona. But I think it has to do with the extreme heat for whatever reason. But what it's caused by is like a bot fly or something, a larva that gets up in the nasal cavity of these rams.

Is underneath the horns of a bighorn, they have a bone core. It's literal bone that extends back for, you know, on a mature ram, maybe 15 inches or so. And it's hollow, but it's vascular, meaning it's got blood flowing through it. And it's part, it helps partly serve as a cooling process. It gets blood out of the body and into the horns. But it also is connected through that whole sinus cavity. And so you'll get a bot fly that lays eggs. And the larva, we probably all killed deer over time. So you've caped your deer out and you see those big larvae falling out of a deer's back of its throat or something like that. And you're like, oh, gross. It's like a big old slug, something you'd eat on one of those reality shows, you know. But they'll get up in the bone cores of those sheep and it'll just drive them crazy. They can feel them in there.

And so they'll start banging rocks or things like that just because they've got irritation. They don't know what's going on. They just know they're being irritated. And you'll see them start wearing out concaved portions of the top of the horns, just destroying their horns. And we've killed rams like that. We've killed a couple of rams in Nevada that were within one or two wrong headbutts of losing their horn. We saw a ram this last week down in Utah. I don't see many of it in Utah, but we saw a ram this last week. We could have harvested. Big ram, probably 160 caliber, better on one side. The other side's got four inches. His horn and his bone core is gone. And so don't know the reason for that one. And it could always, you know, getting shot in the horn could cause a fracture and things like that. And in some states where you have freezing and thawing, you can get moisture in there.

The ice could freeze. It could start fracturing that way. But by and large, the greatest likelihood, especially in these desert units, is caused by like sinusitis, they call it. It's a disease that they'll get a bacteria or one of these botfly larvae in their nasal cavity. And they'll bang their head against, just trying to itch it, for lack of a better word, until they finally get a hole. You'll see the core. And then it'll start rotting because, again, they're vascular. They've got blood vessels, you know, going through it. And when it gets like that and it breaks, usually you're going to lose the sheath and things like that. So that's what's going on. It is more common in an older ram. But probably just because the condition he has is, you know, a little bit more persistent. He's had it for longer.

And, you know, usually younger rams, they don't, you know, haven't been alive as long to acquire that yet, sinusitis or botfly larvae. Okay. Cody asks, I'm thinking about going to school to become a big game biologist. I've heard you guys talk on the podcast about Adam having worked with Utah Game and Fish. I'd love to hear about how he decided to go down that path, where it took him, and what his day-to-day responsibilities were. Yep. So, yeah, I always kind of wanted to do that. I had a brief moment where I thought, oh, maybe I'll go be a dentist because I can make a little bit more money and maybe hunt as much as I really want to. But during my undergraduate studies, getting a biology degree, it's the same degree you go to be a dentist or to be a biologist. And I just, the thought of looking in people's mouth, I didn't want to do that. That's for somebody else, not for me.

So, I reverted right back to where I had always thought I wanted to do, and that was to be a wildlife biologist, mainly regarding big game, a terrestrial wildlife biologist. You know, but the species probably that I was most interested in, which is what we have in Utah. You know, sheep, deer, elk, antelope, you know, bears, all that type of stuff. And so, yeah, I got a bachelor's degree in biology and a master's degree in wildlife biology. And right out of graduate school, I did my graduate thesis work on desert bighorn sheep in southern Utah, just inventorying water sources and other habitat modeling issues with the newly reintroduced populations around the Khabarowicz units. And just by stroke of luck, about the time I was done with my master's, there was a job opening up in the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources.

I applied for it and got it in the very area I did my stuff down in Canaan-Garfield counties. And it was a great job. Thought I had my dream job. I did. I mean, it was a great job. It was just, you know, in charge of, you know, from surveys to habitat, hunt recommendations, anything, you know, that was going on in my geographical area with game species. I still did manage turkeys and lions and bears and things like that. I didn't have to, I didn't do anything with the non-game or fisheries. There's other biologists for that. But had a great job. I did that for about four years until the opportunity came open to the big game project leader, the state of Utah, which dealt with special projects, mainly the Bighorn Sheep program, other once-in-a-lifetime issues, things like that. I took that job, worked a little bit more statewide, and really, really liked it. Loved the survey part of it.

There's always part of any, I guess, government job that you're going to feel like you're a little bit handcuffed or have to go with the flow because that's either the law, the legal responsibility, or whatever. But there were a few things, of course, that I didn't enjoy as much, but by and large, loved it. I was only there a little over almost five years, four and a half plus. But before I had the opportunity to jump to the private world, I guess, to be a hunting consultant, which was not something that I ever really saw coming, aspired to, whatever, just kind of happened. And I'm sure, even though my degrees in wildlife biology were not, I guess, being used as much as they were as I was a state biologist, I'm sure it was why I was being looked at to be a consultant. I mean, I had that background. That's exactly why. I was kind of in on our scheming to poach you.

That was back in the day there. That was back in the day. And I hunted a lot. And so I hunted a lot, but I was also trained as a biologist. And so I have no regrets about going to that as a career because it's taught me a lot. It's where my, I guess, my initial or deeper, I always had an initial affinity, I guess, for bighorn sheep. My dad took me down to some southern Utah when I was a kid looking at them. But then once you study them and it just, they become so fascinating and just became, you know, part of, I guess, who I was. And to the point that once I quit the state and went to the private world, I got licensed as a guide and outfitter here in Utah and now a couple of other states to just hunt sheep more than just a couple of times in my life. So that's, and take people that get tagged. And so that's how I, that's how I got into that. It's a good career, not a lot of jobs.

I will freely, there's not high turnover in that field, whether it be with the state agencies. A lot of people that get jobs stay there for most of their life. And so there's not a lot, not a big turnover. Obviously, different parts of the state, you get to Texas and different places like that. You've got, you know, private, private ranches that hire biologists to manage all their, all their wildlife. I was, I was, I was only working for a state agency out here in Utah. But it was a, it was a good career. What would you say percentage of time spent in the office versus in the field on that job? You know, where I wasn't in the, in a city, I was in a remote town. My office was in my house, you know, which is a computer and phone.

And so I was in the field a lot more, I think, than, than other biologists that had to go to their regional office to even open their, to do their email and all that. And so overall, I would say mine was probably more 70, 30, 70 in the field, 30 in the office. Because I'm sure that there's biologists that are laughing when they hear that because they're thinking, yeah, it's more like 50, 50 or 40, 60 the other way. But, but it's because they probably report to a regional office every single day and that's where they're at. And they're, that's where they do their, their, their work there. You know, when you're, when you're in your home office, you can get stuff done when you're in the office. Cause there's nobody, you know, chewing your ear at the water cooler and they, what, you know, you're, you're just, you get your stuff done. Hey, I'm going back out.

So anyway, I think we need more people who are into hunting in those state agencies. You know, they're getting, you know, stocked up with, with tree huggers and naturalists that, that, you know, have never hunted. And so I would encourage anyone who's even remotely interested in that to, to check it out, pursue that. There's a lot more art in wildlife management than just science. There is the science part of it, but there's a lot more art and that art comes with, um, you're managing socio economical stuff. Um, you know, sportsman's stuff, uh, needs versus just the X's and O's of how many bucks do I need to breed the does on the unit? Okay. Okay. Biologically, that might tell you one thing, but there's a lot of other factors that go in and, um, you, you work for the public. That doesn't mean you cave, do everything they say. You can't do that.

There's management plans that hold you, hold you accountable for how you manage your wildlife. But it's a, you're right, John. I mean, a hunting perspective, especially in our, in our world, our hunting world, um, we like to hunt and we like to hunt a lot of different states to have a hunting perspective from somebody who's a biologist. Um, I can feel the difference when we're researching all around the West from somebody that I know as an avid hunter and a little bit more, I guess, sees things through that filter versus just a X's and O's ratios, plug a model out. This is what I'm told to do. Yeah, definitely. All right. Next, uh, question comes from another female listener, Brittany. I've heard people talking about aging rams by looking at the rings on their horns. Can you explain how the rings would, uh, specify age and how I would learn to do that? Yeah.

So sheep are a little bit unique. Most other, well, antlered animals like deer and elk, you know, they shed their antlers every year and regrow a new set. Um, sheep grow every single, they start growing and they, they grow continuously throughout their life. The most rapid growth in sheep occurs in that first five or six years of their life when they're growing, you know, they're going very, growing very rapidly. And during, and it varies a little bit by species of sheep. Um, a lot of the sheep like thin horns or some Rockies that grow, that grow in really cold environments where, um, winter is where they lay down that, uh, that rut ring or their, their winter ring when their horn growth almost just stops. And they're just literally surviving. Um, other times, like some of our deserts here in Utah and, and, uh, Nevada, you'll see streaking.

They'll, they'll, we just killed a ram a couple of weeks ago that his six, seven and eight year old rings were double rings about, you know, a half inch apart. You know, it's just like, he's still growing so fast. He's slown for the rut where they don't eat as much. They don't grow as much, but they kind of streak and, uh, there's some variation in it. But I guess the simplest thing is that, that each year of a ram's life and that, when that period of time where the horn growth, um, slows to a stop, it lays down a little bit of an indentation in a ring. And that's an annual ring called an annual lie. And, uh, you know, like when you go up and hunt thin horns up North, they, they have to be either eight years old or full curl. And that's what they're counting. They're counting the lamb tip and then every annual ring after that, right up to the base to determine the age of a ram.

So it's when that horn slows nearly to a stop and, uh, lays down a, a, an annual ring before it starts picking up heavy, heavy growth or growth of any kind. Again, the next, you know, usually generally in the spring or summer. So, okay. Next question is from Breton. I know there are some areas in States like Nevada where desert sheep and Rockies have a range that may touch or cross. Would it be possible to have a desert Rocky hybrid? Yeah, that's, that's an interesting question. It's actually happened a couple of times. There are a couple of places like in Arizona, um, where the same geographical unit, maybe the very Southern end of one of them, um, has desert sheep. And the Northern end of, of that same unit has Rockies, um, in, you know, uh, 27, 28, some of that country there. Um, likewise in, in unit 13, uh, in, in Nevada, uh, there, which is normally a desert sheep area unit.

But they did have, uh, a wandering Rocky show up down, down in that unit. Oh, eight or 10 years ago. That was a tank. And, uh, uh, the governor tag that bought one of the desert sheep tags shot that, shot that ram in a desert sheep unit. And it was a Rocky and it was a giant. It was like 189 or 80, 185 or 90. Don't want to shortchange the hunter. I know he is. So if you're listening, I don't remember your exact score, but he was a tank. And consequently, that unit from that point forward is listed in the regs in Nevada that rams that come from that unit cannot be scored officially for Boone and Crockett as desert sheep anymore. For the potential crossbreeding issues there that have gone on. So it can happen. Most of the time you're talking about, you know, very cut and dried, um, habitat differences between Rocky and desert, and desert sheep. And that's the case in most units.

But there are a few where they can overlap and that could possibly happen. Um, that one unit, um, I, I don't know of every other unit in, in the lower 48, but that one in Nevada that I recall is the only one that I recall reading specifically. If you're in the regs that these sheep may not be scored Boone and Crockett as a, as a desert sheep, much like happens with, you know, black tail and mule deer in Northern California or Oregon. You know, you get that, that, you know, line in the sand, so to speak, but it can happen. It's pretty rare, mainly because due to habitat differences are so great. So next questions from Marcus. Hey, love the podcast. Keep it up. I've booked a doll sheep hunt in Alaska for 2019. I've heard that there is no hunt as physically or mentally challenging than a sheep hunt.

How would you prepare yourself for a backpack sheep hunt from a, both a physical perspective and from a mental perspective? Yeah. So I get this question a lot from, from hunters that I take every year. Um, and, and I have to try to do as much of, uh, much of a interview with my hunters prior to them coming so I can fill them out before they get here. And I realized, okay, we're, we're not prepared. Having said that, there are easier. You're specifically talking here, Marcus, about a doll sheep hunt. There are some that are easier than others. Not all sheep hunts for doll sheep or stone sheep or desert rocky are created equal. So I, I know some that are, you're flat out somewhat easy, um, compared to others and others that are flat out, butt kickers with hardly any sheep. But, so first off, you need to try to really try to gauge where on the spectrum your doll sheep hunt is.

That could maybe be a call to us or perhaps talk with the outfitter or the hunters that he's taken there recently to get a feel for it through their eyes. You know, how many days they went into the hunt, how many miles they were putting on a day, how many sheep they were seeing, or rams they were seeing, things like that. To get an idea, okay, this, if I see illegal ram, I'm lucky and I need to kill it because it may be the only one. Or, geez, you know, it sounds like there's sheep everywhere, you know, they land you amidst the sheep and, uh, you know, or they, it's a horseback hunt perhaps somewhere, things like that. But you can never be, being overtrained or overly physically prepared is never a problem. There have been people that have come with me and said, geez, if I knew you were going to kill on the first day, I wouldn't have trained as much as I thought.

And I'm like, well, yeah, but this could have turned into a seven or 10 day grind. You just don't know. And when you have to turn that switch on and say, all right, these more moderate areas that we're, we're hunting now are not producing. We need to, we need to go hard. We need to go in a little bit deeper. We're going to stay overnight or, Hey, we're going to the backpack area from the start. You need to be able to hopefully do that. Now that's not to put pressure on you. If you are to an age or have a physical limitation, you can't do that. You just need to be frank with the people that you're going hunting with because they need to know, like from my perspective, some of the units I guide, we can go both directions. We can go deep and backpack in, or we hunt the fringe day hunt areas and more moderate to easy areas. I need to know that before the hunter gets there.

Otherwise I'm spending two to three days figuring that out. Um, and I should have just started an easier to start with, or I would, or I want to take him to the deep stuff cause he's capable. And usually I know that every once in a while I'm surprised. So be straight up if you're going with an outfitter of your limitations, but also I've had a lot more people tell me they're in great shape and they can go and they show up and they really can't. Um, and, and I realize us guys, it's hard to admit, Hey, I'm, you know, I'm out of shape. I'm a soft or you don't want to say that about yourself, but, but you owe that to your outfitter and you know that to yourself because if they take you on your, based on their word and they get you into a situation that you're in over your head, it's only going to hurt you. And you're going to choose through days on your hunt.

So be straight up with them, work as much as you can, a variety of different, um, um, a variety of different, uh, workouts. Uh, I mean, working your legs seems obvious, but working your, uh, your arms and your upper body, it all helps. I mean, you're, you're, you're carrying a backpack. I mean, if you just worked your legs only, that's part of it, but you're carrying a heavy backpack and you're, you're using muscles that don't get used except for on backpack sheet punts. I found out that I, um, you know, and so everybody that lives in around the U S is capable of working out differently. We're fortunate. We hike the mountains right here. There's nothing like that for me. I break in my boots. I wear my pack. I work, I go uphill, I downhill, I use my trekking poles. You know what I mean? It's, it's the complete package.

I realize that's, that's not, that's fairly unique and you can only use what you can, whether it's football stadiums because you live in flats of Kansas or wherever you're at, or it's a stair master in a gym or whatever. You've got to do all you can do. The mental part of it is tougher. Um, I found, um, I've had a lot of people that are not as physically prepared, but they're, you know, I'm just throwing out people from like Wyoming. I mean, they're tough guys from Wyoming and they'll just grit through it. And I would personally rather that guy that's more mentally not going to quit and he'll get it out because normally after two to three, four days, their legs will start to get back under them if they're worn out after a day or two.

Um, but I want a mentally tough person because when we need to go do something, um, if they're shot mentally, um, and I've had guys as recently as this year too, I'll be, we'll be glass in one direction. And, uh, they might say, why are you looking over there? And we're like, cause there's sheep over there. I said, well, I'm not going to hike over there. And, uh, we're like, okay, I guess we're the roads this direction. And, uh, that's an example, probably more of mental preparation than physical. Because, um, if you tell yourself something like that, um, right off the bat, it's pretty hard to overcome the physical part after that. Um, mentally, how do you prepare for that? That's the harder thing. You're either born with it. You, you have it through maybe an athletic career or something that you've worked hard for. Or, but it's a, it's a harder thing.

And particularly, particularly if you don't live out West and you don't see mountains or you see big mountains for the first time on a doll sheep hunt in Alaska and you get overwhelmed. It happens. It happens every year. We hear about it from members. We hear about it from outfitters. And it's hard. And so I would, I would say if you fit into that category, maybe you live in the Eastern part of the U S and you've never seen the mountains out West, you need to at least take a vacation, come out, hike them and, and not be overwhelmed by the, by my mountain country. Um, that sounds very rudimentary and very basic, but trust me, it happens every year. People show up to sheep camp and they're done by three days, three or four, and they just can't hack it.

And so that's part of maybe finding out that sheep hunting is maybe not for you, but at the same token, I, I would, I would dare say more people are cut out to sheep hunt than they give themselves credit for. If they just set their mind to a little bit more, work hard toward it and just don't, don't let giving up it be an option. I mean, everybody, you know, if you find a big white tail deer somewhere back East and you want to kill it, you're all in. Have that same mentality when it comes to a doll sheep, do whatever it takes to prepare. Um, you know, you're not, uh, you know, you're, you're doing different things, but, um, the physical and mental part of it is, is, you know, it's hard to teach physical. You can do something about mental. It's a tougher thing to just say, you got to get ready. You got to mentally say yourself, can you can do this? Just doesn't always resonate with people.

Sometimes some people just can't, just can't bear down and focus to that. It's tough. Well, I think your advice of getting to a mountain going on, you know, for five days, take your wife to Jackson for the weekend, putting a backpack on. I mean, the difference between Salt Lake city, the difference between hiking six miles in the mountain with no backpack and the different, and you know, and then putting a backpack on that, that has five days worth of food and clothing is, is just enormous. It is. And I realize that's, that's tough. But if you look at what some of these sheep hunts are going to cost you, um, a thousand bucks to fly to Salt Lake, spend a couple nights in a hotel, go hunt, hike some mountain country and figure out, okay, what am I, am I really prepared? And that's for the people that have never spent time in the mountains. I want to emphasize that.

I don't want to say that every sheep hunter needs to come and hike the mountain before your sheep hunt. I'm not saying that. But if you've hunted the mountains, you've hunted elk or deer out West and you love it and that you're driven for it. We talk to people every day here at Epic Outdoors that live on the East coast that just love to get back out West and out in the mountains. I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking if you've never done it and you don't, there's a lot of unknowns. You better try to, don't let the first mountain you really hike in be the one that you spent a $40,000 for a stone sheep hunter. Very good. So Harold says, do you think sheep populations in the lower 48 have become more healthy in general over the last decade or are we losing ground?

Also, what can I do as a hunter to help ensure that my kids and grandkids will have the opportunity to hunt wild sheep in the future? You know, that's a great question. And without question, as a whole, sheep around the Western U.S. are in better shape now. We are not losing ground. We're making more ground. Now, for those of you that think that's an absolute, I realize there's some that are struggling. We have die-offs. There's some issues going on here in Utah, as we speak, that weren't going on last year. But as a whole, our education has expanded so much through the research of the state fish and game agencies, organizations like the Wild Sheep Foundation that have dumped a lot of money, and all the chapter and affiliates of the Wild Sheep Foundation have dumped money into research through some of the Western universities to help understand bighorn biology,

bighorn disease transmission with other domestic sheep or goats. There's so much that's been learned and what we know now about, you know, keeping things separate. Separation is key.

Everything's better. That doesn't mean you can control, you know, sheep getting where they're not supposed to be or domestic sheep or goats getting where they're not supposed to be and keeping separation all the time. Or, you know, having issues such as winter killer, things like that. But no question, I mean, if it wasn't for state fish and game agencies and organizations like Wild Sheep Foundation, you know, and all this chapter and affiliates of that, sheep hunting would be, sheep tags are rare now. They would be a fraction of what they are now if it wasn't for these organizations of less, you know, I'll just say rounding it, you know, 30 years, 20, 30 years.

There's no question things are better now and are the vigilance of which all of these state chapters and national organizations and now state fish and game agencies are working together to, you know, micromanage sheep because that's how you have to manage them. They're not like elk. Elk will take care of themselves if you just don't kill them. They will proliferate. Sheep take intensive manage, whether it's predators, whether it's disease, whether it's winters, whether it's salting on the highway and they get taken out by highways. And trains, sheep are susceptible. They're more fragile. They're going to always take intensive management. And the more time that continually goes by, the more we understand about that intensive management. And so I would encourage you, wherever you live, Harold, to join the National Wild Sheep Foundation.

It's a great, they put out a publication four times a year called the Wild Sheep Magazine. You can read a lot about what's being done in the wild sheep conservation world within that. But if you live in one of the states or areas that have a geographical chapter, belong to that as well. Even if you live in a state that doesn't have sheep, there's something for you to do and encourage you to do that. Next one. What would you consider prime age for a trophy ram and how long do sheep usually live? Yeah, a lot of variability for that. But in general, I would just, I would generally say, you know, eight years plus would be, I mean, that's the classification of sheep. You know, has anything eight years or older as a class four ram. You know, a six and seven year old or class three ram. You know, class three to five or class two rams.

And then you got a class one as a two year old and then you got yearning. So anything eight plus sheep, it's been said that sheep are born looking for a place to die. And I give them a little bit more credit than that. However, they are more susceptible. We've just got done talking about that, whether it be to disease, whether it be to some of these other things. But that's not to say there haven't been some magnum six and seven year olds. The biggest ram we've ever guided, all right, ever was 182 and a half net was a six year old. Wow. What state was that? That was Nevada. I mean, so there are anomalies, just like in people. There are freaks of nature, just like in people that are just unexplainable, really. Um, but generally I would say eight years plus life expectancy. Again, a lot of variability based on, you know, winters, especially up north in Alaska and Canada.

It's, it's dark 20 to 22 hours a day. I don't know how, I frankly do not know how, um, in some of these mountain ranges, it's possible to survive a winter. I don't know how I'm susceptible to the cold. I know these animals have adapted to it, but that aside, I don't know how they can survive. And so a 10 or 12 year old ram is an old ram. It's an old ram. There are examples of 12 to 14 or occasional, maybe a 15 year old. I hear a various species that seems to be more rare in the thin horns. I think partly due to the really dark, long winters. Um, but having said that an eight to a 10 year old ram is just, that's a, that's, that's, that's primed up. Um, after that, their, their days are numbered for the most part.

Um, and they've got a, they've got to either dodge predators, have no winners, either just get lucky or be in some kind of an area that's somewhat secluded or they're able to grow older than that. They don't grow much beyond that. Their horns, as we talked about the annual eye, they grow less and less each year. The older they get from eight or nine plus, they just, that shrinks to sometimes, you know, a half inch or a quarter inch or even less as they get older. Uh, and that's, that's very minimal, but, uh, that's what my, uh, that's what my thoughts are on that. You talk about anomalies and, and, and you get a giant once in a while. Once in a while we hear about dwarf. Yeah, that's true. Talk about that. Um, I guess just like people as well. Um, there's conditions that, that, that, you know, humans have, you know, that, that genetically they, whatever didn't, didn't align up.

That's, that's what they're going to be. And, uh, that's happened in the sheep world. It feels like it happens a little bit more in the thin horn world, uh, than it does in the deserts and the Rockies. But I have had a few of those that I've seen. And they're like, whatever's going on there, his horns do not match, you know, what's, what, what should be going on with everything else. And their body size generally doesn't either. It's smaller as well. And so usually the only time you have to really be careful of that is if that ram is all alone. Um, because sometimes they can look really good and big and then you walk up to them and they're 50 to 75 pounds lighter. Which throws all of their proportions off their head smaller, uh, makes their horns look bigger than they really are.

Cause in proportion of their head and their body, they look big when reality, they're just a, they're just a dwarf. It's not super common, but, but it can happen. And then that's why if I'm ever, you know, if I'm ever suspect to something, I like to use the, you know, you hopefully use the other sheep that I'm seeing right there as a, as a barometer. That's not always possible, but I, I almost don't, don't, I almost ignore that in a lot of my sheep gutting where I'm at. But in the thin horn world, I've seen more examples of that than, than it seems like the big horns are the deserts. So, so we've got, we've got a quite a few more questions, but I think we'll save that for a part two and wrap up here by just thanking all of our sponsors. We want to also throw a shout out to phone scope and, uh, they've got a brand new product this year that, uh, that is shipping. It's called scoped vision.

So if you want to go check that out, uh, on their website, it's phone scope.com. That's P H O N E S K O P E.com. It allows you to, to film, uh, what's going on through your scope. So you shoot an animal, it'll, it'll get to, you know, the moment to where you pull the trigger. And then, you know, as fast as you can get back on that, uh, through recoil, you can video that right through your scope. Also would allow, you know, let's say you're hunting with a kid. You can look and see what they're seeing through the scopes. That could be pretty awesome with the kid. Yeah. Make sure they're lined up on the right animal and you could just tell them, nope, the one, one left of that or whatever. Very cool, innovative product and, uh, encourage you to maybe try it out this year.

And we'll just, uh, give a shout out to the other sponsors that, uh, we probably talked about a little bit in this, uh, podcast. Q U, if you want to check out their products, qu.com, K U I U.com. Kenetrek, K E N E T R E K.com. Wild Sheep Foundation. Adam, what's the website for them? I believe it's wildsheepfoundation.org. If I'm not mistaken. So. And, uh, last but not least, hillaberg.com slash epic. And if you could just do us a favor, go there, visit, uh, that hillaberg, um, slash epic, hillaberg.com slash epic site. Uh, we get a few brownie points. If you just go visit that site, check out their tents. And then, uh, phone scope, which we said, uh, www.phonescope.com. P H O N E S K O P E.com. And we appreciate you listening. And, uh, you know, these sponsors help keep this podcast free and bring it to you. And so be awesome.

If you support those guys and, uh, while you're at it, go give us a review. Uh, those really help us, uh, in promoting, uh, promoting our show. So if you're on iTunes, click on review underneath our show and leave us a review. If you're on Google, um, the Google play, then do that as well. Helps us out a lot. Well, I think that's it, Adam. Time to go hunt sheep. I'm out of here.